PPM Thanksgiving Special : Using Product Skills in Day to Day Life

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to our special Thanksgiving episode of practical, uh, product management. We're going to talk about how you can use product management in your everyday life and how people do that. So, um, we thought it would be fun to tell some stories about ourselves, but also gather some other folks stories and talk about this. Right, Marilyn?

Speaker C: Right. The ultimate practical product management transferable skills, extra practical.

Speaker B: So I mean, I think this is uh, a, as an entry point, I think, you know, product managers spend so much of their time kind of managing the glue between all these different parts and pieces that some of us come into product management because we were good at that in life and, and some of us get into product management and then become good at that in life. So I think, um, it's going to be fun to talk about our own stories, but also to hear from others and weave those stories into this episode so that everybody can see that it's pretty normal to weave product management skills into your day to day life.

Speaker C: Uh, what do you think the most transferable skill is? What do you think is the one that shows up most in people's real life? If you had to bet

Speaker B: that's a good question. I mean, I would say, I guess it's a toss up to me between like, I think my communication skills are stronger in my personal life, like, because I've had to learn how to do that and like, you know, deal with conflict, but also like get people on board like in my personal life. But I also think prioritization is important. Like sometimes I walk through my house in the morning, like today I need to do this and then I need to do this and then I'm going to do this and sometimes I reorganize it. Actually I'm going to do this first. Like I'm just talking to myself out loud. Just trying to get my, my daily roadmap under, under control. Right. So, yeah. What about you? What do you think?

Speaker C: I love it. Uh, I was gonna say communication as well, but now I realize that I walk through my house organizing myself and pestering my poor husband. I get his day off. We're just sitting around during, during, uh, like having coffee. And I'll be like, what are your goals for the day?

Speaker B: He's like, I didn't have any. This is what I'm doing. But I mean, I think even on days off I have to sort of give myself. Like today's goal is to drink coffee and read books.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: And I'm like, okay, okay, I can do this. Right?

Speaker C: Be a declared goal for me. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Otherwise I'm like, uh, how do we know we're, what's the definition of done?

Speaker C: Right? Okay, so that's hilarious because I was just going to say how do you know if you've had a successful day if you don't have declared rules?

Speaker B: Right? The end of the day, I get in bed and I'm like, yeah, I feel like we got that sprint under, under wraps. We got it under control. We delivered floors, clean laundry, laundry, put away books, read, check, check, check.

Speaker C: Okay, so Leah, let's get really specific with the story then. We're both bringing our product management skills to life in our day to day, in our day to day existence. It's not really work. Um, so what, what is one of your favorite examples of, um, using these skills in real life for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a good question. The thing that comes to my mind first, like, like immediately is my gigantic move from Seattle to, to Stockholm when I moved to Sweden in 2017. And you know, I, I, you know, off I go, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go interview in Sweden and I'm like, I'm not taking that job. I'm just gonna let them pay for a trip. And then I get there and I'm like, oh shit, I'm moving to Sweden. Like, I guess I have to figure this out. And so, um, you know that I had basically from about, uh, I don't know, middle to late August until November to execute this move. Right. Um, and it meant like, you know, how is this all going to work? And what I will say is that ultimately there were two user journeys. There was me and there were the cats. Yes, two very distinct user journeys that needed to be worked out. Surprisingly, mine was far less complicated than theirs. So the cats user journey was very time specific. And I mean, you remember because I came to your house and it was very, it was all very like meticulous. I had to fly, I had to get them, you know, checked out. And they had to have rabies vaccinations six weeks before. And they couldn't be seven weeks and it couldn't be five weeks. It had to be a certain number. And then I had to go to the um, to the U.S. like department, uh, of agriculture and make and get them all checked out so that I could take them, even though they're not livestock, take them overseas and then, you know, get them checked and then, and that was all very timely. Everything had to be like meticulously timed out. And then I had to either arrive at the same time as them or Arrive before them, which is tricky because you're trying to get on a plane, right? And. And so I ended up, as you know, I flew from Seattle to your house, spent a night or two, I don't remember how long, but, uh, a night or two, and then flew from your house to, to Stockholm, because that gave me a halfway point, like I could fly. I flew with them in cabin, which was terrible idea, from Seattle to New Jersey and then with them in the hold between New Jersey and Sweden, which was the only option. I couldn't fly with them in cabin. And so that was. There was two very distinct user journeys. I had to have visa paperwork, I had to have all of everything so that I could get into the country. Then I had to have paid every piece of paperwork to get them into the country. And then there was like executing the move. I had to like, get rid of a bunch of stuff because I was moving only so much stuff and not taking furniture. So I had to like offload furniture and sell things and give things away. And everywhere I went for months I took bottles of wine because I had this whole stockpile of, of wine that I couldn't ship, right. So there was all these things that I had to do. Plus I had to. I wanted to at least see everyone that I needed to see before I was going to be gone for at least six months, six to nine months. So I went to New Mexico and visited my friends. I went to Portland and saw my nephew. You know, I did all of these things. And that all needed to be executed, like pretty precisely. Um, because I needed to get like, when are things packed? When are things. You know, yesterday was actually these. Yesterday was the 27th of October. So this is, this is being filmed for later. But yesterday was the exact seven year anniversary of the day my shipping container came and they packed me out.

