The 7 pillars of trust every leader can build

1 00:00:00,080 - > 00:00:01,919 SPEAKER_00: Welcome everyone to another episode of Santa 2 00:00:02,080 - > 00:00:02,640 Stories. 3 00:00:02,799 - > 00:00:06,639 I am joined by Jerome Loden, previously Against Under 4 00:00:06,799 - > 00:00:11,119 Podcast, and joins us today with his new book, Before It Breaks, 5 00:00:11,199 - > 00:00:14,960 which is all about trust, the seven pillars of trust every 6 00:00:14,960 - > 00:00:16,000 leader must build. 7 00:00:16,079 - > 00:00:17,760 And such a timely book as well. 8 00:00:17,920 - > 00:00:19,039 Welcome, Jerome. 9 00:00:19,760 - > 00:00:22,079 SPEAKER_01: I am so excited to be with you again this year, 10 00:00:22,160 - > 00:00:22,719 Jonas. 11 00:00:22,800 - > 00:00:25,039 And I'm really excited about being with you today just to 12 00:00:25,039 - > 00:00:28,800 talk about the book and trust, but also just uh to be able to 13 00:00:28,800 - > 00:00:31,679 connect with your viewers, people that are, you know, who 14 00:00:31,839 - > 00:00:35,840 are tuning in just to share about leadership too. 15 00:00:36,320 - > 00:00:36,960 SPEAKER_00: Absolutely. 16 00:00:37,119 - > 00:00:40,000 And so, in your experience coaching leaders across 17 00:00:40,000 - > 00:00:43,759 education and of course, sands, which is what this podcast is 18 00:00:43,759 - > 00:00:49,200 all about, how often do leaders um realize trust is broken after 19 00:00:49,200 - > 00:00:49,920 the fact? 20 00:00:50,079 - > 00:00:53,520 And what are the early warning signs they should be watching 21 00:00:53,520 - > 00:00:53,840 for? 22 00:00:54,240 - > 00:00:54,960 SPEAKER_01: Oh, goodness. 23 00:00:55,119 - > 00:00:58,079 That is something I think we all, not just in um, I'm an 24 00:00:58,079 - > 00:01:01,600 educator by trade, I'm coaching a SaaS uh founder right now, and 25 00:01:01,600 - > 00:01:02,880 other people in other fields. 26 00:01:03,119 - > 00:01:05,680 And trust is something that we have common in all 27 00:01:05,680 - > 00:01:06,319 organizations. 28 00:01:06,480 - > 00:01:10,560 And when everything is high with for high levels of trust, things 29 00:01:10,560 - > 00:01:10,879 flow. 30 00:01:10,959 - > 00:01:13,760 You're able to make decisions, you can feel the synergy. 31 00:01:14,000 - > 00:01:16,239 I think we've all probably worked it sometime in an 32 00:01:16,239 - > 00:01:19,200 organization where trust was low, or maybe you didn't trust 33 00:01:19,200 - > 00:01:20,719 the leader, didn't trust your team. 34 00:01:20,879 - > 00:01:22,959 And you know, there's signs around you. 35 00:01:23,120 - > 00:01:26,079 But one thing I've learned in coaching people is often people 36 00:01:26,079 - > 00:01:28,879 perceive trust being broken as something big, like there's a 37 00:01:28,879 - > 00:01:29,680 big event. 38 00:01:29,920 - > 00:01:33,120 And often, like if some employees have a flare up, get 39 00:01:33,120 - > 00:01:36,400 into it, the the leader wants to deal with it right there, but 40 00:01:36,400 - > 00:01:39,359 they don't realize that the problem is not the problem. 41 00:01:39,760 - > 00:01:43,200 What typically happens is it's something that's been building 42 00:01:43,200 - > 00:01:43,519 over time. 43 00:01:43,680 - > 00:01:46,239 So you have to go back and look what has been happening. 44 00:01:46,400 - > 00:01:49,680 And often it's going to be people start out with good 45 00:01:49,680 - > 00:01:53,040 intentions and then they they feel threatened, or maybe they 46 00:01:53,040 - > 00:01:55,280 feel like someone's not giving them the right amount of 47 00:01:55,280 - > 00:01:58,480 information, or just simply some things happen and you have 48 00:01:58,480 - > 00:02:01,599 tension, and instead of addressing it, you let it build. 49 00:02:01,840 - > 00:02:05,359 So I think most people could say, if you look around, uh, do 50 00:02:05,359 - > 00:02:07,840 you do you feel like you have good communication? 51 00:02:08,080 - > 00:02:10,560 When you have communication, do you have clarity? 52 00:02:11,120 - > 00:02:14,000 Uh are people having the difficult conversations that 53 00:02:14,000 - > 00:02:15,599 they need to address the issues? 54 00:02:15,840 - > 00:02:19,439 You know, uh, I've been in organizations before where the 55 00:02:19,439 - > 00:02:23,759 managers are potentially uh have very competent employees, but 56 00:02:23,759 - > 00:02:27,039 they're not team players, they you you can't trust them. 57 00:02:27,199 - > 00:02:30,879 And instead of dealing with them and trying to coach them around 58 00:02:30,879 - > 00:02:34,159 being a team player, being someone who shares, they don't 59 00:02:34,159 - > 00:02:36,639 have the courage to because they're afraid this person has a 60 00:02:36,639 - > 00:02:37,120 skills. 61 00:02:37,199 - > 00:02:40,319 Well, if I try to deal with it, they may quit, they may leave, 62 00:02:40,400 - > 00:02:41,919 and I've got a void on the team. 63 00:02:42,080 - > 00:02:44,960 But in essence, that really hurts the rest of the team. 64 00:02:45,120 - > 00:02:48,080 You know, pre-modonnas get in the way of all kinds of things, 65 00:02:48,159 - > 00:02:51,439 they can show up late, they can miss deadlines, but because they 66 00:02:51,439 - > 00:02:53,599 have a skill set, they're able to do things, and others are 67 00:02:53,599 - > 00:02:56,000 looking at them like, why are you treating this person a 68 00:02:56,000 - > 00:02:56,560 certain way? 69 00:02:57,439 - > 00:03:00,240 And I, you know, even though I'm an educator, I see that more 70 00:03:00,479 - > 00:03:03,599 business people where it's like they feel held hostage because 71 00:03:03,599 - > 00:03:06,639 there's certain skills you need, and people are so hard to find 72 00:03:06,800 - > 00:03:09,919 once you have someone, they're often afraid to coach them. 73 00:03:10,879 - > 00:03:11,199 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 74 00:03:11,360 - > 00:03:14,400 And on the topic of skills, you've written about the seven 75 00:03:14,400 - > 00:03:14,800 pillars. 76 00:03:14,960 - > 00:03:17,759 I think you may have just mentioned one or two, but walk 77 00:03:17,759 - > 00:03:21,599 us through the high level of what these seven pillars are. 78 00:03:22,319 - > 00:03:24,879 SPEAKER_01: Oh, and and I'm gonna say this there's a lot of 79 00:03:24,879 - > 00:03:28,000 research around trust, so you'll see some of the common trends. 80 00:03:28,240 - > 00:03:31,039 The biggest difference in my book is trying to operationalize 81 00:03:31,039 - > 00:03:33,039 trust is something that you just don't take for granted. 82 00:03:33,199 - > 00:03:35,759 No, it's higher and low, but you actually are able to put a 83 00:03:35,759 - > 00:03:36,639 system around. 84 00:03:36,800 - > 00:03:39,680 But the foundation of everything that I talk about says that 85 00:03:39,680 - > 00:03:41,120 you've got to have character. 86 00:03:41,360 - > 00:03:44,719 And when I'm talking about character, you know, you want a 87 00:03:44,719 - > 00:03:48,080 team where everyone doesn't have to be like you, but you want to 88 00:03:48,159 - > 00:03:50,719 though people have the value system that's consistent, you 89 00:03:50,719 - > 00:03:53,599 understand their system, you know that they have ethics and 90 00:03:53,599 - > 00:03:53,919 values. 91 00:03:54,159 - > 00:03:56,719 They may not be perfectly aligned because of their 92 00:03:56,719 - > 00:03:59,759 religious beliefs or ethnic background or whatever, but at 93 00:03:59,759 - > 00:04:02,240 least you know you can figure out what they stand for and 94 00:04:02,240 - > 00:04:03,280 they're consistent with it. 95 00:04:03,439 - > 00:04:07,039 And that leads into the second pillar of just being consistent. 96 00:04:07,360 - > 00:04:10,479 Uh, when I talk to people or talk to groups and I ask have 97 00:04:10,560 - > 00:04:12,560 you ever had a boss or someone around you that you didn't know 98 00:04:12,560 - > 00:04:14,719 what day of the week it was, you have to check in before you 99 00:04:14,719 - > 00:04:17,120 wanted to have a meeting with them or conversation, they all 100 00:04:17,120 - > 00:04:18,079 laugh in head nod. 101 00:04:18,480 - > 00:04:21,360 You know, okay, do I need to talk to them today or do they 102 00:04:21,439 - > 00:04:22,399 need to talk to them today? 103 00:04:22,480 - > 00:04:24,480 No, they're in a bad mood, wait till tomorrow. 104 00:04:25,600 - > 00:04:26,560 Oh, that happens. 105 00:04:26,720 - > 00:04:27,759 That happens so much. 106 00:04:27,920 - > 00:04:31,680 And you know, when you have people that are consistent and 107 00:04:31,680 - > 00:04:34,480 you know how to read them, I don't have to grive everything 108 00:04:34,480 - > 00:04:37,360 they do, but if I just know I can predict what they're gonna 109 00:04:37,360 - > 00:04:40,079 say, what they're gonna do, and understand what they like, then 110 00:04:40,079 - > 00:04:42,800 I can adjust because you know I want to support the leaders that 111 00:04:42,800 - > 00:04:43,040 I have. 112 00:04:43,199 - > 00:04:46,079 With me, I have seven bosses in the board, and I want to I had 113 00:04:46,079 - > 00:04:48,560 to figure out what they like and and don't like and make sure 114 00:04:48,560 - > 00:04:50,959 they have the right amount of communication, not too much or 115 00:04:50,959 - > 00:04:51,759 not enough. 116 00:04:52,000 - > 00:04:55,279 And one thing on the operational side that I put in that's a 117 00:04:55,279 - > 00:04:58,319 little different about consistency, because most things 118 00:04:58,319 - > 00:05:01,199 about trust are going to talk about consistency, like I just 119 00:05:01,199 - > 00:05:04,639 said, but also it would be putting systems in place that 120 00:05:04,639 - > 00:05:05,519 are consistent. 121 00:05:05,759 - > 00:05:09,199 So you have quality inputs and outputs between your teams. 122 00:05:09,279 - > 00:05:12,480 You have sharing, you don't have one team, like a SAS team. 123 00:05:12,560 - > 00:05:14,480 One group's doing this, one group's doing that, the 124 00:05:14,480 - > 00:05:17,120 marketing people share with the software development people, the 125 00:05:17,120 - > 00:05:19,040 people running the betas. 