Disrupting the Dating Industry with John Cooper

Speaker A: I mean, I'm not saying this because we're friends, but I will never talk to a guy in a bar. I would rather talk to a female bartender if I'm alone. I would almost never go alone to, you know, to a bar. So I'm right there with you. That it just feels icky. And for me it's like not attractive to, to have to talk to a guy first or something.

Speaker B: Uh, well, he's putting you into your masculine. That's why it's immediately putting you into your masculine.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, and like you said, it's like the natural state of a woman or for a woman to feel valued as much she's receiving or inspiring or attracting or things like that. If I have to get something, it feels like a job.

Speaker B: And by the way, that's okay in business, like, you know, being a go getter. One thing I noticed with working with these women and, uh, I taking them out, they were all headstrong business women. They would like the top of their job with lots of people working underneath them. Right. But they, they couldn't take themselves out of that energy and then come into a social setting and just relax and soften and open and, you know, it's as if they were still in that kind of go get a headstrong, uh, energy. And it, the only people they're going to attract is the men that are feminine who are going to receive their masculine energy. And that's what creates the polarity. Entrepreneurs love talking about business. However, it's no secret there's also so many things they love talking about which are not about business. In the sea of business podcasts, none of your business business is a refreshing break. A, uh, surprise kiss, an afternoon fizz. Through Carla Singson's cheeky and radical takes on mundane and principle heavy topics, you'll gain insights that guarantee you something to talk about on your first Tinder date while visiting grandma.

Speaker A: Or if you want to impress your new client.

Speaker B: Big thanks to Proximity Outsourcing for sponsoring this episode. Outsource the most tedious marketing and management tasks in your agency for less than $15 an hour, fully managed.

Speaker A: When you're tired of hiring cheap, unreliable talent.

Speaker B: Check out proximity outsourcing.com for more info. Tired of business podcasts? Uh, tune into none of your business new episodes monthly.

Speaker A: All right, good morning and welcome to another episode of none of your business in business. A lot of times we're so focused on the money or we're focused on our books, how much we're selling, what our projections look like. And you might remember one of my past episodes with Cameron Williams. You guys gotta check that out. He is a fractional CFO and he helps entrepreneurs really look at their businesses in a and their finances in a certain way. But today we're gonna talk about the funner part, the human part, the connection part of business. I genuinely believe that if I honestly wasn't a little bit more extroverted, maybe a little too friendly and a little too obsessed about making more friendships and people, I don't think I'll be in my position in business. So last year actually, I met a really awesome guy. His name is John Cooper. He is the founder of Social Heartistry, a unique coaching platform that blends social confidence training with creative expression. His work draws on his background as an art director to help individuals, couples and, and companies unlock authentic communication, strengthen relationships, and awaken the heart in social interactions. So not a lot of people might know this, but John is also a disruptor in the dating industry. He was pushing back against the transactional pickup style approach. Rolls eyes here as a woman, and instead teaching a more heart led, authentic way of connecting human. He was the head coach with women's famous dating coach, Matthew Hussey. Only every woman I know has had a crush on Matthew Hussey. And then after that he went solo, uh, running workshops around the world, predominantly focusing on men and helping them become better men for themselves, for others and for their community. So, John, thank you so much for accepting my invitation. How are you?

Speaker B: Oh, no, I'm pumped, um, to do this. Thank you so much for having me on. We've got lots to talk about.

Speaker A: I know, I know. I'm so, so curious about like, your experience in the dating world. I'm actually currently reading Neil Strauss's latest, uh, book, uh, I forgot what it is, but it was his like, coming back into, like, relationships and, um, and him thinking about, uh, when he left all that pickup world. So have you heard the truth?

Speaker B: The truth? Yeah. Well, what's funny about that, Carla, is he wrote a book called the Game.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: That forged this whole industry about how to game women, how to use tactics, how to use these strategies of, you know, like hypn this and like bells and whistles tricks to kind of somehow hoodwink women into bed. Right?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Uh, my book I wrote was called Game over and it was actually, that's what my book was as a disruptor in that industry to show actually a lot of that doesn't work. Um, and it's just there because people think they need to use all these strategies and lines and techniques, it's somehow going to win a girl over. It doesn't really work. And I'm going to explain why throughout this show.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I love that because most of my friends are also well read women. And when we were single, we, we all read the game, we were, we were all single. We would make jokes about like, hey, do you want to go brunch on this? Do you want to do nails here? And we would make jokes like, are you nagging me? Are you like using all of the terminologies? And it was just so funny. Um, but that also, you know, led us to like, not pick guys. We're just trying to do these things to us. Um, so you've been a disruptor in the dating industry. What exactly was it that you wanted to disrupt? And why did the old pickup artist style feel so wrong to you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, great question. Why did I disrupt it and why did it need to be disrupted? I think I need to sort of go back a step, if that's okay, and explain how I even ended up as a dating coach. Right. Because that's slightly unorthodox, uh, for, for most people to hear. But I was an art director. That was my path, that was my trajectory. Um, I was working in various advertising agencies. And one thing that I noticed from art itself that I learned was that art is about visual communication. It's about expressing yourself. It's about being the individual and not worrying what anyone else thinks. It's about, um, you know, doing it for yourself, not for anyone else's gratification. If they, if they don't, doesn't matter. That's what being a real artist is, you know, and also, no artist is the same. Artists are the same. So, you know, everyone's got their unique style about them. That's what actually makes an artist. So that was kind of my foundation of, of learning art from university upwards. But then what happened is a girl broke my heart. My first love broke my heart. And she, we had this like real snow. She was like a little snow white to me. Like little birds would cheat when, you know, she's around that kind of little angel, my, my kind of princess. And when that, when she ended the relationship, it hit me so hard, Carla, that I ended up going back to my mum's. My mum was. My friends are bringing me food in bed. I was going yellow. I, you know, it just as an absolute waste of space. It really, really broke my heart. And my friend said to me, look, John, you've got to sort your life out. Do something about this. So I went straight to the bookshop, I went onto the bookshelves and I was trying to find books, you know, on how to get your ex back. That's what I was actually trying to find books, you know, how to win your ex back was actually what I was looking for in the self help section.

