The Trust Problem Founders Don't Know They're Creating with Patrick Farran

1 - > SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Scaling with People, your weekly 2 - > playbook for turning chaos into compounding growth. 3 - > Each week we go under the hood with battle test experts in all 4 - > areas of business, from marketing to sales, operation, 5 - > finance, and people, plus product and leadership to unpack 6 - > the plays, numbers, and systems that turn chaos into compounding 7 - > growth. 8 - > Learn straight from founders and experts who've done it and 9 - > continue to do it successfully.

10 - > There's zero fluff, just moves that you can still immediately. 11 - > This podcast is brought to you by Guide to HR, human expertise, 12 - > AI-powered impact. 13 - > Welcome everyone. 14 - > So on today's episode, we sit down with Patrick Ferron, 15 - > founder of Alutum Group, former SAS Institute Consulting 16 - > Director, and former Notre Dame MBA faculty member to unpack why 17 - > trust is the operating system behind every high-performing 18 - > team.

19 - > From transforming one-on-ones into a leadership growth engine 20 - > to diagnosing the hidden culture factors that separate thriving 21 - > teams from struggling ones, Patrick shares practical 22 - > frameworks, leaders can comply immediately. 23 - > So if you're scaling a company and wondering why communication, 24 - > accountability, andor performance still feel harder 25 - > than they should, this conversation may reveal the real 26 - > gap you've been trying to solve.

27 - > Well, welcome, Patrick. 28 - > Excited to have you on the call and excited to get into this 29 - > topic too. 30 - > This is where my wheelhouse is. 31 - > So this is going to be fun.

32 - > But before we get started, tell the audience a little bit more 33 - > about yourself. 34 - > SPEAKER_01: Great. 35 - > So uh I am a founder myself. 36 - > So I try to practice what I preach, and I've worked with 37 - > literally hundreds of founders over six continents, actually, 38 - > uh in multiple capacities, some of them through startup uh 39 - > ecosystems that I've I've uh coached and mentored in.

40 - > And I've got a number of startup uh clients that I've worked 41 - > with. 42 - > So I know the space. 43 - > Uh the other thing that I would add as a practitioner, I also 44 - > bring a research band. 45 - > Well, I have my PhD.

46 - > The only person who called me doctor is my wife when she's 47 - > being snarky. 48 - > Uh but we do try to infuse uh the research best practices 49 - > around uh what we build and test out in the market. 50 - > SPEAKER_02: All right. 51 - > So all my listeners know I love putting my founders on the hot 52 - > seat.

53 - > Can you share an experience you had where if you could go back 54 - > in time, you would tell yourself, don't do that or do it 55 - > differently, a lesson learned with the audience. 56 - > SPEAKER_01: Lesson learned. 57 - > So many. 58 - > Let's see what would top of mind.

59 - > I would say, you know, for for those of us in startups or those 60 - > of us thinking uh about starting uh something up, there's a 61 - > there's a dynamic that I often see though. 62 - > A lot of us romanticize the idea of a startup and being a founder 63 - > and have this notion of what it's going to be. 64 - > We like that idea, but then the reality hits. 65 - > Now, I've always been uh a workaholic, I enjoy work, I find 66 - > deep meaning in my work.

67 - > Uh, but there are just things that we often take for granted 68 - > uh in terms of, you know, I came from corporate and so we had all 69 - > the resources around the business development side of 70 - > things there and so forth. 71 - > And you you realize you have to wear all the hats. 72 - > Uh and there are things that took me a while to learn the 73 - > hard way that I needed to let go, you know, a botched invoice 74 - > or a missed marketing piece, because I'm trying to do all the 75 - > things early on, as many of our founders on online here can 76 - > probably relate to.

77 - > Uh, so the more quickly you can identify those things that you 78 - > need to delegate out and operationalize and so forth. 79 - > Um, I learned the hard way as we all do, um, that you need to, 80 - > you know, be mindful of what areas you're actually spending 81 - > time working in the business. 82 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely. 83 - > It seems to be a recurring theme that that is one of the top 84 - > lesson learns that I hear from founders all over the place, 85 - > including myself.

86 - > I always try to chant throughout the day am I working on the 87 - > right thing at the right time to move the needle in the direction 88 - > I'm like my goal, right? 89 - > Whether it's the goal for the day, week, month, quarter, 90 - > whatever it might be. 91 - > Um, and especially it is hard when you're wearing all those 92 - > hats because sometimes you get into something that you might 93 - > not be the subject matter expert, but you know, you're 94 - > probably like me and we're probably like most founders out 95 - > there.

