The Courage to Create - Lessons in Resilience and Purpose from the Co-Founder of Femote

Speaker A: Welcome back to another episode of Practical Product Management where we talk about how product management is really done in context. Not that the theory is great, but we really think need to talk about the practical nature of product management. Today, Marilyn and I are going to interview Jill, um, who I know from living in Berlin. We've known each other for quite a few years and we're locked down buddies. And uh, we want to talk to Jill today about this transition she's made from product manager to founder. So Jill, why don't you introduce yourself and tell us a little about, a little bit about what you're doing.

Speaker B: Yeah. Awesome. My name's Jill. I'm originally from Germany but then lived abroad for 11 years and never thought I would ever move back to Germany. But then four years ago made the move to Berlin and the reason was actually my first official product management role. Um, before then I had worked in project management. Looking back, I've done product management for much, much longer than I, I was aware of. Um, but when I realized I decided, okay, it's time to make the official shift. And I wanted to focus on artificial intelligence rather than just software products. So I moved to Berlin and joined a fintech startup where Leah ended up coaching me because surprise, surprise, there was not a single woman above me or in the tech vertical. So I asked my then CEO to change that and because he couldn't change it within the company, he uh, made sure that I had a female mentor by my side, which was amazing.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And then four, not four years ago this year. Ah, um, made the shift into founding my own company and now I founded feod, a company that is developing remote solutions for gynecology in Germany because, and hopefully in the long run also in other countries. So definitely something we want to do in Europe because we've seen, we, we have such a shortage of doctors, um, and there's a, uh, lack of emergency appointments and appointments in general. And so we looked at the whole environment and we're like, okay, what is one of the problems that we could easily solve in a different way? And so we realized that intimate infections, so UTIs, yeast infections and bacterial vaginosis are one of the main reasons for emergency appointments in Germany. And we can easily pull them out of the practices. And so that's what we've started to develop. And we do this by combining antigen rapid tests with a software component and teleconsultations. Awesome.

Speaker C: Um, so a, sign me up for all of that because I think that, I mean I don't want to sort of like take Our conversation, uh, sideways. But like, honestly, uh, I think the, I think that more and more, um, getting health care into the hands of the people who need it, um, and freeing doctors from a lot of the sort of like, uh, like, I don't want to say like non essential but like they're not connecting with people. Right. It's just, um, I think that's the key to helping democratize health care. Um, but having said all that. So most product people. Right, Most product people, um, run a product that care about the business, that care about solving a problem. You've actually taken that a step further and pulled it all the way into foundership. Um, talk to me about that process and what actually, what actually drove you to like take the very brave step of saying like, okay, now I can like build a whole company on this.

Speaker B: Yeah. God, I feel like I need to take a step back because I, I think I went to university because I kept saying I have no idea what I want to become later on, but I'd much rather have my own business than work for someone else on something I don't enjoy doing. So I went to uni, studying international business to learn everything about finance and how to do that and then obviously didn't start running my own business for many, many years. And, and again I asked myself, okay, so what career do I see myself in? And I always loved managing people. Um, but you can't really apply to a management role. You kind of have to grow into that role by becoming an expert in one of those areas. Right. Um, and I think product was the first job title that really spoke to me because it was a combination of being organized, planning, you know, managing m, a lot of different stakeholders being very creative as well. So it wasn't just project management. Um, I always felt like it was a very creative way of doing project management and more. Um, but I think the real reasons for then to start my own company were also again, quite a few. So a, I was done working for men. And I'm not saying that I, I've worked for many amazing men in my life, but I was, I was craving working with a woman and learning from a woman and in a female led team. And I didn't find a company that was, you know, the kind of company I wanted to work for that was also hiring at the same time. And one of my uncles once said, well, if you can't find it, maybe you have to build it yourself. And so that was, that was definitely one part. The other one was that I could see in the tech World. And I know, Leah, you're doing a lot of amazing work in that field. The bad mental health that, you know, a lot of people were facing, I kind of thought, hey, we can do this better. Um, and, um, now I'm in a position that I think either I get humbled majorly and realize how hard it is to create a company that people enjoy working for, or I can actually prove to the world that, hey, this is doable. We can build amazing products, amazing companies, but also create an environment that people enjoy working in and also stay healthy in for longer. And then I think last year, on top of that, I just became obsessed with a problem and decided to find a solution. Um, and here we are.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker C: Sorry, Jill. Now you're one of my very favorite people on the planet. Um, we're now best friends. I don't know if you know.