126 00:05:19,199 - > 00:05:22,079 Uh, you make sure that you have consistency so all the people 127 00:05:22,079 - > 00:05:23,680 have what they need when they need it. 128 00:05:23,920 - > 00:05:26,560 You want to know that you're consistent enough that just any 129 00:05:26,560 - > 00:05:29,920 person in that on that team could basically make things flow 130 00:05:29,920 - > 00:05:30,480 and operate. 131 00:05:30,560 - > 00:05:33,519 That you don't have to be a hero with a special skill set to just 132 00:05:33,519 - > 00:05:35,279 make the day-to-day things run. 133 00:05:35,759 - > 00:05:39,279 Uh, communication, and something I did with the book is I 134 00:05:39,279 - > 00:05:41,519 separated communication from clarity. 135 00:05:42,079 - > 00:05:44,639 Communication is so important because you've got to have a 136 00:05:44,639 - > 00:05:46,959 variety of ways of communicating, you've got to 137 00:05:46,959 - > 00:05:49,199 make sure you listen to your people and understand how they 138 00:05:49,199 - > 00:05:50,959 like to be communicated with. 139 00:05:51,519 - > 00:05:54,560 But then a pillar later on that I'll share now is clarity 140 00:05:54,879 - > 00:05:56,560 because you've got to be clear. 141 00:05:56,720 - > 00:05:59,839 Just saying you communicate does not mean people understand. 142 00:06:00,000 - > 00:06:03,519 And if you don't have clarity, then you'll have rovers flying 143 00:06:03,519 - > 00:06:04,639 faster than the truth. 144 00:06:04,720 - > 00:06:08,399 And and if you're silent, you know, or don't communicate 145 00:06:08,399 - > 00:06:11,040 properly, the rumors are going to tell the story, and you won't 146 00:06:11,040 - > 00:06:14,160 have an opportunity to tell the story in a timely manner. 147 00:06:14,480 - > 00:06:16,399 And then just being competent. 148 00:06:16,639 - > 00:06:19,759 And that goes back into you know, you've got to know your 149 00:06:19,759 - > 00:06:20,000 stuff. 150 00:06:20,079 - > 00:06:22,240 Your employees have to know the stuff, they have to be good at 151 00:06:22,240 - > 00:06:22,800 what they do. 152 00:06:23,040 - > 00:06:26,480 And as a leader, like when you're developing people, part 153 00:06:26,480 - > 00:06:29,759 of the trust factor is you may not have the perfect employees, 154 00:06:29,839 - > 00:06:32,000 like you're not the perfect leader, but you have a growth 155 00:06:32,000 - > 00:06:34,720 mindset, you're learning, you understand where you're weak, 156 00:06:34,800 - > 00:06:37,519 and you show up your weaknesses by having people around you that 157 00:06:37,519 - > 00:06:38,160 are strong. 158 00:06:38,319 - > 00:06:41,519 And when you move someone into a new role, you understand you've 159 00:06:41,519 - > 00:06:43,680 got to develop them, you've got to spend time with them. 160 00:06:43,920 - > 00:06:47,839 Because I have seen this so many times where you've got a great 161 00:06:47,839 - > 00:06:50,720 salesperson, they're your best salesperson, you promote them to 162 00:06:50,720 - > 00:06:52,639 the head of sales, and they fail. 163 00:06:52,720 - > 00:06:55,040 And then they end up resigning and going and doing something 164 00:06:55,040 - > 00:06:57,680 else, or you take a nurse that's your best nurse, you put them as 165 00:06:57,680 - > 00:07:00,319 a charge nurse, but you don't train them, you don't lift them 166 00:07:00,319 - > 00:07:02,959 up, and then they're getting frustrated and quitting, or 167 00:07:03,120 - > 00:07:06,160 worse than that, you may have to remove them because they're not 168 00:07:06,160 - > 00:07:06,959 good at leading. 169 00:07:07,120 - > 00:07:10,399 So the competence factor is so important, and that goes back to 170 00:07:10,399 - > 00:07:12,879 your systems too, just having systems in place people can 171 00:07:12,879 - > 00:07:14,480 trust and can predict. 172 00:07:14,879 - > 00:07:16,720 And then care is very, very important. 173 00:07:16,800 - > 00:07:20,000 And I know care is a soft skill that people talk a lot about, 174 00:07:20,399 - > 00:07:23,040 but being in an environment where you feel like you're more 175 00:07:23,040 - > 00:07:26,800 than just a number that your leadership cares about you. 176 00:07:27,040 - > 00:07:30,000 And one way that I tweak care that's a little differently is 177 00:07:30,079 - > 00:07:33,600 like in my organization, people hear me just say, we want to 178 00:07:33,600 - > 00:07:36,160 have a brisk business-like environment where we know our 179 00:07:36,160 - > 00:07:40,399 goals, we know our jobs, we do them well, but also the care in 180 00:07:40,399 - > 00:07:43,600 the system where we set it up, where like Joni, you're gonna be 181 00:07:43,600 - > 00:07:46,240 productive, you're gonna have what you need, but also you're 182 00:07:46,240 - > 00:07:48,560 gonna have enough time to breathe and catch your breath 183 00:07:48,639 - > 00:07:50,639 and be able to think about am I making a difference? 184 00:07:50,800 - > 00:07:51,920 Am I working with my team? 185 00:07:52,079 - > 00:07:53,199 Am I supporting my team? 186 00:07:53,360 - > 00:07:54,560 Am I checking in on them? 187 00:07:54,720 - > 00:07:57,759 And I'm also do I have enough time to cast the vision for the 188 00:07:57,759 - > 00:07:58,160 future. 189 00:07:58,399 - > 00:08:01,600 Because if your head's always down in the world, it's as fast 190 00:08:01,600 - > 00:08:04,079 as we're in moving now, you're not gonna be able to stay up 191 00:08:04,160 - > 00:08:07,040 because you got to have time to think and be creative too. 192 00:08:08,079 - > 00:08:10,480 And and if you know, if you're in that kind of environment 193 00:08:10,480 - > 00:08:13,600 where you like the team, you like your boss, you feel like 194 00:08:13,600 - > 00:08:16,240 you're supported, you know you've got time to really 195 00:08:16,240 - > 00:08:19,439 decompress, or maybe at times there's in the care is knowing 196 00:08:19,439 - > 00:08:21,439 that people like different things, so you can give them 197 00:08:21,439 - > 00:08:23,759 enrichment opportunities if they want to try new things. 198 00:08:23,839 - > 00:08:26,079 Like if someone wants to be a leader, you can give them little 199 00:08:26,079 - > 00:08:29,120 roles along the way to stretch them before they're a leader. 200 00:08:29,360 - > 00:08:31,279 And then the clarity part I've already mentioned. 201 00:08:31,360 - > 00:08:33,200 And then the last thing is probably the foundation. 202 00:08:33,279 - > 00:08:35,759 You have the character at the beginning and at the end, the 203 00:08:35,759 - > 00:08:36,399 courage. 204 00:08:36,639 - > 00:08:39,759 Because it takes courage to have difficult conversations, and 205 00:08:39,759 - > 00:08:42,559 often people will probably the biggest thing I see with courage 206 00:08:42,559 - > 00:08:45,120 is people will think it'll work out, you know, take care of 207 00:08:45,120 - > 00:08:46,639 itself, and then it doesn't. 208 00:08:47,039 - > 00:08:50,799 And being able just to say, I want to sit down and talk with 209 00:08:50,799 - > 00:08:51,120 you. 210 00:08:51,600 - > 00:08:54,720 And I have several tools in the book that I think people enjoy. 211 00:08:54,799 - > 00:08:57,600 You know, I've marketed the book as not a motivational book, but 212 00:08:57,600 - > 00:09:02,559 it's really an OS for uh trust, so you can actually manage trust 213 00:09:02,559 - > 00:09:03,600 and not just let it go. 214 00:09:03,679 - > 00:09:05,840 Because if you're in an environment like if I move into 215 00:09:05,840 - > 00:09:08,720 a new system and there's high levels of trust, if I don't 216 00:09:08,720 - > 00:09:10,000 manage it, it can erode. 217 00:09:10,159 - > 00:09:13,679 Or if I'm in an environment where I'm a turnaround agent and 218 00:09:13,679 - > 00:09:16,159 there's no trust, then I've got to start somewhere working on 219 00:09:16,159 - > 00:09:17,600 the pillars to build trust. 220 00:09:17,919 - > 00:09:20,639 So I think there's some opportunities there for people. 221 00:09:20,879 - > 00:09:21,120 Yeah. 222 00:09:21,279 - > 00:09:23,679 Uh but courage, courage is a big one. 223 00:09:25,600 - > 00:09:26,399 SPEAKER_00: I love that. 224 00:09:26,480 - > 00:09:29,200 Uh they all start with a C and they're very easy to remember. 225 00:09:29,279 - > 00:09:33,039 So I'm gonna say them once again character, consistency, 226 00:09:33,440 - > 00:09:38,080 communication, competence, care, clarity, and courage. 227 00:09:38,320 - > 00:09:41,039 Um, the competence one stuck out at me. 228 00:09:41,120 - > 00:09:44,320 Um when you were saying, you know, people get put into roles, 229 00:09:44,399 - > 00:09:46,720 but they don't get the training and education for it. 230 00:09:46,960 - > 00:09:51,279 It made me think of MEI and the way a lot of organizations are 231 00:09:51,279 - > 00:09:53,279 currently um rolling it out. 232 00:09:53,360 - > 00:09:56,080 They're saying everyone should be using it, everyone needs to 233 00:09:56,080 - > 00:09:59,279 learn it, but there's no education program, there's no 234 00:09:59,279 - > 00:10:02,240 training, there's no systems, there's no processes. 235 00:10:02,320 - > 00:10:04,320 It's just like go out and learn it. 236 00:10:04,559 - > 00:10:08,240 Um, are you finding this quite common as well at the moment? 237 00:10:08,960 - > 00:10:11,039 SPEAKER_01: You know, something I have been predicting because 238 00:10:11,039 - > 00:10:13,679 we have actually paid SaaS professionals to come in and 239 00:10:13,679 - > 00:10:17,120 that work with designing systems for organizations to come in and 240 00:10:17,120 - > 00:10:18,000 train our team. 241 00:10:18,240 - > 00:10:20,720 We started two years ago and just effective prompting. 242 00:10:20,960 - > 00:10:24,159 Then we are leaders on our team and instructional leaders have 243 00:10:24,159 - > 00:10:25,679 been training good prompting. 244 00:10:25,840 - > 00:10:28,879 Now we've been working on connectors for a while and 245 00:10:28,879 - > 00:10:30,799 developing our own projects. 246 00:10:31,120 - > 00:10:34,799 But uh, something I believe is the person, and now there's a 247 00:10:34,799 - > 00:10:35,360 new title. 248 00:10:35,440 - > 00:10:38,799 I cannot remember the title for you, but the the money, in my 249 00:10:38,799 - > 00:10:41,840 opinion, is not going to be OpenAI or Claw, but it's gonna 250 00:10:41,840 - > 00:10:44,159 be the person that can actually take the average person and tie 251 00:10:44,159 - > 00:10:45,759 it all together so you can use it. 252 00:10:46,000 - > 00:10:48,799 And that's like the hottest new job on the market because these 253 00:10:48,799 - > 00:10:51,919 people can take small companies, they can have a full-time job, 254 00:10:52,000 - > 00:10:55,120 or they can work in multiple small companies and make a very, 255 00:10:55,200 - > 00:10:55,919 very good living. 