The Price for €20M in 4 Years | Chris Erler, S3E4

Today's guest is Chris Urler, partner at Erler Ventures and co-founder and former COO of ComX, a B2B sales enablement company he bootstrapped when he was only 28 to 20 million euros in revenue in just four years. He sold a private equity at multiples he never imagined, stayed on to scale the company to 140 people, and then watched it go through insolvency a couple years later. In this episode, we get into what that kind of velocity does to you as a person, how his body literally broke down from stress he didn't even register, and how he's applying his learnings and experience to help founders avoid burnout and build a company that's ready to scale without losing themselves along the way.

If you've ever built something that started taking more from you than it gave, this one's for you. Welcome to another episode of ProfitLed. I'm your host, Melissa Kwan, co-founder of eWebinar. This season, we're exploring the intersection of passion, profit, and purpose, and how those things change as founders evolve and come into financial success.

Let's get started. Chris, you said you always knew that you wanted to do things differently. What was a version of success that was handed to you growing up? And what did you mean by differently?

I think the thing that differentiated me from others and the trait that I can see with a lot of different entrepreneurs is curiosity. So I always grew up like with never accepting the status quo and trying to understand why are things, why do they work and how to basically change things, not taking them as granted. So I was very lucky growing up like with parents that always gave me everything I wanted and answering all the questions I had because I was very curious. Like my dad, for example, uh told me a story, I'm not doing the pilot license.

Actually, I always want to become a pilot. But the first time sitting in a plane, I looked outside and wondered why the plane sound not like doing like a bird, right? So I always ask things and they sounded really stupid to a lot of people. And I see that trade with a lot of entrepreneurs that never accept the status quo, always ask why do things work and do they need to be like they are today?

And I think that's basic DNA that would describe myself because that's what I'm doing all my life, asking myself how to do things differently and to understand things also. So, what drove you to start your first company? I don't and I don't mean the business case, the the personal reasons underneath it. Were you chasing something?

I always asked myself, uh beginning my 20s, what's my goal in life or in my career? And there was the option to go a corporate career ladder. I did mechanical engineering in Austria, I did business afterwards, I worked at General Electric, and working the corporate, it became very clear to me being a small wheel in the machine and getting credit from my superior is not what I thrive or what I like in life. So for me, it was very important to have an impact like also on society and on the economy.

And that was a very in my journey, that's when I designed a very high-level goal. I want to be a positive impact or create a positive impact in society. I know that sounds extremely high-level. I had no clue what I'm doing afterwards.

I went to study in Copenhagen with CBS, and then I met my co-founder, and then I found out okay, actually, finding a use case, applying it, and solving problems for customers, or in our case, it was CEOs, actually is a lot of fun. And then I learned I got a lot of energy out of solving problems for really big business problems, like for CEOs or business people. And that's the vessel I found in my 20s, and I still loved and enjoyed doing that. So in 2018, you quit your job, you had 10k in the bank, collecting unemployment while building your MVP with your with your co-founders.

You were three mechanical engineers, no startup experience. So at that point, what did making it and success look like to you in your head? I mean, I was the only one who had no startup experience. The other guys tried and failed before.

For me, it was the first time. Basically, I can break it down to the lean startup book from Eric Reese. We really implemented that book. So build measure learn, and that's the big advantage of building Bootstrap, right?

So we basically never uh built something before we haven't validated it on the market. That meant basically we sold it to customers. And of course, the product was a sales product, uh, the pitch was not the most difficult one. Uh, we want to bring you more money and uh generating elite.

So that was pretty easy and simple. And I think we were just likable as a founding team. We were just uh three hungry guys, and just people trusting us in the beginning and building the first use cases. That was uh the thing that brought the needle to move.

And yeah, that's the short story. But did you have some big audacious goal, or were you guys just like, let's build something and see what happens? Absolutely. So we had big goals, first of all, it was financial freedom.

And the second was creating something helpful for clients. And that sounds very broad, but in the beginning, we never had that big idea. So we never were chasing something, and we always went with the market and with the customers. And I think that was that was part of the success because we simply found out, and you never know in the beginning, that no one really solved the problem that we solved for.

