'Busy Isn't Bold': The Banking Branding Problem

Mary Wisniewski: Well, hello, it's me, Mary Wisniewski, editor at large for Cornerstone Advisors and host of Money Isn't Everything, A, uh, show that explores anything other than just holding money, because, well, that's a commodity thing. Today on the show is Allison Netzer, who just published her second edition of Think Like a Brand, Not a Bank. And it's a super lively read with lovely illustrations. That's an ad. And we get into ideas and strategies of what makes for compelling messaging for an industry where it feels really hard to stand out. And Allison gets vulnerable by sharing how her thinking changed from edition one to edition two based on her lived experience. Here's our convo. Alison, welcome to Money Isn't Everything. It's great to see you again.

Allison Netzer: It is always good to see you. And I agree. Money is not Everything. So glad to be here.

Mary Wisniewski: I'm glad we're in alignment because it could be awkward, but, uh, we can be really arguing. Well, we meet again because we've done a panel together. Our worlds collide here and there and it's always a joy to be able to connect with you, but especially now because not only have you gotten your wisdom tooth pulled recently, but you have your reissued book out, which. Thank you for sending it to me. Think Like a brand, not a bank. And um, I wanted to start there because, you know, I. Why, why revisit this book?

Allison Netzer: Now? Yeah, relatively now. Mhm. Yeah, relatively now. Relatively three years. Relatively three years later. I like to use the word ish. Ish. Three ish years. Yeah, we haven't aged at all. So I know it's hard. You know, it's interesting. When I wrote the first edition, you know, I was the CMO at a fintech and my friend and I, Liz Ty, wrote the first one and it was really about in a perfect world, like what our ideal would be right when we're going out and working with, you know, we worked with 22, 23 digital, uh, digital bank brands. And so it was really, it was hope for the future. And since that time I've actually, you know, started my own company. So I spent the last three years actually practicing what, what we wrote the first time. And like you and I have kind of chatted. Like some of it held up brilliantly, some of it did not when you're trying to make a living, uh, doing these things. And so I was like, you know, I really want to bring what, I want to bring that transparency to readers. But also I've had the chance to work with so many other great people and organizations since then, I wanted to bring their stories into it, how they're doing this work in the world, bring some fresh data. Um, and it also just keeps me sharp. So, yeah, that was the labor of love. And man, I started before AI. I could have done it in like a weekend instead of writing it, but actually, uh, did it the old fashioned way.

Mary Wisniewski: Well, now you can claim that I'm like, there's, you know, before and after chatgpt. And I'm glad we both can say, yeah, we could write before. So take that.

Allison Netzer: We could, yeah. Version 3 may come out. Yeah, version 3 may come out next week. But version 2 was actually written by

Mary Wisniewski: a person, a labor of love. And I know one of the enhancements were illustrations which make your points so fun.

Allison Netzer: Yeah, it's so fun. I have to, I mean, I have to give full credit to Kelsey Weaver, who's the illustrator. And you know, there's some great illustrations, but it's one of these things. Mary, kind of like how you and I have gotten to know each other. Kelsey and I were at dinner in New York with some, some other bankers. I, uh, don't know. We just got talked about things and she's like, oh, yeah, doodle. I was like, no idea. I'd known her for years. And she's like, yeah, I'll totally do some illustrations for the book. And I was like, that would be amazing because pictures speak a thousand words. And a couple of weeks later she sends me this pack of amazing illustrations she did on a plane trip to South Africa. And I think it. Wow. Yeah, it adds to it. Like I wouldn't, have, wouldn't have thought so. Um, yeah, it was really cool.

Mary Wisniewski: Oh, that's a wonderful outcome of a dinner too. And Allison, I want, I want to get into like your like, lived experiences always reveal more like, oh, yeah, this is good, this isn't good. But like, what's one or two examples where you're like, oh yeah, this needed to rewrite for sure. Or, or just the thesis maybe was a bit different than what you first thought.

