3 People, $4.6m Revenue, $60m Exit | Esben Friis-Jensen, S3E5

1 - > SPEAKER_01: Today's guest is Espen Fries Jensen, co-founder 2 - > of Userflow, a no-code onboarding tool he bootstrapped 3 - > to$4.6 million in revenue with just three people before selling 4 - > to Beamer in a deal reported to be over$60 million. 5 - > Before Userflow, Espen spent seven years building Cobalt, a 6 - > VC-backed cybersecurity company that raised$37 million and grew 7 - > to over 200 employees. 8 - > He left that company without a financial outcome.

9 - > Then he built Userflow as the complete opposite: no VC, no 10 - > hiring, no meetings, maximum ownership. 11 - > In this episode, we get into what the Cobalt experience 12 - > taught him, how he and his co-founder pay themselves first 13 - > and design a company around the life they wanted, and what life 14 - > looks like now that he's essentially retired in his early 15 - > 40s with nowhere he needs to be. 16 - > If you've ever wondered what happens when you finally achieve 17 - > the freedom you are chasing, this one's for you.

18 - > Welcome to another episode of ProfitLed. 19 - > I'm your host, Melissa Kwan, co-founder of eWebinar. 20 - > This season we're exploring the intersection of passion, profit, 21 - > and purpose, and how those things change as founders evolve 22 - > and come into financial success. 23 - > Let's get started.

24 - > Espen, at the start of your career, when you were at 25 - > Accenture, what did success look like for you? 26 - > SPEAKER_00: I think when I started my career, I had big 27 - > ambitions. 28 - > I wanted to be uh the leader of some kind of big company or 29 - > something similar to that. 30 - > In Accenture, they have this kind of traditional pyramid 31 - > model, right?

32 - > You have uh some young people doing a lot of work and then you 33 - > kind of grow uh in the pyramid. 34 - > And I loved that at the beginning of my career, that you 35 - > could kind of easily see the next path, the next kind of step 36 - > in the ladder. 37 - > And I would work late hours to achieve the next level and 38 - > deliver high performance. 39 - > So I think in that part of my uh career, I was all about work 40 - > late hours, work more than uh I need to, and and grow my career 41 - > so I can become at that point in time, I wanted to be like the 42 - > CEO of a large company or something like that.

43 - > SPEAKER_01: I mean, the last job that I had was at SAP. 44 - > Yeah. 45 - > So I fully understand that pyramid. 46 - > It wasn't really for me, I didn't have that ambition, but 47 - > it's it's interesting to see that you already had kind of 48 - > that drive in you, but just within a corporate structure.

49 - > So in 2013, you and three friends moved from Copenhagen to 50 - > San Francisco to start a company. 51 - > And at the time, I guess there was no VC scene in Denmark. 52 - > So take me back to that moment. 53 - > What was going through your head and and what did you think was 54 - > waiting for you kind of on the other side in San Francisco?

55 - > SPEAKER_00: So just taking a step back, I think what I 56 - > realized in Accenture when I was there is I kind of lacked owning 57 - > the end result. 58 - > I think as a consultant, you you do, and even in Accenture, we're 59 - > very much hands-on and implement stuff, but we were just, you 60 - > know, implementing it, and then we didn't really own it 61 - > afterwards, right? 62 - > Like we were not kind of accountable in all ways to the 63 - > end user. 64 - > We just had to deliver this kind of typically SAP software, and 65 - > then uh whether the end users were successful with it or not 66 - > was not the most important thing.

67 - > The most important thing was the executives at the company we 68 - > were servicing felt that they got the service they expected. 69 - > So I was always like feeling I was missing something. 70 - > I I felt like I was looking for basically something where I 71 - > could be more part of a company, be part of something where you 72 - > actually owned the ultimate end result. 73 - > So I started looking for kind of more traditional companies like 74 - > product companies and stuff like that where I could potentially 75 - > work.

76 - > But I I could also feel when looking at those companies that 77 - > what they had in like being hands-on to a product, they 78 - > lacked in ambition and these kind of things that I was 79 - > looking for. 80 - > So it's really hard to find that perfect match where they had 81 - > ambition, but they were more of a product company. 82 - > But then uh my friend uh Jacob, who had met in Accenture, he had 83 - > uh left one year prior and moved to Argentina. 84 - > He kind of convinced me that we should do uh a startup.

85 - > We were always the two last ones in the in the office in in 86 - > Accenture. 87 - > So we had a lot of like late-night talks, and uh that's 88 - > how we got to know each other. 89 - > And and basically when he reached out and said, like, why 90 - > don't you uh want to do a startup with me? 91 - > I I took some convincing because it it was like a risky move, 92 - > right?

93 - > I I felt. 94 - > But the more we talked about it, the more kind of convinced I got 95 - > that this could be something fun to try out, and the risk of 96 - > doing it was not really um too big. 97 - > In Denmark, we have a very wide safety net. 98 - > Uh, if you lose your job, you you uh don't really uh suffer 99 - > too much.