So creating a business where we could design our own lives, having the freedom to travel. We were one of the first online businesses where people could work remotely. And once we achieved that financial freedom, of course, the BHUC, our big Harry Audit's goal, it evolved and it developed. And we became then more and more thinking about what's the more the bigger vision that we had.

But in the beginning, we were very much like uh down to earth, yeah, let's not overcomplicate things. We basically you need to make money with without money, nothing moves. And that that was our first year goal. And when you guys were starting, people told you it wouldn't work, right?

Your professor told you to get a job, people said your emails were illegal. Yeah. Right? So, what kept you going when so many people around you was telling you to stop?

We simply saw there's a huge gap and problem on the market, and we simply talk to our clients. And there's another great book, actually, that we implemented. It's uh the two major books for early stage uh founders. That's the mom desk book.

It tells you if you pitch your mom an idea or your idea, she will always say, Yeah, it's a great idea. And she will lie to you not to hurt your feelings. So we simply try to find questions open and to really find out what's the real need and the real struggle and pain point of our clients. And the pain point was so big, and the money they spent on really stupid things, like not stupid, like they were just struggling, hiring salespeople, spending hundreds of thousands of euros for wrong high and head of sales, and so on.

These were super big pain problems, and no one solved them. And we were like, okay, that there's a mismatch. Like on one end, people were complaining about cold email, everything is illegal, the idea is not sexy enough. What's the major change?

And the idea that's a huge problem on the market. And we all started, or like Phil and me, we started innovation entrepreneurship. We just learned, okay, just validate the problems. So we always stick to that, and we basically trusted each other as co-founder.

And I think the trust between the co-founder and really trusting the methodology that's helped us just overcoming that initial resistance that we had. I mean, I think the wildest part of your story is it worked on the first try, at least your first try. And you guys found traction, like ComX found found traction really fast. You grew 125% year over year.

20 million euros ARR, I guess in four years. I mean, that's the kind of velocity people can only dream about, right? Most founders, I mean, me included, take years to find product market fit. So, what does it feel like to hit that like on your first try?

I always I'm careful not to get now validation of it's always can work like this. So it feels also a bit humbling because it creates also a certain kind of pressure, and I'm very much aware of it. So I think there's always if there's things are changing, or if there's a crisis, you can always uh take it to good advantage out of that. I wanted to start another B2B company, I think it was last year.

And the moment we started it, one CTO had access to the VC market, and we simply saw so many new startups solving that problem with recruit tech and so on. So it does feel great. On the other side, I felt like okay, now everything has changed on the market, so I'm more and more shifting towards that consulting and also working with AI because what else do you want to do? Because in the software and SaaS market, you can't do it.

So the feeling is, of course, was very lucky. Of course, I could create some money and my own holding company, and just basically it's a life-changing event. So on one side, it's it's really fun. On the other side, retiring with 37 is a bit too early.

And of course, I'm thinking what could be the next big thing. So it creates a certain pressure that I'm very much aware of. And I also I gave myself since my exit a lot of time. So I just rethought about my own P-Hack, and it's not money, it's actually impact.

So I what I'm seeking right now is actually working with great other founders and almost creating like a little factory for new startups where I can just work with others together because I love doing it. And I'm in a very fortunate place not to need to make the next big thing. Where on the other side, that's two sides in my personality right now. I'm also like, why not try?

And failing fast. So I haven't had a big failure, but I'm just waiting for it because it needs to be there. And I'm just aware I don't want to be afraid because if you're afraid you don't take risks and you are not trying, and that's the worst thing you can do. So that's this very humbling part of myself and the very browsing of myself.

I'm like, okay, why even bother and going into the hustle and the front lines? So I'm rather deciding for the second part because I feel with AI, with cloud code, everyone is doing it right now. It's just like, you know, uh at the candy store, everyone is doing it. So the mode is pretty low in many different ideas and spaces.

But I'm still like I'm very hungry trying out with different people and new businesses also. I mean, when it was growing so fast, I mean, at least it reads like or it sounds like it was just happening to you, right? What was that like emotionally? Like, did you have to like keep your ego in check and be like, wow, like the this is the first time I'm building something and it's just happening?