256 00:10:56,159 - > 00:10:58,960 Just being able to connect the dots and have systems in place 257 00:10:58,960 - > 00:11:00,000 that we can use. 258 00:11:00,399 - > 00:11:02,799 Uh, so I think that's going to be big. 259 00:11:03,039 - > 00:11:05,679 AI's come in them, it's here, it's not going away. 260 00:11:05,919 - > 00:11:10,159 I know I I use, gosh, I use so many credits with a clawed 261 00:11:10,159 - > 00:11:12,080 co-work every week, it's unreal. 262 00:11:12,159 - > 00:11:13,840 And it's amazing what it will do. 263 00:11:14,159 - > 00:11:15,679 SPEAKER_00: It's incredible for sure. 264 00:11:15,840 - > 00:11:19,600 I do think though, um, a lot of the a lot of employees are kind 265 00:11:19,600 - > 00:11:22,960 of being left to their own devices in terms of when and how 266 00:11:22,960 - > 00:11:24,240 to learn everything. 267 00:11:24,480 - > 00:11:27,519 Um, and so coming back to the seven pillars, do you find 268 00:11:27,759 - > 00:11:31,360 specifically for SaaS bounders, say scaling from, you know, to 269 00:11:31,360 - > 00:11:36,080 50 people, which one of the pillars tends to get neglected 270 00:11:36,080 - > 00:11:36,320 first? 271 00:11:36,639 - > 00:11:41,200 Which is the one that tends to be the most um out of sorts? 272 00:11:41,759 - > 00:11:44,159 SPEAKER_01: You know, the SaaS people that I'm working with, of 273 00:11:44,159 - > 00:11:46,720 course, you know, the model there is most people they're 274 00:11:46,799 - > 00:11:49,679 they're trying to develop a good software that they can scale. 275 00:11:49,840 - > 00:11:52,639 And the ones that are addicted to being that startup on to 276 00:11:52,720 - > 00:11:55,360 mirror, they want to sell, make a good profit, then they want to 277 00:11:55,360 - > 00:11:56,799 go back and do it again. 278 00:11:57,120 - > 00:12:00,639 And it's almost like you see this transition in the culture 279 00:12:00,960 - > 00:12:05,679 where you have these innovators that are so creative, and then 280 00:12:05,759 - > 00:12:09,039 as you scale, you need the MBA in, you've got to have the CFO, 281 00:12:09,120 - > 00:12:10,799 you got to have the the protocol. 282 00:12:10,960 - > 00:12:13,919 So then that really challenges them because you're having to 283 00:12:13,919 - > 00:12:16,399 put in the HR manual, you're having to do the things that 284 00:12:16,399 - > 00:12:19,919 maybe they don't like, and that's where bringing the 285 00:12:19,919 - > 00:12:23,200 culture up to speed and designing your culture, like a 286 00:12:23,440 - > 00:12:24,879 person I'm working with now. 287 00:12:25,039 - > 00:12:27,759 We've worked on an onboarding guide, and he you know, he's in 288 00:12:27,759 - > 00:12:31,279 this on his second company that he started up or helped start 289 00:12:31,279 - > 00:12:35,039 up, and they're trying to scale, buy another company, bring 290 00:12:35,039 - > 00:12:35,440 people in. 291 00:12:35,600 - > 00:12:38,159 And the big thing I keep working with them on is this the 292 00:12:38,159 - > 00:12:38,480 culture. 293 00:12:38,720 - > 00:12:44,240 You have this great culture, but are you developing the people as 294 00:12:44,240 - > 00:12:46,960 they come in so they're they're acclimating to your system? 295 00:12:47,039 - > 00:12:50,480 And also as he scales his ability, making sure he's able 296 00:12:50,480 - > 00:12:53,039 to leave things along that he had to do when he was a startup, 297 00:12:53,360 - > 00:12:57,440 because he now he can be more of a CEO type person, COO person. 298 00:12:57,840 - > 00:13:01,360 And uh, I don't care how much money you make, how fast you 299 00:13:01,360 - > 00:13:04,799 grow, your culture is what sustains your organization. 300 00:13:05,039 - > 00:13:08,320 And and the culture that you have, you can't take it for 301 00:13:08,320 - > 00:13:08,639 granted. 302 00:13:08,799 - > 00:13:11,840 That's why you have like the trust indicators, they're all 303 00:13:11,840 - > 00:13:12,720 about culture. 304 00:13:12,960 - > 00:13:15,679 You know, there's research more and minutes, you know, culture, 305 00:13:15,759 - > 00:13:17,120 each strategy every day. 306 00:13:17,279 - > 00:13:20,080 And you can have slogans and you can have a company to come in 307 00:13:20,080 - > 00:13:22,639 and pay them big bucks to have a banner, and this is what you're 308 00:13:22,639 - > 00:13:22,879 about. 309 00:13:22,960 - > 00:13:25,120 But then is that really what you're about? 310 00:13:25,279 - > 00:13:28,240 And you'll see with teams like talking about the competence and 311 00:13:28,240 - > 00:13:31,120 the consistency, you want to have that between your teams 312 00:13:31,200 - > 00:13:32,960 because if you're not careful when you have multiple 313 00:13:32,960 - > 00:13:36,000 departments, each one has their own little mini culture, and 314 00:13:36,000 - > 00:13:38,080 even though you want them to be free to have their own 315 00:13:38,080 - > 00:13:40,320 creativity, you want to know at the end of the day they all 316 00:13:40,320 - > 00:13:42,399 support the organization's culture too. 317 00:13:42,639 - > 00:13:43,440 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah. 318 00:13:43,600 - > 00:13:46,879 SPEAKER_01: No, I think you deal with SaaS people all day long, 319 00:13:46,960 - > 00:13:50,399 and I love SaaS people because they're so creative, but the 320 00:13:50,399 - > 00:13:52,240 that culture piece is so important. 321 00:13:53,360 - > 00:13:54,000 SPEAKER_00: I agree. 322 00:13:54,080 - > 00:13:58,080 I think culture is it goes a long way, and it's a very hard 323 00:13:58,080 - > 00:13:58,960 one to define. 324 00:13:59,120 - > 00:14:02,159 Like if you ask anyone what is the culture like at your 325 00:14:02,159 - > 00:14:05,039 organization, um, they can't answer that question. 326 00:14:05,200 - > 00:14:06,720 And I've been thinking on that as well. 327 00:14:06,879 - > 00:14:08,000 What makes a good culture? 328 00:14:08,080 - > 00:14:10,320 And I the word trust does come to mind. 329 00:14:10,559 - > 00:14:14,559 So, you know, I think diversity is important in a culture, and I 330 00:14:14,559 - > 00:14:17,600 think the culture is defined by the employees, not the leader, 331 00:14:17,679 - > 00:14:18,240 as well. 332 00:14:18,480 - > 00:14:22,720 Um, trust is a big one, but what else would you say to that 333 00:14:22,720 - > 00:14:23,039 question? 334 00:14:23,200 - > 00:14:24,320 Is it answerable? 335 00:14:25,120 - > 00:14:28,159 SPEAKER_01: Well, just when you look at a system, when you're at 336 00:14:28,159 - > 00:14:31,279 equilibrium and everything's aligned, you know, in a 337 00:14:31,440 - > 00:14:33,519 especially a creative environment, like I'm in the 338 00:14:33,519 - > 00:14:37,360 education field or SaaS field, that's where you can get so 339 00:14:37,360 - > 00:14:40,559 busy, the next thing you know, it's like midnight and you're 340 00:14:40,559 - > 00:14:44,320 like full of energy and you're you're fulfilled. 341 00:14:44,559 - > 00:14:47,600 But then if you're not in that zone, just like you can have a 342 00:14:47,600 - > 00:14:50,480 Saturday where you're doing nothing but scrolling, you're in 343 00:14:50,480 - > 00:14:51,360 that lower brain. 344 00:14:51,519 - > 00:14:53,919 At the end of the day, you're like, I am tired and haven't 345 00:14:53,919 - > 00:14:54,720 done anything today. 346 00:14:55,919 - > 00:14:58,960 So a healthy culture, you know, people are willing to go the 347 00:14:58,960 - > 00:14:59,519 extra mile. 348 00:14:59,600 - > 00:15:01,440 It doesn't matter if you have unions or not. 349 00:15:01,600 - > 00:15:03,679 You know, if you need to stay over a few minutes and finish 350 00:15:03,679 - > 00:15:05,600 something, you don't mind it because you know if you need to 351 00:15:05,600 - > 00:15:08,480 leave a little earlier, boss is gonna be flexible with you. 352 00:15:08,639 - > 00:15:13,600 And and two, I advocate there's some people that love money, but 353 00:15:13,600 - > 00:15:17,120 in most situations in your area, you're gonna have some similar 354 00:15:17,120 - > 00:15:17,519 pays. 355 00:15:17,600 - > 00:15:21,919 Some people may pay more, but if I love my supervisor and I love 356 00:15:21,919 - > 00:15:25,519 my team and we have synergy, when someone new comes on, we 357 00:15:25,519 - > 00:15:28,720 look at that as an opportunity to learn and we're gonna embrace 358 00:15:28,720 - > 00:15:29,039 them. 359 00:15:29,279 - > 00:15:32,240 I mean, most people are around people like that more than they 360 00:15:32,240 - > 00:15:32,960 are their spouse. 361 00:15:33,039 - > 00:15:35,919 If you think about it, you get a shower, you go to bed, and 362 00:15:36,080 - > 00:15:39,120 you're busy, you have quality time with your friends at work 363 00:15:39,120 - > 00:15:41,039 at times more than you do your own kids. 364 00:15:41,200 - > 00:15:43,519 So you want to be in that environment, and when you're in 365 00:15:43,519 - > 00:15:45,759 that kind of environment, it would really take a lot of money 366 00:15:45,759 - > 00:15:46,639 to make you laid. 367 00:15:47,200 - > 00:15:48,480 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely. 368 00:15:48,639 - > 00:15:50,000 I think balance is important. 369 00:15:50,240 - > 00:15:53,120 It's coming back to CEOs, which you mentioned earlier. 370 00:15:53,279 - > 00:15:56,720 I did some research before the podcast on trust, and the 371 00:15:56,720 - > 00:15:59,600 Edelman Trust Barometer specifically came up. 372 00:15:59,919 - > 00:16:04,720 So it found that 75% of people think CEOs should be bridging 373 00:16:04,720 - > 00:16:08,799 trust gaps, but only 44% actually do it well. 374 00:16:09,279 - > 00:16:10,480 Does that surprise you? 375 00:16:10,559 - > 00:16:12,720 And what do you think is driving that? 376 00:16:14,240 - > 00:16:17,120 SPEAKER_01: I think at times some of the things you'll see is 377 00:16:17,200 - > 00:16:20,480 like with a leader, at times they don't have the flowing 378 00:16:20,639 - > 00:16:22,320 communication like they need. 379 00:16:22,559 - > 00:16:26,320 And people that are just on the floor of wherever, they're all 380 00:16:26,320 - > 00:16:29,279 very valuable, but they may think, well, they already know 381 00:16:29,279 - > 00:16:29,440 that. 382 00:16:29,600 - > 00:16:31,360 So you've got blind spots. 