Exactly How to Brand w/ Claire Dowdall

Speaker A: Hi folks. Welcome to the Salasophy podcast. Carlos Garcia here and I'm excited today to have a really wonderful guest who I now call a friend and someone who has played a great role not only in my growth as an entrepreneur, but also a huge movement called exactly what to say. Today we are joined by Claire Dowdall. She is a director of Brand for Exactly what to Say and supports Phil M. Jones with a thought leader in the space of communication, influence and impact and shaping the growth of one of the world's most influential communication brands. Through her work as a speaker, she helps leaders and experts build professional brands through the conversations that define their influence and works with a, uh, global community of certified guys such as me bringing that message to the industry. So. Hi, Claire. Hey for being here.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

Speaker A: So I know that that's not the only superpower that you have. I get to have the opportunity not only be friends with you on, on the socials, but you are based out of the uk. So although we're not friends that hang out and grab a pint as they say over there, um, you know, we, we get to virtually see each other's world and share, but from time to time we get to meet in person, whether it's in New York with the exactly what to say community. But I also get to see you. You're a avid power lifter and I know that we have, we share the passion of loving, uh, music and from time to time we've been planning to do karaoke together. So that's, those are just some things we have pending, uh, before we jump into the, to the good stuff.

Speaker B: One day it will happen. I just know it and it will be beautiful when it does.

Speaker A: That's awesome. Claire, for the benefit of the audience, is there anything else that I may have missed from, from your introduction that would be helpful for the audience to know about our conversation today?

Speaker B: Um, it's difficult to say. I think you've pretty much summed it up really well. And if anyone's interested, my background is in marketing. I've been in marketing for over 20 years for various types of industries and products. Um, in the last sort of decade or so I've been more in the training and IP space, the educational business space space, and work with a few thought leaders. So I've been in this kind of area for a little while. But I've worked with Phil for 10, nearly 10 years now, which is madness. Um, I'll tell you, you learn a lot from observing somebody like that.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And um, it's incredible how, I mean I've only had the opportunity to be part of this community for a couple of years now and seeing how fast it has evolved in two years, I'm guessing that in 10 years you've seen even a lot more. But I want to start from the beginning of you being part of this, this movement. How did you meet Phil?

Speaker B: Well, isn't that an interesting story and isn't it always? Um, so ten years ago in January, I at the time was in, in network marketing for a company called Forever Living Products, who, you know, you may have heard of. And I was part of, part of a training program towards a particular milestone in the plan. And um, Phil was the facilitator of a series of training, in person training events that I attended. And um, true to form, um, I was the person who was pick me, pick me. And I was, you know, sharing my story with him and he got to know what I did and at the time he was looking for some marketing support so he got to know that I did marketing. And a, uh, few months later we started working together, um, in a very fast moving, interesting community that we built. On Facebook, which was for network marketers was a month long, um, video a day guided challenge, which in 2016 was quite a new idea. Um, and I helped him to manage that. As you can imagine, there were two and a half thousand people in there and they all had a lot of questions. And we built that and carried it on for eight months in the end into um, a monthly membership. So that was a really interesting experience. And as Phil's business has evolved and that involved him moving from the UK to the us, beginning his speaking career, just concentrated to North America, um, I saw his evolution over to the US and when he turned his little set of magic words that he taught for years into a little book in 2018, I was witness to the development of that. And that was a really interesting process and how that catapulted his career through taking that little bit of IP and building his credibility as a speaker through having a book. And he had written other books, but this was the one that was going to really sort of cement his reputation. And in 20, uh, 22. That's correct, January 2022, the Guides program was still kind of an idea and an experiment. And the first six people that attended a certified guide training, um, had the pleasure of having me and my colleague Nathan, who, you know well also, um, in the room virtually. So I wasn't in New York, they were in New York. And um, that was when we decided that this is something that has so much potential for expanding the message for reaching more people without Phil physically having to reach more people, get on more planes, spend time away from family and actually see this work expand and, and gain momentum. And the certified guides program was the way to do that. And as you know, I say the rest is history. It still feels like the present. It still feels like the beginning of something that can go so much further. But three and a half years later, we have well over 50 certified guides, and it just keeps getting bigger and ah, more exciting, which is very cool.