Speaker A: Oh, you bought a lot of, uh, you, you gave ClickBank a lot of money.

Speaker B: I did. I, I went through all these self help books, how to get your ex back to develop your psychology, all this sort of stuff. And of course in the bookshelf was the book called the game that we've just been talking about by Neil Strauss. And this book is obviously his journal into him going into the underground of these American pickup artists and learning all the best techniques to become the number one pickup artist in the world. That's the kind of the story of it. And uh, it's probably about 50 true, that book from what I know after and speaking to a lot of coaches. But so I got into this and I ended up becoming my own coach. I started to learn a lot about this dating material, but the pickup dating material, all these learning all these manipulation strategies and negging like you said, and you know, um, disqualifying and qualifying and doing all these like crazy things and chick cracks and negative, you know, like all this stuff. And I did it for a while and I realized I was talking to loads more women. But for some reason there was something not quite clicking with me. And uh, my friend, my best friend said to me, john, what's happened to you? I said, what do you mean? I'm talking to all these girls. He goes, no, no, something's up, something's off with you. And I went, look, John, I want you to do something for me. I want everything you've learned, Stick it in a box and just go out there and just go back to being John again. And I said, I can't do that. I just, I wouldn't be in control because I'd learned all this theory about how to, you know, pick up girls and stuff, right? So anyway, I went down. Instead of doing that, I just kept on going, learning more theory, more manipulations, more strategies, more hypnosis, more. I mean, I'm literally learning how to hypnotize a girl. I mean, that's just how sad, how awful is, you know, Harry Potter trying to somehow hypnotize her into bed? I mean, it's just. So anyway, so I realized that as I became my own Coach. And I was doing this even had a. When meetup was more popular. It was, it was, it was called um, PUA London. And I was holding workshops, doing talks, doing these boot camps, all this sort of stuff. I even joined a company in Australia who were called the Natural Lifestyle. So I thought, oh, this is nice, this is more natural. But something didn't sit right with me when I was it. I could see that the people that I was working with, students I was working with, it seemed to me as though they were all same brokenheartedness that I. And I didn't feel as though what they were doing and all the things they were teaching them, such as approach the target and work out the arm, her bit shield, use your wingman and do a field report a minute. You know, it's like being in the army. And I realized the reason why they're using all this military language to, to talk to, uh, a woman is because they see her as a threat. Like, because if they don't get what they need, then they're going to feel low and empty and it's going to reinforce that brokenheartedness within them. So they actually see women that want to talk to us, the opposition, as the enemy. And of course you're going to get the anxiety and of course they're going to struggle and they're going to really like be attached to them and need the outcome and really need something because they're, they're already framing it as they're the. And they're using this military terminology to kind of conquer her.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And mixed in with that, you'll also notice a lot of the sales language, such as, you know, the opening, closing, the close.

Speaker A: Yes, opening and close.

Speaker B: I mean, it's like, uh, sales language. So we need to close the deal and all this sort of seal the deal. And so when you put that sales language with the military language, you're like, that is not a healthy frame to just go and talk to someone and just be open hearted and just let things flow.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I had this really amazing experience, Carla. I was coaching with them and I was also on the tipping point of feeling like something was off. I remember being in Serbia and I remember the sun was shining. I was coaching and I was. All my students had gone off with girls and so this is great. And I remember I just didn't need anything in that moment. I didn't need to kind of fill my bed. I was full, you know, and the sun was shining. I felt great. I felt really fulfilled. And something switched me and I Went, I don't need to take anything. I don't need to control anything. I'm just do something beautiful. And where there was a Someone, uh, walking around like a charity worker. I gave her some dinars because I was in Serbia, gave me some dinars. And currently she gave me a card, a postcard. And in that moment, I had this thing where I go, you know what? I'm just going to write a beautiful message on this card, and I'm just going to give it out to someone just to make their day. I just had this feeling of wanting to. You know that feeling of overflow where you just want to.

Speaker A: Right. Your heart is open. Yes.

Speaker B: And you just want. It's almost like sending a message in a bottle. You just want to. Just for the sake of it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I just had this, like, creative sparkle from writing this note. And it just said something soppy, like, um, I just want you to know you're beautiful. Now let someone else have that bit of love, you know, something like that. Something soppy and a bit sappy. And I was walking around holding this card. I was making eye contact with everyone, and I realized I don't need to approach. I don't need to get anything. I don't need to take. I don't need to manipulate. I don't need to control anyone. All I have to do is just give out this beautiful gift, this gesture. And just by knowing that and feeling the intention of that, I started to come alive. I started to twinkle with this creativity and this. This impulse for, you know, human, uh, connection can feel like it's almost. People are looking at me different. I'm almost radiating something. Something else. Right? Because I'm no longer coming from that parasitic energy of trying to get more. Like an overflowing fountain here. And in the end, I just walk down the promenade, uh, and I make eye contact with a girl. And I think, right, I'm gonna go and give her the card. But as I walk around, I just hold the eye contact, I hold the energy that I'm feeling at the moment. Say hi. And she says, hi. And I say, uh, who are you? She says, fine, thank you. She misheard me. And I just said, should we go for a walk? I said, yeah. And there was no strategy. There was no manipulation. There was not none of that military language. It just unfolded. It was just, you know, it was just flowing, you know. And then as we were walking down the street, I handed her the card. She started crying, and. And, uh, we then connected for the rest of the trip. And she was. We went out and she's one of the most special girls in my life. All meant, I'm saying, from. It was definitely from that moment. But I realized when all the other pickup artists came back to me and like John, I just did a cold approach and I didn't. I didn't disarm her well enough, and I didn't work around the bitch or I didn't disqualify and qualify. And I suddenly realized, hang on a minute, this is all wrong. This is all coming. What you're doing is all coming from a broken heart and emptiness. And from that emptiness, if you can imagine there's an abandonment issue or some kind of empty, empty hole there, they're looking to fill the hole constantly with girls, with validation, with numbers, whatever it is, they need that to feel whole.

