Your Company Isn’t Outgrowing Chaos. It’s Missing Structure with Brian Hinton

Welcome to Scaling with People, your weekly playbook for turning chaos into compounding growth. Each week we go under the hood with battle test experts in all areas of business, from marketing to sales, operation finance, and people, plus product and leadership to unpack the plays, numbers, and systems that turn chaos into compounding growth. Learn straight from founders and experts who've done it and continue to do it successfully. There's zero fluff, just moves that you can still immediately.

This podcast is brought to you by Guide to HR, human expertise, AI-powered impact. Welcome everyone to today's Skilling with People podcast. I'm Gloria Curry, your host and CEO and founder to Guide to HR. If you think leadership is about control, this episode might break your entire operating system.

Today we sit down with Brian Hinton, COO and EOS integrator at Bader Law, who's scaling a high growth firm by flipping the script. Leadership as service, not authority. From faith-driven decision making to building cultures rooted in trust, clarity, and accountability. This is what it actually looks like to scale people without losing your soul or your standards.

Well, welcome, Brian, and welcome our audience. Brian, love to learn a little bit more about you. Tell the audience a little bit about yourself. First and foremost, I'm excited to share this time here with you.

Thank you for the invitation. Oh, absolutely. So you set an amazing spot, kind of setting it up. But again, I'm Brian Hinton.

I am again the chief operating officer. We are EOS-driven organization. So I'm the integrator, which simply means that I work with our CEO, who's our visionary. I catch all of his big ideas and try to bring them to life in a very structured and strategic manner.

So I have the opportunity to lead an amazing team in Atlanta, Georgia, Georgia, excuse me, for a firm called Bader Law, where we get to serve our African American and Hispanic communities in a very, very impactful way. That's awesome. So diving into leadership, what's something founders think is good leadership, but it actually slows scaling down from your experience? Yeah, I mean, I so most CEOs and founders that I have the pleasure of supporting, I find that they are big thinkers.

And a lot of times it's about speed, right? It's about sense of urgency and scaling. And as you're trying to scale the organization, one of the things that we can potentially miss is making sure you have a strong foundation. So one of the things I try really hard to do is to take the what and the where we're going and really, really adopt strong principles on how we do it, what we need to successfully execute it, and when the organization is able to digest it.

And just that partnership with the CEO and founder, being able to understand what the priorities are, and then challenge them and push a little bit to make sure they understand that all of those things have time and resources allocated to it, and making sure we're doing the right thing for our organization and for the individual we get to serve. That sounds wonderful, but let's put it into practice, right? Like, what have you seen actually work? And what have you seen kind of being like maybe warning signs for those wanting to implement something, but maybe they're starting to go off track?

Like, what guardrails do you put in and help the CEO implement into a business to make this a reality? Yeah, we ask some simple questions like the great idea, right? It's always great, but do we have the system in place, right? Do we have the systems?

Do we have the right processes? Do we have the right people, like the right persons in the right seats to make sure that we can do it and do it well? And then also, is it understood and documented so that people have a process that they can flow into? And if you can't answer yes to those questions, that great idea may be great in theory, but when you try to roll it out and when you try to implement it, you end up losing time and also losing people in the process because you weren't able to educate and bring people along every step of the way.

And if you're talking about scaling and trying to maximize growth and maximize volume, again, the foundation is just something you can't overlook. I couldn't say that even better. Like one of the things I notice founders do is they go out and they hire because they think they need this role or this level, but they don't stop and actually realize what is it that my business needs, not just like today, but in the near future, depending on how far out some of these startups can't go very far out in future-driven decision making because things constantly change, but you know, understanding the need now, but in the future as well, and trying to find the right person.

But I also see that they flounder because they don't stop and truly focus on the true needs. And then they hire someone who is great, but is not great for their business because it's not what their business truly needs. Yeah. I always ask my founders, what does success look like today and tomorrow?

And if we can get it really clear on defining what success looks like, it gives me the blueprint that I need now to go make sure we find the right prototype for it. Absolutely. And having that kind of like that, you're you're saying kind of what is needed. You're telling what people what good looks like.

That is the garwells that we as human beings need so we can go out and take our experience and our knowledge as a subject matter expert that you hired me for, right? And then let me go do the job and I'll stay within, I'll stay on the right track because you give me those guardwells. But if you don't, that's when people kind of go all over the place, too. Absolutely.