Allison Netzer: Yeah. And I'm all good, like be admitting to it. I think if I could go back in time, I think what we glossed over in the first edition was how far away most marketers and also leaders are from the strategy table that having a brilliant idea, whether it's about brand or go to market, it's not enough. Right. You actually have to have the credibility internally to be constantly marketing the marketing to sell this sort of brand work because you've got a lot of, uh, headwinds, tailwinds. I can never remember which one you

Mary Wisniewski: got a lot of annoying. I'm like, what are those?

Allison Netzer: Whatever the things that make it harder. Wind blowing against you? Because, you know, a lot of this is our responsibility as marketers, but it's seen as more of a. An arts and crafts profession in many cases. And so we just make it harder on ourselves a lot to get some of these principles through. So I think that was underserved, I think, in the first one. And then I think the second, I think improvement or thing that is better now than before is just more stories. It's just the benefit of time. There's so many great organizations that are out there practicing this either on purpose, because we've worked together, they read the first book, or they've just sort of picked up on it and made it their own and made it awesome. Um, there's a couple of good examples in there of companies and banks that have done that. So I think that's just. Yeah, more stories. Less about how, uh, I think the world should be and more about how people are actually doing it out in the world, which I always think is going to be more interesting.

Mary Wisniewski: It often can be. And now my brain is conjuring up. You reference liquid death. And in this, in this version of the book, which I think is really cool for those who are maybe unaware of liquid death, it's water, but it's like, branded. Branded with an edge. I remember I was doing a yoga class and I saw someone with the bottle. I was like, is that liquor? Um, but then I learned, no, it's water.

Allison Netzer: Yeah. And it's the only way I can get my sons to drink, uh, water is liquid death water because they think they're, like, you know, cool and being dangerous, but that's the only way I can get them to hydrate, which is why I started looking into liquid death. And then they ended up in the book.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, they ended up in the book. And it's a point of, like, brand messaging is so important. And there's like a bottle of water could just be like, a bottle of water. Just like a bank account. Could be a bank of account. But, like, what do you think is, like, the most important takeaway for a bank or credit union or even a fintech company? And, like, thinking about an example, like, liquid death.

Allison Netzer: Yeah, I think it's a good example because we talk all the time about, you know, for better, for worse. We're mostly in a commoditized industry. Right. There's only fintechs there's only so many ways to check your balance. With banks, there's only so many ways to. Yeah, you can make it spin around. You could do lots of things. I mean, I'm joking, but you get the point. Like, at a certain point is kind of like the iPhone camera, like, how much better can it get? Um, and the choice you make, the strategic choice you make, whether you're in banking or fintech, is you can throw your hands up and say, well, we're a commodity industry, so, you know, we're just going to kind of go with what we got. We're just going to status quo it. But if you take the Liquid Death example, they made a group in what we would kind of call our ICP or ideal, uh, customer profile. They took that audience and they made that audience the hero of the story. And the backstory with Liquid Death is it started with rock and roll musicians who wanted to hydrate on stage but didn't want to look stupid with, like, a bottle of Dasani, but also didn't want to, like, crush beers. Right. Because. So that's how it started. So instead of saying, look, water is a commodity, just put a sticker on it, put it on stage. They really leaned into how can they take a commodity plus a customer problem and bring those together. So they didn't make the water more expensive at first. They didn't flavor it. It was just straight up water. It was the packaging and positioning around it, which is a lot of what brand think is. It's not saying you need to create a bunch of new products to reach your customers. It's a lot of times the clarity in the packaging and positioning around it, but not accepting defeat. Like we cannot accept, well, we're a commodity maybe. Right. Maybe the product is. But the problem to your customer is anything but a commodity. More than likely, it's the first time they're running into it first. Home savings, children, like, it is not a commodity to them. It may feel like a commodity to us.

Mary Wisniewski: No, I think that's such an important part. And this is part, like, I name this show for multiple different reasons. But one, money isn't everything. Because, like a bank and a credit union don't just want to be a place that holds money, um, because that's not, you know, compelling, um, in terms of trying to get customers.

Allison Netzer: Yeah. Which is why.

Mary Wisniewski: Just that little old thing. Just that little old thing.