Speaker A: Because it's empty, because they're empty. Their default is empty.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So from their default of empty, they're needing to fill it from things from the outside world to temporarily fill themselves. And what I experienced in that moment was like what I call not filling a hole, but feeling whole. W H O L E Just content, fulfilled, calm, peaceful. And then from that place, it was like my heart was like a sun radiating outwards. And it was like, imagine you're the sun. If I shine on you, Carl, if, if you step in the shade, the sun doesn't care, right? And if you get a suntan, great. That's the connection. But if you step in the shade, the sun isn't going to care. And actually, that's the place that I reached from that was. I was like, there's no approaching, there's no needing to fill the hole. It's just feeling whole and letting that come out, just shining, just radiating outwards onto people. And some people you're going to connect with, other others you're not. And even if they don't, it doesn't matter. And from that, I became a disruptor in the industry. And I actually created this whole philosophy called social heart history. And it's about taking these guys and working with them and actually showing them. Actually, this need to fill the hole is coming from a broken heart. It's coming from some emptiness in there that you need to fill to make yourself feel whole again. And that's not the way it works. So I encourage these people to work on themselves, find out what that trauma is, open the heart and come from that place of unconditionality. And this became, yeah, it was a disruptive industry. In the men's dating industry, it Became uh, I, uh, got quite a lot of hates as you can imagine, because I'm going against the PUA matrix. The pickup matrix.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But you know, I feel like this is actually the healthiest form. Meeting people just coming from that place of being the social artist as well, where you're just expressing yourself like the artist coming from the heart. And some people are going to like it, like the art, some people are going to like the art, some people aren't. It doesn't matter. You just express for yourselves, for yourself. And where there's a connection, that's where the connection is. And if they don't like you, it doesn't matter. And I did that. Yeah. And I've been, I uh, been doing that for about 10 years and um, I'm relaunching soon to bring this to the young generation.

Speaker A: Oh my gosh. I'm really excited for you and thank you. As a woman, I 100% agree, um, on that. And also I actually have some friends in the RSD world. Um, and some of these male coaches, they have also eventually transitioned into men's coaching. More transformational. When they all left the pickup world, they delved into real life transformation for men and honoring what men can bring to the world. Instead of what you said, oh, I'm a man, I have to get something because I feel empty and I have to get this girl and get this money and all of that feeling. I also feel like there's also a huge wave of media, um, and a lot of repetitive messaging on men being measured in, being measured by their value just according to like the money that they make or their height or things like that. Um, there's a lot of like materialistic, like hypergamous like um, messaging from women too. That unfortunately is also toxic. But um, and that's why I get like, a lot of men are confused about like these, this, these types of messaging. So when you started to like teach a more heart led approach, like social artistry, what was the reaction from like the men, especially the coaches who have been exposed to and have always been teaching a transactional way of dating. Any memorable shifts? Any I don't know, particular arguments?

Speaker B: Oh yeah, loads. I mean, firstly it didn't make sense to them because if you can imagine it's they're operating in one particular paradigm, one way of doing it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. So for them they know no different. That's the only way to get a girlfriend. Right. So when I start talking about one of my key principles is giving, just expressing giving, they don't Understand that. Because when I explain giving in the context that I've described as in you just, you're bringing yourself out to people unconditionally, just expressing. Yeah, they giving as in just giving a girl, uh, a bunch of roses and hope you. Yeah. You know, like giving to get. They, they can't see giving as a form of connection. And just like the overlap between two people, I'm going to share myself unconditionally. You can meet me in that overlap. They see when I talk about giving, they just go, well, why would I want to give something? Because I'm not going to. That doesn't work. They think about it that way. So they. There isn't a lack of awareness for a lot of people to what I was teaching, especially from the pickup artist industry, they just could not get it. Because when, when you're entrenched in one particular way of doing something, one modus operandi, it's very difficult to see any other alternative to that. But there were some people in the industry and a certain students that got it. They were a little bit more aware.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Maybe a little bit more spiritual, whatever you want to call it, that they resonated with it. And I didn't want to go for the, the kind of the mainstream folk because that's not my crowd. I mean, I even called it social Hardestry, knowing it would put off a lot of the people that thought that's it, you know, why do I want the heart? I don't want that. So I like that I did that on purpose because I only, I wanted quality people to work with me who really get it.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Really, really, really get it. But yeah, I got a lot of smear campaigns and people saying, you know, this is all nonsense and why would you want to give? And you know, it's all about taking. And so yeah, I did rub, rub up against the system. But then I noticed that you mentioned rsd, um, they started taking bits from my book Game over. And that's so cool. They're actually taking verbatim parts of my book and actually talking, um, in front of the camera. And I was like, oh, there we go. I'm clearly chipping away at the, uh, the system here. When they're.

Speaker A: Did they credit you?

Speaker B: Oh, no, of course not.

Speaker A: No, I'm gonna tell them. Yeah.

Speaker B: Because there's a bit in my book where I said, you've got to take off the pickup goggles. And then, uh, Julian, as soon as my book came out a couple weeks later, does a video about how you need to take up, take off the pickup. Goggles, even use the word goggles, you know. Um, so anyway, look, I don't care because the whole purpose is I'm giving unconditionally.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. And you are. Yeah. And you are creating a change in the world, which is like your bigger mission anyway. Right. So, um, very quickly you work closely with Matthew Hussey, very big brand in the industry before going solo. What did you learn from that chapter? And what do you. What did you know you had to do differently once you stepped in your own lane?

Speaker B: Yeah, great question. Um, so working with Matt was a good experience. I was, um. One of the interesting things that I did was I used to take 20 women to a nightclub, to a bar on a Saturday and Sunday. No, sorry, Friday and Saturday. And you know, obviously take them out and get them talking to guys. Right. So that was my first experience.

