499: Revisiting: Pricing Mindsets for Business Success

Speaker A: Hey, it's Meg. And, uh, before we start the show, I want to ask you something. Do you love coaching but get into a tailspin when you think about enrolling clients? When you sit down to write your bio, update your website, or post something on social media, do you feel a block? Or do you get caught up in coach speak where it makes sense to you, but is it really magnetic to the audience you're trying to attract? That disconnect, that's not a you problem. That's a messaging problem. And it's costing you clients. I've spent years helping coaches just like you bridge the gap between the amazing work you do and using words that actually make your ideal clients take notice and say, oh, my gosh, that's me. And I want to help you do exactly that in just five days. So I'm running a free five day challenge called Enroll More Clients Clarity Sprint. It's designed specifically for coaches who are great at coaching but frustrated with empty calendars. Each day from March 16th to the 20th, we're going to meet live together at 9am Central, give you some targeted activities and lesson, and by the end of the week, you're going to have a crystal clear picture of who your ideal client is, how to use language that actually sounds like them, and walk away with a confidence statement that makes booking a call feel like an obvious next step. No fluff, no vague theory, just clarity that you can implement immediately. Are you ready to fill your calendar so that you can do the work you love? Go to starcoachshow.com five day. That's starcoachshow.com the number 5D a Y. And grab your free spot today. You'll thank yourself for doing this. I'll see you in the challenge. Hello and welcome back to the Star Coach Show. I'm, um, your host, Meg Rentschler. I am so glad you're here with us today. Today. So here's the deal. We are in a really exciting week here at the starcoach Show. We are in full on preparation mode for our 500th episode. You heard that, right, 500. And so I'm busy behind the scenes making sure that that milestone episode is everything it deserves to be for all of you. And then on the home front, I'm in full on, um, party prep mode for my husband's retirement party. So because of those things, I got thoughtful and made a deliberate decision. Maybe instead of rushing in to produce something new, I could bring back one of my gold episodes from the past. And as I thought about it, I wanted to bring you back something that I genuinely believe deserves a second listen. And if you never heard it before, oh, my goodness, you are in for a treat. A, uh, year ago this month, I sat down with a guest that I became instant friends with, John Ray, author of the Generosity Mindset and host of the Price and Value Journey podcast. We had one of those conversations that just stuck with me long after we stopped recording. Now, this episode originally came out as episode 446 in June of 2025, and it got a solid response, brought a

Speaker B: ton of value,

Speaker A: and I honestly believe it deserves to be highlighted again.

Speaker B: This is why.

Speaker A: What I know to be true is that pricing is one of those places that coaches get stuck the most. It's also one of those places where. Where mindset does the most damage. Now, whether you're brand new and you're still trying to figure out what do I even charge? Or you've been in practice for years,

Speaker B: but maybe you're beginning to feel like

Speaker A: you're plateauing, this conversation is for you. John and I are going to dig into what he calls the. The red flags of inadequate pricing. Things like pricing by the hour, accepting every client who comes your way, whether

Speaker B: they are a, uh, right fit client

Speaker A: or not, and only offering one price at one level. Any of those things sound familiar? We also get into the mindsets that hold us back as service providers. Imposter syndrome, the helper trap, the comparison spiral. What we're going to do is step into the generosity mindset that John teaches as the antidote to all of those other mindsets. Now, one of my favorite moments in this episode is when John says that your clients see more value in what you offer than you see in yourself. I want you to hear that and really let it sink in. Because if you've ever talked yourself out of, uh, raising your rates or held back from presenting a proposal with confidence, that one insight alone could shift something for you. We also talk about good, better, best pricing structures and how to have what John calls a value conversation instead of a sales conversation, and what it means to live and price and believe from a place of abundance rather than scarcity. Honestly, every coach needs to hear this. Whether you heard this episode when it was first released or somehow missed is definitely worth your time to either re listen or listen for the first time.