100 - > And I felt I could always go back and work at Accenture if I 101 - > wanted to. 102 - > So what I actually did initially was a three-month sabbatical 103 - > from Accenture, and then uh I packed my bag and flew to 104 - > Argentina to join uh Jacob and uh two other of his friends, one 105 - > of them being his brother, and then uh we kind of started on 106 - > this project that became Cobalt. 107 - > SPEAKER_01: Were you kind of dead set on like I'm gonna go 108 - > raise money, build a startup in San Francisco?

109 - > Like, what did you think was kind of there waiting for you? 110 - > SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know that world existed when I 111 - > started the startup, to be honest. 112 - > I knew some entrepreneurs in Denmark, but the startup scene 113 - > was, from my perspective, non-existent. 114 - > There was a couple, the Just Eat founder in Denmark, he had 115 - > written a book that I had read.

116 - > Uh so he was like one of the stories I'd heard. 117 - > And I'd always been like fascinated by some of these 118 - > startup stories, but there were fewer ideals at the Skype story. 119 - > One of the Skype founders is from Denmark. 120 - > Uh so those were the like only stories I had heard about.

121 - > So it wasn't like I was familiar with the startup scene or 122 - > anything like that. 123 - > But I think what was happening at that year or 2013 was that 124 - > definitely startups were getting more attention in the media, so 125 - > it was becoming more of a cool thing to do. 126 - > Uh, and I think one of the big things that had happened was Tim 127 - > Ferris wrote the book for our work week, right? 128 - > Which I think many people read.

129 - > And that also became an inspiration for many to do how 130 - > can I build that? 131 - > How can I build that kind of lifestyle? 132 - > And that was also part of me making the decision to look into 133 - > the startup world. 134 - > So yeah, I didn't have a strong ambition to do anything uh with 135 - > this, really.

136 - > I just wanted to do something different than Accenture and do 137 - > something that could potentially become big, where you could kind 138 - > of have ambition and build a true product where you owned the 139 - > end result. 140 - > SPEAKER_01: And before UserFlow, as you mentioned, you spent 141 - > seven years at Cobalt. 142 - > You had it was four total co-founders, right? 143 - > So you had three other co-founders, 37 million raised, 144 - > 200 employees.

145 - > And I mean, that's a company that many founders listening 146 - > would envy having, in theory. 147 - > But you left. 148 - > So what happened there that drove you to walk away from the 149 - > company that most founders want? 150 - > SPEAKER_00: So I think seven years is first of all, it's a 151 - > long time uh to be in a company.

152 - > Uh, and and we had we did have a lot of fun on the way, and uh 153 - > and uh I I enjoyed a lot of the ride. 154 - > But what I think started happening was we were growing 155 - > the company and we were hiring more and more employees, which I 156 - > mean uh in some ways is a good thing, right? 157 - > It means the company is growing, but in other ways it also 158 - > typically means that you as a founder have to take a step back 159 - > and uh empower your employees to take the control and and kind of 160 - > do the tasks.

161 - > And that means that you have a risk. 162 - > I I felt that was happening to me, that I became disconnected 163 - > uh more and more from the product and the customers, where 164 - > we in the beginning, you know, we were four founders and we 165 - > had, of course, I had to agree with the four founders, but it 166 - > was a much easier kind of path to change the product, change go 167 - > to market, or change anything compared to when you're in a 200 168 - > employee company and you want to do a change, it's uh 169 - > significantly harder, even as a founder.

170 - > Uh so I think I kind of got tired of that, that the 171 - > organization uh actually resulted in things moving a bit 172 - > slower and me not having the same kind of power to impact 173 - > stuff that I wanted. 174 - > So that's the reason I I eventually ended up leaving 175 - > COBOL. 176 - > And by the way, COBOL is still a very operational uh company and 177 - > and growing company. 178 - > So I think I left in in good conditions, uh, but it was 179 - > important for me to do something else because I was just tired of 180 - > it, basically.

181 - > SPEAKER_01: I mean, you said publicly you can build this 182 - > amazing company and get very little out of it. 183 - > What did you mean by that? 184 - > And what did that experience, I guess, teach you about the 185 - > relationship between effort and reward? 186 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you can say in cobalt, I've I 187 - > continued on the path that I had kind of had in Accenture, where 188 - > I would work late hours, work, work, work, so work extremely 189 - > hard, especially the early years of of Kobold.

190 - > And we we decided to raise capital, which meant we diluted 191 - > ourselves as founders, and we raised uh Series Angel, Seat, uh 192 - > Series A, Series B. 193 - > And suddenly also because we were four co-founders, uh, the 194 - > stake you had in the company were not that uh big anymore. 195 - > But you were still working many hours, uh, but you were just 196 - > earning basically like a normal executive salary, right? 197 - > And I think even sometimes a bit lower salary because as a 198 - > founder, you're not expected to pay yourself a huge chunk of 199 - > money in a in a VC-backed company.

200 - > So, what I meant when I said that was basically like when you 201 - > decide to raise VC money, you're kind of already going on the 202 - > path that you're starting to work for somebody else. 203 - > Uh you're no longer in control of the company to do whatever 204 - > you want, to pay yourself a high salary, to sell the company when 205 - > you want, and these kind of things. 206 - > So, what many VC back founders end up with is basically that 207 - > they end up in this kind of stale state where you still have 208 - > ownership in the company and and you are maybe working a lot, uh, 209 - > but you don't have the decision power to potentially exit the 210 - > company and and get some financial reward out of that.

