The Power of Words in Sales: Influence & Persuade w/ Nicole Cramer

Speaker A: Welcome to the Psilosophy podcast. Today my guest is Nicole Kramer. Coming from being a high school math teacher to boldly stepping into the world of sales, being a top producer, then becoming an entrepreneur and someone I call, uh, a very close friend, we've actually done a lot of work together. So, Nicole, I'm super excited to have you today because as part of this conversation is called Celosophy, because it's like the philosophy and sales put together, like the why behind what we do and how we do it. Um, and if there's anyone as a guest that could really add perspective and value to this conversation, you're, you're one of the top people that come up to mind. For me, that's like a really, really has studied the why and, and, and the how of all things, the art of the conversation. And um, so I'm excited to have you. Thanks for being here.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me. You might as well just call it as it is. I'm a sales nerd, Carlos.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, and I, I shamelessly also feel like I, I, I share that title with you. Right. Like we, we love really going deep into the mechanics and to the, the precision of what it looks like, you know, how conversations can be so much better and how relationships can be so much better when you come in with the right mindset, with the right ethical considerations, with, with the intention to serve, which is, I know one of the mantras that you say a lot and, and I borrow that from you a lot. And it's, uh, something that has always resonated with me. But yeah, I think the objective of today's call is conversation is really, I'd love the opportunity to kind of talk, talk about your trajectory and how you ended up figuring out that this is your calling, this is what you're really naturally, uh, and charismatically really good at, and how you're able to share that gift with the world too, to also help them navigate conversations naturally and be able to sell, but in the spirit of being in service. So, so my first, my first thing is, I know you shared it with me a lot, but for the benefit of the audience, and I'd love to get more, more of a perspective. And I know you're a wonderful storyteller, but math teacher number one seller. Now you're your own sort of, you know, keynote speaker, coach, you know, the trajectory of, like, how all of that came to be. So could you kind of share a little bit about that?

Speaker B: Ah, uh, definitely not a straight line. Let's start with that. It Was not something that I think I could have predicted. However, I kept following the breadcrumb. And I think for anybody, you know, in their life that's wondering what's next, there's always signs. And if I were to describe my story now, looking back, it's easy for me to see those signs. But when I was moving through it, it wasn't always as simple. I was a teacher for 15 years. I taught math. And I always say I teach the subjects nobody likes. I teach math, I teach sales, the subjects that aren't as approachable. And what I really loved about teaching math is taking a hard, difficult, challenging subject and breaking it down and making it easy for people. And I think that that's why I have such a passion for teaching sales. It's the. It's something that we can't avoid as business owners. And however, if we can approach it from a way that feels better about it and that we can enjoy it, we're going to likely do a lot more of it and do it a lot more successfully. And that's who I was as a math teacher. And so after 15 years of doing that, it was great, and it was wonderful while it lasted, but there was a part of me that really wanted to challenge myself and do something different. I also am a lifelong athlete, so I have this competitive drive that is like, where's the carrot? Show me where the carrot is that I can chase. And I had gotten to a point after 15 years of being a teacher that there weren't really carrots that I was excited about chasing. And so I decided to leave teaching, go into sales. However, you know, I was a little nervous. I didn't have experience. And I went on my very first interview with someone who a friend of mine had set me up on the interview. He said, I think you'd be great at sales. Why don't I put you in front of my boss? I said, great. So I walk in, I've got a resume that just says teacher. And I'm so afraid the guy's going to call me out on not having experience. And that's exactly what he did. I get to the end of the interview, and he says, listen, I am pleasantly surprised. I think you did a really great job of this. So I was so worried that the, you know, I didn't have experience going into the interview, and I was afraid that the guy interviewing me was going to say, you don't have experience. And that's exactly what he did. We get to the end, and he said, you know, listen, I'M pleasantly surprised. I really do think you did a really great job in this interview, but I'm going to have a hard time hiring you over the 89 internal people who want this position. M He said, your resume just says teacher. You've never sold anything. And I looked at him and of course in that moment, I'm like, man, he just hit me where it hurts. That's the one thing I was afraid he was going to say. And I looked at him and I said, well, I've been selling math to high school teenagers for 15 years and nobody wanted to buy that. And in that moment, I did not have it planned. I know you and I, Carlos, talk about a lot. We should not wait until the moment to decide what to say. I didn't have that planned. But in that moment, it came through me and I was like, wow, that was actually kind of true. And that's exactly what he looked at me and said. He goes, that's good. That's really good. And it got me onto the next round. He said, would you like to go on a ride along with one of my sales, uh, team members? I said, sure. He said, can you do a 30, 60, 90 day business plan? I said, absolutely. And I walked out of there and I called my friend who set me up in the interview. I said, what the hell's a 30, 60, 90 day business plan? Because I'm on to the next round. And in that moment, it was exciting to be moved on to the next round. However, what I now know and the reason I tell this story again and again is that's exactly the truth. I was selling math to high school teenagers because what a sale is, is not a transaction. And that was my first understanding that like, sales is absolutely about serving. It's about helping people. And the transaction just happens to be the byproduct once you've both agreed and. And there doesn't always need to be a transaction. Right. It's really about helping people make decisions that help them get the outcomes that they want.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I just love like the actual moment where he tells you, like, why should I hire you? You're. You have no sales experience. That was an objection. That you managed and you trusted your instincts and you kind of just lean. Although, you know, we talk about. And I know it's. It's something that you'll probably share a lot is like, it's so important to prepare for the. Your objections. But you have this natural ability to trust your instincts in those moments. You kind of, it kind of gives you that adrenaline rush. But it was so, so brilliant for you to be able to say something so bo. Boring. I, I made it fun. So I think if I could do that, you know, I could probably do a fairly good job. Just give me, give me the knowledge, give me the tools, give me the things to, to present and then I'll, I'll work on building the relationships. You know, your charisma made up for it. I think also coming in with a curious mindset and then just showing that you were ambitious, you're open to learning. So I think there are some traits also for people who want to become great at selling. Like the ones who are most successful are the ones who have that open mind and that learner's mindset. Being able to bring that transparency and vulnerability to the space is what made, made you so magnetic and attractive as, uh, someone who's coachable. Because I, I know a lot of leaders when they want to hire someone, like they, they rather have someone who has all the will in the world and no skill rather than someone who has all the skill in the world and zero flexibility for taking feedback and criticism. So I think that's fantastic.

Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I was definitely an eager participant and an eager learner and it allowed me to see the breadcrumbs and take the next steps.

Speaker A: Okay, so you get hired and now I think, you know, many folks who step, uh, into a new space where like, you start from zero, probably go through like a lot of mental hurdles knowing that your, your identity has changed. Right. You are now, you were a math teacher and now you're, you have to sell a product or service. And I see this parallel for people who sell services, right. Their own professional services like in MySpace, accounting professionals, or maybe even someone who has an, becomes an account manager and they start from zero and they have to develop a book of business, get new clients or a, uh, woman entrepreneur, which is, I know it's kind of your focus who now has to sell their professional services or their storefront business to try to get more clients. Like, a lot of these mental hurdles are all kind of the same, right? Ah, what were your course and like, what did you learn kind of through that process to help you overcome some of those hurdles?

Speaker B: Uh, there were a lot of tears, if I'm being honest. I felt very uncomfortable. Although I had chosen to leave my teaching career and go into a sales job, I had a lot of hang ups around feeling salesy, around feeling pushy. And even from the beginning when I started thinking about wanting a sales job I was very adamant about the fact that any sales job I did take would need to be something I used, consumed, believed in. I was not going to sell something that didn't fall into those categories. That felt very out of integrity for me. And what was interesting is two months before I got offered the job that I got offered, I started drinking coffee for the first time in my life. And when I got invited to interview for that job, I looked at the guy who was a very good friend of mine. I said, what do you guys sell? He goes, coffee. I said, of course you do. And had that not happened two months before that, I don't know what my next answer would have been, knowing that I was not a coffee person before that. So like I said before, I trusted a lot of the breadcrumbs. It wasn't necessarily a straight line, but that felt so just obvious to me that that was my next step. So like I said, I had the salesy, pushy, aggressive fears because I didn't want to come across as being that person. I took a lot of who I was as a teacher and I brought it into who I was as a salesperson. Because to be honest, my first few months in the job, I didn't actually have anybody to train me because that same person that hired me ended up leaving and moving across the country. And so I was kind of on my own. So what I did is I went to all of the people who were at the top of the leaderboards and I said, you know what? Success leaves clues. If these are people that are performing at the top, I'm going to follow whatever they're doing. I'm going to ride along with them, I'm going to offer to help them, I'm going to offer to do whatever I can to be in proximity to them and learn how do they get past the salesy thing? Because they're wonderful people. I don't think that they're pushy, aggressive people. So how are they making all these sales without that hang up that I currently have? And so I really was a sponge. I was very willing to learn from others. I know that that's something that if I go back to every other area of my life, that's one of the best ways that I've created success is learning from others. So that was very intentional and enjoyable. To be honest. I think when we're spending time serving others, which is what I was doing, I was helping them, I was doing whatever I could to be a part of their world. It made it more enjoyable to learn What I was learning, and that was really my only option because, like I said, my manager had moved across the country and, uh, you know, I had some other interesting. We won't take too much of a det here, but some other interesting things. When I was brand new to sales, I ended up in the hospital for seven days. I didn't have insurance, I didn't have time off of work there. I found myself without insurance and without time off for seven days in the hospital. So there were some other significant challenges for me, too. But I think it all. It all happened in the. In the most interesting way because it allowed me to really develop my own sales process, my own authentic way of doing things. And I think that's one of the most important things that any of us can do, is build skill, because skill is one of the most important things that we can ever have, because that's internal, that's a part of us. Uh, and then really develop the process that's most aligned with who we are. Because there's a bajillion strategies out there. And I think a lot of people spend so much time looking for the right way and the right strategy, and there's a right way and a right strategy for you, and I think that's the most valuable thing we can do. And I heard this analogy the other day about skill versus strategy, and the woman said, listen, if I give you a choice between these two, what would you choose? You can either have Tom Brady, who, for those that don't know, he's the goat of quarterbacks in the NFL. You could have Tom Brady with an average playbook, or you could have a high school quarterback with the best playbook in the world. Who are you going to choose? Well, you're going to choose the person with the skill because they're going to make the best of it. So I think that's really what I did. I slowed things, you know, getting sick and not being able to work as much as I wanted. I slowed things down. I developed things, skills I learned from the people that were doing it at the top level, the. The best of the best. And through all of that, I pieced together what my authentic process was. And I think that made all the difference for me.

Speaker A: I love that I was actually coaching someone today and I've had the privilege, which is the craziest thing. Nicole, this is you and me talking now. She's going to do her first keynote, and I'm actually helping her build it. And she gave me, like, her first PowerPoint, and it was just so Much content. And we know that content without context is noise quoting our. Our common mentor, uh, Phil Jones. And so I gave her a lot of feedback. I was saying, do less, do less. Which kind of goes back to your note about slowing it down. So she comes back with version two, and, um, she has some sort of, like, realization. And this reminds me of what you're talking about, making things authentic to you. And I was honestly, like, almost, like, ready to cry, uh, just of, like, how proud I was, because I'm like, holy crap, this person's gonna be so phenomenal. I'm, like, so proud of her. And she says, you know, there's, like, a favorite movie that. That I. I teach my daughters, and we talk about the lessons, and she's like, I identify with the character. It's Kung Fu Panda. And, um, I think there's like, a scene where she says, like, the panda goes to the mentor and says, what's the secret ingredient to being, uh, a ninja or whatever? And he goes, the secret ingredient is you. And so she goes, that's gonna be my keynote. It's like, how to, like, I'm my secret ingredient and just making things authentically yours and personally, you know, to you. And, uh, I. I love that because I. I was. I. I see part of myself in your journey, too. Like, when you were talking about, like, when I was starting, I got a big role with a big responsibility. I was the youngest person to get that opportunity. I had huge goals, huge responsibilities, like multimillion dollar lending goals, multimillion dollar deposit account acquisition goals. I'm sure you had yours. That felt scary and exciting, but more scary than exciting, right? Like, the excitement washes away once you get to the end of the quarter or the month where you have to look at the results and your manager is going to judge you of your performance. And all of these feelings and fears come out of, like, uh, am I making it m. You know, am I the right person? But the thing that you did, which is your willingness to step back and take ownership of your development is huge, right? Like, you reached out to the top people, you shadowed them, you asked them questions, you stayed curious. And I think the lesson here is for anybody in any role in what it is they want to do, whatever you want to get to is like, yes, make things authentically yours, but don't be afraid to ask for help, and don't be afraid to look for other people who. Who have had successes and what you can learn from it. And then take the things that you like that make. Make it Works for you. Because I know I've seen some bad habits too. For people to do things a certain way that are, don't, don't align with my ethics. I'm just like, I'm going to discard that. But I am going to take this idea, this practice because it works with my style. So I thought that's very cool. Anything you would add to that.