96 - > We're smart and we want to know how we want to know how the 97 - > sausage is made. 98 - > So there's value in that, right? 99 - > SPEAKER_00: But you need to be able to end cap that. 100 - > SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly.

101 - > And start actually focusing on the areas in which you could 102 - > actually move the business forward. 103 - > So, you know, I know you spent more than 25 years helping 104 - > organizations navigate change, culture, leadership. 105 - > What's one leadership behavior you see consistently separating 106 - > organizations that scale successfully from those that 107 - > struggle? 108 - > SPEAKER_01: My my one big passion, there's multiple ones, 109 - > but one that I really harp on.

110 - > I actually uh did a TED talk on this earlier this season. 111 - > We talk about in our book as well. 112 - > There's this really one of my favorite studies talks about uh 113 - > IKEA furniture. 114 - > Probably most of us know what IKEA furniture is.

115 - > For those that don't, it's a assemble it yourself. 116 - > And there was a really interesting study a number of 117 - > years ago that researchers found that people who put together 118 - > this IKEA furniture valued more highly that furniture, that 119 - > piece of furniture they built, and were willing to pay a 120 - > premium, uh, pay more for that actually than a pre-assembled 121 - > piece of identical furniture. 122 - > In fact, they found it was 63% more, which is pretty crazy when 123 - > you think about it.

124 - > Yeah. 125 - > And I share this because the reality is we are wired as human 126 - > beings to overvalue what we create and what we have voice 127 - > into building. 128 - > And most leaders uh tend to default to, you know, there's 129 - > this old paradigm that we've been taught that leaders should 130 - > have all the answers, right? 131 - > Coming back to our earlier comments about, you know, trying 132 - > to figure it out and so forth.

133 - > And so a lot of times, particularly in the startup 134 - > world, we try to have all the answers and we try to set the 135 - > vision, which is important to have vision, but we neglect to 136 - > bring people along for the ride. 137 - > We neglect to invite them in to co-create that. 138 - > So to the extent that you can create uh opportunities to 139 - > co-create that solution, you're gonna have much more effective 140 - > buy-in and support and accelerate the growth of 141 - > whatever you're trying to scale to do.

142 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that makes sense. 143 - > And you know, I I love my home uh renovation shows. 144 - > And there's one that is all about, you know, putting in the 145 - > grunt work, you know, putting in sweat into sweat equity is what 146 - > they call it, right? 147 - > And I think there's a little bit of that where you when you do 148 - > that, then you do value it a bit more because you know how much 149 - > work went into creating that.

150 - > Um, so you know, one of the things I I see a lot with 151 - > founders and leaders in general is they say trust is important, 152 - > but what do they usually misunderstand about trust from 153 - > your perspective? 154 - > I have my own thoughts. 155 - > Curious if they match your thoughts. 156 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think there's there's a whole body of 157 - > research on this.

158 - > I think to make it really sort of accessible. 159 - > I think one of the big misses is that we view trust as binary. 160 - > You have it or you don't. 161 - > Trust is complicated, right?

162 - > There are at least there's multi-dimensions. 163 - > I say there's at least four practical ones that I encourage 164 - > founders to be mindful of. 165 - > The the first one that we talked about, this kind of harkens back 166 - > to our earlier observation is competence, right? 167 - > We want to be able to have folks understand that we know our 168 - > stuff, right?

169 - > So that's important to engendering a certain amount of 170 - > trust. 171 - > The the other factor that I think is really important to 172 - > note is integrity, right? 173 - > Uh what our words match our actions, what we say, what we 174 - > do, and so forth. 175 - > And if you're not, you're gonna break down on that particular 176 - > dimension.

177 - > Uh the third factor is transparency, right? 178 - > This relates to the co-creation piece, right? 179 - > If I am uh just managing and telling and dictating and so 180 - > forth, but I'm not necessarily commuting communicating or 181 - > inviting folks in along the way, that level of transparency is 182 - > gonna break down pretty quickly. 183 - > And the fourth and perhaps most important is that there's 184 - > psychological safety.

185 - > Um that people feel safe to bring bad news. 186 - > How often are we in environments where I'm afraid to raise the 187 - > flag? 188 - > There's a whole body of research. 189 - > We could spend the entire episode talking about this 190 - > factor a lot.