Speaker C: Oh my gosh.

Speaker B: So it was very, very poignant that I was going to talk to you about this because it had to all be very meticulously executed. So I needed my strong communication skills, stakeholder management. I had to understand the journey and map it out, like. And I had to have a very, very, very detailed calendar. I had basically a Kanban board where I was making sure things were getting shuffled so that I could move things along. And it was a lot of work. I was very stressed. It was like launching a product in terms of its stressfulness. By the time I got to your house, I was down to the like, okay, there's only so many things that can go wrong now. And if this goes Wrong. Will you keep my cats and I'll come back and get them?

Speaker C: I was going to keep all of them, to be clear.

Speaker B: I was like, they may have to stay here for some reason. I can't get them on the plane. Can you take them home with you? So it was very, like, very, very planned out, and I had to have a backup plan for everything, so there had to be a rollback for me and them. So, yeah, it was a lot.

Speaker C: I mean, that I would. By the time you got to ours, I remember you telling me about all the things you were doing, and I, like, uh, unfathomable. I mean, it was, like, so complicated. But by the time you got to our house, you were chill. You had it nailed.

Speaker B: Like, there's nothing. At that point, there's nothing else I could do. My had all been sold. I didn't own a car anymore. I had plane tickets for me. Plane tickets for them. And it was like, we're going or we're not. This is what's happening. And if we don't, uh, we have nowhere to live, so we're gonna have to live with you. We had, uh, room.

Speaker C: We were fine. Would have been awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C: You landed in New Jersey and never left.

Speaker B: Right. Oops. I never. I never got on the plane. Sorry. Yeah, I mean, I honestly, the. The most stressful thing about that whole move was the cats, because I knew, like, I just. There's no. So little you can do to control it except just follow the rules and then hope that you don't miss something

Speaker C: and that they're so important. Like, that's like, that's one of the things you don't want. That's a dependency. You don't want to fail.

Speaker B: Exactly. Ah.

Speaker E: Exactly.

Speaker C: Do you? So question.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Post it notes. Are you a post it note person?

Speaker B: I don't, you know that I don't, like, post notes on my desk or anywhere on my thing. But if I need to get things done, then for sure, right? Because then I will not. I do not ignore post it notes attached to things because I'm like, I don't like these.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: They make me feel like things aren't

Speaker C: done right along the bottom of my monitor. Right now.

Speaker B: I only have one post it note on my desk. And it literally says, how do you want your life to feel? That's the only one that's on that I have right now. I mean, I have. I generally by the end of the week, I will have accumulated a few, and then I'll go through them and do whatever Needs to be done to get rid of them. Yeah. You know, I think. I think that there is such a. It is such a skill to be able to execute. And when people are. When. I mean, I think I stressed everyone else out with my stress.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: But I was sort of like, I have to. I have to go to sleep now and not worry.

Speaker C: There's nothing.

Speaker B: I've done everything I can do for today. Like. Like you do as a product manager. I've done everything I can do today. We'll get up tomorrow, we'll do some more.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker B: Right. And there's. You can't just, uh. The temptation, I think, for a lot of us as product managers is just to keep working. But you have to take a break. You have to go to sleep. You have to get back up and do some more tomorrow.

Speaker C: And if it's organized appropriately, it's not hard to pick it back up. Like, you're organized appropriately. You've. That you've worked to a break.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Take the break and pick it back up the next day, the next cycle, the next Sprint, whatever.

Speaker B: Totally. I will. Just as a. As a cute moment, I got on the. I got on, um, Scandinavian Airlines SAS in Jersey and in Newark. And the. I got in. I got settled in my seat, and the flight attendant came back and said, the pilot wants you to know that your pets have been loaded. The heat is on, the oxygen is flowing, and they're fine. Uh, and I was like, thank you. Right. Because I'd had to, like, leave them. I, uh, handed them off to the people in the airport and had to walk away and was, like, terrified of all the horror stories I'd heard about, you know, flying animals and what happened. But there was no way for me to fly them into Sweden in cabin no. And so it was just like, okay. And so. But. But the flight attendant was like, the pilot wants you to know. And I was like, thank you. It's as warm down there as it is in here. Like, how. How the temperature you feel is the temperature they feel. It's got the lights dimmed, it's warm, the oxygen's flowing, and there are no other pets down there. That was the only thing they told me. There are no other pets down there. And I was like, okay. Because I was. Yeah.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker C: So I know I love cats, but

Speaker B: with this, they were like, hello. Kratos would have been like, can I get in that crate with you?

Speaker C: Y. I just remember how thrilled he was to know that cats came in orange.

Speaker B: Like, m. Ginger didn't know.

Speaker C: Well, and that is, that is the reason. That is the sole reason that I drove. Well, that and the fact that he was too big to actually get on a plane was the reason I drove my enormous dog across country three times. Because it's scary putting your. And there are horror stories and so. Oh, I'm like, three cheers for sas.

Speaker F: I'm always.

Speaker B: I am a fan of SAS Airlines for many reasons, but that is one of the. That's, that's. They won me over that day. I was like, sold. Give me a frequent flyer miles card.

Speaker C: I'm now yours.