Speaker B: I think even like looking back, as I'm thinking about it now, I chose to learn from people who also weren't like me. And I found a lot of value in that. And what I mean by that is one of the most successful people at the time in my company was very introverted. I'm not an introvert. However, learning from him allowed my mind to open up a lot more about what sales is and to see that you don't. It's not about being bubbly and loud and talking. And I learned a lot from him in seeing that. How do we make it about what the other person really wants? How do we listen better? So I, I think to making it authentic to you, be willing to stretch a little bit and grow in who else you can be. Don't just stay in your comfort zone of what's you, but what else is important for you to become that's already inside of you. That maybe you see that possibility because of exposure in it in others. And that I think was a game changer. And I'll just say one last thing. My district manager was the first one that really drew my understanding to the fact that it was. This is going to sound weird. It's not about me, it's not about us. But to your point with the Kung Fu Panda story, the authenticity, the differentiator is us. And what he said to me on that very first day, like I was leaving a 15 year teaching career, I'm day one in the sales office and of course, um, I'm a little nervous. And he calls me into his office, he said, listen, I know you're a little nervous about being here. You don't have experience and you know you're coming from a very different position. But I want to tell you something that's really important. That if you always remember this, you will always be successful in sales. People are not going to buy from you because you have the cheapest prices, the best equipment or the best service. You may have, uh, all of those things, you may not. But at the end of the day, the differentiator, the reason that they are going to buy from you is because they like you. And if you remember that, you'll always be successful. And I was like, okay, I can get people to like me. And I was like the perfect version of a Pollyanna. Right. I just, I don't know, I was like starting from ground zero. I was like, okay, smiled and walked out of his office. But that set the tone for me to understand how do I bring me into the process.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's so awesome because it actually, it's going to lead me to, ah, this again. Something just organically happened during this coaching session. It was, I thought it was like so awesome because I'm, I'm helping this one person again that I'm mentoring. Talk about like the major things that happen for like that big shift, right? For like a big shift in mindset. For a big shift in like this is like leaving something that old Nicole, new Nicole. And it sounds like often something, someone has to say something to you to help you reframe, like the way you look at something. So like, that was your reframe. Right. But then I also thought about there are two other important things that need to happen for like a shift to happen. One is there's something you have to say to yourself that's new or different or repetitively. So I want you to think about what's the thing you started saying to yourself more after your leader told you that. And then the third thing is you have to make a decision like where you draw a line and say, I will no longer do this or I will now from now on I start doing that. Can you think about maybe like, what's the self talk thing that you started saying to yourself that helped propel you? And then the other is like, what's the big decision you made that also kind of elevated you?

Speaker B: So the big decision. And it's interesting because I think we're always either moving away from something towards something, or we're really, uh, lit up by something. Right. The, the decision that I made, the thing that I was no longer available for was being a teacher. And we won't go down into all the details, but not only was I making a decision to leave teaching, it was because it was just definitely not the right fit for me anymore. And the motivation to not go back to that was very real for me. In addition, I had a lot of friends that were in sales and before I left teaching, you know, we'd get together on Friday, happy hours, and they'd be like, I'm number one this quarter. I just signed the biggest contract of my career. And you know, like Sitting there just, you know, cheersing and having drinks at happy hour. They were all having these, like, exciting things happening. And I was like, I gave a math quiz today.

Speaker A: Woo. Yeah.

Speaker B: And a good friend of mine at the time was the number one salesperson in the nation in his company. And I just thought that sounded so cool. I'm like, number one in the nation. Like, that's a thing you can say. I want that. So that was my emotional connector to something that really lit me up. A carrot for me to chase. So I had two things working for me. I was not going to go back to where I had come from. And what did I have to lose to go after the number one person in the country title? And it sounded really dumb, Carlos, to a lot of people, because who am I to think that that's something that I could do, right? And as a matter of fact, I got laughed out of the sales office on day one. So right after my district manager said, hey, people are going to buy from you because they like you. I was like, okay. And I walk into my very first sales meeting room full of sales veterans, right? They've been doing it for years. And they were like, why did you leave teaching to come here? And I was like, because I want to be number one in the nation.

Speaker A: Hell, yeah.

Speaker B: I can just see it. I can just see myself with this big grin on my face, so excited. And they all just snickered and laughed, and they were like, that's cute, Pollyanna. That's cute, right? They were like, do you know how hard that is? And I was like, I don't know. Have you ever done it? And they were like, no. We've been in sales our whole lives. And I was like, well, where there's a will, there's a way. And what I think it was was me giving myself permission just to dream big. It was silly, ridiculously audacious, but I was just oblivious enough to not know why it should happen. And I also had evidence in front of me. A friend of mine was number one. So I'm like, well, if he can do it, I can do it. Yeah. And so Certainly I had KPIs and targets and different things that my company was asking me to reach, But I had my own internal drivers. And I think those were the two most important pieces to my success. And I would never argue that, like, certainly it was helpful to have my company say, hey, do this activity. And this could, you know, potentially turn into this. But the most impactful things for me was what, like you said, what Decision did I make? I was not going back to where I was. Decision means to cut off. That was it. And I knew for sure I wanted to be the number one salesperson.