Speaker A: Yeah. And uh, again, every, every time there's something new that comes out, I just think about just like the brain that goes behind that. And you, not only as the brand evolves, you, your role has evolved. Right? You're the director of brand, where you started helping Phil with some marketing stuff. You, you had needed to see, you know, the, as the grow for the need of this. Like the world needs this, right? The world needs to improve communication. The world understands that every relationship could be broken or can be amplified by the way that we use our words and the way that we communicate, not only in sales and leadership, but in personal relationships. And it. I. There must have been a moment, and I think it sounds like around 2022 is what you said, right? Where you must have all gotten together and said, okay, we gotta, gotta really seriously think about how can we make this, this not just a little book, not just a couple of talks here and there, but how do we amplify this and make it a movement? Because there can only be one fill. But exactly what to say has sort of evolved into its own thing. Right? And so I guess, I guess when was that moment and what did you all need to do to be able to separate that while honoring both ideas where, where Phil can still share his brilliance, point of view, perspective, and you know, some of this, this content that is just so powerful, so beautifully packaged, but then still allowing people like us sort of as a folks, uh, who are also passionate about helping the world, you know, become better through communication, honor the work. But while. Yet still we can still share our own original thought, idea and perspective. So kind of separating the movement from the originator, the creator of the movement.

Speaker B: I think it's very difficult to separate them completely because obviously it's Phil's brain. It's Phil's work that he's developed. It's. It's his IP that has just evolved through his own experiences. But you. Do you hit a point as, um, as a personal brand, as the, the deliverer of the work, as well as the creator of the work, where you cannot scale any further unless you build a course, for example. And one thing that Phil always said is that he didn't want to build courses. He didn't want to become a course related business. So given that we are a communication brand, given that this brand is based on and built on conversations, the idea was for it to expand through people, through human connection, which of course is like at the very heart of what the brand is. And that was true to Phil's values. You know, start. Making your conversations count is a key message. Change your words, change your world is a key message. All of these things are to do with humans taking words and turning them into opportunity, into the results that they want in their lives. And you cannot do that just on a screen, just on a step by step in a course. So as, uh, the brand has grown, obviously we know personal brands are huge. They are also where the work originates with one person. They are the amplifier. They are the basis of building a brand alongside. So exactly what to say could not exist without Phil having a brand that is growing. So we have had to grow the two together. And that doesn't mean that we are reliant on him as the founder, as a creator forever, but it does mean that we know that in order for the movement of exactly what to say to grow, we also need to continue to grow Phil's brand, grow his influence for him to be that sort of fuel on the fire that grows exactly what to say. And that has worked really well and we expect that to evolve over time. And he loves getting involved. Uh, he has a particular passion for video and what we're doing on YouTube and he loves to do that. But his best place is to be on stages, in front of people and um, in conversation with people, opening doors, creating opportunities in the best way that he knows to use his skills. But the connection between him and the brand to me is the certified guides because they are the deliverers of the message that allow it to expand to more human beings face to face. And through really encapsulating the passion that Phil has for the brand, but making it fit with what individuals want to achieve. So for example, where you have taken the work and you have almost translated it into your world, accountants now understand the context behind the work because you, as somebody who is operating in that space, is able to take it and translate it and give it a new lens. And that's something that Phil can't do individually. Firstly, because he is one human, and secondly, because he's not in every single industry every day. As much as he is extremely knowledgeable about a lot of industries, he's not in them every day. He's not able to build those individual relationships. Whereas when you have 50 or two, you know, we're only planning to have a maximum of 100 certified guides, but still, still 100 people who are out there sharing a similar message and showing even more people how it can relate to them, that's where it has sort of real power. And then if they can relate that back to one person who is the creator, founder, who they can still see visibly standing on stages creating content, sharing what he's doing and how he's working, that helps everybody.

