The Gig-Work Economy Has a Banking Blind Spot

Mary Wisniewski: Foreign. Hello, it's me, Mary, Editor at large at Cornerstone Advisors and host of Money Isn't Everything, a show that explores anything other than just holding money, because that's a commodity thing. Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to quickly note that this is actually my final episode hosting Money Isn't Everything. It is definitely bittersweet, but I'll reflect a bit more on that at the end. And for now, just super excited to get, uh, in today's conversation. Today on the show is Jay Millard, who is the chief revenue officer at Wallet. That's a fintech company offering cash advanced solutions to gig economy workers, including rideshare and delivery drivers, as well as small business owners. To put a number on it, they have more than 600,000 users. We talk about the price of gas and ripple effects on Uber drivers and others who make a living using their car. This kind of audience is less paycheck to paycheck as it is day to day, according to Jay. We also talk about cash flow under underwriting, and Wallet's new rewards program. Here's our convo. Jay, welcome to Money Isn't Everything. It's great to see you again.

Jay Millard: Great to see you. Thanks for having me.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, uh, we saw each other last and for the first time at FinTech meetup. And I, um, know since then you have been to California for a conference that I think is really important because your audience are gig workers. That's who you're serving. And the price of gas right now is. It's wild. In California in particular, it's over $6. It's, of course, affecting people's cash flow. Um, and for gig workers, that's already sort of a dicey, dicey game, and I imagine it's getting dicier. But, Jay, I mean, what, what are you hearing from your end? You know, are, are the Uber drivers needing more cash advances? Are they getting off the road or, you know, what are you hearing? Anecdotally?

Jay Millard: Yeah, you know, we, we found out from a couple different levels. I mean, we hear it every day on the phone calls that we talk to and sort of, we see it in from the, um, request for advances. But I think when you dig in and we have an opportunity, not only at the conference, but we followed up with a focus group with some folks in town in California. Um, they're really feeling the pinch, and I think it really just completely constrains how much they have in their available income. But the most obvious thing, which, I mean, when you think about it, it is obvious, but it's such a human aspect of what we're seeing is that people are just working more hours in the day. So we were talking to a lot of folks in our focus group and they were working as many as, uh, increasing the hours to just pay their bills. So that was as many as like, at least six days a week, at least, you know, up to 11 hours a day. And so you start talking about, you know, they still have the same obligations in their lives, but in order in the gig world to make that money they need, they're, they're increasing the number of hours they're working.

Mary Wisniewski: And I have to imagine they're feeling more stressed. That's probably less sleep, more stress from the unknown. But I mean, did you explore the emotional state of, um, you know, the ripple effects here?

Jay Millard: Yeah, I think that's interesting because, you know, you really, when you sit down and talk to people, I think you feel the uncertainty. There's a lot of things that drive uncertainty. I mean, you know, the conference talked a lot about with automation and all the things that are going on. I mean, the gig world is here to stay. But this group, I'll, um, give them credit. I think one of the things we've always seen is the resiliency and the evolution and the adaptability. I mean, so. But I think they're constantly thinking about, where can I go to earn the greatest amount of money? So one of the things they'll talk about is that while they tend to drive or work for one platform more frequently than you think, I mean, Gridwise points out that about 25% do what's called multi apping, which is sort of like you're on multiple platforms. Most of them, I think, will hit more than one platform in the course of the year, but often will be working a single platform right now that's paying the most. And so what you're seeing is sort of this seeking out of, where else can I find those opportunities? And there's a, there's a little bit of stress of where is that? Where can I find that, um, that, that money to cover their basic needs, and the amount of those basic needs is growing. And there's a lot of just anxiousness around that uncertainty that's in their minds right now.

Mary Wisniewski: I think you hit on a point that I know a lot of banks and credit unions care about. And then it's like, you know, for the longest time the industry was talking about, like, and they still are. It's just in an AI lens about, like, personal financial management and the tools that they offer and um, you know, like, if you follow this budgeting tools suggestions, you'll be okay. But what you're saying basically, I mean, it's an income challenge. So I personally think it's long been an area of opportunity for um, the industry to potentially like help people find sources of income. And I think I've even said it, seen it in an app that was called Steady that I believe maybe sunsetted, but it was supposed like even out cash flow and also perhaps like link people to other sources of income. So especially for like the gig workers, um, that matters. But I'm just kind of curious, have you seen examples of this of like income optimization or, you know, how are, how are, how are your customers, um, finding out what pays the most in any given moment?