Speaker A: That's very cool. That's awesome. I love it. So I want to, I want to move into another question, which, which, you know, like, every time you talk, I kind of just kind of stay stuck and just like listen in and I lean in. And a lot of people tend to do that when they listen to you and you've shared it with me kind of offline. You're like, you know, a lot of people tend to say that, like, I always have a story for something and I have found it to be like more and more that I chat with you. Like, you find this natural way to like share a story, which is extremely entertaining. There's always something funny or, uh, like an amaz lesson behind it. But it's just something that makes me just kind of want to sit back and listen in. And I know that everyone around you tells you the same, and I know that you've leveraged that naturally and selling. But for folks who maybe struggle to like, connect with people, for you it's very natural. But for others, maybe not so much. But I'd love for you to maybe just talk about how have you leveraged storytelling or why is storytelling so important in the way that you convey messages to your clients? And is there an example of like your, your favorite moment where you like, you were in a conversation and then like you went into story mode in your natural way and then it like turned into like a, uh, crazy, like awesome outcome? So I know that's like a jam packed question, but the first thing is like the why of stories that's uh, selling sales. And then do you have an example, like a cool story about you telling a story and how that helped you sell something?

Speaker B: I think you're onto something there. Story selling, yes. And that's what it is. Right? Because as our mentor says, the story sells, the facts only tell. And I think the story allows somebody to be entertained. Let's just put that out there. First and foremost, I think that what we're always doing in a bigger way is edutaining. And that's my version of the facts only tell, the story sells. Edutaining is what I think it's all about. You're not just educating, you're not just entertaining. And that's who I was as a math teacher. If we were to go back full circle, I made that fun. I was like, if we have to be here and we have to do this subject called math. Let's at least have a good time, right? It's not always going to be like shits and gigs and perfect, but let's do our best to make it fun. And I think that's what stories bring in. Look at back when we were little kids, what did we do all the time? We used our imaginations. We either made up our own stories or stories were told to us. Our entire conditioning growing up was all around whether it was real, imagined, or, you know, something that, that we read about in a book. It was always stories. And so it's interesting because I didn't realize that my stories were such a. I just have always loved telling them. I think that they're a fun way to entertain and make m. I don't know, make fun of some of the silly things that have happened to me. And it's truly a way to connect because I think what you're also doing when you're telling stories, you're getting vulnerable. And vulnerability is something that really allows you to connect with people. And I think one of the most important things we can in building rapport with people is we go first, we show what we want to, um, to experience from the other person. We make it safe for them to do that. I think when we create a safe space where someone else can feel safe in it, where they feel seen and heard, it's so much easier for them to share. It's so much easier for them to open up, their walls come down. So it's a way for us to have a different level of connection through telling story. And somebody sees the real person of us. That humanizes us. And I think that that's a big piece of people feeling that trust. And people do business with people and they do business with people that they know, like, and trust. And that's what I think that that's a big piece of creating.

Speaker A: Now this is going to be the second part to the question, which is a challenge is can you think of a story where you were in a sales conversation where you told a specific story? Maybe you did it intentionally, maybe you did it just because of the, you know, off of. Off the cuff. And that really helped you, like, realize, like, oh, wow. Like. Or like maybe how the client responded to it, or how it maybe shifted a client's perspective, or maybe even the way they. They saw you. Because maybe they were. They were cold or maybe they were hesitant or resistant. Can you think of one?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I could probably think of a Lot. The first one that came to mind is I, many years ago, when I was still at my company, had a lead come in and I booked the appointment. It was for the following week. In the meantime, my dog happened to get really sick. And on a Sunday night, my appointment was on a Monday morning. On a Sunday night, we had to go put my dog down. Uh, and so at about 2 in the morning, I emailed my contact. I didn't know what the, what the lead opportunity was or how big it could be. I just knew that I was still awake at three in the morning crying over my dog. So I probably wasn't going to be the best person to go into the appointment. So I said, I'm so sorry to do this so last minute. Is there any way we could move this appointment to later in the day, uh, in full transparency? We just put my dog down and I'm just not really right. And so I just was honest from the front, even though it's a business, you know, meeting. And she wrote back right away and said, I am so sorry to hear that. We recently had to put my dog down. I totally understand. Thursday works just fine for me. No worries at all. Now, that might not be the perfect version of what you asked me, where I was telling a story, but what it did is me being vulnerable, sharing what I was going through. Um, and I know some people might say, well, all you had to do was write, I can't make it tomorrow. Right. But I was like, no, I'm going to be a human here.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I'm going to say what actually happened. And when I went in to meet with her on Thursday, it was a whole different level of connection because we all of a sudden had this relatable thing that obviously is very emotional and a very challenging experience. But that ended up being one of the biggest accounts that I have ever signed in my life. It was worth many, many, many millions of dollars. And my connection with that woman, I know for a fact, started because of that willingness to get vulnerable. And because I opened up, she happened to have that same experience. I don't think that that was a coincidence.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think that the reframe there is that, uh, like vulnerability is a superpower. Like, don't see it. I think a lot of people who might maybe, I don't know if it's an insecurity or might think if I open up, it's not professional. If I open up, they might see me as weak. If I open up, you know, I just don't want to be judged. Could be a few things. And it's more like, why don't you just open up? Because you're just willing to be comfortable and you have nothing to hide. Right? Like, when you say, I have nothing to hide, this is who I am, take it or leave it, it actually is a little bit of holding up a mirror and saying, you know, this is the way that, uh, you could probably see a little bit of yourself in. In me. Right? Like, we're here, here I am the human that I am, just like you. We, we all wake up, we all go to sleep, we all eat, we all go to the bathroom, we all get sick. Right? We all have parents, we all go through the. This thing called life together. And I think that's just a. A connection builder is being willing to also say, hey, I'm willing to open up the human side of me. And we're two humans trying to figure it out in this world. So that's awesome.