211 - > And you cannot even determine your own salary and these kind 212 - > of things, right? 213 - > So even though you you worked hard, you built a huge company 214 - > uh with COBOL, it's 200 employees, right? 215 - > I still haven't gotten a huge payout from building COBOL, 216 - > right? 217 - > I I still think it's fantastic we build a great company.

218 - > Uh we help many businesses become more secure. 219 - > So, yes, I can value that part of the journey and got to work 220 - > with a lot of amazing people. 221 - > But uh for me personally, uh the financial reward has been very 222 - > little, right? 223 - > Uh so far.

224 - > We'll see in the future. 225 - > They can still uh you know exit the company or do something. 226 - > SPEAKER_01: And instead of taking a break, you immediately 227 - > started another company, which was Userflow. 228 - > But this time you chose to do everything opposite.

229 - > Like it cannot be more different, right? 230 - > No VC, no hiring, smallest team possible, maximum ownership with 231 - > one other founder. 232 - > So, how much of User Flow's experience was a direct 233 - > reaction, I guess, to what you did at Cobalt? 234 - > And what were the specific things you said, I'm never gonna 235 - > do that again?

236 - > SPEAKER_00: Uh basically it was a very strong reaction because 237 - > it was like the complete counter to what I was doing. 238 - > And I was also actually, before I made the decision, I was a bit 239 - > in doubt is this a good choice to leave this company, which is 240 - > uh highly successful, right, in in all uh aspects. 241 - > But I'm just personally not so happy with what I'm doing and 242 - > and and my impact, right? 243 - > But my good friend Sebastian, who was my co-founder at USLO, 244 - > he had uh tried to convince me one year prior, and and then I 245 - > he finally got me convinced because I got basically uh so 246 - > tired of being in a in a larger company and uh said, why not?

247 - > Let's let's do this, uh let's see what we can do. 248 - > Uh and Sebastian, he was very much on that. 249 - > He's always been on that path, actually. 250 - > He he never wanted to build a big company, he never wanted to 251 - > raise money.

252 - > So I kind of also learned from him that that's a viable path 253 - > that you can basically bootstrap a business and you can do it in 254 - > a very product-led way instead of you know relying on sales. 255 - > In Cobalt, we were actually product-led in the beginning, 256 - > but became very sales-led, and that meant you were always 257 - > having to do sales meetings, uh, alignment meetings, uh, customer 258 - > success meetings. 259 - > So there was a lot of meetings in the in Cobalt, and that 260 - > basically meant the flexibility you could have in your life was 261 - > very limited, right?

262 - > Because you were always required to be available for meetings and 263 - > participate in meetings. 264 - > So that was one of the big things I loved about joining 265 - > Userflow was Sebastian and I had no meetings. 266 - > Oh, we had one meeting a week, which later turned into a Slack 267 - > conversation. 268 - > And I think that was one of the key things is like we want to 269 - > build a smaller company, we don't necessarily want to hire 270 - > anybody, we want to do it in a profit-first way, we want to do 271 - > it in a way where we don't have to do a lot of meetings.

272 - > Ideally, we don't want to do a lot of sales calls and stuff 273 - > like that. 274 - > So, yeah, a complete opposite to to what we were doing uh at 275 - > Cobalt. 276 - > So, so that excited me as well. 277 - > Yeah.

278 - > So it was definitely a counter reaction and and something I was 279 - > looking for to have a more interesting, uh kind of 280 - > impactful role, but also a more flexible lifestyle. 281 - > SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the thing that people don't 282 - > understand about going up market. 283 - > Everybody thinks going up market means more revenue, but more 284 - > revenue means you're actually giving up your life. 285 - > So your business model determines your lifestyle.

286 - > So I had two SaaS companies before this, but we sold 287 - > enterprise. 288 - > So I was the one doing those meetings, doing those calls, 289 - > going to conferences, needing to be available. 290 - > Sometimes customers would text me. 291 - > You know, when you live through that, I think some people really 292 - > love that.

293 - > And or maybe it doesn't bother them. 294 - > But for me, I was building a company to free myself and my 295 - > life, but then I had built this thing that did the opposite. 296 - > It's funny because you're like, okay, now I want to build a 297 - > two-person company, but you know, counting back, I guess 10 298 - > years before that, you're like, I want to be the CEO of 299 - > Accenture, which is yeah, which is even worse. 300 - > Yeah.

301 - > So let's talk about money for a second. 302 - > You left Cobalt without cashing out. 303 - > And then user flow starts printing cash. 304 - > Yeah.

305 - > Like four and a half million or a little bit more, three people. 306 - > I think the majority of that journey was just two of you, 307 - > right? 308 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 309 - > The designer was always there, but he was freelancing, so he 310 - > was only working part-time, eventually full-time, but still 311 - > part-time.