I mean, one of my famous slogans is clear is kind. Um, I just think that clarity is the cornerstone of making sure you set yourself up for success. Yeah, a great leader is going to be able to set those expectations, what good looks like, and then let that person flourish and go. And then they, you know, that helps the business, that helps you as the leader, and you can and it helps the individual too, right?

To be successful. So what do you see like where do most leadership models kind of break under real growth pressure? What have you seen not work? I think we talked about it a moment ago.

I think that it's the right person in the right seat, um, really understanding where the organization is, where it's growing to, and being clear about roles and responsibilities. Um, I think starting startups have the privilege in some cases of sometimes you wear several different hats. But as you're looking to scale and grow, that's also one of the challenges that can stunt growth, is you have people who don't have the bandwidth to execute at a high level, or individuals that become generalists but not really subject matter experts, and not having the right individuals with the right set of toolkits in the toolbox, being able to push the organization forward keeps the organization stunted and it doesn't allow the organization to flourish in the right level.

Yeah, and sometimes I see startups where they grow and they go from pre-seed to series A, B, C, so forth, and they don't constantly re-evaluate what roles they need, what skills they need, and who is the right fit in those particular roles with those skills, and then ultimately kind of, like you said, kind of flatline a little bit. Have you what have you seen in regards to like leaders that do that? And what helps them kind of flip that script for them to re-evaluate and push forward and grow the team?

Yeah, so one of the things we do at our firm is we have a quarterly session and we do a couple of things. One of the things we do is a leadership assessment. So we ask ourselves the tough questions first, like have we provided our teams with the clarity, with the tools, and with the processes they need to succeed? And if we can't answer yes to that, we start to get really deep around how do we create that clarity across the firm?

But then we also take it a kind of an outward-looking approach and we look at each one of our departments, each one of our teams, and we ask ourselves: are these the right set of metrics and KPIs that we should be evaluating for where we're going? Do we have the right individuals with the right skill sets? Sometimes it's the right person who's a culture fit, right? So you want to keep them in your organization, but they may not be in a seat where they're really able to thrive.

And having those honest conversations around where people are so we can right size and right-fit them makes the world of a difference. And then we start looking at our processes, not to make immediate changes, but to identify what are our blind spots, what are our gaps, what will we need in six to 12 to 18 months that we should start planning for now so we can start developing that strategy to make sure to your point, we don't flatline and remain flat. We're able to think about it from a short-term and a long-term perspective.

Yeah, I love that so much because it is important. You obviously need to get the work done today, but what's the point in getting it done today if you're not looking to your future and understanding where you need to go? You might miss your exit. Key to the analogy of the road, right?

Um, one thing I always tell leaders, any manager level, right, when you're talking about growing your team or what you need or going out and hiring, is like I kind of say, let's put the brakes on for a second, let's talk about the team, what and let's let's take people off the table. Let's just have an empty org chart of skills and level and experience that you need. And then once you kind of have that mapped out, then go back and say, here's all the people I have based off of their skills and experience and level of expertise, where can they be slotted in?

And then you go, okay, here's the holes, here's the three or four roles that I have holes on. And unfortunately, here are maybe some people left on the list that don't fit my org anymore. That's always the hardest part, I find. Yeah, I mean, it's it's taking the subjectivity out of it, right?

And I think you hit the nail on the head, like objectively thinking, like, what are the roles, responsibilities that are needed to execute at a high level, people aside, right? And then you look at the team that you have and you say, Do we have the right individuals with the right set of tools in order to help us win? And it doesn't mean that you throw the people away. You have a unique opportunity to find another space in your organization where they can thrive and the business can grow.

Exactly. Or maybe they're just not quite there because they just need maybe another project to get them over and get promoted. And so, where what skills can you help them ramp up and grow to be able to fit that in the timeframe that the business needs? And or like you said, maybe repurpose them somewhere else, especially with some individuals who've been in an organization for a very long time and help the organization grow.

You know, you want to you want to kind of appreciate them, right? Because you probably couldn't have gotten there without them. And so, how can you help them get to the next level as the business grows to the next level? So, kind of flipping a little bit, leadership of service, it's such a great idea, but I also can probably see many uh listeners cringe on that.

Servant leadership, it sounds great, but where does it get misused or misunderstood, especially in scaling companies? Yeah, I mean, the way I look at servant leadership is pretty simply put like this. I have a privilege to have a seat at the table to represent the best interests of the firm. And it's not just the firm, but it's our people, it's their families and the communities that we serve.