Speaker B: Yep, exactly. And like, you know, we've said, and I know you and I believe this so strongly, business is done person to person. It's not done company to company. You might think that, you might think companies do business together, and I guess we could argue that they do, but it's always person to person. And so when someone feels that genuine connection and that humanness, it makes a big difference.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's funny, when I first started my business, I was like, my impression of, like, what starting a business would be is having a company logo and put everything behind that logo and, like, the company would be stronger and us and we. And making myself look bigger than what I really am, which is just me. Because if it's just me, it's just me. And then they're going to think, oh, it's just him. And what I later realized is that actually, like you said, people do business with people. People want to see people interact with people. They want someone's unique point of view, they want their personality. And why personal branding has become such a more powerful than anything else, why people follow, you know, 700 million people or whatever follow Messi, and only 1.5 million follow the soccer team that Messi plays in or something like that. Right.

Speaker B: And it's such a good example.

Speaker A: It's huge. It's huge. And I think leaning into that unique point of view, personality, the more you, as Chris Doe likes to say, the more you you are, the more you are. Um, and so I think that's huge. I want to shift into something like a fun little Random palate cleanser. It's going to be a quick little game. I know that you and I know each other because of we're nerds for words.

Speaker B: I like that.

Speaker A: Right. And, um, you know, we, we have a common person, uh, that we follow, that we find to be, uh, someone who's brilliant in the world of persuasion, communication. And that's Phil Jones through the exactly what to say methodology. And I was wondering if we can just play a game a little bit about words.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Words that build trust and words that erode trust. So I figured, why don't we do a simple swap? We take one turn each. I'll kick it off. So what would be a word not to say in a sales conversation and replace it with another word? So one of the words that, uh, have always triggered me whenever I spoke to someone in sales, like, as a buyer, when someone actually says the word to me honestly, like, honestly, it kind of gives me this, like, cringe of, like, subconscious is like, well, why do you have to say honestly? It also makes me kind of, like, suspect. Maybe they're not really being honest. Or were they not being honest before? So instead of saying honestly, one of the things I've learned to shift because it's something that I used to unconsciously say is in my experience, or here's what I know.

Speaker B: I like that because a lot of people say too, like, if I'm being honest, I. I hope. I'm not sure why we're having this conversation if you're not. But I think that your swap is perfect. In my experience. Yeah, nobody, nobody can argue with your words and your experience. Right.

Speaker A: No one can take that away from you.

Speaker B: The one that triggers me. And if I go back to what you had asked me about earlier, what some of my hangups were, my mindsets were, and I said I cried tears. I did. I cried tears in my manager's car. I cried tears at lunch on ride alongs with her because I was so worried about presenting pricing to people. I had a lot of wonkiness, uh, around my relationship with money. And therefore, that's what I transferred on to other people projected in my own fears. And the word cost is what really bothered me because cost is never. It never has a good meaning. And so. And I didn't believe that what I was doing was actually costing people. I. I felt like it was helping them. I felt like their lives were better when they did business with me because, number one, I could take things off their plate that were currently consuming them or overwhelming them. And number two, I believed that in the bigger picture I saved people money and although they had to pay to do business with me, I believed that in the bigger picture it was going to all come back to them in some way. And so I started looking at the word cost and replacing it with investment. The investment that you're going to make, what this investment will do for you, what the return is that you can expect on this investment that you're making. You know, I think the other thing for me is around cost and investment. It's not all money related. That was a big aha for me too is like where can I use the word cost effectively? Because what is this costing you if you stay where you are? Time, money, energy, frustration, stress. And so I helped myself to redefine cost and I don't use it around money. I like to use investment when I'm positioning it in a benefit to someone else.

Speaker A: That's great because you could still use cost if you're in the pain discovery part. Right? Like what is this costing you? Like if you do nothing. So you could still use the word but you want to strategically use it in a way that it's, that it's highlighting a pain that they have and as a self discovery of like oh, I do need you or your solution might be valuable. So I love that. So costs should only be referenced when you're addressing a problem, not when you're addressing the solution. Very cool. Um, I, I've seen this happen a lot is like a lot of people do and I was doing it a lot and sometimes I still, I still fall for it. It sucks, it's hard. I try to like change it, but it's just following up, just following up. And it just feels so like I just want to satisfy me but I didn't know what could be a good one there. And um, normally what I've done is I just, just try to flip it with a question. So like I have someone that, you know, we have the, the magic words of. I'm guessing you haven't gotten around to reviewing this email yet or I'm guessing you haven't gotten around to reviewing the proposal yet. I'm guessing you haven't gotten around to scheduling the follow up conversation. You know, so we can do that a lot but often, um, I don't want to like you can't use it more than once really. Right. So like I always look for creative ways to, to change that. So I just kind of just say, are you still interested? Hey, last time we spoke you mentioned that this was important to you. Are you still interested? I also try to do one where it's like, hey, this is the third time I communicate, uh, with you regarding the conversation we had back two months ago. Since I haven't heard from you, I'm guessing this might not be a priority for you. If that's the case, can I have your permission to, to close the file here? And it's like part of a magic email that I found somewhere. So I just, I try. I love playing around with finding creative swaps for the. Just following up. Have you found any that are work for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think if I were to go back fully to help us make that a success. Every conversation that you have, you should be intentional about setting next steps before you're done in that conversation. So that any following up that you are doing is actually, A, already given permission to do, and B, it's you honoring your word. Which, if we're talking sales psychology, which is a big part of the platform that I coach on, that's exactly what we want. We want these nuanced, uh, actions that we're taking, like doing what we say we're going to do, when we're going to do it. Now, you following up, like you said on, on your own agenda is actually you demonstrating that that person can trust you. Because whatever you agreed upon in your last conversation, you are doing what you said you were going to do. And, you know, some people are like, yeah, but what if you're still bugging them or what? Okay, that, like, are you or aren't you? I don't know. The bottom line is they gave you permission for the next step and you are honoring your word. And so if I were to exchange, you kind of use one of the ones that I use. It's, hey, last time we connected, you had mentioned xyz, you had mentioned you were going to review the proposal. You had mentioned that I should follow up. On Tuesday afternoon, you had mentioned whatever. Nobody can argue with their own words. So I say something that is factual, and then I say, when would be a good time for us to reconnect? When would be a good time for us to jump back on a call? Because now me asking that is not on my agenda if I've put that word or that phrase in there first. Last time we connected, you had mentioned, now my request to jump back on a call is in service to both of us because it's something that we had agreed upon. So psychologically, I'm planting that seed before I say, when can we get on A call.

