Breaking the Rules: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Perfectionism with Heather Whelpley

Angie: Welcome to No More Mondays, the podcast that helps you navigate career challenges through the wisdom of professionals who have been at the same crossroads. I'm your host, Angie Callen, and I welcome you to join me each week as I chat with leaders, entrepreneurs, and employees who are here to share practical, tactical advice and some inspiration on how they arrived in career satisfaction, from job searching and career changes to going out on your own. We're breaking down barriers and providing actionable takeaways to help you take charge of your Mondays and ditch the Sunday blues.

Welcome to the No More Mondays movement. Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of No More Mondays. I'm your host, Angie Callen. Are you a perfectionist?

If you just nodded your head, cringed, or smirked at the ask, I'm guessing there's a good chance the answer is yes. And that you also know we all want to think that perfectionism is a strength, but it's often a trap that binds us and limits our potential. And here's where today's guest comes in. Heather Welpley is a speaker and author and an advocate for helping women let go of perfect ditch imposter syndrome and create our own rules for life.

Her background in HR and leadership development across the globe has provided some really amazing insight into the plight of the overachiever, and I am very excited for she and I to dig into this and learn from her, because I think even I'm gonna pick up a tip or two. So, Heather, welcome to No More Mondays. Heather: Thank you, Angie. I'm so excited to be here today and have this conversation.

Angie: Yeah, before we started recording, Heather and I realized, like, we have a lot of little common talking points, and you're all about to hear them unfold, and we've never had an episode really dedicated to this thing, imposter syndrome, that has become a very trending topic, and we're going to come back to that in a second, but you know, you hit a lot of the hot buttons that professional women, specifically, I think, feel today, and I know there's a lot of men out there who are also dealing with this, and this is all going to be relevant for you, but whether it's imposter syndrome or perfectionism in college, a friend, and a friend of mine, and I used to say we were prisoners of our own responsibility, you know, like whatever you want to call it.

I let's start with your story, because I think giving a little snapshot and some context into your background is going to just really help bring perspective to this, and I'm guessing that a lot of your perspective on these things is because of your experience. So, tell me, where all of that came from, and where have you come from. Heather: Absolutely, and before I do, I have to say I love that prisoners of my own responsibility. I feel like I know I have a lot of friends who would probably categorize themselves in that same category as I would as well, sometimes.

So, my background, I mean, you gave me a great professional introduction there as a speaker and author that works with women to let go of perfect and create their own rules for life, and that comes because that's my own experience of realizing these rules that are placed on us that create this environment where we have to prove or feel like we have to prove, please, and perfect our way through life, whether that's through work or other aspects of life as well. And that was also my story for a really long time.

So I am the classic overachiever since high school, top of my class in high school, and felt like I had to be there, even though no one was telling me I had to be there, it was this very internally driven, I have to be at the top of my class, I have to do well, and while I didn't necessarily follow a traditional career trajectory immediately out of college, I taught environmental education, I led outdoor trips in Latin America and the US, and so I didn't have a traditional, I wasn't a traditional check the box overachiever, but I will tell you, once I got into my corporate job, that overachiever came roaring back, and I again put so much pressure on myself that I had to be successful the first time I tried something, I had to be productive all the time, I couldn't disappoint anyone, I had no boundaries for 25 or 30 years of my life, I was exhausted all of the time, and then when I became an entrepreneur, it doubled down even more, because then suddenly, as an entrepreneur, it really did feel like it was all on me, and to a certain degree, that was true, but that made me feel like I have to work even harder, which was really not the key, that was not the key to all of this.

What's just doubling down and working harder. And finally, there was a point in my entrepreneurship, which I started almost five years ago. This was about a probably a year, year and a half into being an entrepreneur, where I finally stopped and asked myself, why, why am I doing this? And I asked myself that because I realized that in my business I was actually experiencing less freedom than I had had as a corporate employee, which was not what I wanted.

I am a very freedom-oriented person, and I felt like I was waking up thinking about work, I was going to sleep thinking about work. I felt like I had to match my corporate salary as soon as I got out of corporate, I mean, just all of these. Very unrealistic expectations that I had of myself, and so I finally stopped and asked myself, why, why was I doing all of this, and the answer came to me immediately, was that I was trying to prove myself, like I was trying to prove my worth through achievement and through perfecting everything, and trying to prove to myself and to others that I was worthy of being there, that I was worth something, all of these things, and once I realized that connection, then I was able to take a step back and say, like, where is this coming from, what do I actually want to believe, where do I want to take my life, my business, my career, and it's funny because I didn't, on a conscious level, think or believe that any of us are our worth is tied to achievement, like I believe that we are all worthy, separate from anything that we are doing, but I didn't believe that on a deeper level about myself.

So it took some of that dissecting of these rules that were handed, and when I say creating your own rules for life, it's because I want us to look at those messages, those beliefs, those rules that were handed in any area of our life, but in this one it's like I can't disappoint anyone. I have to be productive all of the time. I'm not allowed to fail. I'm not allowed to make a mistake.

All of these feelings that I call rules, and saying, like, do I really want to follow them anymore? And if not, what is going to work for me? What do I really believe? And so that started me on a whole other journey down that path, and which is what my first book is about, called An Overachiever's Guide to Breaking the Rules: How to Let Go of Perfect and Live Your Truth.