That's a very, very good question. I think it all happened so fast and the pressure was on that we constantly saw the risk also in the business. So we were very much aware of it. And I was leading the customer success department, so the delivery department, so we knew the pain points and we knew the struggles that we had.

Because part of our success was a very successful go-to-market engine with ads that were like crazy well performing, and then the delivery was always struggling. So I was very humbled because I knew the challenges with our clients and I knew that's not sustainable what we're doing. So, of course, we had a very high business growth, and the churn was always a big problem. So, when I found the measurements how to how to tackle that churn, it felt like very completing.

So, that of course I was really proud. But on the same time, there was always this stress level. Once the sales engine doesn't run, the churn will eat us alive. Yeah, so there was constantly, constantly stress on, constantly.

And this was the really the bad thing about our business model. This constant attention, constant people, and I was leading the whole thing, just definitely created a huge pressure and also led to a final burnout then after the exit, right? Because everything changed then suddenly. So it did feel great, it did feel very humbling, I feel very challenged at the same time, and it was a cocktail of emotions, right?

And I was reading loads of books of like how to uh sustain a high mode of stress, how to create a good work-life balance. So I learned a lot about myself also. I learned about my boundaries. I'm very lucky and happy that I did in my 20s, in my early 30s, but it caused I think end 30s, beginning 40s, you would not do a very fast-scaling business like this with so much stress.

And yeah, so it was a great time. I'm very grateful for that experience. So it was almost like it was amazing, but it didn't feel stable. Yeah, 100%.

So you guys had a lot of profit, right? 56% you beta, like no investors to answer to. Did you guys all pay yourself well? Like, how did your lifestyle change as you guys started doing well and money was coming in?

My lifestyle did not change at all because I asked myself, I I tried to spend money, I did it. I didn't like it. I didn't like the people I met at the hotels I went to. I didn't I never bought a Lamborghini or something.

Um it's really it doesn't give me energy. Like I'm uh maybe because I'm from a farmer's family in Austria and very connected to nature, I'm simply not a guy who flashes with money. It doesn't give me any energy. What it gave me, and that's the biggest thing for me that can happen in life, is freedom.

And that's a really good book that I read five years ago when we spent the first like when we paid out the first dividends, which was a really great feeling. It was like, you know, imagine you put something bootstrapped on unemployment money, and then like three years later you buy yourself dividends or pay yourself dividends, was a great feeling, and I asked myself, okay, how can I make sense of this great feeling? And I don't like to have like an ego overthrow myself, so it was very aware of it.

And this book is called Psychology of Money. And psychology of money is only talks about how great it is to have freedom, have to be healthy, and to be, I would almost say, like a real human or free. And I already started like meditation beginning trendies, and of course, that all like is part of my journey because it helped me also to create the freedom very early, to not restrict myself also with the first start of a business idea, to work with it and so on. So I did not change so much.

I felt the freedom is something I really want to maintain, and it's the highest good or like the biggest value that's very important to me in life, and staying healthy and like uh deciding when I want to work, not reporting to anyone. I think that's the biggest gift, and I can be very grateful for that also. I will always. And what was the thing that was getting you out of bed in the morning to keep going, keep pushing?

Because you were making money, but it was also really stressful, right? So, what was that, where did that drive come from? And and what was your, I guess, purpose at the time? Yeah, 100%.

So there are two sides of the same coin. One side is the dopamine kick. So once sales runs and the bank account just creates money and like just as black numbers black numbers in in very very high black numbers, it's dopamine kick. Very simple.

You we celebrated it as a team, uh, we had a very great team culture, and it's almost like you are constantly in a rush, constantly in uh in a high feeling state of high, right? The other part, of course, is it's like very dangerous, like just following the dopamine, right? Because at some point the ego grows and then you believe you're better than the others. It's basically ego.

And if you're not careful enough in fast-moving environments like in SARS, in sales, and marketing, where there's no mode, and we always were aware of this, that our mode is almost zero. And the mode became zero with AI becoming better and better, and people understanding it as a lot of money to be made of in the German market, in a very conservative market, right? Uh, this was the second part of the of the coin, second side of the coin, right? And we constantly ask ourselves, so what is actually the vision of it?

