The CEO Series with Michelle Cirocco!

Speaker A: Empower your leadership journey with the CEO series. Whether you're at the gym, strolling or commuting, our impactful dialogues with world class leaders are just a click away. Immerse yourself in the minds of visionaries shaping today's most influential companies and innovations. It's not just an interview, it's a masterclass in leadership. Don't miss out. Available on Apple podcasts, Spot, Spotify and major streaming platforms.

Speaker B: Good morning, Good evening. Depending upon what part of the world you're in, if it's Friday, it is the CEO series where we explore. Explore career journeys, the trajectories, the detours. Right, left, U turns along the way. Our guest today. Our guest today is Michelle Sirocco, Chief Social Responsibility Officer at Televerde and Executive Director of Televerde Foundation. Her journey began inside an Arizona prison and carried her into senior corporate leadership, an MBA from Arizona State University, and a mission to create pathways to meaningful careers for incarcerated and formerly incarcerated women. Today's conversation from cell block to the C suite is a story of accountability, reinvention, leadership, and the power of a genuine second chance. Behind every title is a story worth telling. And with that, I will welcome Michelle. Hey, how are you?

Speaker C: I'm m. Fabulous. Rohan. Thank you for having me on today.

Speaker B: Well, well, thank you for making the time because I know you traveled quite a bit and uh, so thank you for squeezing in the time for us for you to get the opportunity to share your story with the audience. Take us back, walk us through the short version of how it started to where you are today.

Speaker C: Oh, wow. Um, let's see. It's such a. It's such a long and circuitous journey. It's. It's hard to say. Um, look, I grew up in a small town in western New York doing small town things, going to Girl Scouts and church camp and. And, um, my mom making clothes for me on the Singer sewing machine. And, um, after a horrific blizzard, my mom decided one day that we were no longer and we moved to the big city of Phoenix, Arizona. And yeah, and when I got there, I was a kid who, like I said, wore clothes my mom made on the Singer. And I wore things that I called sneakers and I said words like pop. And people, I had a funny accent and people thought I was weird. And, um, so I would say, like, with a deep desire to fit in, right? And to be accepted, to be liked, um, I kind of fell in with what I kind of always refer to as the land of misfit toys, right? Kids. Kids who would accept me and I became willing to do, um, I came willing to do things that I probably otherwise wouldn't have, just in a desire to be accepted. And so that led to kind of. That combined with a lack of role models and a lack of direction in my life, led to me being really good at making really bad decisions. Um. Ah. And I think I would say layered on top of that is I had, like, a deep desire for a better. A better space in life, um, than what my lot in life was going to have me. I wanted more. I wanted better things. Um, and I had a really, I guess I would say a misguided entrepreneurial spirit. And so combined. That combined led to the day that changed my life forever. Um, I had ultimately made more bad decisions than I should have. And I found my life looking, um, a little bit like an episode of Breaking Bad. And, uh, the day that I stood in front of the judge that changed my life forever. Um, I went to court that day. I thought I was going to be going home in a couple months. At worst, a couple years. And he sentenced me to the maximum term of seven years in the Arizona State Prison. And, um, I was devastated. I had two small children. Um, I had never known anybody who'd been to prison. I had no idea, um, what was going to happen to me or how to deal with it or what to do. Um, but I knew, you know, when I. When I sat with it and came to terms with it, I just. I knew. I just knew in my heart and I just had to believe that everything in life happens for a reason. Ah. And that's all I could tell myself on that day after I got sentences. Everything happens for a reason. You got seven years. Um, and there's something that'll happen during this course that is so important and so meaningful that it has to happen this way. And you may not ever know what it is. Um, it might be a conversation that you have with one person on the 364th day of the sixth year, but it will be so meaningful that it will change somebody's life. And that's how I picked myself up and pulled myself together and set off on prison. And when I got there, um, my counselor gave me the single best piece of advice anybody has ever given me. Um, even to this day. Best piece of advice. He said to me, he said, you know, Michelle, he said, you got to. And he said, you can do your time however you want. He said, you can spend it trying to figure out how to fit in, being part of the in crowd, playing cards, smoking cigarettes. He said, or you can use this time to turn your life around, um, and become a better version of yourself. And for me, I was like, wait, what? I don't have to worry about people who. What people think about me? Wait, what? I don't have to worry about fitting in here? Well, that's good, because I really don't. I just don't. And so I set out on a journey to, like, fix myself, right? Mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally. Like, figure out how did I become the person who did the things that I did? How do I overcome my past? How do I learn some skills? How do I. I had no education. I had no job skills. I'd only ever been a bartender. Um, and I was like, how do I figure it out? And so, uh, staying on that kind of path when I heard about this company called Televerde. And so Televerde was a company, um, that in prison, if you could get a job there, you could make money, and if you were good at it, you could get a job at the corporate office when you got out. And so I didn't really know what the job was, but I didn't care. It was in Phoenix, and that's where my children were. And, um, I knew I needed a job if I was going to rebuild my life. And so I got there. And what I found when I got there, it was a call center representing, um, the biggest technology companies in the world, um, doing outbound sales. Um, I found out I was pretty good at it. But more importantly, I found a place where people believed in me before I could believe in myself. Um, and I learned skills. And the CEO of the company, uh, pushed me harder, uh, than anybody had ever pushed me, taught me that I could do hard things, um, and gave me an opportunity. And so I took that opportunity for all it was worth, um, and I was offered that job at the corporate office when I got out as a sales executive. And, um, my mission became, uh, how could I help the company grow so that more women could have the opportunity to work in that call center that I had? And so then over the next 25 years, um, I grew my career, um, and we grew the company to a $30 million company, providing opportunities to women in Arizona and Indiana, and, um, expanding the company to Scotland and Argentina, um, to provide people with opportunities to build meaningful and rewarding careers.

