Reinvention, resilience & the realities of digital leadership

1 - > Zoe: Welcome to our podcast, Being a Digital Leader: The 2 - > Good, the Bad and the Ugly of Digital Transformation. 3 - > I'm Zoe Kelleher, a club exec for AND Digital in one of our 4 - > London clubs, Club Valerie. 5 - > And I'm delighted to be here today with um Rebecca Hosgood 6 - > and Di Spindley from Curries. 7 - > So before we get into things a little bit more about the good, 8 - > the bad, the ugly of digital transformation, Di, would you 9 - > like to introduce yourself and then Rebecca?

10 - > Di: Yeah, thanks, Zoe, for having us here. 11 - > So very excited to be here today talking to you and with 12 - > Rebecca. 13 - > It's great to do this together. 14 - > I'm Di Spindley.

15 - > I'm head of delivery at Curries in our technology team, 16 - > responsible for transformation across our retail and channels 17 - > business, also our technology and enterprise services, which 18 - > will be HRP poor finances, and then also supply chain and 19 - > contact centres. 20 - > So nice and busy. 21 - > And then in my spare time, I'm an avid marathon runner, and if 22 - > I can do that with travel as well, that is my happy place. 23 - > Zoe: Wow, sounds great, great, except for all the running, but 24 - > the travel sounds amazing.

25 - > And Rebecca, welcome. 26 - > Rebecca: Hello, thank you for having me. 27 - > Um so I'm Rebecca. 28 - > Um I worked at Curies for just over 14 years now.

29 - > Um, and I spent the first nine of that in the business in the 30 - > online space, and then the last five years in technology. 31 - > Um, and I head up our tech strategy and enterprise 32 - > architecture team at Curies. 33 - > Um I'm also a member to a very kind but also independent three 34 - > world uh who very much keeps me on my text. 35 - > Zoe: Wow, so it sounds like you're both very busy both 36 - > inside and outside of work.

37 - > But let's get into um all things digital transformation, 38 - > but let's roll things back a little bit and just um if you 39 - > can talk to us about how you got into tech in the first place. 40 - > What was your path? 41 - > Di: So actually it's a bit of a squiggly line for me. 42 - > So I've been in technology, um, I started in 2014, and I know 43 - > that because that's the year I got married, so it's always good 44 - > to remember where you started.

45 - > Um, and what really led me into technology was that at that 46 - > time that was the birth almost of like e-commerce, Amazon, 47 - > people shopping online and digital. 48 - > And at that time, you know, it was like the birth of YouTube 49 - > and all those things, and prior to that I was working at Disney 50 - > um in consumer products, loving life, and working with creative 51 - > designers, studio, graphic design, and things like that. 52 - > So very different to technology.

53 - > But I found that whilst I was doing that and I loved the role, 54 - > actually what was really inspiring was what was happening 55 - > in digital. 56 - > And because I was in project management, I looked to a friend 57 - > that had his own company, Digital Company, and said, I'd 58 - > really like to understand a little bit more about digital. 59 - > What does it mean to develop apps and what what does this 60 - > mean? 61 - > And could I have a career in it?

62 - > And he very kindly um allowed me to do some work experience 63 - > there where I did an app with The Guardian and found actually 64 - > transferable skills into technology. 65 - > There were they weren't massively dissimilar to working 66 - > with creative people as in developers as well. 67 - > And then I got recruited to work at Merlin Entertainment, so 68 - > still stayed within the media and entertainment sector, which 69 - > was great for me because I understood the business, which 70 - > was super helpful, but then had a complete baptism for in terms 71 - > of technology, infrastructure, IBM, whitelisting things, and 72 - > yeah.

73 - > But from then I've absolutely loved it because the variety and 74 - > the breadth of what you can do across technology is phenomenal. 75 - > And I've been really lucky to work in some great companies, 76 - > MBC Universal, and then also now at Curry's, and every role has 77 - > been completely different. 78 - > So from application development into infrastructure, 79 - > e-commerce, and transformation as a whole, I think the breadth 80 - > has been really great, and I think that's what keeps me in 81 - > technology because it's always evolving, it's always changing, 82 - > and I've grown so much through that time, and I love how much 83 - > it impacts and ever our everyday life.

84 - > It's so interconnected to what we do, and so that keeps me 85 - > keeps me going. 86 - > Zoe: Yeah, and there's never any shortage of learning, right? 87 - > Because as you say, it just all changes so fast, it's very 88 - > exciting a lot of the time. 89 - > Yeah.

90 - > Thank you, Di. 91 - > What about you, Rebecca? 92 - > How did you get into it? 93 - > Rebecca: Um, so I sort of fell into technology.

94 - > As I mentioned, I spent 10 years or just under in the econ 95 - > business and I actually started online marketing. 96 - > Really thought I wanted to go into sort of digital marketing 97 - > space. 98 - > Spent a couple of years doing that, which was fantastic. 99 - > Um, gave me a really good foundation in the commercials, 100 - > the acumen, driving traffic, conversion, um, hitting sales 101 - > targets.

102 - > Um, but I craved the the more fast-paced change and innovation 103 - > and and really being able to, and I'm so therefore I moved 104 - > into project and program delivery, had a great old line 105 - > manager that gave a chance on me. 106 - > Um, and I moved into that space and then just progressed. 107 - > Um, and I just instantly loved it. 108 - > I loved the variety, mixing with lots of different 109 - > stakeholders, and the ability to really show the impact of what 110 - > you were doing on the young consumer.

111 - > Um, and so then literally my team was moved from online into 112 - > technology. 113 - > Um, so curry is made. 114 - > At the time, Dixon's Carf made a practice choice to bring 115 - > together all of our change capability from across the 116 - > business, and at that time I was heading up our digital delivery 117 - > across our websites, our mobile app, our in-store assisted 118 - > selling platforms, looked after user testing and our sort of 119 - > agile centre of excellence, and so that got moved into 120 - > technology, um, and so that was me sort of falling into 121 - > technology.

122 - > Um, but it's been great, and I think what is really good when 123 - > you look back is you really understand the skills you learn 124 - > in the business, yeah, are just so valuable when you have a role 125 - > in technology because you understand your uh your 126 - > stakeholders, you understand what they're trying to achieve, 127 - > and you're also close to the customer. 128 - > And I think then that's what's kept me extremely passionate 129 - > about what we do today is about being able to actually see that 130 - > tangible impact.

131 - > Um, and so a lot of for me, the thing that most excites me 132 - > about being in technology now is that using that technology to 133 - > really drive benefits for our customers or our colleagues. 134 - > Zoe: Now, and from what you were saying, two things that have 135 - > jumped out a the variety, I think that's what keeps us all 136 - > in tech, and the fast pace and the ever-changing world that 137 - > we're living in, but also that both of you were given 138 - > opportunities within your careers to try something 139 - > different, and I think it's a reminder we'll come to diversity 140 - > and um facilitating support for career for for other people's 141 - > careers, but it's really important to actually listen and 142 - > give people the opportunity because you never know where 143 - > they'll end up anyway.

144 - > I've gone on a sideline already, so let's move on. 145 - > And um, what would you say has been the biggest barrier or 146 - > challenge of your career to date? 147 - > Shall we start with you, Rebecca, this time? 148 - > Rebecca: Yeah, so I think um I'll talk probably a bit about 149 - > how growing a career in one company.