Speaker A: Beautiful. It's assumptive that you're continuing the conversation. Awesome. Very cool. All right. Uh, do you have any other before we.

Speaker B: I think it's a fun game. I mean, I could play it all night. Carlos go, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. They could be a map. This could be all.

Speaker B: How much time do we have?

Speaker A: One more. We got time for one more. What's another favorite swap?

Speaker B: So this was when I was at my corporate company. This was a very big deal for me. I told you I had some money hang ups. I also had, uh, a, uh, hang up around commitment to something that I was or. Or asking somebody to commit to something, AKA a contract. I hated the word contract. And if. If I hated it, I knew my clients must hate it too. And I could not get. That was the hurdle in every conversation that I could not get past because they didn't want to sign a contract. And the reason I couldn't get past it is I agreed with them. I'm like, I wouldn't want to sign it either. I don't want to sign contracts. I don't want to be stuck with something. And so then I thought, okay, let me find a way to get relatable and first express that I bet you're a bit like me. And committing to something feels a little uncomfortable. Especially if you don't know yet if it's going to work for you, would that be right? Well, yeah. So I'm going to be fully transparent from the get go about our process. If we do decide to do business together, what is required? So one of the things that is required is a service agreement between the two of us. Just to outline expectations so that both parties understand. But because I know you're like me, and you said committing to things feels uncomfortable, if I could show you a way that you can get out of that contract without penalty before the time is up, if you're not happy with us, would that make it really easy for you to be able to move forward? And so right from the get go, and some people were like, oh my gosh, you shouldn't talk about contract or you shouldn't talk about price before. But I'm like, hey, hey, hey, I'm on your side. I get it. I don't want to sign contracts either. However, if you and I are to move forward, we're going to need a contract in place for me to be able to offer you what we're planning. I'm guessing that that's something that feels a little, you know, whatever. Uncomfortable. You're not sure yeah, totally. Okay, so if I could show you a way that you can get out of it without penalty, would that make this an easier move for you? Yes, that would. And that just, I felt, did a lot of things. It showed them that, uh, sure, there's some things that we're going to have to agree upon to move forward, but if I can be on your side with this and I can show you how this is actually going to benefit you, and if it doesn't, you're out. Does that make it easier? And then it's like, and you and I've talked about this, Carlos, then it's not the me versus them. It was the, uh, we're in this together. It's us versus this. And honestly, the way I did business, even when I was at my corporate company, I operated like a solopreneur. Yes, I had my company's logo support, everything else behind me, but the way I operated was as if it was my own business. And so I was navigating and negotiating between the prospect I was trying to help and my company, who could give us the support that they needed. And I just looked at myself as the liaison between getting everybody what they needed.

Speaker A: You're an advocate. You're an advocate for them. Right. And you were an advocate for both that you were, in essence, you know, trying to make it work where everybody wins.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: I love that. Yeah, that's really good. And that's a very complex one to do. Right. It's. How do you appease someone's nerves or uncertainty about, like, uh, if I go all in with something with you and I want to get out, like, I don't want to be stuck if the service is poor. What you're promising you're going to give me is not up to par because I. I don't know. I've never worked with you in the past. I mean, you seem nice. So I think. I think that's wonderful.

Speaker B: You know, that one other thing I'll say about that, too, because of what you just said, Carlos, I. That allowed me to also be transparent. So what we sold in my corporate company was a service which was run by humans, which meant it was inevitably going to get up. And although I wanted to position us as the bright and shiny, we're going to be your solution. Your current customer or your current, you know, supplier isn't doing it right. They're messing it up. We're going to do it better. I knew I could not in integrity make that claim. I knew we were good at what we do. I knew that I was going to hold their hand through the process and be their best advocate. So that it as smoothly as I paved the way that I would, but I couldn't guarantee that we weren't going to mess up. So I said, hey, you know, is, is a contract going to be an issue? Well, I don't really want to sign anything. Okay, if I could show you how I can get out of it, would that help? Yeah, that would help. Now the other thing I'm going to tell you is everybody that I work with is really happy with us. However, I can't guarantee we're not going to mess up. We're a group of humans who cares greatly about the people we work with. We also are humans and we make mistakes. So that's one of the reasons why I like people to know that if this isn't working for you, I will show you the easiest way out. Because I would never want somebody to be stuck in something that's not working for them. But if you understand that initially there might be more hang ups and hiccups as we get to know you and we, we become more familiar with you and you'll give us that fair shot to, to make this as smooth as possible, then I can guarantee that you will be happy with who we are and how we service you. Not because it's going to be perfect, but because we really do care and we'll do the job the best way that we can.

Speaker A: And that transparency and that uh, non agenda approach, I think just putting all the cards on the table makes you more magnetic. Makes them, you know, makes you draw them in more to you. And I think you and I know this and many folks who have interpreted sales to be that sleazy, there's an intended agenda that's like the old way, that's the, the way that Glengarry Glen Ross and Wolf of Wall street And all these 80s and 90s movies have portrayed closing sales to be. And we know that being transparent, being genuine, being detached from the outcome too. Because I want to shift a little to entrepreneurs because it's a little bit different than working for a corporation. I know that maybe in your environment it was, I don't know if it was full commission or if there was a paycheck at the end of the two weeks, there's a little bit less uh, pressure. But like when you're an entrepreneur and you're literally, you are the business and you closing a client is what's going to keep your business running. There's a lot of these Emotions that come in and sometimes when that revenue looks like close to zero for the month or for some period of time, you know, our, uh, feel those feelings kind of get in the way of those sales conversations, the desperation, and, and I think that's where you come in brilliantly to help people kind of strengthen that mindset and stay focused on being in service and not focusing so much on the outcome, but more on the moment and the client and the mission, which is hard to do. It really is right when you're like, I don't know if I'm going to make my mortgage payment next month, especially if you're in the startup journey or if you're kind of in that up and down. But my point is, I guess, what advice or what's the biggest lesson that you teach your clients when they have to deal with that?