Jay Millard: Yeah, it's interesting. They're very tuned in, but they use a multitude of apps and they're constantly investigating and there's uh, a, there's a lot of word of mouth and referral. This group is a very interesting group that shares best practices, ideas, apps, but they're, they live in a fragmented universe when it comes to the resources there. And I think that's one of the things where Wallet thinks about what role can we play? I think we think about, you know, the how do you help sort of use technology to create a center point for all these challenges you're facing where no one's really focusing in a meaningful way to cover kind of that center of your financial life. For a gig worker, it's a complicated group to understand. And so I think we looked back and realized that trust is the underlying piece of the puzzle that before you can do anything else, and we have so much trust built with our clientele that we start with that problem space they live in and build out from it. And so I think right now what we're trying to figure out is how do we help you grow in your financial life? And we realize the more we listen to the customer, what they're telling us is give me an easier way to manage and grow in my financial journey in one place, bring me the resources I need. And I think where a lot of people in fintech are trying to bring cool solutions to and find an audience for that, we've got a wonderful group of people that we're building out from for that cool solution. And while there's overlap in the cool fintech needs, we're tailoring every step of the way where there are gaps and breaks in the banking system and there are gaps and breaks in the fintech world. And there's gaps and breaks in the resources available. And so when you start inside, what's causing that, what's breaking down and what isn't serving it, you really start with what is the nature of gig work and who is the gig worker. And then from there you can start closing those gaps because it's. I'll call it. We're an app that's built first from the, from the problem space of the gig worker out, not from the, the other way in. And I think that's going to be the key because this group has been surprisingly large. I mean, you know, you think about it, there's over a third of the, you know, U.S. economy by some, some accounts is involved as their primary source of income is, is in gig work. And even a higher percent, closer to 50, by some accounts, have done some form of gig work in the last 12 months. So when you think about it, it's like, it's a crazy statement to think the amount of people that are impacted and how disconnected they are from the solutions they need to really manage their finances.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, it's definitely not a fringe thing. This is like becoming like the generalist, right? Or, you know, I have a bias here in la, but um, I did notice when I was looking up your app, I think I was in the Apple Store when I saw this, but like, wow, really good reviews. Um, like, I think the last number I saw was like 4.9 rating, um, like overall, which feels um, really high to your point of like building the product for solving their, Solving their problems.

Jay Millard: Yeah, for sure. I think when I think about our founders, it was originally built kind of with a boots on the ground, talking to the people about what they need. And our founders were really understood. This group that they felt was left behind, our CEO is from the Dominican Republic. And one of the characteristics that's often found is that there's a diverse group of people that aren't served in their own language. We're a bilingual platform. So many folks in the gig economy, a significant percentage, um, include Spanish speakers, among others. And so by providing the app in both languages, providing support, that's one dimension of what I would consider the financial inclusion, um, element of who we are. And then I think, um, if I get into this is my bias, of course, but if I think about where folks are often left behind, if you were to ask a lot of folks, and I hear this consistently, is that people don't understand who I am. Well, what are some traditional systems that are evidence of where that comes from? Like A, uh, legacy system like, uh, FICO scoring or things that are, we think about how we use cash flow and better understand the dynamics of the ups and downs of the gig worker. But again, that started with person to person conversation. So we built a solution that was service first, it was people first, it was product problem first. And then as you scaled, you realized you had found something that was a much bigger need than even you might have originally realized. The layering in technology to make that better. You built service at the core and then you just figured out how to use technology to scale that, but you didn't ever lose that piece of it. And so one of the reasons why every time I go somewhere like the conference in Los Angeles, I take the opportunity with my team to sit down with the clients is that that real time feedback is something that, first of all, whatever I think I know about this space is changing so fast and it's just amazing. And so I have to stay tuned in with this very dynamic space, but this very adaptable group. But even when we don't always get it right immediately, there's such an appreciation for the extent to which we go to just deeply understand their pain points that I think goes a long way. And it creates a challenge for me because what they're asking me is, they're saying, well, you haven't solved this part yet, but can you dig into this for us? And I think, I respect that. The fact that before they go seek it out, they're asking us, can you help me? And what I hear is, can you help me grow on my financial journey? And then I, while that feels wonderful, it also feels like a tremendous burden and responsibility to take serious action on because this group is so deeply in need of meaningful solutions. That's, um, what drives us, that's what drives our passion here.