Speaker B: Now, before I hand you over the

Speaker A: episode, just a few things. John's book, the Generosity Mindset, is a really good read. You can find it wherever you buy books. His podcast, the Price and Value Journey, is also worth A subscribe and you can connect with him directly at johnray co or on, um, LinkedIn. Also, if you're not yet part of the Star Coach community, this is a great time to check it out because

Speaker B: we go deeper on exactly these kinds of conversations.

Speaker A: Business development, coaches confidence, pricing, building, the kind of coaching business you really want

Speaker B: with a, uh, skill set that supports that.

Speaker A: Speaking of skills, you actually get core competency, continuing education credits for being a part of the community. All of it is inside a, uh, community of coaches who get it, who are walking alongside with you and who do the lifting together. So head to starcoachshow.com member to learn more.

Speaker B: All right, we'll be back next week

Speaker A: with something very, very special. Our, uh, 500th episode is almost here. But right now I want you to settle in and really enjoy this conversation with the wonderful John Ray. I know you're going to walk away with something you can use probably more than one thing. Enjoy.

Speaker B: John Ray, welcome to the Star Coach Show.

Speaker C: Meg M. I'm so grateful to be with you. You're just phenomenal and I appreciate you having me.

Speaker B: I am, um, super excited. So people who don't know because they weren't in our back pockets, um, I was actually interviewed on John's show on Friday. So we were just talking about how we're new BFFs and how excited we were that we got to spend so much time together to like in four day span. So I'm super excited. Um, we're going to be talking about today, this issue. Are you guys ready for this? This is so important. Pricing, what it is that we tell ourselves about pricing, how often we underprice ourselves or get all caught up in our mindset about it. I'm going to get, we're going to like, I'm going to mine John's mind about all his great experience and give you some ideas of how to approach this concept of pricing differently. So you might wonder, well, what creates John Ray as the person you would want to talk to about that? Well, I'll tell you about that in just a second. I do want to thank you for listening and let you know that wherever you're listening, there is an option to follow the Star Coach show. So whether you're watching us on YouTube, please subscribe. Because on the YouTube channel you get extras, you get tips and strategies. I do Tuesday tips every Tuesday afternoon for coaches and we do shorts. There's a lot of things that you want to be subscribed so that you don't miss it. Because YouTube will be kind enough to let you know when something new has come up. And then wherever you're listening across the platforms, take a minute, follow the show, so you never miss a minute of incredible guests like John Ray and what he's bringing to the show. Who is John Ray? Well, John Ray is the author of this incredible book, the Generosity Mindset, A, uh, journey to business success by raising your confidence, value, and prices. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, your prices. John is a consultant and a business coach, as I said. He has a fantastic podcast as well, the Price and Value Journey, which, by the way, like, I get interviewed a lot, and John is such a great interviewer. He was so much fun. You definitely want to check out his. His show and his book, the Generosity Mindset. I read through it this weekend and was like, yes and yes and yes. Coaches need to hear this. So there's lots of wonderful things that John does. He's a business owner. He's been doing this a long time. But the reason why I wanted to have John on the show is because when we connected, he actually reached out to me to be on his show, and I was like, hello, we need to do a, uh, trade here because my audience needs to meet you. So with that, we have so many different directions we could go in. John. Oh, my goodness. But let's just start with the concept of what are some indicators if we're not charging appropriately.

Speaker C: Oh, wow. We could talk about that the whole show, but exactly, because. Because there are a lot of them. Right. And. And, uh, thank you again for having me. And thank you again for coming on my show, because this feels like a continuation of a conversation to me, so a good one. You know, I call them the red flags of inadequate pricing. And some of them are obvious. Some of them are not. Uh, one of them is, you're pricing by the hour. If you're pricing by the hour, uh, you're pricing inadequately. Um, and we can get into any of these you want to.

Speaker B: But, yeah, I was going to say, what are some. What. So if somebody's saying, well, what's wrong with pricing by the hour? I mean, that's what I thought I should do. What would you say in response to that?