And the vision, we had really great mentors that helped us just to define the mission, develop it further, that also led to selling the whole thing to private equity, because you don't sell a company to private equity if there's not a bigger vision in place. And the vision that wasn't something that we that we always knew it was, and we formulated it. So that felt really great. During all of this growth, right, your body was literally breaking down.

And you wrote about this in your first SubSac article, which I loved. You ended up at a hospital answering Slack messages while your fiance just watched you, your spine had been deteriorating, and you hadn't even registered this pain. I know you touched on some of the stress, but what was happening in your business that was putting you under that much stress? And what was that narrative?

What was the story you were telling yourself to make that level of pain normal? Hey, I want to take a minute to talk about the thing that makes my life and this podcast possible, my own company eWebinar. Here's something no one questions. We expect every piece of content in our personal lives to be available on demand from this podcast to our favorite TV show.

But when it comes to business webinars, whether it's demos, training sessions, or onboarding calls, anything where a live person has to show up and deliver content, we're still asking people to be somewhere at a specific time on one specific day, hoping they'll make it. And it just doesn't scale. The average attendance rate for a live webinar is 30 to 40%. That means the majority of people who want your content never see it.

Prospects who never see your demo don't convert. Customers who skip onboarding don't activate. Anyone who misses training won't adopt your product. The e webinar was built to solve that.

We turn any video into an interactive experience that runs on autopilot 24-7 in every time zone. Your audience joins when it works for them. And our live chat lets you respond to questions in real time or later through email. So every question gets answered and nobody feels ignored.

It outperforms live by every metric. Attendance, watch times, engagement, and conversion rates are all higher. When live delivery is no longer the bottleneck, you open up a whole new world of opportunities, and that's the real unlock. You're not just replacing the webinars you're already doing, you're finally creating all the ones you never had bandwidth for.

The onboarding series, the product walkthrough, the sales demo for that segment you've been meaning to go after. Come see it for yourself. Visit eWebinar.com to join our demo at your own time.

No salesperson required. All right, let's get back to the episode. So once we loaded the business with loads of debt with a private equity deal, there was a completely new component, and there was a private equity fund and a shareholder that you can't fail as private equity. And we knew that also.

So being in the middle ground of like a business, I mean, you need to imagine, just imagine like my situation. You build a business bootstrap, you're on you're under unemployment money, you grow the scale the whole thing, but where you have the greatest time, and I really enjoy it because I love to be an operator and build processes. Suddenly you're not an operator anymore. Suddenly you're someone working on the business and bleasing shareholders, and same time having employees that are not buying in the whole private activity story, right?

So there were so many things moving that I was I really underestimated that, and it was a huge, I would say, uh Wookie mistake. I didn't have a mentor that told me, hey, watch out. We also didn't look for one, to be honest. So this was basically one of the mistakes we did.

If you do an exit that big, you become your ego gets pushed. Like also you can do as much meditation you want. Of course, your ego gets pushed. And that was my blind side, not challenging myself because my gut feeling new, this is not me.

I don't want to do that. And for me, I'm a person, the why needs to be very clear to me. The why was not clear because I was so real between the different shareholders, and that crushed me basically. So, not so many things changed because I always asked myself, so we were under stress for four or five years before, when building the whole thing, it was much more stressful, like feeling like okay, the numbers sometimes were not right and generated was very high and so on.

But this grushed me completely because my why was not there. And I learned a lot about myself, so I'm very grateful also to understand when my Y is not pH, I simply should not do it because I would burn out. So that's the short answer, I think. But you felt like you had to please the investors because you still had shares in the company?

Or was it like was there some sort of earnout that was tied to your exit? So you needed to have like, I guess, milestones you needed to hit. Well, we were still 49% shareholder, of course, and you don't again the bubble is very small in Germany, the private equity bubble. So of course, you what kind of story do you want to tell to have to start one of the biggest B2B sales, and then like having the business not working?