312 - > SPEAKER_01: So that's a million and a half per employee. 313 - > So where did that money go? 314 - > Were you and Sebastian just paying yourselves huge salaries, 315 - > or were you keeping it in the company? 316 - > SPEAKER_00: We were paying ourselves huge salaries.

317 - > So I think both Sebastian and I, that's how we thought about it. 318 - > Like we want to build a business, and to make it fun, we 319 - > also have to be financially rewarded along the way. 320 - > We cannot just wait for this kind of exit. 321 - > And we felt that we could run the company pretty much just uh 322 - > the three of us.

323 - > So uh instead of going out and hiring someone, we decided we 324 - > just want to pay ourselves really high salaries so we can 325 - > live a really good life while building a great company. 326 - > And and we were very lucky that Userflow were in a market that 327 - > took off with the entire product led growth, you know, with that 328 - > user onboarding. 329 - > And we had built like something that was differentiated enough 330 - > in the market to get a lot of customers uh and in a highly 331 - > product-led way.

332 - > So yeah, we were very um quickly a highly profitable business and 333 - > uh could therefore pay ourselves very well. 334 - > SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a remarkable story. 335 - > And you know, having lived through year, like so I had two 336 - > startups before eWebinar, and I always thought I couldn't pay 337 - > myself. 338 - > I always pay myself less, pay other people more.

339 - > And I wanted this suffering because if I suffered, I felt 340 - > like that was a necessary ingredient to success. 341 - > Right. 342 - > And as you said, like a lot of VC back companies, which were 343 - > like friends around me, they also weren't getting really even 344 - > livable salaries because we were all in New York. 345 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

346 - > SPEAKER_01: And so I now know that the founders actually have 347 - > to take care of themselves first so that they can have the mental 348 - > capacity in the space to make good decisions, right? 349 - > Especially when you're bootstrapping, right? 350 - > Like if you if you are constantly in survival mode, you 351 - > can't make good decisions. 352 - > SPEAKER_00: No.

353 - > SPEAKER_01: Right. 354 - > And you have to make so many concessions in your life, 355 - > especially if you're in your 30s or your 40s, like you see all 356 - > your friends living these normal lives and you can't do that. 357 - > I think nobody really talks about that, right? 358 - > Like it's like it's like a mental baggage that you carry 359 - > that you feel like I'm a failure, I'm not good enough.

360 - > But if you can turn that around, build a successful business, and 361 - > actually start paying yourself, you can just have fun doing it. 362 - > Right. 363 - > So, how did your lifestyle change? 364 - > Right, as that revenue grew, you paid yourself, and how did your 365 - > relationship with money shift?

366 - > Because I guess this would be the first time you're you have 367 - > these huge salaries and and you have money to spend. 368 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you can say what I learned at COBOL, 369 - > which was probably a good thing, was to be frugal. 370 - > And I think both Sebastian and I are uh very frugal with money. 371 - > Uh, we also learned that further at Userflow, right?

372 - > Because we we didn't want to spend huge chunks of money uh if 373 - > we didn't see the kind of result. 374 - > So the way we did business was also very frugal and and focused 375 - > on profit. 376 - > And you can say, even though we were paying ourselves large 377 - > salaries so we could live a really good life, it didn't mean 378 - > that we, you know, were flying first class and you know uh uh 379 - > buying uh uh sports cars and stuff like that. 380 - > We were living pretty much normal lives, but we didn't have 381 - > to think about money, which was fantastic, right?

382 - > And I think that that was the primary difference where in 383 - > Kobold you always had, you know, you I didn't I wouldn't say I 384 - > had to think about money, but you know, it was not like I 385 - > could just uh buy whatever I wanted uh and and and don't 386 - > think about it, right? 387 - > So yeah, so I think it it became it created some kind of comfort, 388 - > but not in a I didn't like end up in a luxurious lifestyle or 389 - > anything of that from getting the money.

390 - > And I think actually a lot of that came from my startup 391 - > mindset, where you are very frugal in the way you think and 392 - > almost to a fault, right? 393 - > So I could probably spend a bit more on myself. 394 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, at some point, I mean, you guys were 395 - > financially comfortable, the company was profitable, growing 396 - > without you know, any other staff, you're not managing 397 - > anybody. 398 - > You know, you're not really grinding, right?

399 - > So there's no financial pressure with VCs, the product was kind 400 - > of running itself, right? 401 - > So what was driving you guys to keep going or driving you to 402 - > keep going? 403 - > And like, what were you waking up in the morning for? 404 - > Hey, I want to take a minute to talk about the thing that makes 405 - > my life and this podcast possible: my own company 406 - > eWebinar.

407 - > Here's something no one questions. 408 - > We expect every piece of content in our personal lives to be 409 - > available on demand from this podcast to our favorite TV show. 410 - > But when it comes to business webinars, whether it's demos, 411 - > training sessions, or onboarding calls, anything where a live 412 - > person has to show up and deliver content, we're still 413 - > asking people to be somewhere at a specific time on one specific 414 - > day, hoping they'll make it.

415 - > And it just doesn't scale. 416 - > The average attendance rate for a live webinar is 30 to 40 417 - > percent. 418 - > That means the majority of people who want your content 419 - > never see it. 420 - > The prospects who never see your demo don't convert, the 421 - > customers who skip onboarding don't activate.