Speaker C: Well, there's nothing wrong with. If you started out that way and you've been doing that a while, there's nothing wrong with that per se. The problem with that is once you get into your practice and you're in for two or three or four years and suddenly you're a shoe cobbler, you're A shoe cobbler. Because there's only, only so many shoes you can cobble. They're only in a day. There's only so many hours you can work in a day. So you're going to max out your income fairly quickly. And then if you try to raise your rates, uh, your hourly rates, what is the client going to say? Well, I don't make that much per hour. Why should you? I mean, they're going to come up with, with objections like that. And the problem is, is that that's not how you should measure outcomes. Outcomes. Right. I, uh, hear you talk about this all the time in your show is you've got to get to, uh, outcomes and talking about, and pricing to outcomes.

Speaker B: So, so that I'm not thinking, wow, did I just get $250 value in that 60 minutes or whatever?

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: Um, versus here's the package that I'm buying or here's the results that I. And it's, it's, it. We're not wanting to nickel and dime.

Speaker C: Right? Exactly.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Excellent.

Speaker C: Another red flag is working too hard for too m, Too little money. If you feel like that's where you are, you've got a pricing problem. Most likely, if you are accepting every client that comes your way, you've got not just a positioning problem, not just too many bad fit clients, but you've got a pricing problem. Your prices aren't high enough. You need a certain amount of clients that are saying no because you're too expensive.

Speaker B: Um, see, and that's something that might be counterintuitive for people. Like what? I want people to say no, but that sort of indicates that you are, you're not a dime store, you're a higher end department store or.

Speaker C: Well, that's right.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: Yeah. And you're focused. And for those who you are focused on, you are the right solution and you are not. Um, you create value out of what you charge and so there's every reason for you to charge whatever you're charging. Uh, so, uh, there's another one. Uh, so these things start accumulating as people get into their practices, as they build their coaching practice and it starts tripping on themselves as they get into year three, year four. I mean, those are my. The typical people I work with have been in their business for a while and they're frustrated because things have leveled out and generally they level out because of pricing.

Speaker B: And that's such a good point because often we're at different stages and sometimes the stage of building hours, building experience, building just even knowledge of who we want to work with, we might do things a little differently. You might offer three session packages or things. I mean, you might offer different things. But to John's point, at some point, if you want to leverage up, if you want to continue to build your business and really throw thrive, what you did to get there isn't the same thing you need to do to get to the next level. And I think that that is so key, um, on what you're talking about. We talked about so many that your book, literally we could like have a eight hour interview and probably not do everything. But one of the things that really struck me that I think fits so well into this concept of red flags of inadequate pricing is mindset that leads us to do that. So do you mind if we jump into your mindse mindsets, um, that get in the way for service providers and then lean into the, the title of your book, the Generosity Mindset. On each one of these mindsets, uh, that work against us, there's a generosity mindset that can counter that. And I would just love to dive into to those, um, where do you want to begin with those?

Speaker C: Well, let's talk about why we, these mindsets affect us. Maybe we can do that. Maybe that will resonate with folks. Here's the problem. If you're a service provider, if you're a service provider, you're selling your expertise. And where does that come from? It's the factory floor between your ears. And what's in, what's in there with all that expertise? It's those mindsets, right? So they're all taking up residence right next door to each other. And in spite of your expertise, you get nervous when you slide that proposal across the table to a client right about, well, oh no, you know what's going to happen? Why do you have that? It's because you're pricing yourself. It's a highly, highly personal and scary thing to do because you are the product. As a service provider, you're the product and that makes you unique and it makes you attractive to a lot of clients. It's also scary.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: And if I didn't just lean into that for two seconds because I know we talk about the fact that what you're selling is the result, but they are hiring you. So they're not hiring a coach there. That just happens to be John, they're hiring John who is a coach. So in that, um, yes, we definitely are selling the results, but what happens in our mindset is am I good enough? Am I, who am I? I Mean, I hear that from coaches all the time. Who am I to charge this? Who, what? It. What if they say something or, you know, it feels very personal, it feels very vulnerable.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that comment. Yeah, absolutely. So we have these mindsets and they include some that a lot of people are familiar with. The imposter syndrome, the mindset of inadequacy. I can never be as good as Meg or I can never be as good as John or some other person that you've put up on a pedestal. Um, the mindset of helping. You'll love this one, Meg. I ran into a group of coaches, I think I told you this on a call. I ran into a group of coaches who. Their, their deal was they wanted to just help people and they really didn't want to charge and they just wanted to help. And the problem with that is if you're not around, if you're not sustainable, if you don't create a business that's going to give you sustainability, you can't help anybody.

