Beyond the Hustle: Preventing Burnout in Tech Leadership

Adin Herrich: Welcome back to another episode of spherecast. Sphere's uh, a bi weekly conversation with entrepreneurs, business and tech leaders offering practical advice on technology, innovation and leadership. I'm your host Adin Herrich. And today we are diving into a topic that hits close to home for a lot of tech burnout. Our guest Nicolas Kava has been through it all. From founding multiple startups, scaling teams to hyper growth, leading engineering at companies like Zendesk, and now coaching founders and CTOs on how to scale sustainable without burning out. Nicolas has a unique blend of experience. He's seen the beauty and the cost of building fast. And today we'll unpack what it really takes to teach tech teams without losing yourself along the way. Nicolas, welcome to the Sphere cast. Great to have you here. So Nico, let's start from the beginning. For those who might not know you yet, um, could you give a quick snapshot of your journey so far and what uh, led you to where you are today?

Nicolas Kava: Yeah, um, so to summarize, uh, so I'm originally from France so I started my career there. Uh, but uh, the thing is that I started my career during the financial crisis from uh, 2008, you know, so already I started uh, the hard way I would say. So I had to move to Paris, uh, but I was from the south of France to land my first job so it was not easy already uh, and earlier in my journey I started to learn how to be creative, adapt I think. And uh, also at the same time I was already an entrepreneur building startup on the side, uh, but I had to provide for my family. So here I was. And then I decided to move to Canada. Uh, so I uh, immigrated here and uh, I discovered Snow Winter. I was fun and uh, I keep uh, I kept like going on, on my uh, tech journey. So I started as a developer but I went uh, quickly as a tech leader and then a people manager. And so I, I kind of uh, became uh, very passionate about um, helping uh, people, uh, personal development. Eventually understood that leadership come also from uh, coaching, serving others. And uh, all of this uh, led me to really dig into the world of uh, self awareness, understanding, uh, who you are, who we are, our identity, what we want to do, our needs, etc. And uh, yeah I think uh, that's also led me to all the experience I had through uh, the difficulties, challenges, uh, and burnout I had also through my life and uh, what I became today and who I want to serve and how also.

Adin Herrich: Yeah, yeah, well that's a, that's a good uh, you know Bridge to, to the talk that we're gonna have today, I think for our audience. Right. So I know some people who have one burnout, but I don't know too many who have two. And you know, during our, our uh, you know, get to know each other call, um, you said you, you have that twice. So I would love to know any other ones. Definitely would love to know, you know, what were the, the moments that you made you realize you hit that point and how did you, you know, recover uh, from that, you know, and how did it look that to you?

Nicolas Kava: Yeah, it's a good question. So the first uh, during the first burnout I never experienced, experienced that. So I did not really understood the um, the, the you know, the feelings in my body, the emotion going through my head, uh, what happened around, around me that actually could have like helped me like understand identifying that I was burning out. Um, it's the second time actually. I, I knew all of that. I, I identified the feelings, I identified the emotion, etc. I was aware but I was burning out. But I, I decided to keep pushing through because I had to. I had responsibilities for my family, for my job. And for some reason I decided that sacrificing myself was a good choice to do at this time. Um, I learned about that. Uh, but yeah, the second time I burn out while knowing that I was burning out unfortunately. So I would say that uh, uh, the first things that happen when you burn out, when you start to burning out. So first of all it's a multi level process, right? It's not like you pass from zero to burnout. It's like burning out level one, level two, level three. And there is multiple level of burnout. Sometimes it takes longer to recover. It depends on the person is very contextual, situational. That's the first thing. And uh, I think one of the first symptoms that uh, the first thing you can identify is how you are with your environment around you. Like are you like on the edge? Are you like taking things personally? Are you uh, being more maybe toxic, uh, unintentionally you have toxic behavior. Are you like replying harshly? I mean, you know this kind of uh, all you react actually to the little things in your daily life because when you are burning out actually every detail, everything that happened in your life, even the tiniest things actually like so much for you that you react like in a way that uh, is uh, unusual for you. So that's how I, I see it is that you start to feel on the edge, you know, really like uh, affecting your man I was affecting my kids, my partner this time, my friends, my family too in the way I, I was less present for them. Um, so that would be the first symptoms, the first way to identify it.