And I saw it in a lot of the people that I was working with, from a coaching perspective, I was coaching a lot of women, and we can get into more of that in a bit, but I was seeing it not just show up in myself, but in everyone else around me as well, in different ways, and so that's how I got to where I am right now. So now I not only I do a little bit of coaching, but I mostly write and speak, and I speak on all of these topics related to breaking down those rules that keep us proving pleasing and perfecting.

So imposter syndrome, perfectionism, where how do we rediscover our authentic voice separate from those rules we've been handed, and how do we create our own rules for success in our careers and our lives as a whole? Angie: I feel like we could either just end the podcast right now or start about 75 other podcast episodes, because there's about 27 points in there. I want to dig into it. If Heather can see my face.

There's an insider piece of knowledge. The rest of you don't get the benefit of seeing, like, just the video that we record for our own connection, and my face during that whole thing was like, oh yeah, there we go, you know. And, like, just, it's, it's 100% true. And I think I've experienced a very, very similar, you and I are also of a very similar age, probably raised by similar aged parents of a certain generation, and I would even say potentially similar, like geographic things, because I grew up in Pennsylvania, and you're from Minnesota, right?

Heather: I am from Minnesota, yeah. So, Angie: so there was also those, those rules kind of came down from above or before us is probably a good way to say it, and I think that we're at a point now of stopping and saying, are these should these still be the rules, actually, and actually taking autonomy to define the rule set that's gonna, that's gonna guide us, because I, the first thing you said is I was the top of my class, and I was like, oh no, here we go, and I experienced that too, because I was also the classic, you know, overachiever, valedictorian.

My, my piece that relates to what you said is I really struggled with what I think was imposter syndrome 25 years ago when I graduated from high school, I didn't know what I wanted to do with my, with my life, and I didn't know what I wanted to go to college for, and it's, it's taken a long time to look back on that and realize how self-conscious I was about that, and how it made me feel like I wasn't worth as much because I was a top performer who didn't have a strong career direction, and now I realize it was because I was way too entrepreneurial, and they don't teach that in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania, or anywhere, really.

But it's so funny how this - we finally have defined this thing that I, that I believe gets in the, in the way, and that we're really good at imposing on ourselves, and that is imposter syndrome. It's a very buzzy term, and I think people throw it around without knowing what it is, or worse, experience it without even knowing it. And I mentioned this to Heather before we started. I had a client, literally yesterday, say this to me.

She's like, I think I realized something, and I think it's the called imposter syndrome. And I was like, holy cow, how have we not gotten there yet? So let's just stop and take a minute and get everybody on the same page. Define imposter syndrome for us.

Heather: Absolutely, and I'm resonating with so many things that you're saying as well, but we will pause, and we'll go into imposter syndrome. So, imposter syndrome, to a certain degree, is self-explanatory. It is feeling like an imposter, or like a fraud, or experiencing that self-doubt, even. Even though you are qualified and successful, and that second part of that is really the crux of imposter syndrome.

So, it's not just generalized self-doubt, it's believing or self-assessing your skills, your qualifications, and your experiences as lower or worse than they actually are. And for some people, they feel this way every single day. I've had people of all genders, you tell me that every single day on their way to work, they feel like today's gonna be the day they realize that their boss realizes the company realizes that they have no idea what they're doing, and they're gonna tap them on the shoulder and escort them out the door, and so that some people feel this very pervasively every single day, for a lot of other people it's more situational, so it'll show up like if you think of a corporate type of job, it'll show up when you have to present to senior leaders, or when you are interviewing for a new job, or thinking about any type, type of career development, and you start to wonder, oh, do I really know enough to do that, am I qualified enough, do who am I to think I can be a leader, who am I to think I can go and be an entrepreneur.

All of these thoughts are on, I'm not really enough of an expert. I just got lucky, they chose the wrong person. I'm here, but I haven't really earned this. All of those are really common thoughts associated with imposter syndrome, and I think it's really important to point out, too, it is called a syndrome, but it's not actually a syndrome, Angie: clinic, clinically speaking, it's Heather: clinically speaking, it's not, Angie: it's maybe it's a condition or an experience is probably a better way to put it.

Heather: Yes, as opposed to something that you have, and I think that is important, because it's, it's easier to think of it as something that comes and goes when it's something that you experience, as opposed to a diagnosis that you're going to have for the rest of your life, and there's also nothing wrong with it, Angie: and it could be very acute. I mean, it could come on hard. Absolutely, just like a syndrome or a condition can all of a sudden manifest very, very quickly.

However, it's extremely treatable, although, and this is what I mentioned to my client yesterday, I have found that it's a very hard thing to work through on your own, and whether that is somebody in your family who can, or your family, or your friend group, or your peer group, who can kind of talk you through it, or you work with a coach, or something like that. I find it's a hard thing to catch, because you can't get out of your own head about it, and that's really what it is.