Speaker A: That's huge. Um, there's so many great points you talked about that. But I'm gonna tag along something you were saying towards the end, which, um, inspired a thought and which was the ability to give, uh, an industry expert, uh, this freedom to grab the work while honoring it and then customize the context that goes inside that. This is kind of one of the brilliant things about the brand is the most how many different modalities you could do with this. So there's this idea where you can grab in a universal book where the general population can relate to examples in personal life and leadership and in selling or commercial, you know, uh, trying to convince people to buy products or services. And now we can grab this and we can now say to an industry like in real estate or in accounting or in a different professional, um, discipline and say we're going to grab the same principles, but we're going to change the examples into the book so it feels more personal to you. And I find that to be like such a brilliant Swiss army knife concept, or you can grab this brand, stick with the principles, and then contextualize it to what's personal someone else. And, uh, I've got like a bunch of products here and like, how cool it is that you can now build something like role play cards, so now people can use it in the form of a game to improve their communication. And I know that, you know, Phil's brain also brings other things like, you know, his philosophies or teaching people that don't know how to sell or, you know, what's behind you as well. Right. Or, or like, if someone wants to plan goals. And, you know, I'm a huge fan of just, you know, all the ideas and concepts and I guess, you know, where I want to get to in this point is, we've seen that success working really, really well. But there's also, like, a lot of risks of when someone wants to launch a brand and they want to say, I want to go in all these directions. I guess, like, what advice would you have for a thought leader? Let's say, for myself, if I were to build my own personal brand and I want to productize my ideas, right, and there could be successful ways to execute that, and there could be pitfalls, I guess. From your experience, what are some things that have flopped? Maybe, uh, what you tried to do within EWTS or other ideas in and like, lessons from that, that other folks that are looking to say, how can I grab this really core idea, uh, and bring it to modalities, but not, you know, not fail miserably.

Speaker B: Let me have a little think on what has flopped. But I want to first come to a point about what makes it work. Um, and that is, and I'm sure you would agree, the reason that Phil's work works well, the reason that exactly what to say works so well, is that it's rooted in principles. So as much as you can pick up the book and you can say, hey, you know, it's a little book, it's full of 23 sets of words, and that's that, well, we know that it's not just about 23 sets of words, and, hey, go say them in some conversations today. It's rooted in principles, which are four cornerstones of conversational excellence. Um, we have the curiosity, empathy, courage, triangle that we also talk about. And these form the sort of the bedrock of the work. If you just build, oh, I'm going to have my own version of the 23 or 32 sets of words, and I'm going to put them in a book and I'm going to sell that, and that's going to work without any underlying principles, that work becomes very narrow. But when you root it in principles, it becomes almost infinitely broad because you can apply it to any situation. You can root it back to something bigger than just the words as the example. So I believe that's what makes it really powerful. That's what makes it applicable to so many different industries, to so many different, um, sort of modalities, to so many different contexts. The other part of. Yep. So the other part of that, if you're looking to do this yourself, if you had a body of work, uh, some ip, if you had a book and you wanted to achieve a similar amount of scale, of scaling the brand, it's remembering that you cannot be everywhere at once. You as a human being are not scalable aside from being tech enabled. So we know we can scale ourselves using tech, using AI, but really it's about this brand, is about human connection. We didn't want to lose the soul of that, which is why having a, an army of people is really important. And that's why I, I kind of will get on my soapbox about how empowering people to be messengers of your brand is one of the strategies you could possibly have. You can find people who understand and are passionate, are, uh, connected to your vision for your brand and you can give them everything they need to go out there and talk about what you do, to share your message and put it into their own context. That's extremely powerful. So I would consider, firstly is if you're going to take a piece of work and you want to scale it, you have to think about what makes it scalable. And if you can start with people, that's great. I'm not saying it's the easiest way, but I think in a sort of AI world, the more you can tap into human connection and the face to face and empower people through conversations, you have a huge advantage over those who are relying on automation and that sort of thing.