191 - > But uh cultivating those areas, and if you're failing on uh 192 - > multiple dimensions here, it's really important to think about 193 - > which one, which one needs the most work and focus on that 194 - > would be my my advice to to founders is uh because you can't 195 - > necessarily work on them all at the same time, but it's 196 - > important to be aware of those uh each of those dimensions play 197 - > a role. 198 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 199 - > I'd actually add another one.

200 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it reconciles for for your model. 201 - > SPEAKER_02: I would say the one thing that I think of, if I were 202 - > to maybe pull it all in one bullet point of my experience, 203 - > is is that trust is a two-way street. 204 - > And I find so many times leaders and founders expect to be 205 - > trusted but don't trust those around them. 206 - > And that breaks trust instantly.

207 - > SPEAKER_01: 100%. 208 - > SPEAKER_02: And then they look to me and going, why aren't they 209 - > trusting what I'm telling them? 210 - > I know this is gonna be the best for the company or for them or 211 - > for the department, whatever it is. 212 - > I'm just like, because you don't trust them back.

213 - > Like, yeah, it's crazy. 214 - > SPEAKER_01: Um, so if you think about the competence one, right? 215 - > If I if I'm trying to do everything, and the the implicit 216 - > message to your point is I'm sending is I don't trust you to 217 - > do this marketing piece or I don't trust you to do this 218 - > invoice or whatever, fill in the blank, right? 219 - > And that's uh to your point is you're you're gonna erode that 220 - > trust.

221 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 222 - > So what do you how would like if a leader is like, huh, now they 223 - > have like this epiphany of like, oh, maybe this is where I'm 224 - > struggling, what would be like how can they diagnose where 225 - > they're at in regards to is it a competence, communication, or 226 - > trust problem? 227 - > SPEAKER_01: Like what would be like a step or two that they 228 - > could take if that's I think first of all, noting those areas 229 - > and just doing some self-reflection on them.

230 - > You know, we actually have a team team diagnostic on our site 231 - > that is free if folks want to take it. 232 - > We go a little bit deeper in some of these areas, and I'm 233 - > happy to share those links. 234 - > But I think that the simple answer is really assessing and 235 - > asking yourself do folks feel safe bringing the bad news, 236 - > right? 237 - > It is one easy question to ask, right?

238 - > Do am I tending to be a micromanager, right? 239 - > That might be signaling the competence and your and to your 240 - > point the the two-way trust there, right? 241 - > Yeah. 242 - > Uh um, is there a sense of ownership that folks are feeling 243 - > bought in, or do I feel like I'm always pushing that proverbial 244 - > spaghetti up the rope, so to speak, right?

245 - > Those are indicators that something is probably not 246 - > optimal in one or more of those areas. 247 - > Um, so those are some preliminary thoughts that I 248 - > could already, again, I could spend a whole lot more time on. 249 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just think you know this one scenario where 250 - > I was working with this one founder and he knew he had trust 251 - > problems. 252 - > He knew his leadership or his management group didn't trust 253 - > him, but he also didn't trust them.

254 - > And I think really that was the stem of it. 255 - > He didn't trust them. 256 - > And then he's like, how do I fix it? 257 - > Like, you know, like like, but he also I don't think really 258 - > wanted to fix it, but he wanted it to not be a problem.

259 - > You know what I mean? 260 - > But like I guess part one of that question is what's an 261 - > example that you've seen where a leadership's behavior 262 - > unintentionally destroys trust, even when the leader has good 263 - > intentions. 264 - > SPEAKER_01: I think uh coming back to the co-creation piece, 265 - > how many times for those of us in organizations has someone 266 - > asked for our feedback on a foregone conclusion? 267 - > And it's really just performative, right?

268 - > They really don't care. 269 - > They just want us to rubber stamp and say, Oh, what a great 270 - > idea. 271 - > And then they push back when we we start to actually give them 272 - > the feedback. 273 - > Oh, you really don't want our feedback, apparently, right?

274 - > That there's no quicker way to erode trust than to roll 275 - > something out. 276 - > So, what do you think of this, right? 277 - > When it's not really a genuine ask. 278 - > SPEAKER_02: And I can see um leaders doing that where it's 279 - > like, well, I want to have them feel like they have a say, bring 280 - > them in the fold.

281 - > But not really. 282 - > SPEAKER_00: Really, not really. 283 - > SPEAKER_02: I've seen it happen in in interviews too. 284 - > Like they'll like, you know, especially when you're 285 - > interviewing a leader, oh, we'll bring in our the number two of 286 - > that department, or maybe some of the team members, but they'll 287 - > be at the very end because ultimately all we're doing is 288 - > just having them have an introduction call, but we're 289 - > seeing it in a couple of things.