Speaker B: I belong to. It's hard to fly them from here, but

Speaker C: I don't think I've ever flown them ever. Sorry.

Speaker B: They're lovely. So, yeah, that's my story.

Speaker C: You remember my story probably very well. You.

Speaker G: Uh.

Speaker C: So I have a son who's 28 now and he is such a good human. Um, but his teenage years were a challenge. He was an absolute, absolute pill.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And he decided somewhere along the line that he was just angry and he wasn't going to communicate. And I could never get a word out of him and I didn't know what homework was happening. I didn't know what was going on in his life. Um, yeah, and just killed me as a parent. And uh, somewhere along the line we got this weird and wild idea just to do stand up every day. Now, I'll tell you that my kid hated every second of it. But we would stand in a circle, me, Patrick, Gallon, and we would stand in a circle and we would say what we did today, what are we going to do tomorrow? Do we need any help with anything? Just quick.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker C: And it was the most communication I got out of him about school, about his life. He hated every moment of it.

Speaker H: Right.

Speaker B: I mean, listen, I've been to some stand ups that I hated every moment of. So every morning, and I think there are probably some engineers who have been to some of my standards who made it every morning.

Speaker C: But you communicate and it was remarkable. Like, like just having that short format. There was no. You couldn't like really dig into the subject with the other person. It was just a moment to say what, like what you were doing, what you did, what you were doing. Um, so it's not like we could nag him or bug him or like we held stand up rules very strictly and he communicated in those moments and it was just, I'm not going to say his teenage years were like wonderful and there were bunnies and rainbows and butterflies because there were not. Uh, but it was the One time where I felt like I got a lot of communication out of him in a moment where he didn't want to talk to his parents.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You were. You were not that you were the enemy at that point. Right. Whether he knew that or not that you weren't. But at the time, he felt like it. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember being in the office and. And you being like, I gotta. I gotta go my kids on a pip, and I have to go work it out with.

Speaker C: I wrote. I wrote a performance improvement plan for my son. Um, I put him on a pit because he was not meeting my expectations

Speaker B: as a parent, and we need to have, like, are you gonna fire him? And you were like, no, but he might lose some more privileges. And I was like, okay.

Speaker C: But I wanted it to be structured and logical. Like, if he lost privileges, I wanted him to understand exactly what behavior was driving the. Like, the privilege loss.

Speaker B: Exactly. And what he could do to keep it from happening.

Speaker C: Oh, man, I wish I still had that written.

Speaker B: I just rem. Remember.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: I just remember you saying that. And I was like, wait a minute. What's gonna happen if he fails?

Speaker H: You're like,

Speaker C: man, like, uh, we had a meeting every day to talk about his performance against the pip.

Speaker B: Yeah. How you doing, buddy? Oh, okay. She takes this stuff seriously.

Speaker C: No other tools. Like, I had no other tools. Like.

Speaker I: Right.

Speaker B: No, you go with what you know. Right.

Speaker H: Yeah.

Speaker C: Ah. And it's funny because, like, a lot of these tools are meant to handle, like, crucial conversations with people that you work with, but they can really easily be turned around to take the emotion out of crucial conversations that happen with your.

Speaker B: Um. Do you want to know what? I'll never. He's going to be horrified that I say this. What? I'll never forget about Callum. It's when we walk. I walked into the lobby to meet him for the first time. M. And I said, oh, is this your husband? I knew it wasn't because he was 12. He was so, like. I mean, I think I had already met Patrick, so I already knew him. Right. But I knew I was meeting Callum, and I was like, I'm gonna see if I can make him do a teenage boy move. And I did. So horrible. He's like, oh, that's so gross. It's my mom. And I'm like, oh. Like, I didn't know as a child. Uh, then I think from that point on, we. He love hated me.

Speaker C: He, like, he speaks so highly of you, but I. I think he just liked adults that treat him, like, not Like a child, Right? He is always.

Speaker B: I would give him. Every time I was at your house and he was there, I was like, I would just give him the business and he was like, all right, this one, this one knows how to talk to kids.

Speaker C: Exactly right. Exactly right.

Speaker B: But, yeah, it. But yeah. And I think, like, you know, we use the skills we've got, and we had acquired skills that got us through.

Speaker I: Really.

Speaker B: I mean, product management's intense. Right. Raising a teenager is even more intense. Right. And so you use the skills you've got and you try to figure out how to weave them into life. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I think it makes total sense.

Speaker C: I think that there are skills that carry with you for life. Right. You know, now I have. Now I have aging parents living with us, and. And we're definitely talking about prioritization of projects.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Can't do them all well.

Speaker B: And I mean, as long as I've, um, known you, every, every time you've moved into a house, you and Patrick have gone to work on something. Right? Like, we're gonna overhaul this and fix that, and there's a trench in the yard and this is happening and. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I think it's one of those things, like I, you know, I know that, that, you know, you knowing how to organize those things and Patrick being an engineer who knows how to execute on things, it's really helpful.

Speaker C: It has helped remarkably well. Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, I think that makes total sense. That's awesome.

