The Human Edge in an AI World with Nik Froehlich, CEO of Saritasa

SPEAKER_01: Well, I knew that every business would have to embrace technology at one point. You know, industry by industry. The first one that I think was affected the biggest was the travel agency. I mean, they just overnight they were gone.

I mean, before that, you'd have to call a travel agent. That's the only way to get a ticket anywhere, right? SPEAKER_00: I started my career in Drupal ads and at the time it was being two dollars per click and we were delivering multiple leads per week to all the clients. It was so easy.

It was such a game changer. Um, having come from the world of TV media where you know you'd pay$50,000 for a prime time ad and we hope the right people saw that. Welcome everyone to another episode of SAS Stories. Today I'm joined all the way from California by Nick Crowley, president and CEO of Saritassa.

Welcome, Nick. SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you. I'm I'm happy to be here. SPEAKER_00: Now, pivot moment for you in the world of science.

We we had a conversation before we hit the record button. You ran a successful construction business for over 20 years before Saritassa. What was the moment you realized technology, not concrete, was where you needed to be? SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.

Um I I don't think there was a moment necessarily, but um I used technology in that business because I um I enjoyed technology. And um and through that time I've I I people saw other other people I knew that owned businesses, they saw how I was using technology and they asked me to um help them um or ask me what I was doing and and that kind of thing. And um and um that led me to start to help them um discover what they needed. And because I um I could speak the language, I think, to to to developers, I could I could hire somebody and I could explain to them very clearly of what what was needed, I could bridge that gap.

And um I don't think it was my calling to be in that um in the in the construction business necessarily. It was it was very successful. Um but this was a fascinating um uh switch for me because um the the construction stuff I was doing is more of a commodity and more people entered the market and it was just getting more difficult to remain profitable. And um I I knew that technology was always going to uh um well, I knew that every business would have to embrace technology at one point, you know, industry by industry.

The first one that I think was affected, the biggest was the travel agency. I mean, they just overnight they were gone. I mean, before that, you'd have to call a travel agent. That's the only way to get a ticket anywhere, right?

So I knew that the demand would grow. So every business, retail eventually would have to utilize technology, number one. Number two, I also know that technology would constantly be changing. So it wouldn't be very easy for these business owners, which are really focused on their business.

Um, it would be difficult for them to keep up. Um and and and they would have to hire uh people or consultants um to help them navigate, you know, the these new technologies, like when the iPhone came out, there this the you know, this retail business is not gonna um hire developers um to build them an iPhone app, right? So so now we have um we have a growing market, everybody's gonna have to use it. Number two, um, it's constantly gonna be changing, so the barrier of entry is a little higher.

You have to have experts. And um and um also that um that there it took a special skill to understand what you wanted from technology or the efficiencies or whatever it is, and being able to speak to developers in a way that they understood. And I knew that I had all three of those, my 20 years' experience of um working as a business and sales and and administrative and processes, I really understood the needs, and because of my passion for technology, I could speak the language and um said and and I saw the demand, so I just started doing that, and um, it turned out to be very fruitful.

There's a lot of demand. SPEAKER_00: So for sure. SPEAKER_01: Yeah. SPEAKER_00: If there's one thing that's uh certain in this world, it's change.

And I think there's been so much change, especially with technology, especially in the world of SaaS, and definitely in recent years as well. Um, but you started this consulting firm back in 2004 before there was a big SaaS boom. So when you were speaking to clients back then, what did you have to convince them of then versus now? What were the fundamental differences?

SPEAKER_01: Well, you're right. There was very little SaaS. Um, it wasn't out there. Um, you you you you basically you still had to buy um off the shelf uh products.

Um, you know, even QuickBooks, your accounting. I'm not even sure if they had it back then, but it was a downloadable, right? It wasn't even QuickBooks Online. Um now accounting software, that's pretty easy because it's almost the same for everybody.

But um there there weren't products just for um uh that were specialized for every um business workflow. And um and so most of the people that came to us initially said, well, you know, we want to optimize this, or you know, we're doing this repetitively, or we'd like to store our data that we can look it up and get rid of the filing cabinet. Very simple things initially. Um, so it was all custom.