290 - > SPEAKER_01: And it falls apart then, right? 291 - > And and and it's in fairness, it's a natural human reaction 292 - > because we feel like, oh, it's being more efficient, right? 293 - > Uh I often talk about the dynamic of it's important to go 294 - > slow to go fast. 295 - > All those extra conversations you have on the front end to 296 - > invite people in, invite the feedback, and so forth will save 297 - > you the cleanup on aisle four when everything blows up because 298 - > you neglected to bring folks along for the ride.

299 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally. 300 - > SPEAKER_01: So if someone is listening today and wants to 301 - > strengthen trust immediately, what's one thing they could do 302 - > this week or you know, tomorrow, even one of my favorite 303 - > mechanisms for this is really retooling the way we think about 304 - > and perform one-on-one conversations, right? 305 - > Oftentimes one-on-ones default to they're merely status 306 - > meetings, status updates, and they're very transactional and 307 - > so forth.

308 - > SPEAKER_02: Or because HR is telling the department to do it, 309 - > we become the bad guy so quickly. 310 - > SPEAKER_01: They become a performative, check the box, 311 - > right? 312 - > No one wants to do them and so forth. 313 - > And so that's not at all what I'm suggesting.

314 - > But to really look at those and rebrand those and the way we 315 - > approach those, look at them as opportunities to enhance 316 - > performance, thinking about how we can help folks find 317 - > opportunity within the role. 318 - > Um, I did my my dissertation research, one of my other 319 - > passions is on meaningful work, and so if you can help folks 320 - > craft their role in a way that's meaningful for to them, the 321 - > growth trajectory that they care about, et cetera, the more you 322 - > can tune into that and find those opportunities of synergy 323 - > and just the fact the mere opportunity, the mere ask, tell 324 - > me what you find most engaging about your work here, right?

325 - > And genuinely wanting to understand the answer that 326 - > invites and engenders trust. 327 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 328 - > SPEAKER_01: Um thinking about what that what is that parlay to 329 - > in terms of the development opportunities, both both for the 330 - > individual as well as for the organization, right? 331 - > Are there opportunities here that you're seeing?

332 - > What what do you need to be successful here? 333 - > What are we missing? 334 - > What could we do to enhance things even further? 335 - > And then it's really important the fourth area then is to close 336 - > with with clear accountability.

337 - > What's happening next? 338 - > What's the next thing that we need to identify and who's 339 - > taking what between now and our next call together? 340 - > The thing that is really important is that I I always 341 - > encourage whenever possible, starting these meetings with 342 - > what we call an appreciative anchor. 343 - > And by that I mean uh starting with a positive lens, a positive 344 - > question.

345 - > So, for example, a really easy one. 346 - > What's uh Gwenavir, what's been a win that you've experienced 347 - > this week, personally or professionally or otherwise, 348 - > right? 349 - > Yeah. 350 - > What's something that or that you found meaningful uh in your 351 - > in your work, etc.?

352 - > Uh something you're you you're grateful for, right? 353 - > Any there's a whole battery of questions, and we share some of 354 - > those in our book as resources. 355 - > But the point is when we engage with that at the onset of a 356 - > meeting, it gets us on a trajectory for more generative 357 - > thinking. 358 - > Then if I come and say, Gweniver, tell me about that 359 - > problem that this customer raised last week.

360 - > Our minds, when we start with the deficit mindset, we get 361 - > stuck in this rut. 362 - > And that sets the shade and tone for the rest of that 363 - > conversation. 364 - > SPEAKER_02: So it's a really Yeah, because it just sets 365 - > people's defenses up. 366 - > 100%.

367 - > 100%. 368 - > SPEAKER_01: Right. 369 - > SPEAKER_02: So I love that question about like what is it 370 - > that like was meaningful to you? 371 - > Because that kind of actually starts the thread of 372 - > understanding what they enjoy working on and why, to then 373 - > start leaning towards, oh, like I mean, I again with my HR lens, 374 - > we there's so much we do.

375 - > Like I have people that are in my that work for me, they hate 376 - > payroll, they like and benefits. 377 - > Like if I were to ever to give them a client that they had to 378 - > do that, they probably would leave me, kind of thing, right? 379 - > They need to do that. 380 - > SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there are people who love that, right?