Speaker A: You're like a pimp.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, well, now you mentioned it actually. Yeah. Because I was making money.

Speaker A: You're like the guy, the one guy with a 20 girls in the club.

Speaker B: Oh, God, yeah. Uh, didn't think of it like that. Uh, um, so I was going out with them. God, the pimp. I never thought of that. Um, but no, I was getting them to, to talk to the, The m. Men in the bar. And they were. Actually had quite a good experience with that. Um, and I was doing that for, you know, quite a long time. But one thing that I said I, I noticed and I mentioned to Matt is, um, you can't use the same, uh, strategy to he, you know, that was being used for men to talk to women with women. I personally don't believe that. And so he was encouraging them to uh, in his talks to go and approach men in the bar. That was his theory when he used to do talks. And I didn't agree with that, actually. I, I think that we're feminine and masculine. And yes, there's elements of feminine within my masculine. There's elements of masculine within your feminine. But I think our primary tool set is mind's. Masculine and women's are feminine. And within that, the masculine is about externalizing, moving, uh, towards trajectory. Um, you know, sort of slightly more, uh, not, I don't say objectifying, but more about that kind of focus on the outcome a little bit more the object. And then feminine is more about reception opening, uh, receiving, softening. And that's why I don't think if you were to give the man and give it to a woman. I don't think that's the, The Right thing. I actually think that you have to work with the polarity of men and women and feminine and masculine and get women to really drop into her feminine and soften and open and radiate and invite and allow and.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Encourage men and inspire men to walk over to them. You know, and women. And I. I was actually teaching them that, uh, on the workshop and Matt was actually teaching the opposite of like he was saying, go. Teaching women to go and approach men in the bar. And at that point I actually realized that was probably the tension point where I realized, actually, I don't feel comfortable with your theory. Yeah, I. I want to teach women how to. They can make the first move. Yeah, exactly. So women's energy is more magnetic and men's is more electrical. That's how I define it. It's more of a, uh, charge. Men's more of an electrical charge, and women's more magnetic. That's how you create the electromagnetic. That's how you actually create attraction. Electromagnetic attraction. The spark and the. And the magnetism. So that's kind of why I broke solo. I wanted to really focus on what I believe work between the sexes and bring that into my work more.

Speaker A: Effy. Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying this because we're friends, but I will never talk to a guy in a bar. I would rather talk to a female bartender if I'm alone. I would almost never go alone to, you know, to a bar. So I'm right there with you. That. It just feels icky. It's. And for me, it's like not attractive to. To have to talk to a guy first or something.

Speaker B: Uh, well, he's putting you into your masculine. That's why it's immediately putting you into your masculine.

Speaker A: Yeah. And. And like you said, it's like the natural, um, the natural state of a woman or for a woman to feel valued as much as she's receiving or inspiring or attracting or things like that. If I have to get something, it feels like a job.

Speaker B: Uh, and look. And by the way, that's okay in business, like, you know, being a go getter. You, like you're a go getter in your business, but there's the times to switch it on and switch it off. You know, in the personal life, it's good to be. Drop into that softness and that openness and receive and be met. M. You know, but if you maintain. Because one thing I noticed with working with these women and, uh, I taking them out, they were all headstrong business women. They would like the top of their job with lots of people working underneath them. Right. But they, they couldn't take themselves out of that energy and then come into a social setting and just relax and soften and open and you know, it's as if they were still in that kind of go get a headstrong, you know, energy. And it's the, the only people they're going to attract is the men that, uh, are feminine who are going to receive their masculine energy. And that's what, that's what creates the diner, the polarity.

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker B: So that's why I was encouraging them to just the uh, women just to soften a little bit open. And when I see soften it, that, that's not an insult. That's actually just. There's, there's a, there's a real. It feels like a pejorative, but it's not. It's just to be soft, open and, and allowing. That's actually what creates the attraction in that moment. So that's kind of what, where I brought a lot of that theory into my own work solo.

Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. Um, in your program Social Hardistry Academy, you mentioned that you focus mostly on Gen Z. Gen Z is growing up in the world where almost everything is filtered to us through a screen. Why do you think authentic in person connection has become such a rare skill?

Speaker B: Authentic in person connection? Yeah, because I guess people just, uh, constantly looking at their screens, not when they're going out. They're not actually making eye contact with people, not seeing the opportunities. Because we remember what life was like when we used to go and we used to. People watch. Do you remember that you'd sit in a cafe, Carla. Right. And you just watch the world go by. That doesn't happen anymore.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: You know, so, um, so that people are just locked onto their phones, they're missing out on all this opportunity. In fact, there was one person told me that they went to a, um, a hostel and they were sat in the living room living area on the sofa and they were on. Both on. This guy was on Tinder and there was a girl on Tinder and they were in the room together and they were both swiping on Tinder and they matched with each other and then they kept swiping and they didn't even realize they were actually in the room together.

Speaker A: Oh my God.

Speaker B: To each other.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, isn't that crazy that they actually, they had to wait until they met on an app, but they were actually in front of each other. This is what we're Talking about.

Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. I think that also, like, a lot of. We have handed over a lot of our life to screens. Like, we work on a screen, our entertainment's in front of a screen. Even if we have to learn something, it's in front of a screen. Right. All of our meditations, all of our. Even when we're pooping, um, we entertain ourselves through a screen. Right. And so sometimes I mindfully, like, I mindfully tell myself, okay, take a screen break, go for a walk, go for a phoneless walk or something like that. But, uh, tell me about Social Hardestry Academy. Like, what was the vision? And how does, how does this program actually help get young people to develop real world confidence?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think especially in the last five years as well, when we had this social distancing, I think that really damaged some of the younger generation, you know, a very critical time of their development. And so this is almost like a tagline for this academy that I'm putting together is the Social Undistancing Project. That's kind of my, um, on words. But we really need to start to, to get people away or at least locked into their smartphones and just seeing the opportunity around them and seeing the connection they can have with people. So when, what I teach is when you're walking around, instead of seeing, it's like there's a girl that I can get sex or I can make her my girlfriend. I see it a little bit like I'm opening myself up. There's potential best friends, potential great stories to be shared, potential great recommendations for restaurants, or potential people they can introduce me to, potential people that I can meet and they can introduce me so I can network better. Uh, there's so much opportunity in every single person. Every single person you meet is a treasure chest of possibilities that you can go down that can create something for you. Maybe not directly, but maybe indirectly, your life can be changed just from one thing that one person tells you. Now, if you see this person, let's say you're attracted to a girl, the street, and you think, I'm only interested in having sex with her. And you go up to her and she just says, like, go away. Okay. You're just missing out on the fact that she's not. She's more than an object, she's a subject.