And um, and it was the early days of software development where it really started to spring up, where there were more developers, and you could start doing that. You could you could start writing custom software. More languages came out that made it easier to write um um software. So um yeah, the early days was is all custom stuff.

There really was no SaaS alternative or or maybe there were in you know, enterprise or, you know, I'm sure that you know SAP was out and different ERPs, but those work for large corporations. SPEAKER_00: Yeah. It's so it's so different in the world we live in now, which is AI, and you know, a lot of players are kind of coming into it and thinking they can probably do their own custom code. How are you finding um the clients that you speak to now?

Is there a completely different need? Are they uh um doing you know, doing it themselves with AI, or are they still very much needing help with with custom codes? SPEAKER_01: Well, AI is very new and the jury's out really where um you know the where it's going to land exactly. I do see people experimenting a little bit, um, but it's it's it's not ready for prime time for our customers types that really don't know how to architect something.

I mean, the the AI coding stuff has to be used by um really smart people to create a commercially viable product. I mean, you could you could spin something up that maybe works, but that's not going to be commercially viable, scalable, uh maintainable, uh that type of thing. So um I don't see a I I I I I see interest of people thinking that um, you know. So you know, the question we've been dealing with for the past, I guess, uh, 10 years mostly.

Um, post iPhone. I mean, there was that the the mobile app thing was was kind of crazy when that came out because that was new. We were very early to the game. That's not a SaaS product, that's always a custom build.

And but but you know, that you know, people still build those. Um but um, you know, we dealt a lot with the uh, you know, build it custom or um use a SaaS product. And we still get that a lot. You know, they come to us and and and you know, which which do we do?

Uh the AI, um it's still pieced together. I don't think I don't think nobody's no, I I I I I can't imagine somebody replacing a SaaS product that does, you know, a whole CRM and all that by vibe coding something. That's gonna um I mean even with our development teams, we can't do that without I mean, you can have a little bit of productivity increases. Maybe documentation would be easier, maybe some QA would be easier, but I mean that's nobody's not today anyway.

They're not gonna create their own business processes. Um so I think I think today it's still um, is there a SaaS product that fits our needs? Um, what are the pros and cons? Or do we build something um tailored to us that takes advantage of our competitive advantage over somebody else?

And does that make more sense? SPEAKER_02: Yeah. SPEAKER_01: Um and then so that that's from that's from the person using the product on building a SaaS product and building a business around a SaaS product where you're the owner, that's a whole different story with with its own pros and cons. I can speak to you know either one of those, but they're two different, completely two different um sides.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure. Um, I I agree. I I don't think AI is quite there yet, especially if you're working in the world of B2E, providing custom solutions to, you know, really niche products. Um, let's just say, for example, clients that I work with will create like a simulation SAS around the world of mining, underground mining, where they kind of go in and figure out, you know, how profitable is this project going to be.

Um it really does require the expertise, the industry experience, you know, all of that. And yes, AI can help uh with productivity, but I just don't see you know someone without that experience doing that. I think the other issue would be security, right? ISO.

I don't think you know your average coder using AI would know um the nuances of keeping data secured as another example. Um coming back to growth mechanics for the business. So you've you've been in uh sorry tussle for a long time now. And I think in the early days, there was definitely a need for that custom code.

But as time went by, you probably found yourself having a lot more competitors um over time. So I'm curious, you've grown offices in multiple US cities. What led to that expansion? Was it market led?

Was it client-led? Was it sales led? What was your scaling strategy that really helped you take off in business? SPEAKER_01: Um prior to COVID, um, we had an office in Newport Beach, uh, California.

And um every single deal we did, every single client would come into our office. We had one, two, three, four um conference rooms where clients would come in. We spent money on a really nice office so they could see that you know, we're not we're not a small little um uh shop where, you know, we wanted to appeal to the right size customer for us. Um and um everybody wanted their developer to be local.