150 - > Zoe: Okay. 151 - > Rebecca: Um, I think often when you're growing up, you sort of 152 - > think, Oh, I'm gonna move around a lot. 153 - > And I guess when I was a naive graduate and I joined Curries at 154 - > the age of 22, I probably I felt that was my path. 155 - > Um, but I've been extremely lucky that I've had lots of 156 - > people that have championed me and given me opportunities as 157 - > we've gone along in order to be able to grow a career at 158 - > Curries.

159 - > Um, but what that also comes with is then having to sort of 160 - > shed your skin because as you grow, you become different 161 - > people, you learn different things, um, and a lot of the 162 - > people that are your stakeholders knew you as that 163 - > 22-year-old. 164 - > And so, actually, a lot of what you're doing is kind of 165 - > reinventing yourself, shedding that skin as you go through, and 166 - > I think it gives you an environment where you can fail, 167 - > learn, grow, and you've got this massive support network around 168 - > you because you've got a load of people that want to see you do 169 - > well because they feel they've been part of your journey and 170 - > your career, but also it means you've got a lot of people that 171 - > sort of some sometimes can think, oh no, they're not 172 - > capable of that, and so I think you have to put a lot of 173 - > intentional effort into sort of focusing on doing a good job, 174 - > and it sounds very basic, but to show that you've got the skills 175 - > and the capability to step up to that next level or take on 176 - > this new project or lean in and help a colleague.

177 - > Um, so yeah, I think that's been probably one of the biggest 178 - > challenges. 179 - > Zoe: Yeah, I can imagine, but also incredible to look back and 180 - > see what you've achieved from going in as that 22-year-old uh 181 - > to where you are today. 182 - > So it's a really fantastic story. 183 - > Um, and I think for me, when you're in a company, as long as 184 - > your role evolves and you're learning all the time, right?

185 - > That's motivation to stay and you're also earning the right to 186 - > move through and do different things within the company. 187 - > Di, what about you? 188 - > Any challenges or barriers that you can share in terms of your 189 - > career? 190 - > Di: I think similar to Rebecca, like the reinvention, I think is 191 - > really interesting because I spent quite a long time in 192 - > consumer products.

193 - > So I was 10 years at Disney, and then when I moved into 194 - > technology and then worked at NBC Universal, a lot of the 195 - > people that I worked with at Disney had also moved to 196 - > Universal but within consumer products. 197 - > So they knew me as Di who wasn't married at that point in 198 - > time and actually worked in the creative studio, ran that studio 199 - > and worked in consumer products. 200 - > So they really struggled with me being the technology and they 201 - > were like, How have you done that?

202 - > Like, how different is that, and how have you pivoted? 203 - > And so I think it's really interesting when people that you 204 - > know and know you see you in a different light and have to 205 - > almost like context switch themselves to understand how 206 - > you've grown and how your career's changed and developed. 207 - > Um so that I think is really interesting. 208 - > That I think we share that, even though I've moved 209 - > companies.

210 - > But I think probably the most interesting thing, I wouldn't 211 - > call it a challenge, but when I did join Merlin and I was 212 - > getting married, I did have the feedback from one of the senior 213 - > leadership team in a in a different, he was outside of 214 - > technology, and he said to me, Oh, now you're getting married, 215 - > I suppose you're gonna like have children, and maybe like you'll 216 - > be thinking about slightly differently about your career. 217 - > And I think what's really interesting about that is that 218 - > my husband and I opted to not have children, and actually 219 - > we're very career-driven, but that doesn't mean that we're not 220 - > maternal, and like you know, I love my niece and nephew, and 221 - > things like that.

222 - > But I think that expectation of women to be a certain way or to 223 - > adopt a certain role in the workplace or in the home is is 224 - > quite interesting to me, and I think that's starting to evolve 225 - > now. 226 - > So I love the conversation around actually, you can still 227 - > be a woman and maternal, but opt to not have children. 228 - > I think that's really interesting as we evolve into 229 - > the workspace, and I I like that we're talking about that more, 230 - > and I think that's really interesting because I think 231 - > there's been a lot of great work done on having careers as 232 - > mothers and coming back to work and being carers, but actually 233 - > being a woman in the workplace opts to not do that, still means 234 - > you're having a fulfilled life and things like that.

235 - > So I think that as a as a woman is interesting for me to see 236 - > that. 237 - > So I don't think a challenge necessarily, but just an 238 - > interesting observation. 239 - > Zoe: Yeah, and we will talk about that in a little bit, just 240 - > in terms of um being a woman in the workplace, but just uh to 241 - > build on what you've been talking about in terms of those 242 - > challenges and what's come out is how you've both had to 243 - > reinvent yourselves in some way.

244 - > Um, how have you done that? 245 - > Like what are the practical is there any practical sorry, I 246 - > know I'm throwing in a bit of a left-field question, but I'm 247 - > just thinking personally, one of the things I've had fed back to 248 - > me is that I don't PR myself enough. 249 - > And so I've had to try and learn over the years to shout a 250 - > little bit more about the stuff that I am doing and push myself 251 - > forward a little bit. 252 - > But is there anything in practical terms that has helped 253 - > with that reinvention or just to establish you in different 254 - > roles throughout your career?

255 - > Rebecca: I think there's probably two things that that 256 - > spring to mind. 257 - > Um, one is I guess I guess yes, around your I don't want to 258 - > make it sound too cheesy, but having an intentional view of 259 - > your brand. 260 - > What do you want to be known for? 261 - > Why do you think you're different?

262 - > What stands you apart from your peers? 263 - > Um, and being able to clearly articulate whatever role or next 264 - > role you want to do, how do you drive value? 265 - > Because I think that's where a lot of opportunities evolve from 266 - > if you can show you're having driving value or impact. 267 - > Um, the other piece for me is also think or that's something 268 - > I've done, is thinking about what you want to do next, and 269 - > then really thinking about what are the the skills you need to 270 - > do to get that you want to get, and therefore what roles can do 271 - > that, and then actually tell people about it because I think 272 - > a lot of it is about having conversations with people, yeah, 273 - > um showing your thought leadership, showing how you've 274 - > evolved as a person, what you want to do next, the skills 275 - > you've learned, and it's those conversations, those networks, 276 - > those connections that then sort of people go, ah Rebecca's now 277 - > brought something else to the table, or oh, she now she does 278 - > understand about this area of the business, or oh, she has 279 - > grasped that concept, and that's the thing that I think then 280 - > changed people's mindsets, and it's it's not just one 281 - > conversation, it is multiple conversations, and I think it 282 - > takes time, but that along with as I mentioned before, just 283 - > doing a good job.

284 - > Um, people want you then to they they want to give you the 285 - > new opportunity because they know they know you're going to 286 - > do a good job trying to have it. 287 - > Zoe: Yeah, exactly. 288 - > And sometimes it's hard when you're doing the good job to 289 - > lift yourself above all of that and really focus on looking 290 - > forward and what you want to do next, etc. 291 - > So it's not that easy to do both things at well.

292 - > Di: And I think you do a fantastic job, Bex, of doing 293 - > that. 294 - > Like you're very intentional in like your next steps and your 295 - > career and your role and what you want to do. 296 - > And I think it's really nice that you're, you know, very 297 - > motivated in that space, and I think that's probably where I'm 298 - > a little bit more different. 299 - > So when I joined Disney, that was you know, I wasn't meant to 300 - > be there, I was meant to go for like a temp job for a couple of 301 - > weeks, and I ended up being there for 10 years.