Speaker A: Welcome to the Jill fan club. I was already in it.

Speaker C: Now you can be in it.

Speaker A: Look, you're making me blush.

Speaker B: Yeah, look at me. Like a tomato. Now I'm matching your outfits.

Speaker A: We're finally, finally. Now you don't have to change your shirt. No, I love it. No, I think that I love. I really love that. Um, you know, I loved getting to watch it. Obviously, I watched sort of this progression firsthand as your. As your, you know, mentor, as your coach, as your friend. Um, but I do think that what you just described is so important, and likely there's a combination of getting. You probably get some humbling, and you can build a company where people really want to work and can thrive. Right. That those. Those things usually go hand in hand.

Speaker B: Yeah. Quite frankly, I'm ready to be humbled if we can make this world a little bit better, Maybe even majorly better, but a little bit better would be a huge achievement already.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. No, 100%. And I think if we're all doing our part to make it a little better, it will get better. Right. And so I 100% agree. So when you made this. When you made this leap, what did you find you brought over directly from a product kind of skill set, directly into, like, oh, I can bring this thing over and it's a match to what I need to do as a founder.

Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like breaking things down into smaller packages was probably the one thing. And thinking MVP iterating, constantly getting feedback, and then also one sentence. I feel like it's such a. I don't know. I feel like it's been overused, and at the same time, I'm still obsessed with it. Is don't fall in love with the solution, fall in love with the problem. Right. And I think feeling, because I am a perfectionist, um, my self worth is very, very tied to how good I perform and what people think of me and how successful I am. And I think being a good product manager is embracing the fact that you will wrong, that you will make wrong decisions, that you need to iterate fast. And so it's been a journey. But also I feel like it's made me a better human and it's made me a happier human to embrace the fact that I don't have to be right and that, you know, going out and trying is what I need to do to find out how it could work.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, many a perfectionist were broken by becoming a product manager.

Speaker C: Ow. Ow. All of that rang too true. I think my favorite thing about this conversation, and I did not expect this conversation to go this way, is the focus on people. I actually think products are built by people. Like one of the things I say is like software is built by people, products are made by people. Um, and we very rarely create space for people to have a healthy relationship with work. And I don't like, I'm not saying that, you know, you get to come in late and only work four hours. Like I want people to be passionate and like put their, put their best in. But we also don't make space for people to have a life, um, to communicate in different ways. Um, unless, um, like what you said really resonated with me about creating a happy and healthy workplace place. Um, and I don't think I, I have ever like articulated that out loud. But for me, the team is everything. Everything. Um, so talk to me about like, you know, it, it is very hard to do that in someone else's company and someone else's culture. I'm sure you've probably built that within your own company before. So for all of those people that are a product manager or a people manager out there in the world today that haven't to founder, what are some of the tools you've employed to sort of try to build that culture?

Speaker B: That's a tough question. Um, I'm definitely, I've, I've, I've learned to trust my gut a lot. Um, and my gut often tells me to also just own the fact that I am unwell or that I am very unsure. So with my co founder and we had coaching to get there, it's not that this just happened to us. Um, we've built a culture to check in very quickly and own our vulnerability. So we have a code word that we can use to like to have like, basically a code word for the conversation starter. Because I always feel like it's the toughest thing once you got going. It's. It's fine to get vulnerable and, and discuss all the things that were difficult, but it's that, hey, I need to talk. I feel like it's one of the most difficult sentences.

Speaker A: We need to talk is some of

Speaker C: the worst words in the world.

Speaker A: I know any man.