Speaker B: Well, first of all, there ain't no shame in ramen noodles. I think there are going to be, especially when you're new to the entrepreneurship journey. It's a roller coaster, not just in terms of, like, successes and, and, and wins, but emotions. Uh, one of my first coaches told me this, and it was so profound and it's so true. She said, being an entrepreneur is a giant self development seminar.

Speaker A: Amen.

Speaker B: You think you, you think you're starting a business and what you're actually doing is starting a new relationship with yourself. You will, you will get to know yourself in ways that you never could have imagined. Parts of you that you never knew existed. And that's. And I think on those months where you're like, am I going to be able to make pay? Am I going to be able to pay my mortgage? Am I going to be able to do what I said I was going to do? I think some of those dark moments expose parts of us that maybe never had to show up before. And you learn new strengths, you learn new resolve, you learn new tenacity. You learn, it's going to make me cry right now. You learn new depths of emotion that you didn't know you had. And in the same way, when you have these big, massive wins that you are like, holy, it can get that good. You learn new heights that, like, you never knew you were gonna get to. And obviously, we don't want to be the pendulum swinger that's going up and down. We want to. And I think this is what entrepreneurship does. It helps us learn to manage who we are, manage our emotions and lead ourselves. Like, I know I say selling is serving a lot. I really believe what sales is, is Self leadership. I think it's about you understanding how to lead yourself at a higher level because the only place you can ever really take people is where you have gone yourself. And that's why those pieces of like vulnerability and transparency and being curious and being empathetic actually require us to be that way with ourselves. Which means we have to be willing and open to have a brand new relationship with ourselves and know that it's not all going to be shits and gays gigs. It's not all going to be fun. But I was just saying it last night to a friend. I said she was sharing a challenge with me that she's having in her business and I was sharing a challenge with her and we've been really good friends now for many years. And I said I don't think we've ever really had conversations where there weren't some challenges or sometimes maybe it was just celebrations that we were having. But I'm starting to really think this is just what business is. Mhm. It's just constant challenges. But here's the thing, if you don't choose entrepreneurship, you're going to choose something else that is also constant challenges. I don't think that there's like an actual smooth sea out there that we can just float around on for the rest of our lives. I think it's about choosing the challenges that we're going to be willing to keep showing up for. And knowing that the journey is, is actually the gift.

Speaker A: Yeah, Hell yeah. The journey is the reward. I learned that for the first time, believe it or not. And you're gonna love this because it's a basketball star. It was a uh, Kyrie Irving since some. And he was going through all this, right, like all this controversy about all these comments he made about who knows what. And he, I think he's mentally back in, in a normal scenario, but he was talking a lot about ups and downs. Like the journey is the rewards. The first time I, I heard that from someone, I know that's somewhere else, but I was like, yeah, absolutely. There's so many things, uh, I would love to reinforce and unpack. But you said it so beautifully to lead yourself at a higher level. But one, one, one challenging thought came to me and it's something that I dealt with especially when I was a young banker, 20 something years old, expected to teach people twice my age how to retire, how to plan for retirement. There's this, you know, you have a lot of things that, that you might be able to offer the world where like through some you know, wisdom, knowledge, experience. You've been there, you've done that. Because you, you said this, right? Like, if you've been there before, you can take them to that route. But what happens when. And I'm sure you've, you've had clients, because sometimes the material thing, the material objection comes up. For me, it's like, well, I'm not a millionaire, so who am I to coach and develop a millionaire, right? Like, I don't know if that's ever a thought that's popped in your head. Yeah, I coach millionaires.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Right. And it's like, I've been able to overcome that obstacle. And I just wonder for you or for people who may think, well, I have zero revenue. Who am I to coach someone who has a multimillion dollar successful business or, or I'm X. Who am I to serve client? Why? So how do you help someone break out of that, that, that mindset or that obstacle, that limiting belief?

Speaker B: I think it's getting really clear with ourselves what it is that we actually do. Because let's just take the example of you're helping somebody who makes multiple millions of dollars, but you're not somebody who's ever made multiple millions of dollars. Well, if you're trying to help them with making multiple millions of dollars, then I believe you're out of integrity and you might want to reevaluate what you're actually doing. I think a lot of people who have never made multiple millions of dollars could still be very beneficial to somebody who does. Because what is it that you're actually helping them with? Is there a mindset piece, are you a breath work coach that helps them find their center and understand better how to control their own nervous system, like, which ultimately, let's be honest, is going to help them make, make more millions of dollars. But your messaging, your claim, should not necessarily be that you're going to help them do something that you've never done. You're going to help them do something that you are an expert in, something that you've probably overcome yourself or you've helped others overcome it. I would definitely make sure you have proof of concept, but make sure you're really clear on what it is that you're doing. Because, you know, let's bring Tom Brady back in. This was my first. Aha. Uh, realization because, because listen, I've had that, I think we've all had the imposter syndrome. Like, who am I to help somebody? Right? Even, even. Let me tell you this funny story. If we were to go Back to. So I was number one in the nation two years in a row, and then the third year, I wasn't. Well, first of all, I thought I needed to quit, because I was like, if I'm not number one, they're gonna fire me. And secondly, then when I started working with my business coach and I'd become an entrepreneur, she was like, oh, you're a sales coach. You're this, you're that. She's like, you were number one in the nation. So, like, like, I mean, everybody would be blessed to learn from you, like, what went on in your mind to help you become number one. People would love to unpack that and work with you. And I said, but I wasn't number one last year. And she goes, excuse me? I said, but I wasn't number one last year. She goes, do you think the Bulls won every single championship? And I went, well. And she said, once a New York Times bestseller, always a New York Times bestseller. Once an Oscar winner, always an Oscar winner. And that reframed it for me. And then the other reframe came when I realized every successful person has coaches, right? Including Tom Brady. So I said, let's bring Tom Brady back in. Well, guess what Tom Brady's coach has never done. Tom Brady's quarterback coach. I'm not saying. I'm not talking about any of the coaches for the teams that he played on. I'm saying his, uh, own personal coach. You know what his personal coach has never done? Done Won seven Super Bowls. You know how we know that? Because the only person that's done it is Tom Brady. So how could Tom Brady's coach be an integrity with what he was helping him do? And I'm sure he had a mindset coach, and I'm sure he had a skills coach. I'm sure he had a coach for different areas. Right? They were people that were the experts in those pieces. They weren't saying, we're going to be the person that helps you win seven Super Bowls. They're saying, you're going to be successful and win a lot of Super Bowls because we're going to help you master yourself with what we know, with the vehicle that we have to take you there.