So of course the pressure was high, of course, and the pressure we put ourselves in, and we really like the private equity uh founders like of the fund, the founders of the fund which also believed in us and put loads of trust in us. There's of course a money uh component but also a trust component. And we simply like the menu statement of the private equity fund. It's like digitalizing medium-sized businesses in the German-speaking market do struggle, it's the backbone of the economy.

And I totally buy into that. And of course, there are a lot of shareholders where we just wanted to make the whole thing success. So the pressure was definitely on on the personal side, also on the business side. As an entrepreneur, of course, there's always risk, right?

And we didn't have any earnout in it. Uh so we could have just walked away. But I was also like, okay, in my 30s, why would I walk away now from a business that I've built before? So it was a very complex scenario where it was never black and white.

And we put ourselves, of course, under pressure until I hit this product component where for me it was clear that's not a sustainable way forward, unfortunately. So looking back on that experience, like what do you think you were telling yourself so that your body didn't register this physical pain? So that was basically dopamine, I think. That was still on.

Like there was this moment also where I felt okay, the pressure from shareholders and from the team in between, this is not a pleasant feeling. This is like something I really hated. And there was no other option than moving on. So the things that I told myself is like, yeah, we're gonna make it better.

And basically, that was not really a plan B at this moment. Yeah. And we as co-founder team we held together. Like once once this was shaking, I think it shook me also.

Because there was this foundation that always carried me to the next level. It was gone basically. And then of course, like it's just about running a marathon and pushing yourself to the last meters, but the goal was moved back further and further. So I think this is just about how burnout is created.

You just keep on pushing yourself because there's no plan B except reaching the final goal. Once we saw that doesn't work, and we basically decided to make the endpoint of us being CEOs, it felt of course much more relieving and better. So a few years ago, 2022, you sold Majority Stake to the private equity company and multiples you never imagined, you know, starting with you know 10K unemployment. Can you describe what that moment was like for you?

Like what was it like to really have that financial success after a few years and very short years of building this company? It sounds like crazy. And suddenly that's also something I didn't expect. Suddenly I had a second job I did not really enjoy.

And that was it sounds very stupid, I know, but it was basically having my own holding and manage that capital and that money. So in the first moment, it's unreal. You you can't even cope with once it hits the bank account. And then the responsibility starts, and it's a lot of work, also.

So it's a lot of responsibility, a lot of work, and it's almost like a second job in terms of like you could also employ people that run that fund. That was a completely completely different experience, how to decide what kind of risk portfolio I have, what kind of investments I want to do. It felt also like that's a big responsibility, but also once I've built the first basic foundations of it, it felt also very completing. So it's almost like a completely job description.

And I also learned, like, for me, the why on it, making out of money more money, like the profit, just like creating more profit. This is not something I enjoy. So I'm a very bad banker. Um I think I'm I'm a better entrepreneur, and I rather look into okay, what kind of problems I can solve for my target audience.

It did it feel unreal. It did not, like for good friends who also didn't actually told me once when people make a lot of money, you feel the real intention and know the real character of that person. I think for me that's 100% true, also. Like I just became karma, I enjoyed my freedom, I did not flash anything around, I built my basic foundation, not basically building legacy that was important for me, also.

And yeah, that's exactly what happened, I think. Like, what was it about the shift from founder to employee that you didn't enjoy? Because you were still building the same company. You were still servicing the same customers.

So why did you feel like something shifted or maybe the why shifted? So you are not the sole responsible person anymore. And the private equity fund might believe differently, but that's just a different cap table. And when a cap table changes, responsibility automatically changes.

Because if I move from like a third of the shares to like uh sixth of the shares, of course, my perception of responsibility changes, right? So that's the biggest change of perception. And there you are, I Sunday had an employment contract, so I didn't have the freedom anymore that I had before. Like before that, we had a freedom, completely freedom, what we do with the team, what kind of team events we do.

So it just became simply became more rigid and more corporate, you could almost call it. And that's important also for fund because the fund needs to resell the company. So you need to professionalize the whole thing. And I think that was the biggest change.

So I guess shortly after that, maybe a couple years after that, the economy shifted, the European economy shifted. Customers' budget froze, competition caught up, like as you were talking about earlier that you were afraid of. Comex actually went through insolvency in 2024, right? And I guess was resold in an asset deal.

