591: Leadership Tension Is Actually Your Executive Presence Test; How Are You Scoring?

Laura Camacho: What if the most difficult colleague at work that you have is actually teaching you one of the most important leadership lessons of your whole career? Welcome back to Speak up, the number one right business communication podcast where we help high performing introvert leaders, including you, social introverts, turn your ideas into influence and improve business outcomes. Because being brilliant does not automatically make you influential. I am your host, Laura Camaggio, your career accelerator and executive presence strategist and godmother. By the end of this episode with sports media personality Annie Hoffman, you'll know in handling pushback, how to replace becoming defensive with acknowledging the concern and redirecting attention to the work, how to maintain confidence, emotional control and professionalism when challenged in meetings or workplace conversations. And why documenting conversations through email while remaining respectful and professional actually protects relationships and keeps the facts top of mind.

Laura Camacho: Annie, welcome to the Speak up develop your executive presence podcast. It's great to have you here. I'm going to just dive in with what are we getting wrong about?

Laura Camacho: Conflict.

Laura Camacho: I hate it. And you're telling Mandy to love it.

Annie Hoffman: I don't really think it is conflict. I think a lot of times it's just a miscommunication about trying to understand where the other person's coming from. And we have to. Mhm. Be good at explaining our viewpoints. Mhm. And then just coming to a happy medium, knowing that you're not always going to walk away with exactly what you want. But conflict's also about being brave enough to have that conversation.

Laura Camacho: Yes, of course, in the work context, there's a hierarchy. A lot of people feel like they can't bring it up because they're going to offend the wrong person and it's just going to go downhill from there.

Annie Hoffman: I have always found that CEOs and I've trained a lot of CEOs very approachable and quite honestly care a lot about their employees. Because a lot of times I would find the employees were afraid to say something. Mhm. Or they were like, oh no, he seems very unapproachable. And I said, uh, that's not my experience. I think you would find you'd have a different kind of relationship. And that exchange.

Laura Camacho: Well, that can be true. It also can be true that while the CEO is super open, the person below him or her and between you, those serve as gatekeepers. Right. And kind of keep you away from contact with that person. I want to really get to how we view conflict. And so you're saying it's just something to negotiate. It's not a binary. It's understand the other point of view. Right. But don't fear a disagreement. Right.

Annie Hoffman: And matter of fact, I work with people sometimes just on office dynamics, politics, and that's exactly what they'll hire me for and. Mhm. So you want to at least open that because how do you really know until you have step into that and have that conversation and let yourself be a little vulnerable. It may not go exactly as you wish or desire, but the fact that you were able to do that, I think you're building your skills to do that again and again.

Laura Camacho: Right, Exactly. Okay, so what if I want want to bring up something about a peer? Let's say I'm on a team and the peer is doing something wrong. We'll just keep it vague. Should appear, ever confront a peer or should that go through the boss?

Annie Hoffman: I personally agree with or believe that you should at least try to have a conversation, to have it in a way where you don't put the person on the defense. Yes.

Laura Camacho: How do we do that?

Annie Hoffman: Yeah. And try to explain. But coming from a place of uh, this is how I feel. Because I think if you put the person on the defense, it's just not going to go well.

Laura Camacho: Right.

Annie Hoffman: That never works. That never works. And then try to dial it back a little where it's not too aggressive and just try to see where they're coming from. And I always tell people when you're. Whether it's verbal or written communication, put it in a way where it doesn't feel personal.

Laura Camacho: Okay. Let's say like I know in tech, sometimes an engineer will fail to put their notes in a certain place. Everybody on the team is supposed to put in certain indicators every week and they're just not doing what everybody else is doing on the team. So do you bring that up with them or do you wait and talk to the boss? Because a lot of times bosses, they're afraid of conflict, so they don't do it.

Annie Hoffman: Yeah, that's true. I have worked in situations where. Mhm. So I literally would write emails in a way that didn't put them on the defense, but just kind of every day to cover myself. I had a situation where I had a boss, he wanted to let go of selling, but he wanted me to support what he said. I didn't even know the person wanted to even have an opinion. And he said, well, unfortunately, you may be the first. Wow. And I said, well, you're gonna have to do that then because I have to live with myself.

Laura Camacho: Good for you, Annie. Did he fire you?

Annie Hoffman: No. But after That I did know I had to cover myself. Mhm. And I had to take care of my team.

Laura Camacho: Yes.

Annie Hoffman: Because I was in a management position. So I have to make sure that I say it in a way that he hears it. Mhm. And doesn't feel like he's being attacked.

Laura Camacho: But don't you think the fact that you stood your ground like made him respect you more and that's why he didn't fire you?