Speaker A: Jesus. Gosh. Now, it just. Just went by, and it's like, I think we can go for another hour, Nicole, nerding out on this stuff, but I want to be respectful of your times. I'll. I'll leave you with, uh, two last questions once, a quick one. Okay. I know that we're both were brought together thanks to the magic of exactly what to say. And I was, like, thinking about asking you this question because I never asked it before. But what was the first set of magic words that you learned that maybe, like, transformed your approach or gave you, like, that reframe where you're like, oh, my God, this is what I've been missing. Like, do you. Do you have one?

Speaker B: It's so cliche because it's probably what a lot of people. Same answer would be, but I'm not sure if it's for you. But it opened up my world. And long story short, I found the book. This will make sense. I'll make the connection. That year that I wasn't number one. I was. It's all kinds of interesting reasons why I had gotten myself to that place. But I had gotten a little disillusioned about what it was all about for me because I become very much like, I'm number one. I'm number one. And I'm like, wait a minute. This is about the people I'm helping. What got me out of bed before, I was good at this, and it was building relationships with people and helping them solve their problems. And so I was like, all right, God, if you need me to get out of bed and get excited about this, then let's get excited about building stronger relationships. What's a good way to do that? When how to Win Friends and Influence People is the book that popped up in my world. So I read that again as soon as I was done with that. It said, you might want to try this little book called exactly what to say. And that was in 2017. I opened it up. The first phrase was, I'm not sure if it's for you, but. And then I just. I listened to the book non stop about a hundred times.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that phrase is like the first one that usually gets introduced because it's the first one in the book. And it, you know, when you. When you listen to Phil speak, he usually talks about the rejection free. But it's that freedom from wanting to, like, take power back in rejection. Because it's like, I get to reject you customer. You don't get to reject me. Right. Like, it's part. It's a personal empowerment of saying, yeah, you could do. You do it with curiosity. You're saying you have a choice to say no, and there's okay, and I'm okay with it. And I'm just letting you know, like, directly, I'm not sure if it's for you. Like, you get to choose whether it is for them or it's not. And then, uh, you know, obviously that we talk about the power of how it connects to the subconscious, and it draws the person into. With the curiosity gap. But it, It. But that brought. Brought our curiosity further into and deeper into the importance of, like, choosing the right words and being precise. Because this is all about precision. Right? You look at surgeons that are like neurosurgeons, I think about precision. You think about athletes who want to just get better, better, better. It's inches, it's centimeters, it's minor tweaks that give them the huge advantage. And in sales, the most important tool that we have, not only is it listening, but is exactly what we say, you know, to influence, to build relationships, to build trust, and to accelerate relationship building. So. That's awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I had a feeling you were going to say that.

Speaker B: It's a popular phrase. I mean, but here's the thing. I'm such a nerd about all of them. And I know you are, too. I. I say they're all my favorite.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Every time I teach, but I'm like, this is my favorite. I'm like, wait, I said that about the other one. But. But it's true.

Speaker A: They're all super powerful. Okay, to close it off, I'm going to do a quick lightning round of questions. No story, no context, just one word answer. Or a sentence. M. Okay, so you already mentioned a book already, but I'm going to ask you your favorite sales or business book that changed the game for you.

Speaker B: You're a badass at making money.

Speaker A: Okay. Favorite book you're reading right now?

Speaker B: Super Communicators.

Speaker A: I saw that you posted that earlier. One habit. You can't live without chocolate. Nice. Oh, that's a habit.

Speaker B: I don't know. Can it count as a habit? Eating chocolate.

Speaker A: Awesome. What's a phrase or mantra you live by?

Speaker B: Everything's working out for me. Excuse me? Everything is always working out for me. Uh, I say it about 800 times a day.

Speaker A: Beautiful. If you could have dinner with any entrepreneur or leader, who would it be?

Speaker B: So many come to mind, Living or dead? Mel Robbins.

Speaker A: Nice. I'm actually reading her book right now, so.

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker A: What is a fun fact about you that most people don't know?

Speaker B: I could probably think of better ones, but I went to Michael Jackson's funeral.

Speaker A: What the actual F. Okay. That's beautiful. I love it. We're going to end it on that note. That's super interesting. Very cool. If anybody wants to know more about that story. Reach out, folks.

Speaker B: Reach out.

Speaker A: You can reach out to Nicole. Nicole, what's the best way for anyone to get to know you more, follow you and learn about. About what you do?

Speaker B: Find me on the gram. I am on Instagram at the Nicole Kramer. T H e Nicole Kramer. Uh, there were other Nicole Kramers on there and I was like, I am the Nicole Kramer and happy to share my story. Michael Jackson's funeral or, uh, give you a free. A free resource that will help you with your sales. Happy to do.

Speaker A: That's awesome. Thank you so much, Nick. I super grateful. It's. It's always so fun to hang out with you and to chat it. It just feels so natural world.

Speaker B: Likewise, Carlos. This was fun. Thank you.

Speaker A: Thanks everyone for listening in. Until next time.