Speaker B: That is absolutely amazing. There were so many key points that you talked about. You know, the counselor who told you that, and I'm sure that counselor has mentioned that to numerous people. And it took a left turn and they just went on and did whatever they. They were, uh, inclined to do. What do you think was the key point that made you latch on to what that counselor told you?

Speaker C: But I think there was. There was two things. Like, the one was the idea that I didn't have to worry about what people thought about me. I, you know, as a young girl, um, that becomes this thing, right? Is trying to fit in and trying to be. Wanting to be liked. And, um, you know, somebody telling me that I didn't have to worry about being liked, especially in a place like this. And also that. That I could use that time to invest in myself, um, and that I could be a better person, that I could rebuild like, kind of like the Six Billion Dollar man. For those of us old enough for the reference.

Speaker B: Got the reference. Got the reference. So it's kind of like I told a story, as I mentioned, I was in Saudi Arabia yesterday, and, uh, I told a story of growing up with my parents. And it was like a lesson every night. You know, they. They did well and all of that, but it was a lesson every night. And I said, when I graduated from high school, I already had a PhD in life. So it's kind of like you took seven years, and you came out of seven years not only with a philosophy degree, but as well as a business degree.

Speaker C: Yeah. There you go. Uh, yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah.

Speaker B: So. So what, so, so what kept you focused? Uh, you know, because you still locked up, you're doing great things on the calls, but at the end of the shift, I'm going back to wherever I'm going back to, and all of that, uh, and all of the stuff that's going on around you there. But you're staying. How do you stay? I think the question I'm asking is, how do you stay focused for seven years or six years or whatever it is?