Speaker B: So there's this one thing we need to have a chat about.

Speaker A: Oh, no, we're breaking up, right?

Speaker B: Uh, yes, the. So I think we've done two things once we've now established that we actually love working with each other and that we both know we don't want to do this without each other. So anything we do is not to hurt the other, but it's to make us better and stronger. And the cold word now is I've got a story in my head. Because very, very often it's, hey, I've got the story in my head that you think I haven't pulled my weight enough this week. And so I, I've actually overworked to compensate because my self worth is, you know, not very existent right now. And then very, very often the other one's like, oh, I thought you were upset with me because I showed up late this morning. Or I've been like, meeting my friends for lunch for an extra hour today and I haven't really been around. Or like, I think we also go through phases where one of us, one of us is usually the strong one that has a ton of energy and a lot of ideas and, like, makes it, like, a lot of progress. And the other one is maybe that's scared or maybe overwhelmed or just tired. And so it's really interesting to see how often we actually need to check in and establish the fact that we are okay. And I think in teams, especially in bigger companies where there's more hierarchy or more politics or also. And again, I'm, um, not trying to pick on men, but I feel like it's a lot easier for us women to own the fact that we're a little unsure because we usually have so much imposter syndrome anyway. And I think for men to step up and say, like, hey, I feel like I'm not good enough to be here. Like, I've never actually heard someone say that before and I would love for people to say it more often because then we can double check that story. In our head and actually open the room for honest feedback. Because there might be. There might be feedback that should be taken into consideration and that. That feedback. Actually, Leah, uh, you said that. And I'll never forget. Feedback is data, right? Feedback is not. You're not worthy of, or you're a bad person, or I don't like you. You don't even have to accept that data point. But look at it, analyze it, uh, put it into, you know, compare it with the rest of your world and your data points and then work that data. And so, like, for me, that's. That's really helped me. And so I think having that conversation opener, um, I think will make the culture, um, or like, we'll continue making this the culture as strong as it is right now.

Speaker A: It's super interesting you've said this, because I am finding that as I coach, I coach quite a few men about. I'm probably about 60, 40 men right now to women 60, which is interesting because I thought I would probably end up only coaching women, but I think men will come to me and let me coach them because they know that I've been successful and I'm a coach, right? So they're like this lady, I'll tell this lady some things, right? But I don't want to just tell any lady some things. I want to tell a lady who's been there, right? And so I think that's interesting. But one of the things, Jill, that you just said that I think has really been fascinating to me is how many of those men have imposter syndrome but would never claim it until they say it to me in a whisper. I might be dealing with imposter syndrome. I'm sorry, what? What did you say? Say it again louder for the people in the back, right? Whereas we're like, yeah, uh, yeah, sure. Imposter syndrome, walking, you know. And so I do think that there's something to be said for that. I also think that your. Your impulse as co founders to say, Here comes Lucy. That your impulse as co founders to say, like, hey, let's get coaching at the beginning, right? And have some conversations about how we're going to work together is something that I'm seeing, like co founder female pairs of co founders do it. Something I'm doing with co founder females, you know, as well. And I just think that that's. There's some real beauty in saying how it. We know what it looks like when it trickles down badly from the top. We've all experienced it when there's a Narcissist at the top when there's a poorly functioning person at the top. Right. We see that trickle down. So how can we make it trickle down when it's healthy? Right?