That was a requirement. I couldn't, I couldn't get a deal. I mean, even even as far as Los Angeles, which is a 45-minute drive north or San Diego, you know, we tried to attract clients um from that, and that was just too difficult. It's too far away, right?

Um so uh we did want to grow, and we um prior to COVID, we said, okay, let's use the same model, everything, and let's pick a big place, let's go to New York. So we um I took uh you know my best sales rep, my best uh uh tech engineer or the um sales engineer, um, project manager, and uh we got an office out there. Uh, I think we started with five people, and the customers again, they would come to the office. Um and it we we were building that business.

It was it was going pretty well, so we were just modeling after that. Um, and we actually opened one in Chicago. Um we a smaller, just a couple people, but same model. So we said, okay, this is how we're gonna grow.

Well, um, COVID changed things a lot, and we all learned very quickly how to use video. My sales reps hated it. I mean, they just like, I can't sell over this, right? And we had to create rules, and I mean, it was early days, right?

And um, but something happened. Um the it opened up a market for us because I can meet with a CEO of a company, a mid-sized company, and he's sitting in his ranch, you know, with his deer antler um thing and his gun back there and his thing, and and he's at home talking, and we can have our team on there, and it didn't matter. It all of a sudden it just opened the door for us. And um we didn't need to keep all those offices, those physical locations open.

And uh a few of our employees, they they wanted to relocate, you know, someplace where uh they could afford things a little easier. And um, so I think that's what did it. It it um it it turned out to be good for us. And then in addition to that, I think in 21 and 22, there was a um um a surge in in um demand for software, custom software.

And I think covet drove that too, because they had to facilitate people working from home on the computer and and having all this. I mean, they had to do something. So we saw a big surge in in modernization during 2001 and 22 and 22. So I think those things all combined it.

Um so I'd like to say that it was something else, but that's kind of what did it be. SPEAKER_00: Just uh good time in the market, I suppose. I I too remember those days. They were good for software, everyone was going online.

It was so normal to be on Zoom calls, team calls, webinars. Um I do feel like we're a little bit exhausted from that at the moment, though. Do you find that human interaction and in-person events and maybe coming to an office for a client is becoming a bit more valuable again? SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm seeing it more and more.

We we have two offices now. Um, our original one in Newport, we've downsized, it's not as big anymore. And we have one in Tampa, Florida, where we have um people that come into the office. Um anybody, most of our most, most of everybody that works for our company has been here 10 plus years, or at least most of the people.

Um, and some of them enjoy coming into the office. They don't want to work at home. They have kids at home. I mean, they're they're just regulars there.

They would like everybody to come in because they want more activity there. But there's others that have been with me a long time and you know, they're just as productive at home and they prefer that. They don't want to come in. Um, but we're noticing now that um customers are coming in more often now.

They they're making an effort, they come into the office. So that's why we have those offices. Um, and you know, they'll they'll fly out now. You know, we'll have a customer that wants to see us, they want to see our operation.

So it's yeah, we're seeing more of that. SPEAKER_00: Yeah. And so from a marketing standpoint, it it sounds like there was obviously a lot of demand and you were just easy to be found by a lot of these customers, or perhaps it was sales led where a lot of salespeople were calling up the right people at the right time. Are you finding uh things like NCO perhaps worked well?

Like you were ranking up high when people were searching for you. And have you noticed that change with now people using uh they call answer engine optimization as in using AI to find businesses? Has that changed anything? SPEAKER_01: Well, there um it is it is changing.

Um we we relied primarily on on search, um, um SEO and and paid surge. And in the early days it was much easier. There was less competition. Um it's it's it's expensive now, it's difficult for you know to make that work.

There's a lot of competitors. Um we are um um working hard on figuring out you know how you know when when you ask grok or uh chat GTP, you know, to find us a developer that does this, that that we show up, you know, and there's there's you know, our marketing department spends time doing that. Uh they really haven't rolled out or we haven't seen it yet, or not mass rolled out, advertising on those platforms yet. I know they're doing it.