It's you're in your own head thinking you are worth less than you are actually worth to the other people who determine that, so you're valuing yourself less than, like, the professional world actually values exactly. It's hard to just kind of process that alone. Heather: It is, and I think, especially if you don't even know what it is. And so, when I speak on imposter syndrome, there's a huge realization of just like, oh, this is a thing, and it's normal.

At least 70% of people experience imposter syndrome, but we don't think that, because we aren't talking about it, we aren't saying out loud, "Gee, I feel like a total fraud today. Who has no idea what they're doing? Like, people are not having those conversations generally, and if they are, they're, they're, they don't, they're not doing anything with it. And so, even just knowing to name it for yourself, and then I agree, I've had so many people tell me that their partner or coach or a mentor has really been the one who has helped them to recognize their own gifts, and, and that is not a one-time thing, that is something that we need on a regular basis, so whether it's, yes, a group of women friends, a partner, anyone in your life that really reminds you of your greatness and your strengths, and that you do have what it takes to do what you want.

I agree. I've heard that from so many people, that that has been a clincher for them of being reminded by someone who's outside of themselves that they are fantastic, Angie: and there are statistics on this kind of stuff. Women is, and we're, you know, we focus a little on women, but again, this is completely applicable to, you know, all genders. But there are statistics specifically around women in the professional world.

We are really good at undervaluing ourselves and judging our qualifications. We're less likely to apply for a job because we think we're not as qualified as we need to be, versus men, we are 50% less likely to negotiate a higher salary than men, and in, in an in a time when you know something as straightforward as the, you know, the pay gap exists, and as, as, as, as we're aware of it as we are, this is the kind of stuff we have to kind of advocate and help ourselves in getting better at Heather: it's very true, and there's also cultural reasons for, or like structural discrimination reasons for basis all of this as well.

So it's really interesting with imposter syndrome specifically. There's some conflicting research out there, some of which says that underrepresented groups, so women, people of color, are more likely to experience imposter syndrome. Other research says that the experience, like anyone, can experience it across the board, and we definitely know that white, straight, cisgender men, plenty of them, also experience imposter syndrome, but that the experience of it isn't necessarily the same, because at least in our American culture, that it is designed subconsciously, or however we want to say that.

To buoy back up the confidence of white cisgender straight men faster than other groups, because of, you know, pats on the back and mentors, and just the way that our system is structured, men are questioned less than women are, and so we know that all of these pieces can contribute to both creating and exacerbating imposter syndrome, being interrupted all the time, having your intellect questioned, having your opinions questioned, and, and those are things. So, I just want to be really careful, because yes, we can do things for ourselves, and we should be aware of this, and we should be doing things for ourselves, and I never want anyone to listen to a conversation and think it's their fault that they're experiencing them in the first place.

Angie: There's a reason, there's a reason this, these experiences, if we want to move away from the syndrome word, there's a reason that the experience of the imposter is so prevalent in our working world, and it's because the conditions have have allowed it to develop, and I think it's a really interesting thing to think about that, while anyone can experience it, I think maybe, maybe the underrepresented side of it experiences it differently and has outcomes or different impacts because of it, due to that structure.

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com/emerging again, that's Athletic greens.com/emerging to take ownership of your health and pick the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. Heather: And now back to the show. Angie: So, okay, let's talk about the perfectionist thing, because this is this is a little different than imposter syndrome, and I think it's, I think it's love like equal import, because it comes on for different reasons, and it's, it really a lot of times is that self-imposed have to have to do be all the things.

Where do you see it as a hindrance in the professional world? Heather: Oh my gosh, so many questions, a lot of different directions in that. I mean, so I feel like there's two different categories immediately come to mind. There's probably more than that, but two different categories.

One is on your own well-being, and so when we are, when we're putting all that pressure on ourselves, and I kind of think of it as like the inner critic, you know, when we're in that perfectionist mode, or when we, we are perfectionists and put that pressure on ourselves, you feel like you should always be doing more, like it's never enough. And then, even when you, and sometimes you raise the bar on yourself, and sometimes you raise the bar so high that you're not even able to meet the expectations of yourself, so you might meet others' expectations, but you're not meeting the expectations that you put out there for yourself, or you raise it just high enough that you, you can reach it, but only through overwork and burning the candle at both ends and burning out, but either way, interestingly, the inner critic will still sweep in.

So, if you reach the bar and you have that quote unquote success, that inner critic will swoop in again and say, well, next time I have to work even harder, I have to raise the bar even higher and higher, more, yeah, and then if you don't meet it because your expectations are so unrealistic, almost the same thing happens, except for it's probably meaner, because it's like, oh, I should have worked harder, I should have done more, even though it's not even possible at some point to do that, so there's a lot of internal stress, anxiety, and burnout related to perfectionism, and, and I definitely felt that for a long time.

It's funny, until probably five years ago, I would not have described myself as a perfectionist, because I'm not a detail-oriented perfectionist. Like, I believe we all make human error. I don't really care if there's a typo out there. I mean, of course, I'll catch it, but I have never, and in fact, I've almost been annoyed with other people who have been at that level, and I think it's just because I'm not an overly detailed person, that's not how my perfectionism showed up.