Speaker C: So, uh, funny, because Lucy walks like she's stomping across your desk. I, like, I heard every footfall and then I just heard my cat shouting from the hallway. So this is going to be a cat filled episode. Jill, I hope you have a cat. But I was very lucky this last week. I got to go to a conference where I got to listen to Brene Brown speak. And I was just pulling up my notes, um, because she talked a lot about leadership in this moment and how, um, how things are changing so fast. Not, uh, just because of technology, but because of everything else and what it will take to lead in this new environment. Um, and she talked a lot about being daring versus armored leadership. And how when you're daring and when you're able to be vulnerable, um, that is what people need. That, that is what will. What good leadership will look in the, in the future. Um, and she said a couple of things that. Jill, I think that you, you remind me, which is why I had this whole thought bubble. Um, if you lead people, empower them not to know. Empower them to come back to the team as a support mechanism and have those conversations, ask questions. Um, and then she said, um, fear is not the barrier to daring leadership. It's okay to feel fear. In fact, everybody feels fear. Um, but it's armor. Like, if you are feeling fear and you armor up as leadership and you're now always right and you're now the only say anything and you now have no vulnerability, that is what will make you fail. Um, and she said, you know, it's like, you don't want to build on dysfunction. So the work you've done with your founder to, like, get to a functioning, healthy relationship, like, you can't build on dysfunction. Um, and so now you have this sort of, like, relationship that you can build on that I think is like, super empowering. And when you were speaking, it actually reminds me of my relationship with Leah. Um, so when we first met each other, man, um, we were, we were not, we were not allies.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of what it looked like in my brain when Marilyn and I first met.

Speaker C: We were both so grounded in what our. What our path and what our opinion was that we made no space for this safety of this relationship. And it wasn't until, I mean, I don't even know what the catalyst was, Leah, but At some stage I was just like, I, like, I need you, uh, and you need me in order to make this happen. So how is this relationship going to work? And we got super vulnerable. I will tell you, Leah's one of my best friends on the planet. Um, but I, I'm also able to be completely vulnerable. Our code word, I mean, if I had a code word, it would be like pineapple. Not, not I have a story in my head.

Speaker A: But,

Speaker C: but I think there is this ability to really be vulnerable in a way because I know that Leah wants me to be successful. She's got my back. Um, she wants, she wants to help me through anything I have going on and vice versa. Like, um, so that's for me, like super powerful. Uh, what you just said. How did you get to that realization as a founder that you needed to like? Because I don't think people talk about this. It was the first time I'd heard of it and now it's come up twice in one week.

Speaker A: Uh, Sequoia doesn't have a book that says you should do this as a founder. They're like, make money. Right?

Speaker B: Hyper growth 10x10x is.

Speaker A: It's like. I know, I know.

Speaker B: Um, I think we just had to, we just had to run into issues in order to figure that out. So we, um. I'm just thinking about it. So when we met before we made the decision to start this company together, I wanted to really focus on our why behind this whole endeavor. Because I think, and this is something that product management has taught me, at the end of the day, we don't know what product we're going to build. We kind of knew what problem we wanted to solve, but even there we still had to validate a ton of assumptions. And so I wanted to know that our values and our, our why were aligned because then I could trust that we were able to pivot together. And so we spent a, ah, full month just getting to know each other. Our like, background stories, why we were doing it, our non negotiables, our like, hard. Absolutely not. Um, like, how important is money? What would be an exit that we would see ourselves doing? Do we want an exit? You know, like all these things. And so I think we were already a strong team when we started working on the actual company. But then there were some dynamics happening and I've learned a ton about myself again, um, through this process and I'm just, I don't want to share too much about her, but I can share about me and how I felt. Um, so in like, the coach basically told us, every single person or adult has these three parts, right? We have an adult self, we have a parent self, and we have a child self. And in a healthy, more or less healthy adult, the adult is the strongest part. And then we have the adult that can say, uh, the parent that can say, oh, we should be doing this now. We have to do this, you know, and, like, it's good to have that part, but it shouldn't be super strong. And then you have the child self that is creative and playful and, you know, like, you have different child selves. And again, that shouldn't be too big, but it's good to have that child self. And when I feel threatened or I feel, you know, out of my comfort zone, I go into a very. What's the word in English? Like, like, I turn into a child that says yes and that doesn't have an opinion. And that, like, the good, good girl, uh, like, I'm turning to that version. That is just easy, right? Um, and I don't really stand up for what I need because I'm also not very aware of how I feel about, you know, what's going on. And my co founders, like, has a very different dynamic in herself. And so we ended up having a huge shift in our power dynamic. That was especially hurtful for me because I wasn't looking out for my own needs and my boundaries. And so figuring that out, um, was necessary for us to now have that, like, on eye level way of checking in with each other. Because before I turned into that child version, I can be like, oh, wait a moment, like, something's going on. I'm, like, retracting. I'm putting up that armor. And so now, before the armor comes up all the way, I need to speak up about whatever I'm feeling.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. I love that. I think, I mean, I think if. If, like, you know, using Marilyn and I as an example, I think we both had these different dynamics as well that showed up. And when we learned to go, um, you know what, you know what, you know who's really good at this? Marilyn. Right? And I could say, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take one giant step back and let her take that spot, right? And I could just, I could create this space, right, for her to stand in it and succeed in that space and not take it personally that I wasn't going to ever be that person, right? Or. And vice versa. Uh, then suddenly you're able to go, oh, uh, this. This is a winning. This is a Winning proposition. We can. We can win at this. Right? And Marilyn. I mean, I. I always tell. And I think I've told you, Jill, like, Marilyn is the person that, if I'm negotiating a employment contract, I hand it to her and say, what. What am I supposed to be asking for here that I'm not. What should I. You know? And she'll be like, it's not enough money. It's not this. You need to ask for that, whatever. And it's someone who I. Absolutely. But. But we had to do that. So I'll say this. To do that, the first thing we had to do was have a conversation about how much money we were making at the same company.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: M. Which was super tricky.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Especially in the United States, where we don't talk about that stuff ever. Right. For the two of us to basically say, um, where are you in this salary band? Right.