I'm starting to do it. Um, and I I think that's the way it's gonna go. Um, but again, that's so we track everything that's coming in, and I see a lot more leads coming in through that. But um, as far as you know, our our our Google search strategy is is is very evolved, it's very sophisticated.

We spend a lot on it. Um, and this is new territory on how to track and stuff. Every, you know, they're rewriting the rules a little bit, and and they're going to continue to do so. So I'm I'm not sure.

It's it's a great question. I mean, you charted waters a little bit with with with all this stuff, it's it's uncharted. SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we all are. We all are.

It's really fascinating for me. I started my career in Google Ads, and at the time being$2 per click, and we were delivering multiple leads per week to all the clients. It was so easy, it was such a game changer. Um, having come from the world of TV media where you know you pay$50,000 for a prime time ad, and we hope the right people saw that.

So um it was it was yeah, much different, right? So different, but now we've actually for ourselves, we've turned off Google Ads because we don't see any value in it. You're paying$50 per click now, and you're still getting people at the awareness stage. And so a lot of the people that we speak to and our clients speak to, they are actually coming from AI, um, and as well as SEO.

I think it's very difficult to make paid search work in in this day and age, which is a shame. But again, constant change. We just need to evolve with the times. SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we sure do.

Yeah. So yeah, we're we're definitely um um experimenting with those changes, even how we our content on our on our website, we're writing it differently to appeal to um not the search engine optimization as much, but we're appealing to the uh LLMs that are searching, you know, anticipating, you know, how people type in the question and stuff and and and really we're trying to appeal to those LLMs so they so we're the most, I don't know, relevant. It's a form of SEO in a way, but again, different rules.

We don't know what the rules are. SPEAKER_00: Yeah. Well uh there's a lot of experts that claim needs to you, but I think it's just trying there at this stage. unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: What's exciting me about it is that in the world of startups, so SaaS startups, when they would typically come into the market, they they would have to do something like need search because it was very hard to rank up high, you know, when you're competing with all the giants that have been around for 20, 30, 40 years. But now with AI, there is actually ways, because I do see it in when I start ChatGPT or Perplexity or Claw, they do actually recommend startups and other businesses.

So it's it's really interesting. I think it's really opening up a world for smaller businesses and the startups to compete better. SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree.

I'd like to um I'd like to um uh figure out that that that that the magic juice there to do it. Like I like I said, we we do a lot, right? So I we depend on on a lot of volume, but maybe maybe, yeah. So we're transitioning, but you know, maybe we don't need as much volume because it's uh the the search is so much more uh specific and directed, right?

Yeah, because we still get paid leads. I wish I could get them for 50 bucks uh flick, but you know, they'll call us up and they say, Oh, um, I need help restarting my Android phone. It's like, how the heck did you, you know, did you beat our pad even? Did you even look?

I mean, it Of lot of junk. SPEAKER_00: Yeah. Yeah. It's a shame.

I I would love to figure it out too. Um, permission to do so. So yeah, let's keep chatting once we do. SPEAKER_02: Sure.

Yeah. SPEAKER_00: Um the hardest problem you've solved for a client. So without naming names, or you Johnny, if you'd love to, but walk us through the most complex challenge a client brought you and how you approached it. SPEAKER_01: The most complex.

Um you know, we we had this uh this uh client and they're uh there they were a um a division of a of a a large international company, but but this particular CEO uh owned the California territory, um local here in in um Southern California. And um, you know, their business processes, they they sold um um big um big equipment that was custom built for projects that had this this whole workflow of estimating and um sourcing together parts and uh and then estimating that and then and then delivery and but they were all um they were they were still emailing spreadsheets with tabs on each department that would copy it over.

And it was very frustrating for him because he wouldn't he he wouldn't know how much money they made on a project until a month afterwards because you know you estimate it. Oh, and the sales reps would just copy and paste, you know, their old proposal where you know the they didn't update the prices um because they were lazy. And then the uh the engineer would um actually source the bit, uh the parts and stuff. And when it was done, they had to, you know, put all that in a spreadsheet and figure it out.