Mary Wisniewski: That is remarkable. And I, I, I'm curious just from what you said, like, what, what's been the biggest surprise that you've discovered about a gig worker? That maybe you thought A, then it

Jay Millard: was B. Yeah, you know, I, you know, maybe there's sort of this, this identity around an individual platform. Or maybe there is, you know, was a sense, like we had a big shift in our, you know, if you can picture pre Covid, it's like everybody was doing rideshare and then, you know, the immediate adaptability to like, well, you would have expected some adaptability. The, our business just saw all that shift to delivery. And so when I think about the nature of a gig worker, it's like they're the Most entrepreneurial that, you know, that, you know, maybe some of the uniqueness of like if you've ever been in the back of an Uber and somebody's also got, you know, kind of their own other business they're working. Like there's just this entrepreneurialism and sort of this um. This, this, this. They're their own sort of batch of problem solvers that like you've never seen. And so we, you know, it's, it's like I think there's an intuition there and I think you have a sense of that. But as you get deeper in, you just realize how deep this is. Maybe not just a, an exception, this is sort of the reframing of work. Like this is how a lot of people are working today. But it comes with all the benefits that it brings. It comes with the challenges of like making ends meet and access to health care and things that are, that become a bigger challenge. So I think there's just sort of that element of really seeing the human flavor of like what is going on with that entrepreneurialism and how they're adapting to the challenges of their own economic needs, but also how just truly feature of their lives, uh, this truly has become for such a significant percentage of um, the US that maybe is more, more than people realize.

Mary Wisniewski: And Jay, it's definitely an area, um, an area of human, I was going to say, which is a really odd way to put it, but I think it's a mystifying area for financial institutions over the years. Sometimes I see an experiment or I hear this is for gig workers. And I don't think anything has succeeded really, um, that well when it's at um, least marketed as that from a financial institution. And I'm curious from your standpoint, I mean you've ment different gaps and how they're not served. Certainly I imagine underwriting is a big area of that. But I mean, what's missing, um, from the banking side of things?

Jay Millard: Yeah, I think definitely the legacy systems for approving folks, they're underbanked for sure. And so I think when you access. Call it the American dream, if you want, just call it the human dream. I mean at the end of the day you have a bank account, but how do you grow in your financial life? How do you get access to the tools? And it's interesting. I mean with all respect to the banks and other places, there's this element of trying to figure out everybody's got the solution two steps up. But how do you get from those first two really difficult steps and so this point of pain, if you're in a liquidity crisis and you're a gig worker who has inconsistent incomes, you think about where Wallet was formed. It was based on the idea that we understand some of those patterns. So fico for example consider punishes you for that. You're almost invisible to the banking system in that sense. Right. So to the extent that like uh, but uh, really ultimately a huge percentage of folks are running, you know, paycheck to paycheck doesn't begin to describe it when you're in this kind of a space. But there's, it's more like for a gig worker it's day to day. The highest, I think over 70% expect their money on a daily basis. They need to have access to it. So there's this sort of, this need that is, is sort of the system wasn't built for that and it's sort of whatever you want to call the current version of it. And so I think a lot of, a lot of great systems are designed for when you graduate into the next level. But there's sort of this, this kind of blind spot that exists from the banking system and the traditional financial institutions that are, hey, we understand there's a lot of those folks but we can't really see what's going on down there. So these patterns of their remittance behavior that comes from just paying your rent on time, paying your bills and your cash flow, you're not getting a lot of credit for that. That enables you to graduate to the, to the next level of quality products that do you kind of get sort of cut off from kind of growing into the next set of solutions. So I see us as filling a liquidity gap. There's an element of you're stuck today as a micro business or an entrepreneur or somebody who's a freelancer and you're, your business is stalled and this is the little bit of capital I need just to keep my car running to keep my, my, my business moving. And I don't have a solution for that. But if I can get out of that, how do I. Now I've done a lot of really good things well in the cash flow world. How do I get the next option to have access to the next growth opportunity for larger loans or different things in my life. And I, I see that as an opportunity for Wallet to bring more value into the, into the growth on your financial journey still continuation of that. There's not a lot helping you if you want to grow in your financial life there because they Can't. You're kind of a big blind spot to the, to the banking system.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah. Well, I mean, this is a huge question, but what do you think, uh, would help make someone less blind to the financial system?