422 - > Anyone who misses training won't adopt your product. 423 - > The EE webinar was built to solve that. 424 - > We turned any video into an interactive experience that runs 425 - > on autopilot 24-7 in every time zone. 426 - > Your audience joins when it works for them.

427 - > And our live chat lets you respond to questions in real 428 - > time or later through email. 429 - > So every question gets answered and nobody feels ignored. 430 - > It outperforms live by every metric. 431 - > Attendance, watch times, engagement, and conversion rates 432 - > are all higher.

433 - > When live delivery is no longer the bottleneck, you open up a 434 - > whole new world of opportunities, and that's the 435 - > real unlock. 436 - > You're not just replacing the webinars you're already doing, 437 - > you're finally creating all the ones you never had bandwidth 438 - > for. 439 - > The onboarding series, the product walkthrough, the sales 440 - > demo for that segment you've been meaning to go after. 441 - > Come see it for yourself.

442 - > Visit eWebinar.com to join our demo at your own time. 443 - > No salesperson required. 444 - > All right, let's get back to the episode.

445 - > SPEAKER_00: So I think the primary thing was to enhance the 446 - > product, right? 447 - > Like I was like seeing that was the power of use flow. 448 - > It's a product you can continuously enhance, uh, which 449 - > was amazing. 450 - > Cobalt was the same as like this kind of product where you can 451 - > just keep adding new features and and see how they go.

452 - > And that was the fun part, like building new stuff. 453 - > Among other things, we launched uh AI assistant pretty quickly 454 - > after GPT 4 came out. 455 - > So those kind of things were what kept us going, is like 456 - > building new stuff that could grow the company even further. 457 - > And that kind of mindset that the more revenue we got, the 458 - > higher salary we could pay ourselves, right?

459 - > So that was also a kind of like an incentive for us. 460 - > So even though we already had nice salaries, it's always nice 461 - > to you know earn earn more. 462 - > So you can say in COBOL, I didn't have that, right? 463 - > Because if I was helping growing the company, I was growing the 464 - > equity, I wasn't growing my salary, right?

465 - > And that's a much more intangible kind of value, which 466 - > when you've been doing it for seven, eight years, you kind of 467 - > learn, okay, that's Way too intangible, right? 468 - > It's not something you can easily get anything out of 469 - > unless you sell something on the secondary market, which some 470 - > founders are lucky enough to do. 471 - > But yeah, so I think that was the primary incentive. 472 - > And then the second part was how can we make this even more 473 - > flexible, right?

474 - > Stuff we started doing at Userflow. 475 - > We some would say we became kind of arrogant because things were 476 - > working so much self-service. 477 - > I started saying no to all sales calls. 478 - > Unless they had done like a trial with us.

479 - > I didn't want to, you know, speak on a call with anybody 480 - > because we would still we we did have a book um a demo form, but 481 - > we kind of moved it uh to a hidden place on the website. 482 - > And the people who would then go on our support channel asking 483 - > for uh you know a call, I would always push back and say, Have 484 - > you done the trial? 485 - > Uh because the trial is pretty self-explanatory. 486 - > Uh and if they hadn't, I said, then do please do that first and 487 - > come back if you still need a call.

488 - > And many would come back and say, Ah, we don't need a call, 489 - > we see everything now, it's very clear. 490 - > So so so sometimes that kind of arrogance helped you become more 491 - > successful in your product led motion, right? 492 - > So I think that helped us also create a more, even more 493 - > flexible lifestyle around the company, which meant I could 494 - > travel a lot more. 495 - > I had a kit uh around that same year when when we really hit it 496 - > off.

497 - > So that helped us be able to, you know, live a life where I 498 - > could travel the world, travel, or at least the US, have a kit 499 - > and and still uh run a highly successful SaaS company. 500 - > And you could have pushed all those calls to eWebinar, but we 501 - > weren't around. 502 - > SPEAKER_01: Exactly. 503 - > You're such a pragmatic person, right?

504 - > Every time I talk to you, you're just like, this is what we did. 505 - > One, two, three, we followed the system. 506 - > Like you make it sound so doable. 507 - > Yeah.

508 - > But the thing is, like building a company, three people, really 509 - > crowded market, actually, a very red ocean market with VC back 510 - > competitors. 511 - > It doesn't seem like it could be as smooth as you make the story 512 - > sounds. 513 - > Like, were there parts that were hard? 514 - > Like, were there moments where you felt like maybe this 515 - > wouldn't work, or you you questioned if you were on the 516 - > right path?

517 - > SPEAKER_00: No, I don't because we were seeing like continuous 518 - > growth. 519 - > I don't think we ever like let's say we lost a loot a large 520 - > customer, right? 521 - > Uh we would of course have concerns. 522 - > Are we gonna lose more large customers, right?

523 - > We would always have that. 524 - > But was a large contract at that, like what was the range of 525 - > the contract value? 526 - > I think our largest contract was around 60k or something. 527 - > So it's not insignificant, it's pretty big.