Speaker F: My name is Alice Tan. I have been in product probably for about 10, uh, years or so now. I started out in analytics working with Leah and Marilyn at Expedia as a business analyst. And I found, um, the space between analytics and product to be like, the space that I love, and I since have, have been focused on that. I've got three examples for you today, and I'm a huge fan of this podcast and is one of my favorite things to listen to on my commute to work. Um, so three examples. One, uh, very early on, it shaped how I picked my career, actually. And then the second one is really, it's a life roadmap. And then the third thing I did, I do a lot, pretty much every year, is this kind of an exercise to check where I am, like personal life, career life, and I call that a, ah, life mapping exercise. So the first one, um, um, so this was in high school, so I didn't really know about product management, but I knew my criteria for a career. I loved art, I loved math, I loved working with people. So Kind of industrial engineering plus a math thing was kind of what I did. So product management of analytics sounds pretty close. The second one, um, life roadmap, there were some lifetime um, milestones that wanted and I kind of laid it out, uh, the 50 year roadmap if you will. That was a little bit nerdy of me, wasn't it? So I'm way off track. But you know, planning is priceless as we all know as product managers. And um, the third one I'll go in more depth is this life mapping exercise. So life gets really busy. We, there are things that's asked of us, the things we want from life and it just helps everyone so on to take an inventory of what that looks like. Right. Uh, you can bucket that into different categories on, on both sides. What are you willing to invest your energy and time in, your resource in and what, um, in what ways do you want to acquire energy and resource and. Right. So, so there's a give and take of that. So really like thinking about it using that framework has really helped me um, shape my life and do more of the things I love.

Speaker B: So it sounds like there's an element of it that's strategic and elements of it that then influence what you do tactically in your sort of day to day life.

Speaker F: That's right.

Speaker B: Fair to say.

Speaker F: That's definitely right. The intent behind is to be really intentional, uh, about, about how we go through life. Right. Um, there's um, there's the financial piece on the, on the left hand side and the right hand side. It's um, resource acquisition and an allocation. So acquisition is like what kind of career do you want, how do you want to make money, how do you want to invest your money? Um, how do you want to invest in your own learning and your own growth and how do you want to grow your family? Like so there's a lot of investing on one side. On the other side is like how do you want to use all this energy and money you've and just like joy you've acquired in life and how do you want to spend that? Right. Do you love shopping? Do you love like spending time entertaining friends and family? Do you love traveling? Or do you want to picking up like uh, ancient calligraphy art that has since like nearly gone extinct. Right. Um, just so that as much as possible you're surrounded by the things that bring you joy. Right. And so uh, it just keeps me in check to not get into like the monotonous part of like going through the daily motions.

Speaker B: Yeah. And so you would Say that in order to get there, to do that as a. As a planning function and as the way, like, you lay out that roadmap, do the life mapping, lay out your roadmap and think about that. That what you've learned along the way as a product manager has played an important role in getting there.

Speaker C: Definitely.

Speaker F: Right. Um, it's. It's definitely helped me shape the intention behind everything we do. So there's value add, if you will.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker F: There's a. And, um. And sometimes I definitely get into the space of, like, oh, well, why did I do that? What was the point? Or, like, um, that probably wasn't a good use of my time I spend. Right.

Speaker C: Or.

Speaker F: Or sometimes others around me don't understand why I spend so much time doing something. And I'm very willing to be misunderstood because it's something that clearly brings me joy.

Speaker B: That makes total sense. I love it.

Speaker G: I love.

Speaker B: I love that idea. And I think, you know, like you said, everything. There's an element of everything that we do to acquire freedom, whether that's, you know, to make decisions and to have the life we want. Right. So there's this element of the work we do, where we spend our time, who we spend it with, all of that. There's an element of, like, how do I then get a return on that investment? Right.

Speaker E: So.

Speaker F: Right.

Speaker B: Return is joy, you know, um, the ability to. To achieve things we want to achieve, have things we want to have. Right.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker F: It helps me better understand myself. Um, and one of the things that I'm better at, uh, making a decision on is what am I willing to do for certain things. And as you and I know in our conversations, that has been a tough one to kind of, uh, go back and forth on, but things like this really helps.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. Awesome. Thank you for sharing all of that. Absolutely. I appreciate it.

Speaker A: Hi, Marilyn. Hi, Leah. Uh, my name is Billy Jackson. I work for Prior Health as the VP of Product. I've been doing product management for probably eight or nine years, depending on how you count it. Um, and I was thinking about this assignment, and I'm like, you know, I don't think I actually do a lot of product management at home. Like, I think about the end goal when I'm doing a project or, like, rebuilding something in the yard or working on something for the family. And based on the feedback I get from. From dad is in vacation planning mode, probably not the best product manager for home, I thought. Yeah, I don't really do that. Like, trello boards and stuff. Don't really count. And then I was digging through my, uh, Google Drive the other day and I was a little bit, um, surprised to find this. So, like a lot of people, uh, post Covid, I like, I like, sunk into our garden, uh, because we had a really big garden at the time, vegetable garden. And I remember rebuilding it from scratch. And, uh, I wrote this one pager for it. This is the garden one pager. And we use semantic versioning for garden one pagers. So it's 3.0.1. Right. Uh, and it lists the prom the goal at the top, like a good product manager. And then the less good product manager pieces are problems to solve and features usually. Usually you'd want to break those down, I suppose. But, uh, I'm like, well, okay, I wrote a one pager. So what? So what? Well, I also did a design, uh, and nobody would ever say I'm a UX designer, but I said, this is the layout of the garden. It's like, okay, this is how it is supposed to look. And then the place where I realized, okay, I actually went like all the way down the rabbit hole of product management is, uh, at a tracking spreadsheet to see the results, right? And so you can see that you're, uh, 683 pounds of produce. You can see stacked by the type, how many times we picked each thing. Zucchini gets picked a lot, obviously. And, uh, by day, so you can see when we harvested the pumpkins and the squash and the carrots are the biggest bars. Right? Uh, so I guess, I guess I have used my product management skills in my day to day life. And, uh, I'm thankful for them and all the people who taught them to me and helped me come along. So Happy Thanksgiving.