302 - > But the reason I stayed for so long and then and I had lots of 303 - > different roles within there, and then pivoted into technology 304 - > was the curiosity. 305 - > So I think by nature, just being curious about how does a 306 - > business work, how do you like take a bit of code and then 307 - > create something that then becomes an iPhone or something 308 - > that someone is then using to improve their everyday life, and 309 - > actually being intentional around like how does that work?

310 - > And asking lots of curious questions around developers or 311 - > how's the infrastructure work? 312 - > Like, what is the cloud? 313 - > It's not that up there in the sky, is it? 314 - > And like, how do those things work?

315 - > And I think when you start to show interest and start to talk 316 - > to people, they start to understand that well, you're 317 - > actually asking because you care, and therefore that helps 318 - > you to do a better job. 319 - > And to your point, because I think you then start to become 320 - > known to do a good job, you're really varied in your approach, 321 - > you're asking really good questions. 322 - > That is then showing in the results that you have and like a 323 - > more holistic approach to what you're doing, and then I think 324 - > your network is really key, like having really good conversation 325 - > with people and being intentional around, you know.

326 - > I always wanted to work in the US, and when that opportunity 327 - > came, I told enough people about it, and I was very vocal. 328 - > I'm sure Bex won't be surprised to hear. 329 - > I'm like, I really want to work in the US, and if an 330 - > opportunity came up, please think of me. 331 - > And it did come up, and I I spent a year living in LA, and I 332 - > think if you can put yourself out there, it's almost like 333 - > manifesting, you know, say what you want, be intentional, and 334 - > but then also say yes to opportunities that maybe you 335 - > wouldn't necessarily say yes to.

336 - > The reason I ended up at Merlin was because I picked up the 337 - > phone to a recruiter that called me a couple of times, and I was 338 - > like, normally I don't pick up the phone, but I was like, let 339 - > me just have this conversation, and then it's completely 180 my 340 - > career, and it just has made such a different difference, and 341 - > like doors open, and I think when you're curious and you 342 - > build good network and you're you're good at what you do 343 - > because you care, I think it makes a difference, and people 344 - > see see that.

345 - > Zoe: Yeah, love that. 346 - > So it's a bit of a combination of being intentional but also be 347 - > curious and take those chances sometimes, right? 348 - > Bet on yourself, yeah. 349 - > Yeah, exactly.

350 - > Bet on yourself. 351 - > Um, right, let's move on. 352 - > So, tech remains a very male-dominated industry. 353 - > I'm sure we can all see that in our everyday jobs, and things 354 - > are starting to change.

355 - > Um, but could you both share a little bit about your personal 356 - > experiences as women in leadership roles and how you've 357 - > seen diversity and inclusion in Curries? 358 - > Di: I actually really think Curries do a fantastic job of 359 - > diversity and inclusion. 360 - > And I think when I joined the team at Curries five years ago, 361 - > I was the only, I was the only girl on the team, and now Bex 362 - > has joined and it's great. 363 - > And I think actually, more broadly across technology, we're 364 - > definitely seeing like a more women coming into leadership 365 - > roles, and I think some of that is because people are 366 - > intentional, and that's not to say that we are going to hire 367 - > women over men, it's always the best person for the role, but I 368 - > think there's just an opening of opportunity to say, let's bring 369 - > in talent, let's see what people can offer, and having a 370 - > women's network, I think, has been a really good opportunity 371 - > to do that.

372 - > So the women's network started two years ago at Curry's, it's 373 - > one of our one of four employer relation groups that we have. 374 - > But what's been really special about that, alongside like kind 375 - > of working with Rebecca and the team, is I co-chair it too, 376 - > which is nice. 377 - > But we're working with lots of different areas of the business, 378 - > so it isn't just corporate, it's actually supply chain, it's 379 - > retail, and we're connecting as women and understanding each 380 - > other what we're doing there.

381 - > And off the back of that, you're having those 382 - > conversations in the networking, understanding where your 383 - > interests lie, and actually, as part of that, you can then start 384 - > to have different roles and opportunities and career 385 - > conversation about where you want to go, which is quite nice. 386 - > And I think we're starting to see more women wanting to come 387 - > into technology because part of what was great about the women's 388 - > network that we did last year was we were at Karen Brady and 389 - > we had a stool, we had a stand there, and it was a really good 390 - > opportunity for us to showcase that Curries is also a 391 - > technology company.

392 - > So, yes, we sell technology and we're a retailer, and that's 393 - > you know, we have everyone enjoy amazing technology, and that's 394 - > what we want to do. 395 - > But actually, as an organization, we are very 396 - > technology focused and driven, and it was a great way to 397 - > showcase that we had lots of women on the stand, which was 398 - > great, at a women's event saying, look at all the breadth 399 - > of careers you can have within technology at Curries, whether 400 - > it be in delivery, engineering, operations, and I think that's 401 - > really exciting.

402 - > I think curries are doing a good job of promoting themselves 403 - > as an employee for everybody and actually a diverse group of 404 - > people, not just women, but actually the diversity across 405 - > age, region, gender, etc., is brilliant. 406 - > I think they're doing a great job there. 407 - > Zoe: Yeah, I mean the the huge breadth of careers that are 408 - > available in tech, like most people don't know the breadth of 409 - > careers, so having those opportunities to see that.

410 - > And we talked the other day, Di, about the importance of 411 - > those women networking groups and just how inspirational it 412 - > can be to have a conversation with a female leader in your 413 - > field. 414 - > Rebecca, what about you and your personal experience of 415 - > being a female leader in tech? 416 - > Rebecca: So I think, as um Di said, we are lucky at Curries 417 - > that the representation across women, but also more broadly is 418 - > slowly evolving at Curry's.

419 - > Um and I think um I would agree with Di. 420 - > I'm not I'm not someone that's a fan for targets because I do 421 - > think it's super important that whatever role anyone is given, 422 - > they're getting it done on their um their credibility and their 423 - > ability to do the job. 424 - > But what I think is so important is that you're having 425 - > the conversation and it's front of mind of people when they're 426 - > looking to recruit because you have a lot of um biases that 427 - > you're unaware of, and so you have to intentionally we keep 428 - > using that word, be aware of those potential biases to be 429 - > able to counteract them, and so I think it's really important, 430 - > and actually, things like the women's network and other 431 - > networks we have, like Embrace, um, are really important at 432 - > bringing that to the forefront of the mind, having those 433 - > conversations, a lot of it is great also because they bring a 434 - > lot of external speakers, yeah, and so it validates a lot of the 435 - > conversations we have, it opens it up to wider audiences, um, 436 - > and so I think that's super important.

437 - > And for me, that the whole value of the diversity is is is 438 - > twofold, really. 439 - > One, it's about having making sure we have people with diverse 440 - > opinions, appetite to risk, culture, background, so you're 441 - > actually getting to the right outcomes for the business, um, 442 - > and it's proven that you get better results with diverse 443 - > teams, but also ultimately our curry's customer is very 444 - > diverse, and so it's really important we represent those 445 - > customers so that we understand their needs and that we really 446 - > can put our customers first because we understand them, and 447 - > that's one of Curry's key key values.