Speaker B: Right? Well, because you're going to have to go do something to earn money, which means you're not making yourself available to do that thing that you're so passionate about that people need you for.

Speaker C: Yes, yes, they need you for. So we have these mindsets like that that take up resonance and have a way of holding us back in a lot of different aspects of our practice. And so what I counter that with is the generosity mindset. What I call the generosity mindset and what that means is it, uh, does not mean giving everything away, folks that did. Uh, so let's get that, dispense with that right now. What it means is getting in the head of our clients, getting in and seeing where they see value. And what this leads to, if you really lean into it, is that clients see more value in us, in the outcome, more specifically and more importantly, the outcomes we deliver than we see ourselves. And if you buy into that and if you experience that and incorporate that in your positioning, your business development and your pricing, it will change everything in your practice. This, you'll never go back to wherever you are right now.

Speaker B: So good. So with that, first of all, just like I want you all to hear that again, your clients will see more value in what you're offering than you see yourself. I mean, like, think about that, let that sink in for a second. Often we get in our own way, like we mind read for our clients. Oh, they're not going to think this, they're not going to think that, they're not going to I say to my, to my clients who are selling services all the time, get your head out of their wallets, get your head out of their wallet and, and just off, uh, explore, get curious about what is the difference that whatever you are offering is going to make for, for that person and what would that difference mean to them? What, what would open up for them if they partnered with you to get to the place that they really want to be. So exciting.

Speaker C: Yeah. So, well, let me, let me, I love what you, your take on that. And, and let's just give folks an example, can we yo, let's, let's dig into it. So let's say you're coaching me. I'm an executive. I'm trying to get to the next level. You know, I'm trying to get to, maybe I'm not in that C suite, I want to get to it. And so you're coaching me to get to that point. So what does that outcome? It's not just the added income. It's the prestige that comes from that.

Speaker B: Right. It's the, it's my goal, it's my like ego. I've always wanted to be in the C suite.

Speaker C: I, I, you know, I've always wanted to be there. Okay, so, um, what's that worth to you? What's that, what would that do for you? What kind of self esteem would that do for you then? Um, here's one of my favorite client discovery questions. How does your spouse feel about all this? So, ah, how, what would that do for you at home? You might be vacationing in Japan instead of the other side of the country. Right. The kids will be upgraded in terms of all their activities or you know, your spouse will feel a whole lot better about you and what you're up to and be, be able to do some things that they want to do as well because you can happily, uh, afford that as a family. What is all that worth to you?

Speaker B: I love that, I love that you expand beyond the client into their environment, into their, into their ecosystem because that builds motivation and drive and those are

Speaker C: the intangibles that they see that you can help them with. Right. You can help them with, with the right questions. And those intangibles are worth more to them than they, you can ever see. And that's why I say clients see more value in our outcomes than we see ourselves. We just have to ask and we have to have effective value conversations.

Speaker B: Love that. So when that happens, when we get out of the way and we, what are some other things that you might Ask or explore with clients to help them sink into the value that working with someone else might bring to them.

Speaker C: Well, I think it's just continuing to ask what happens then. So digging in to what happens as a natural consequence of whatever we're talking about at the time and continuing to dig in there and see what I tell my clients is the way you are able to price the effectiveness of your pricing is constrained by your willingness to have a value conversation. We are so content to end the conversation early and not dig in and ask these questions that we constrain our ability to see value where they, where clients see value.