383 00:16:31,840 - > 00:16:35,679 Uh at times the ego, you've accomplished, you know, you get 384 00:16:35,679 - > 00:16:39,200 so focused on numbers, you're making the numbers, and you just 385 00:16:39,200 - > 00:16:40,799 assume the culture's good. 386 00:16:40,879 - > 00:16:43,600 And or you may have people around you that are telling you 387 00:16:43,600 - > 00:16:46,000 the culture's good, but it's not. 388 00:16:46,159 - > 00:16:48,720 And that's one thing about the diversity aspects with 389 00:16:48,720 - > 00:16:49,120 character. 390 00:16:49,840 - > 00:16:52,879 You know, we don't have as many organizations now, but you know, 391 00:16:53,120 - > 00:16:55,440 years ago it seemed like people would hire people just like 392 00:16:55,440 - > 00:16:58,799 them, maybe like the country club or the good boys, good old 393 00:16:58,799 - > 00:16:59,759 boys club. 394 00:16:59,919 - > 00:17:02,720 Now you're seeing people value diversity more. 395 00:17:02,960 - > 00:17:05,440 Like when we're hiring, you don't have to be the same faith 396 00:17:05,519 - > 00:17:08,480 or of faith or uh same background as me. 397 00:17:08,559 - > 00:17:12,000 I want people to have different views, and we are gonna focus on 398 00:17:12,000 - > 00:17:12,720 what's in common. 399 00:17:12,799 - > 00:17:15,200 We're not gonna fight about what's different, but if if I 400 00:17:15,200 - > 00:17:18,079 have people that see from a different lens, that helps me. 401 00:17:18,319 - > 00:17:20,559 So sometimes the ego gets in the way. 402 00:17:20,720 - > 00:17:23,359 You know, the research that's out there says, like, just 403 00:17:23,359 - > 00:17:26,319 literally like 85-9% of the people are gonna say they're 404 00:17:26,319 - > 00:17:29,599 self-aware, but in reality, only about 5% are self-aware. 405 00:17:29,759 - > 00:17:32,640 And that's the biggest gift you can have as a leader is knowing 406 00:17:32,640 - > 00:17:34,640 your weaknesses, knowing your strengths. 407 00:17:34,960 - > 00:17:38,799 And when I coach people, I'll ask them this at times have you 408 00:17:38,799 - > 00:17:41,759 ever had a leader that has just said, absolutely, that did not 409 00:17:41,759 - > 00:17:42,000 work. 410 00:17:42,079 - > 00:17:44,480 I made a mistake, and here's what I'm gonna do in the future. 411 00:17:44,720 - > 00:17:49,759 Most people are like, Oh, I I coach my people, look, find to 412 00:17:49,759 - > 00:17:51,759 us when you make mistakes and be vulnerable. 413 00:17:51,920 - > 00:17:56,799 Say, look, I made the decision, I owned the decision, we thought 414 00:17:56,799 - > 00:17:57,200 it worked. 415 00:17:57,359 - > 00:18:00,480 Here's what we did, it did not work, and here's what we're 416 00:18:00,480 - > 00:18:01,359 gonna do in the future. 417 00:18:01,599 - > 00:18:04,799 That can actually give you more credibility and trust because 418 00:18:04,799 - > 00:18:09,200 people realize the leader made a mistake and he admitted it, and 419 00:18:09,200 - > 00:18:12,000 also that empowers others to not be afraid to make mistakes 420 00:18:12,160 - > 00:18:13,279 because you want people to try. 421 00:18:13,359 - > 00:18:15,680 I mean, very few people make a critical mistake. 422 00:18:15,759 - > 00:18:18,160 You know, if you're still in or something like that, that's 423 00:18:18,319 - > 00:18:19,680 that's more than a mistake. 424 00:18:19,920 - > 00:18:23,759 But you want people not afraid to try and to be creative and to 425 00:18:23,759 - > 00:18:26,960 also not hold back and tell you how they feel or what they see. 426 00:18:27,200 - > 00:18:30,160 And you know, you have a lot of employees, and some are gonna 427 00:18:30,160 - > 00:18:31,200 hit you with things you don't like. 428 00:18:31,359 - > 00:18:34,240 It's okay, just digest it and look for patterns and trends. 429 00:18:34,319 - > 00:18:36,079 And that's where the truth usually is. 430 00:18:37,359 - > 00:18:40,480 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's um it's an it's an interesting one 431 00:18:40,559 - > 00:18:43,440 because I think the higher up the ladder you go, especially as 432 00:18:43,440 - > 00:18:48,079 a CEO, you probably speak to less and less people at the 433 00:18:48,079 - > 00:18:48,640 bottom. 434 00:18:48,960 - > 00:18:52,480 You're probably just speaking to like the the leaders just below 435 00:18:52,480 - > 00:18:52,640 you. 436 00:18:52,799 - > 00:18:55,519 And so I don't know if you're getting the full picture. 437 00:18:55,759 - > 00:18:58,960 Um, and they're probably giving you information that's not 100% 438 00:18:59,279 - > 00:18:59,759 accurate. 439 00:18:59,920 - > 00:19:03,440 So how do what do you think the CEOs can do in that instance? 440 00:19:03,599 - > 00:19:07,519 Like I agree, I think admitting mistakes and being relatable is 441 00:19:07,519 - > 00:19:08,079 very important. 442 00:19:08,240 - > 00:19:12,240 Do you also find that it's important to stay close to all 443 00:19:12,240 - > 00:19:14,319 the departments in a business? 444 00:19:14,960 - > 00:19:17,279 SPEAKER_01: You know, I have 1,300 employees. 445 00:19:17,440 - > 00:19:20,000 There are a lot of people a lot larger than me in my 446 00:19:20,000 - > 00:19:23,920 organization, but the biggest resource I have is my cabinet. 447 00:19:24,000 - > 00:19:27,440 You have about nine people that I rely on, that I coach. 448 00:19:27,599 - > 00:19:30,400 I try to make sure they understand the philosophy. 449 00:19:30,640 - > 00:19:34,079 Uh, we have the quality circles, which you know, different 450 00:19:34,079 - > 00:19:36,480 organizations have different things, but we basically run a 451 00:19:36,480 - > 00:19:38,240 mini version of a sprint. 452 00:19:38,640 - > 00:19:44,160 Uh, whoever has the influence or the authority or the expertise 453 00:19:44,319 - > 00:19:46,640 is the one who has total command of the project out there. 454 00:19:46,720 - > 00:19:47,599 That's the portal. 455 00:19:47,759 - > 00:19:50,799 We try to do a lot of act after action reviews. 456 00:19:50,960 - > 00:19:54,400 Uh we actually divide and counter, uh divide and conquer 457 00:19:54,400 - > 00:19:57,359 in our organization and make sure that every two to three 458 00:19:57,359 - > 00:19:59,440 weeks we've got a couple people that meet with the different 459 00:19:59,440 - > 00:20:02,400 teams and just check in how they do and what's what's working, 460 00:20:02,480 - > 00:20:03,279 what's not. 461 00:20:03,519 - > 00:20:05,039 Takes a lot of dedication. 462 00:20:05,200 - > 00:20:07,519 And I'll be the first to say when you're the leader, is 463 00:20:07,599 - > 00:20:09,519 always going to be someone saying, Well, I haven't seen you 464 00:20:09,519 - > 00:20:11,920 in a while, and I'm always saying I need to do better. 465 00:20:12,240 - > 00:20:15,279 But when I compare myself to other organizations, I feel like 466 00:20:15,279 - > 00:20:16,160 we're doing well. 467 00:20:16,319 - > 00:20:19,119 So the more you can be there, the more you can have feedback 468 00:20:19,119 - > 00:20:19,839 loops. 469 00:20:20,000 - > 00:20:24,079 Uh, you know, you can have your you can have your leadership 470 00:20:24,079 - > 00:20:27,039 team or you have just a quality circle where you bring people in 471 00:20:27,039 - > 00:20:28,880 from all the different departments and meet with them 472 00:20:28,880 - > 00:20:31,680 and just get updates from them and be there with them so you 473 00:20:31,680 - > 00:20:34,240 can get fillers out, the more visible you are. 474 00:20:34,720 - > 00:20:37,519 Uh, I'm not a big fan of the surveys because there's some 475 00:20:37,519 - > 00:20:40,079 research on surveys that shows that the people that are happy 476 00:20:40,079 - > 00:20:42,400 or just doing a good job, they don't worry, it's usually on the 477 00:20:42,400 - > 00:20:44,559 extremes and they embellish a lot. 478 00:20:44,640 - > 00:20:47,519 But we do surveys too, try to look at patterns. 479 00:20:47,839 - > 00:20:49,839 But the communication is so important. 480 00:20:50,079 - > 00:20:53,599 And I would say for leaders, just finding the way, ask your 481 00:20:53,599 - > 00:20:55,839 employees how they like to be communicated with. 482 00:20:56,319 - > 00:20:58,799 Because there's so many tools today, and I think at times what 483 00:20:58,799 - > 00:21:02,400 happens is we're sending so many messages out that people just, 484 00:21:02,559 - > 00:21:04,880 well, it's the same, you know, they just don't look at it, they 485 00:21:04,960 - > 00:21:05,920 get hit with so much. 486 00:21:06,079 - > 00:21:09,359 So finding out how they want to be communicated with and 487 00:21:09,599 - > 00:21:10,880 communicate with them. 488 00:21:11,119 - > 00:21:11,759 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 489 00:21:12,319 - > 00:21:14,000 Communication is crucial. 490 00:21:14,240 - > 00:21:17,119 There's um there's another story in the book that really stood 491 00:21:17,119 - > 00:21:18,880 out for me in chapter six, actually. 492 00:21:18,960 - > 00:21:22,640 Um, it was one I could relate to because this was me 20 years 493 00:21:22,640 - > 00:21:23,039 ago. 494 00:21:23,200 - > 00:21:28,480 Um, you tell a story of the CEO who worked 70 hours per week, 495 00:21:28,559 - > 00:21:32,480 um, but he had no idea what his team was doing. 496 00:21:32,799 - > 00:21:36,960 And is this a common story that you you see throughout when 497 00:21:36,960 - > 00:21:38,559 you're working with organizations? 498 00:21:39,279 - > 00:21:42,240 And it's trust that you should here, it's trust in the team 499 00:21:42,240 - > 00:21:43,039 that you should. 500 00:21:43,680 - > 00:21:44,960 SPEAKER_01: And I'll I'll share this. 501 00:21:45,039 - > 00:21:48,480 My wife peeked at me because the stories in the book are real, 502 00:21:48,559 - > 00:21:50,960 and I've changed them all up because of some of the people 503 00:21:50,960 - > 00:21:51,440 I've coached. 504 00:21:51,519 - > 00:21:53,359 And some of them where I'm coaching someone, it's really 505 00:21:53,359 - > 00:21:53,519 me. 506 00:21:53,599 - > 00:21:55,680 And my wife's like, That was you, you did that. 507 00:21:57,519 - > 00:22:01,039 You know, there's times where you don't have the Trust and you 508 00:22:01,039 - > 00:22:05,200 have this perfectionist type, and they're hero, they put all 509 00:22:05,200 - > 00:22:08,720 the hours in, they want to change everything. 