Speaker G: Hi, I'm Deirdre Clark. I live, uh, in Raleigh, North Carolina. And I've been in product management for 17 years. A long time. Right. But I just love it. And I know you do too. I tend to put my product management hat on in everything I do. I just walk into a store and I automatically start thinking of what's their business plan, how do they make money? And my story really comes down to something fun. I started playing pickup pickleball, uh, two to three years ago now. And it's such a fun community. And it was this time last year I was starting to get chilly out and a few of us were like, oh, it'd be so cool if we got some, like, matching hoodies that actually said our community, where we play a little cute little pickleball logo. So I Immediately went into discovery mode. I'm a leader, I'm a people gatherer too. And I started doing some user discovery and like what kind of hoodie would people want? We ended up deciding that most people really wanted quality over, over cheapness. So we set the price point like what was going to be that pricing model. We then also I, well it was really me. I started doing a lot of the partner reach outs to figure out how we could, which hoodies we could get at what price, make sure that we covered our costs, came up with the marketing aspect of it. I worked with one of the people that I play with as a designer. So we riffed together on a couple of different logos for it. We put together some flyers, like hung them up. We also communicated it in this channel, digital uh, channel that we all communicate in for our marketing program to get the, the orders, capture all the orders and, and then our go to market launch was all about this is like where the pickup's going to be. If you have any problems, reach out here. We had it all nailed from beginning to end and it really worked out really well. I love that story because like you mentioned in the post, everything is so applicable like in everyday life to product management. It just really is.

Speaker I: Uh, so I'm Parks Daniel. I work in product at MasterCard, specifically at Dynamic Yield by MasterCard. Um, I've been doing product for you know, one year at this company, but four years overall in some product adjacent roles as well. Um, and when you guys asked this question, I reflected, I had some immediate examples. And then all of these examples keep coming to mind and how I'm using products in my day to day. Um, the biggest one for me is around vision and strategy. And I do this every day in my life. I have a vision for where I want to be, you know, in 40 years, 30 years, five years. And it's not something I necessarily write down. Sometimes I track it, sometimes I don't, but I know where I'm going. Um, and once I have that vision, I mean, you know, it's kind of always with me and then build the strategy to get there. And I kind of only build that strategy out for the next three to five years. But I'm always working to hit those milestones in that strategy and you might call it manifesting but you'd be shocked at how often once you set that strategy, once you know where you're going in three to five years, you get there. Um, so that's actually I think the biggest thing for me. It's just Inherent to who I am. Um, um, I also use a lot of experimentation. So I am the trip planner. I m. Am the organizer. And the best way to get feedback when you are trip planning and organizing events for your friends is to put it out there, put a little nugget of an idea out there and get some feedback. Just little pieces of feedback along the way. Um, and I kind of do that. Like I think about a trip. My friends and I went to Mykonos maybe last year. Um, so many ways you could spend time in Greece and you just start to build out a plan, shoot a couple of things out there, get some feedback, and eventually you've got a well rounded itinerary that everybody feels good about. And I'm the kind of weirdo that also asks for feedback. So when we're, you know, after the fact, so we're on the trip, how did you feel about that excursion?

Speaker B: Was it fun?

Speaker I: Was it just right? Uh, what was the price point?

Speaker D: Like?

Speaker I: Like, how do you feel about that?

Speaker B: You would you tell your friends to go on this trip? Right, Exactly.

Speaker I: Um, and I'm thinking about my birthday next year. I put out a survey to my friends because I just want some initial feedback to help send me in the right direction. I want friends there. I want customer. You know, they're my customers. How am I going to get them there? I've got to do something that they feel good about. Um, so I think those are two of the biggest things. And the third thing I call out is going out to a restaurant with friends. It's very much like an empathy mapping. And then we make cuts. Like, how does everybody feel tonight? What do you want to eat? All right, let's look at the menu. We'll write down everything that we're excited about and then we'll start to organize it, we'll prioritize it, we'll prioritize the list. We'll make some cuts, we'll be ruthless about it. We can't get the chicken and the beef, like only pick one. Um, so I think, I think it just shows up all the time in ways that you would never imagine. And these skills are just inherent to like, who you are. Um, that's what makes you a good product manager, because you're a good product manager in your day to day life.

Speaker H: So I'm Ashley Hathaway.