Speaker B: Like.

Speaker A: Well, like. Because suddenly you're like, what does it say about my negotiation skills? Is she actually worth more money than me? Why did I do this wrong? Right. And it can blow up the opportunity for vulnerability and closeness and to make the next move. Right.

Speaker C: I think my other favorite part of that, Leah, is, uh, is, um, when. When you hold space for someone else, like, I like to. What you just said. Like, I. I actually. You're much better at some things than I am. Like, much better. Um, and so I'm often. Often when a recruiter will call, I'll be like, you know, I could probably do that. But who you need this lady. Uh, I don't think that that happens very often because the reactions that we get when we do stuff like that are. People are like, what?

Speaker A: Um, one of our favorite recruiters was like, the two of you are crazy. Because every time I bring one of you a job, you offer it to the other one, and I'm like, no, I still want that job. I just want. If I'm not going to get it, I want her to get it. Right. So, yeah. No, it's. I think there's just room. Right.

Speaker B: And I think, like, I find that so nice to hear. And I think I don't have the solution because I feel like there's a magic source for it. Um, to. For people and teams to feel safe enough.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: To have your little space or, like, have that area you can shine in without having to be the best one. Like. Because I don't think not every person is the absolute expert in that one thing, but I think you can still create a team where every single person gets time to shine. And I, uh, think with. With my co founder as well, like right now, because I'm also doing the fundraising in our team, I get a lot more time on stage. And right now we're part of a competition that gives us a lot of awareness and traction, which is what we need for exactly the stage that we're in.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I'm very aware of the risk of her, uh, thinking, oh, Joe, you take up too much space, or I don't feel as important as. Or as good as. And I am amazed by her because she is the biggest cheerleader and, you know, the first person, person that would say, no, this is amazing. But she's also owned the fact that she said, I just need, like, she wants to be careful to not miss the point where she maybe feels a little jealous. Not because I have done something wrong, but because she hasn't put the same amount of effort into her personal brand or her.

Speaker C: Huh.

Speaker B: Time on stage. And so I think for us to find a way to always, you know, give each other opportunities to take up that stage, and for her, it's probably going to be more in politics and, you know, in more the medical world, whereas for me, it's going to be more in, you know, on stage with fundraiser, with, uh, with investors.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, allowing each other to have that and then respect that it's someone else's main space. Main stage, I think is really important.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I love the fact that you can talk about it, like.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course.

Speaker C: Like, I never want to be on stage, like, ever. But if I were.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: I love it too.