Speaker A: That's great. Can I ask something on that real quick? Ah, as you think about your flops, you can write them down because that could be a bonus or we could put that at the end, um, because you inspired another idea here. And I think about what you were saying earlier with, you know, everything's rooted in principles and like, in order for branding to be successful, there needs to be, and I think of one word, like great brands are consistent with something. What are the things that need to be consistent? And I'll, uh, maybe clue you in on one thing, right, Because I think one of the parameters that you give, you know, certified guides like ourselves is like, yes, we can represent the brand, but we have to follow brand guidelines, right? Like, it's not like I'm going to grab exactly what to say and change the color to my brand color. So I like, there are certain limitations where there are things we still need to be consistent with. So the branch shows up correctly, consistently, well represented. So what, uh, tips do you have for folks around consistency in successfully amplifying and growing a brand so that it doesn't, you know, the inconsistency might break trust or just not might lose credibility. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the challenges we have had, and this sort of relates to your point first of all is, what do you do when people start to either copy or use your work without permission? I think that's quite a big topic. And the first sort of thing that we have learned is you have to learn what the balance is between giving people freedom and protecting your brand. And I like to look at it as the phrase freedom within fences. So you create your fences, but you don't make people feel restricted. So in terms of when certified guides are, uh, out there sharing the work and they want to do it with integrity, they want to do it in the best way, they want to make sure that they are honoring the brand, honoring the work, then that's exactly how we would want it to be, is that they feel empowered, and they feel like they have freedom and creativity, but they also understand what not to do or what might not be appropriate. So that's one side of it. The other side of it is that there will be people who, as Phil would describe it, karaoke the work. And, um, sometimes, mostly it's with good intent. Mostly it's that they love the work and they just want to share it with more people. And they're really enthusiastic, but they don't necessarily have the authority and the permission to do that, or they're just unclear on what they're allowed to do. And I think when you talk about what hasn't worked, and it's not necessarily what hasn't worked, it's a lesson that we've learned, and that is that, uh, when you have IP out, uh, there, you're playing a game of what we refer to as whack a mole, where you will find it pop up, you will find copied versions, you will find audio versions, you will find people creating their own events called exactly what to say on Eventbrite or something coming up on YouTube. And we're having to constantly monitor that. And you can spend your whole life policing that, uh, or you can be grateful that the work is out there. And it's sometimes really hard to find that balance. Um, and I know somebody very recently has had his entire course essentially, um, I'd say ripped off by two people who have very large audiences and they're profiting off his work. And he had to make the decision, do I want to go all in and get lawyers and go down the whole legal process route, or do I let it go and, um, build something else, or build my own, um, on my own plot of land and just let them get on with it? And he's decided to do the latter. And he said, I'm Going to take my work, I'm going to build something new with it. That's a really hard thing, because when you've built something yourself from scratch, out of your own brain, with your own experience, you've delivered it multiple times, you will get very protective, and that's understandable because it's your baby. But the trouble with information is that it is a commodity. It is available everywhere, which means it's not always safe. And as much as you want to create some rules around it, it doesn't mean that people are going to follow it. So the way that we like to look at it, the attitude that we like to have, is just empower people to share the work and enjoy the fact that more and more people are learning about it and hope that while we're taking other actions, like we're building content, we're being visible, we're creating value, that they will come back to us, they will find us, and if they want to work with us, then that's when it will happen. So that's, I think, an important area.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's something interesting about branding that I scratch my head around, which on one end it sounds like, you know, for your brand to survive, we have to be open and nimble to, to evolve, uh, one, from the mistakes that we make, two, from when the work is so good, other people will try to rip it off in one way or the other because it will just exist. Unfortunately, some people might not have either, you know, the, the will to try to create something on their own. So the easiest thing to do is just use it themselves and monetize of it. And that's unfortunate. And you can choose from a mindset standpoint, as I'm going to just go after everyone, you can use all that energy towards that. Or you could see it as a gift, as an opportunity to say, how can I evolve, be bigger thinker. Maybe I'd be more proactive, you know, get my legal things in place, you know, build my parameters. My guardrails just protect, you know, uh, the, the originality of my work there. So there's that. Right. And having to evolve. And then I see this thing, which is kind of like strangely the opposite thing. Uh, and maybe it's a valid, or maybe it's not a valid example, but you saw the whole scandal about Crackle Barrel logo, right?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah, the Cracker Barrel logo was like, it's the original thing and Cracker Barrel maybe try to do this thing where, like, we're going to change it up, we're going to Try to evolve. And people were like, no, what are you doing? We love the old logo. From your point of view, I'm, um, putting you on the spot here. Why, why did people choose not to evolve with the brand when they wanted to be more modern? What was something there that they did really well that made people want to just say, don't change anything.