And he wanted more real time. So um we spent a considerable amount of time at their location um with each department, going through and trying to understand their business um exactly how it flowed. Um, and he was hands-on. He'd come to our office twice a week and spend two or three hours with us flowcharting and and working through screens and and um bringing his team over there and you know, trying to get consensus of how they're gonna make this major switch over.

And we had to integrate with um their the corporate entity that had you know all the parts and and all this and their ERP systems and stuff. But um we were successful with that. That was that was great. It it was it was really good and transformed his his company.

Um in fact, they it was so successful that the other um divisions across the US they saw that and they wanted to to use it. And uh, but corporate didn't like that. Um so because they they liked Salesforce. Yeah.

And um, and ours was ours was designed from the ground up to do exactly what they wanted to do. And you know, Salesforce, they're they have great um salespeople and everything. They said, yeah, we can customize anything, and um, I mean, so much more. I mean, all he had to do is pay us the maintenance costs and he could add things anytime.

Oh, we need this feature, and you know, it was simple to do, but uh, you know, they they they weren't enterprise and they weren't gonna deal with a company like us, and they did two um Six Sigmas. I that's a that's a I'm not familiar with the Six Sigma process, it's a management process of making a decision of this stuff, and both times I I think you have to graduate business school or something to understand what that is, but it's a Sigma, six Six Sigma. I've never heard of that either.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I've had a lot of a lot of my clients have said, I feel like I need a PhD to use sales force, it's not very intuitive. SPEAKER_01: So we um we we both times it came out that we should be using um the Serratada stuff, you know, the the thing that we built, but you know, eventually corporate just said no, they signed a huge you know license agreement with Salesforce and hired the people and they rolled it out everywhere. And um, but it was very successful.

They bought out the guy that built this one if they had a right to do that, so they just took it over. So that was challenging. It was um I say hard, um challenging all stakeholders and everything, but it was very successful. And but in the end, Salesforce uh he ran it for about four years and very successfully, and then you know, they just scrapped it and went with Salesforce.

So yeah, we're very proud of it though. SPEAKER_00: For sure. It's it's uh it's an interesting origin to that story, it's very relatable because I've usually when we when I speak to clients, one of our questions is well, who are your competitors? And most of the time they will say Excel.

And um, I'm like, okay, so they're not using other software, they're literally using a spreadsheet to you know keep all the data, make sense of it. SPEAKER_01: Um another one is access, Microsoft Access. A lot of people built their databases on that, and they're all like, okay, okay, we we've reached the limit on this, you know. How can we add this functionality?

I said, look, it we don't, you know, work on access, we're not gonna build on this. You you have a choice. I mean, you're gonna have to, you know, you to modernize, you're gonna have to use a modern technologies and platform to do something, or you know, find a find a SaaS product that that does, you know, what you want it to do, you know, that makes financial sense. SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And most of our clients, they do compare us to, I mean, they're and some of some deals we lose. They they say, no, we decided to go with off the shelf, which means a SaaS product. That's what they say. Um or they or they're afraid of um I I guess they're they're afraid of being changed beholden, beholden to a SaaS product that um so some for some people there's a control issue, right?

The data, the the costs, the feature availability if they want something. SPEAKER_00: Um and um and even just learning something new, they just don't want to. So I think some of the issues are with change management and just trying to get lots of people to commit to one software where they're like, oh no, no, we just want to do it how we've always done it, even though it's yeah, it's terrible. SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Well, you have to do that either with SaaS or a custom build because it is change for for anybody. But I think with the with the custom build, often if you do it right, you can you can make the users the stakeholders because they're building it. So there's that sense of ownership a little bit. Um so again, I think it's different for every company and size of company that you can't build custom software if you're you know have a small budget, if you're um a$10 million company.

I mean, that's it's gonna cost you you you gotta start somewhere. And and and you know, SaaS products are great for that. I mean, you can get in pretty um quickly and inexpensively to see if it fits your workflow and you can grow from that either. Um and who knows, you know, a lot of these SaaS products are starting to incorporate AI um in that.