448 - > And so I think it it what's nice is that there's multiple 449 - > pronged approach at Curry's that does sort of bring it together 450 - > constantly reinforces the message, and so I'm very 451 - > positive around the trajectory that we're going in. 452 - > Um but there is a lot more to do, and I it is a shame when you 453 - > go to some external events, probably more traditional tech 454 - > leadership events, they are very male-dominated. 455 - > Di: I went to one event and there was a queue for the men's 456 - > toilet, and I breezed into the women's toilet, and I've never 457 - > seen that before ever.

458 - > It was the first time I'd seen it, and I was like, that just 459 - > shows you in a room full of people, there was like literally 460 - > a handful of women, and then the queue is just men, and I was 461 - > like, there is absolutely work to do. 462 - > But I like the awareness piece that's happening at the moment, 463 - > like people are talking about it, which is great. 464 - > And I think the more you talk about it, the more it becomes 465 - > top of mind, just naturally and kind of by osmosis.

466 - > And I think making sure that you're creating a culture where 467 - > you can be inclusive, people can be their authentic selves is 468 - > also really important because Bex, when you talk about like 469 - > having those diverse teams where you get diversity of thought, 470 - > the magic source starts to happen, right? 471 - > Because people are coming feeling psychologically safe to 472 - > share their different views and their opinions. 473 - > That's when you can start to unlock different ways of 474 - > working, different ways of thinking, creating that newness, 475 - > creating the innovation, which then drives a better product and 476 - > experience for both colleague and customer.

477 - > And I think that's where some of the magic really happens. 478 - > And I love that we can see that at work, like, especially when 479 - > you're in person, it's almost like you can feel the frizzle of 480 - > energy when you're in a room like whiteboarding and 481 - > everyone's like, Yeah, we could do this. 482 - > And it's nice when you watch people open up that are 483 - > sometimes quieter. 484 - > And then, like I see it with some of our um like solution 485 - > architects, when they're in a room and they like start to 486 - > really get excited by something, and I'm like, Yes, please geek 487 - > out and do that more because like then they're whiteboarding 488 - > and you can see all the the thoughts coming through, and I 489 - > think it's a really exciting, it's exciting to be part of 490 - > that.

491 - > I think I really like that. 492 - > Zoe: Yeah, and it sounds amazing at Curry's, and you know, 493 - > creating a culture that is truly diverse and inclusive is is 494 - > hard to do because you can bring people into a business, but 495 - > then you also have to have the right structure within the 496 - > business right through every process and everything that you 497 - > do to actually drive that feeling of inclusion and 498 - > belonging. 499 - > So it is really difficult.

500 - > So it sounds amazing, and long may that continue at Curry's. 501 - > Rebecca: I think the big single biggest thing for me that helps 502 - > this is flexibility. 503 - > Yeah, and so our curries hybrid working policy is you sort of 504 - > from a minimum of two days a month, and so it gives people 505 - > from across the business flexibility to be able to show 506 - > up, be their authentic self, not worry that they've got to 507 - > compromise on certain things at home.

508 - > And I really think that means that they can be from different 509 - > locations across the country. 510 - > You you open yourself up to a wider device of whether that's 511 - > mums that have to do the school pickup, whether that's um people 512 - > that are caring for elderly parents, whatever it may be, as 513 - > you go through life, things constantly change, and I think 514 - > everybody needs a degree of flexibility, and it might ebb 515 - > and flow. 516 - > Um, and so actually having that built into the curries ethos 517 - > and way of doing things, um, I think is a really big uh part of 518 - > actually us being able to promote a lot of these things 519 - > because it really does enable it.

520 - > Um so that's something I'm super passionate about. 521 - > Zoe: Yeah, and it sounds like even when people come together, 522 - > then whatever you're doing remotely is really working 523 - > because actually when they get in the room, then that what did 524 - > you call it? 525 - > Frizzle? 526 - > Frizzle of energy is there, and uh that's fantastic.

527 - > Di: Sorry, Day, what can you say? 528 - > No, I was just gonna say that we did an interesting exercise 529 - > as part of our delivery team and we mapped where people were in 530 - > the country, and there's such a nice spread now of people like 531 - > coming from the north, the Midlands, it's not just in 532 - > London, and so the fact that Bex, because of our flexibility, 533 - > you can recruit talent from everywhere. 534 - > We're not limited to you know one particular pocket of the 535 - > country, I think is really important.

536 - > I think that promotes the diversity, and actually, we're 537 - > quite intentional in that, and it comes from like the 538 - > leadership and all the levels in between as well. 539 - > And I think they really do live the values that they they speak 540 - > about. 541 - > It's not just a tick bock exercise, it actually feels 542 - > real. 543 - > Rebecca: Yeah, and then when you come together in the office, 544 - > and we do takeover days and team days and workshops, I think 545 - > that's where the energy does to come together.

546 - > Everyone knows there's a really clear purpose, there's an 547 - > agenda, it's really well organized, everyone's sort of 548 - > coming, you're quite excited you're going into the office and 549 - > you're getting that sort of interaction, um, that social 550 - > buzz, that frizzle, that's gonna be our new word. 551 - > Um, and so actually, it really works for us. 552 - > Um, and so um, yeah, it's um it's a great place to be at the 553 - > moment. 554 - > Yeah, definitely.

555 - > Zoe: And that's the key, it works for for you and it works 556 - > for curries, and every organisation is different, and I 557 - > suppose, in terms of finding that way to drive that diversity 558 - > and inclusion, will be different for every company, and 559 - > you have to find what will work for you. 560 - > Right, let's focus on some highlights now. 561 - > So, thinking back over your careers, what are some standout 562 - > projects or achievements that you would like to share?

563 - > Will we start with you, Di? 564 - > Di: Yeah, um, I would like to go back to a non-Curries one. 565 - > So, when I was at Merlin Entertainment, which was my 566 - > first forum to technology, we had a ticketing programme that 567 - > we rolled out, and we were a very small team and it felt like 568 - > family. 569 - > Um, and it was my first big program of work that we did, and 570 - > it was to roll out a new ticketing platform across all of 571 - > our sites, and that included brands like Sea Life, um, 572 - > Legoland Discovery Centres, and we travelled all around the US.

573 - > It's a little group of us that would go together, and we did 574 - > over a hundred attractions, I think it was 114 attractions in 575 - > 18 months. 576 - > We drove lots of revenue streams off the back of the 577 - > ticketing and implementing that new system. 578 - > And I loved it because A, we felt like family, B, we were 579 - > traveling all the time, and it just the energy was so 580 - > different, and we we felt like there was nothing we couldn't 581 - > do, and so all the problems that we like stumbled across, we 582 - > worked through as a group, and I think it was really nice from a 583 - > collaborative perspective because it was technology 584 - > working alongside marketing, working alongside an attraction 585 - > like in the business, working alongside finance, and actually 586 - > everyone coming together.

587 - > And don't get me wrong, it wasn't without its issues and 588 - > challenges, and it was definitely, you know, I was 589 - > traveling every four to six weeks in a different state in 590 - > the US, but the way that we came together was really important. 591 - > I think we got something really tangible at the end of it for 592 - > the customer. 593 - > The website looked fantastic, it was driving good revenue, 594 - > good ticket sales. 595 - > We were averaging the basket, and we were, you know, we were 596 - > doing lots of add-on um opportunity there as well.

597 - > But I think for me, just that like I was like, wow, this is 598 - > what it's like to be in technology, and actually you can 599 - > see the change. 600 - > Like, you know, Beck, she talks about being at the forefront 601 - > and seeing the impact of the customer and seeing the ability 602 - > of them to have a really good day out with their families and 603 - > to really make the most of their experience and their time was 604 - > great. 605 - > And to see that it was so fast, and then we saw the impact on 606 - > the revenue say commercially was brilliant as well.