510 00:22:08,880 - > 00:22:12,640 They instead of just giving empowering their employees, it's 511 00:22:12,640 - > 00:22:15,599 almost like they're a mini micromanager, and they just they 512 00:22:15,759 - > 00:22:17,279 but they've got to stamp everything. 513 00:22:17,440 - > 00:22:20,799 And you know, I've worked with people like that, I've I've been 514 00:22:20,799 - > 00:22:23,440 around people like that, and I've had friends that work for 515 00:22:23,440 - > 00:22:23,680 people. 516 00:22:23,759 - > 00:22:26,640 And when you talk about the patterns, it's you know it's 517 00:22:26,640 - > 00:22:30,240 like they're really competent, but they're afraid to let go. 518 00:22:30,400 - > 00:22:33,279 They've got to sign everything, check everything, and they don't 519 00:22:33,279 - > 00:22:36,720 realize that's slowing things down, and it's them slowing 520 00:22:36,720 - > 00:22:39,680 things down, and also it stifles creativity. 521 00:22:39,839 - > 00:22:42,799 And your folks that are creative, that like to innovate 522 00:22:42,799 - > 00:22:46,400 and have a little autonomy, they're not gonna stay with you 523 00:22:46,400 - > 00:22:47,680 in that environment. 524 00:22:47,920 - > 00:22:51,920 Uh, and you as a CEO, you're still, you want to, you want to 525 00:22:51,920 - > 00:22:55,119 have, like with me, there's a lot of decisions where I'll give 526 00:22:55,119 - > 00:22:55,920 a few parameters. 527 00:22:56,079 - > 00:22:58,559 Here's what I envision, but I want you to take it and make it 528 00:22:58,559 - > 00:22:59,119 your own. 529 00:22:59,279 - > 00:23:02,160 There's some times where, like during COVID, we just had to 530 00:23:02,160 - > 00:23:04,400 make a decision and say, I need your support. 531 00:23:04,640 - > 00:23:06,720 There's times where I'll just go out, here's a problem. 532 00:23:06,799 - > 00:23:09,839 I want you guys to let me know what it is, and they'll run it 533 00:23:10,000 - > 00:23:10,160 to me. 534 00:23:10,240 - > 00:23:12,640 And you say, I'm gonna support it and ask good questions. 535 00:23:12,799 - > 00:23:16,000 Make sure the thing I love is I can ask the questions, and I'll 536 00:23:16,000 - > 00:23:18,880 know there's no way I would do this, but they know what they're 537 00:23:18,880 - > 00:23:22,000 doing, and they also know what to look for if it's working or 538 00:23:22,000 - > 00:23:23,039 not, and how they adjust. 539 00:23:23,119 - > 00:23:25,279 So I'll run with it, and that helps me to continue learning 540 00:23:25,359 - > 00:23:27,440 because there's so many different ways to do the same 541 00:23:27,440 - > 00:23:28,079 thing. 542 00:23:28,559 - > 00:23:31,200 And and there's times where you just let give the decision 543 00:23:31,200 - > 00:23:32,079 totally away. 544 00:23:33,039 - > 00:23:35,759 But uh, but I think we've all probably worked for a leader. 545 00:23:36,000 - > 00:23:39,680 I think at times, well, I'm not gonna say all the time, but I 546 00:23:39,680 - > 00:23:41,839 think early on it's easy for a new leader. 547 00:23:41,920 - > 00:23:44,720 And I was this way, I you know, you're new, you're thon in, you 548 00:23:44,720 - > 00:23:47,039 don't have a mentor like when I first came out, you didn't have 549 00:23:47,039 - > 00:23:48,240 the coaching like you did today. 550 00:23:48,559 - > 00:23:49,839 Everything's important, you know. 551 00:23:49,920 - > 00:23:52,160 You just you're so afraid you're gonna miss something, and you 552 00:23:52,160 - > 00:23:53,839 feel like you've got to have all the answers. 553 00:23:54,000 - > 00:23:57,119 And as a maturist, I don't have to have the answers. 554 00:23:57,200 - > 00:24:00,079 I've got a great team, I know where to go for the answers, and 555 00:24:00,079 - > 00:24:02,880 then you learn to filter what that 20% is that really gives 556 00:24:02,880 - > 00:24:04,480 you the 80% reward. 557 00:24:04,799 - > 00:24:09,200 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's um yeah, perfectionism, it's an 558 00:24:09,519 - > 00:24:10,079 interesting one. 559 00:24:10,240 - > 00:24:13,440 I think a lot of a lot of them are, a lot of them are 560 00:24:13,440 - > 00:24:16,079 perfectionists, and and that's kind of why they've come such a 561 00:24:16,079 - > 00:24:17,119 long way as well. 562 00:24:17,359 - > 00:24:20,799 But what would be the first step in letting go of that level of 563 00:24:20,799 - > 00:24:24,319 control and micromanagement and starting to trust your team a 564 00:24:24,319 - > 00:24:25,279 little bit more? 565 00:24:26,240 - > 00:24:28,240 SPEAKER_01: You know, this may this is going to connect 566 00:24:28,240 - > 00:24:31,039 slightly with it, but one thing I've had to coach leaders around 567 00:24:31,039 - > 00:24:33,839 is this the ones that when someone wants me to come in and 568 00:24:33,839 - > 00:24:39,039 someone's being promoted, is it's often easy to when you're 569 00:24:39,039 - > 00:24:43,039 just in a your comfort zone is being moved, your boundaries are 570 00:24:43,039 - > 00:24:47,519 being moved, and you're in a new role, but you're supervising 571 00:24:47,519 - > 00:24:50,799 someone that was in that same level you were at, you know that 572 00:24:50,799 - > 00:24:51,039 role. 573 00:24:51,119 - > 00:24:53,200 You were moved because you were really good at that role. 574 00:24:53,279 - > 00:24:56,559 But I did not promote you for the skill set that you had then. 575 00:24:56,640 - > 00:24:59,440 I saw I'm seeing the potential in you to be in a different 576 00:24:59,440 - > 00:25:02,240 role, but often when they get in there, they're nervous, they 577 00:25:02,319 - > 00:25:05,039 start micromanaging the role they had before because they 578 00:25:05,039 - > 00:25:05,680 understand it. 579 00:25:06,000 - > 00:25:08,720 So a lot of early ways to do that is to teach someone when 580 00:25:08,720 - > 00:25:11,759 they're new look, let the new person be creative and let them 581 00:25:11,759 - > 00:25:12,720 make this their own role. 582 00:25:12,880 - > 00:25:17,200 You hold them accountable to the KPIs or the smartest scorecard. 583 00:25:18,079 - > 00:25:21,119 Uh being able to have an accountability partner, because 584 00:25:21,119 - > 00:25:22,240 there's some things, you know. 585 00:25:22,319 - > 00:25:24,960 I'm a coach, I'm not trying to sell coaching, promote coaching 586 00:25:24,960 - > 00:25:27,039 from that standpoint, but there's some things you can't 587 00:25:27,039 - > 00:25:30,799 read a book on that you'll just sabotage yourself or sabotage 588 00:25:30,880 - > 00:25:34,240 someone because you'll be micromanaging and not even 589 00:25:34,240 - > 00:25:34,960 realizing it. 590 00:25:35,119 - > 00:25:38,000 And and people are not going to tell you, but you'll see it in 591 00:25:38,000 - > 00:25:41,519 your retention rates, you'll see it in your creativity. 592 00:25:41,759 - > 00:25:44,319 So just like having a coach, having a mentor. 593 00:25:44,559 - > 00:25:47,440 So when you promote people, especially that are new, having 594 00:25:47,440 - > 00:25:50,880 good seasoned veterans, mentors that can mentor them and make 595 00:25:50,880 - > 00:25:54,000 sure they're just checking with them to help to kind of put some 596 00:25:54,000 - > 00:25:55,599 guardrails around. 597 00:25:56,319 - > 00:25:58,400 SPEAKER_00: You think it's important to let people make 598 00:25:58,400 - > 00:26:03,359 their own mistakes as well and sort of stop trying to um you 599 00:26:03,359 - > 00:26:06,400 know plan for that and prevent it? 600 00:26:06,640 - > 00:26:08,240 It's the best way they'll learn, right? 601 00:26:08,319 - > 00:26:10,480 It's kind of like children, raising children. 602 00:26:10,880 - > 00:26:13,119 SPEAKER_01: Oh, and and that's and that's the thing now. 603 00:26:13,440 - > 00:26:16,640 Like uh in the coaching realm, everyone can say they're a 604 00:26:16,640 - > 00:26:16,880 coach. 605 00:26:16,960 - > 00:26:18,559 And there are a lot of people that go through a little 606 00:26:18,559 - > 00:26:20,480 training, and then when you talk to them, they're really a 607 00:26:20,480 - > 00:26:22,960 mentor, they're wanting to come in and say, now, Joanna, here's 608 00:26:22,960 - > 00:26:24,000 what you should do. 609 00:26:24,160 - > 00:26:25,440 That's not the way you do it. 610 00:26:25,519 - > 00:26:27,839 And a real coaching, you're you're asking questions and 611 00:26:27,839 - > 00:26:29,279 helping them to get clarity. 612 00:26:29,519 - > 00:26:32,319 Now, just like if you're running the suicide hotline or a 613 00:26:32,319 - > 00:26:34,720 counselor, if someone really starts threatening self-harm, 614 00:26:34,799 - > 00:26:36,079 you may say, Time out. 615 00:26:36,240 - > 00:26:39,359 But if I'm with you and I'm working with you and I see that 616 00:26:39,359 - > 00:26:42,160 you just absolutely don't have a clue and you're about to make a 617 00:26:42,160 - > 00:26:43,519 mistake, I'll say, Time out. 618 00:26:43,599 - > 00:26:46,559 Can I mentor you for a minute, or can I consult with you for a 619 00:26:46,559 - > 00:26:47,119 minute? 620 00:26:47,359 - > 00:26:50,400 And I'll then I'll say, Here's three things I've seen people do 621 00:26:50,400 - > 00:26:50,960 in this road. 622 00:26:51,200 - > 00:26:52,640 You think one of these might work? 623 00:26:52,880 - > 00:26:56,160 But there's lots of times where you're kind of like, Okay, I 624 00:26:56,160 - > 00:26:59,039 want you to try this, and you kind of help them to lay out 625 00:26:59,039 - > 00:27:02,079 their plan, then you let them try, and and they'll learn from 626 00:27:02,079 - > 00:27:02,400 it. 627 00:27:04,480 - > 00:27:08,400 Experience is a great teacher, yeah, and it's what builds 628 00:27:08,400 - > 00:27:09,119 character, right? 629 00:27:09,759 - > 00:27:13,119 Oh, yes, and when you squeeze someone in when times are good, 630 00:27:13,200 - > 00:27:14,079 everyone's great. 631 00:27:14,319 - > 00:27:16,160 But when times are bad and you're going through a 632 00:27:16,160 - > 00:27:19,119 recession, you got a new company you've just started, and all of 633 00:27:19,119 - > 00:27:20,880 a sudden things are changing. 