And it'll be interesting to see how how flexible that is if it if if it allows um licensees of SaaS products to adapt the product more easily than depending on the release schedule. Oh, yeah, we're gonna do that next year sometime, you know, as opposed to I I don't know if that's gonna be possible, but that that's interesting. SPEAKER_00: Yeah. SPEAKER_01: I think I think SAS, I think people that own SaaS products um certainly have to be looking at how they're gonna incorporate AI into it.

I mean 100% for some of my customers that have SaaS products, um, their customers are saying, Well, do you use AI in your SaaS product? It's like, what? Say yes, we'll we'll we'll do a checkbox. SPEAKER_00: You know, it's almost like um, yeah, I think you have to adapt or die.

I think a lot of the software I use, they now have and they and they have from the beginning started to use AI within them. And it's um it's something I use a lot now. So it's I think you know, if I was to go to a competitor that didn't have that, it would be it would be so different. Um, yeah, it would yeah, and it's very much needed.

I think the most impressive one I saw at in the early days was when I went to do an online course, and um, instead of giving you those generic questions as a quiz at the end of the course, they actually tailored it to who you were based on what they knew about you, like company, job title, all of that, which I thought was really good. So they created a really personalized experience with learning. SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So another one of our customers that we built it 11 years we've uh we've been working. We start it, it was a startup actually, and we built it on um I can say the name of it. It's it's sports thread, it's a youth, a youth sports um uh SaaS product that um helps organizers with youth sports verify age ID and registration and and games and uh you know the the gains, ticket sales for parents that go there and all this, all this stuff. Um a great product.

Um they're doing fine, it works great. Um, but we were able to add an AI component to it because um all youth sports kind of start at the same time, uh, you know, the season, and um their customer service was just inundated with um um, you know, the parents that are trying to, you know, what was my login, just just simple use things. And um, because they had so much data over the 11 years of of what these they they they actually documented all this stuff, which is great in the answers.

So that was good. So we had all this data, and it helped so much because they didn't have to, uh they weren't overburdened. The the AI agent, and we built an agent to it that could actually um uh not only talk to them but immediately reset their password or do this kind of stuff where we didn't need the agent in there. So that that really helped them.

I think they told us it was like an 83% improvement on on or what they were able to do. Um, so that that's a that's an example of um you know uh adding AI to a to a SaaS product for one of our clients that we built it for. SPEAKER_00: So is a very good example, a relatable one as well. Like my kids play soccer.

So at the start of the year, we're all trying to register on probably a similar platform, like the Australian equivalent, and it was having all sorts of issues. Unfortunately, there was no AI built into it, so we just had to wait it out. SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah. SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately.

Um coming back to people and culture at Saritassa, I'm curious what's your approach to hiring and retaining great talent? SPEAKER_01: So um uh we we um we prefer to, well, first of all, promote internally. Um and even for like our project management um staff, we we prefer to hire people that are smart and eager and green, um, that and and teach them as opposed to bringing somebody in that has all this experience in project management and everything, because we have found that did that doesn't work for us that well.

Um we're we're fighting them as opposed to uh so I I think what we're looking for is just really bright, relatable, relatable. You know, we we have the right uh uh criteria for like project managers. They they need to be able to speak professionally and articulate what they're saying, right? And and and be smart and understand um, you know, what you know how to multitask uh project management is, you know, there's a lot going on there, right?

And um, so we we we hire um we we like to hire juniors and mentor them up. Um we find out pretty quickly, either they like it um and then they stay on and then they can grow within the company. And we've been very successful with that. Or we find out or they find out very quickly that it's not for them.

So we didn't waste too much time with that and not too much money either. And it gives them when you hire somebody junior, it gives them a um a kind of a quicker career path. They can see their incomes go go up pretty quickly, right? To the to the level of, okay, wow, you're you're really good.

And so we can, you know, it could go up very quickly for them. So that has worked. Like I said, most of our people um have been here for a long time. SPEAKER_00: I love that you said that because uh we do exactly the same thing, but we didn't always do it that way.