Speaker B: So it's not a brand that I had heard of before until this came up, but I think what they will have done a really good job of is building a brand that's rooted in traditional values, in the tradition and the backstory of the, of the business of the brand. And that is what people will be loyal to, just that. And when they see that logo, they feel a connection and probably they have a connection to a memory in their childhood of when they first saw it, or an experience of some time that they spent with their grandparents and that was part of it. And they feel emotionally connected. And that's an extremely powerful brand building sort of strategy. Not that they necessarily set out to do that, but that's what they created. And in rebranding or adjusting the logo, which wasn't hugely different, but it took out the detail and it made it just different to what they used to. They forgot why people loved the brand and were loyal to it and they just lost their way, they lost their connection. And I think that was a similar thing. There was a similar, um, sort of discussion around the rebrand of Jaguar. Did you see that?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And Jaguar's again, very traditional. It's a very traditional brand. We're used to seeing the logo as it is and they come up with this, like, ultra modern font that just. It's like, no, that's not what it is. It's supposed to be traditional, it's supposed to be very British. It's supposed to be rooted in its, you know, heritage. It's like by. We didn't want it to evolve, we didn't want it to become modern, we wanted to keep it as it was. Did they actually ask the people who were loyal to the brand what they thought before they just relaunched it, or did someone come along and just make, make a decision? And I think that's such a, ah, such a mistake if you lose that connection with A, the people that are loyal to your brand and B, how they really feel about it? It's, it's a massive, it's a massive difference. And I think that's something as, as we, as we grow. Exactly what to say brand, as anyone's growing, their brand is that if you lose that, that site, that connection with the people and how they connect to the brand, that's what matters. It kind of doesn't matter what you think. You might have your opinion, you might think, but I really want to evolve it. But why? Yep. Is that just, I think, selfish?