607 - > But all of that came together packaged, along with the feeling 608 - > that you were part of something special was a really special 609 - > time. 610 - > Zoe: Wow, I want to be part of that team. 611 - > It's amazing. 612 - > But as you say, the collaboration and getting to a 613 - > point where you're a high-performing team because of 614 - > the way you're working, and then seeing that impact is is 615 - > phenomenal.

616 - > It's fun. 617 - > Rebecca, what about you? 618 - > Rebecca: Um, I'm gonna take a slightly different lens on it. 619 - > So I'm gonna talk a bit, I think one of the my sort of 620 - > programmes that went well was that I'm gonna talk about the 621 - > scoping of a program.

622 - > So that's sort of from a conception of an idea through to 623 - > sort of getting uh exco and then board approval. 624 - > So we had a an aging, um many people say legacy, we quite like 625 - > the word heritage. 626 - > Um that makes it sound very nice. 627 - > Zoe: Rebrounding.

628 - > Rebecca: Yeah, I've I've stolen that with pride from someone 629 - > else. 630 - > I'm gonna take no credit for that one. 631 - > Um uh our online uh web platform, um, and it was um an 632 - > old French platform, so some of it was written in French, and it 633 - > had five decimal places. 634 - > It was um it was it was great.

635 - > I mean, it did a good job, and we called it Nemo. 636 - > Um, and basically, um we we started from the very beginning 637 - > of we need a new web platform, um, and we scoped a big 638 - > omnichannel front office program to move to Salesforce, which is 639 - > the platform we have today. 640 - > And I think going through that process of it's a little idea to 641 - > what does it look like, what are the benefits, um, how's it 642 - > going to deliver on your vision? 643 - > What's your commercial levers?

644 - > What capability do you need? 645 - > What's your roadmap? 646 - > And then really the stakeholder engagement and buy-in, and 647 - > taking people on that journey from oh, maybe we should do this 648 - > too. 649 - > Actually, I'm going to sign up to a multi-million pound program 650 - > that is going to be very difficult, very challenging, um, 651 - > but probably a lot of fun and ultimately drive a lot of good 652 - > results.

653 - > I love that process. 654 - > Um, I think understanding what people want from a program, um, 655 - > where you can make the biggest impact, what questions you need 656 - > to answer as you go through that process, um, I think it's 657 - > really good. 658 - > And I think it's often a bit of a project that's probably 659 - > overlooked or seen as less complicated. 660 - > Um, and sometimes I think it can be because the delivery can 661 - > be extremely challenging.

662 - > But getting everybody around the table to agree to something, 663 - > buy into something, and actually say yes, um, I think 664 - > there's a real um there's a real Sense of achievement when that 665 - > happens. 666 - > And so and then we launched about 18 months later. 667 - > And we're still on the Salesforce platform today. 668 - > And it really has allowed us to sort of choose supercharge our 669 - > online business and platform from something that was we were 670 - > sort of quite worried and concerned about being aging and 671 - > heritage.

672 - > And now we've got a scalable and performant platform. 673 - > Zoe: Amazing. 674 - > And even you know everything you talked about, I mean, you 675 - > talked about when you first started at Curries and some of 676 - > the skills that you learned around stakeholder management 677 - > and engagement, and like they are the key skills that you need 678 - > in in tech, all around whether you're working with stakeholders 679 - > in your business, with suppliers, with clients in my 680 - > case.

681 - > But it's so important to understand what they really want 682 - > out of it so that you can take them on a journey. 683 - > But it also helps manage things when they go a little bit 684 - > wrong, right? 685 - > So it's really really key always guaranteed. 686 - > Fantastic.

687 - > Both very different stories but demonstrate the the highs and 688 - > how they can come in in the career in your career and in the 689 - > workplace in very different ways. 690 - > So on to the the good, the bad and ugly of digital 691 - > transformation now. 692 - > This is what we're here to talk about. 693 - > So I'm keen to hear from each of you just in terms of a key 694 - > moment of success in leading a transformation.

695 - > Rebecca, shall we start with you? 696 - > Rebecca: So for me I think um one of the times at Curry's 697 - > we've had to pivot extremely quickly and rapidly is during 698 - > the pandemic. 699 - > Yeah. 700 - > And so there was a number of key projects that we worked very 701 - > closely on to get over the line in an extremely short period of 702 - > time.

703 - > And I think for me it was an incredibly difficult time for 704 - > the nation and for people personally. 705 - > But there was a real sense of rallying together knowing you 706 - > had to get stuff done and that was because from Curry's 707 - > perspective one day we'd gone from 30% of our revenue just 708 - > under trading through websites to actually being it's the only 709 - > channel that's available and it's an 100% and all of our 710 - > stores were closed. 711 - > And that's crazy to think about that now right it is you often 712 - > reflect back and you go how did that happen?

713 - > And so at Curry's there was a number of things we a number of 714 - > things we wanted to do but one of them was around how can we 715 - > open the stores and offer a click and collect proposition 716 - > that's going to be safe for our customers and also allow us to 717 - > keep some of our colleagues unfurlow and safe while while 718 - > interacting with the public. 719 - > And I think why it was so important is because actually a 720 - > lot of what we sell washing machines, fridge freezers are 721 - > actually essential items that people need in their everyday 722 - > life and also a lot of it is laptops and stuff for kids that 723 - > needed to be able to do homeschooling whether it was 724 - > iPads or tablets and and laptops.

725 - > So actually there was a real sense of we need to stay open we 726 - > need to be able to provide people with this tech to enable 727 - > their lives during a very difficult period. 728 - > And so we managed to implement sort of a contactless click and 729 - > collect version working with a a supplier that allowed you to 730 - > rock up to place your order online rock up to curries pull 731 - > into a parking bay scan a QR code the pop your boot and a 732 - > curries colleague would run out pop it in your car and you could 733 - > sort of go off and so that was something we managed to roll out 734 - > within three weeks and I think that's one of the things that 735 - > was sort of most when I reflect back sort of most rewarding 736 - > because of the sort of alignment to be able to help people in 737 - > that time so so that was a real um a real great opportunity.

738 - > Zoe: Yeah amazing because obviously it's an unimaginable 739 - > situation that nobody could have ever really thought through and 740 - > then in the moment and as you say within three weeks you were 741 - > able to do something that actually touched people's lives 742 - > and made a big difference at a very stressful time. 743 - > Di: Dianything you could I think linked linked to what Bex has 744 - > just shared like I joined Curries in COVID so I joined in 745 - > November of 2020 and when I joined Aaron had buddied me up 746 - > with Bex which was great and at the time Shop Live was being 747 - > released as a POC and Bex was handing that over to me and Shop 748 - > Live was again similar to what Rebecca had said around being in 749 - > store it's a colleague in a store that a customer could use 750 - > your laptop or phone into the store and you could have a live 751 - > video one way so the customer could see the colleague but the 752 - > colleague couldn't see into the customer's home and you could 753 - > have a direct video call so it felt like you were in the store 754 - > with a colleague they could show you around products they could 755 - > demo things for you and you could then make a purchase and 756 - > they would ship it to your house and so that was called Shop 757 - > Live and that was the first project I worked on in Curries 758 - > taken over from from Bex and we productionised that basically 759 - > and rolled that out to all of our stores across the UK and 760 - > Ireland and then that became Repair Live which was the way 761 - > you could also take the same technology video technology and 762 - > if you've got an issue with your washing machine your TV or your 763 - > laptop you could again go online click Repair Live and it 764 - > would take you through to an engineer that you could talk to 765 - > show them what was going on with your product and they would 766 - > walk you through how you could solve that if they couldn't 767 - > solve it you could send that in and they would help repair it 768 - > for you and that has been such an innovative piece of video 769 - > technology and ways to interact with people that felt like 770 - > you've been served from the comfort of your own home 771 - > protecting people but still keeping the business running and 772 - > then actually how you could evolve that POC into something 773 - > more that was able to to sustain and we still use Soda and 774 - > repair live in our in our LUC centre because I I'm a big fan 775 - > of user experience and solving real customer problems and these 776 - > are both great examples of where you've identified a need 777 - > and delivered on it.