But when I really started to dig into what perfectionism was, really, it is just unrealistic expectations, like Angie: being an over striver, totally, because I totally, you and I are like cut from the same class. I'm the same, I'm the same way I am in many regards completely buy into that 80% is done mentality, because it's not worth your time to spend on what results you'll get out of the 20% but when it comes to putting in effort and energy, I completely go overboard, overboard, and I'm an over striver in that regard, and that is a perfectionist tendency that does lead to all those, those negative things, and I think it was interesting to go all the way back to something you said in the very beginning that I want to grab onto was how this actually does manifest, regardless of whether you're in an employment situation or in an entrepreneurial situation, and in an employment situation, you oftentimes can be setting expectations for yourself that are higher than your employer has for you.

However, what that does is now set a new bar and a new expectation for an employer, and that becomes a vicious cycle that now you've set an expectation you can't necessarily meet. But then, on the flip side of that, if you go into the entrepreneurial environment where you almost have no boundaries, and you have to kind of define that structure for yourself. You have no safety net or like check and balance to keep yourself from just completely going overboard. Heather: Absolutely, and that was me, and you're completely right.

So, if we think of those two buckets I was talking about before is kind of like the consequences of perfectionism. I'm Angie: pointing at myself, one, you Heather: know, so one is on like your own well-being, but then the other one really is on your, your work, like perfectionism is inefficient, we overserve, we overdo, and interestingly, there is an overlap there between imposter syndrome as well, because if you feel like you're not as good as you actually are, you're going to work really hard to try and make up for this gap that doesn't actually exist in the first place, and so there's a - they're kind of a Venn diagram, they're not the same thing, but there's a bit of a Venn diagram between the two, and so if you think of, yeah, in the corporate world, like you have, you get assigned a task or a project, and you feel like it has to be 110% instead of you have to give 110% instead of whatever might actually be required, but then when you are in an entrepreneur role, at least this is how it showed up for me.

I worried that, like, when I, so when I started, I was doing more career coaching, like you, and I worried that my clients would feel like their investment wasn't worth it, that they would sign on, and it wouldn't be worth the money that they were investing, or the time they were investing, and so I over did, I over served them, and part of it was imposter syndrome, and part of it was perfectionism, so it was very much a both and in that arena, and that is not, it's not good for me, for my own burnout, it's not good, because I can't serve as many people as, and have the impact that I want to create if I'm over serving in the areas that don't actually require that level of service, and yeah, and it was a lot about, again, about proving myself, proving that I was worthy, but also proving to my clients that this was a good decision that they made to hire me.

Angie: I feel like you all are listening into into a live recorded session of all the things Angie shouldn't be doing as an entrepreneur and a career coach. My husband's sitting there listening to this episode going, hmm, was Heather prompted to discuss all of these things with my wife, who overworks herself and over serves her clients? It's very, it's very true, especially in the entrepreneurial space of kind of like coaching, advising, and consulting, where it is very much based on, you know, giving your like intellect and knowledge to people, and you can just, just, you know, continue striving for, for new, for new levels.

So, let's, let's shift gears slightly, and, including myself, what advice do you have for us? So, whether it's somebody out there who is getting, you know, holding themselves back because they're lacking the confidence and the self-worth to progress in their career, or somebody who maybe is, you know, pushing, pushing the boundaries and the envelope too hard in their own business, you know, what steps do people like us take? Heather: You know, I think there's kind of both the short term in the moment steps, and then there's the longer term steps, and so in the moment, some of the best things that you can do is first of all just recognize and name what you are experiencing, so when you now that you know a little bit more about what imposter syndrome is, or you dive into it a little bit more because you're starting to recognize yourself in it, start to notice when you experience it, and simply name it with curiosity, of like, oh, I am experiencing imposter syndrome right now, that's what's happening, and that act alone will help to decrease the power of it, of just recognizing it, and the same thing with perfectionism, of like, wow, I am being again with total curiosity and compassion, like I'm being really hard on myself right now.

What's going on here? And right in tandem with that, I already used the word compassion, but self-compassion is so important when it comes to perfectionism and imposter syndrome, and really anything related to where you have an inner critic, and so self-compassion is recognizing you're not alone, like literally telling you. Self, this is normal. Other people experience this.

I'm not alone in this experience or these feelings. And then talking to yourself like you would a good friend, so saying the same words to yourself, whether it's in your head or out loud. And so, when we think of imposter syndrome, if you, if you're sitting there thinking about applying for a new job, but all the thoughts are coming to your mind, like I don't know if I really know enough to do that. I'm not sure if I'm qualified.

What if I get into that job and I'm totally in over my head, and I have no idea what I'm doing? I just have to fake it. All of these thoughts that are kind of those imposter thoughts. It think about if a good friend of yours that you knew was totally qualified for that job came and told you those things, what would you say to that friend, and say those same things to yourself, and that is a practice, but it's one that is, it's so good when it comes to both imposter syndrome and perfectionism, because self-compassion is essentially the antidote to self-judgment, which is a lot of this comes in with that, so that's what I would say, like in the moment, and then also having a practice or two for yourself that you know helps you get out of your head back into your body that helps to quiet some of those inner critic thoughts.