Jay Millard: Well, I mean, so you have to meet me where I am, because if I'm at this beginning point, you know, it's interesting, individually, they make up a small amount of. There might be seen as volatility and sort of the way that somebody looks at you. I mean, it's just a difficult thing to embrace. But we have to really embrace who a gig worker is and what they're doing. So if you think about who am I, and I'm someone who has, you know, maybe my, you know, my ranges in any given week could go, you know, where, you know, from $500 to $2,000 in a week. And so these fluctuations are just sort of a, a pattern of a behavior in my, sort of the nature of my gig work. And it's a deeper sort of conversation to your point, about sort of thinking about risk and thinking about who's kind of making a bet on you. But as a whole, this is a foundational piece in our economy. And I think as a whole, these are human beings that are working really hard and these are some of the hardest working people you will ever meet. But there's inconsistency in the income patterns. So how do you understand that? The systems for evaluating your worthiness, your credit worthiness, just don't meet that. And so the cash flow underwriting component of it seems like a huge piece of sort of the beginning. That's like a table stake. But as you get in there, you know, um, one of the things that, you know, the daily things you're doing to perform well, um, one of these wallets building and we're launching full scale here in the next week, is a reward system, um, that sort of rewards you for the value of your daily behaviors and gives you a place to use those rewards and demonstrate that you've distinguished yourself and really what you do every day, but you can't show this to the banks. Like, so there's a way for you to earn benefits and, and do those kinds of things for just the daily activities. And I feel like the credit system shows you all that benefit. But sort of oddly, in this sort of a customer who's very cash flow driven, um, it's, it's like the system of, of rewards, the system of evaluation, um, the system that sort of propels you into progressing into the next product, um, has A different evaluation criteria. So you kind of just kind of get capped off right there and you're in. You don't have a lot of product solutions to kind of grow up. They. So, you know, so I think this meeting, that next sort of step is a stepping stone, but there aren't a lot of folks out there doing that. I mean, I think that's where we come in and say to ourselves, all right, well, how do we help bring this group into the next tier of solutions? So that now all of a sudden the more traditional view of like, what's going on is clearer. And some of that involves, for us, making more direct partnerships with banks who are more forward thinking, more, not only fintech forward, but are more designed for thinking about the nature of work that is happening in the gig economy that is just different than the nature of work that a lot of the traditional systems were designed around.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, I always thought that had to have been a huge disconnect that, um, like at a bank, that anyone working there is not going to be out of, quote, unquote, ordinary hours from like 8 to 5 or whatever on that, and then have, you know, paychecks every other week or once a month or whatever the case may be. It's a different. It's a different thing. And Jay, you mentioned rewards. So I want to know what's an example of the rewards program you, um, are doing? What earns rewards?