Adin Herrich: Yeah. So the change, the change happens basically in the behavior towards other people and situations. Right. As, as you said. Interesting. Um, so let's go to the, to the tech culture and you know, because tech culture you know, is still glorifying the grid as you said it. I, I wanted to keep on doing it all nighters, back to back sprints, you know, ship it now, fix it later. So why do you think that so many ingrained and you know how can leaders start changing that culture within their teams? Right? Um, yeah.

Nicolas Kava: Um, so first thing I will maybe share a contrary contrarian take about it but I don't think the culture should change totally. I think it's great to have this ship it now, fixes later culture for the product or for the business. What is really dangerous is to apply this culture to the people. So that's uh, the tricky balance is how can you keep building the products the way we build. Because I think it's really efficient to ship as fast as possible and learn from that, get feedback earlier and pivot because that's the way I think you build a business that is very efficient uh, and prevent you from burning out actually because you, yeah you get results faster. But the issue is that people just maybe because it's simple to think like this, uh, or they are in their comfort zone, they just apply this way uh to build a startup to their personal life, to their team, to their people around them. And that's the issue. Um, so the goal is really to keep building businesses and products this way but at the same time uh, to prevent you from becoming like this if it makes sense. So it means like you, you have to to early when you start to build a business, a startup you have already to put in place systems that prevent you from uh, working uh endlessly like uh, uh being self aware about as I said the feelings and emotion going through in a daily basis really uh, a daily basis like adapt, revise uh what you do and how you behave uh with your work and your surrounding and, and and make sure that you have like non negotiable in your life. Uh so and it applies to your, your team too. Like one of the non negotiable I have with my team is that never blame. For example it's like uh, you, you, you have the right and you are authorized to fail. You are authorized to make Mistakes, you are human, uh, we have to be vulnerable too. Another leader. I think it's really important to be human, show your weaknesses, uh, communicate about them because ah, first it helps you. It feels good to say that because you will find people that feel the same. So you will normalize your struggles. But also what it does is that it creates a psychological safety for your team and, and your team, uh, in return will also be vulnerable and express that they are tired, fatigue, et cetera. And so that's data you can use to make sure that you sustain this space. Because startups will always be fast. You will never like, there is no way you go through uh, around that. If you build a startup you will have to assume that uh, you will always have work, will always be fast. So the goal is really to build non negotiable with yourself and your team and make sure that you around this constraint, you build a culture that is able to shift fast for your startup. If it makes sense, that's the way I will approach it. Yeah, all right.

Adin Herrich: Yeah, definitely understand that. Um, so let's go maybe into how to cure burnout, right? Um, so in our talk you said also that delegation could be a prevention tool. So what does that mean in practice, Nico?

Nicolas Kava: Um, so the first thing is that um, especially as a founder, uh, you want to be in control, right? You are passionate about what you are doing. You started maybe alone or maybe with a co founder, uh, or two. Uh, so the feeling of creativity you gain from that, the entrepreneurship. So it's like you feel in control. You do sales, you do marketing, you do everything, uh, there is nothing stopping you. The sky is the limit, right? The issue is that uh, as soon as you start to scale, uh, it becomes hard, it becomes a burden because eventually you need really to focus on 1, 2 areas because it's becoming too much. At the beginning it's simple, you are pre product market fit. Uh, but after that, after market fit, you start to, your brain is needed elsewhere. Your brain is needed on a particular area of your business and you keep trying to have this mindset of being in control. So you may be micromanaging, uh, micro editing what your team is doing, et cetera. And you have also difficulty to trust because it's your baby. You know, it's something you build from scratch. So you really want the team to follow your vision and so you tend to be there in their operation daily. And that's the issue. Uh, and this is where you need to learn to delegate. This is where you need to learn that your role as a leader is to actually to serve your team. Um, because um, actually the customer is not anymore the person you need to focus on. You need to focus on your team and your team will focus on your customers. So actually your customer as founder is your team. So uh, because um, burning out really is about like uh, uh, is about like keep doing these things that you used to do as an early stage founder, uh, and at a scale that is not sustainable anymore for you if it makes sense. So um, you have to learn the skills on how to delegate properly to share this vision, to make sure everyone is aligned as much as possible. Because the more you align your team, the more you will be able to delegate to them, the more you will be able to sleep at night knowing that your team has your back. So um, yeah, uh, if you want to claim back hours is really the best way. Like I don't know, you are doing marketing 10, 15 hours a week, uh, your brain is better doing business development or sales. Well, you need to delegate. That's the best way and the fastest way to claim back this 15 hours a week for example.