So, for me, hiking is the number one thing you already brought up, having people in your life that can remind you of how great you are and can recenter you into yourself, and that practice and people are going to be different for every single person out there, but I think it's helpful to have a couple of those things in your back pocket that you can do just to reground in yourself and quiet that inner critic. On the deeper level, though, I would say it's really looking at what are these rules and the beliefs that are handed to you, and when I say handed, it might be specifically by individuals in your life, but it can also just be the general cultural messages that we get.

I mean, for entrepreneurs like rise and grind, and you know things like that. It's terrible, it's ridiculous. And the number of ads I got on my Facebook page when I became an entrepreneur about, like, build your six figure business, build your seven figure business, and you see these messages all of the time. Angie: I'm laughing because I get that as LinkedIn lead gen spam, right?

So you get 17 messages, 17 messages a day, like, 'Hey, would you like 26 qualified leads to your inbox so that you can make 50k this week? And I'm like, 'No, no, I don't. I'm Heather: good. Yeah, yeah.

So we get these messages, and so when you can take that step back, like, so when I did, when I realized, like, what am I doing, and I took that step back with curiosity and compassion, was like, why am I doing this, I'm doing this to prove myself, but then the next step of that is to choose some different thoughts and beliefs, and for me, the one that really truly changed my life was selecting the belief I am worthy for who I am, not what I do, and then when you start to act on that new belief, it was like, oh, if I start to believe that over time and act on it, then I don't have to overwork all the time.

I can take a Wednesday afternoon off and not feel totally guilty if I'm out on the hiking trail, like I should be sitting at my desk at my computer, and like I can do less, and I can ask for more money, and I can do all of these things because I can still work hard, I can still create an impact, but my personal worth isn't dependent on it, and that's going to be different for everyone, but that deeper, that deeper investigation for yourself of what are the messages that you've been handed and what do you really want to keep following, like I was just doing just last week, I was doing a session with a group of people of all genders called Creating Your Own Rules for Success, and I was going through a lot of these rules that were handed, and someone wrote in the chat, like, I didn't realize that these were optional, like, this is mind-blowing, because I didn't realize that I had the choice to say I don't want to follow that rule, and you do, you do have the choice, Angie: that is like the best aha moment somebody like you could ever get.

Oh my gosh, like somebody who could ever give to somebody that's amazing. And, and I actually think that also be like they're not always rules that are we're handed the rules we've imposed on ourselves. For instance, in specifically in the coaching space, that kind of idea around, well, my clients are going to be mad at me if I can't deliver. I'm totally guilty on that one, or that, like, we're not allowed to be people who have needs as well, and it, or that that'll dilute the value that we give to our clients.

That is a completely self-imposed, like, limitation, be in, and I think that a step you could take there, if you're, if that's resonating with you, is stop and think about the last time a client got mad at you because you said, hey, I need an extra day to deliver this document, or hey, I had this personal thing happen, I'm really sad and I need a couple days, can I reschedule? When did anybody get mad at you for that? But yeah, never, anytime it does happen, you, you immediately go into defensive mode, thinking everybody's gonna get mad at you for it, but that's just all in your own head, you tell yourself those things.

Heather: Yes, and I also want to challenge you a bit on that, because I don't think we create them ourselves, we can exacerbate them, but they're not, we're. Are they are not originated from inside of us. I strongly believe that. So, a lot of these come from sometimes just general cultural messages about productivity and achievement and connecting that to our worth, but some of this is also gender roles, and so women have been way more taught to be caregivers, to over deliver, that they're not allowed to say no, they're not allowed to disappoint anyone, and I remember talking to a male coach once, and he was like, yeah, like, I serve my clients, I do what I need to do, but, like, I don't think about them in between my sessions, and I was like, oh, I do, I think about my clients, you Angie: don't wake up at, you don't wake up at 3am and go, oh man, I haven't talked to that person in a month, I better email them, Heather: exactly, and they're not, and this isn't everyone, obviously.

I'm making some very trending, stereotypical things here, but absolutely. But they're based in some truth about those roles that women have been taught, that this is the role of woman is supposed to play. And even though we are expanding that role all the time, a lot of that has still stuck in with us, so that we have to take care of everyone and be responsible for everything all of the time, and, and that's part of that role that we've been handed as a woman, so it feels like it is coming from inside of you, but it does not typically originate from inside of you.

Angie: So, we've, okay, I like this amendment. So, we've chosen to impose a rule on ourselves that we get from society, but we also have the choice to remove that rule from our, from our list of engagements. Heather: Yes, and sometimes there are consequences. I mean, I do want to be clear, like there are consequences, and so, for example, this isn't specifically related to perfectionism, but you know, I got the free feedback pretty frequently in my corporate career that I could be too direct, and that also I believe relates to relates to part of the role of like how a woman is supposed to communicate, and so there were consequences at times to my being direct, and there's also benefits to it, and so sometimes you're laughing right now, so I'm curious to hear more from your perspective on this.

Oh my gosh, now I wish we had Angie: just like we put out the video on this, because literally, if I could give, if I could have said, Heather, here's a list of things that we should talk about, because we have them in common. I, so I used to be an engineer, as the listeners out there know, and I was, I'm already a direct person by nature, but when you're a woman who then goes into a male-dominated environment like engineering, it's only going to exacerbate and perpetuate your direct nature.