Jay Millard: Well, and so, uh, we actually call them, with the folks, we call them gig points as we do these rewards. So one of the things that we're doing, you know, one of the things that, um. I mean, simply put, you know, a lot of these, um, the other thing is like, say, for example, when we're providing an advance, which is an advance against future receivables. So we anticipate, based on your history of kind of your cash earnings and your gig work that's been up and down, give you access to some capital, and you set up kind of a weekly pattern for remitting, um, back to us. And just simply doing that is a way that. Doing that consistently. Um, well, we can give you access to some points for that. But I mean, simple things. I mean, we have a loyalty. You talked about the 4.9 rating. A lot of our folks, without us even asking, are telling a lot of their friends about us in this space. And so we're just, we're giving them the different points for that. But I think that. I think one of the things that we have is we have folks that complete entire advances over and over again and never miss a remittance. And I think that it's odd you're completely left out of sort of that even being part of the equation in the evaluation criteria of like I said, credit worthiness and other programs here. That is the reward itself for doing the routine things that are part of the fulfillment of that obligation. We're acknowledging that and tracking that and rewarding and incentivizing that and just things you're already doing. So I guess that's sort of the essence here is that in a way it's reinforcing the positive behaviors we're already seeing as it relates to that now we've added some fun other things. We've partnered with some companies where if company, if folks are in a downtime, we've actually connected to a way where folks can um, play games. And through those games advertisers will incent folks and give them um, financial rewards and we'll even let them cash them out for um, a gift card or other things that they can use to buy gas or do things that can help sort of, you know, so it's sort of even a way to sort of deal with these little downtime periods while you're waiting for the next ride or whatever. It's like let's give you some ways creatively to just sort of continue to build some of that a little bit of extra money on the side but through the rewards of what you're already effectively doing and just making it a little more fun along the way.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, no, I think that's great. The concept of rewarding for good behavior. There's a fintech startup called Debbie that I really like that rewards um, people for like paying down their debt for example. And you know, it's seemingly simple but wow, does that change the whole dynamic of a normal lending experience goes? Um, um, well I'm, I'm really excited about that and I, I want to. You had mentioned that you know bilingual Spanish. Um, while it understands, I think that's so important and I do think that's like an, like I'm surprised that more areas of fintech or financial services aren't multi language by now, but I'm kind of curious. Do you hear anecdotally, I mean when you, whenever you're at a conference, do you like tune in of like why or why not, um, an app is you know, offering experiences in different languages or why not? Or do you have an opinion on whether you know, Gen AI will help um, broaden um, the ways uh, an app might be interacting with its customers language wise?

Jay Millard: No, I think people. No, that's a good question. I think I take, I think people take for granted sort of the translation. I mean, one of the things that I think it's an oversight and it's a pretty big one. Um, but, uh, you know, the why is fascinating sometimes, but we've actually found ourselves and we, we partner for example, with, you know, a company that helps provide discounts, uh, on insurance. And so we find that, you know, we often will collaborate and some of the partners that we work with the best are the ones that will lean into the language needs we have more directly because I think we've, we've helped them understand and they've, in this particular example, they were great partners to work with us to sort of dig through some of the technical challenges because I think if you assume for examp that okay, the app will detect the language that you set your phone at, um, that it'll auto translate things and it'll make it work. The percentage of the time I found that didn't work correctly on a lot of app is way outside of a normal tolerance. In addition to that financial, you know, jargon, if you want to use the word is just not kind of, it's not helping users understand like the solutions and they feel a little bit, it creates a little bit of disconnect there. So we do a lot to very specifically ensure the quality of the translation through, you know, working through the nuances of the particular fintech solution. And so every time we partner, if we're working in an ecosystem with like say a third party partner, one of the requirements we have is that it's got to be as seamless as possible and how we handle the language transition. And I will say it's very frequent that either that conversation catches people off guard or they assume it'll work just fine. And it does, doesn't. And so, but I guess because of that point of pain, we have to lean into that, not run away from it. Because if we, if we stop there, we probably wouldn't be able to provide access in a, and kind of fulfilling more that vision of providing a way for you to grow in your financial lives, you'd be cut off. So instead what we tend to do is lean in with those partners and figure out how can we through the APIs and use technology to bring a more connected environment to our clients. And again, I go back to the building from the problem out. I think that it's one of the places where we feel the trust sort of the support from our clients related to that. Um, but you know, it is a fascinating part of the why. And you know, I can only assume based on what I've seen, that there's an assumption that tech handles it better than it does. And so there's sort of an oversight in the depth in which it's handled. But I can tell you there's a tremendous dissatisfaction from the folks we come across in our client base that from what the resources they have available in their own language. So, um, one of the things we work really hard on on our side is to make that happen. And I do expect technology to continue to enhance that experience. But it's still an area, uh, that is a pretty big gap. And so it's one we'd fill pretty well. But as we continue to grow on how we're going to provide more services, even if we're going to leverage a third party, we still have to work pretty closely with them to help them fill that gap because otherwise there's going to be still a disconnect when we connect through APIs to other partners.