778 - > Zoe: What about any situations where you had to rethink 779 - > something do you have any examples of that? 780 - > Rebecca: I've got quite a few I think which is good I think it's 781 - > a good thing because I think you I mean things are constantly 782 - > changing. 783 - > We've talked about how rapidly technology is but also retail as 784 - > an industry and therefore things are constantly changing 785 - > and I think it's really important that you can reflect 786 - > back and say oh what I did six months ago maybe even two or one 787 - > isn't where it needs to be now and we need to pivot or evolve.

788 - > So I I I only ever see that as a positive thing. 789 - > And and so one of the areas we had and a program we decided to 790 - > pause was we've got our own in-house built returns and 791 - > repair system that we use today and there was a big appetite 792 - > internally in order to look at external suppliers and providers 793 - > and see um who in the market could look to do that. 794 - > And so we did a scoping exercise we looked at vendors we 795 - > worked out who it is and I think from a um maybe sort of 796 - > single digit transformation it went to multi-digit very 797 - > relatable for anybody that's doing these types of programs 798 - > and I think what it made us do is really go do is this what we 799 - > want to do?

800 - > Does the business case make sense? 801 - > Is it really going to supercharge us and and put us 802 - > where we want to be or actually what are the alternatives can we 803 - > do nothing in this case we didn't want to because it's such 804 - > an important part of our business as Di mentioned repairs 805 - > is um we have a large operation in Newark and it's something we 806 - > are very proud to offer our customers to be able to keep 807 - > items sold and support our customers in their home and and 808 - > so we actually we made the decision to actually pause that 809 - > program and instead invest a small amount of money into our 810 - > existing systems.

811 - > How can we modernize what we have today and over the last 18 812 - > months or so we've moved the the platform into the cloud we're 813 - > looking at consolidating modernising the integrations and 814 - > APIs and actually that was the right the right route forward 815 - > for us. 816 - > And so I think for me it's about taking those moments of 817 - > pause making sure you reflect and then moving forward and not 818 - > being not seeing it as a failure that you have to change 819 - > direction or pause something you thought two months ago was 820 - > really important because things change and and you have to make 821 - > sometimes those difficult decisions or what feel difficult 822 - > at the time but when you reflect back you know are the 823 - > right decisions.

824 - > Zoe: Yeah and ultimately if you're clear on the outcomes 825 - > there's always different ways of getting to those outcomes right 826 - > it's about looking through different lenses to you know 827 - > balance and check what you're doing which is obviously what 828 - > you did and it's been a success. 829 - > So Di do you have anything to share I do yeah like so 830 - > similarly to Beth I think it's about the pivot. 831 - > Di: So we're doing a large transformation at the moment 832 - > where we're exiting our data centres and moving everything to 833 - > the cloud which in and of itself is is a huge undertaking 834 - > but I think as part of that some assumptions we made 18 months 835 - > ago just around some of the migration methods that we were 836 - > going to use for some of our core applications has proven 837 - > actually to not be suitable.

838 - > So we've had to pivot within that time and say actually what 839 - > we thought in the beginning doesn't work and how can we do 840 - > this differently? 841 - > A because the technology's moved on in some respects B 842 - > because actually our heritage systems are a little bit older 843 - > and they're a little bit harder to move and so actually some of 844 - > that more modern technology in terms of migration or 845 - > replatforming isn't going to be suitable. 846 - > And so to pivot and still protect the business be able to 847 - > move it safely and to do that within a time you know still a 848 - > very short time frame and try to keep within budget is not easy 849 - > but I think sometimes you have to do that right and you have to 850 - > check yourself and just as you're going through 851 - > particularly long programs of work still coming back to the 852 - > business case the scope the commercials does it still make 853 - > sense is what we assumed at the beginning still the correct 854 - > technology and the path that we want to use and if it is 855 - > brilliant and if it's not pivot and I think that's it's a good 856 - > thing to do for the business for the customers and I think 857 - > that's that's something that I've really enjoyed learning 858 - > actually is that there's no failure in that there's growth 859 - > in that and actually just understanding that we don't have 860 - > to be tied to one way of working and that's I think the 861 - > diversity of thought different ways of doing things and 862 - > opportunity come and I think technology enables you to to to 863 - > pivot actually and I think that's really nice.

864 - > Zoe: And also that agile mindset recognising you know that you 865 - > don't have to go along one path as I said if we get to the right 866 - > outcome then that's what matters at the end of the day. 867 - > Right I'm going to move us on because I think we could um talk 868 - > all day um I'm gonna skip now to what excites you about the 869 - > next three to five years um both for Curries but also the 870 - > broader industry and and tech in which we all work. 871 - > Rebecca would you like to go do I keep picking on you?

872 - > Rebecca: Sorry I I think you've done a good job I think okay 873 - > flicking between the two whoever goes first. 874 - > So I think I mean it it's an extremely exciting time I think 875 - > to be in technology at the moment and in Rita more broadly 876 - > there's a there's a couple of things that probably stand out 877 - > for me. 878 - > And none of these themes will be net new but I think what's 879 - > important is they've been around for a while but I haven't seen 880 - > anyone do it with real ease or scale and so I really believe 881 - > there's more to go after.

882 - > So I think there's a piece for me about hyper personalisation 883 - > at scale so really trying to get to that one-to-one personalised 884 - > journey for our customers. 885 - > At the moment we can do it on sort of campaign basis and 886 - > things like that but I really think I haven't seen any 887 - > retailers out there doing it at scale across all their customers 888 - > and I think there's some really good new platforms and 889 - > technology along with Genai that is allowing us to really 890 - > hopefully scale that.

891 - > So I think that's super exciting both from a retailer's 892 - > point of view or more broadly in the industry but also from a 893 - > consumer's point of view because I think it's you want to be 894 - > served content that's relevant. 895 - > Yeah. 896 - > And sometimes it gets quite frustrating when it isn't. 897 - > Zoe: We're all very impatient now because we know what we can 898 - > get.

899 - > Rebecca: Well exactly exactly and and actually that's a good 900 - > point it's about then making sure you're learning from other 901 - > industries because the consumer expectation and what they're 902 - > getting used to and getting acclimatised to is ever 903 - > increasing. 904 - > And then the other piece for me is probably the Gen AI and 905 - > that's no surprise. 906 - > But I think for me it's about how do we balance then what Gen 907 - > AI is going to evolve to do over the next two to three years and 908 - > how you balance that automation with that human touch and where 909 - > do you draw in the line and so I think there's a huge 910 - > opportunity and and you probably can't even fathom how big that 911 - > opportunity is really in the next two years and how quickly 912 - > it's going to move.