That in itself takes a level of humility to recognize that it is a privilege to have that opportunity to represent your firm. And when you look at it from that perspective, I think that you approach the work differently and you approach the work with more purpose more than just a mission to get accomplished. But I think sometimes where it gets misused is I think that we misinterpret servant as we have to do everything. And leaders fall into the trap of a lack of delegation, like elevate and delegate, making sure that we are focused on the right set of initiatives, the right set of focuses, and making sure we're empowering our team to be able to lead and carry the charge forward.

So many founders, so many leadership teams want to hold all the information, hold all the decision in that small room, but we're not the end users that are impacted by it, most likely. So sharing that wealth, sharing that knowledge, and giving more space across the organization so that the team that is you are emerging and growing also can help you win. I love that. And and so when you're thinking about delegating, you said elevate and delegate.

I've that I've never heard that term, like that terminology together. That is so impactful because I think a lot of leaders and founders also, but leaders in general, people of manage that are managing other people, they tend to do exactly what you said. It's like, oh, you know, someone comes with a problem, let me solve it for you, right? Instead, I always recommend someone comes into your office, has a problem, ask them how they would solve it.

Get them to be the thought partner, the one that's actually finding the solution, because that's going to help them grow. It doesn't mean you don't know the answer. It just means you're helping them grow. And that is like that to me is the number one priority of a manager, a leader in a business.

And you also have an opportunity to gain an ambassador because now when you come to me with ideas and solutions, it's not my idea that we are forcing down the organization. It's something you ideated, you came up with, and now you're able to support it and you're able to lead through influence, even if you don't have a leadership title. So I think that opening up that door and creating a space for other people to have a voice in the room, even if they're not the final voice, but being able to contribute gets more engagement, it helps with retention.

And ultimately you get a better set of ideas because they see things at their level that sometimes we just miss. That is so true. And I love like the fact that you say it helps, it helps the culture, right? It helps retention because people want to be valued and they want to be heard.

And they and everyone knows generally, I should say, everyone knows that all your ideas are not going to be implemented and you're not going to always give a yes to everything you want, right? So, but just being knowing that you're being heard and that you're being valued of that's a great idea. Let's see where we can go. We might not be able to implement it now, or you know, whatever the answer might be.

But I think that to me is what gets a lot of people out of bed, right? It's especially when you're working hard, you're working lots of hours, you're working on hard things, trying to solve problems, trying to support people. You're a law firm, you got you, you know, your clients are trying to support them and have them have a win. That's a lot of pressure.

But to know that you can come to the table with anybody and say, hey, I have this idea. One, that might help you be a better employee, but it also could help your peers. Absolutely. I think the other thing, the mistake that we as leaders sometimes make is we don't close the loop.

Um, I think we have to ground people in the why. So we talked about this great idea that a frontline leader or even a teammate brings to the table. Maybe it's not fit for purpose for our organization, but going back to the individual and saying, hey, I appreciate the idea. We're not going to move forward with this idea right now.

And here's the reason why. I think people don't always need to see their idea pushed all the way forward, but they want to make sure they were genuinely heard and also understand if it was not a great idea. I think you're now empowering them to think outside the box. So when they come back with the next great idea, now they're thinking from a different lens.

That's true. And I find a lot of leaders, it's hard. It's hard to do that. I mean, even in my past corporate lives, it's hard.

And I wonder, like with what you've experienced and your uh knowledge and expertise, like how would you recommend or suggest a leader who is like, yeah, I want to, but I'm like, I don't know how. Maybe, maybe the why isn't clear to them, right? So, how what's the process in getting that clarity for yourself and then being able to communicate it to your employees? Yeah, I mean, I think part of it again goes back to what we've talked about before, like before we start the mission, understanding what success looks like.

So you already have a framework for what success looks like. And I think as leaders, it's important for us to make sure before we move forward or even cascade any message, we're clear on what we're doing, why we're doing it, and the importance and the impact that it has so that when your team comes to you with that great idea that may not be fit for purpose, you are enabled to tell them the why. And I think the reason why we don't do it sometimes is just uncomfortability, right?

I think we believe that no one wants to hear no. And I think that's true in part. I think people don't want to hear no without understanding the why behind it. And I think that's really where the magic happens.