Speaker B: And I'm willing to bet, uh, I just love that insight that it's the discomfort that you listener are feeling in the sales conversation or just in the. And so maybe don't call it a sales conversation. It's a curiosity conversation. It's helping the client paint a picture of what success would look like and what would that mean to them. Take yourself out of the freaking equation if you need to while you are, you know, you're just. What would that look like? What would that experience be like for the client? What would they see, feel, think, experience differently and the people around them like get out of the middle of it and just allow them to sink into that experience and stay there. Stay. I love that John. Stay there. Like it's not like, okay, well I've got to.

Speaker C: Right? Yeah, quit worrying about you. I love what you said and I'm. The folks that are listening to us by audio. Can't see me beaming at what you had to say. But, but it is so valuable uh, because you have got to lean in to as far as clients are willing to go with you. And as long as you can go without it being uncomfortable, if you can pull that out of people, as you said, it creates motivation not just to buy, but it creates willingness to pay. And so. And they start and then when you ask, well, so what's it worth for your spouse to feel pride in what you're doing?

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: And that really gets into someone's wheelhouse.

Speaker B: Right, right.

Speaker C: And that you're hitting them where they are. And you know what, like you said, you made such a great point. This is not sales. This is just serving people. This is being curious and serving people and trying to meet their needs. And that's one of the reasons I call it the generosity mindset. It's understanding what their needs, hopes, wants, desires, fears are. And addressing those so good you actually

Speaker B: say that a generosity mindset uplifts and empowers others. So if you are in that place of serving others, which most, uh, service providers are, if you can think about the fact, how am I serving this person? By uplifting and empowering them to imagine what they can achieve. And yeah, if in fact achieving that means partnership with you, well, yay. But sometime. And this is the other thing, and I know we talked about this on Friday, but I've got to talk about it again. The other thing is that some, you know, you've got to let go of the attachment of, um. Because if you're truly curious and exploring and helping them see what's possible, very likely they're going to want to do that with you because you're the one that's helping them do that. But you got to let go of attachment of, um, like driving home that you're the one. I mean, you know, it's like, I want this for you with whoever you choose to work with. And when you can truly let go of attachment to that, you're far more magnetic.

Speaker C: Yes. And actually, there's some psychology behind that. If we push people away in a nice way, if we say, I may not be a good fit for you, but we need to have a conversation, or you've presented your options, which is important options, not just one option, three options. Generally, when you present them and you say, you know what, I'm not a great fit for everyone, and I understand if you need to do something different. Um, when you do that, it really attracts people to you because you don't come across as needy. You don't, you don't smell desperate. And by the way, clients can smell desperation. They can smell it from miles away if you really need the business. So you, you cannot come across that way. You've got to come across as, I'm, um, here to genuinely serve you, but I may not be the right person. And if I'm not, I'll help you find someone that is love that.

Speaker B: Let's lean in more into the options. What do you recommend people think about when they're pricing around, offering options?

Speaker C: Well, first of all, offer them. I mean, that's, that's one of the red flags of inadequate pricing is you only have one offering at one price. So, uh, I mean, here's an example, uh, of why everyone has different values and you have to meet the people where they are in terms of what they value. So, you know, I'm a cheapskate when it comes to coffee. I mean, I'm going to wait till I get to Meg's office and Let her buy me coffee. Right? I mean so. And, but there are some people like my daughter who, she pounds Starbucks every day, probably twice a day for you know, six or seven dollars lattes, right? And then the most expensive cup of coffee in the world is a cup of espresso at a place in London for $255.

Speaker B: Holy schmoly.

Speaker C: Coffee is like fine wine, Meg. Who knew it? But uh, and they, they sell out. The point is, is that, and I'm not putting value judgments on any of that. The point is, is that people have different price points, different values for any good or service that they shop for or they buy. So you're just meeting people where they are when you pry, when you have a good, better, best kind of model. And there is such a thing in behavioral economics called the centrality preference. And what that means is, is that people do not want to be known as a cheapskate in their own minds except John with his coffee. Or they, or they don't want to be, uh, they don't want to overspend, right. They don't want to think they spent too much. So generally they'll go for the middle option. So if you create a good, better, best model for your service offerings, you'll find that most people will end up in the middle. And what happens if you do that? You will actually have better overall pricing in your practice. By definition, excellent.