913 - > But I think for me it's about um how do you make sure where 914 - > you need to you keep that human touch and you use Gen AI to sort 915 - > of really help with those more automated manual repetitive 916 - > tasks. 917 - > But then you still have that colleague or human at the end of 918 - > the telephone that can support you if needed because there is 919 - > things that humans still do today whether it's complex 920 - > problem solving empathy compassion that really I do 921 - > think it's important that we still have that sort of 922 - > connection and community but I think they really both of those 923 - > elements really offer us a great opportunity in the future to 924 - > really improve that customer and colleague experience.

925 - > Zoe: Amazing. 926 - > Di what about you what what are you excited about in the next 927 - > three to five years? 928 - > Di: Slightly different to Rebecca but connected um I love 929 - > sport and I think the evolution of sport and technology and 930 - > media coming together is really exciting and so when I think 931 - > about how that can change the experience of going to a gym 932 - > which is becoming more of a wellness centre where you can 933 - > also do your work and you can have the human connection but 934 - > it's personalized to your workout or your goals and how 935 - > you use that technology and brands coming together to build 936 - > that customized experience that you're talking about and that 937 - > personalization that you need is really exciting and I know lots 938 - > of people into wearables right now and there's lots of data 939 - > coming through but it's not enough I don't think just to 940 - > have like your watch or your pellet on like people want 941 - > community and connection and I think technology has done a 942 - > fantastic way of like bringing everyone together but it's also 943 - > created this dichotomy of like loneliness as well so I think 944 - > when you bring the media sportness tech together in these 945 - > centres that could be coming around and I think that's what's 946 - > exciting because no one really knows how it's going to evolve 947 - > but it's changing rapidly so you know not long ago everyone was 948 - > crossfitting now it's high rocks now it's like well high rocks 949 - > plus wellness centre and like recovery pools and swimming and 950 - > then oh can I also work there and can I get a really good meal 951 - > and can I interact with people how does that drive my personal 952 - > agenda to overall wellness and but then technology's at the 953 - > heart of it and I think it's almost like underlying it's not 954 - > maybe as obvious but I think that's where some of the 955 - > excitement is for me in watching how brands and collaborations 956 - > evolve and change the landscape using the technology to create 957 - > the personalization to create the wellness to create the life 958 - > that we're all like coveting and creating now but tech at the 959 - > heart of it.

960 - > Zoe: Wow I mean it sounds it feels like we're quite far off 961 - > that right but the opportunity is there because not only do 962 - > brands and organizations that sport etc have to come together 963 - > but also then companies like you and I work in also have to buy 964 - > into that lifestyle and different way of working as well 965 - > right but it does feel like we're ripe for that kind of 966 - > thing as well post-COVID that we've all separated quite a lot 967 - > and we need things to bring us together in again in a human um 968 - > and community based fashion.

969 - > It's exciting yeah got me excited I I've bought in um 970 - > right I'm gonna move now to the biggest challenge over the next 971 - > few years that either of you um foresee. 972 - > Di: Di we'll start with you this time to even it out I think the 973 - > pace at which technology is changing is a challenge and I 974 - > think when we look at the ambition of Curries and we are 975 - > really ambitious and how we support our customers and our 976 - > colleagues in that change the legacy or heritage systems that 977 - > we work within and transforming that at a pace that is still 978 - > commercially viable that gives the customer what it wants I 979 - > think that's really interesting and how we navigate that and 980 - > look in Curries to do a fantastic job of investing in 981 - > transformation and Rebecca you talked about it right at the 982 - > beginning where we changed our online front end platform to 983 - > Salesforce and I feel like that was like one of the first big 984 - > transformation pieces we've done and since then Curries have 985 - > been building on that trying to remove some of the legacy and 986 - > the heritage applications that we've got to create the newness 987 - > but balancing that with commercial investment making 988 - > sure we can still move at pace but then how do we unstitch some 989 - > of the legacy to bring in the new but keep it pacey as well I 990 - > think it's it's something that's really difficult to balance and 991 - > we're navigating through that and I think the more that we 992 - > evolve and the more new platforms we bring in and the 993 - > more new technology we bring whether it be with Microsoft and 994 - > some of the Viva Engage or the CCAS platforms that they've got 995 - > and we're working with Gen AI with Accenture and building our 996 - > own amadillo platform where we can engage with customers in a 997 - > more um interesting way through through the technology I think 998 - > keeping up at pace with that and then knowing where to pivot and 999 - > where to go next is going to be really exciting and interesting 1000 - > to watch and as from a delivery perspective also really 1001 - > interesting to navigate.

1002 - > So a positive challenge positive challenge always 1003 - > positive challenge. 1004 - > Zoe: Yeah well it is difficult because there is so many 1005 - > heritage systems I do like that I'm going to steal that as well 1006 - > um but it's the cost of doing things versus the cost of not 1007 - > doing them right and this is this is an ongoing challenge for 1008 - > everybody and then combine that with what's available in terms 1009 - > of technology and couple that with customer expectations it's 1010 - > definitely a challenge.

1011 - > Rebecca: It's very exciting um Rebecca probably just to add to 1012 - > Di's point I it's about prioritising. 1013 - > I think there's no end of opportunities and actually for 1014 - > many businesses out there it's a case of what do you actually 1015 - > choose to do and where do you choose to spend your money and I 1016 - > think there is a huge focus on cost at the moment for many 1017 - > retailers because of what's happening with sort of the 1018 - > government and the economy and I think businesses are having to 1019 - > face it into that so there's we talk a lot about our legacy 1020 - > about how can we look to consolidate our tech landscape 1021 - > in order to drive out some of that cost and how can we use 1022 - > things Gen AI to really empower our colleagues to give a better 1023 - > experience and and drive growth.

1024 - > So I think there's a really big focus on that and so picking 1025 - > those use cases picking those opportunities I think is really 1026 - > important and I guess just and therefore making sure you've got 1027 - > the data to be able to do that. 1028 - > And I think what's difficult is because it's so fast paced you 1029 - > don't always have the full picture and all the data and I 1030 - > think so it's how do you gather as much of it as you can to 1031 - > really be able to then balance those more short-term sales 1032 - > driving in-year benefit initiatives versus the some of 1033 - > the tech um tech initiatives that do take longer because of 1034 - > the scale and the complexity of them to be able to unlock the 1035 - > benefits.

1036 - > So it's it's how you balance those two along with the 1037 - > fast-paced innovation. 1038 - > Di: So it's always back to that COVID POC that we started like 1039 - > we want to talk to and like that ability to get them out quickly 1040 - > to test them, test and learn what works. 1041 - > Zoe: So yeah so it's gonna be very exciting very fast paced 1042 - > but there's going to be some um yeah some difficult decisions to 1043 - > make I think yeah and you're right that data the use of data 1044 - > is so key because there's so much of it but what is the data 1045 - > that actually helps you drive the right decisions for the 1046 - > business and get you those outcomes so good luck.