Speaker B: I

Speaker H: currently, um, work in more customer success, but have been in the product management realm since like 2013. Ish. I think, um, somewhere around that time. And I, I really go back to kind of those Days, um, for the foundation of how I think at work and things like prioritization, value to effort. Um, I was taught a lot of design thinking type methodologies. So there's this mental model that has stuck with me about, like, Converge, diverge and the ebb and flow of decision making. Um, and I feel like that has played out well in my career. And, um, I can definitely point to, you know, either those, like, methodologies or, um, artifacts that I create and just kind of the, the ethos of what a good product manager is. Uh, and my, My current work. And now, um, you know, you pose the question, what about your personal life? And I thought about it for a second. I was like, actually, wouldn't you know, it. It's everything from little things, like, what are we having for dinner? Right? Like, uh, where, you know, I, I want to go on a vacation. Um, and, and how do. How does that get planned? How are decisions decided? Um, who is the user? Who is the decision maker type of, of mindset. Um, um, and, you know, to, to really big things, right? Like, where should we live? Um, what's the right school?

Speaker B: I.

Speaker H: And then I, I also think the way that I think about data, whether quantitative or qualitative now really impacts me, uh, to say this isn't a good decision, or like, I got 10 steps down the line and learn something new and this actually isn't going to meet my goal now. And having the. I think that gave me some, um, strength to say no more and to kind of leave things, you know, behind and, and that's okay, right? Because I'm still going towards the same goal, but learn something new. So, yeah, I think that, that, um, balance of decision making, the comfort with ambiguity, the thinking about what are the key goals, what does winning look like? That type of. Before you get into anything, let's take a moment and, you know, quote, unquote, strategize is what I would using my professional life, but that doesn't feel quite right in my personal life. Um, but, like, what's. What's the intent here? Right? And I think that kind of just first step of, of anything is. Is still relevant, you know, hourly, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker F: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's funny because as I've had some of these conversations, one of the things that's come up is, is, you know, how often we as product managers do think strategically, like, what's the plan? Where is it going? Is it going in the right direction? Is that the life I want? And then tactically, like, how am I going to. What am I doing for dinner? How much are we packing? What's the, you know, how. What are all the steps to get this move done? What's all the steps to get this bathroom rebuilt? Like, whatever. And so there is sort of this. We have these frameworks in our brains for how we do our work. And then it shows up in like, I need to remodel the kitchen, right? And suddenly it's like, let me get a list together and a combo board. And you know, and, and yet we also have these big strategic decisions, right, that we also think in, in those terms. So I think that's really fascinating. Uh, and I like what you said about data. Like we gather more information and then go, yeah, maybe this isn't the right choice. Maybe there's some other decision that needs to be made. And I, I really like that. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Super interesting.

Speaker H: Like for instance, my, um, my kiddo is, you know, we're considering schools and uh, m. I think about like, well, you know, I've got a kindergartner for a user, right? And like, you know, decision maker. Um, well, you know, we need to go do research with these schools. And like, at the end of the day it was uh, you know, it felt very good to be like, well, we're not going to make a decision until it's right for him. And that level of control is not something that I necessarily get professionally because there's competing priorities and a business is giant. Right. And it can be. You know, in my career I've primarily worked with enterprises. Um, so you know, sometimes decisions have to weigh a whole lot. And yeah, you know, I'm. I think I'm lucky in that like there's some really great choices for schools and lots of options. So, um, but you know, coming back to like, what is right for the quote unquote, the business, like the family and what is right for the user, uh, that's, um, that's something that, that is nice because I don't necessarily get that warm, fuzzy, um, sometimes professionally. Right. Like sometimes it all works out. But uh, yeah, there's trade offs, there's tough trade offs that have to be made, um, you know, for the business. And, and yeah, that's just the reality of, of product management as well.

Speaker D: My name is Jill. I am, um, based in Berlin and I have been in product, I would say around 10 years. Officially it's been less, but looking back I've definitely been in product management for a lot longer. Um, I would say that my entire life is basically organized in multiple Kanban boards. So in that sense, product management is always part of my life, especially now that I'm founding my own company. But, um, since everyone is going to say that answer. Um, the concept of mvp, the minimal viable product, is something that I now apply to everything because my life is very busy now and I'm a perfectionist and we've worked on this quite a lot. So I've always tried to, like, do everything perfect. And then, yeah, now that I'm. I'm busier than I used to be, I'm definitely trying to get away with the minimal scope that I can and then get some feedback before I put

Speaker B: more effort into things. Makes total sense. Um, is there like a. Is there. Do you do that with like, if you're going to try a new sport, if you're going to try, you know, do an event, like, those kinds of things. Like you say, like, okay, what's the minimum thing I can do?

Speaker D: Yeah, I usually try when I plan things. Could be a birthday party, it could be a dinner, it could be, um, what else? What am I doing? Um, yeah, maybe even like, preparing for a weekend trip. Yeah, I'm thinking about, okay, what are the must haves? What are the absolute non negotiables? You know, I need a car to go, like, to go there, but having a boombox with me, like, could be a should have rather than, you know, a must have. And then just starting with the absolute non negotiables and then work my m. Work myself through the shoulders and the nice to haves, um, because it's. It's nice to know that, you know, reaching a certain goal is a lot more achievable than having this unachievable ideal scope of a weekend trip or a dinner party.