Speaker B: Excellent. So it's. And it doesn't mean that you are, I mean create packages that you feel good about offering. At each one of those packages, prices, um, knowing that the vast majority are going to land in the middle, some are going to land in the bottom and some are going to take your, your high value offer, your, your high price offer. But to John's point, vari. Well, variety is just. We all want to be given choice, right?

Speaker C: Mhm. Yes, absolutely. People love choices and you have to be indifferent to their choice. So. Right. So it's their choice. And you're, you don't really care which one they pick. The trick is to make sure you price those three appropriately. And here's an example. That best offering, that Lexus version of what you offer there, you're offering all sorts of value out of that, of that it needs to be higher than you are comfortable with. It needs to be higher than when uh, like as Meg said, you know, when you've got your head in someone else's wallet, boy, that feels really too, way too high. If you're feeling that, then you may be at the right price. Uh, for that best option. Because what does that do? It makes those other two options look a whole lot less expensive. So there's some psychology in that. But if you get too many of those, then you're back in that working too hard for too little money problem. Mm mhm.

Speaker B: And that, that big offer, you really are proud of what you're offering at that price. So it's not that you're just overpricing. No, you're not overpriced. You're saying this is what I can offer at this price. Price. And yeah, it's a big Gulp price for me and for you. And yet look at the results. One thing that I know to be true after 40 years of being a service provider is that when people have real skin in the game, they're far more likely to do the work to show up to bring it. Um, so often it's those high ticket offers that end up creating your raving fans because they're the ones that are getting the results. What are your thoughts about that, John?

Speaker C: No, absolutely. And one of the objectives, just to add to what you said, one of the objectives I hear from folks I work with is, well, I don't have enough to be able to like differentiate between good, better and best. And the problem is they've been giving away best to all their good clients, you know, all their low end clients. And so you've got to differentiate that. And what you're giving with best doesn't necessarily have to be a whole lot of additional time. It could be that you're just accelerating them faster to the outcome. So what they're buying is speed.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so, and those folks in good may be part of a group, let's say, right. They may be part of a coaching group that you've created. The folks that are best are those that you're creating extra value for in terms of not just meeting time, but the resources that you give them, the uh, evaluations, the testing that maybe that they get along the way, the feedback they get from you, the access that they get to you. There's a lot of different ways to add value into that best option that don't necessarily cost you a lot of money or time.

Speaker B: Love that. You also had mentioned in your uh, book something that I wanted to lean back into that I thought of just now while you were talking and then I immediately lost it again in um, so I'm trying to remember what you just said that made me think of something. But instead we're going to go to the, the concept of when when we're pricing, pricing is one thing initially but then we might invite people into a longer engagement or we might invite people to re up. So I hear a lot from well how do I have that kind of conversation or what do I, what how do. Because we all know that when we have a client it's easier to keep a client than getting new clients. So what advice might you give for people who to extend to build that, that long term relationship?

Speaker C: Well what you may do is create a sequence so that good, better, best may be a sequence that you, you will take them in the good part of your offering, you'll take them on, you know, a part of the journey. Mhm. Uh, better you create, take them a little further best you take them all the way right. So that, that you may have a short term engagement that is the good piece of that. And you uh, basically set them in the right direction and it's really up to them to get to the rest of that journey they want to travel on. And that best offering is you're going to hold them their hand the whole way and you're going to remediate the potholes they fall into and you're going to make sure they get to the destination. And clients will self select what they want. Uh, it depends on their willingness to pay, uh, their what, what their personal circumstances are, how fast they want to get there. And sometimes they will self select and tell you I can't stand the pain anymore. It's so bad that I want the full treatment. I want the full of dose of Meg helping me get all the way to that destination. So whatever your best offering is, I want it right.