So what does it feel like for you to watch the thing you built get acquired, get inflated, and then become insolvent? And like, how do you hold all those realities at the same time? Yeah, it's very, it's of course very difficult. And you need to understand also like the private equity game, variable interest rates, and then the debt on the business.

And of course, it's not an easy thing to watch. So for us, it was very important that the company continues, which it did at the end. So basically, we sold it with a lot of customers, more than 200 customers. And it feels very weird because on one end you have like this company which creates still millions in revenue, and on the other hand, you have a debt against it that's just too high.

And it just teaches me how fast things can change and how fast basically business and it's always like you know, a business at the end is revenue, and then cost on the other end. If the cost is too high, it's just like at some point game over. And that was the case, and we could do another process of like selling a company, stressed uh selling a company. So it was also actually a quite interesting experience.

And I think we did the whole MBA program on steroids within like four years. So looking back, of course, in the moment it was very stressful. On the same side, I knew we had a great team, we did everything correctly. Also, the private activity fund was extremely helpful, and we did the full process successfully, so we sold the company to another strategist, and he just continued the full business model.

Uh, all the employees they were actually moved over, all the customers. So we were very proud on it, and then we decided not to continue with that competitor because we didn't fit into the cap table. So at the end, it was uh a very intense moment and time because emotionally it's like you know, people see insolvency and think like, okay, and especially in Germany, they're probably not like in the US, understand, okay, doing a distress cell sometimes can happen. The way how you deal with failure, and it officially it is a failure, it's completely different in uh Europe than it is in the US.

So I think as an entrepreneur, it's it's an important experience that you're doing, that you can do. And I think the more you learn from it, or the more the more I learn from it, the more I actually could extend my skill set. So I know how it feels like I know also now what to do in that moment, not to panic, to ask that great people, great lawyers that you can work together with. And having gone through the process just gives you a sense of security, and you also lose a little bit the fear of the unknown, I would say.

So looking back, of course, duff times make you strong, and I just need to underline this. Also, if it was a very painful process, like for a lot of shareholders, I learned a lot from it. How do you think Europeans see it different than the US? I don't know where it comes from.

I'm also originally Austrian, but maybe it's because there were a lot of wars lost. Uh, maybe it's a cultural thing, also. I think failure is often seen with like really complete dissolving who you are, and like really it's almost combined like with uh having no money and just like living on the streets. I think, especially in Germany, there's this connection on it, and there's this shame about it, which I don't 100% understand, but there is this shame about it.

And when I went through it, it was a quite interesting process because I didn't have these strong feelings because I mean I simply could understand, and I knew exactly why it happened. So it was a combination of different things, right? Me looking at insolvencies, it changed completely. I like I always I always looked up to the ES, honestly, also to how people do business there.

I think they're faster, they are less afraid. I think the uh when you fail, you're also seen as an entrepreneur. If you haven't failed, you just missed an important lesson. That's how I rather see it.

And that's how I also see like insolvencies and like uh teams failing in Europe. And once they did it, I have huge respect for the founders. And if they continue doing business, I think that's uh something really remarkable. Yeah.

So at the end, like it changed my perspective also on the fear of being of getting insolvent, and the huge difference is always always obvious the shame actually about it. So, how have you grown as a person through all this? I think you're just I'm just more relaxed with things. So uh I think when I invest, like I'm just more like the moment from being a bootstrapped founder on unemployment money to now a lot of things change.

You're much more relaxed also with taking risks, smart risks, of course. And I think it's it's just yeah, I mean, for me, uh having a stressless life is very important, and I think having learned that is very important for me, also, just enjoying everything, right? And that's the biggest impact. That's why also the hunger comes from.

That's why I'm still hungry for new business ideas and for new businesses. Do understand um that not a lot of things can harm you. So just take certain risks, try this new AI business. I think it's also very important people both exit having done and exit, also if you look at a big picture of the economy.

I think these are great skilled people that have a drive or like have impact on change in society. And I'd love to be part of this movement, whatever it is. So, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned through this entire journey and how do you bridge those into what you're building right now? One of the biggest lessons is if you don't try, you will never know if you fail or if you succeed.