Speaker B: Well, and like, what's. What is it then, you know, done is better than, you know, progress is better than standing still. Right. So, yeah, you know, it's better to have made some do something than nothing.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker B: And so especially when it's like that kind of thing, because I think generally in life people will sort of. If you push the momentum, um, then people join in and are like, I could do this and I can do this. And then you're like, oh, I didn't have to do everything myself.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: And now I'm actually remembering one thing. So, um, at the beginning of the year, I started to found my own company and with my co founder, uh, we are now very good at postmortems and we're very good at recaps. So every Friday we actually sit down and we dissect the week and we have a bit of a check in and if something goes really wrong we definitely have a post mortem to understand what we could have done better. And I think those feedback loops that you get hammered into your brain learning product management, I think that's, I mean it's, it's more scrum in a way or like different frameworks, but it's definitely something that I apply all the time.

Speaker B: Well and I've seen, I mean I've seen your, you know, when you guys do your recaps even on social media where you share. I think that's so important for other people that can see like, oh, this is how this goes. This is a great week. This is a tricky week. This is a busy week. This is, you know, I think that's really cool. So thank you, I appreciate it.

Speaker E: I'm Rebecca, I'm from Berlin. I've been in product for 10 years now. Um, I'm self employed, employed um, for I think almost six years. Um, I've been working with all kinds of companies. So from early stage startups, growth startups, uh, but also corporate, corporate innovation hubs, uh, and just helping them build great products um, and work uh, on their product process.

Speaker B: Nice. I love that. I lived in Berlin for five years so I have a special, special place in my heart. I think we talked about that.

Speaker E: Yeah, it's a lovely city.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so what, what I would love to hear about is how you use and have used product management in your regular life, whether with your family events, like whatever, um, ways that you have brought what you've learned as a product manager back into your, your personal world.

Speaker E: So I think there's different ways that I uh, like to apply it. Once, uh, a year me and my husband host like a dinner for like 30 people. Uh, and we love to use agile methods just to plan it out and to stay sane. So we have a huge Kanban board on the kitchen wall, um, where we plot out what are all the different dishes we want to do, what are all the different steps, um, and then just move them forward and track it like that. Um, in our home for the past few years we've actually been completely redesigning it and there I've been thinking a lot about like usability. How can you make um, the home easy to keep tidy, how can you make it easy to put things. And I think like product sense there helps to give you kind of this feeling for what's important, what's not important, how to think about things, how to um, Research the things and how to prioritize, um, the projects and the kind of things you want to focus on. Um, and that has been really, really helpful. Uh, it also helps. My husband is also in product. So for us it's kind of a common language of how do we understand the world, how do we structure our thinking in our work? Um, and that really helps. Uh, and when I built a co working space, um, a couple of years ago, there also product sense really helped

Speaker B: to think about, okay, what, what are

Speaker E: the things that are important to people in co working spaces? What are we offering? And the feedback I get at the moment from people is like, oh, God, you have this one setup that no other co working space has because we actually have like, ergonomic, uh, working places with big screens right from the start. Nobody has to bring them, they're just there. Um, and people love it because they're like, there's no other co working space that does it. And we kind of got this right measure of, um, coziness. But at the same time, it's a professional working space. And I think their product just really helped, like, um, going to different spaces and knowing how to do the research, what to look out for, knowing how to interview people. I think when you've been in this job for like 10 years, it just kind of becomes second nature. Everything you look at, you look at through these, the product lens,

Speaker C: I think I, I love most about this is hearing everybody's stories.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's so much fun. And like, we've had everything from, you know, planning my life roadmap from Alice, which I think is straight, very organized, very organized to I organized the pickleball tournament and needed a way to plan that. And I'm like, of course you did. From another, Another person. So it's, it is really, it's fun to hear the stories of how people, you know, find. Find their way. Um, one person shared, you know, how. How we plan our big holiday family meal. Right. And that's. I know other people who do that. I mean, you know, and it's super, super fun to see how we bring these things into our daily life.

Speaker C: Yeah. And what a cool time of year, um, to just reflect and, and realize that even though sometimes the job is hard, um, the skills that we've acquired as part of this job really do have a lasting impact on our lives and the people around us. Hopefully all for the better.

Speaker H: Yeah.

Speaker C: Ah, yeah.

Speaker B: No, you know, one of the things, and I think I've said this, maybe I said this on the podcast. I know, I said it to you. You know, I'm not. I don't. I didn't have a, uh. I had a pretty chaotic upbringing, let's say, say it that way, you know, And I didn't learn how to apologize in my childhood home.

Speaker H: We did.

Speaker B: That didn't happen much. Nobody ever said, hey, I'm sorry. I didn't learn necessarily how to be accountable from others. Right. Like, I knew how to take blame and feel guilty, but I didn't know how to feel account, how, uh, to take accountability in a way that didn't shame you.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And I didn't know necessarily how to communicate what I needed. I didn't learn that. And I will say, one of the things I'm so grateful for, since this is a Thanksgiving episode, is that product management taught me that at work, and I could bring that into my life.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: I brought those skills that I learned in the workplace with engineers and being able to say, yeah, I made a mistake, or, hey, um, that's on me. I own that. You know, without someone then shaming me. Right. I learned how to say, we need to do this or this won't work. I, um. This is what I need from everyone. I learned how to do those things in the context that was safe so that I could bring it back into my life and do it with my friends, do with my family, and say, hey, this. This is not working. These are my boundaries. We need some. We need to have different conversations. Right. That, for me, is. It's been a huge blessing,

Speaker G: and my

Speaker B: life is different because that's how. That's why I say I became a product manager. My life changed.