Allison Netzer: But, uh, it's the messaging, Right. And that's a lot of times when people find, oh, you're into, you know, you're into branding or you're a brand marketer. It's not always about the visuals. The visuals can certainly help, but unless you've got that real clarity of who you serve and why you're serving them, and spoiler, it's not who you serve or people in your community because they live there. That's not an answer. Gotta, uh, go deeper than that. Just like Liquid Death did and really keep clicking down until you can get something that just pulls you out of that commodity view internally. Because unless you pull out of that internally, it's never going to manifest externally.

Mary Wisniewski: I totally agree. And that's really the key to success. Um, well, this brings up. There's one segment of the show called that's what you said in this case, that's what you wrote. And there were so many good lines. So I was really challenged. So you'll see me sprinkling it throughout this conversation. But one is your biggest competitor isn't another fintech or bank. It's the belief that you already understand your market. I love this. Um, but let's, like, let's unpack it a bit. I mean, what, what. So I imagine you, you probably see this a lot in the industry of like executives thinking this. So what's, what's wrong with it? And how can one course correct?

Allison Netzer: Sure. I tell you, it is, uh, it's a little bit of a tough love moment and it could be awkward, uh, in meetings. To bring it up to, you know, one, you're not the customer. Right. You may have worked at the bank or the FinTech for 20, 30 years. You may have spent some time on the front lines. But that assumption, Mary, I call it the assumption trap. Like that to me is the biggest competitor because it calcifies your thinking. You're making massive assumptions with little tiny slivers of data and a hell of a lot of filters put in. And the mission is not how do you serve. Mary, Today, on Monday, March 2nd. Right. That assumption that I know what you're coming in for and I know what you're about, that may work for today in today's conversation, but what I'm trying to do is appeal and be with you for everything you aspire to be, whether you're a bank buyer or you're a bank consumer. So my aperture has to be so much wider than just my personal lived experience. But keeping the eye out for assumptions, like, is that assumption or is that fact? It's huge. And there's a whole kind of checklist you can go through. And I Do it myself. Because as long as I've been doing this, I make assumptions right off the bat when I'm meeting with people, I'm like, oh, this is your problem. This is it. This is it. I stop listening. Mhm.

Mary Wisniewski: Mm.

Allison Netzer: Right? And when you stop listening, you stop branding. So it's, uh, it's a, it's kind of a silent killer. But, man, it's pervasive.

Mary Wisniewski: You know what? That just makes me think every, everybody in this industry needs an editor. Because one of the lessons I learned, like writing an American Banker, like, it's brutal. Getting great at it, but it's like, is this a fact? You know?

Allison Netzer: Yeah, but it's so, it's so powerful. And it's, it's about being factually correct, but it's also about the mindset. Because as an editor and one of the things I think makes you great at editing and all the things you're doing is there's a curiosity. And we've talked about that before, when you get beyond the assumption, you also start getting into that curiosity. And that's where that creativity comes from and that energy, and that's where you can move mountains. Right? But if you stay in that assumption world, besides maybe not having the facts correct, you're not, you're not kindling any kind of curiosity. It's the same shit, different day. And that just erodes. It erodes you, and it erodes your brand.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, no, that. And you see, I see this a lot in the industry, and it is, it's, it's a, it's a dangerous thing. And it also something else you had written. Um, busy isn't the same as bold. And I sort of feel like these things connect because I feel like there's a lot of people who just think, let's task check, task check. I'm doing all my stuff. But like, maybe you're not creating something interesting that will elevate the brand and ultimately your business. But that's my interpretation of your sentence.

Allison Netzer: But what is.

Mary Wisniewski: I think it's a big interpretation of your sentence.