528 - > No, no, and and uh we we might have lost one or two of those 529 - > where we are like, okay, ouch, that was a big customer to lose. 530 - > If we had customer success, would we have kept them, you 531 - > know, like more hands-on customer success? 532 - > But then on the other hand, if we had had that, we wouldn't be 533 - > able to live that flexible lifestyle, right? 534 - > And and be highly product-led.

535 - > And and and I think what we saw at time is like we were able to 536 - > get new customers at a rate, so it doesn't hurt so much that we 537 - > lose uh one of these customers. 538 - > We weren't like the customer saturation. 539 - > It was not like we had one or two very large customers, we had 540 - > a lot of like mid-size and small customers, right? 541 - > And and in that way we were not so vulnerable to one customer 542 - > journey, even if it was a big customer.

543 - > But of course, that hurts. 544 - > It always hurts when a large customer leaves, and and you 545 - > always uh kind of think, should we change something? 546 - > Should we uh should we do something? 547 - > So I think we did have experiences like that, but in 548 - > overall, we mostly saw success in what we did.

549 - > And I think the reason for that was that we stayed very close to 550 - > our customers. 551 - > We were always the ones on support, right? 552 - > Because we were a small team. 553 - > We were always using our own product to see how can we make 554 - > it smarter, how can we make it better, so we would discover the 555 - > new features and how they should be built before our customers 556 - > would.

557 - > So we were always like one step ahead uh when it came to like 558 - > building the product. 559 - > We we just felt that everything was working and it kept on 560 - > working. 561 - > So it sounds easy, but I also think it's a good mindset to 562 - > have that it is easy. 563 - > And I think that's actually the biggest blocker for many 564 - > companies who want to be product-led, is they don't have 565 - > that mindset.

566 - > They always think like uh we can't do that because X, Y, C, 567 - > right? 568 - > We can't have a free trial because of security is an excuse 569 - > I've heard, right? 570 - > Uh like of course you can. 571 - > Like, if you cannot have that, then I don't uh your security is 572 - > terrible if you if you cannot do a free trial because of 573 - > security, right?

574 - > SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the unique thing about you and 575 - > Sebastian was you are so lifestyle focused. 576 - > And you you understood that everything has a trade-off. 577 - > Yeah, right. 578 - > Of course, every company can go upmarket, but what is the 579 - > trade-off, right?

580 - > Like how many people do I have to hire for how much money? 581 - > How much money do I have to raise? 582 - > And you've got customer success, right? 583 - > So you were willing to have that trade-off for the lifestyle that 584 - > you were living, and and that's awesome, right?

585 - > So the beamer deal, who you know you eventually sold to, I guess 586 - > this conversation happened through a conference, right, uh, 587 - > at in Dublin. 588 - > And but you weren't really looking to sell at the time. 589 - > You said you were just ignoring like some acquisition email. 590 - > So what was different about this particular company or this deal 591 - > that made you say, okay, like let's start having this 592 - > conversation?

593 - > SPEAKER_00: Because we were paying ourselves uh really well 594 - > and and and we knew we had a good growth in the company and 595 - > we were living already a flexible lifestyle. 596 - > So we didn't have like that pressure to sell or uh or do 597 - > anything. 598 - > We were not like actively uh looking, but we did had have 599 - > acquisition offers also before the beamer acquisition offer. 600 - > Most of those were in pure stock, which didn't really 601 - > interest us because if you sell for pure stock, you basically 602 - > just end up working for somebody else, and then you have to rely 603 - > on them to um build a successful company, right?

604 - > So what the beamer deal gave us was more cash on table and and 605 - > an opportunity for us to also not be operationally involved. 606 - > Uh we were operationally involved for for a short while, 607 - > but then left the operations later, right? 608 - > And and I think that was the kind of deal we we were 609 - > interested in. 610 - > And then of course, also at a multiple that we thought 611 - > justified us uh not giving up on our nice salaries, right?

612 - > So we had to kind of look at the math to see how many years do we 613 - > have to work to earn the same. 614 - > And and and then we we made that calculation and decided this is 615 - > a good deal. 616 - > Uh let's do it. 617 - > And then the other positive thing was that they wanted to 618 - > continue the brand as it is and actually build further on that 619 - > brand and and the product.

620 - > So that was also super nice that that we were uh giving it to 621 - > somebody who actually wanted to continue the product and not 622 - > just close it down, as you see with with larger companies, when 623 - > they buy something, they they often close down the product or 624 - > it disappears. 625 - > SPEAKER_01: So, what was it like to hand over something you built 626 - > that was so hugely successful with such high velocity? 627 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I uh it was hard.

628 - > Uh I mean, first of all, when you sell it, you're just uh 629 - > you're so happy, uh it's great, right? 630 - > Like it's a good payday. 631 - > Uh but then uh of course it's hard to give away uh a product 632 - > that you've been working on and thinking about every day for the 633 - > last uh years, you know, had many kind of future dreams of 634 - > what should happen with the product, right? 635 - > And now you're leaving that ownership to somebody else to 636 - > decide if if what's gonna happen with the product.