Annie Hoffman: It's funny because I heard from him long after I left.

Laura Camacho: Oh really?

Annie Hoffman: He asked for tickets for sporting events or just kind of funny. But I do feel like you have to kind of also understand a little bit of where they come from.

Laura Camacho: Mhm.

Annie Hoffman: So that you know how to interact in that. I have found, and maybe I'm an internal optimist. I have found that most people are good people. Mhm. They just have their little ways or the little insecurities that's maybe them acting in a way that's very favorable.

Laura Camacho: Well, but how somebody who doesn't feel like so well versed in psychology, like how would we begin to do that with somebody? What is say somebody we have a hard time working with at work?

Annie Hoffman: Well, I do think, and trust me, I've had my challenges too. Yes. I don't think anyone gets away in the workplace without having to come across some of the. I would make sure that I wrote emails, I would make sure that I was sent or being ugly to that person. Mhm. And a matter of fact, I was someone in that situation right now, big organization. And I said, still be lovely. Even though you know that this person's actually saying things behind this person's back and actively trying to get this person. And I said always be lovely. Always. Mhm. You've tried it. You've had a conversation. Nothing really changed. But it's still. Maybe it doesn't show up right away, but in the long run it doesn't go well. We're not doing the right thing. And that's why my client. I also do pure. And I'll tell them I said I am not going to ever lie for anyone. Mhm. Because let's say you don't want to do something are you committed to. But you got to do it right. Because you start doing that, then you make. They get bigger and bigger, those lies and then things. Then your life's a hot mess.

Laura Camacho: Yes, absolutely. I love that you said that you have to live with yourself. I feel like that's so true. And, and I um, firmly believe that in these conflictual situations. Right because we don't want group think where everybody thinks exactly the same thing all the time. Like, that would be crazy. So by definition, there's going to be disagreement or pushback, which may be absolutely legitimate and needed, or it could be petty and mean. Right. But at the end of the day, you want to give your proposals and recommendations the best hearing the best arguments. And I think, to your point, always being lovely, being light and breezy about it, if you can maintain that. So what if we're feeling, like, attacked in a meeting? Do you have any tricks for not letting it show on our face and not growling at people?

Annie Hoffman: Right. It kind of goes back to that old adage. Right. The best way is just to kill them with kindness.

Laura Camacho: Yeah.

Annie Hoffman: Kill them with kindness. Because I had someone as a woman coming up in sports.

Laura Camacho: Yeah.

Annie Hoffman: Starting at 18 years old, and there weren't many women. When I was coming up in it, I remember someone, uh, telling me that they were going to get me fired. And I just kind of laughed and I said, well, it's gonna be you or me, but it's not gonna be me. Well, the funny thing is, I never did anything to get that person in trouble. I never went to my bosses about any of their bad behavior. Okay. And I thought, it'll show itself. And lo and behold, it was as if my boss would be coming around the corner when he was saying something. Uh, oh, uh, okay. It was really funny. So I always tell people, uh, you'll see how it works out. You keep doing the right thing. And I also think, what is this person showing me? What can I learn from this situation?

Laura Camacho: Oh, that's a good question. Yes. And what were you learning?

Annie Hoffman: Well, I also just say to myself, what is triggering in me? You know, what is this person triggering me A lot of times. And I will say, a lot of times it's tied to things in your childhood.

Laura Camacho: Yeah.

Annie Hoffman: Are things tied? And I thought, okay, this is a good lesson for me as opposed to, you know, letting it. Of course it's going to be upsetting. But of course, instead of letting it really. Cause you, like, um, can't sleep or you're upset about it every day going into work. And I say, okay, what is this person showing me? What can I learn from this? How can I grow from this situation? And when I've done that, it kind of separates. That situation doesn't feel as personal.

Laura Camacho: Right.

Annie Hoffman: I love. Because a lot of times people are just mirroring you, and it's a hard concept because, trust me, there's times you would just Want to be like mad at the other person. But if you really take a step back and look, okay, what is this person mirroring for me?

Laura Camacho: Wow, that's really taking the responsibility there. I love that by taking the responsibility you have more control and just the mirroring. And we all know in communication that people mirror each other. Like we both wore pink today. And uh, thinking of the situation is like, this is your emotional personal trainer, like training you to master your emotions, to keep it, keep it together. Right. A lot of times holding yourself together is like, if you can just do that, you're going to be fine.

Annie Hoffman: And it's really funny because it's as if it will be mirrored back to you. It's as if you have to work on that. It won't show up in your consciousness and your reality anymore.