Speaker C: Well, that's actually a really, really interesting, uh, it's a really interesting question because there's a lesson that I learned after release about it. While I was there, everything was about the day that I walked out of that gate, right? It was all about what was going to happen, how I was preparing myself for that. I was going to get this job. I was. I did get a college degree while I was incarcerated. Um, I was going to get this degree. I was going to rebuild the relationships that I had, right? I was going to. I was going to address all those things. And when I got out, I was going to have a job and, and a house and, you know, I was going to reunite with my, my ex husband and my children. And so everything was about planning for that. So it was like the ah, eye on the prize. My eye on the prize. So it was, I call it kind of like the what's next. Um, in, in the real world it's about just goal setting. And so the real really what. Because once I got out, I had everything I wanted. I had the house, me and the ex husband got remarried, I reunited with my children, I had the job. I was, I went on my first vacation. I ate fresh strawberries from a garden. Like all the things that were in my, my, my to do things. I skied at Tahoe. Right. Like I had my list. And so after my first year of I had everything I wanted. Right. I call it when all I ever wanted wasn't enough phase of my life. I realized I was kind of in it, a dangerous spot. I was lost, I was restless, I was irritable. I didn't know where I was going. Um, and then I somehow inadvertently saved my own life by enrolling back in school, getting another degree, planning bonds. Um, then I did a TEDx event. And so the mantra in my life, and I didn't realize it until much later kind of looking back was what's the next big thing you're going to do? What's your next big thing? And so by always thinking about what's next, um, then you're in this constant state of forward motion and, and building something. Whether it's both. And I always try to think about it both business and personal, like what's my next big thing?

Speaker B: Yeah, okay. Okay. That's laser focused. You're talking about laser focus. If they, if, if you Google laser laser focus, that story should come up because of, I mean when you. I, my. One of my hobbies is when I get a chance to watch TV is crime shows and I, the sentencing part is when I sit there and I think and somebody says seven years, uh, 25 years or whatever it is.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I'm like, how do you walk out of that moment and realize that you're going to be someplace and you have nothing, nothing, no control. But someone is going to guide that for X amount of years. That's laser focus. Any, any insight you can give us. And I say that because not for someone who's in incarcerated that may be listening in, but for, for people that are in careers. How do you stay focused when everything around you tells you not to be focused?

Speaker C: You mean this thing that keeps us forever distracted?

Speaker B: Uh, hold on for a second before you Mention before you go on, I'm going to bring that up because I'm watching BBC and I see this case in California on social media. But anyway, go ahead and, go ahead and give me, uh, your intake.

Speaker C: I, you know, I just think it. I, I'm um, not 100 sure of the answer. I just think it's always like, what? Uh, me and my girlfriends, I have a group of girlfriends who um, are all friends. We've all of us did time, whether we did time together or not, we know each other through the work experience and we're a group of people who. We had this whole discussion. We just had a girls weekend and we're like, what is it that about us? Like, we're all getting ready to go hike to the. But to the base of the Grand Canyon to see the Havasupai Falls. Um, and it came in an instant. I had a moment and said my, I want to do this. I text them, I said, hey girls, anybody want to do this? Everybody says, yes, absolutely, I'm in. Right? Like without even. None of us are hikers, but we're all of a sudden we're going to go backpack to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. I relate that story because it's. All of us spent time not being able to do anything, not having control of our life, missing out on things. Um, and basically telling ourselves, I'm never going to miss out on any. Ever going to miss the shot again.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: And so. Right. And you're always going to miss the shot if you don't take the shot. And so we literally, I think we just live our lives in this world of like, yeah, I'm going to take the shot. What is the next shot I can take? That looks interesting. I can try that. We just, we all worked for the same company, so we all know we can do hard things.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: Right? And, and doing time is hard things. And so you just, it's like, I think it's just resilience and grit.

Speaker B: Yeah. You make it sound so easy. I mean you, you know, you make it sound so easy. I was talking with a CEO earlier today and he was struggling on this and struggling on that. And we were kind of talking through a conversation and, and I'm hearing what you're saying now is like, maybe he needs to talk to you. You were able to, to walk through that. So you, you, as you tell the story, it, it is so uplifting. But I want to ask a question. I want to say, and I know I pretty much know the answer to it, but Were they dark moments? And when the dark moments came in, because you still have seven years and you, those dark moments must have come through during that period. And I'll take it back to corporate. Even in corporate, it could be you just lost your job or you know, you're going to lose your job, but you know, you don't have the skills. You know, you don't have all of these things in life that comes through.