1047 - > Right well thank you for sharing lots about curries and 1048 - > I'm gonna swing back to both of you now with a bit more personal 1049 - > focus and I'm keen to hear what advice you might give to your 1050 - > younger self. 1051 - > So Rebecca I don't know whether that's you going into curries 1052 - > as a very happy very happy I don't know whether you're happy 1053 - > or not yeah I would be 2011 there we go. 1054 - > What advice would you give to your young self? 1055 - > Rebecca: So I think there's a couple of things um we touched 1056 - > on curiosity and asking questions um and so I think that 1057 - > is paramount you've got you've got please ask questions there's 1058 - > no silly question um and and listen I think um as you you you 1059 - > spend longer in your career you realize the power of active 1060 - > listening and I remember I'm sure my nan once said to me you 1061 - > have uh two ears and one mouth for a reason Rebecca and and 1062 - > that is so true and and I think as you um as you start to manage 1063 - > teams um at or you move into new areas of the business or you 1064 - > start your first job listening and and really learning from the 1065 - > wisdom and guidance from others around you is so important.

1066 - > One is be br another one is be brave and give it a go. 1067 - > You will regret not trying it you won't regret giving it a go. 1068 - > Nine times out of ten I truly believe you will actually also 1069 - > succeed you you are far more capable than you think you are 1070 - > other people want you to succeed and therefore give it a go. 1071 - > And then the other one is I tend to say chase skills and not 1072 - > job titles.

1073 - > I think it is very easy to get caught up in to the fact I want 1074 - > this role or I need this title or I need this job. 1075 - > And actually what's important is gathering building out your 1076 - > tool set and your tool belt of all the different skills and 1077 - > things you need so that when the next opportunity comes along or 1078 - > the next role whether it's a sideways move or even downwards 1079 - > depending on where you are in your your life and what's going 1080 - > on in your personal life that you have those skills and those 1081 - > tools to be able to do those moves.

1082 - > And so I think being um seeing that as the thing you should you 1083 - > should follow rather than job titles and is also something I 1084 - > would tell my my younger self. 1085 - > Zoe: Yeah and it's so true and a lot of what you've just 1086 - > mentioned in terms of skills are those softer skills right to be 1087 - > able to active listen and really hear what people are 1088 - > saying we talked about stakeholder management all of 1089 - > those skills are so important and when you talk about job 1090 - > titles you often don't think about the skills that are really 1091 - > important in order to do those job titles anyway.

1092 - > Di: Dive what about you I think I think I would tell my younger 1093 - > self that you are creating the life that you have always wanted 1094 - > and you are creating your dream life. 1095 - > So trust yourself and even if things don't feel like they're 1096 - > the right path and know that you are on the right path I think 1097 - > um you know be curious ask for the help and support when you 1098 - > need it from those that love you from those that know you from 1099 - > those that are supporting you because people do want to see 1100 - > you succeed and I think it's okay to go a little bit off 1101 - > piste and to Bex's point you don't have to know what the job 1102 - > title is and I think it's more around go after what you love 1103 - > what you enjoy what you feel that you're good at what you're 1104 - > interested in and keep learning and I think adding tools to the 1105 - > tool belt adding your skills keep evolving and learning is is 1106 - > how we how you're going to be successful I think and that 1107 - > curiosity and leveraging your network and really working with 1108 - > people around you and being vocal about what you want and 1109 - > being true to yourself is is really key and I think be 1110 - > yourself like you are one of one unique limited edition no one 1111 - > thinks like you no one talks like you or says the things that 1112 - > you do so just believe in that and go with that because that 1113 - > will lead you to where you need to be yeah and if you take a 1114 - > wrong step and you end up doing something you don't like I've 1115 - > actually sometimes found those learnings more powerful yeah 1116 - > because knowing what you don't want to do actually can be way 1117 - > more sort of sort of helpful and directional than um than 1118 - > knowing what you do.

1119 - > Rebecca: So yeah all of those lessons sort of really learn I 1120 - > think to help or really help to come together in where you want 1121 - > to be. 1122 - > Zoe: And I think having that reflection in every situation 1123 - > and I would say this to people on my team if they're working on 1124 - > a on a client piece that they're not loving like well 1125 - > just think about what you're learning or you know what you've 1126 - > overcome and there's always something that generally feeds 1127 - > into what you whatever you do next.

1128 - > So I think and we've said it many times today there's no one 1129 - > path for everybody we've talked about squiggly careers we've 1130 - > talked about motherhood not motherhood runners not runners 1131 - > but there is there there is no one path and I think that's what 1132 - > you have to remember if that's the advice I could give my 1133 - > younger self I would I would tell myself that. 1134 - > Okay we're going to finish off talking about our and title so 1135 - > for those of you who don't know what an and title is um it is 1136 - > about bringing your whole self to work and each of us at and 1137 - > has a job title but owes her and title.

1138 - > Mine is a wannabe runner so again opposites Di um because I 1139 - > sign up for lots of races with good intentions and very close 1140 - > to where I live unlike you I wouldn't travel for a run. 1141 - > I'll go to one close by but I rarely actually do it. 1142 - > So what would your and titles be? 1143 - > Let's start with Rebecca because you caught my eye sorry 1144 - > okay now that's all good.

1145 - > Rebecca: So I really struggled with this and so I was googling 1146 - > what an and title should be and the importance of it. 1147 - > I took this very seriously I felt this was the most difficult 1148 - > question that we were gonna get so um what I picked up was I 1149 - > liked the fact your and title can actually change as you 1150 - > evolve as a person and you can change it. 1151 - > And so I really liked that. 1152 - > And so I went I had two but I had and juggling mum because at 1153 - > the moment I have a three year old and so I have a lot of 1154 - > hobbies and passions I like doing as well but I really do 1155 - > feel like there's lots of balls up in the uh air at the moment.

1156 - > Zoe: The other one is um uh Harry Potter oh Harry Potter I I 1157 - > love a bit of Harry Potter okay and uh so Harry Potter we've 1158 - > won Harry Potter fan I mean I'm also a Harry Potter fan I love 1159 - > the franchise um so I could geek out with you on on that quite a 1160 - > lot but we won't go down that rabbit hole but my and title 1161 - > would be runner in heels because I love running and I also love 1162 - > wearing shoes and so I have deliberately worn heels today.

1163 - > I saw them a lot yeah um so yeah that would be my title 1164 - > because I think it brings together like my kind of 1165 - > corporate more you know my day job and everything but also 1166 - > alongside my love of shopping for shoes and running. 1167 - > Love it. 1168 - > Di: Perfect I love that yeah quite expiring and title of this 1169 - > one and I'm always happy to come and run with you Zoe so 1170 - > I'll travel to you. 1171 - > Okay I'm happy to be your accountability partner if you 1172 - > want well let's talk about that after Diane.

1173 - > Zoe: No need to commit to anything wrong with that. 1174 - > Well okay thank you very much I think that's been hugely 1175 - > insightful the experience that you've both brought to the table 1176 - > and to talk about the good the bad and the ugly of digital 1177 - > transformation but I think what I've talked um taken from it is 1178 - > it's hugely exciting and very positively challenging space to 1179 - > work in. 1180 - > So thank you very much for coming in today.

1181 - > Rebecca: Pleasure Zoe thank you for having us. 1182 - > Zoe: So that's everything from this edition of the Good, bad 1183 - > and ugly of digital transformation thank you again 1184 - > to Rebecca and Di for joining us on the sofa I've always wanted 1185 - > to say that and for your incredible stories. 1186 - > If you've enjoyed this episode please follow or subscribe 1187 - > wherever you get your podcasts so you'll always know when 1188 - > there's a new episode to enjoy.