Laura Camacho: Yes. And you know where I have noticed that in my life is through the tone of my emails. Long ago I learned to turn up the positive emotion in my emails like before my. My default is to see communication, especially at work, as transactional. Hey, I need this thing for this reason. Thank you, goodbye. But if you say, hey, it's great to hear, I hope you're having a good day. Things here, such a beautiful day here. I have this project going on and just making it friendly. Then they usually mirror your friendliness back.

Annie Hoffman: That's true. And also what's really interesting is to try this technique where you're not really attached to the outcome. For instance, can you communicate how you feel or communicate about your desire and just let it go? Because it came from a good place in a really place. And it's amazing because there's something about when you're not attached to the outcome, you wind up getting the outcome you desire for the most part.

Laura Camacho: So true. Because the attachment somehow positions us as needy. And that's such a unattractive, uh, energy feeling. And nobody is saying, oh, Laura feels really needy.

Annie Hoffman: They're just like, when I train broadcasters, I always tell them we're all energy. The viewer at home is going to be able to pick up your energy. They won't know exactly what they're picking up, but they will pick it up. And so it's the same thing when we're dealing with conflict. People will pick up your energy. So if you let the person that's maybe causing you issues in the workplace just kind of let it go, I know it's easier said than done, right? This is a great skill to work on. And then when you do that, it's as if that person will not show up in your reality or really bother you anymore.

Laura Camacho: Wow. I think we need to repeat that. So if there's somebody at work that's really. You just, uh. They're just annoying. And I'm sure you have good reasons. You would not be unreasonably annoyed by anyone ever. I know. Like to take away that. Just whatever, you know, Annie's annoying. I'm, um, Whatever. I'm not going to get bothered by her perky friendliness. I'm just going to let it slide off like water off a duck spot.

Annie Hoffman: First of all, kind of. Well, you talked about let it go. I mean, but you let it go because you realize that is showing up in your reality because there's something for you to work on. Uh, okay. So it's almost like, thank you. I still need to work on that. I'm getting triggered because there'll be someone else that'll show up besides that person down the road. It'll trigger that again for you. So once you work on that. Okay, I know this is going to sound a little woo, woo, uh, but okay. Kind of just send love and light to that person. And almost thinking, okay, thank you for showing me that. Still need to work on that. And then let it go. M now still going to show up, triggering you for a little bit until you really have let that go. You'll see that person will kind of just not even be in your awareness.

Laura Camacho: What I'm taking away from your whole thesis of conflict is look for what the conflict is telling you about you. So give me a story. Like, let's say I have Bob at work. I think he's toxic. That's one thing I can say. But what kind of story can I come up with to really detach from my negative feelings about Bob?

Annie Hoffman: So let's say Bob is showing you the things that you need to work on. Um, and he's. Oh, thank you for pointing that out. That's so great. And just be super kind and just be like. And don't let him get to you. And when you see him in the hallway, hey, Bob, how are you?

Laura Camacho: Okay.

Annie Hoffman: And then you just kind of let that energy shift between you and you'll see. I actually just did this recently with someone and they were really pretty rude to me right away. And I was, I was just asking something pretty simple and nice that I thought I was really nice and perky about it. And then I thought, okay, what is this about? Anyway? This person caused me a little bit of an issue for a little bit. And I thought, okay, I need to reframe it. Mhm. Mm. And change my. This person.

Laura Camacho: Correct.

Annie Hoffman: Maybe this person. There's things going on in their life I don't know about. Maybe frustrations or stress. Mhm. At one point I just engaged in a conversation, very friendly exchange. Because I could feel the energy every time I saw this person. It was kind of a heavy. And I thought, I want to shift that. Okay. So I engaged in a little small talk. Right. And had a lovely little exchange wave when I saw her and say, hello, how are you? For instance, even just yesterday, she stopped and said, oh, hey, how are you? So that got totally shifted. So you could do this really with everything. Another one that's very common is I'm not in.

Laura Camacho: Oh yeah.

Annie Hoffman: I have someone that right now, a client that's dealing with that really is getting triggered by this. You have to know you are enough. Uh, he's very, very talented.

Laura Camacho: Oh yes. It's shocking. Do you know that even people who have won the Nobel Prize in chemistry, like something super hard, feel like they didn't deserve it. Like they was just lucky that even with that validation, which is like the ultimate validation that you are a smart and capable human being, is winning of the Nobel Prize for science, that they even feel that that to me was like, well, no wonder, no wonder, as commoners have. Can struggle with that from time to time.