637 - > So that was of course uh hard. 638 - > I'm happy that we didn't have to stay operationally involved for 639 - > for too long because I think it's really hard as a founder to 640 - > not and and that was you know going back to what happened at 641 - > Cobalt, it's hard for a founder to stay out of the decisions, to 642 - > not be impactful in in what happens. 643 - > Uh, but when you're giving the ownership and controls to 644 - > somebody else, you need to do that. 645 - > And sometimes it's easier just to get out.

646 - > Uh, and I think I learned that at Cobalt. 647 - > I and and that's the same I learned that at Useflow, it's 648 - > kind of like it's easier just to get out of the operations and 649 - > not be involved, and then let let the people make the 650 - > decisions without you uh trying to influence them yourself. 651 - > SPEAKER_01: So you had a pretty significant exit. 652 - > How did it feel for you when that wire hit the bank?

653 - > SPEAKER_00: So I think because we had already had good salaries 654 - > uh for for years before that. 655 - > I mean, it it is of course life-changing. 656 - > It meant that I basically don't have to work for the rest of my 657 - > life unless I want to. 658 - > So that that's of course life-changing.

659 - > But because we had already, you know, had paid ourselves good 660 - > salary, it wasn't like a huge change. 661 - > I I had already, you know, lived a life where I was traveling uh 662 - > the US and the world, uh living a good, flexible lifestyle. 663 - > Selling the company just meant that I could be even more 664 - > flexible, uh spend even more time with my family, which is 665 - > something um I think was was one of the most positive sides was 666 - > now like with usable, I could definitely spend more time with 667 - > my family than I could with cobalt, but now I could spend 668 - > even more time with them, and and um yeah, and now I have a 669 - > second kid, so that's it makes it even greater, right?

670 - > But but yeah, so so yeah, it's I think it w it was a great day, 671 - > but uh it wasn't like I was already living a good life, uh, 672 - > so it wasn't like changing my life significantly. 673 - > SPEAKER_01: So now you're in this post-exit chapter, you're 674 - > consulting companies on product-led growth, sharing your 675 - > knowledge, traveling, like you said, spending time with family. 676 - > Yeah, you you're basically retired. 677 - > So, what does a typical week look like for you?

678 - > You know, like does it feel like you finally achieve this nirvana 679 - > of like ultimate freedom? 680 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, I am uh still I'm not fully retired because 681 - > I'm consulting with PLG, of course. 682 - > SPEAKER_01: But only because you want to. 683 - > SPEAKER_00: Because I want to.

684 - > Um, but yeah, I I was uh retired for for uh at least uh one and a 685 - > half years or after we sold or something or one year. 686 - > What I learned, and I actually learned this back in Cobalt 687 - > already, so in 2018, before I left Cobalt, I actually went on 688 - > a sabbatical for six months because I was worked out, I had 689 - > worked way too much and it was hurting like relations and all 690 - > this kind of stuff, right? 691 - > So it was like I needed a break to realize that the company can 692 - > live without me.

693 - > I think that's one thing I realized. 694 - > And I can live a life where I'm not working and I'm actually 695 - > happy. 696 - > I'm traveling, I'm experiencing new stuff, I'm learning new 697 - > stuff, reading books. 698 - > I think I learned that from that six-month sabbatical that I 699 - > don't need to work to be happy.

700 - > So, so with Userflow, it already started like the flexible. 701 - > That's also a part of why I joined Userflow is like, okay, 702 - > now I can have an even more flexible lifestyle where I don't 703 - > have to work so much. 704 - > Um and then when we exited, it was amazing to not work at all 705 - > and and live this kind of sabbatical lifestyle where we 706 - > just travel. 707 - > We decided uh my family and I went decided to go to some 708 - > further away places like Australia and French Polnisha 709 - > and this kind of stuff, right?

710 - > So you could you could go a bit further away and not be in the 711 - > same time zone as the US. 712 - > So I think for me it was not like I missed working, I really 713 - > just kept on enjoying my life. 714 - > I I hear a lot of founders like they sell the company and then 715 - > they have to get quickly back to building a new company because 716 - > they kind of miss working or having a purpose. 717 - > And I think for me that the purpose was just, you know, work 718 - > doesn't have to be there to have a purpose.

719 - > You can do exercise, you can enjoy time with your family, you 720 - > can travel. 721 - > And I and I think that's part of what I learned from from that 722 - > sabbatical back in 2018 is there are equally important things in 723 - > life uh than uh doing work. 724 - > SPEAKER_01: I mean, now with all this cool AI stuff happening and 725 - > the world is growing at an exponential pace, there's all 726 - > this new technology coming up. 727 - > Are you having conversations with yourself at all about 728 - > whether you're gonna start building again, or is this just 729 - > a completely new chapter of your life where you want to just 730 - > focus on you, your family, and and just have fun?

731 - > SPEAKER_00: No, I'm I'm definitely staying connected to 732 - > what's going on. 733 - > Uh, I think I need I I want to do that because uh it's also 734 - > just to stay up to date on what's going on. 735 - > I think even if I'm not gonna do a new startup, it's uh you need 736 - > to be aware of what's happening with AI because it's gonna 737 - > impact uh everybody in the world, what you can do and and 738 - > how the world's gonna function in the future. 739 - > So it's important to stay up to date on what's going on.