Yeah, yeah. I find a lot of times founders have a hard time explaining that. And going back to what you said, creating that foundation can help them then get to that clarity to communicate to within the leaders and have a bigger discussion. Because I find that if you can get that to that clarity, sometimes the no turns into a maybe or it's a no, but it's just it's a not now.

Right now, right? Not right now. Yeah, maybe because there's other priorities that we absolutely have to complete and accomplish, and then we can add this to the next level and the next layer of ideas and activities. So I love the fact, you know, we both are faith-based um individuals.

And I love the fact that you're so open about it. How does that practically show up in high-stake business decisions for you and for those around you? I think for me, it's just leading with integrity. Um, it's having the willingness to do the difficult right instead of the convenient wrong.

And I think sometimes when we are trying to grow and scale organizations, there's a lot of ideas and a lot of deadlines on the table. And it's easy to do what's convenient sometimes. And for me, I always ask myself, what is the convenient thing to do, but what is the impactful thing to do? And I try to hold myself to a high level of rigor to make sure, even if it slows down the timeline, even if it slows down production for a little while, that we're making the right decisions.

Because in my world, we're not just impacting widgets, we're impacting people. These are individuals who have come to us at the most vulnerable times of their lives, and every decision that we make is impactful to their well-being, not just emotionally, but financially and also physically. So I want to make sure that we're always pausing to ask ourselves what is the right answer, and then holding ourselves accountable to do it, even if it's uncomfortable for us. So I'm thinking about some of uh the listeners out there that might be not so necessarily tied to the human impact as your law firm is, but maybe a tech company, you know, maybe it's a nice fun tool that people use or whatever it might be.

How do you maintain integrity when growth and I would say even like investors, boards create pressure to move faster, make more money, right? That's something that we're not talking about, but like the pressure of like, you know, meeting your quarterly earnings, um, you know, when that's faster than maybe your principles, how what would you say to listeners who are like, that sounds great, but I got these boards and investors breathing down my neck and I got to meet this financial deadline?

Yeah, I think that's where the risk analysis comes in, right? You have to understand what are the stakes on the table, um, what what is the mission, right? Understanding that why again. And then also making sure that I think sometimes the the tendency is we want to push so that we can get things done quicker because we are many times a for-profit business, right?

We are in the world of making money and building solutions. But I also find that sometimes we can skip corners if we don't pause and ask that why. Yeah. I think too, there might be an opportunity for the listeners to take a moment to kind of look at long-term ROI, right?

If you are making integrity people-driven decisions, like you've said in your past examples, then ultimately that creates a culture that is really thriving. And you got innovation, you got creativity coming to the table, people bringing you ideas that the leadership team may never have thought of or didn't realize there was a problem in this back corner that was, you know, short. Um, I don't want to say that. Um, that is delaying your your deadlines or execution of products and services that could have a financial impact.

Ultimately, sometimes it does take a minute or two for things to get implemented. So then you see that change. It's not a flip of the switch. So ultimately, somehow tying, let's delay this because this is going to have a longer ripple effect and positive if we make the right decision.

Right. So maybe tying that to the ROI of long term. It is hard though, I find in the startup world. Um, where it's hard sometimes to look at the longer play.

So it's really hard to take on the mentality of slowing down the speed up sometimes. Yeah. So I'd like to kind of go into like building culture, right? And and we talked a little bit about how integrity and interacting with people helps them bring in innovation.

It helps support the culture and retention. We obviously talk about culture a lot. You and I are both HR practitioners at heart. So, what are the non-negotiable systems that actually create culture from your perspective?

I think I'll tell you when I started at the firm, one of our biggest hurdles was we had to move from a culture of familiarity to a culture of accountability. Um man, that's a big gap. It was tough, right? Um, because you don't want to lose the connectivity and the collaboration and the likeness of one another, but you also want to sacrifice value and product.

So some of the things we did, we went back to the basics. We really sat down as a leadership team and made sure we understood the vision. Because a lot of times the disconnect between culture and really having a culture that is thriving is a disconnect with the vision. So we we ask ourselves some simple questions like who are we?

What are our questions? Values, like what do we believe? And making sure we're really, really crystal clear about what those are and we make those non-negotiables in our organization talk about the right person. We look at the right person through the lens of our core values.

Do you embody and are you an avatar for similar things that we believe in? And then we also challenge ourselves to think about kind of the basic principles of like who do we have an opportunity to represent and serve? Do we have an identity crisis? What is our brand?