Speaker A: I think what people also forget is that, and this is like an interesting fun fact, but also a real fact. And this has been ingrained in my brain ever since, uh, that since we were kids, we can recognize by the age of 7 or 8 anywhere between 200 to 300 logos just by seeing it. And I can prove that because my five year old nephew last week came over and we were doing a bunch of stuff, but we put on YouTube, you know, recognize this logo, recognize this flag and all the car logos. Literally as you see it, Mercedes, Audi, BMW. And you're just like, wow. And I think about Cracker Barrel, to your point, um, although you didn't grow up with it. I did. And actually when I first moved to the States, kind of in the mid-90s, like one of the first restaurants I ever went to in the United States of America was Cracker Barrel. And it was just like, wow. Like to your point, the feeling that I had, you know, going into the restaurant, everything filled, feel, felt traditional. Right. Even though it was in South Florida, it felt like, like a Southern, you know, type of environment. The food, the, the people, the treatment, you just, it was a feeling and you, it's almost like when someone's robbing you of that feeling, it's like a, they're robbing you of that sentimental value. It's like, you know, when our parents, I don't know if you've, you've gone through this, but you know, we, when your parents move out of the house and they need to clear a couple of old memories of things, it's like they're attached to, to that, to that sentimental value. And so with branding there's, there's, there could be a double edged sword, like what happened with Jaguar, what happened with Cracker Barrel. So I think there's some definite lessons to be learned. But it's also a testament to saying what a great job, you know, the brand had, had done. Not just with the logo but with the feeling that it created through the way that they lived through, you know, the brand and they represented that brand. Uh, and so just, just an interesting lesson.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that the stories that people have, that everyone will have a story that relates to a time that they were there, a time that they enjoyed with their family. And like, we know that, like, powerful brands are built on stories. And if you forget what your stories are, you forget that connection, then what do you, what do you even have? Like, you can create new ones, sure, but the ones that people have in their minds and the connection that they have to the brand, that way you're helping people to create memories and experiences that they, they will remember and they will retell in the future. And that's why I think that that brand has such longevity. The fact that you were, you, uh, have a memory back in the 90s and the brand still exists today shows that, you know, they need to not if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think is the big, the big lesson here. And I would hope that, you know, as any brand evolves, there will be times where you think, is this getting boring? Are, uh, people sick of hearing this? Do we need to change this up and it comes back to, if you've got something worth sharing that's really valuable, People will not get sick of hearing you say the same phrase or hear you referring back to the same principles. They'll actually thank you for reminding them that sometimes they need to go back to basics, sometimes they need to remember these things. And when people think, oh, uh, yeah, but I say that phrase all the time or whenever I'm on stage, it's kind of the same speech, but, like, obviously I'll adapt it to the audience. But are people sick of hearing this? Because, well, actually, if you're standing on stage, you're the only one that's seen it or been there every single time. So of course that's going to come up in your head. But the principles and phrases and the things that people connect to, they will be timeless. And I think a lot of people worry about people getting bored of the same thing, but I don't believe that. But I understand why some people do and I understand why some people think I need to change it up. I need to evolve, I need to create some new material. And sure, there will be new material, but you've got to create it based on what the market's. You telling. Telling you, not on. Oh, I think probably it's a bit boring now, or maybe I'm a bit bored of it. Um, that's another story is, you know, you don't ever want to get bored of your own content. But sure, if it's still working, if it's still, you know, attracting audiences and people are still loving it, then don't be afraid to repeat that post on Instagram with that one phrase on it that uh, you're like, I say that all the time. Are people sick of hearing it? No, they love it, they want to hear it again. They associate it with you. It reminds them, oh, I remember when he said that on stage and it really connected with me. Or I remember when I went to that event and I had that experience. It reminds me of when I had that conversation with that person. It's that anchoring. So it's the feeling connection. Yeah. I believe that brands should evolve, but I think you have to do it really intentionally and make sure that the people that the. If you're building a movement, that the movement comes with you, that you're not trying to build alongside it, around it, ahead of it, but it goes along at the same time. That's why that by building something like the certified guide program, we're not just building one brand, we're helping people build multiple brands, uh, on multiple journeys. And that's what creates a movement. So if you've got a brand where you're creating experiences like a restaurant and dining experiences, how do you enable people to create their own journeys and their own stories that make them feel a part of yours? And if you go off and you're rebranding without having listened and connected with them and gathered the stories from them, then you're going to miss the mark.

Speaker A: It's a great point. Speaking of that, um, there is an exercise that I did in my first year, you know, becoming a certified guide, what I found to be so powerful and I want, I wonder if I could maybe put you on the spot a little bit. But I'm talking about the business of you and the nine box planning without going too into depth, but on a very high level, I found that to be extremely beneficial for me to really understand how to introspectively understand who I am and who I want to be. Uh, but could you share a kind of high level what the business of you concept is and why these principles are so important when we think about elevating our personal brand and how it helps us really prioritize what, where to focus.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: On building a personal brand.