Adin Herrich: Yeah, interesting put there. Um, and I can definitely say it is definitely true. Also when I look back I worked at a couple of startups, um, and, and delegation. I, I saw that especially the, the you know, the founders as you said it, you know, have really hard time letting go of their uh, so called baby if I may put it, you know. Yeah, um, so which, which I understand, which I understand but I think um, I don't know who quoted it and who said it but uh, it's, it's really true that the best companies, startups and scale ups um, are the ones that actually can function without the CEO. Which means that you know, the CEO has put teams in place to function without him. As you said it. If you put out the vision alignment, um, they know where to sail to even without you. Um, and I think you know that that's really something that I want to give also to the you know, starting founders, uh, who need to let go and delegate. Um, it is liberating I think. Um, I'm not speaking for myself but I saw it uh, with the founders, um, and I see you're nodding as well Nico. So um, yeah, I don't know if you want to say something on that, what I just commented as well. Please, please go ahead.

Nicolas Kava: Yeah, uh, um, I'm glad you relate and I think uh, many people will relate. Uh, it's really most problem come from the mindset. Uh, and then when you figure out the mindset, you can just implement the system and you will find out that delegating is really a benefit for everyone. It gives opportunities also to your team for growth. But what I want to add to what you said, I, uh, had a manager at Zendesk. I remember one of the things he said every time was, uh, I, I make everything I can to make myself redundant. And that's really beautiful because it's kind of poetic in a way, uh, self sacrifice as a leader. But also it means that uh, technically speaking it means that you are building a culture, a system that your team can actually just operate, uh, fine without you. Imagine you are not there for three months and you come back and nothing changes. Actually everything is working well, everyone is aligned, uh, on the goals, etc. And I think it's every time I think about this because as a leader I think if you are able to build this, it's so powerful. And also it's a North Star vision. The more you tend for that, the more I think you become effective as a leader and a founder. Um, yeah, really, really powerful. Take Iyad M. Yes, Nico, I have

Adin Herrich: a question on that as well. Um, because I saw in my experiences as well that I came in different stages with startups. So I was really with startups as you said it, you know, three people team and you know, let's try to build out something. But I was also in bigger VC already, you know, founded startups Serie A bc and I saw that some founders were not suited for that size of a business, you know, um, and I think they're doing themselves sometimes a little bit. You know, they try to grind and still to do, but it's a little bit too big for you or it's not what you wanted anymore because actually you were the product guy, for example, and now the product has become such a huge thing that you cannot just control it anymore, for example. Right. So I'm happy you're nodding because I think, I think you have maybe some shared experiences. So please, you know, elaborate, uh, maybe on your experience there as well. Uh, what you saw.