Speaker C: I love that, uh, I love that. I, uh. Yeah. I think that, um, I have profound moments of gratitude, not just for the skills I've learned, but the people that I've been able to connect with. Uh, case in point, my friend, um, you know, you make my life very, very much better. So thank you. Thank you for sticking with me all this time.

Speaker B: Yes. And someday we'll plan a project together and figure it out. Is a bit of a project for us sometimes.

Speaker C: Okay. But the funniest thing, and I don't know how many people know this, this podcast was born out of, um, lunch at a pub.

Speaker F: Yes.

Speaker C: Where in a split second, we were just like, we should totally do a podcast. And then, like, a week or two later, we're like, I got. We're doing a podcast, I guess.

Speaker B: Doing a podcast. Are we doing this right? Should we do it? I think Gina thought we would never really do it. I think he was like, yeah, yeah, you guys will say it, but you'll never do it. And we were like, I think he

Speaker C: should know by now that, like, once it's been said, it's already kind of halfway done.

Speaker B: We're doing this. Yeah, it's already done.

Speaker I: Yeah.

Speaker C: It just hasn't been fully realized in the world yet. It comes out of the mouth. It's done.

Speaker B: Um, exactly. And for people who say, like, you know, like, I've had people, and I know you have as well, watching your podcast or listening to your podcast sounds like just having coffee with some friends. And I'm like, yeah, that's what we're doing. Yeah, that's what we're doing. And I have loved my job when it has felt like the ease with which I live my life can kind of come into the work.

Speaker H: Yes.

Speaker C: Uh, right. Yes.

Speaker B: That. That my relationships at work could have some softness to them, like my friendships in the world and when I could just have. Have product flow, have how I build things flow.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: How I work with others flow. That's what I want. I would love all of us to work in a way that feels like we're just having coffee with a friend.

Speaker C: Right. And sometimes they're hard conversations, and sometimes you say things you don't want to hear, and sometimes you talk about prioritization. But it's not a battle. It's. It's a. It's a coalition towards a common goal.

Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Totally. And I think. I mean, part of that's. I think the reason why we've had. Several times have had the conversation here about how it didn't start easy.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Right. Between us. I want people to understand, like, you can work for a good friendship. We also haven't lived. We haven't lived in the same city in years. We've lived halfway around the world from each other.

Speaker D: And.

Speaker B: And if you work for it, you can be close. Yeah. You can show up for one another. If you find ways to do that, you can have deep relationships with people that don't live, you know, down the street. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I think that's important, and I think it's worthy of our gratitude. Right. To say it's been worth the work to say, hey, I have this friend, and I was just actually just telling somebody the other day that, you know, I've never had to go to DEFCON 5 of my. Of my needs with my friends, but I have a handful of people that if I said, I need you to get on a plane. I need You. That they would come, and you're on the list.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And, uh. And the same for you. If you said, I need you to get here, I'd be like, okay, let me see what I can. I'll be there as quick as I can.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker B: Um, out would come the Amex, and on my ass would go to a plane.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And. But that's. But that is cultivated because of, you know, depth and willingness to dig in and have hard conversations.

Speaker C: Yeah. It's all. It's all so incredibly worth it.

Speaker B: Totally. As hard as this job is, sometimes. As hard as the job is sometimes. Sometimes.

Speaker C: It's funny. It's the job everybody wants, but they don't actually understand the work that goes into it. Like, I. I love people that are just like, well, I'll. You know, I'll be the product manager. And you're like, I love it because my best friend's an accountant and she's a product manager now. But, like, there's skills in here that are more than just, does the math work? Like, people. People are. People are very. People. Often logical. Yeah.

Speaker B: No, And I mean that. That stuff doesn't happen. I mean, we've had that conversation. Engineers who become product managers, you eventually have to kick them out of the code. Accountants who become product managers, you eventually have to tell them to stop counting the money. Like, you have to, like, stop doing that. You have to stop looking at that and come look at this. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that, like, it's. You have to still go acquire the actual skills.

Speaker C: Can you fall in love with the problem versus constantly just jumping to solution?

Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. So enjoy this episode, and if you have things and ways that you're using product management in your life, we would love to hear about them. Please leave us messages or comments and we will respond and we'll see you soon.

Speaker C: Also, like, but think a challenge, Leah. Uh, like, we just. We, like, what. What if we just kind of said, hey, listen, like, in the spirit of gratitude, in the spirit of the season, like, go and build. Go and go and foster a relationship with one other person.

Speaker G: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, potentially.

Speaker C: Go get it.

Speaker B: Totally. Totally. And if there's that person that you're like, oh, I really want to be friends with them, but it's complicated. Try harder. Try a little bit harder. Open yourself up.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Awesome. I'm so glad we're friends.

Speaker C: Me too. Thank you.