Speaker C: There's. Look, there were dark moments there. Um, there, there was some of the darkest moments ever. Like, um, time spent in solitary confinement. Like, and you learn who you are when you are in a dark room by yourself for five, six, seven days, right? Like you, you, you learn everything about who's in your head and the dangerous neighborhood that I can wander around in there. And, and you know, so there's, there's those things, right? Coming to terms with the, the hurts that you caused other people. Um, hands down, the. I was asked this many years ago, like, what. Somebody asked me what I thought the number one most important piece to my success was. I think it was forgiveness, um, first and foremost, forgiving myself, um, because that's all you can do, right? But, but there's still dark places. Um, there's a lot of dark places when you're running a business. I, I'm running a non profit right now, um, in, in a space that, that is not, you know, as I always say, babies or puppies. Uh, you know, I run a nonprofit that's about, you know, providing opportunities for more incarcerated women. It's not the most likely place that people want to donate their money. M. And so fund funding can be challenging. Um, and there's times, you know, just recently, as, as recent as six, eight months ago, that I was in a space where I felt like I wanted to give up you and I, you know, it was a dark, dark space and you're only there with yourself. And you know, that's the, that's the role of the CEO, right? We have not only responsibility for the business, but we have responsibility for all of the people and all of the families, um, that work for us. And then in my case, I have responsibility for all of the women who are in my programs who are in the process of changing their lives. And, and then I always tell myself, and then the reason why I do this is for the 16 year old who's just starting to make really bad decisions, um, and making sure that there's something for her when she gets to that space, right? And so that, that starts to be this heavy Weight that like, oh my gosh.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And yeah. And you know, and I think it's just in the darkest spaces, it's one. I think I've trained myself to just think that failure is not an option. It's not, it's just not an option. Like you just have to pick yourself up and put one foot in front of the other and move forward. And know wherever you are, it goes back to what I told myself on that very first day. Everything happens for a reason. Um, and everything is going to come together exactly the way it was supposed to. It's supposed to. Yesterday I got notification, um, that I did not receive this, this $5 million grant. That we were all like, we had the highest hopes for it. And so we get that notification and I was on a plane and I am actually like tears in my eyes on a plane because I'm like, this changes the trajectory of what I'm going to do for next year. And the only thing I could tell myself is like, it's either because the answer is either no, not now, or not this. You just have to accept that I

Speaker B: don't feel as bad now. A 5 million dollar loss as opposed to me looking at a project that was supposed to start next week and they said, no, we're not gonna do it next week.

Speaker C: Well, uh, this is the world of the non profit though. Everything is, you know, win or lose and.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when as you tell that story and you think about the CEO, who's that P. L. The board meeting and you're talking about survival, people that are looking to you for, for survival, that's a much heavier load than a, uh, publicly traded company.

Speaker C: Is it though? Is it really? Because doesn't the CEO of the publicly traded company still have the, the same responsibility for.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: Mm. All the people in the company, the future of the company. The nobody wants to be the CEO that tanked the company.

Speaker B: Right, Yeah, I understand.

Speaker C: Yeah. So, you know, I, you know, I don't know that it matters, um, whether it's, whether you're running a small company, a tiny company, same mental burden.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I, I think what I was referencing, uh, was more towards the empathy behind it because of what you'd gone through. You know, and I, I remember reading an article this week about the CEO that fired everyone by Zoom and it hit the news. Right, you remember that? Right. So he's back in the job market now and he's trying to come back beyond that because basically his board got rid of him as a result and I'm sure it was a lot of other things behind that, but the empathy part, that you, you, you are representing people who've gone through what you've gone through.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker B: And you know, you know that feeling, and they're looking to you to guide that through, and you're getting on that flight, and then you've got, however, the duration of that flight to think through that. Um, so, so I want to follow that up with bad news, the sentencing, and all those things. So you talked about the, the gentleman who gave you the advice. How do you handle defeat? How do you handle defeat? That has been kind of, uh, I want to say pushed on you, whatever it is, but how do you handle defeat? And to get back on track, because it has to be devastating. The loss of that grant was devastating. But how do you from that to get back on track to find the other 10 million or 15 million or whatever.