381 - > SPEAKER_02: Exactly. 382 - > And I'm gonna be the one of those, like, if you make me 383 - > recruit every day for all day long, I'm gonna probably like, 384 - > you know, try to, you know, join a nun or something, a nunnery or 385 - > something, right? 386 - > Like so um understanding what people enjoy doing, that's where 387 - > people thrive in. 388 - > It doesn't mean they can't learn and still do other things, but 389 - > having that actually gives the manager the framework of 390 - > understanding where they can help continue growing that 391 - > person and then have that more bigger growth conversation.

392 - > I I wish I had that in my tool belt a while ago when I was 393 - > talking to somebody who's like, I don't know where I want to go. 394 - > I just enjoy what I'm doing. 395 - > But if I had asked them that kind of question, I might have 396 - > actually helped them get there. 397 - > So I love that.

398 - > SPEAKER_01: What one other tool I'll mention that I really am a 399 - > big fan of is what Adam Grant and other uh others out in the 400 - > field talk about is it's the user manual. 401 - > And making this having this explicit exercise where your 402 - > team members can take any number of forms, and again, I've got 403 - > this as part of a resource kit as well, if folks want to grab 404 - > it later. 405 - > Uh, but identifying how do I operate? 406 - > What are my preferences?

407 - > What you know, some teams actually will do like strengths 408 - > finder or other instruments and they'll build that in as part of 409 - > it, but you don't necessarily need those. 410 - > But if I if I say, Gwennavere, you know, I I appreciate closed 411 - > loops in my emails, for example, right? 412 - > When something's done, I appreciate the final email. 413 - > Whereas someone else, the next person might say, you know, 414 - > don't don't hit my inbox, you know, slack me or text me, or 415 - > don't bother me after such all these things that we tend to 416 - > find out by trial and error, and then we like, oh, that wasn't 417 - > the right move, or oh, why are they upset?

418 - > Or how are you, you know, sometimes like one of the direct 419 - > I do community theater for for hobby, one of my directors, he 420 - > just says, you know, I just he says, I just have RBF. 421 - > My face is always just, you know, I my my demeanor, my 422 - > emotions. 423 - > I look like I'm angry. 424 - > I'm not.

425 - > That's just the way I am. 426 - > So just know that. 427 - > And just naming that as an as sort of a humorous example, 428 - > right? 429 - > Because when he's giving notes to the cast, we're like, that's 430 - > just that's just Zach being Zach, right?

431 - > We kind of know that. 432 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah. 433 - > There's a tool out there that um you said, I don't know, they 434 - > still do, they have this best of self where uh a new hires come 435 - > in, they fill out this little form, managers already kind of 436 - > filled it out about them, and it gets shared between the two, and 437 - > it helps kind of start that first like getting to know you. 438 - > It's almost like an icebreaker, right?

439 - > Absolutely. 440 - > How and one of the questions I love is how do you like to be 441 - > celebrated? 442 - > Because not everybody likes to be celebrated the same way. 443 - > Like not everybody wants to be public, like publicly 444 - > celebrated, that especially if they're shy or an introvert.

445 - > Um, others might want to be like, hey, can you just stack it 446 - > up and then give me a nice raise at the end of the year? 447 - > You know, right? 448 - > Um, but understanding how people celebrate so that you can 449 - > actually be that manager leader who hits that in the right way 450 - > and really learning the person. 451 - > I think that's one thing pandemic has done for us.

452 - > And you know, I know we're many years past it, but it flipped 453 - > that script of all employees having to basically adjust who 454 - > they are and how they work to the manager. 455 - > It's now flipped the manager has to adjust to each individual and 456 - > how they work. 457 - > Um, and I it's harder on the manager, but I think it's so 458 - > much more impactful and it makes it a better culture uh and a 459 - > better place to work as long as the manager is doing that work.

460 - > So, question for you, because I know one-on-ones, it does 461 - > sometimes turn into performance, sometimes it doesn't, but what's 462 - > the biggest mistake managers make during a one-on-one that 463 - > you hear about? 464 - > SPEAKER_01: There's so many, obviously. 465 - > I I think I think quite simply it's uh it probably boils down 466 - > to overthinking, like not being present in the moment, really 467 - > being there in the moment, meeting the person where they're 468 - > at, when you ask a question genuinely wanting to know the 469 - > answer, right?

470 - > We we go through these uh one of my colleagues, uh she she her 471 - > her specialty is the art of questions, right? 472 - > And so we go through these performative questions that we 473 - > really don't care what the answer is. 474 - > We're just sort of along with it. 475 - > SPEAKER_02: She's just like mark marking it off the checkbook, 476 - > checkbox.