And getting really clear about that. And I think that's the foundation of making sure that you can have a surviving and a thriving culture because you're connecting people to real life things and tangible things they can connect to. That is huge. I mean, accountability also can create a world of appreciation, too, right?

Because I know that I know I'm doing the right thing, and the my peer who's not is going to be held accountable and is going to either be forced to do the right thing or move on, therefore valuing what I'm doing even greater. And I think that is a piece that a lot of leaders miss is understanding the impact of not keeping accountable, uh holding accountable, holding people accountable and how that has an impact on your high performers. Absolutely. And I think that it's tough work getting really, really clear about roles and responsibilities and making sure you have documented processes and making sure that people understand how their piece fits into the whole.

It's really, really heavy work. But the reward that you get is it creates a level of clarity that everyone knows what's expected. They know how they can succeed, and they understand the consequences for not rising to the table. Here's what we can do to help develop and get you back on place if you want it.

And a lot of times I've seen like accountability can sometimes impact the psychological safety that people need to be innovative and creative. So, how do you build that psychological safety net, I guess you could say, without creating a culture of comfort and distracting from that accountability? Yeah, I think it boils down to consistency. Like I think you have to be clear and then you have to be consistent.

The standard is the standard. We don't deviate from the standard. And if anything, we're raising the bar, we're not going beneath it. And I think that the series of just open, honest dialogues, number one, making sure people understand what those expectations are.

Number two, they have a tangible place they can go to look at those expectations. So if they're unclear, they can write size for themselves. And there's consistent, fluid conversation happening up, down, and all around about what's working, what's not working, what do we need to do as a team to make sure that we can meet the mission and arrive on time, on budget, and within the guardrails? Yeah.

So I like so resonate with everything you're saying right now. But I'll let me just kind of tweak it a little bit and do a push here. What do you see breaks first when growth gets chaotic? Revenue's on the line, people aren't performing, and it's just things like things are out of control.

What do you see breaks first? And how can a founder or someone who's a leader that's listening kind of make note to like get in front, get ahead of that before that bomb blows up? I think the process typically breaks first because you're either trying to cut a corner, skip, skip a step, or to create a new step without thinking about the downstream impacts of it, right? Because everything that I do impacts someone else in my organization.

And I think the tendency sometimes, especially when we're trying to accelerate or we're trying to grow, is we shortcut the process without really pausing, recognizing that that short-term pause is actually gonna help you go even faster once you get it right. But process in our organization is typically the very first thing that becomes sacrificed. So that's where we have what I've been called, the power of the pause. Let's pause, let's talk it out, let's think it through, and then let's proceed.

Or as I've heard, you know, go slow to go fast, right? Sometimes you do need to slow down uh to go fast. And so as we wrap up, I have a question here. If a founder is listening, feels like their culture slipping, what's the first move they should make this week?

I would say the first move would be to get back to the basics, think about your vision and make sure it's clear. And I think the thing that we miss most likely is talking to our people, asking our teams, like, how do you feel about the organization? What is working? Where are we missing the mark?

Are we aligned with who we say we are? Hear from the individuals that have the privilege of doing the work every day and use it as your baseline to start making very strategic decisions. That's amazing. I love that.

So, Brian, I feel like I said I love that a ton of time because I so resonate with everything you said today. I wish we could continue the conversation. I should have you on again at some future point. But it was so great having you here.

For those that listen, I hope you get some really great tidbits on how to create a psychological but accountable culture that leading with integrity and getting back to the basics, keeping it simple as well. Um, and creating those roadmaps that guard well for your employees so they know what good looks like and they can go out and flourish and help grow your business. Thanks for listening. Thanks, Brian, for being on today's podcast.

And uh we look forward to having everyone join us again next week on our next episode. Until then, have a great one. That's a wrap for today's episode of Scaling with People. If you got value from this conversation, do me a favor, share it with someone building something big.

And hey, I'd love to hear your take. Drop a comment, shoot me a message, or start a conversation. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss the bold, unfiltered strategies we drop every week. I'm Gwynberg Cruary, founder and CEO of Guide2HR, where we help high growth companies scale smart with people for strategies and AI powered systems that don't just keep up, they lead.

If you're building fast and want your HR to move faster, head to guide2hr.com and let's talk. And remember, scale isn't just about speed, it's about people. Until next time, have a great one.