Speaker B: So the business of you, you know, it's, it's my jam within the uh, exactly what to say they work. And um, that is visibility, credibility, authenticity and availability. The four pillars of the business of you. And without one of them, you might struggle to build a strong and consistent brand. Without two of them, you definitely will. You imagine it like a stool, four legged stool will Be solid three legged stool, still going to stand two and um, it's full falling over. So you can't have a really powerful personal brand and reputation, uh, in particular in the expert space, but also as somebody who is looking to represent their brand. So let's take the example of an accountant and they run their own firm, they have several people. But what they're deciding to do is they're deciding to spend, step out and start being more visible and start creating opportunities through building their own reputation. And that isn't just about visibility, that's just one, one quarter of it. But the purpose of the business of you is to create that holistic view of what a personal or professional brand is. And um, that can apply not just to, you don't just have to be the company owner, you could have a team of people and you're empowering them to go out and build your brand externally, to create opportunity to share their knowledge, to build some thought leader content, to go networking, to be posting on LinkedIn and all of those sorts of things. So first of all, yes, you need to be visible because without visibility who even knows who you are? And um, within that I like to advocate for people to build something with consistency in mind. Um, because not everybody has time to build a massive sort of social media following, be putting out content all the time. So building it with sustainability in mind, where you know that you can consistently deliver this type of content or be in this type of situation, um, that is the key with visibility. So second one, credibility is in many people's minds gathering testimonials. And I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about gathering testimonials because quite often in testimonials it's just everyone saying how brilliant you are. Ah. And after a while some people when they're reading it could think they've just asked someone to say how brilliant they are. How authentic is this? What does this mean for me? Because it seems to be all about them. So I like to sort of twist that round and say, what if we relabelled testimonials or rebranded them as uh, impact stories? So what stories do you want people to be telling about the impact that working with you or your company had on them? And that is way more powerful than a testimonial. And that's where credibility doesn't just come from. Having the correct letters after your name, the correct um, qualifications, having a uh, great website and all the things that make you look flashy and shiny and clever. But credibility is about trust and the best Way I know to build trust is by creating stories told by others to others. And that's when someone will say, actually, they do know what they're doing. And I can relate to that. And that connects us on to authenticity. And authenticity is about, well, are you, Are you being real? Are you telling the truth? Those two key things. And I like to sort of describe it as putting it through a filter. You could call it like a resonance filter. And that filter basically says, am I actually being me? Am I showing up in a way that feels authentic? Do I feel like I'm putting on an act? Or is this actually what I would say? And, um, am I speaking in a way that's going to connect to others? And obviously, telling stories within that is the best way to connect to others. So you're not just gathering stories, but you're also telling stories in a way that connects your message to human to human. So your human experience to someone else's human experience, or you retell a human experience that's happened as a result of what you do, then the final one is availability. So this is probably the one that people miss the most, is that they actually forget to tell people how they work with you or connect with you because they feel like they should be delivering value all the time. So if we use the example of posting content, yes, you're showing up, you're being visible, you're gathering impact stories, you're being authentic, you're telling stories. But you forget to tell people how they can connect with you, reminding them that they could sign up for your newsletter, reminding, uh, people of, you know, you actually could give me money for this, or you could come work with us, or maybe you could become a client and this is how. And then you make it easy for them to just take that first step. And it's okay to do that. Obviously, you don't want to do that all the time. So if you're posting on LinkedIn, you don't want to be saying at the end of every post, come work with me, come work with me, come work with me. You have to build trust. Um, but don't forget to do it, and don't forget to make it really easy. So the business of you is all four of those things working in harmony, and you won't be perfect in each of them all the time. Uh, it's a balancing act. It's like saying there is no such thing as work, life, balance. There might be moments where there's a balance, but it's always forever moving and you're Always looking at, in what area am I falling down right now that I could do better and keep iterating as you go.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that was really well defined. And I think about it as, these are core components to help us stay just focused on the core activities that need to be done as you're looking to build that personal brand. And I definitely, you know, put it, put it to work and I've seen tremendous results from it. In building the credibility, you know, doing the visibility part, which is, you know, doing a podcast with you, that, that's a visibility activity. And, and these are things to think about, like having a website, you know, writing an article, whatever way that you could share your ideas, your thought leadership, your content, um, ways for people to see who you are, what you're about, what are you an expert at and then how can they work with you if they happen to be someone that, that feels connected, uh, to the value that you can bring and they could see a benefit in potentially working with you. But again, I mean, getting case studies, testimonials, impact stories, as you mentioned, which is trust that's being transferred from a third party, like that's one of the highest credibility building activities. And so I think the after I did that activity, it just shifted my entire perspective on like, okay, uh, it gave me much more clear direction. How do I build myself, how do I think about me? Um, so I thought those pillars were absolutely brilliant. And you explained it beautifully.

Speaker B: Thank you. So powerful. And, and I also like to just, just mention it's not just necessarily about a personal brand, even as a leader. And how you work with your team is like how you being visible to your team. How are you demonstrating credibility to the people that you're leading? How are you being authentic in your interactions with them? And you know, do you have an open door policy? Are you inviting them to, are you being approachable? Are you allowing people to connect with you and share things with you that uh, they may have felt less confident to. So I think that there are so many ways that the business of you or that model could be applied not just to someone growing a personal brand as an expert or a business owner, but also someone who's looking to build that strong reputation within their role as a leader. I think that's, that's a key way of using it as well that I really love.