Nicolas Kava: It's. I don't think we talk about this enough, uh, because I think there is maybe some, maybe not shame, but uh, I don't think people want to talk about it because uh, they maybe see this as a failure, you know, like why I was so good at being an early stage founder and then I reach Series B and then, I don't know, I feel, I feel less good at what I'm doing or less energized. And something must be wrong with me. I must overcome this. I must learn. I must. And I think there is some kind of uh, you know, like hurting yourself in the process. And so you don't want to talk about it because you, you, you want to overcome this in a way. But uh, I, I can tell from, from uh, my personal experience, but also from CEOs I saw in my career, uh, that actually uh, as you said, I think it's totally fine and totally legitimate to be a great leader for a particular stage of a business and not being so great after that or before that because it's not because you lack skills. Uh, well, you have different skills. You don't need more skills. As you grow in a uh, ah, um, through the stages, you need different skills. So maybe your skills are just better at early stage and not as better later during uh, late scale, late growth phase. And that's totally fine. But also your identity, personality, your energy. You know, there is this uh, concept, uh, Japanese concept called ikigai, where you have to find your, what, combine your energy, where you put your energy from your skills, what, what the uh, world needs. And so I think when you understand that you, you personally, for example, I understood like after my last job that I was not energized by um, late growth, uh, scale ups anymore. I, I'm really energized by early stage because I'm versatile. Uh, uh, I'm curious about a lot of things. I like when it's very fast, when you experiment a lot, you take risk and this, you find it a lot in early stage. Uh, I started to assume that and actually it became part of my identity. But also you will see a lot of uh, tech companies where you will see the CEO replaced by the board because they, they kind of uh, reach a new stage and uh, they decided they want a different profile. And uh, in the past I was like, yeah, that's really terrible for the CEO that was in place. I was happy to work with him. So why.

Adin Herrich: Uh.

Nicolas Kava: And actually I think it makes sense. And uh, as a CEO, maybe you have to understand that maybe one day you will have to um, find someone to replace you. And that's totally, totally normal and you should not be like, ashamed of that. You uh, should not find this as a weakness, in my opinion.

Adin Herrich: No, no, definitely not. Definitely not. Um, okay, well said. Well said, I would say. Nico. Um, so to go into maybe the, the next topic I would love to discuss with you is, you know, you went through multiple companies, multiple sizes, as you said. I learned now also that you don't want to be in the later stage of, of the product or a company, um, which I also can relate to honestly. Um, so on, on, on scaling without breaking basically. So you've managed teams that went through 500% growth. So but you know, what specific systems, rituals, rules, processes did you had as leadership that helped your team perform under pressure while keeping burnout, you know, at bay? Right. Um, so did you learn that only before or did you learn that after your own burnout? And you know, what did you learn from it? And what, what can, what, what advice can you give to our audience?

Nicolas Kava: Um, I think I really learned on the, on the field in the sense that uh, I go and I learn. That's how I operate. I go through burst of doing something and then I learn after that I have ah, that quickly. And that's why I see that it's not like uh, I do something for months and then I after that if it makes sense. So it's really uh, hard to pinpoint exactly when something pivoted in my mind uh, that changed the way I led my teams for example through hyperscale as I experimented. But one thing that was really a pattern across all the teams I led and all the companies and actually it's very rare unfortunately for various reasons is again uh, building psychological safety, uh, being a servant leader, uh because you know, um, and I experimented that through my second burnout, uh especially this year when uh, I was in recovery. I had a very difficult year and um, I saw that I was really fast at recovering from that compared uh, uh, uh, uh at my previous challenges. Uh, why? Because it's all about the mindset actually. Um, it's all about being safe to just express uh, what you are going through and finding support around you and uh, things that you can go forward and normalize what you are going through. And all of this comes from psychological safety, having a leader that actually as your back is also going through the same thing. You don't end up hiding all of this so you don't end up hurting yourself. And um, what I learned is that by building this psychological safety, this culture, it's not that people are like yes, maybe there is some resilience aspect but for me resilience is about how fast you recover from it. So what I saw is that my team were very quickly at recover from step backs. And that's really what differentiates uh, it's really cultural leadership, uh, and this psychological aspect, uh, safety aspect, um, and how fast your team is recovering from uh Hyperscale like this, it's like, okay, we have to go fast, we have to break things, we have to scale fast. Fine. But uh, we are here together to learn from that quickly. There is no shame, there is no blame. So we learn fast. The feedback loops are really fast too. Uh, so you learn very fast. There is no uh, tension, conflict because everyone is going through the same things and everyone is open about it. I don't know if it makes sense, but that's I think one of the most powerful tool, uh, as a leader, uh, when you go through a scale phase, um, it really is a non negotiable again to be honest.