Speaker B: And then it did come back up to me, bubble up to me. The thing that I wanted to lean into also with you, which is that concept. And I think it goes back to several of those mindsets that we get that get in the way. Our imposter, our inadequacy, I'm the comparison. But it's the concept that there is very little that is brand new. There's not brand new concepts out there. It's the way that you're packaging and delivering and offering in the way that you're saying and I just would love your insights on that because I think that part of the uh, mindset that gets in the way is well you know, Brene Brown has already talked about that or you know, Jack Canfield has done X, Y and Z or Tony Robbins. And it's like that doesn't negate what you listener are wanting to offer because it's your perspective, it's your, it's, you know, Tom's or Fred's, uh, or Jody's thing. So what, what would you like to add to that, John?

Speaker C: Yeah, there's nobody that is exactly like you are if you think they are. You're selling yourself short and you're turning yourself into a commodity when that's often what you complain about. Right, Is, is being termed a commodity. And you're doing it to yourself if you feel that way. You know, one of the things that I have people say to me is this book sounds like, particularly when they read the chapter that explains the generosity mindset. Well, this sounds like Bob Berg and the go Giver. Well, and he's a very well known author, tremendous individual, has changed countless lives. Um, you know, he's really an idol of mine. Well, I sent that chapter to him and you know what he said to me? He says this is fantastic. And he says somebody needs to tell this exactly the way you told it, with your own slant. See, this is the guy, you know, this is the person who's known as the go giver. And saying that and giving me permission to take what I learned from him and others along the way, people like Adam Grant and Dale Carnegie, um, uh, and the ancient wisdom we learn, um, in our spiritual journeys. And to take all that and distill that into what, I apply that to professional services practices like for those of coaches and consultants and what have you. He's given me permission to do that. So the point is, is that everyone has their own lane to be able to do that for themselves and lean into that because it makes you unique and it makes people, uh, those best fit clients will want to pay for that.

Speaker B: Love that. I know we're getting close to time, but one of the things that has come up for me is you've worked with so many people around their pricing and that's, that's your specialty, that's what you do. What have you learned about people's progression? Like a lot of people who are listening might be at the beginning of their journey and they're, they're just trying to figure out how to get their feet under them and how to. What they might need to think about and do. And then there's others who have been in business for 25, 30 years and maybe they have gotten stagnant. Maybe they, I mean, they might need a different message. So John, I'm, um, throwing it to you to kind of give some messages across the lifespan of a service provider when it comes to pricing.

Speaker C: What a great question.

Speaker B: I know, Big question.

Speaker C: Yeah, the big question. And a great question. So thank you. Well, one of the reasons I call my podcast the Price and Value Journey is that it is a journey, folks. It's a journey. Look, when I started out, do you think I would came out of the business womb fully formed and talking? No, I was slobbering over myself as well. And that's the reason I got passionate about this subject of pricing. So if you have started out and you're pricing by the hour, no shame in that. The question is what you gonna do about it? Right? And make steps to go to the, to the next level, to start thinking about value pricing, to start introducing options. Um, if you've been at it a while, then everyone else is raising their prices around you and you've got to do something about that. Because marketing a pricing is a marketing indicator. It's an indicator of poor quality, it's an indicator of high quality. So if your pricing has been passed by, by everyone else around, then you need to do something about that. I mean, I'm working in a, in a firm right now where some of the older attorneys that haven't raised their hourly rates in years are now getting out priced by the young bucks that are in there, the younger, uh, women and men that have come into the firm. And it's like, what's going on here? Right? So it's a journey. And you've always gotta be after this every, all the time, have a policy around reviewing your pricing and doing that regularly and making that a specific part of what you do. And every, not just every year, but within that year, how you're going to continue to refine and increase your pricing.

Speaker B: So good. And I think that sometimes we get so caught up in delivering our service or focusing on our client that we're like, oh my gosh, I've, like, I haven't reviewed my own, the business of my business. I've just kind of fallen into a pattern. And maybe that pattern isn't serving you so well anymore. Or somebody's looking at that and thinking, well, is this person not as good as this other person? Because. Because their price is, is so much less. I think that, you know, we look at a product and we're like, can it be that good? I mean, just think about your own, think about the last time you bought something. Yeah, we're all for that bargain sometimes, but we're, we're not necessarily thinking we're getting the Lexus if we're paying for the Ford Focus or whatever.