Speaker A: That's huge. You definitely scratched my brain on that. I didn't even think of it from that, that view. Like a leader building their brand as a leader can use these same Principles, which goes back to the earlier point. If you operate on principles, you know, the consistency behind the success that will, will be even better than you just throw a bunch of random tactics without real clear direction or, or foundational principles. And with Reframe the brand that Hector and I lead, we have principles as well. Like, we operate under a manifesto. There's like these 12, 13 things that we, we operate under these rules no matter what we do. If it's not that, just like a company when they have core values, like, if we're not grounded on our core values, like who we are, what are we about? You know, just yesterday I was doing a workshop with an accounting firm, and we spent a lot of work on helping the team decide, you know, what words do customers use when they describe working with us? Like, how do we want them to feel when they're done working with us? What behaviors or actions do we want to represent? You know, and we come up with words like transparency, reliability. Uh, and so, like, if we operate under those core, uh, values, those, that, those foundational principles, then everything else can be universally applied. And I think that's beautiful. And that's a huge part of the branding component.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. And it makes everything so much easier. It makes decision making so much easier when you've got something to just anchor, um, it to. And like, as I described earlier, a filter through which to put it, it's like, okay, we're making a decision. We're deciding whether to do this tactical thing over here or apply this messaging or create this product. Okay, does this actually fit with these foundational principles or these core values? When it comes to a brand, obviously you don't just want to be noisy for the sake of noisy or, you know, create an audience for the sake of creating an audience. It's what actually is this doing for the brand? How is this deepening the connection between what we're doing and the people who are experiencing it? And you can't go far wrong if you have that approach. And I like, and I, I did a post about this the other day. I think that you saw it and it was about the strength of a brand is built on the experiences that you create for people. And if you can route it back even just to that one point or just have a little think about a decision you're making, a campaign you're about to run. Uh, an article you're about to write is, are you creating a positive experience for the people that you wish to impact? And how can you make that even better? How can you Keep adding excellence to it. I think that's something that is. If there was one filter, that would be it.

Speaker A: That's awesome. Claire, I don't want to hold you up too much, but I have one last question. If I was a thought leader or an organization thinking about bringing you in to speak to my team or my organization, um, what would be something that the group would walk away with? Like it's just an example of ah, a core objective or an outcome or takeaway.

Speaker B: I would say if I were to pick one objective it would be obviously clarity. And uh, that clarity comes from really understanding the why of building a uh, personal professional brand and that your strategy for it always comes back to being yourself, telling the truth, being real and also acting in the interests of the bigger brand that you might represent. And that's a uh, worry for individuals and it can be a worry for organisations that if I empower people to go out and build personal brands, will they just leave? Will they just go and build their own company? Um, and I would like to challenge that and say what if they don't and what if they help you build yours? And I think that's something to really think about. So um, a sort of journey, a framework for how to do that and feel confident that it's actually going to meet business objectives and meet your own career objectives at the same time.

Speaker A: I love that I think like that coexistence of uh, like I'm Carlos Garcia and I'm also an exactly what to say certified guy and both can coexist.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Okay with, with being my authentic self. I'm a musician, guitarist, songwriter. Just like you're Claire, director of Brandon. Exactly the same. But you're so clear. The super awesome powerlifter. And you courageously and bravely just post. You're you know, your jam, this is who you are. Right. And being sort of unapologetic about it and that's okay. And both can coexist.

Speaker B: It's, it's liberating, it's freedom. And uh, there's no greater freedom than the freedom to just be yourself at all times.

Speaker A: Right on. Claire, this has been really awesome conversation. I really appreciate you joining. If um, anyone wanted to connect with you online, what's the best way for someone to connect with you?

Speaker B: Best way to connect with me is on LinkedIn. You just look for LinkedIn, put it in the notes and I'm just Claire Daddle on there. Look for the orange heart.

Speaker A: Perfect. Well, thank you for joining today. I appreciate it. Uh, look forward to hanging out with you soon. And, uh, thanks, everyone, for tuning in. And for more information, check out the show notes till next time.