Adin Herrich: Mhm. And how do you make sure that, you know, if I may call it like if, if I would be in your team, you know, um, how can I imagine that being like on, on you know, in the team, you know, lived. Right. So let's say like I want to go and say like something has become a little bit over my head. Right. What would you, you know, expect that person to do? And I'm talking, you know, is the door always open to go to you? You know, how do you make sure that, that you know, that culture is lived like that? Um, because I understand what you mean. You know, when you have like a culture of grinders, grinders, grinders, you don't want to be the first one that you know, says like hey, this is becoming a little bit too much for me. Right. So how do you break, break that? And it has to come. You know, I always say like, you know, culture comes from top to down. So you know, how do leaders make sure there is always an open door? Basically, uh, you know, that they, that you know, people can express what they're going through.

Nicolas Kava: Um, I think it's really on the minor things every day. It's already a combination of uh, many things. Ah, the way you, the way you behave, the way you talk, um, the way you, the fact that you remain consistent. Consistency is really key. If you are consistent, people will feel safe with you, will trust you fast. And also uh, about uh, having empathy and uh, uh, asking questions. Being a coach actually like um, so what I do, uh, first imagine I start tomorrow with a new team. Uh, my goal is really to put as many feedback loops as possible for my team to reach out uh, naturally or intentionally so we can talk about weekly one on ones. For example, uh, and uh, there will be casual focus like I will just asking question, asking questions. And my goal is really to listen m more and try to help my team to find Solution by themselves and never judge, never blame, uh, really acting like a coach. I don't know if you worked with a coach or a therapist in the past, but they never judge you, right? They, they keep asking questions and eventually you find your own answer. So that's really the way I see it. And, and you feel really confident, uh, to. To share because you, you feel you can be vulnerable. So it's really about being consistent with what you preach, uh, in a daily basis, um, being able to identify also the minor things that people do, you know, and praise that. To praise, uh, on Slack or whatever, like the minor thing every day. Every day. Um, because even someone who is, like, failing a lot because they are going through a difficult, um, moment in their life, there is always something to be proud of, to praise. And you just have to identify that. And if you do, they will focus on that and they will rebuild from that too. So it's really like, uh, emotional intelligence a lot. Being emotional, intelligent, um, really important too. Yeah, I would say. Yeah.

Adin Herrich: Okay, well, thanks. Thanks for that answer. Um, let's go to the next topic. Nico. Um, the. The most hyped topic of 2025 for sure. AI. Right. Um, so you said in our call, AI anxiety is kind of the growing challenge, um, under the leadership. Um, so how do you think, you know, how is AI and the uncertainty it brings, you know, changing the emotional load on tech leaders and teams today?

Nicolas Kava: Yeah, I. Anxiety is really a thing. Like, uh, even myself, like several months ago, I was going through AI anxiety. I was like, I was still trying to find a job, uh, before I restarted my business. And, um, I was like, yeah, so many things. AI is disrupting. I don't know what I need to do next to not be, you know, worthless anymore in the market. I was where I can position myself. So I was like, going through this. It was really hard. I was reading a lot of article about companies laying off people because of AI. True or not, you know, it just create more anxiety. And, uh, that's something that is, I think, really important today. And also why many people are burning out because they fear. They fear that, uh, it will be a danger for their future. And I understand that it's really hard. Everything is going very fast. So first, you have to acknowledge that. Second, I think the pivot point in my mindset is that I understood that the economical factors around AI today are so strong that myself alone, I cannot do anything about it. So the only way I can do, but what I can do is to adapt as much as possible and Maybe tomorrow I will not exist. You know, I still talk to people that say, yeah, what you are preaching, preaching, uh, will age like milk or whatever. Yeah, maybe. I don't, I don't really. It doesn't really matter to me. It's just a tool. Tomorrow we will have another tool. Right. Um, but um, I really believe in stoicism, for example, and stoicism tell us like we should focus on what we can control and not on what we cannot control. And what I can control per year, how fast AI is going, uh, how many billions are being injected into AI. And so my best guess today is to try to adapt as much as possible. So yeah, I was like, okay, let's redefine what it means to be a leader, to be a startup founder today in a world where imagine AI is doing most of my work. Yeah. So I was like, I remember, remember about a law called the Moavec, uh, law that says that machine and humans have different strengths and weaknesses and was like, yeah, that's really powerful actually, because what if I can just take what machines are bad at and focus only on that. Right? And so you have to identify the human skills. So conceptualization, transferable skills, knowledge, the way you can conceptualize many things and uh, creating a vision with it and creating a concept and let the machine just execute this vision for you. That's it. You use AI, uh, to parallelize yourself. What I am doing today for example, is that uh, what I am doing something creative like creating content for my LinkedIn audience. I have uh, three, four, maybe background, uh, background AI agent working for me. I have no shame, no shame doing that because in the end of the day I win so much time and at the end I will review what they are doing. Right. I'm not just uh, asking Cursor, for example, to write a new feature and publish it to production. No, uh, first I'm involved in the prop engineering and context engineering to help Cursor, for example, uh, execute as best as possible. But at the end also Cursor will just create a branch or uh, propose a change and I will review it. So humans are still in the loop. We are not being replaced. We are being multiplied. We are still in the loop. Obviously we uh, cannot just expect AI to push something in production like without additionation. But it just saves you so much time and I think we just have to learn how to adapt to it.