477 - > SPEAKER_01: And so I think really taking a genuine interest 478 - > in tell me Guinevere, what what is it that you most enjoy? 479 - > What is it that what's the one thing that's keeping you from 480 - > being able to be success, you know, as as you know, successful 481 - > in this particular area as possible? 482 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 483 - > SPEAKER_01: What is that?

484 - > And inviting that in a genuine way. 485 - > I think that would probably be the top of mind uh thing that I 486 - > see most of the. 487 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, and then that goes back to what we started the 488 - > conversation with, which is that actually builds trust too, 489 - > because you're starting to get to know the person, you show you 490 - > care, right? 491 - > You're not just like you like you said, performative.

492 - > I gotta ask this question, okay. 493 - > I don't care what they say, the next question is da-da-da, 494 - > right? 495 - > Like they're actually hearing what the person's saying, 496 - > they're actually processing it to continue the conversation 497 - > around the answer. 498 - > And I think that's that can be challenging, especially for like 499 - > I'm gonna pick on my engineers, but there are some certain 500 - > personalities where that can be really challenging.

501 - > So um, you know, how should leaders maybe adjust their 502 - > one-on-one approach, especially as the company grows, but or 503 - > their own department grows, let's say from like, you know, 504 - > maybe 20 employees to 200 employees, how does that 505 - > actually like a manager who may only have four employees 506 - > initially now has 10, 15, 40 employees? 507 - > How does that one-on-one approach uh look? 508 - > SPEAKER_01: It obviously needs to be contextual in terms of how 509 - > many folks and things.

510 - > I'm a fan of more frequent smaller duration types of 511 - > meetings versus hey, we're gonna have a quarterly one-on-one here 512 - > and it's big kind of thing, right? 513 - > Um I I think the other piece, you know, tying it to the the 514 - > the comment a moment ago as well, is that the other element 515 - > of psychological safety is if I'm asking for feedback about 516 - > how our relationship was working together. 517 - > So what's Glennver, what's what do you find helpful in our our 518 - > work together?

519 - > What's one thing that I could be doing to be more supportive to 520 - > you? 521 - > And again, being genuinely open to that, that engenders that 522 - > psychological safety and trust. 523 - > Especially if I start to uh receive that and they can see 524 - > that I'm working to act on it or appropriate. 525 - > SPEAKER_02: Exactly.

526 - > Yeah, yeah. 527 - > Well, and then it kind of spreads like wildfire. 528 - > That one employee shares to the rest of the team or to one 529 - > person on the team their experience working with you, and 530 - > then it starts opening up. 531 - > And like I've had that actually happen.

532 - > Um, or I can't meet the HR person, unfortunately, was not 533 - > doing their job effectively. 534 - > And I came in and I about a month or two into I'm like, oh, 535 - > okay, I'm not walking on eggshells, I'm walking around 536 - > trying not to send out moms that have been buried for months and 537 - > years. 538 - > And then one person finally had the nerve to come and ask me 539 - > about something. 540 - > I don't even remember what.

541 - > It was, but that just opened the floodgates. 542 - > And for the next months, I was dealing with employee relations 543 - > issues that were so hidden in the organization because 544 - > everyone was like, You can't go to HR, they're not going to 545 - > support you. 546 - > Um, so building that one try, even though there's no 547 - > psychological safety there when you've got that money. 548 - > But it wasn't but what's interesting was, and I never 549 - > experienced this anywhere else, it wasn't that it wasn't that 550 - > the organization didn't have psychological safety, they 551 - > didn't have psychological safety with the HR department, which is 552 - > where the workplace is.

553 - > SPEAKER_00: That's a common right. 554 - > SPEAKER_02: I know it's like that's where you should 555 - > absolutely have it, but unfortunately. 556 - > Um but it is true, you build it with one person, it's gonna 557 - > spread, and then you can start building it with the person. 558 - > And so that actually impacts the culture, impacts the culture 559 - > within that small group, within the department, maybe within the 560 - > location of where those people are, and so forth.

561 - > So let's talk about culture because I think when I talk 562 - > about it, when I talk to different leaders about it, it 563 - > feels like, oh, it's like, you know, oh that's a buzzword, or 564 - > it's a word that they, you know, think, oh yeah, our value 565 - > statements this or perks are that. 566 - > But how would you define culture? 567 - > SPEAKER_01: Culture is is what you um it shows up in every 568 - > decision you make, every conversation you have. 569 - > And the un uh the frustrating thing for for folks is that you 570 - > don't change culture by setting out to change culture.