So we recently changed our hiring strategy. I think it was since COVID, actually. Um we would very much focus on hiring specialists in the field. So if you specialize in an area, fantastic.

Come and work for us. Um and you're right, we we did find that those people could sometimes be really close-minded. They kind of had their set ways of doing things and they wouldn't adjust it to the way we were used to doing things. And it was, you know, a bit of back and forth.

It probably caused a little bit of friction and it delayed things getting done. We then started hiring juniors and mentoring them, and we created a bit of an academy program like this is what the next five years of your career could look like, which they really loved because you know they could see a future. And what we found was that young people were just such quick learners, they were really fast at doing things. I forgot how fast young people could do things, they were faster than me.

Um, and it was just incredible to watch. And yeah, they've been amazing. And um, when you do give them a career part and a potential future, they do stick around. They're quite happy to stay.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah. So for our, so we also do that for our our development um our engineers, and we have offices in in um one, two, three, four offices overseas in in different countries. And um, they're all employees of ours and um part of our structure. But what we started doing, because uh, you know, hiring these skilled senior engineers, same problem.

They wanted to do it our way, you know, and and or they wanted to do it their way no matter what. A lot of friction. So what we started doing is running camps. We'd go to the local universities to job fairs, and we would um we'd have different camps, summer camp, uh, winter camp for specialties for either mobile development or VR or maybe it's PHP or Python, whatever it is.

And um, they would have to come in and they'd have to apply and um um qualify to become into this class. Um and I I think I don't remember exactly because I don't run those, but we'd only like five percent of them we would allow, and then we'd have about 25 people, and the senior people would run these camps and and you know, have them program and everything, and um, and then maybe one or two would get a job offer. And it was a constant stream of new talent that we could get and and really good talent, and um and it it worked out better because these these juniors um they they grew up so they they got so much better with their mentors and everything that they become very valuable very quickly.

So yeah, we do that across the board. And I'm we've we've hired like a director position for our creative department, and that that was just it's it's it's like, what are you doing? I mean, this is not the way we do things here, right? We hired you for your expertise, but there's so much tension, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's so clever, actually. Just creating a program, and then you you hire all the best talent. Um, it also it's so meaningful, you know, you're training people in something, and then you give them a job at the end of it. I think it just gives you much more meaning and purpose and just feels like you're doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah. And I think the loyalty is is is um we get more loyalty that way. You hire a senior and maybe they don't quite like it, and you know they're worth this much, and then they can go online and maybe go someplace else. There, there's no skin in the game with the junior.

I mean, they they work so hard to get this job and then they're gonna get raises faster. I mean, they're they're they're they're they feel lucky they can be here. They got the job at Google, you know. We're not Google, but I mean, but you know, in some of these uh places we have it.

I mean, we're you know, we have a reputation that we're you know, you want to work for Saratasa. So I think buys loyalty. SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Hey, it's hard to get that in this day and age, I believe. SPEAKER_01: Sure is, right. And we don't uh anybody that we hire, um, it's a requirement to come into the office. I mean, we won't hire somebody new outside of our office locations because they they need to we need to see them, we need to be on them.

I I would feel very uncomfortable hiring somebody remote if I don't know their work ethic or anything. Um tenured people, we already know. We know their outcomes. It's no problem.

SPEAKER_00: For sure. Um Nick, my last question for you it's a tradition on this podcast, one that I ask every person is if you could go back in time to any age and give yourself one bit of advice, what would that be? SPEAKER_01: It worries me a little bit because what if I did that and then I wouldn't be here? It's like the butterfly effect, right?

Because I'm I'm I'm I'm happy, you know. I mean you know, I have a wife and four children and I'm successful and I gotta be careful. What advice would I give? SPEAKER_00: Well, you might not even follow it if you gave it to yourself back then.