Adin Herrich: Yeah, definitely. All right, share quite a lot what you said there. Uh, so as, as every new technology that comes out every few years. Right. Um, in the beginning, in the first two years, it, it gets really, really overhyped in my opinion as well.

Nicolas Kava: Yeah.

Adin Herrich: Um, and in the end it's, you know, it doesn't mean that you need to use this, this newest technology. It can also mean that actually, you know, for example, ah, automation is, is the one for you. Robotics is the one for you and not the AI. Uh, you know, so it's, in the end it's about business efficiencies. Right. Uh, win, winning time. Right. Um, that's, that's what's all about. Right.

Nicolas Kava: It depends on your goals actually. Right. If you build a business, obviously you build the business to make revenue, so you want efficiency. But if you are like uh, doing something, uh, for passion, you may not want efficiency, you may just want to do some things that passionate you, you know, like coding. It's a, uh, passion for many. Uh, I do code still and I love it. And there is creativity on that and it's like an art sometimes. And I don't think you should stop doing that if you love that. But uh, you just do it as a part of a passion project or something you want to learn on the side. But if you really want to be the business, your goal is to be as efficient as possible because everyone is doing that. So if you don't do that, you will have less opportunities to compete. So it depends really on the goals you, uh, have. And again, if AI is not a tool tomorrow. Yeah. The worst that can happen is that you learn a lot about a particular, uh, field and you moved into the next one. Like I did for the blockchain years, uh, ago when it was Web three, blockchain was yip. I learned a lot and I moved into the next thing and that's it. And I become better at it. I become better at other things because, because of that. So yeah, don't be attached to tools. Yeah.

Adin Herrich: Mhm. All right, um, let's go to the ending questions. I would say, Nico, um, so currently you are fractional, uh, cto. Uh, you work as fractional cto. And you know, how does this model help startup founders or early stage companies, uh, avoid burnout, uh, both in terms of workload and mental space.