I interviewed for a job at an engineering firm, and the feedback I got was, well, you might be too direct for us. Side note, I was offered the job anyway, and I did not take it, because if they were worried I was too direct for them, I did not think it was a culture fit. But that is, it's so funny how a man in society, oh, this, this is a rabbit hole, we got to be careful not to go on a diatribe around. However, to bring this full circle, like a man in society who communicates the way we do is very respected, while a woman who is extremely direct gets a whole lot of five letter words attached to her.

Heather: Yes, exactly, exactly. So there is a risk, but I think there's also a risk in staying quiet. There's a risk in following those rules on the impact that you want to create on your own well-being, of just how it feels. I mean, I can tell you, I experience now, and this is not perfect.

I still follow some of these rules. I'm still discovering new rules that I've been handed all of the time, and what's also true is that I now experience a level of freedom that I did not know was possible five years ago, both in mostly internally, but also in how I choose to spend my time, where I'm putting my time and energy, the ability that I have to take a risk because I'm not as concerned that it's going to fail, you know, all all of these things, it's, it's really amazing, it's Angie: empowering.

I think, too, empowering. Heather: That's a good word. Yeah, this Angie: could be as simple as something like I'm going to give my permit myself permission to not see clients on Fridays, and I realize that that may mean a client isn't going to work with me, because that's the only day they're available. So, it's..

it doesn't have to be something as like impactful or personality-driven as like direct communications. It could just be some sort of like logistics element that you decide to give yourself permission around, but I really love this kind of idea of really sit down and think about the rule set that you're applying to your life, and to and be intentional around whether or not something belongs on that list or not, and how it is holding you back, or how it is impacting your life, potentially in a negative way, and whether you need it, and if you're willing to accept what sometimes small, you know, fallout will come with choosing to chuck it.

All of that is like, and I also really agree with the fact that this is not a perfect science, and it's not necessarily like a line in the sand or a switch that flips and all of a sudden you're just like 100% free because you know you've all heard me identify with some of this stuff and but I also identify with a lot of the work to say whether I knew I was chucking rules off my list or not knowing that I'm just I'm going to design the life I want and make my career fit into it instead of.

Of really hard driving around that societal norm of like we're defined by our our profession and we're defined by these rules that come down because of that, Heather: absolutely, and I will just tell you, my book dives into all of this, so if you want to dive in more, the second chapter is literally called Whose rules are you following, and so it'll guide you through this process of discovery. Love it. Angie: And perfect segue without even knowing it, Heather, I wanted to ask you about your book, because you have mentioned the title of the first, and I want you to throw it out to everybody again.

We'll also link it in the show notes at nomoremondays dot info, but it's I've heard that you've got a number two in the works, so tell me more about that. Heather: Ooh, I'm not sure how much I want to share, so I will. I'll tell you the first. This is what I can share.

The first book is really about my realization of the rules I was following, related to overachieving and perfectionism, and breaking away from that and reconnecting to myself separate from those rules. So the book is part memoir, part self-help, but it's really about that segment of my life. The second book is about taking it way broader and looking at all of the rules that we have been handed that cause us to prove, please perfect, and even sometimes rebel against them, which is still a kind of performance.

So, essentially, how do we perform in our lives instead of just living them and letting go of that and realizing noticing how those things cause us not just to overwork but can even cause shame on a deeper level and really looking at that and releasing that so that we can be free and we can be free inside of ourselves and in our lives as a whole so it's the big broad like we're going to be, we'll be looking at not just work, but I'm going to be talking about body image, I'm going to be talking about relationships, all different ways, gender, all different ways that this shows up, and it's going to, it is a deep, it is a deep Angie: dive.

You said exactly the words I was thinking, it really, this, we've talked a lot about this in the context of your professional lives, but this kind of stuff does show up kind of across all areas of our well-being, and I love that kind of the first book was kind of a focus around kind of almost like here's the starting point, like start and not fix this, but address it and be aware of it in this specific area of your life, and now you're kind of going to go bigger, and everybody has those tools to apply to that, like, larger framework.

Oh, I'm excited. When do you know when it'll come out, or is it really in the early stages? Heather: Oh, I'm about halfway through. Well, probably two thirds of the way through the second draft.

So I'm thinking next summer, or early next summer, maybe late spring. It's always, you know, if you're working on a project like this, it's always a balance between working on that project and doing the other parts of work and still having a life and resting and all of the things, because I, I don't want to be someone who out, sit out there and pedals like we should be doing less and letting go of our perfectionism, and then driving myself to do it all in a crazy fast way, so I try and walk my own talk Angie: in the keyboard 12 hours a day, yeah, on a nice Colorado day, because, side note, Heather's also a fellow Colorado, and I think that's also a good, a good message is of not only just like taking this advice and executing these kind of ideas for the sake of executing the ideas, but really believing them enough to be an example for it as well, Heather: yes, I mean, and all of these come out of my own experiences, and I wouldn't have had the second realization that has led to the second book had I not done everything related to the first book.