SPEAKER_01: Um, I think um I think paying a little bit more maybe paying a little bit more attention to academics. I was I was that I got C's in high school and dropped out of college and I really didn't um yeah, I uh, you know, I'm the I'm the football jock and the homecoming king and drinking on the weekends, and I didn't I didn't know school was important. And I think I could have learned, I was in the very beginning of internet. Um I mean just in the very beginning.

I have some, you know, friends that were really into it. And you know, I I would have it would have definitely been a different track for me. But at the same time, I'm gonna tell you, I I really like the ignorance a little bit because I, you know, I I leave the development stuff to the to it's so hard to answer that question because um yeah, even if you had followed that academic route, you're successful now, and you probably had way more fun in high school than most people. Yeah, I did, and so that gave me the skills to be sociable because I I'm on the I'm on the business um driver end of this.

Yeah, I'm on the very personable side of things. That's why I'm on this podcast, and my CTO is not, or the other people are not, because they're so much smarter than me in so many ways. Um, but you know, it it taught me some of the nuances of of socialization and and even um yeah, I um I'll have to think about that some more. I I I I I I don't I don't have I don't have big regrets, so I I don't know what that would be.

Um I guess I'm just a optimist, and you know, when things go a little bit wrong, it happens for a reason. Um, like this whole AI thing. I don't know, you know, I don't I don't know the answer. No, many people don't know the answer.

You know, for a company like mine, you know, you hear all the time that, you know, that software developers are gonna become obsolete and you know, you're not gonna need that encoding. And, you know, I'm I can see that that's wrong. Again, there's people are gonna need people. Um, I think when you go to a restaurant, I don't think you are gonna be one of served by an Optimus robot.

I think there's something about that waiter. Waitress that makes that experience so great. And same with consulting. And I need to figure out, but what I would have told myself, um.

It's a good question. Maybe I should have been prepared for that. SPEAKER_00: One to think about. I will.

SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I'll think about it. SPEAKER_00: You did raise a really good point. SPEAKER_01: I'll shoot you an email as a follow-up. I'll just let you know this popped into my head.

SPEAKER_00: I'll add it in the show notes. SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good. SPEAKER_00: But you've raised a really good point. I mean, you you mentioned how smart the people around you were, and I bet they did well at school.

But one of the most important things in growing a business is the people skills. And so yeah, I think that's going to become increasingly more important as AI takes over. And you're right, I don't I don't want a robot serving me. I'm not sure what to speak to a hero.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't mind the robot um cleaning the house. I don't mind. SPEAKER_00: That's all right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: That's okay. Yeah. But I'm sure my dog wants me to walk it and not the robot. SPEAKER_00: I don't think we should outsource that one.

I love walking my dogs. SPEAKER_01: I don't think we should outsource that one either. Well, maybe it's a good analogy on the code, too. I think the code, I mean, what I see now, code making, I mean, it just uh there's it's it's just not the same yet.

So we'll see. SPEAKER_00: No, no, but you're right. We we don't know what's gonna happen. And um, I we just need to remain it is good.

SPEAKER_01: I mean, do you need the change? I wish I could see a little bit. I knew with the mobile that was coming because I was an Apple guy, and and we we we changed some of our PHP and had them learn uh uh X code right away. And before the iPhone, uh before the app store even opened, I said, build a couple apps.

I want to submit them because I know I'm gonna get a phone call. They're gonna say, have you ever built an app before? It's like, how could we? They just opened.

But my answer was yes, we did. And I had the experience. So some of those things you could see coming and how big they will be, but um, I don't have the clear vision yet. SPEAKER_00: All right.

All we can do is remain optimistic and agile. SPEAKER_01: Yes. And technology will always be there, and everybody will need to use technology and it will accelerate at an even greater pace, and we're gonna need smart people that could connect businesses with technology and the translators in between to make it work. And that was my opening thing, is why I created this.

So I think those tenets still hold true. SPEAKER_00: Yeah. I think we're still gonna need people in every industry, regardless of uh the way technology is evolving. SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for being on the show. Pleasure to have you. Some really good insights there, and it was so wonderful to hear your story. SPEAKER_01: All right.

Well, thank you very much. It was fun.