Speaker A: Right? Right.

Speaker B: She's got all these, uh, she's got a whole life and she's got a whole friendship circle. She's got a whole history of work and stories and, and you're only trying to get in there for One thing, you're forgetting the rest like, and if you see the world in that sense of everyone is like a treasure chest, a pool of potential, potential lovers, best friends, great stories to share. Then you can just explore the field of potential. Like, like, uh, being in a lucid dream where you know that you're the creator and the participant simultaneously and nothing bad can happen. At the moment, people are so frightened of what are people going to think of me. And oh, I don't want to get rejected. If you can switch that up to. I just want to create and co create with people. And so that the reason for this academy is to create that shift. Because at the moment, these young generation, all they have is Andrew Tate, um, maybe some, some kind of outdated pickup artist stuff. Bonnie Blue. Yeah. God, I beat the final boss. I don't know if he's come to America yet. But you know, all these characters and

Speaker A: then your nervous system is disgusted by her because you started coughing.

Speaker B: Oh my God. So I mean we've got, you know, this is all they have. And this is like these tick tock influencers kind of giving them all this.

Speaker A: Right, right. Reality TV shows. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: It's, it's real like bubble gum advice I would call it. You know, it's not healthy. It's sort of slightly narcissistic, egotistical. Yeah, very acquisition based, very needy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I just want to show up as a wise elder. I mean I'm not that old, but you know, older and really show them a healthy path that isn't too, isn't. I'm not teaching how to be the nice guy, I'm not teaching that. I'm not teaching how to be the narcissistic bad boy. I'm just showing how to lead assertively with like compassionately as well. So that it's. The woman you're talking to is enjoying it and you're leading and she like every moment you're tuned in with her and she's feeling good rather than just seeing her in this military sense. If I need to pick her up and use all these military strategies, that's the outdated way. And I want to get, I want to start teaching this to the younger generation so they really know how to sharpen the world was very healthy. Um, great for them, Great for the people they're talking to. Good for the self esteem. You're not coming from a place of inadequate inadequacy or needing to fill their hole, like just feeling good. And it's just expressing themselves like an artist. I think that I Think for me it's the purest dating method, what I teach. I really believe it. And um. And yeah, I just think it's a good time to get in there with the Gen Z's and, and start them off on the right path, you know, so that's kind of why I wanted to focus on them.

Speaker A: Yeah. I have a question for you. So I really like the idea of thinking that every person is a treasure trove. Treasure trove, easy for you to say. Of experiences, of, uh, possible friendships, business opportunities, Opportunities to learn about yourself. That's what I always thought when I was single, whenever I would go on a first date, I always mentally prepare myself to have a good time. I'm prepared to be fascinated. I'm prepared to ask stories, listen to them and learn from them. And then if it's not a very good date, I don't think I'm going to see this person again, I go home and learn something about myself. And so that has actually made, I would say, almost 100% of my, my dates or my first dates pretty good. I had that, that, that kind of mindset coming to it. But sometimes you just meet, I'm so sorry to use this word, you just meet boring people. So, yes, you can swear on this podcast I rated it 18 plus. But let me ask you, John. Yeah. So what if you meet a, uh, typically, or what society would consider a super boring person, what do you do? Do you teach this in your program?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, I come into it and I want to talk a bit about sales and how this. Actually there's a parallel between all this and sales in a little while. But like, I'm the same with you. I'm go, I go into these interactions and what I teach is into in the interactions is that you're going in there, you're going to bring out what you've got into the interaction and then you're going to open space for them to bring what they have to the table. And it's in the overlap is where the connection is, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: If this person isn't bringing enough or they're giving one on, um, one word answers to what you're saying and just shut down, then it's important. And this is what I teach with the guys, is you must have boundaries of people and that those boundaries are your value system, you know, So I would not, um, let's say a lot, guys, as soon as they see a beautiful girl, they're immediately sold, yes, I'll sleep with her. Whereas I think women are different when, when they see a hot guy, they go no. Or maybe with guys it's when they see a hot girl, it's yes or hell yes. You know what I mean? There's, there's no, there's nothing they need to be sold on. A guy is just immediately sold straight away.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: When I'm teaching, when you go into a day, into an interaction, you come from a place of these are my values. And if you don't meet me on those thick etiquette values, then actually this isn't going to work. You shouldn't come from a place of I need to get help, need to say whatever it takes to get. And even if they're boring and quiet, I'll just do whatever it takes to make it work. If this person is really not matching your energy, who you are, your values, whatever's going on, then that's just nothing. You know, you can try and help them open it up a little bit more, but if they stay like that, that's just not a good fit. You shouldn't be trying to control the interaction to try and still, which what a lot of guys do, they'll do whatever it takes with this boring person to still get them into it. You know, I don't teach that. I would say that you're, you have to have values in there. And if they're giving you crappy answers or sometimes if a girl's on their phone and you're talking, um, on a date and you might be talking to actually suddenly on her phone for a bit, like my values, I have boundaries. And I say, excuse me, if you're going to be on your phone, I'm just going to go. Just let me know what, what you'd like to do right now, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Because I'm happy, I'm, I'm happy to walk away at any, at any point.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: And again, this is, I want to talk about. This is the same for sales. If you're coming at it like, I need this sale and I'm going to do whatever it takes to control this person into a close, then you've got no boundaries. You've got to be able to say every one point, you know what? This isn't a good fit for what we have. And I think I would like to say that I don't think we should work together. But most sales closers can't even do that because all they're thinking about is making sure they're getting their sealing the deal right thing. So we're talking to someone who's boring. I mean, yeah, you can try and take the reins of the conversation more. You can lead, you can tell a story. You can bring a higher energy into it to inspire them a little bit. You can try and connect with them a little bit more. You can say, hey, I'm noticing that you're a little bit, um, shy. You. Okay, you can try moving the environment, try and move to a different location, but if they are just, just plain boring, then, hey, it's okay to walk away.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, that's right. That's what, that's what I actually did in that particular, uh. I had this date a long time ago with someone, and he was just so boring, giving me one word answers, and I'm like, oh, my God. I. I don't like this. I don't like doing the heavy lifting. And so, you know, it was. Thankfully, it was a lunch and we ended and then he was like, oh, oh, you're leaving now? I said, oh, yeah, because, you know, we got the bill and, uh, I don't. I don't feel like drinking. And he was like, okay, um, but he was, like, trying to prolong, like, the interaction. He was, can, can. Can we just go shopping? Like, he said that. And I'm like, what do you mean? He was like, why don't you pick up a few things and I'll pay for it. Uh, just to prolong the interaction.