740 - > So I am playing with with AI tools, and then I I am thinking 741 - > sometimes maybe we should do you know one more startup. 742 - > Sebastian and I often talk about it. 743 - > Uh, and especially when you see these like high, high growth 744 - > stories where it's a lot of it is product led, right? 745 - > It's uh lovable is product led, Gen Spark is product-led.

746 - > It's these highly product-led motions, and that's amazing that 747 - > that uh this combination of AI and product led is really 748 - > kicking it. 749 - > And and and I think Sebastian and I would fit perfectly in 750 - > that world. 751 - > But I also know that once you start on a on a company, it is 752 - > gonna be a lot of work, especially in the beginning, to 753 - > build the initial audience, build the first customers, get 754 - > them to use the product, find that product market fit.

755 - > Uh, and it's not just a walk in the park. 756 - > We were lucky with Userflow, but even Userflow, you know, did 757 - > take some work in the beginning. 758 - > So, so yeah, I think I always have that in the back of my mind 759 - > that yes, it's everything is very exciting now, but it it's 760 - > also gonna take a lot of work to actually run a company. 761 - > And right now I'm much happier doing more exercise, enjoying 762 - > time with my family, and these kind of things.

763 - > So, so I don't think I'm ready to do anything right now. 764 - > SPEAKER_01: So, when you think about your purpose, right? 765 - > What is your purpose now versus you know what it was before and 766 - > and like how has it shifted over time, if at all? 767 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, purpose, it's a hard word.

768 - > What is your purpose, right? 769 - > Uh I think there's definitely a chase for financial freedom has 770 - > always been there now when you have it. 771 - > You don't have to think about it. 772 - > And I think many founders actually struggle when they 773 - > achieve if that was the ultimate goal and they achieve it, they 774 - > struggle with what's gonna be my next goal.

775 - > Uh right. 776 - > But for me, achieving financial freedom was just a sub goal to 777 - > the ultimate goal, which is then I can do whatever I want, right? 778 - > Like I can uh exercise, I can spend time with my family, I can 779 - > travel when I want, these kind of things, right? 780 - > For me, that's at least for now, more than enough to enjoy life.

781 - > So I think that's that's my purpose right now, is just uh 782 - > travel as much as possible, spend time with family and uh 783 - > keep on learning new stuff uh and exercise. 784 - > I think exercise is very underrated. 785 - > In I think many startup founders, and I I know I did at 786 - > Cobalt, stop doing exercise when they are building companies and 787 - > you become super unhealthy, and it's not good for you or for the 788 - > company because you actually think better when you're 789 - > healthy.

790 - > And so it's just one of those things that now I have the 791 - > freedom to do that much more again. 792 - > I I'm much happier. 793 - > SPEAKER_01: And what matters most to you now, like that maybe 794 - > you didn't care about before? 795 - > SPEAKER_00: I didn't have a family before, so I didn't uh 796 - > family is definitely family is definitely the most important 797 - > thing uh for me now.

798 - > And then uh yeah, as I said, traveling and and exercise and 799 - > and that kind of freedom to do whatever you want is is highly 800 - > important. 801 - > SPEAKER_01: So, how do you define success today, after that 802 - > entire journey, and like as compared to when you first moved 803 - > to San Francisco in 2013? 804 - > SPEAKER_00: I think ultimately it's it's actually the same in 805 - > some ways. 806 - > It is, and I achieved it, right?

807 - > I achieved the freedom to be able to do what I want. 808 - > Uh and I think that was also the goal. 809 - > When I initially started Cobalt together with my uh three 810 - > friends, it was also what we were pursuing, right? 811 - > Of course, we wanted to build a great company, become, you know, 812 - > build a large company, but but ultimately there was also this 813 - > pursuit of financial freedom and be able to basically be able to 814 - > do what you want, right?

815 - > So I think back then it was the success criteria, and today it's 816 - > the success criteria. 817 - > You can say maybe even in Accenture, it was also the 818 - > success criteria to become a CEO. 819 - > And that back then I had like an idea that that would mean that 820 - > you would have financial freedom. 821 - > But actually, what I've learned over the years is if you are CEO 822 - > of a large company, you might have financial means to do 823 - > everything you want, but you have no freedom because you're 824 - > uh working all the time.

825 - > Uh and that's not success to me. 826 - > SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. 827 - > Well, Esmin, thank you so much for this conversation today. 828 - > SPEAKER_00: Thank you.

829 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for spending time with me. 830 - > Real quick, if what we talked about today resonated with you, 831 - > the best thing you can do to pay it forward is to share it with 832 - > someone you think would enjoy it too. 833 - > The only way this podcast grows is by word of mouth. 834 - > Whether that's a review, a post, or even a text to a friend, it 835 - > would mean the world to me and would help me keep this podcast 836 - > going.

837 - > Hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. 838 - > And head over to profitlet.fm for show notes. 839 - > If you want to connect or share feedback, I'd love to hear from 840 - > you.

841 - > Find me at melissaquan.com. 842 - > That's M-E-L-I-S-S-A-K-W-A-N.com.

843 - > Thanks for listening. 844 - > Bye now.