Speaker C: But if, uh, if someone were there, I would. I would probably be, um, not jealous. And I think someone told me the difference between jealousy and envy is jealous is you want to take it away from someone else. And envy is you also just want that too.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Um, I don't even know if it would be envy. I would just want to be recognized as well. But not having to be on stage, I think that's horrible. Can. Is there another way to be recognized?

Speaker A: Um, yeah.

Speaker C: Anyways. Meow, meow, meow. You were going to say something, Leah?

Speaker A: No, I was just going to say, I think. I think one thing that comes to my mind when you're talking about teams is I know my teams at Tour Lane and at Klarna specifically, there were moments when we were under pressure and I would come to a meeting and my face has no poker. Right. It's all, you know, what cards I'm playing when I walk in the door. And Marilyn Knows this because she's been the recipient of my face, but she's been in the room when my face came in in front of me.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And it led the way into the meeting. Um, and I learned as a leader how important it was for me to say, what's going on here has nothing to do with you. I'm coming out of a conversation. I'm still in it. Or we've got this thing going on. I've got some. I've got. I'm having a day, so let's start talking, and I promise this will ease up. And I learned to say almost exactly those words and that you could. I could watch my team. Like, she's not mad at us. Yeah, Right. Because as the leader, you carry a lot of power into the room just by being the person everyone's. Everyone's looking at, even when it's not your meeting. Right. And so I had to learn to say, what's happening here, not about you. So everybody relax. And I promise that I will relax as we talk. And it always happened, like, as the meeting kicks off and we start brainstorming. I could feel. Feel my body relax, and my face would ease up. Right. My jaw would unclench. All of that would start to happen. But the team just needed off the hook.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Often what people need from us in relationship is just to be let off the hook for whatever's happening in us. Like, they are not responsible for what's happening in us. And I think sometimes as a leader, I have to. You know, I've always had to really remind myself, like, my words matter, my face matters, my body language matter, everything matters. And so what can I do to come in and be like, it's okay, everybody. I promise we're gonna make it through this meeting. I promise. I'm not here to kill you. Right. But. But it's important.

Speaker B: I was just thinking that, like, for me, at least, um, that goes out the door when I'm overwhelmed and I have absolutely zero space to take a step back and check in with myself. And I think it's just as a leader, right? It's so look after yourself well, but definitely well enough to have that capacity, um, to realize. Because I think it's when we're very, um, unconscious of, you know, what's going on in ourselves, and then bringing that energy into a room and not being, like, not taking responsibility for that energy,

Speaker A: we bring with us 100%. And I mean, having good. I think having good partnership, like, at Klarna, my engineering counterpart, he would be like, what's going on? And it. I would be like, nothing, I'm fine. I'm okay. Everybody, I'm okay. Right? Like, because he would he or he'd be like, what's this? Shut up, Marcus. Right, uh, I don't know why you don't mention my elevens. So you don't need to bring them up. Right. So I totally, totally feel that. So can I would like to shift gears a little bit and talk about like, what. How did we get in this situation where women's health has such a shitty focus? Uh, I mean it's fairly global that like just in general, I mean, hell, we sometimes build entire vaccines and test them against small men. Like, how did. What do you think, Jill? Having done so much thought in this kind of space, what do you think has happened to get us here and what's gonna save us?

Speaker B: Tough questions today. Yeah, no, um, I would like to think, I've chosen to think because it's easier. That it was never malicious, that it was just easier. Right. And that it was naivety to think, oh, women aren't that different to men and men don't have the same menstrual cycle that us women have. So they're a lot easier to use in research. Right. There's no risk of pregnancy, they don't shift hormones and many other things every single day. So it's easier, quicker and cheaper, um, to test things with them and on them. And so the white male, like CIS male has been the norm for many, many, many years. And if we look at research, there has been like no laws until not long ago to make sure that we test medication, safety belts and many other things on a diverse group of people. Right. And women is only one under represented group in, in medicine. Um, if we look, I mean as a white woman, um, I, um, am still in a very, very good position to get the help that I need. You know, am I a black disabled woman? We are talking about a very different situation altogether. Um, and now we do have laws in place that research, like for example, for, for drugs, in order to get drugs on the market, they have to be tested on women as well. However, the pre tests that are conducted on animals like mice are still not included in those laws. So all the early tests on drugs are still done on male mice in most cases. So it's interesting because obviously in those trials we throw out a ton of possible medication that then don't work on men, but we never find out whether they would actually work on women.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, I don't know if you read Invisible Women, it's an, um, amazing.