Speaker B: Torture.

Speaker A: The torture.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: And in my head, I'm like, no, because this is already a terrible experience. I want this experience to be with a human, not like a credit card. And so I just said, thank you. I lied, actually. I said, actually, have a meeting and whatever. I know other girls would be like, yes, let's do it. But I just felt bad for him mostly, honestly, that he thought that that was the only way to keep me, uh, to keep me on the date. Yeah. So I actually just felt sad about it and I went home and just, like, thought about it and I don't know, like, prayed for him or something. Pray for you. Pray for you.

Speaker B: I'll tell you what, there's one thing that I got from the whole, um, pickup artist community that I do sometimes use, and it's that if I go on a date and I'm not quite sure what this person's going to be like, I will. I will sometimes say, look, I've got. I've got. I've got three hours, and I've got to just go after three hours, you know, and then that actually at least allows me that out. If I have to.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: And then if I, if I am with them and then actually we're getting on, they probably won't even ask me about that three hour hard stop. They'll just, they're happy just to keep going with me.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So actually that, that is actually one thing that I might encourage.

Speaker A: I know, I know. Yeah. Let's, let's. Our listeners can definitely glean, uh, a lot from that. Um, so let's talk about human connection like beyond dating. So social anxiety and loneliness right now they say are at all time highs despite us being like more connected or appearing to be more connected online. From your perspective, what is like the missing, missing ingredient? Why is there an epidemic of loneliness right now?

Speaker B: I think it's the smartphone, uh, cases. You know, people are doing stories but not creating real stories. You know, they're, they've got more Facebook friends and Instagram friends, but not, they're not nurturing real friends. They're stuck on their screens. They're um, lost actual talking to people. And they'd rather like that, that story telling you about being in the hostel where they'd rather swipe and talk to someone rather than actually talk to the person sat opposite them on the sofa. I think that's kind of. The smartphones haven't helped, I believe.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And um, and also the, uh, yeah, the kind of. We've become more atomized. You know, people are more kind of lonely in that sense. And they're not, they're losing even their social circle a little bit because they can just connect on their phone to their friends. They're not meeting up, not developing that strong social circle, not going out as much like they used to. They're staying in a lot more now.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So all that kind of thing is contributing to it. Uh, in terms of anxiety, you mean kind of like social anxiety, like kind of talking to others?

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I, I met a lot of people that. Oh, I've seen a lot of people that are like just choosing to be single, choosing to be celibate because they, they have uh, like some social anxiety of like meeting people or they've just like given up on, on that. And then of course there's some people who have gotten increasingly just honestly scared of being in public too. I don't know, I. Over the pandemic, I definitely saw more people being more dependent on like antidepressants or pills like Xanax or something like that that help with anxiety. So. And I haven't heard these messages like when I was younger, so I don't know if it's social media or my access to Internet, now that I'm more exposed to it or is like society changing.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I, I help, um, guys and, and girls with, uh, what's known as approach anxiety. This is something that's a term when you see someone you want to talk to. The current wording for this is you're getting approach anxiety because you know, you need to approach her. Uh, this is the kind of the. You might have heard this before. M. For me, this is already setting up, setting yourself up for a fall. Because why would you use the word approach when you see someone you want to talk to? Because I don't approach my mum in the kitchen. Uh, I don't know about you, but I don't approach my mum. Right, yeah. So why using that word even? Because you approach a bomb, you approach the edge of a cliff.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Approach that sensitive issue at work.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It's a word associated with danger and trepidation and it has to go well, otherwise there's something, you know, something, there's some kind of, you know, bad result that's going to come from that. So why even use that wording? So a lot of people are kind of taking that and they're walking around and they're thinking, like, I need to go and approach that guy. To go and approach that person over here was. What I'm trying to say is remove that away and just come from a place of. I call it just unfolding, expressing, giving and just move around. Like, like I said before, like being in a lucid dream where you're the creator and the participant together. And I, I have little exercises that I do to kind of work through this anxiety.

Speaker A: Oh, perfect.

Speaker B: One of the things I do is, um, I start off my guys and I've got this on the program on the academy. I get them to go around. The first thing I do is going around to beg for money from people. They have to beg.

Speaker A: Oh my God.