I mean, I needed, I needed that, and I need to continue to practice that, and to remind myself that I am worthy for who I am, not what I do, in order to continue to grow and experience that freedom. It's a, it's a reminder on a really frequent basis, and it is a guiding principle in my life now, but it's, it's not a one and done. It is a daily practice, and I have no idea what the next level will be of my own growth and development, and the next realization, but I have no doubt there will be many more in my life as well.

Angie: And that's kind of exciting. See, guys, even the even the experts and the thought leaders are still working through the same stuff. It's just we're a half step ahead of you, so we've got the insight to be able to give you resources to to learn from from the things that we had to learn from, maybe in a little harder way. So, speaking of experiences and advice, we're gonna play a little game, and don't worry, it's, it's not hard, it's called rapid fire recommendations, it's not usually rapid either, but here we go.

What's your most memorable travel destination? Heather: Oh, I went to Columbia in probably 2008 2009 which was just after the time it had become pretty safe to travel there, but right before there were that many tourists there, and it was unbelievable. I got to participate in Carnival. We were there during Carnival, which is the second largest Carnival in the world, after Rio.

The beaches were empty and amazing, and the food was fantastic, and the people were great, and it was just.. and I went with two friends, and we just had an absolutely fantastic time. It was just.. yeah.

Everything about it's my favorite trip I've ever been on. It's absolutely amazing. Angie: That's an awesome memory, and I find that a lot of times that the most memorable travel destination is not the destination itself, but the experience it lended. So, Heather: yes, Angie: excellent answer.

Now we've already gotten, obviously I'm going to ask you for a great book recommendation. We know one, which we will link to, but give us another Heather: gosh, so many different books. I mean, I love, I love Brene Brown. Actually, I probably like her podcast better than her books, and she just started doing them again.

This might be a unique one, but because I work so much with gender, I just read the book. It's a fiction book called D transition baby by Tori Peters, and it is. It challenged my notions around gender on a really deep level in a really wonderful way, because it has both the characters are both cisgender and transgender. One of the characters had had presented to the world first as a male, then as a female, and then went back to presenting as a male, and so it just really, it really challenged me, and has made me think about both my own gender and the work that I do, and fiction stories do that in a different way than fact do, because the emotions of it really stick with you, because it's a story, and I realized that the story of it is fiction and does not apply to every person out there.

It's not based in research or anything like that, but there's a different level of connection that that really paused me to stop and think. So, it's a book that I would highly recommend to people. Angie: We don't get a lot of fiction recommendations on that list, so I'm kind of glad you went there. What about a movie?

Favorite movie? Heather: Oh, my favorite movie is Field of dreams, it's like from probably 1990 I mean, I was a kid when I saw it, and I love it. I don't even really like baseball, but I love that movie, because I think even at a young age I knew that we needed to listen to our own knowing above, above what other people were telling us, and in that movie is really about that, that movie is about that, it's about listening to the crazy voice in your head that you know is right, that that guiding force for you, regardless of what other people are telling you, and yes, we can always take feedback, we can take ideas from other people, of course, but then we need to turn inward and listen to and listen to ourselves, and that's really to me what that movie is about, set and just a wonderful story as well, Angie: and produced at a time when that idea of emotional intelligence and intuition and listening to your kind of inner guidance was not the norm, you know, when what I was like 10 when that movie came out, so yes, I 100% agree with that, and also will just reaffirm that we don't listen to our gut enough.

We're really good at listening to our brains and discounting how much, even scientifically, our gut can tell us in the decision-making process. Yeah, Heather: that's a chapter in my next book, is called Following Your Own Knowing, and I have another one on body, another one on feeling your feelings. So, this is.. I agree, that could be a, that's that to me has been the next level of all of this, is taking some of it out of the intellectual and bringing it into the body and intuition as well.

Angie: You're, I hope you have like a million people on your wait list, but that would mean a million people listen to this podcast. Let's just be real, everybody. Speaking with Share No More Mondays with a friend, speaking of podcasts, you mentioned Brene Brown, but what podcast do you face faithfully listen to? What's a great one?

Heather: Yeah, so definitely both of Brene Brown podcasts. I like Glenn and Doyle's podcast, especially the interviews. They have fantastic interviews with people. No, Angie: she had a podcast.

Heather: Oh yeah, it's called We Can Do Hard Things, and so I particularly like the interviews because they just get really great guests, and they also often talk about turning inward and listening to yourself over the rules that society has given to you. So, those are two podcasts that I listen to pretty frequently. I, yeah, I love podcasts, so there's a whole bunch. Some I listen to that are more on the spiritual front, some on the news front.

It's how I get a lot of, a lot of my information is through podcast, Angie: love it, and of course, this is a show about Mondays. So, what is the first word that comes to mind when I say Monday? Heather: You know, I thought about this ahead of time, and the word is engaging, and also I know that if it doesn't feel that way, I need to check in with myself, like if I am dreading a Monday, or if I am tired, or I don't feel engaged on a Monday, I need to take a step back and say, like, do I need to sleep more, or do I need to take a break, or am I not somehow not enjoying what I'm working on right now?

Like, what, what is going on? Because the norm for me should be engaging, Angie: that is maybe one of the best answers we've ever had, and it's not because of the word, it's because of the why behind the word, and I think that that's a really good thing to think about, is how awareness around how you look at Mondays, and if you aren't engaged, you need to pay attention. Heather: Yes. Angie: Yep.