Allison Netzer: We're gonna go with it. No, we're just going with it. And it's funny, I had that T shirt on earlier, but then I was like, oh, I'm gonna dress up for Mary's podcast, so put on this jacket. Um, but yeah, no, busy does not equal bold. And it kind of goes back to when I was talking about so much of a marketer's role is unfortunately, to try to justify our existence. Right. And the easiest way to do that is just to have a whole checklist of stuff that we've done. Right? Activity based marketing. But man, I gotta tell you, uh, I meet with so many, especially on the fintech side of things. You know, they're year five, six, seven and they've been doing stuff and they've been investing, they've got the product, the messages in the market, but they haven't broken through yet. And it's because they haven't done anything bold. They've done a ton of stuff. But as a marketer and as a company, it actually works against you because you're doing 20, 30, 50 things. How are you going to single source attribute anything? Right? You're going to be worn out. It's just like, just when you're just doing stuff, you're contributing to the noise and you're either going to be a victim of the noise as a brand or you're going to break through the noise. I know that's overly simplified, but it's like you're creating your own again with assumptions. You're creating your own competition when you just do activity based marketing because you're putting mixed messages out there that you end up fighting against. You got to put a webinar out there to clarify the campaign that you did a month ago that was scattered and it's just like this and this and this. Instead of taking a moment and saying we're going to do one thing and this is easier said than done, but we're going to focus on breaking through, not on contributing to noise. And it's hard because it's risky internally as a marketer, but it's just what I've seen to be successful.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, I've heard you also mention like campaigns maybe aren't your favorite thing as a general thing. She's not my least favorite thing. I want to talk about that. Why are they your least favorite thing?

Allison Netzer: Well, I think some of it is PTSD from being an old school marketer in many ways and being judged on like my campaigns back in the day. Mhm. But look, it gives you this false sense of security that you're doing and accomplishing something. We're running a campaign. Well, what does that mean? Break it down. We've got some ads out there, maybe we don't know what. We've got a collection of stuff that we're doing that we've sort of loosely thematically put together. Who does that serve? It doesn't serve your customer, it serves you. Did they ask for three webinars, two white papers and six ads? Probably not. But that's when a campaign.

Mary Wisniewski: There's someone out there, Alison, who would ask for that, and that would be an interesting individual.

Allison Netzer: That is awesome. And they're probably not going to love working with me, but I'm saying it a little tongue in cheek, but it goes back so much to, who are you doing this work for?

Mary Wisniewski: Mm.

Allison Netzer: And if it's for you or it's because your competition has done it, my very strong advice to you is not to do it because you're contributing to the noise, which makes it harder for you to break through, so you're hurting yourself. Right. Campaigns are an organizing principle for messages and stuff. You want to get out there, think beyond that and think of better ways to do that than just by lumping them together and saying that you're out there in the market. It's just a false positive.

Mary Wisniewski: It is a false positive. And now I'm remembering. We were on a panel in AFT together in the fall, and one of your points was like, not everyone needs to be posting on LinkedIn from a company. Um, and I want. Yes, I imagine it's because voice, style, matter. Um, just writing whatever sentence is not going to be catchy. But, I mean, let's unpack it a bit more. Like, why. Why is it important that someone isn't necessarily writing on LinkedIn just because they see other people doing that or whatever?

Allison Netzer: No. Uh, when I say this to people, they're like, wait a minute. Don't you want everyone, you know, have personal brand and be out there? Like, maybe. But as a marketer, the employees are my audience too. Right. And if I'm working with the cto, that's literally going to break out in hives if he or she has to write on LinkedIn. Like, why would I do that to that person? Um, they might be amazing at doing a technical AMA or ask me anything. They might love going and being a host at hackathons, which no one else in the company wants to do. So it's like, know your audience and deploy them in the way and distribute them. Because you productize the person, distribute that CTO in the way that he or she is going to be the most comfortable, because then they'll be the most effective. If you've got an amazing talking head as a CEO, get him and her or her in every possible thing where there's gigantic pictures of their heads and quotes. They love that. They'll do it all day long and their audience expects it from them. So it's, again, it's not about just taking Things like do a campaign, do LinkedIn. What you're really wanting to do is find the people to productize in the company and deploy them, the right product to the right person. Just like you would a technical product. It's the exact same thing.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, no, I can feel that on a personal level because I know when I've been um, made into doing certain tasks that I'm like, oh, this isn't exactly my medium. I'm like, get ready for some awkward.