Speaker A: Make it crazy. Get it.

Speaker C: I know.

Speaker B: I would, I would recommend reading it. Like, every single person should have read, um, basically talks about that bias on the norm and how the norm should apply to every single person across many different, um, situations.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, like bathrooms and where there are bathrooms and access and how that can endanger women when they're trying to walk home and the night. Or, you know, just like things like, you know, how women that Sweden changed how they snow shovel so that women who are walking don't have as many accidents because men tend to drive into the city and women tend to bike, walk or push strollers. And so they would fall more prevalently. So they like rethinking entire infrastructure decisions because they're designed around the male life. Um, super, super important.

Speaker B: And actually, I mean, at the end of the day, you always need to bring hard facts, right? In that example in Sweden, they actually showed how they ended up making money by, like changing the schedule of the snow shovelings. Because before they were like, oh, the focus should be on roads because people have to get to work. And then they were doing, um, path walks afterwards. And now with the analysis they've done, as you said, they've turned that around and they realized that women, because they usually have to drop off kids on the way to work and, you know, like, do a lot of other stuff, they often leave the house earlier and so experience a lot more accidents.

Speaker A: And so, like, the healthcare system saved massive amounts of money by switching to. So it's just. It's insane. Like, it's, um. But the fact the data is there if we go looking for it, Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. And one of the, One of the interesting stories, and I love that story, is about Viagra, right? Because Viagra went into, um, drug tests for a, um, heart medication, right? And so it was only tested on men. And they were all reporting that it didn't help with the heart issues, but it helped with other parts of their body. Um, and so here we are, we've got Viagra, um, now, um, in, you know, later tests, they've actually found out that it seems, because it still hasn't been confirmed, um, that Viagra, or at least the, the ingredient behind that drug, is the most efficient PMS painkiller for women, right? And to this day we don't have a single pain medication, right, for women experiencing period pain, whereas we have a ton of drugs focusing on erectile dysfunction, even though many more women experience PMS versus the erectile dysfunction percentage in men. So it's, it's crazy. And I think that's another problem. Right. The decision makers are still majoratively male.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They're still majority white. Um, and they're not only decision makers, they're also money givers. And especially in pharma, there's a lot of, you know, you need to prove that there's a problem in order to get money and in order to like start the process of change. And if we don't have data, we have a huge data lack. We um, can't prove it. And so it's just this, you know, like very dysfunctional, um. Yeah. Circle of how we prioritize medicine and how we make medicine available.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean I think it's, I think what's interesting is from a product perspective, there are so many data points that say when you have women on the team building products that women use. When you have women in leadership so that they're. So you're making decisions because by like huge portion of household buying and travel buying and just car buying decision, large purchase decision making, women are either participating or making those decisions. Um, and yet by and large these industries, the product swing is still heavily male. The CEO C suite swing still heavily male. The board still heavily male. I remember at Amazon we were like, you know, the primary person we're, we're serving here is a woman, age 35, buying for her home. Why are these only men? Right. Making decisions about how payments are done. When it's women's money, women's payments, women's. We need to talk about that. Which is really, I think part of where one click was born was this idea that like how, how fast can we make this? Because I don't got time for this shit. Right. Like. So, um, I think that to be beyond just what we're talking about here in terms of, of healthcare, having more women in leadership, in product roles, in design roles. Right. User research, design, data roles. And they think they're so, they're so important. It's so, so important. And the data says that companies make more revenue.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: When there are women in these, in leadership roles. And yet, you know, you getting found, getting fundraising money will win because you will and you are going to, but you will be a tiny percentage, um, of all the money that goes into, to founders and into new companies goes to women.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's still proven that even a, um, like a female only team working on a femtech problem, you know, designed for women, we still get penalized when it comes to fundraising. So, yeah, all the data shows, there's been a ton of research on it, is that female only founding teams don't get a fraction of the money that male only or mixed teams get.