Well, sadly, as we wrap things up, which I really want to stay here for like four hours, because there's about 20. Five things I want to chat about, but how does everybody else out there follow along with you, and really hear all of this? Just, you have a lot of perspectives and just wisdom and tools to give people. So, how do people follow along with what you're up to?

Find your books, book you for a speaking gig? Where do we stay in tune with Heather? Heather: Couple different places. I mean, the best place to find all the information is my website, which is Heather wellpley.

com So, look at how to spell my name, but even if you Google something remotely related to my name, you will probably find me. And on my website, you'll find book info, so you can get, if you're in the US, you can get signed hardcover copies of my book on my website. Otherwise, you can get the ebook, audiobook, and paperback on Amazon, both in the US and globally. You'll also find speaking info on my website, and if you want to join my email list and get all the up-to-date things, if you scroll to the bottom of any of my web pages, you'll see a sign up there.

And you can also get a guide to saying no and setting boundaries, which, if you're resonating with this conversation, you will probably benefit highly from that. People have given really great feedback that it's a super helpful tool. I feel like now we need to Angie: start this podcast all over again. Oh, there's a topic, Heather: a whole different conversation on saying no.

And then LinkedIn is my best social media platform. I'm on LinkedIn a lot. You can also find me on Instagram, but LinkedIn is where I put most of my resources, posts, and most active out there, so you can message me there, and I will, I will respond there as well. Angie: And Heather and I are now connected there, so you can find her through my network as well.

And I have a feeling she and I will fill up your news feeds with wonderful, really practical advice for how to ditch imposter syndrome and be less perfect in a great way. Heather: Yes, I love that. Angie: As we close things out, we're going to get one more good piece of advice from you. So, what is your number one recommendation for what listeners out there can do to get one step closer to career and life satisfaction?

Heather: I think it's - I actually hinted at it just a few minutes ago, which would be to talk to other people, take in that feedback, get ideas from podcasts and individual conversations and books, and then turn inward and listen to what your heart is telling you, what your spirit is telling you, what your intuition, whatever you want to call that thing, your inner voice is telling you, and make decisions based on that, so you can take in the input from others, from other resources and sources, but really make the decision based on what you know is right for you, because no one else knows, no one else can make that decision of what is the next right step for you in your career.

What's the next decision, the best decision that you can make about any aspect of your life? So listen to others, but then really decide based on what the voice that's coming from inside of you, Angie: if you're gonna, going to take time to consume advice, whether it's books, podcasts, mentorship, time with others, be sure to also take the time to digest and figure out how to apply it to you. Heather: Yes, I love that. I mean, I even say in my book, in the very introduction of my book, I'm like, do the exercises, because just reading this is only surface level, but if you do the exercises, then you can apply it to yourself, and you can figure out what do I want to do with this, and what if this applies to me.

And so I completely agree, and we miss that a lot. I think in the self-help personal development world, it's like, no, just keep consuming, keep consuming, keep consuming, and I love to do that too. I get inspired by other people, but I need to stop and say, yeah, what of this do I really want to apply to my life? What do I want to listen to?

And I need space and silence and writing and journaling and hiking without any earbuds in my ears in order to do that. You know, I need that space in order to digest and determine what do I really want to take on and what do I want to listen to. Angie: Heather has so much great stuff to give all of you, so I hope that you will tune in to her, grab the book, stay in touch, and follow along with her, so that in 23 when the new book comes out, we will celebrate that big time, and I'm very, very excited to pick up both, and this has been an amazing conversation that I wish could go on forever.

There is so much, I think, like wisdom, and just like transparency, and honesty, and relatability with your story, and I appreciate you sharing it. So, thank you so much for being part of the No More Mondays movement. We always love hearing these kinds of stories, and people that have successfully navigated career and really life crossroads to create a path of success and fulfillment defined by our own rule set. So, thank you, Heather.

Heather: Perfect. Thank you. I've enjoyed this conversation and appreciate your openness and vulnerability as well. Thank you, Angie: thank you so much.

And as we wrap up this love fest, everybody out there who's listening, I would appreciate it if you would subscribe to No More Mondays and leave us a five star rating, because Heather and I just killed it, and it's a huge help as she and I both work to inspire confident professionals, help people overcome imposter syndrome. Professionalism, all the things holding us back from a life of satisfaction and fulfillment and abundance. If you want to leave us comments, feedback, guest suggestions, or grab all the links and resources that Heather and I chatted about today, head over to No More Mondays dot info and join us again next Wednesday when a new episode of No More Mondays hits your podcast feed.

Thanks for joining us for another episode of No More Mondays. Tune in next week as we bring you more insights and actions to help you improve your professional life and find career satisfaction. Don't forget, visit us online at No More Mondays dot info for all the details, show notes, and recommendations from this episode. No More Mondays, we drop new episodes every Wednesday.

No More Mondays is brought to you by Career Benders Inc, in partnership with Executive Producer Jane Durkee. For more information about career coaching, resume writing, personal branding, recruiting, and entrepreneurship coaching services, visit our website at Career benders.