Allison Netzer: Yeah. And it's. Nobody likes that, right? This cringe for everyone. And it's not like the CTO in this example. It's not letting them off the hook to row the boat. It's just finding them a spot where they can be really effective. Because again, if I'm just chasing the C suite around to publish the canned messages that I give them on LinkedIn, that's me being busy, that's not me being bold because I'm running around. Have you posted your LinkedIn yet? You really gotta get on LinkedIn. Like what? You know, so they don't want to, okay, what do you want to do? And let's do that, let's start there. Because I can't really give you data that says, hey, if you do these awkward kin messages on LinkedIn, we're gonna sell more stuff. I don't have that data point.

Mary Wisniewski: Nobody has that data for you.

Allison Netzer: Nobody has it. Still do it.

Mary Wisniewski: Mhm. Well, I also want to draw from one of your personal examples and it's when you were working at Nimbus, because in your book I saw that you went from 192 page website to a single one that is one page. I love cutting things out. I don't think enough people know like that is the art of a story. It's like cutting out is what makes something pop. Not adding that. But that is a huge reduction. Alison, how did you, how did you do that? And did it hurt? Yeah, yeah, it hurt.

Allison Netzer: Uh, it was extreme and it was risky. So I can't remember the name of the, the person who got the famous kind of example like, um, I wrote you a long letter because I didn't have time to write you a short one. Right. You know, it takes longer to cut down than to add. Yeah. And you know, it was at that point in our, in Nimbus company history where we wanted to really be seen differently. Not just for the technology that we're bringing to market, but just the type of company and culture we were becoming. Just very simple and very purpose based. And you know, Normally when you step into a website project, you got a bunch of pages, you start cutting it down. And we tried that for the first few days. I was like, no, we're going to go to a one page website. If we can't clarify in one page what we do, then the rest of this is. Again, it's just noise. It's just screwed. Right? So we did. We just did one page. And still actually, if you go to it today, it is technically one page with some links out. But besides it being kind of an extreme visual example, I have to tell you internally how much it kind of clarified for the teams what the mission is, who we were there to serve and how we did it, you know, and all CEOs, all C suites are always like, we need to find our North Star. We need to get everybody around the North Star. There is no better way to do that than force yourself to get onto a web page, one single webpage. I mean, even if you just did it as an exercise and not in real life, we did it in real life. It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing what it'll do because you just got so much stuff left over and all that legacy stuff, that's all emotional weight too, internally. Right. It's not just that you have 15 product pages, you've got 15 sets of PTSD for all those products that every employee is looking at every day. So, yeah, it was, uh. Yeah, but it was extreme. I remember it. And, um.

Mary Wisniewski: I bet you do. Yeah.

Allison Netzer: You have a backup plan, right? You can always revert. Um, but I love that we went with you.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, no, there's always an undo button. I like this. I like that as the thing. But always.

Allison Netzer: Yeah, there's no, there's no permanent decisions. Right. Even marriage. Um, you can always go back. And in all seriousness, like, that's how a lot of the kind of crazy things that I've done and continue to do, how I position them, like, we can always go back. Like, we can always change it back. Like. But part of branding and marketing is to get people to notice. And so, yeah, if you go down to a single, uh, dark background website after looking like corporate whatever, for however many years, people are going to notice. Mission accomplished.

Mary Wisniewski: Mission accomplished. Yeah. That's like cleaning the ultimate junk drawer, which I have at least five to seven of.

Allison Netzer: Absolutely.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah.

Allison Netzer: But you know what? You can clean it out and you can always throw this stuff back in.

Mary Wisniewski: All right. Well, I really love that point. And then I wanted to. And this is equally as important. And I think under um, discussed in the industry. And that's, you make, you make the point that distribution is like just as critical as creating the content. And I see this, I feel this, I know this from many different professional roles. But, um, you know how often brands, especially financial service one, start thinking about distribution, like I would say from before creating the content.