Nicolas Kava: So um, I would say maybe the model of fractional cto, like uh, the traditional model, even if it's really like uh, a new concept, uh, does not really focus so much about uh, uh, personal development, uh, mental space, uh, claiming back hours, uh, because uh, you will see a fractional CTO as a pure cto, like really, uh, helping you with a roadmap with product strategy, technological strategy, hiring, raising funds, etc. Yeah obviously that's really part of what I am doing. That's my core skills. But um, because of my experience uh through burnouts, uh my passion about personal development, mental health and the ways that I want to talk about all of these things vulnerably publicly to help people. I found kind of a niche where I combine both because through my experience also talking to founders. Yeah we talk about technical things obviously but many times quickly in the discussion go around like uh, how uh they are overwhelmed or they are uh going through personal challenges or uh, they are like uh doting their stuff etc. I was like yeah, I come up with, with that too. With a combination of both. I can be just a partner in building a business, you know in the general sense not only technical but also accompanying you in a humane, a human, human um kind of. Yeah basis I will say so fractional cto you can see it as already a part time tech leader uh for early stage startup founders mostly because um, uh most, most of them are not technical themselves I will say so you don't have a full time CTO because you don't have uh, the budget and even I don't recommend hiring a full time whatever before you eat um product market fit because you will just uh, I think uh, uh burn your Runway very quickly. And today especially with AI you can achieve product market fit uh as being a non technical founder with the support of a fractional CTO or even alone if you are ah curious uh and learn fast enough, I don't know but uh, so that's where I think the fractional CTO can really help. Uh so it's helping like guiding important tech decision, uh tech plans, uh, costly mistake also that you will maybe do. Uh how many like MVP ICS that are really like taking months and months and months to build where they should take weeks or one month or two max and just uh focusing on a core problem and you end up with a lot of technical debt that is really uh, slowing you down. After product market fit when you try to scale um yeah and I focus on helping people who are burning out or like overwhelmed because I empathize with these people. So I want to help them like claiming back time so they can focus on what they love and not technical like burden. They want to build a business, start to customers doing sales. So yeah uh, I just, I just join, I take all this burden out and I uh, have them like uh being a, a partner for them not just like a simple freelancer, you know, that just execute. Yeah, that's how I see it.

Adin Herrich: Definitely. Cool. Nico, that was uh, one of the last questions that I have. Um, was really a good one. I have one last one to wrap it up. Right. So as in your current role and of course in all of the past roles that you have worked, you have met a lot of tech leaders, ctos, uh, yourself, founders of course, many early stage. But who is the one person you can think of that would be a great guest for sphere test? Um, somebody that uh, you know, can continue this conversation around sustainable leadership growth, tech innovation, digital transformation. For example you're thinking of now.

Nicolas Kava: Yeah, top of mind. Really? Uh, uh, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a good question. It's a really good question. Uh, I met many people interested by the topic but uh, it's still raw. Ah, uh, especially people in tech or technical people that um, are really like dedicated into sustainability or mental health etc. Um, I don't know, it's still a shame, especially in the tech industry. Uh, the fact that there is not enough women also in uh, the roles, uh, like technical roles also does not help because we need more variability and patch, etc. So top of mind I will say. I will recommend talking, inviting Tony Jamus. Uh, he's actually the CEO and founder of Oyster. Uh, Oyster is a company that uh, uh, is uh, in the remote workspace, uh, trying to solve uh, remote work, uh, so talent acquisition and all of this onboarding, etc. Um, I'm less into this kind of field uh right now. But for years I was really into remote work, asynchronous work. Right now I'm focusing more on something else and I learned about Tony at this time and uh, when you see his content on social media, uh, it's really refreshing. I'm really happy that the CEO at this, at his stage are ah, still is still talking about all these topics and trying to spread the word. So I really recommend Tony James, um, really one of the leader. I will invite you, I will invite you in your podcast.

Adin Herrich: We will, we will definitely get in touch. So please introduce me and uh, I will definitely get, get after Tony I would say. All right, cool. Nico, thanks very much for having you on. The Sphere cast was really a great session. I hope and I know, let me put like that that our audience will learn a lot. Um, and it was a, it was an interesting topic to talk about, very valuable. I think we've never done it before on Sphere Cast at least. Um, and yeah, so I would just say we never know if we speak again on another episode or an episode with Tony maybe even. So, uh, let's keep, let's. Let's keep the, you know, the flow going and communication going between us. Nico, uh, I want to thank you just from Sphere and Spherecast one more time, um, and have a good evening.

Nicolas Kava: Thank you for the invitation. It was really amazing to talk with you and uh, having this opportunity to talk about this topic. Uh, thank you, uh, for having me and uh, yeah, I hope I could have helped maybe one person today. I mean, I'm really happy for that, uh, if I did that. So thanks again for the platform and uh, yeah, hopefully we can talk again later in the future.

Adin Herrich: Definitely. You're welcome, Nico. Bye bye.

Nicolas Kava: Bye bye. Thank you.

Adin Herrich: Just gonna stop the recording.