571 - > SPEAKER_02: And it's not a flip of the switch, right? 572 - > You can't turn it on and off at night. 573 - > SPEAKER_01: It is a byproduct of all these things we've talked 574 - > about, how we show up in our one-on-ones, how we show up in 575 - > our communications, how we communicate in emails, you know, 576 - > meeting etiquettes, you know, just the way we, you know, 577 - > interact with the other one, passing through hallways, what 578 - > have you. 579 - > Every one of those elements creates a culture.

580 - > And one of the things that's important, especially in newer 581 - > stage startups, to realize is those things uh that you start 582 - > early can calcify pretty quickly, right? 583 - > So it's particularly important to be mindful of those. 584 - > You can do culture resets, but it's not it's it's not affected 585 - > to say, hey, we're gonna change the culture, right? 586 - > What tends to happen is you need to find something that the 587 - > organization cares about that you can get everyone rowing in 588 - > the same direction on uh and create some safe processes to 589 - > build it.

590 - > As a quick example, I had uh one of my marketing clients a number 591 - > of years ago. 592 - > They were an agency that they went through a tough period and 593 - > they were actually they lost their biggest whale client and 594 - > they were facing insolvency. 595 - > They had a few months left of runway and they had already let 596 - > some of their staff go and they're in a tough spot. 597 - > And they made a decision that they had initially like we're 598 - > gonna work on the plan, we're gonna communicate this out, et 599 - > cetera, et cetera.

600 - > And they made the hard decision to intentionally co-create the 601 - > recovery, if you will. 602 - > And so they brought the team together, they said they laid 603 - > out their books in uh in very honest form and said, here's 604 - > where we're at. 605 - > The really important thing is, and this is relates to the 606 - > one-on-ones as well, is the modeling. 607 - > They said we don't have all the answers.

608 - > We need your help, right? 609 - > This is a scary time for all of us, and we just want to name 610 - > this, right? 611 - > We have some ideas, but we want to pressure test these with you. 612 - > And they invited the team to be part of the solution.

613 - > And the beauty of that, when they made themselves vulnerable 614 - > to that, and they were very intentional about how they set 615 - > the conversation stakes for that, yeah, they came up with 616 - > better solutions as a team that the leadership would have never 617 - > envisioned on their own. 618 - > And the team was bought into those, and then they not only 619 - > came out of that, but they're thriving today, right? 620 - > So they they didn't just merely survive that.

621 - > And so the one thing I would leave, folks, it's it's 622 - > liberating uh as leaders to recognize I don't have to have 623 - > all the answers, right? 624 - > SPEAKER_02: I can't, in fact, if you portray yourself as having 625 - > all the answers, it breaks they see through it, they know you 626 - > don't. 627 - > Yeah, yeah. 628 - > Oh my gosh, so crazy.

629 - > I I probably interrupted that other thought. 630 - > But it's curious, what are the key ingredients that 631 - > consistently show up in high performing teams from a culture 632 - > or any other perspective, actually? 633 - > SPEAKER_01: Psychological safety would be one that comes comes to 634 - > the surface, right? 635 - > Yeah, uh, it's important though that you couple that with uh 636 - > high performance expectations again.

637 - > You know, if you just have psychological safety but no 638 - > expectation, right? 639 - > You know, everyone's gonna be comfortable, but you're not 640 - > performing, right? 641 - > So you need to have a standard of excellence. 642 - > Uh, you need to provide appropriate operational 643 - > autonomy, right?

644 - > To the extent that you can let decision making flow down to the 645 - > lowest operational level as feasible, right? 646 - > That's going to help get you out as a founder from trying to make 647 - > all the decisions, gonna build your team, you're gonna come up 648 - > with better solutions and so forth. 649 - > So giving that operational autonomy and having a growth 650 - > mindset, a growth focus, right? 651 - > Perfection isn't the standard.

652 - > We're gonna make mistakes. 653 - > Let's learn from them. 654 - > It's okay to make demonstrating when you made a mistake as a 655 - > leader and bringing that to the table and showing how we're 656 - > gonna learn from that, that sets culture faster than any 657 - > platitude on the wall that you're yeah. 658 - > SPEAKER_02: And I love that, like um, you know, being able to 659 - > share with the team.

660 - > Like I remember there's times where I have the budget and I 661 - > could do it all isolated as the department head, but I actually 662 - > separated out the budget here to my generalist, to my recruiter, 663 - > to my trainer, um, and have them be a part of that conversation. 664 - > I think a lot of leaders miss a key aspect of that engagement, 665 - > which is you're now actually helping those individuals grow 666 - > to become the next leaders, whether they're the next level 667 - > of leaders you need, or eventually then unfortunately 668 - > seeing them go off and do something bigger and better.