Speaker C: I, it is, it. I, I, I guess because I, I, uh, still always go back to this, to the same thing. I just, it, I guess it's like it's a matter of acceptance and resilience. Okay. I, I think everything, I truly, honestly believe everything in the universe happens exactly as it's supposed to. Um, and that right when, you know, if I think about my, my life as a kid, did I ever think that I was going to be doing this?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Absolutely not. No way. I, you know, my best case scenario as a child was, you know, I might have grown. Grown up to be like, a bookkeeper or receptionist or something like that. Kind of like that's what was my mom's path. Or, or I might have managed a restaurant or I was a bartender. So I never thought I would be here. But now when I sit here today, I know that everything happened in my life exactly the way that I did so that I could be here today, so that I could do the things that I do. Um. Did I ever think that I was going to be running a nonprofit? No. My, you know, that's when I talk about my career, my trajectory through prison. My whole goal was to get out of prison, build a career, make a lot of money, provide for my children, buy a big house, have a great life.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Well, okay, then I did that. Never thought I was going to start a nonprofit. And when I was asked to do it, I was furious. I didn't want to do it. Um, I said no. Um, and I was being volun. Told for volatile.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: And, and love that word. Yeah. And it was a dark place, and I had to make a decision Am I going to do it or am I going to walk away?

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: And I chose to do it. And obviously right now, six years into this, seven years into this, it's like, oh yeah, this is actually like the whole entire path was designed to get you here. And so now I think about, okay, well, what next?

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: What's next?

Speaker B: So, so as, as if you had to give, I'm going to throw a scenario out to you. If you were giving a speech to a group of CEOs for profit, uh, for, for profit, non profit, whatever it is, what advice would you give to them as far as leadership philosophy? I mean, with what you've gone through and the story you've told already is a master class, is it? As well as a documentary. This is absolutely awesome. But what advice would you give them? What are some key points would you give those group of people there who did everything right? Everything was, was like a building blocks and you're in front of them coming from a totally different background. What advice would you give them?

Speaker C: You know, um, I used to be terrified to be in those rooms. I used to be terrified of the judgment that would come in those rooms of my background. Um, so even like saying that I'm on a stage in front of that group of people, there's that little part of me that still goes like, am I really good enough to be standing here right now?

Speaker B: Do I belong?

Speaker C: Do I belong? Yeah. Am I, am I good enough? Are they suddenly going to find out that I'm, I don't know what I'm doing? I, I tell myself all the time, any minute now somebody's going to find out I don't know what I'm doing. Uh, but I, I guess if I was going to, you know, from a leadership standpoint, my leadership philosophy has always been, I tell people this when they come to work for me all the time. Um, you have your own business to run.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: My role is to give you the tools and the resources that you need to be successful and to remove the obstacles that prevent your success. And I think about it that way primarily because we have to be our own. We have to empower people and, and push people to run their own space. Right. Because like I said, my, the CEO of Televerde, he believed in me and he supported me and he pushed me harder than anybody ever pushed me before in my life. And he made me realize I could do hard things. And I think through that, like, that's kind of the same philosophy. Uh, I try to do the same thing, but Try to put some words around. The philosophy is this is your business to run and I expect you to run it successfully. I'm here to help you make that happen.

Speaker B: That's amazing. Um, because lots of times we. You look at the so called career journey and it's pretty much laid out. You know, you do the steps and all of these kind of things. But what you're finding today is that career journey that maybe everything went right is totally in disarray because of the fact of artificial intelligence and all of these other things that are coming into play and people lose out. I was speaking to someone the other day and she, One of the things she told me, and you can understand this when I say this, she says, I did everything right. I did everything I was supposed to do, I did it right. And I've been laid off three times and I just can't figure out what the next step is.

Speaker C: You know, I just watched. We were talking about movies. I just watched the movie Wild. Have you ever seen this?

Speaker B: No. No. No. Okay.

Speaker C: It's, uh, Reese Witherspoon and she's hiking the Pacific Crest Trail.

Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker C: Right. And she, I thought of it because you just said that she was a person who had done everything right. She'd done everything as expected. Um, and then she had a terrible tragedy that she couldn't overcome. She just didn't have the resilience or the grit to overcome that. Um, and she had to go back out and find it. Uh, and I think, I think there's a lot. One of the, the premise of, of what we do with the women on the inside is, um, develop self efficacy. And you're frozen. Um, oh, okay, there you go. The, the premise of what we do on the inside is develop self efficacy. And self efficacy is really the belie yourself that you can do something. Um, the willingness to do it, the determination to see it through, um, and then just to do it over and over and over again. And, and, and I don't think we think about the concept of self efficacy enough. In fact, I would ask you, have you ever actually heard the phrase before?

Speaker B: Um, I've heard it quite a few times.

Speaker C: Oh, that's.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've heard it quite a, quite a few times. Um, in discussions with senior people who we, we. We have this vision that they know everything and they're struggling too.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, the self efficacy thing I think is, is, is real and we need to figure out how to teach it to children in school because that, what helps us, uh, you know, have the resilience to. To overcome and move on through hard things and also to have the willingness to try hard things.

Speaker B: Yeah. So you mentioned school. I'm gonna. I want to kind of divert the conversation somewhat. Um, so again, doing everything right, we have the steps, you know, grade one to 12, and you do all these things and you go through the normal classes. A young man who was on the show a long time ago told me. He said, I just finished. Send me a note in the middle of the night. He said he had just finished a two hour examination and all he was doing was reciting. He was answering questions or describing something that he had memorized. And he said, what is this going to do with me in life? So I'm. If you think about education, is our education system broken? Uh, you know, you talk about social media and what I mentioned earlier was that Facebook is being sued for over a trillion dollars for basically some of the things we're talking about. Um, interesting case. But when you think about education and you think about what you went through, is there anything that needs to change or is it. Are we still using the same M model? When school started, you go 1 through 12, 12, and then you go to college, trade school, or whatever it is. And should we review that?

Speaker C: You know, I'm not sure I'm the best person because I didn't finish high school.

Speaker B: I think you're. I think you are the best person.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: I didn't finish high school. I found it to be, um, boring, um, and, uh, not very challenging and not very useful. Uh, is that a byproduct of the teachers? Is that a byproduct of, uh. Right. Like, maybe I got a little bit of ADD going on up here. Like, who. Who knows? Right. Um, the, the pathway to college. I, I would say, you know, when I got my first degree, after I, my, My bachelor's degree, my associates in prison, I got my bachelor's, um, shortly after I got out and I walked across the stage and as I accepted my degree, I cried. Um, I cried because I realized it was. My father was so proud of me. Oh, my gosh. My father was so, so proud of me. And I cried because. Tears of joy. Because it was the first time I'd ever done anything that normal people had done in my mind's eye. Right. Like, it was the first time that I was on the path of doing something normal. Uh, I think education is important. It's just the. How do we get the education you, uh, talked about the guy, he, you know, just spent two Hours taking a test of things that he had memorized. You know, what's the point of that? Well, sometime, at some point that stuff is in his mind. Right. This thing, it's amazing the stuff that, that comes out of our minds. Um, and so there's something in the discipline and the structure of learning that helps us in the hard moments. Right. When times are hard and all of those things, it gives you things you can tap into. I'm a, a, a lifelong learner. I'm a person who. Right. I think that is part of what's helped me be successful is that every time I run into something that I don't know how to do, I'm like, well, you know what? I know how to learn. I go learn. Let me go find some materials, let me read, let me study, let me go ask other people for help. Um, and let me learn. Um, the school systems, are they broken? Well, of course, you know, um, the fact that, you know, the same level and quality of education isn't available to everybody is the biggest problem, I think. Yeah, yeah. The fact that we don't pay our teachers appropriately is a problem because, you know, if a teacher is in school, family at home because she doesn't make enough money, how, how, how equipped is she to be engaged and super effective in the classroom? Right. Like ah, we under resource. The schools, there's, there's a lot, you know what I mean? Like we, we take away if school's boring and we continue to strip things away from it because of budgets, it's only getting more and more boring.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, I teach at a university here in Dubai and in our board meeting a few weeks ago and the article that we had sent around was concerning the four year degree, could that be three years? Could that be restructured? And I think everything is in focus now. This is my thought and from dealing with a lot of the people that I deal with is everything is in flux. How are we going to figure this out? Is the normal path of K12, is that working? Uh, based on what you said, could we rearrange that? Learning is still the option, but in a lot of cases I'm kind of glad that everything is kind of like the puzzle. You're almost there putting the piece together and somebody comes by, hits the table and everything goes disarray and you got to put it back together again. I, I kind of, I kind of like that.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I certainly wouldn't want to be raising children right now. Um, I think AI is fabulous. I am a huge adopter. I use it for everything. Not everything, but I use it for a lot of things.