Speaker B: Yeah, they have to beg for money. And I asked them after, I said, how do you feel doing that? And they go, yeah, I feel terrible, you know, I feel a creep, you know. And then I say to them, okay, what, what money have you got? And they said, I've got like, okay, uh, a ten note kind of thing. I said, all I want you to do now is just give it away to someone. That's it, just give it away and just walk off, you know, or a coin or a euro. And now I want to give it out to someone and Then before you know it, they give it, they're going around just like handing it out, no problem. And then sometimes what happens is you, you'd give out, I don't have it on. You give out a note. And a lot of people like, I don't want it because they, they, because they think this, this, right? You know, if you give them money, they're going to go, I don't want it. What's the catch here? Yeah, a lot of people will reject you hand giving them money, right? You can imagine that. Big cities, a bit dangerous, right? So then at that moment something else happens. So they, they didn't accept the money, they don't accept the gift. And then I speak to the students and I say, how do you feel that they didn't accept your ten dollar note? And they go, I don't care. I said, why not? I go, well, I've still got the ten dollar note. I'm not, that doesn't affect me.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: I'm like, okay, that's interesting. Uh, some students don't get, don't get it. And they go, no, I feel rejected. And I said, why do you feel rejected? And they said, well, they didn't do what I wanted them to do. Um, and you see the difference there. One is just okay with whatever got the value and the other one is thinking I didn't control them to do what I wanted them to do.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: That's the pickup artist mentality. That's the thing of needing outcomes and trying to control the outcome. So, so when I say to them, okay, they did a note, how do you feel? I feel great. I've still got what I wanted to give. I'm like, okay, now put the money, put the money down. I just want you to say hi to people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then they say hi. And then let's say some ignore them. It's the ones that go, I feel rejected. Like, why are you feeling rejected? Well, I wanted to control them to want to say hi back. Here we go. Uh, some people internalize it and they say hi. They walk off and I say to them, how do you feel? I said, I feel fine. Why? Because I'm the value. I still have what I had to. I still have what I wanted to give. Like the money. You are the value. You're just, you're offering it out like an invitation to people and if they want it, great. If they don't, you're still you, you can still get what you wanted to give. That's this, that's the Disruption in the industry. That's the turning point. That's the paradigm shift. I teach with social heartstring.

Speaker A: Yeah. It seems like that comes with a lot of internal work. What types of internal work do you tell your students to do? Do they journal, do they meditate, or.

Speaker B: Um, I mean, fundamentally, if we were to go really deep into this, a lot of that brokenheartedness and that need to fill the hole, a lot of that comes from childhood wounds, you know, childhood abandonment wounds. Not feeling loved, um, you know, feeling, you know, feeling that state of trauma and then reaching out for the dummies or the, the teddy bear.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or needing something like the blankie to kind of pacify that negative feeling that's coming up in the body.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so the adult version of that is when you're feeling low, reach out for the chocolate, the alcohol.

Speaker A: Right. Material cigarettes. Yeah.

Speaker B: Get laid, uh, a thousand times, whatever it is, on the pickup artist community. But you're, you're only filling a hole. You're not feeling whole. One of the things that I do is I just get the guys I'm working to just drop back into the body again. And I have like a social heart free meditation I do just to get them dropping down into their body.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I like feel whatever they feel and then they might feel a certain pain and just to sit with that pain and just be the, the loving adult to that pain and just not running away from it and just staying with it, nurturing it, feeling it. And that's actually an ongoing thing that I encourage a lot of my guys to do. You could call this inner bonding work, inner child work. I mean, reparenting word. Yeah, reparenting these kinds of words. That's something that's kind of an ongoing thing. But I also do something else with my guys, which is the, the other aspect of the social heartstring meditation is to imagine dropping down from your, the top of your awareness at your head, dropping down into the heart space. And then imagine the heart opening. And you can almost imagine like a child. I get into. Imagine being a child in their garden when they were young, going on to the, one of those slides that go into the paddling pool. You know, they have those little slides and they bring their awareness to here. So imagine climbing up the stairs to the paddling, put the, uh, to the slide, sliding down. And they imagine sliding down into the heart space. And at that moment they imagine dropping into the paddling water and the water splashes outwards and outwards and outwards. And I get them to keep that actually feels like the heart opening, that feeling of opening and that feeling like I've talked, I've mentioned that story before about just coming from that place of creativity and just wanting to share and wanting just to give, you know, that card. That's actually a little feeling they get from that. And so I encourage them to do that quite a lot. And by doing that and the inner child work and just getting out there, removing the language that they will from all the kind of the pickup stuff and just coming from a place of expression and just unfolding, but leading at the same time, using your masculine energy to lead. That for me is the healthiest way. And actually that's kind of the, the blueprint. That's what I give the guys to do.

Speaker A: Yeah, I like that because I think that I also remember like what I shared earlier about like a lot of society misreading the value of men in our society. And I think that type of meditation or inner work for the guys helps them re realize their value as humans. And they're not just like here to, you know, provide a roof above your head or, or pay for your shit or something. Because a lot of women just look at men that way, unfortunately. And there's a lot of pieces of media that remind women of that and it's just ruining like the dating world. So in your program you're specifically teaching and reaching and talking to Gen Z. So may I ask why this is your chosen audience instead of like our generation? And what is something that most people might be surprised, um, about when in terms of, you know, talking about Gen

Speaker B: Z people, what would they be surprised about?

Speaker A: Yeah, like what is something about Gen Z people that non Gen Z people might be surprised to know?