669 - > But there's so many times when leaders will hold hoard things 670 - > because that's my job and that's what I that's, but then you're 671 - > not giving your team the capability to grow and learn 672 - > with you hand in hand or, you know, but stepping behind them 673 - > or whatever it is. 674 - > But I think that's so impactful because that actually builds 675 - > trust, but it also builds a lot more. 676 - > Um, what's the word I'm looking for? 677 - > SPEAKER_01: Capacity for one, right?

678 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, that too, yes. 679 - > Awesome. 680 - > And and loyalty, right? 681 - > Someone knows that you're gonna bring them along the journey and 682 - > you're gonna share things and expose them to different things 683 - > of the business or their role or the department so that they can 684 - > eventually take the next leap.

685 - > But it goes back to understanding where they want to 686 - > go, right? 687 - > If that that's not what they want to do, then they're 688 - > probably not gonna fulfill that task the way you need it to be 689 - > fulfilled. 690 - > SPEAKER_00: Indeed. 691 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

692 - > So what um what quick diagnostic can leaders use to assess uh the 693 - > health of their team today? 694 - > SPEAKER_01: So there's any number. 695 - > I've got a free resource on our website that we can leave uh for 696 - > your listeners that is helpful. 697 - > It's a high-performing team.

698 - > Uh I forget the exact name, nomenclature, but we can leave 699 - > the link for you. 700 - > I I'm also happy to share my book resources as well. 701 - > In fact, we're gonna be um if if all goes according to plan here. 702 - > My understanding is uh we'll be creating a Kindle Flash sale of 703 - > June 24th of this summer here.

704 - > And we'll have that'll be like I think you get get the Kindle for 705 - > a buck. 706 - > If you have Spotify, you can get the Audible. 707 - > If you have a subscription, you get that for free if you prefer 708 - > that modality. 709 - > So listeners want to see the resources.

710 - > We built the book. 711 - > Uh, you can read it cover to cover, but we built it, you can 712 - > create your own adventure. 713 - > And so we include a lot of the resources we use with our 714 - > clients and our executives and our founders uh within their 715 - > organizations. 716 - > There's individual exercises, there's team exercises, there's 717 - > organizational frameworks that can be really helpful and 718 - > impactful.

719 - > And I'm happy to share that resource with your listeners. 720 - > SPEAKER_02: I love that. 721 - > Okay, so a tough question as we wrap up. 722 - > As companies scale, what becomes harder?

723 - > Building trust, maintaining culture, or developing leaders? 724 - > SPEAKER_01: I don't think that they are mutually exclusive. 725 - > Nicely played, Patrick. 726 - > And you might think that's a cop out, but I, you know, in all 727 - > seriousness, I I I those are all interrelated pieces.

728 - > And uh I don't think you can have one without the other 729 - > effectively, right? 730 - > In the short term, you might be able to do one or the other, but 731 - > they're if you're not working on all three of those in hand in 732 - > hand, they're they're not going to be effective. 733 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, Patrick, I feel like we could probably talk 734 - > for hours, but I love the conversation because at the end 735 - > of the day, trust creates culture, culture drives the 736 - > performance, and leaders build both one conversation at a time.

737 - > Uh, that's you know, basically the thread I pulled from our 738 - > conversation. 739 - > So thank you so much for joining us for our listeners. 740 - > I hope you got so much out of it. 741 - > And until you listen to our next one, have a wonderful day, week, 742 - > evening, wherever you are in the world.

743 - > Thanks for joining us. 744 - > unknown: Thank you. 745 - > SPEAKER_02: That's a wrap for today's episode of Scaling with 746 - > People. 747 - > If you got value from this conversation, do me a favor, 748 - > share it with someone building something big.

749 - > And hey, I'd love to hear your take. 750 - > Drop a comment, shoot me a message, or start a 751 - > conversation. 752 - > And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss the bold, 753 - > unfiltered strategies we drop every week. 754 - > I'm Gwendolikary, founder and CEO of Guide2HR, where we help 755 - > high growth companies scale smart with people for strategies 756 - > and AI powered systems that don't just keep up, they lead.

757 - > If you're building fast and want your HR to move faster, head to 758 - > guide2hr.com and let's talk. 759 - > And remember, scale isn't just about speed, it's about people. 760 - > Until next time, have a great one.