Allison Netzer: Yeah, absolutely. So content, especially with AI, the bar is lowered in many ways, but anyone can create content. And that used to be kind of the long pole in the tent. What I love about prioritizing distribution is one, it's a great way to differentiate because there's lots of kind of niche and smaller and more purpose built distribution channels for your content. So you're not contributing to noise, you're actually contributing to the conversation that's happening there. Having great distribution channels also means you can finally take advantage of all those great relationships you've built over the years. Right? You can't, I mean, you can buy some distribution, but like the really good distribution that actually usually comes from relationships and the quality of what you're putting out there, not the quantity. And so I think when you're developing content, of course you always think about who you're writing it for, but you also want to think about how it's distributed. And I don't mean make it shorter for Twitter and longer for this. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. That was kind of the approach five years ago. It's really looking at say, XYZ website, what do they have up there now? What could you put out there that would be different? Whether it's the way that it looks, the way that it sounds. Being a student of the game, not just of your own company, but of the companies that are there to distribute your message. And if you become experts on those and build relationships with those folks, knowing who the podcast producers are, not just the person that talks on the podcast, that's where those breakthrough moments really come from.

Mary Wisniewski: Well, um, I really love that point and it kind of blurs into this point that you also make of like purging the bs, um, from any kind of content. And it's like everywhere, right? Like it's platitudes left and right, you know, like, um, but you, you had given examples and one that I just put a note on was swap in buyer language, not internal capability. Words don't say integrated solutions for digital transformation. Say we help banks build brands that drive growth. I think that is very striking and very telling and certainly, um, um, something the industry needs a lot of work on in My opinion.

Allison Netzer: But yeah, it's hard to do. It's hard to do because in many cases, you know, the companies and the FIs have become, you know, product led. Um, it's not necessarily a bad thing. But then the language starts to seep in as well. Right. And it goes back to that assumption. Well, everyone knows what um, ach is. No, they do not. You know, everyone. No, they do not. Right. So we're. Because we think about it all day long. So of course, you know, I mean, even direct deposit, like man, maybe. But again, that's not the point. Like who are you writing this for?

Mary Wisniewski: And you're not.

Allison Netzer: Right. If you're writing it to explain yourself, then you're not at the right message yet. So you have to keep layering it down, right. Until you're actually speaking in real language. And it's not to manipulate or to get people necessary to listen to you more. That happens. But the reason why I push folks to get to that point is so that internally they can keep in mind who they're doing the work for and who it benefits and that they're not the customer. Right. So it actually forces that internal discipline that also has the benefit of attracting more customers, you know, externally as well.

Mary Wisniewski: Alison. Ah, you've given um, the audience so many ideas here in this conversation and I'm wondering, any, any like, creative exercises you find work for a lot of different brands to help them e, you know, get better with their language or, you know, declutter their content?

Allison Netzer: Yes, declutter their content. Well, you take a broom. Yeah. Listen, I love exercises exercises kind of game based stuff. I mean, Shameless plug anything I use with my clients, like frameworks or games or exercises. I actually put all on the website. It's not gated. So everything I've ever used in a workshop is there like the Assumption audit, is there Box Edge, um, which is kind of how to quit trying to lead with your differentiation. Start with your box and then differentiate. All of that is there, um, if you're not into that, A book that I love and I absolutely use religiously is Game Storming. So I bring, you know, a game or an exercise and even if I'm just doing it myself to, to run those exercises and I do it all the time, um, just to try to get better and better. But um, yeah, audits, little checklists. Again, it can't be this huge transformation where we have to throw everything out and all of a sudden we're going to start doing this and this just like anything, it's like Start small or I always recommend starting as your own internal communications. If you're going to get on the stage and say we need to use customer centric language and we need to be clear, but you're not doing that yourself on your own internal emails. Right. So it's always start with yourself, like, you know, kind of be the change, if you would. And then it's interesting, the responses you get back start to be a little bit different tone. And so then when you go to roll out, say, new messaging, it's not like, oh great, it's another marketing initiative with new messaging, it already sort of feels like you're doing it. So it doesn't feel like it's coming down from the top or randomly. It's like, yeah, I already do this. No big deal.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, uh, no big deal.

Allison Netzer: It really is no big deal.

Mary Wisniewski: I mean, most of the time, all the time. And all of the time, really. It just depends what kind of mental state one is in when one is the employee.

Allison Netzer: True.