Speaker B: I mean I, I haven't psychoanalyzed them in that depth, but the way that I'm doing is I just, I want to catch them at a early part of their development, the most significant part of their development. I just think there isn't a clear signpost for them. There's not a clear um, even figure in that space to help them navigate them through a lot of their insecurities. Dating, how to meet women and stuff like this. They're literally just finding it all from these bubblegum influences on tick tock, which a lot of it is pretty toxic. Some of it's good, some of it's not. But there isn't an integrated message for these people. You know, there isn't, it's very polarized. You're either getting loads of the kind of the feminists of men are toxic. You know, shaming men. Or you get this hyper masculine, uh, Andrew Tate stuff. There's almost like nothing in the middle that just brings the healthy mask in, the healthy feminine shows it all, breaks it all down, makes it nice and simple. And actually what I teach is encouraging people to not be a copy of anyone else, not be a photocopy of anyone else, but actually be a limited edition of themselves. That's important to me. Yeah, I wouldn't want you to be like me. I wouldn't like anyone else to copy me. I want to find your unique style. If you're a bit of a nerd, that's okay. We'll bring out more of that, you know, but you're owning it. You're owning it. That's your unique style and voice. And then someone else might be a little bit, I don't know, like, kind of more into surfing and a bit of a cowabunga surfer dude look. Don't lose that cat, you know, Keep some of that. We want to work on, you know, so it's not like a, a cookie cutter, one size fits all thing. It's about these Gen Z's. I want to encourage them, a very early point in their development, to bring out the best of themselves, but just having a healthy infrastructure of what to do in the right moment and how to take action, how to, you know, just do all the things that young people should do, make friends, go out, have a good time, you know, just enjoy themselves at the same time, see opportunities and go for them without any of this sort of toxic material that we've got out there at the moment.

Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. Now, now I understand where you're shooting for Gen Z, because they're at that point of their life where they're so moldable, uh, but also at the, at the moment of their life where they are deciding who they are for, like, for the rest of their lives. I think I, if I, if I had opportunity, obviously I'm a woman, but if I. So you only serve men in your program, right?

Speaker B: Just to clarify, look, women can join the program. There's not a problem in that. But we're just. For this program, it is just focused on men.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Because we don't, we don't want to cover too much ground, you know, too many demographics, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: But, but, uh, but, but really, generally speaking, the, the principles that I teach in it, uh, most of that is actually relevant for women as well. But I do just want to just focus on the men for now. But there's, I mean if women were interested, they're more than welcome to join as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, but what I'm trying to say is that if I came into that kind of work or whatever the female equivalent is when I was at that age, that would have been really, really good for me and I probably would have made less bad decisions and instead of coming into self work like in my late 20s. So I'm really appreciative uh, that you guys are, are taking that, that leadership to teach men about social hardestry. We can just talk about the launch maybe. Do you have a website?

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. So I mean I would like to say this about the program. I spent a month with my film producer and we, we shot um, about 50 videos on the street talking to people, me doing all these social experiment exercises. And then the idea is that you watch these videos and then there's homework assignments and then you go out and do it and then you can meet with some of the people in the community and you go out and do these uh, assignments yourself. And some of these are like, you know, the coin exercise, the money excitement, it's like giving out a rose to a police officer or something like this, you know, or like stuff that's actually going to get them out their shell. Because at the moment there's quite, this is another reason why I wanted to do the Gen Z's. There's quite a big thing about people doing pranks on this, right? Oh you know, like you've seen these like people doing things on, you know, dick around. I want a healthy version of that where people can actually really hit the streets and do stuff in their environment. But you know what actually create a positive effect, you know, like playing it forwards. You know, one might be um, helping an old lady or opening the door. Someone patting a door is uplifting the people in your environment.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so it's actually using, leveraging this thing about how the young generation love all that kind of stuff on social experiment stuff. Get them doing that. Not only going to have fun, um, you're going to meet women, you're going to make friends, you can have a great time. You're actually helping the environment as well, helping the community. You're uplifting people. You're, you know, you're, you're creating a good positive ripple effect on the people that you're meeting. And also there's little things, um, I do where uh, one of the exercises to hand out a flyer and it's just like you're beautiful. Hand it on to the next person, you can imagine, they just keep handing this out and then the next person hands it out. Then the next, you know, created a ripple effect there. So that's also what's so great about this. There's also that play it forward aspect. So anyway, that's it. The program's going to be on an academy where people can join, watch the videos. There's a community. I'll be on there as well. And, uh, any questions, answer it. We can help you out. And, uh, that's it, really. Yeah.

Speaker A: Socialheartestry.com Socialheartestry.com we are going to share the link in the show notes and by the publication of this podcast, it would have been out, it would have been launched. And I want you guys to really experience this. Check it out if you have a friend that you feel would really benefit from this, maybe a shy cousin or a younger brother who's trying to make it in his first few years of his corporate life. I genuinely believe this is such a valuable thing to accept. Experience. It's not just a book, it's not just a course and it's not some, um, tiktoker with no, um, medical, um, credibility, giving therapy, like advice. So thank you so much, John. If people want to follow you, what you're doing, you mind sharing where they can find you?

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks. Um, so I would say socialheartestry.com is probably the best way. Or they can go on my Instagram, it's @theJohn Cooper. You can add me on Facebook. I'm forward slash theJohn Cooper on there as well. And, um, yeah, that's probably the best ones to go to, I think, to find me, to connect with me.

Speaker A: Yeah, okay, sounds good. We're also going to share those links in the show notes and I hope that you guys learned a lot from today's interview and podcast episode. If you like this, feel free to drop us a five star review or drop a question in the comments. Of course, you're also super open to message, John. See what he's up to. Maybe if you want to invite him to speak at your stage or your podcast. He has a very open heart and I'm 100% sure that if it helps the community and the men that he's trying to help, he's absolutely down for it. So thank you so much, John, for giving us your time. I had a lot of fun.

Speaker B: Thanks, Carla. Thanks for having me on. It's great fun. Cheers.

Speaker A: All right, thank you so much, guys and see you for the next two Mondays for another episode of NONE of your business. So it's a wrap. To my entrepreneur friends. I hope that you found this episode interesting and enjoyable. I know I did. Big thanks to our sponsor Proximity Outsourcing for making this possible. If you need to outsource anything in your business so you can scale fast and easy, visit proximityoutsourcing.com and check out their solutions. If there's if there's any topic that you want to request, feel free to reach out. I only have two conditions. You tell me why you find it interesting and you promise it's not business talk. Find uh us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and YouTube and leave us a comment or review because you're cool like that. This is your host Karla and thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for your interest in fun stories. Now we can get back to business. See you next week. And remember, everything here is none of your business.