634 00:27:21,119 - > 00:27:23,839 The ones that survive the challenging times are the ones 635 00:27:23,839 - > 00:27:26,000 that usually have great companies and great cultures and 636 00:27:26,000 - > 00:27:26,400 thrive. 637 00:27:26,720 - > 00:27:28,799 When it's easier, what's in the game? 638 00:27:29,119 - > 00:27:30,559 Yeah, for sure. 639 00:27:30,799 - > 00:27:33,359 SPEAKER_00: You talk about character a lot in the book, and 640 00:27:33,440 - > 00:27:37,039 um it's a tough one to define for me because I and I think a 641 00:27:37,039 - > 00:27:40,160 lot of people probably confuse character with personality. 642 00:27:40,319 - > 00:27:43,519 So, what do you can you explain what you mean by building 643 00:27:43,519 - > 00:27:46,960 character and what is the first step to doing that? 644 00:27:47,680 - > 00:27:49,599 SPEAKER_01: Well, the character is going to be disnoyed when 645 00:27:49,680 - > 00:27:52,480 someone has values, you know, and like I can look at some 646 00:27:52,480 - > 00:27:55,039 politicians that have different views than me, but I respect 647 00:27:55,039 - > 00:27:57,279 them because I know they're gonna be consistent. 648 00:27:57,599 - > 00:28:01,839 Well, character is not having the same values as me, and at 649 00:28:01,839 - > 00:28:04,720 times people want to hire people to think like them, go to the 650 00:28:04,720 - > 00:28:07,039 same church, they in the same clubs. 651 00:28:07,200 - > 00:28:09,680 That's where you end up having tunnel vision. 652 00:28:09,920 - > 00:28:14,319 But having someone that you know is a very ethical person that is 653 00:28:14,319 - > 00:28:17,039 going to do the right thing when it comes down to it, that 654 00:28:17,039 - > 00:28:22,079 they're true to the values of the organization, and they're 655 00:28:22,079 - > 00:28:24,799 going to be consistent. 656 00:28:25,039 - > 00:28:28,720 Uh, I'll I'll say this: there's times where people that I would 657 00:28:28,720 - > 00:28:31,519 not want to go out to eat with that are on my team, or maybe we 658 00:28:31,519 - > 00:28:35,839 just are not that close per se, I totally trust them when making 659 00:28:35,839 - > 00:28:36,240 decisions. 660 00:28:36,400 - > 00:28:37,759 I know they have great character. 661 00:28:38,000 - > 00:28:41,039 There's people that I love that I would just love to go and play 662 00:28:41,039 - > 00:28:44,480 golf with or hang out with, that I'm not about to let them make a 663 00:28:44,480 - > 00:28:46,960 decision because I can't trust them with that decision. 664 00:28:47,039 - > 00:28:49,680 And that's knowing the strengths of your team. 665 00:28:49,920 - > 00:28:52,559 You know, it's part of my job is I want to challenge people. 666 00:28:52,640 - > 00:28:54,880 And if you tell me I want to be a leader, well, I'm gonna give 667 00:28:54,880 - > 00:28:57,920 you opportunities to step into roles and strength you and coach 668 00:28:57,920 - > 00:28:58,160 you. 669 00:28:58,240 - > 00:29:00,720 But there's certain times where I know your skill set well 670 00:29:00,720 - > 00:29:01,440 enough, and that's me. 671 00:29:01,519 - > 00:29:03,119 I've got to know my team's strengths. 672 00:29:03,440 - > 00:29:05,359 And we spend a lot of time doing different things. 673 00:29:05,599 - > 00:29:08,880 We'll do the strengths finder, we'll do the disc, and and we'll 674 00:29:08,880 - > 00:29:12,160 look and laugh at each other because we know we do it enough, 675 00:29:12,240 - > 00:29:14,559 we know each other's quirks and personalities, and we'll make 676 00:29:14,559 - > 00:29:18,480 fun of each other because we know, like I used the Disney 677 00:29:18,640 - > 00:29:21,359 model where we'll let the dreamers dream and we make sure 678 00:29:21,359 - > 00:29:24,799 everyone lets them dream about interrupting, because anytime a 679 00:29:24,799 - > 00:29:27,359 dreamer dreams, there's gonna be a million reasons to say that 680 00:29:27,359 - > 00:29:28,240 won't work. 681 00:29:29,279 - > 00:29:30,000 Oh, yeah. 682 00:29:30,160 - > 00:29:34,880 And so we let them dream, and then after that, we'll let the 683 00:29:34,880 - > 00:29:37,680 ones that gotta have everything dot and cross tear it apart. 684 00:29:37,759 - > 00:29:41,519 Is it and then at the very end, well, let me say this, we'll try 685 00:29:41,519 - > 00:29:42,240 to make it reality. 686 00:29:42,400 - > 00:29:46,400 Like if we're wanting waterfalls and alligators and volcanoes, 687 00:29:46,559 - > 00:29:49,119 then I'll let the ones come in and say, Well, we can't have a 688 00:29:49,119 - > 00:29:51,839 waterfall or a volcano, but we can make an artificial 689 00:29:51,839 - > 00:29:54,880 waterfall, we can make an artificial dinosaur, and then 690 00:29:54,880 - > 00:29:57,440 the land script that want to dot and cross everything. 691 00:29:57,680 - > 00:29:58,480 Is it legal? 692 00:29:58,640 - > 00:29:59,920 Can we get it approved? 693 00:30:00,079 - > 00:30:01,039 Can we fund it? 694 00:30:01,119 - > 00:30:02,079 Can it be sustainable? 695 00:30:02,160 - > 00:30:04,720 So at the end, all of the people have had input. 696 00:30:06,160 - > 00:30:09,200 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's important to get input from the wider team 697 00:30:09,200 - > 00:30:09,680 as well. 698 00:30:09,920 - > 00:30:16,240 Um I think in SaaS companies, the remote team continues to be 699 00:30:16,240 - > 00:30:17,279 quite privileged. 700 00:30:17,359 - > 00:30:22,960 And I do wonder, is it harder to get team trust culture when a 701 00:30:22,960 - > 00:30:25,519 lot of the team is actually working remotely? 702 00:30:25,680 - > 00:30:29,839 I still run into organizations where they're 100% remote and 703 00:30:29,839 - > 00:30:32,000 have been for since COVID days. 704 00:30:32,240 - > 00:30:34,960 Um, what do you find in those organizations? 705 00:30:36,079 - > 00:30:39,680 SPEAKER_01: You know, I will say my organization has shifted back 706 00:30:39,920 - > 00:30:43,039 to in-person, but we do have the ability to flip the switch and 707 00:30:43,039 - > 00:30:45,519 go, you know, like if someone's sick and they need to work from 708 00:30:45,519 - > 00:30:46,000 home. 709 00:30:46,240 - > 00:30:50,079 But a couple of people that I've worked with in my master classes 710 00:30:50,079 - > 00:30:53,200 that I have or a coach have shared some really innovative 711 00:30:53,200 - > 00:30:54,160 things that they do. 712 00:30:54,319 - > 00:30:57,200 Um, a friend of mine runs international teams, and he has 713 00:30:57,200 - > 00:31:00,319 three different countries that he has teams in, and you've got 714 00:31:00,319 - > 00:31:03,200 everything from one country, this is a normal work week. 715 00:31:03,839 - > 00:31:05,920 All three countries have different work weeks, they have 716 00:31:05,920 - > 00:31:07,039 different holidays. 717 00:31:07,279 - > 00:31:10,079 And just being able to say, instead of saying, like in most 718 00:31:10,079 - > 00:31:12,319 of the Christian countries, you're going to have Christmas, 719 00:31:12,480 - > 00:31:15,200 they just give you a pool of days and you take the ones off 720 00:31:15,200 - > 00:31:15,680 you like. 721 00:31:15,920 - > 00:31:19,279 He said, What was funny was his people that are Christians now 722 00:31:19,279 - > 00:31:21,359 are working right around Christmas because there's not a 723 00:31:21,359 - > 00:31:23,279 lot of calls, so they like getting caught up. 724 00:31:23,359 - > 00:31:25,920 So they may have Christmas off, but that's about it. 725 00:31:26,400 - > 00:31:29,759 Uh, another thing that I've seen people do is just creative 726 00:31:29,759 - > 00:31:32,480 things like we're gonna have lunch today, and they all get 727 00:31:32,480 - > 00:31:34,480 their lunches and they have a lunch and they just sit there 728 00:31:34,559 - > 00:31:37,200 like you would in a workroom and they're talking and having fun 729 00:31:37,440 - > 00:31:38,880 while they're having lunch together. 730 00:31:39,039 - > 00:31:42,880 So I think if you look at it as far as things that people like 731 00:31:42,880 - > 00:31:45,759 to do or want to do, I think you can be creative. 732 00:31:45,920 - > 00:31:50,559 Um, you know, as a supervisor, e-cards for birthdays, holidays, 733 00:31:50,799 - > 00:31:53,519 just being able to do the shout-outs and recognizing 734 00:31:53,519 - > 00:31:56,240 people, the way they like to be recognized is good too. 735 00:31:56,400 - > 00:31:58,880 The one thing I caution with that, and I think the last time 736 00:31:58,880 - > 00:32:00,559 I talked, I mentioned the platinum rule. 737 00:32:00,640 - > 00:32:04,160 But as a as a leader, like I value knowing my team. 738 00:32:04,400 - > 00:32:07,039 Well, I want someone new, I'm gonna treat them like the golden 739 00:32:07,039 - > 00:32:09,920 rule, which every faith has, is I'm gonna treat you the way you 740 00:32:10,000 - > 00:32:12,799 I want to be treated, but then I want to get to know you and 741 00:32:12,799 - > 00:32:14,720 treat you the way you want to be treated. 742 00:32:14,880 - > 00:32:18,640 Like if you you have children and you need to if I just give 743 00:32:18,640 - > 00:32:21,599 you extra time off to go to ball games or have things, that means 744 00:32:21,599 - > 00:32:22,079 a lot to you. 745 00:32:22,240 - > 00:32:25,039 Someone else may want to raise more money more than anything, 746 00:32:25,119 - > 00:32:27,440 or someone may like being publicly recognized with a 747 00:32:27,440 - > 00:32:30,240 plaque, while another person does not want to be publicly 748 00:32:30,240 - > 00:32:30,880 recognized. 749 00:32:31,039 - > 00:32:34,319 Well, if I know that as a leader, then I can tailor my my 750 00:32:34,319 - > 00:32:35,599 praise to them. 751 00:32:37,119 - > 00:32:39,599 And not just praise, but the the accolades. 752 00:32:40,240 - > 00:32:40,720 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 753 00:32:40,880 - > 00:32:41,200 Yeah. 754 00:32:41,359 - > 00:32:43,680 The importance of really just recognizing the different 755 00:32:43,680 - > 00:32:47,279 characters in the organization and their strengths and their 756 00:32:47,279 - > 00:32:50,720 values, and really just catering to that rather than treating 757 00:32:50,720 - > 00:32:51,680 everyone the same. 758 00:32:51,920 - > 00:32:56,799 Another really good one that I heard recently was um allowing 759 00:32:56,799 - > 00:33:00,319 people to excuse themselves from meetings where they know they're 760 00:33:00,319 - > 00:33:05,039 not gonna get or give any value as well, which I know a lot of 761 00:33:05,039 - > 00:33:08,160 us see in those meetings going like, Why the hell am I near? 762 00:33:09,599 - > 00:33:10,400 SPEAKER_01: That happens. 