Speaker C: Well, that's right. And here's where you're ultimately wanting to go. You want to have a choice. And that choice is to be able to work less and make more. And if you price adequately, that's the place in your journey you can get to. You can have fewer clients and make more money. And you've got choices on, um, whether you want to spend that extra time in your business or with your family or with your favorite outside activity, whatever that is. You've got choices and that is powerful.

Speaker B: Our clients like choices and we like choices. Choices are a good thing.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Finally, I'd like to maybe talk a little bit about just what sort of your belief and your mindset about the abundance of the universe. Uh, like when we step into abundance versus scarcity. Take it away.

Speaker C: Wow. I love that question. Because underlying all this is my belief that if we, that the universe is a constantly expanding, abundant place, it's not a place of scarcity, it's not a place of, uh, it's not a dog eat dog world. I'm sorry. It's not that. It is a place that if you give, you will get back. If you give to the universe, it will come back to you. And the marvelous thing in living generously in that way is it will come back to you in surprising ways that you never thought possible. And, and it makes life just bountiful and joyful. So that's, I'm, um, so happy you asked that question because to me, that's part of the deal is living with joy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, gosh. You just like, just lit me up with that. So as we are closing out our conversation about pricing and mindset and um, leaning into a generosity mindset in an abundant universe, what, if anything, have we sort of left what. Actually, let me switch that around on you. What do you want people to walk away with thinking about as final thoughts?

Speaker C: Uh, I think this concept of simply understanding that clients see more value in you than you see yourself, and understanding the implications of that and letting that roll through your practice, not just in the way we were talking about it in terms of how we talk to clients, but how we communicate with them in our marketing. What does our website say, our social media posts? How do we talk about ourselves? What do our strategic referral partners, how do they refer us? Right. So when you, when you understand this and let it roll through your practice, it will change everything in such a positive way. So, uh, I can't underline that strongly enough. The implications are profound.

Speaker A: Oh, good.

Speaker B: So today we were able to look at what are the red flags of inadequate pricing? What are the mindsets that, that are potentially holding us back? And how can we instead lean into a generosity mindset? What kinds of options and choices do people love that can actually invite them into working with us in a way that creates sustainable business, that creates different tiers and, uh, positioning for our business development? So many good things. We talked about an abundant universe. We talked about getting your head out of other people's wallets so that you can, uh, offer what you feel good about after you're curious with the client. What does the client really, really want? That and so much more. I cannot recommend the generosity mindset high and high enough because it was just a fantastic read. It reinforced a lot of things that gave me other things to do to think about. So I thank John Ray for that. John, if people want to connect with you and follow your work, what's the best way for them to do that?

Speaker C: Well, Meg, first of all, thank you again so much. I mean, I'm so honored to be on your, your show and, um, to have this conversation with you. You're fantastic and do great work and it's an honor truly to be with you. So folks can reach me at johnray Co is my website. You can also email me directly. John Ray dot co. Uh, I'm on LinkedIn where I post pretty regularly on these topics. So John Ray one. And if you want to know more about my book and find, uh, out where to buy it, the generosity mindset.com will help you out there.

Speaker B: Excellent. And of course, John's podcast, the Price and Value Journey is a gem. So check that out as well. I want to thank all of you for taking time out of your busy days and weeks to join us on this exploration, to show up each week on Wednesdays for a brand new Star Coach episode and to remember that we are all here on this earth together. We're here together to support one another, to challenge one another to grow together. Because the heavy lifting is far less heavy when we're doing it together. So be kind to yourself, be kind to others. Do me a favor, subscribe wherever you're listening so that I can continue to bring great guests like John to you and we can explore strategies, tools and resources to help you be your best. So until next week, this is Meg Renschler wishing you the very best for your success. And once again, thank you, John Ray, for being with us.

Speaker C: Thank you, Meg.