Mary Wisniewski: But Allison, um, you alluded to your website and I wanted to ask if people want to reach out to you, what's the best way?

Allison Netzer: Mhm. Yeah, I hang out on LinkedIn all day like a weird LinkedIn stalker. So LinkedIn's great. The website BrandThink Co, it's got all my stuff on there. Um, I love to hear from folks if you've read the book, if you haven't, you want a copy, whatever. Um, I learned from the dialogue. This is why I started the company. Right? Because at a certain point you've done all the things, so you're only going to learn and get better from talking and working with others. So, um, yeah, everything that's out there has been tested on a real person.

Mary Wisniewski: And uh, two last questions. And you've mentioned AI a couple times, Gen AI. And I'm wondering, you are seeing so many more professional, um, workers produce something or other to varying degrees of good, bad. And of course that's a little bit arbitrary, but sometimes it's obvious. But what do you think the advantage is? Now, for a world in which everyone's a content producer of varying degrees of, uh, skills, let's say, um, what is the advantage? What is the advantage that one ought to aspire to or seek out?

Allison Netzer: Yes. Yeah, another great question. I think if I had a magic wand, I would have us all quit trying to detect what's AI and what's not. It's this weird obsession we all have. That's AI Slop. That's not. It's like, okay, I mean, did you get something out of it? Okay. You know, if you did, you did, right? I mean, uh, nothing is a difference. If someone's charging you millions of dollars for something that they spent 10 minutes on, that doesn't make sense. But, like, this obsession on this.

Mary Wisniewski: I wish it made sense.

Allison Netzer: I mean, that'd be amazing. Yeah, but you get what I'm saying. It's like, I think there's a fine line, but what I love about AI coming at it from a marketing perspective is two things. One is our value, at least in my mind, has always been about the edit, the taste. Right? People talk a lot about taste. And you know what? Uh, not just that you can do something, but where should it go? How does it fit into the overall story? Not just producing it, but the quality? And also, again, where are you going to distribute it? Ads that contribute to the narrative, really thinking through those pieces and allowing us to spend our time on those, because that's where I think great marketers and great strategists shine. And I also think it's. Again, this might be more kind of my. My agent stage, but with using AI, like, I wake up feeling like I want to build something, I want to create something. Like, I am breaking things, I'm screwing things up. I'm learning from them. Um, and I'm, like, hacking away in my little terminal window, you know, late at night. But the. Am I writing any better? Maybe. Am I producing more stuff? Maybe. But, man, like, the mentality that I'm bringing to it is, like, totally refreshed, right? Because it's like that builder mindset. It's like, if everyone is doing it this way, like, how can I do it even better? Right? How can I bring more of me into the AI so I stand out? So I. I think it's really rejuvenating a lot of, um. And kind of making me fall in love with a lot of the parts of marketing again. So that's. That's what's cool about it for me. I mean, it's never been about doing stuff faster. Like, there's always been ways to do that. But, man, like, getting. Getting back to that builder energy. Like, that's. That's it.

Mary Wisniewski: That is it. It's. Yeah, it's that frantic energy that it can create in YouTube. And, uh, Allison, last question. What's the image on your phone's lock screen?

Allison Netzer: Image on my phone's lock screen. I don't even know. I use dumb phone.

Mary Wisniewski: Oh. Oh, well, that's telling. And that's something I should do, too.

Allison Netzer: Yeah. Uh, so I don't have one is the answer. It's a black screen. And it did. It says messages, podcasts. That's it.

Mary Wisniewski: I love it. I love it. Well, Alison, such a treat to be able to chat with you again. Thank you so much for the time today and joining me.

Allison Netzer: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on.

Mary Wisniewski: Okay, so one thing I want to exclamation point is her point. Busy as in bold. And the one thing the industry shouldn't do that is take this attitude of we're just gonna status quo it. Not a good idea for growth. And remember, Liquid Death gave Water a cool rebrand. Next up, I'll be speaking with Algo Pair in April. But, um, you could see me before then. If you're at Fintech meetup, please say hello. I'll be on a panel and also be, like, working it around the corner casino, um, in meetings.

Allison Netzer: Catch you then.