Speaker B: Um, same, same here.

Speaker C: I worry deeply, deeply, deeply about us outsourcing our thinking. Um, right. Not, not. Never mind our decision making, like everybody talks about that, but literally outsourcing our thinking. Um, our ability to write and respond and um, and be strategic.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Right. How do you, as, as a leader, as an executive running an organization, this is what everybody should be thinking about is how do you do strategic planning? How do you get the minds in the room to think strategically about what's next? What are we doing next? What are our big rocks? What should we do next year? Three years, five years? Um, if we're just outsourcing all of our thinking to the robots. Right. Are we just going to ask the robots to do our strategic planning for us?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Because then the robots are going to build the future for us.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You sound like an excellent professor. Just bestowing the vision of what it's going to look like and doing. But what you're talking about is reality. And I think, I think lots of times today, you know, we, we, we talk, we do a lot of talking. I gave a speech in Europe and a gentleman sent me a note, Apple. He said, I really love the key points. And I talked about the intersection of government, education and careers and all those things. And he said, you know what he said? I really enjoyed what you, you were talking about. He said, but all everybody does is just talk. And everybody's inspired after the talk, but nobody does anything. So if you come back the next year, it's the same thing again. It's talking, talking, talking, uh, speeches, speeches, speeches. But when are we gonna, when are we gonna say, you know what, let's everybody in this room get together, whatever it is, and, and figure out what do we do next? Because I think next is next. Has to be next.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, that's, There you go. What's your next big thing?

Speaker B: What's your next big thing? Has anybody ever approached you to do a documentary or a movie behind us? And I'm serious in asking you this.

Speaker C: I've had a couple folks, uh, want to do some sort of a documentary story about it. Uh, they, they all want money. They want me to pay them to do it.

Speaker B: Oh, that kind of.

Speaker C: Yeah, that kind of like, hey, we'll do a Netflix series or we'll do a thing. You just need a million dollars. And if I have a million dollars, that's not, I'm not going to spend a million dollars on that. Although they make A good case that if you spend a million dollars on this, the return on your investment. I get it. But you know, there's all those things. Um, yeah, I'm, I mean, I'm working on, I'm working on writing, ah, a book that'll be kind of a. I call it a memoir with a message, so.

Speaker B: Oh, wow.

Speaker C: The story, you know, the, my story. Lots of stories of women like me and kind of practical advice on, on, um, how to, how to, how to rebuild your life, how to, how to fix things, how to move forward or. Yeah, all that. But that's probably, you know, if you've ever written a book, it's probably still another two years in the making.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've been writing one for three years. Three, four years, five years. I got all the notes today, but I said I'm gonna, I'm gonna work on it tonight, uh, maybe tomorrow night

Speaker C: because right now I gotta work on my business.

Speaker B: Yeah, I gotta work on the business. So let's talk about the business now. The Televerde foundation for people that want to contribute.

Speaker C: Or what is it.orgcelebrity foundation.org? yep. Okay, find me on LinkedIn. Send me a message on LinkedIn. I will respond. I try to respond to, uh, I try to respond to everybody who's not trying to sell me, um, something via AI on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: Um, you know, I laugh when you said that because someone's, you know, they send you these things. Here's my calendar. Choose the date. I'm like, get away from me. Some reason that just bothers me when they do that.

Speaker C: They just pop up a, uh, a website for the televerde, uh, for televerde. And it's actually televertyfoundation.org not televerdi.org okay.