So I think about six years back, 2018, when I started my business, I was thinking not doing it. Uh, of course. I had a great job. Uh I love the team working, and like the team I worked with, I love them.

So I thought about not doing it. So just take the risk and try it and have a plan B at hand. I think that's the major thing I learned. The second thing is the biggest fear is the fear of the unknown.

Once this fear hits, talk with someone, talk with an expert, someone who has gone through the journey already. And I think that's the two most important lessons because there's a lot of headaches. I had a lot of headaches of things where I simply didn't know what to do. And I simply would ask earlier people that have done it before.

So those two things I think make me or like uh the result is a less stressed entrepreneur. Uh that's to do major lessons. So let's talk about what you're doing today. You're building earlier ventures and your positioning as you know, the go-to advisory for founders and pee operators for exit readiness.

I'm drawing on your own experience, of course, and the I guess over 800 founders that you've coached. What is your mission with that now? Tell us a bit more about what you're doing and uh you know where you're headed. If I look back, what I enjoyed most, it was actually the scaling phase of comics, like of the old company.

The scaling phase from 1 million to 10 or 20, that was the most fun part. I really love to do it because I could simply solve problems and create processes. And today with Cloud Code or whatever you want to use, it's even more fun. And I think being an external person, looking completely like without judgment at processes, and then figuring out a smarter way, I think this is invaluable.

I really enjoy doing it. At the same time, of course, I try out different MVPs, like different ideas by side. But this is like really the major, the major driver I see. And I think the amount of founders that do burn out in that phase, and the numbers that we don't know, is very high.

And I think it's some really uh impactful work that I can do working with those founders and like really solving a big problem for that. What would you say your mission is with that? Just helping others not to burn out, I think. That's the major mission.

Yeah. And then of course, there's a huge business impact of also, of course, like uh for the money aspect if you go to one to ten. And this dopamine kick and will always grade for just like you know, creating a money machine, of course. And with because with money also comes impact and you solve a problem, right?

Uh it's not this very capitalistic, it's only about the money, but that's a huge effect that you feel. So those two aspects I think they are they go hand in hand. So what used to matter to you before? That doesn't matter anymore.

So what mattered before is like a I always had this very high, I started also in the uh like a half an hour ago with talking about it that I want to be a major impact into society. So of course, like when you're young, you have much higher goals. It just I think it became just smaller, very specific, and very niche, like into like my own niche of entrepreneurs, like German speaking entrepreneurs in the tech world, having an impact on those guys. I think it just became like streamlined smaller and just more narrowed down.

Uh in the core, I think it's the same thing. Like I love to solve challenges, I love to work with people that solve problems. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a difference between, I like to say, changing the world versus changing a world where you can have much deeper direct impact with the people within your network versus hey, let's try to boil the ocean. Absolutely.

Yeah, that's the major impact there. Last question. How has your definition of success changed over your entire journey from the start to where you are today? I think in the beginning it was a lot about like financial freedom, whereas now it's completely about fun, health, and freedom itself.

And freedom is not only financial, it's of course mental health. Uh it's of course health. I mean, I went through a burnout, so I know how that feels like. If your body doesn't work, nothing makes fun.

Not the most amount of the money, or like the most money in the world that you that you can have and spend. So I think I think health, great people around yourself, and uh being creative and playful, I think that's has changed completely. And it's just more enjoyable, I would say. Well, Chris, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your story.

Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, I think it's uh great stuff that you do. And I love the podcast and also the articles that are out in Substacks, so really looking forward to many more stories. Likewise.

Real quick, if what we talked about today resonated with you, the best thing you can do to pay it forward is to share it with someone you think would enjoy it too. The only way this podcast grows is by word of mouth. Whether that's a review, a post, or even a text to a friend, it would mean the world to me and would help me keep this podcast going. Hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.

And head over to profitled.fm for show notes. If you want to connect or share feedback, I'd love to hear from you. Find me at melissaquan.

com. That's M-E-L-I-S-A-K W A N dot com. Thanks for listening. Bye now.