763 00:33:10,640 - > 00:33:11,759 Death by meetings. 764 00:33:12,000 - > 00:33:15,279 That is one thing that we have tried to do a good job of. 765 00:33:15,519 - > 00:33:19,680 And uh the one thing I have stressed the whole time is we 766 00:33:19,680 - > 00:33:24,079 try to have minimalist meetings, and we tell people, don't be 767 00:33:24,079 - > 00:33:24,559 offended. 768 00:33:24,640 - > 00:33:27,039 But if you're not in a meeting you need to be in, you need to 769 00:33:27,039 - > 00:33:30,079 talk to us because no one's no one's got ill intentions. 770 00:33:30,400 - > 00:33:32,720 And there's times where we'll have a meeting, and in the 771 00:33:32,720 - > 00:33:35,440 middle of it, we're like, oh gosh, we need to have Joanne in 772 00:33:35,440 - > 00:33:38,319 here, she's not here, or we need to have Tom in here, and then 773 00:33:38,319 - > 00:33:41,200 he'll be like, Tom, someone on the team will give Tom an 774 00:33:41,200 - > 00:33:41,519 update. 775 00:33:41,680 - > 00:33:44,240 Next time we need you in, here's what we did today because we 776 00:33:44,240 - > 00:33:44,720 needed them. 777 00:33:44,960 - > 00:33:48,480 But I think that is a that's a tool that I use as a leader that 778 00:33:48,480 - > 00:33:53,759 I like because I don't like having people in and they're 779 00:33:53,759 - > 00:33:54,640 wasting their time. 780 00:33:54,799 - > 00:33:57,599 Now, my big meetings like once a week, I have a big like all 781 00:33:57,759 - > 00:34:00,880 hands, all in my cabinet, and and we have time, we just do our 782 00:34:00,880 - > 00:34:01,359 big rides. 783 00:34:01,519 - > 00:34:02,319 What are we working on? 784 00:34:02,400 - > 00:34:03,039 What do we need? 785 00:34:03,119 - > 00:34:04,400 How can we support each other? 786 00:34:04,640 - > 00:34:07,359 Helps me as a leader to know the rhythms because now I've been 787 00:34:07,359 - > 00:34:08,400 around everyone long enough. 788 00:34:08,480 - > 00:34:12,719 I know, okay, Karen likes this, and if I have a special project, 789 00:34:12,960 - > 00:34:15,280 she can do this at this time of the year, but this time of year 790 00:34:15,360 - > 00:34:18,079 she can't because she's got all of her federal reports to you or 791 00:34:18,079 - > 00:34:20,559 whatever, but you kind of learn the rhythms too. 792 00:34:22,880 - > 00:34:24,000 SPEAKER_00: That sounds good. 793 00:34:24,239 - > 00:34:28,960 Um, we've talked about trans in the workplace amongst employees, 794 00:34:29,119 - > 00:34:30,159 amongst the CEOs. 795 00:34:30,320 - > 00:34:33,440 One thing we haven't touched on is trans with customers. 796 00:34:33,679 - > 00:34:37,840 And so specifically in the world of sadism, uh having done some 797 00:34:37,840 - > 00:34:40,159 research, here's a status of me. 798 00:34:40,480 - > 00:34:44,719 It said that four percent, less than four percent of the SASA 799 00:34:44,960 - > 00:34:50,000 side customers will complain before they leave, which means 800 00:34:50,159 - > 00:34:52,639 most people, you don't know if they're a percent, they will 801 00:34:52,639 - > 00:34:53,440 just go quietly. 802 00:34:53,519 - > 00:34:55,039 I know that's be in a restaurant. 803 00:34:55,119 - > 00:34:58,159 If I'll never complain about my food, I'll just leave quietly 804 00:34:58,159 - > 00:34:59,119 and never come back. 805 00:35:00,079 - > 00:35:03,440 Um, but it's that's fundamentally a trust problem, 806 00:35:03,519 - > 00:35:04,000 isn't it? 807 00:35:04,159 - > 00:35:09,840 And so what um what can organizations do about this? 808 00:35:11,440 - > 00:35:13,840 SPEAKER_01: That that is not just in the SaaS world. 809 00:35:13,920 - > 00:35:16,239 I think that's in multiple organizations now. 810 00:35:16,400 - > 00:35:20,239 And you know, I still take pride in if I have an issue, I'll call 811 00:35:20,239 - > 00:35:22,960 a place and say, you know, I'm not the one that's gonna post on 812 00:35:22,960 - > 00:35:26,320 Facebook or social media, but here's an issue we had, and uh 813 00:35:26,559 - > 00:35:28,880 encourage people to do the same for me. 814 00:35:28,960 - > 00:35:32,079 And we haven't publicly did that in our organization, trying to 815 00:35:32,079 - > 00:35:34,639 get people to call us when there's issues or use our 816 00:35:34,639 - > 00:35:35,760 suggestion boxes. 817 00:35:36,000 - > 00:35:40,960 But you know, the world of SaaS, uh, I mean, we use so many SaaS 818 00:35:41,039 - > 00:35:44,159 products, and I think it's just like any other field, the best 819 00:35:44,159 - > 00:35:46,960 customer you have is the one that you have now, and you don't 820 00:35:46,960 - > 00:35:47,920 want to lose them. 821 00:35:48,159 - > 00:35:51,519 And it's so easy to get busy and just assume there's a great 822 00:35:51,519 - > 00:35:55,840 relationship, or or maybe it's not the company, but I'm hooked 823 00:35:55,840 - > 00:35:59,920 on to the salesperson, I love them, and I'm addicted to the 824 00:35:59,920 - > 00:36:00,400 salesperson. 825 00:36:00,800 - > 00:36:04,400 And then when they leave, the new one doesn't connect with me 826 00:36:04,639 - > 00:36:06,159 for the way they did. 827 00:36:06,559 - > 00:36:10,559 Uh now, when you're buying, I would encourage this when you're 828 00:36:10,559 - > 00:36:15,119 buying companies and you're merging, you know, communicate 829 00:36:15,119 - > 00:36:18,079 with the people that are being bought, communicate with the 830 00:36:18,079 - > 00:36:21,440 people that are you're emerging because the clients, I mean, I 831 00:36:21,440 - > 00:36:23,840 may like a product, I don't know anything about this company's 832 00:36:24,000 - > 00:36:24,239 buying. 833 00:36:24,320 - > 00:36:26,639 And then when things start changing, if you don't give me a 834 00:36:26,639 - > 00:36:29,599 heads up what's changing with a roadmap and communicate with me, 835 00:36:29,679 - > 00:36:32,079 I'm gonna be very frustrated. 836 00:36:32,719 - > 00:36:36,000 Uh, you know, I'm not a SaaS designer, but we spend hundreds 837 00:36:36,000 - > 00:36:38,559 and hundreds of thousands of dollars on SaaS tools, and that 838 00:36:38,559 - > 00:36:41,039 happens a lot where you have a company you love, they merge, 839 00:36:41,199 - > 00:36:45,199 things change, and then they don't or they'll say things are 840 00:36:45,199 - > 00:36:48,559 gonna blend, but they rush the the blending instead of beta 841 00:36:48,559 - > 00:36:51,119 testing and making sure everything's synced up. 842 00:36:51,920 - > 00:36:54,639 SPEAKER_00: I think mergers, it's a common thing that 843 00:36:54,639 - > 00:36:55,119 happens. 844 00:36:55,440 - > 00:36:58,159 Um, they don't always communicate, they'll buy out 845 00:36:58,239 - > 00:37:01,039 like a the the a smaller company, they won't tell the 846 00:37:01,039 - > 00:37:02,159 employees what's happening. 847 00:37:02,239 - > 00:37:04,639 Everyone gets flurried that they're gonna lose their job, so 848 00:37:04,639 - > 00:37:07,760 they they start leaving um customers as well. 849 00:37:07,920 - > 00:37:10,159 They're like, well, they'll probably put up the prices. 850 00:37:10,320 - > 00:37:13,119 Everyone's making all these assumptions that's really 851 00:37:13,119 - > 00:37:14,159 eroding the trust. 852 00:37:14,239 - > 00:37:17,679 And so again, this comes back to the sea of communication. 853 00:37:17,840 - > 00:37:22,320 A lack of communication can really start losing a lot of 854 00:37:22,320 - > 00:37:26,320 customers and also really good employees in an organization. 855 00:37:26,960 - > 00:37:29,920 SPEAKER_01: There's a lot in the book about that because silence 856 00:37:30,159 - > 00:37:35,920 gives human nature when anything is new, we're gonna guard 857 00:37:35,920 - > 00:37:38,880 ourselves against pain over pleasure. 858 00:37:39,199 - > 00:37:42,320 And when someone says something's new, people are 859 00:37:42,320 - > 00:37:43,599 gonna think, Am I gonna die? 860 00:37:43,679 - > 00:37:44,480 Is it gonna kill me? 861 00:37:44,639 - > 00:37:45,760 Well, how bad is it gonna be? 862 00:37:45,920 - > 00:37:47,199 They think the worst things. 863 00:37:47,599 - > 00:37:50,719 And often if you'll just give people a good rationale and 864 00:37:50,719 - > 00:37:53,199 communicate with them and then get back and give them time to 865 00:37:53,199 - > 00:37:56,559 decompress and then give them time to ask questions, that 866 00:37:56,559 - > 00:37:57,599 helps a lot. 867 00:37:58,000 - > 00:38:01,679 But when you're in a world of SaaS where you've got developers 868 00:38:01,679 - > 00:38:04,320 that are paid very, very well and they have all kinds of 869 00:38:04,320 - > 00:38:05,280 opportunities. 870 00:38:05,519 - > 00:38:09,039 If you're not communicating, the silence is going to give the 871 00:38:09,039 - > 00:38:12,880 people with a negative side the opportunity to tell the story, 872 00:38:13,039 - > 00:38:14,639 and then you're gonna be behind the game. 873 00:38:14,800 - > 00:38:16,960 I've actually got a story about that about a leader that's 874 00:38:16,960 - > 00:38:18,880 having to go through that in the book. 875 00:38:19,119 - > 00:38:22,079 And you know, it's very frustrating when you're in that 876 00:38:22,079 - > 00:38:25,119 environment and you have great intentions, but you can't get 877 00:38:25,119 - > 00:38:29,119 ahead of the story because you were quiet, and the river mill 878 00:38:29,280 - > 00:38:29,840 is so fast. 879 00:38:29,920 - > 00:38:33,119 And once people make up their minds, we see this in the world 880 00:38:33,119 - > 00:38:33,519 today. 881 00:38:33,760 - > 00:38:36,239 When someone makes up their mind, even if you present with 882 00:38:36,239 - > 00:38:39,840 rational facts, they're gonna double down even more often. 883 00:38:40,239 - > 00:38:43,519 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so true, so true. 884 00:38:44,400 - > 00:38:47,679 My last question, I've already asked you this one because 885 00:38:47,679 - > 00:38:49,280 you've been on this podcast before. 