Speaker B: They, uh, make that change. It's televertifoundation.org I think that was. He'll make that change in just a bit.

Speaker C: But there's also, if you're interested in outsourcing your sales and market, um, and in customer, uh, service, the call center, the televerde for profit business. We still have the call centers in the women's prisons and that's televerde.com. but either way, reach out to me. I will, I will talk to you about anything.

Speaker B: Oh, that's great. That's great. So for everyone listening in, connect on LinkedIn. She will connect with you on LinkedIn. And if you want to write a check, we'd like for you to write a check and you know, to keep it all going. So we really Appreciate that. Um, as we come up to our closing here, we got a few more minutes to go. Um, you've gone through so much, and your, your common sense approach to life, even though you have the degrees and you've gone through all of that, sometimes we lose that. You know, mother would say you could have all the degrees you want, but if you don't have the common sense, it means absolutely nothing.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, and I'm sure you get so many requests from people for mentorship or helping people. Talk to us about the importance of reaching back to someone that may be incarcerated or maybe had. Had made a bad decision. You said you made all of these bad decisions. Talk to us through that. Um, give us some insights on giving back, the importance of it.

Speaker C: So I, I, there's two things I, uh, the, the first thing that I always think about is, and I just mentioned it a minute ago, every turn in my career, each role that I had in my career was a job that I'd never had. I didn't know what I was doing. I was in sales. Then I went into sales operations, and then I ran client Success, and then I was chief marketing officer. And I didn't, I didn't know any of these things beforehand. And so, and then, and then I agreed to start a nonprofit. And at every turn, the, the number one thing that I, I did when I got there, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I have no idea what I'm doing. Can I do this? Like, I'm not qualified for this. Any minute somebody's going to find out. I don't know. Was. I reached out to people, um, and I asked for advice, I asked for guidance, I asked for suggestions. And every single person, every time I ever did that, uh, people responded and they shared what they could. They, you know what I mean? Whether it was knowledge or resources or tools or introductions, um, and that, without a doubt, is what enabled me to build my career over and over and over time and time again. Uh, and I think, I think that is the, that is what we are obligated to do as people, um, who have built something, who have built careers. Is it what has been given to me, freely given to me? It is my responsibility to turn around and freely give it to others. Um, and it is through that that we build the next generation of folks, whether it is people who are incarcerated or just kids in college or anybody who is, um, has the desire to learn and grow. Right? The first step is the asking. Um, but sometimes you have to tap somebody on the shoulder or even Smack them upside the head and say, hey, hey, pay attention. Get out. Come on. Um, so I would say that when we talk about the incarcerated folks and we talk about one of the biggest challenges, um, that I was able to overcome through the gift of Televerde was that I had a job. When I got out, I walked out of prison with a job offer in my hand. And it was a job offer that led to a real, meaningful and rewarding career.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: Um, it was real, true opportunity. Um, and so there's 600,000 people who get out of prison every year who want a real, true opportunity. Um, yeah. And. And loyal and dedicated and committed and full of grit and perseverance and all of the things that you want in an employee. They've been through hard things. They know they can do hard things. They want an opportunity to rebuild their lives. But too often, we look at them and we judge them. Uh, and so I always say, you know, would you want to be judged for the worst decisions that you made on the worst days of your life? Well, right.

Speaker B: Uh, you know, we always talk about. We asked for closing thoughts, but we could not have gotten a better synopsis of what this was about and what you were just saying. So I thank you so much. I will be in touch offline with you. As I told you, the marketing piece that goes on next week, but let's stay in touch. And, um, I wish you all the success. If you need me in any way, if I hear of opportunities over, um, in my part of the world, I will be sure and reach out for anyone that's listening. I would hope that you do the same thing, because you will not find a better story than what we heard today. This was a master class in life as well as education. So thank you so much, Michelle, and enjoy your time with your grandkids.

Speaker C: Awesome, Ron. You have a great day. Appreciate you. Bye. Bye.

Speaker B: Bye. Bye.

Speaker A: Take the CEO series with you anywhere, anytime. All episodes are now available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and major streaming platforms. It's not just an interview, it's a masterclass in leadership.