Annie Hoffman: I'm such a believer that we're more alike than we're not. And that's why I'm such a believer in if we just kind of, you know, understand each other a little bit more and try to have some grace and humility. But I also, that's why I'm a big believer in sticking to your morals and your character. Because at the end of the day, that's all you have to. Right. So agree with. I mean, I've lived in big houses. It didn't make me feel any better. I've lived in apartments. I felt the same. I mean, I've done all that and I've seen how these outside things don't really, you know, are going to make a difference. I mean, maybe momentarily, but then it's really how you feel on the inside and who you are as a person and your everyday. I know this is not actually what we're going to even talk about, but what's really fun is to just bring joy to other people. Like I'll have my NFL players, sometimes they'll say, oh, I talked to Maggie, she's such a big fan. I'm gonna have you go to the studio early because I would love for you to take a picture with her. She'd be out of her mind excited. Mhm. And this is how sweet. Most people, you know, 99% of everyone I have found, are very nice people. I said, but just think, I said, you have the gift just by being this incredible gifted athlete to make a difference in this person's life. Right. What a gift that is. And when you use that, you feel lifted.

Laura Camacho: Do you have any like phrases we can use if we're in a meeting and we pitch something and we feel like somebody is just attacking or questioning, you know, for an introvert, that's like brain freeze, a placeholder, we can say while we pull it together.

Annie Hoffman: Well, I do think when you're showing gratitude to the person that's questioning you in a meeting, and I've been in those meetings and just keep focused on the task at hand. Okay. And the work in hand. And so it doesn't turn into like a personal exchange. Right. The other thing is in yourself, just. So Frank is just bringing up some things for me to work on and you're going to still work towards what the meeting is about. And trust me, I've been in those situations because a lot of times, as I mentioned, I was one of the few women I had to change my conversation in my head about that because I'd get questioned as executive producer of a sports radio station. And I was the first woman people question how, um, my sports knowledge or I was always having to get challenged. You know, these challenges would come up and tough. That's why I think I grew these skills so much. Yes. And the resilience. And uh, I actually have thanked my mother for the fact that growing up I had to figure out a lot of things. They were young parents and quite honestly, that helped me because I have that ability to figure things out no matter what the situation is. So there's always positives.

Laura Camacho: Yes. What I'm taking away is this total flipping. Like it's not the other person, it's you. Even though, I mean, it's not that you're doing something wrong and it's just that you're being called to learn how to handle people who, you know, bother you.

Laura Camacho: Right.

Laura Camacho: And we all have people who bother us. But if you can say without sarcasm, thank you for bringing that up. So if you can be the one to be the bigger person who just says, oh, uh, how interesting that you see that. Is there anything else in the energy? Yes, the energy is contagious.

Annie Hoffman: It's almost as if you have to have, you're consciously thinking gratitude for that person. Because then what's interesting is that person will pick up that energy that it's like diffused. Trust me, when you start working on these skills, um, you will be tested. It's almost as if the universe is going to test you because I notice whenever I've been working on changing something, it'll show up even more so. But no, it's okay. You're going to get through it. And then when you go to that meeting, you'll see you have the power. You have the power to really change the energy.

Laura Camacho: Mhm.

Annie Hoffman: That workplace, that being in media, say the newsroom, that relationship with the executives. And you'll see it's really. Quite honestly, I think it's pretty fun.

Laura Camacho: I love that. And you can find out more about Annie's approach to this in her book Loving Conflict, which we'll link in the show notes. This has been so mind blowing. Thank you, Annie. You're welcome, audience.

Annie Hoffman: Thank you.

Laura Camacho: This is really life changing. And how is it free? I don't even know.

Annie Hoffman: Well, thank you so much. I've loved being on with you.

Laura Camacho: Oh, uh, it's a lot of fun. Well, that was so cool.

Laura Camacho: Annie Hoffman was great. My top takeaways include the fact that in reality, executive presence is most visible when someone is challenging your idea. A peer or colleague is behaving badly, a leader disagrees with you, a meeting becomes uncomfortable. That is when you need your executive presence muscles built up. Anna, uh, repeatedly reinforced the idea that the goal is not to avoid conflict, but to navigate it skillfully. And I love her many suggestions for handling tension without getting an ulcer. The reality is that senior leaders don't get promoted because they avoid tension. Nobody does beyond a certain point. Of course, nobody wants a troublemaker either. But if you can remain effective while there's tension in the room, the one thing that can help you is to

Laura Camacho: sign up for the summer camp.

Laura Camacho: Speak up Summer Camp, July 6th through August 1st. There's a link in the show notes. It's 24 daily lessons delivered to you through a private podcast series with one micro lesson per day. Have a fabulous day and I will catch you on the next episode.