886 00:38:49,360 - > 00:38:52,239 So I'm gonna redo it a little bit. 887 00:38:52,480 - > 00:38:55,119 So, this is a tradition question that I like to end on. 888 00:38:55,280 - > 00:38:58,400 And it's basically if you could go back in time, what advice 889 00:38:58,400 - > 00:38:59,840 would you give your younger self? 890 00:39:00,159 - > 00:39:01,360 You've already answered that. 891 00:39:01,519 - > 00:39:04,400 So I'm gonna reword it slightly in this instance. 892 00:39:04,480 - > 00:39:09,199 And it's if you could go back in time, which pillar of trance did 893 00:39:09,280 - > 00:39:13,360 you wish you understood earlier in your leadership journey? 894 00:39:14,960 - > 00:39:16,000 SPEAKER_01: Oh goodness. 895 00:39:16,159 - > 00:39:18,079 Uh, you know, you know my background. 896 00:39:18,159 - > 00:39:21,360 I was a kid in school, it was ADHD, dyslexic, full speed 897 00:39:21,360 - > 00:39:21,760 ahead. 898 00:39:21,920 - > 00:39:24,960 I didn't even realize I was dyslexic until my oldest son was 899 00:39:24,960 - > 00:39:26,320 diagnosed with dyslexia. 900 00:39:26,400 - > 00:39:29,199 And I asked the doctor, I said, Do you think I'm dyslexic? 901 00:39:29,360 - > 00:39:30,239 And he started laughing. 902 00:39:30,320 - > 00:39:32,719 He was like, I'm not dyslexic, ADHD. 903 00:39:32,960 - > 00:39:35,599 And he started laughing, and he was like, You're a poster child 904 00:39:35,679 - > 00:39:37,920 for an adult's never been diagnosed. 905 00:39:38,159 - > 00:39:42,400 So my first 10 years in administration, I was like, wow. 906 00:39:42,480 - > 00:39:46,480 I mean, just busy, busy, busy, you know, that synergy, take 907 00:39:46,480 - > 00:39:47,119 action. 908 00:39:47,599 - > 00:39:50,960 And I did mature and I did learn to slow down and take care of 909 00:39:50,960 - > 00:39:52,400 myself better and to care more. 910 00:39:52,559 - > 00:39:58,000 It wasn't that I didn't care, but I really needed to find 911 00:39:58,000 - > 00:40:00,159 people that are like the ones that really like the party 912 00:40:00,159 - > 00:40:01,840 planning and they really better think. 913 00:40:02,000 - > 00:40:04,000 So I make sure now I have really good people around me. 914 00:40:04,079 - > 00:40:07,119 Yeah, I love my people, I care for my team, but I want to have 915 00:40:07,119 - > 00:40:09,679 people that that's their passion, that's what fills their 916 00:40:10,320 - > 00:40:11,519 buckets every day. 917 00:40:11,679 - > 00:40:14,000 I mean, I've always been competent, I've always known 918 00:40:14,000 - > 00:40:16,800 about communicating, always been very consistent. 919 00:40:16,880 - > 00:40:19,360 You know who I am, you know I have character, and I have the 920 00:40:19,360 - > 00:40:20,880 courage to make decisions. 921 00:40:21,119 - > 00:40:24,159 Uh, but the one that's probably one of my weaknesses is the 922 00:40:24,159 - > 00:40:25,039 clarity side. 923 00:40:25,199 - > 00:40:27,760 You know, I'm communicating, but do people really understand? 924 00:40:27,920 - > 00:40:30,079 So that's helped me as a literary learn to put more 925 00:40:30,079 - > 00:40:33,599 feedback loops in, to realize that people assume I know 926 00:40:33,599 - > 00:40:37,119 everything, even though I don't, and to put the feedback loops in 927 00:40:37,199 - > 00:40:40,320 and to really get the vibes of what's going on in the workplace 928 00:40:40,400 - > 00:40:40,880 floor. 929 00:40:41,119 - > 00:40:45,760 Like our big goal this next year is we're going to focus on 930 00:40:45,760 - > 00:40:48,719 strategic pruning and going into our teams and getting on the 931 00:40:48,719 - > 00:40:51,599 ground floor and getting them started and get out and let them 932 00:40:51,599 - > 00:40:54,880 tell us what's working, what's not, where you had to duplicate 933 00:40:54,880 - > 00:40:57,280 processes, what processes are in place. 934 00:40:57,440 - > 00:41:01,039 Now, this is not as much SaaS-oriented, but as some of 935 00:41:01,119 - > 00:41:03,840 your organizations have been around for a while, you'll have 936 00:41:03,920 - > 00:41:07,360 turnover and people keep buying the same things just because 937 00:41:07,360 - > 00:41:09,760 they've always bought them, or they'll keep doing things the 938 00:41:09,760 - > 00:41:12,320 same way, but they don't even need to do that anymore. 939 00:41:12,480 - > 00:41:15,039 People are not even using the tools or or they're doing 940 00:41:15,039 - > 00:41:17,360 something that's not aligned because it's just the way it's 941 00:41:17,360 - > 00:41:17,840 always been done. 942 00:41:18,000 - > 00:41:21,199 So we're going to try to go back and really give our employees a 943 00:41:21,199 - > 00:41:23,679 lot more time and just purge them wherever we can. 944 00:41:23,920 - > 00:41:25,840 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really good initiative. 945 00:41:26,079 - > 00:41:30,400 Um, I also I think that would be my weakness as well, the clarity 946 00:41:30,400 - > 00:41:30,559 part. 947 00:41:30,639 - > 00:41:34,079 I can't tell you the number of times I felt like I communicated 948 00:41:34,079 - > 00:41:34,559 something. 949 00:41:34,800 - > 00:41:37,920 What I got in return wasn't what I was expecting. 950 00:41:38,000 - > 00:41:40,239 And I just went, I wasn't clear enough. 951 00:41:40,320 - > 00:41:41,360 It's it's my fault. 952 00:41:41,440 - > 00:41:44,239 So um clarity is a big one for me to work on as well. 953 00:41:44,400 - > 00:41:45,840 Maybe that would be my goal. 954 00:41:46,559 - > 00:41:49,199 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I and I've learned, you know, tell me, 955 00:41:49,679 - > 00:41:50,559 paraphrasing. 956 00:41:50,639 - > 00:41:54,079 Now tell me what actions you're gonna take, what what what meet, 957 00:41:54,159 - > 00:41:55,119 what did you get from this? 958 00:41:55,280 - > 00:41:56,159 That helps. 959 00:41:56,400 - > 00:41:58,880 And then I'll pick you back off of what you just said. 960 00:41:59,039 - > 00:42:03,760 One tip that I'll give the leaders about repairing trust is 961 00:42:04,000 - > 00:42:10,559 don't say I'm sorry, don't say I made a mistake without doing one 962 00:42:10,559 - > 00:42:11,119 thing. 963 00:42:11,360 - > 00:42:14,480 When I say I'm sorry if I've broken trust, I'm putting that 964 00:42:14,480 - > 00:42:15,440 really in limbo. 965 00:42:15,920 - > 00:42:19,840 But when I say, Joanna, I tried this, it did not work, and I 966 00:42:19,840 - > 00:42:21,440 know your team suffered. 967 00:42:21,679 - > 00:42:23,039 Here, I'm sorry for that. 968 00:42:23,280 - > 00:42:25,760 Here's what I'm gonna do the next time. 969 00:42:26,000 - > 00:42:29,280 That way I'm actually saying what I'm gonna do, and when I 970 00:42:29,280 - > 00:42:32,639 repeat that, repeat that, repeat that, I'm building the trust up 971 00:42:32,719 - > 00:42:35,599 and I'm establishing more credibility because I've omitted 972 00:42:35,599 - > 00:42:35,760 that. 973 00:42:35,840 - > 00:42:37,920 So I my employees will trust me more. 974 00:42:38,320 - > 00:42:39,599 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that. 975 00:42:39,760 - > 00:42:41,840 That's a good line, Carol. 976 00:42:42,079 - > 00:42:43,440 Thank you so much for being on the show. 977 00:42:43,599 - > 00:42:47,039 For anyone interested, where can they get this book? 978 00:42:47,280 - > 00:42:48,639 Other than Amazon, of course. 979 00:42:49,360 - > 00:42:50,719 SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm gonna say this. 980 00:42:50,880 - > 00:42:54,079 You're in a special situation, you have an advanced copy 981 00:42:54,239 - > 00:42:57,199 officially on July the 7th, so we're a little over a month 982 00:42:57,199 - > 00:42:58,719 away, it'll be available. 983 00:42:58,960 - > 00:43:02,000 Uh one thing I'm excited about is on my landing page, which 984 00:43:02,159 - > 00:43:03,280 will go live in a couple weeks. 985 00:43:03,360 - > 00:43:06,480 Well, in about a week, I've got a trust assessment that you can 986 00:43:06,480 - > 00:43:06,800 take. 987 00:43:06,960 - > 00:43:09,360 And when you register, you're not gonna be blasted a lot of 988 00:43:09,360 - > 00:43:11,760 emails, but it will keep you in the loop as far as what's 989 00:43:11,760 - > 00:43:12,400 happening. 990 00:43:12,639 - > 00:43:15,519 Once you buy your book in the back, there's a code that you 991 00:43:15,519 - > 00:43:16,000 can enter. 992 00:43:16,079 - > 00:43:19,840 It's your code, and there's a lot of supportive materials for 993 00:43:19,840 - > 00:43:20,000 it. 994 00:43:20,159 - > 00:43:23,280 And if you love workbooks, I have a very nice workbook that 995 00:43:23,280 - > 00:43:24,880 will be available when the book is. 996 00:43:25,039 - > 00:43:27,039 But I'm gonna do this for because the people who are going 997 00:43:27,039 - > 00:43:28,719 to buy the book are going to be people that know you've been 998 00:43:28,719 - > 00:43:29,519 reading your stuff. 999 00:43:29,679 - > 00:43:32,880 The first month from July the 7th to August the 7th, I'm gonna 1000 00:43:32,880 - > 00:43:36,400 give a uh PDF of the workbook for the people that purchased 1001 00:43:36,400 - > 00:43:36,960 them that month. 1002 00:43:37,119 - > 00:43:38,800 I think they're gonna enjoy the workbook. 1003 00:43:38,960 - > 00:43:42,159 And then one thing I'm really excited about along that lines 1004 00:43:42,400 - > 00:43:45,599 is I've been having master classes, just free masterclasses 1005 00:43:45,679 - > 00:43:47,440 and paid masterminds for a while. 1006 00:43:47,599 - > 00:43:50,320 But I've got about four days already for when you buy the 1007 00:43:50,320 - > 00:43:52,559 book and rest, you can sign up for a masterclass. 1008 00:43:52,639 - > 00:43:55,360 And we'll have a conversation like we did today, just kind of 1009 00:43:55,360 - > 00:43:57,760 going over some of the pillars, asking people to bring some of 1010 00:43:57,760 - > 00:43:59,920 the issues so you have some great coaching going on for 1011 00:43:59,920 - > 00:44:01,840 about 90 minutes as a way to serve people. 1012 00:44:02,079 - > 00:44:03,119 SPEAKER_00: Yay, love that. 1013 00:44:03,199 - > 00:44:05,519 We're gonna have all of that in the show notes for everyone to 1014 00:44:05,519 - > 00:44:06,400 be able to access. 1015 00:44:06,639 - > 00:44:07,599 Thank you so much. 1016 00:44:08,079 - > 00:44:08,559 SPEAKER_01: Thank you. 1017 00:44:08,719 - > 00:44:09,840 And I've enjoyed it. 1018 00:44:10,000 - > 00:44:14,400 I hope you guys have a great, well, great winter, not summer, 1019 00:44:14,480 - > 00:44:14,960 but winter.