Speaker A: I mean, because you couldn't possibly know enough to run your own business, know what you're doing, and solve this problem since it's about the female body and

Speaker B: it's a niche problem most of the time.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I'm super glad that you're out there doing what you do, um, not just as a female founder and an all female team, but solving problems that directly relate to, um, you know, arguably the larger percent of people on the planet that get an underrepresented amount of effort targeted at solving our medical challenges. So, uh, Jill, from, from, from me and from everybody else that has the same point of view, like, thank you and please, please keep fighting that good fight because you, you start to break the glass ceiling for all of us, um, who do want to grow up and be founders and um, want to be taken seriously and not treated like the pet. Female. Female. Right. Uh,

Speaker A: yeah.

Speaker B: Thank you. And I think.

Speaker A: Oh, no, no, I was just going to say, like, I was just going to ask, like, if you were gonna give some piece of advice or a tidbit, um, what would you, what would you pass along?

Speaker C: Um,

Speaker B: I think you need to really accept discomfort. Um, and you need, you need something, you need a reason to do this that goes beyond money, a successful company, and being recognized as a successful person. Um, and I think that's why I've probably waited so long to do it. Because I've built myself a life that I love. And to be honest, I've been pretty protective over it. And there's until now, not been a, uh, product idea or business idea that I was willing to make so many sacrifices for. And with this topic and problem, it was the first time that I said, even if this fails, it will never be lost time. Like, I will never regret making that step into, like, the founding career because A, I love learning and I knew I would learn a bunch that I could apply to any job. Um, B, I was, I think, willing to put everything I've been saying into practice because I've always been opinionated and I've always been telling my male bosses and colleagues, like, what you're doing isn't working. And so I, I just kind of thought, okay, let's, let's give it a try. Let's see. Um, and so I think the motivation for me to do it is to learn. I think that's probably the biggest motivation and to make things slightly different or, like, very different. Right. But, um, I think just by being out here, um, it's weird to, like, speak about being a role model, but I know we struggle to. To be something or to imagine ourselves to be something that we've never seen before. Right. There's not many people that are so inspired and amazing. Right. Um, that they would just say, oh, I've never seen a female president before, but I will be a female president. Right. I know. And there are these. There are these people that are so, you know, so full of visions, and that's great. But the majority of us need role models, and they need to see what is possible, and then they can do the impossible. But I think they need to be inspired first, and they need that courage. And, um, I needed a ton of courage. And I've been lucky to, you know, have amazing women in my life that have inspired me to just go for it. And then I've also had a lot of men like my uncle in the background saying, like, you know, what are you waiting for? And so, yeah, get, get, get ready to sit in discomfort. A ton of discomfort. And if the learning is your biggest or I think, like, we can all have different reasons of doing it, but you need it. Bigger reason than building a company.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, I love that. And I mean, I think it goes back to what we were saying about courage. Right? Like, courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is doing something even when you're afraid. Right. And saying, I'm, um. It's. It's gonna be worth it. To your point, it's gonna be worth it even if it fails. Even if I fall on my face, even if I give a terrible talk, Even if. Even if. Even if, like, it's. It. The curse. Courage is saying, I'll do it anyway, even if my voice shakes. Right? So, yeah, 100%. Thank you so much for coming and talking to us about this. This is so fun. We're. I know we're going to have another reason to bring you back, because this. This conversation. This conversation was like, we have so many things to talk about. Right?

Speaker B: No, I loved it.

Speaker A: Thank you for joining us. And, uh, we will see everyone in the next episode. Episode. Bye.

Speaker B: Bye.