Mary Wisniewski: Yeah, that's so true. And yeah, translation is such an art. You feel it in a novel. It's like it's very different sometimes depending on who the translator is. Um, so no, I think, uh, plus one to what the industry needs to do more of. And Jay, um, we have one segment on the show called that's what yout Said. And you said this. Um, and announcing. M might have been announcing a partnership with Douala earlier. Earlier in. But um, you also worked at Twila. So I want to get into that. But for that's what you said. You said if we are doing our job right, we're like an umpire in a game where you don't know that it is happening. Um, do you still feel that way?

Jay Millard: I think when in that context I do. I think in that context that was related to Douala is. I think that is related to when you think about what fintech is supposed to be doing, like in the money movement and some of the hard parts, like one of the things we do that relates to our better understanding is sort of in the real time understanding of those cash flow insights. So a lot of the problems, for example, in kind of the way open banking solves some of the problems that are being faced in more legacy systems, is that there's a more of a real time interpretation of what's happening in your financial life to be able to authorize that ach money movement. And so in that case. And so I think all of that stuff is what we're leaning on technology to just help the customer, the user in that situation get what they need, whether it's an advance in their bank account because they want their money faster or whether those remittances happen. Kind of call it auto magically. Right. And so at that point, none of how that works under the hood, that is where the umpire kind of analogy comes in. Because to me that, that all just needs to live behind the scenes. And so I think it's to enable that goal. So if you're working with a customer goal, then I think you'd use the tech to solve that goal. If you're enamored with the tech, you can sometimes forget that the user doesn't need to see all that. And I think that's, that's where sometimes we have to be careful as an industry not to, not to forget that like this is part of the, it's like when you do something really great, but it's behind the scenes. You have to remember that that's part of what makes it great. You can't just bring that out in the forefront. So, you know, a real time payment is not the simplest thing in terms of bringing that into an app where you have multiple methods to deliver a solution. We've got a way to use a debit card, we've got a way to use, uh, an ACH in the same day or a standard. We got a way to do a real time payment. But in the end it's like, I don't need to be a payments expert if I'm using an app. I just know that I need access to my money and I need to be able to choose between how quickly I can use it for different problems. And if somebody solves that for me, it's kind of cool that all those things are happening. But those should live behind the scenes. And I still believe that.

Mary Wisniewski: No, I think that's really cool. And then you brought up speed, which of course matters. And I especially think it has to matter tons for a gig worker. But when they're seeking out a, uh, cache of ends they need, do they need it that same day, like to pay for something?

Jay Millard: Yes, yes. I think a lot of the situations, I mean one of the things I, um, I'm so, this, so heartwarming. Like the emotion and the passion you see in some of the very authentic. Not just a five star review, but you know, when I think about some of the things that we talk, very real examples of, like someone who didn't have another way like their, their source of income was cut off and they weren't able to get back on the road and pay a bill. And like we can put the money in with a real time payment instantly. So the seamlessness through a mobile app to deliver the ability to interpret, understand who you are as a gig worker, provide the access to the capital, you're able to pay a bill and you're able to get your car back and you're able to get going. You're able to fix that so that you know, you're not just talking about that thousand dollar bill, you're talking about the lifeblood of your, call it, your small business that runs your daily life, your gig work, your freelance work. And so I think all of that being handled behind the scenes in a really elegant solution that combines a lot of really cool tech. But in the end we can move the money and do move the money consistently instantly through a real time payment. And so, uh, the access to be able to solve that problem, but solve it now is one of the core tenets here of what makes this successful.

Mary Wisniewski: And Jay, just a couple questions left, but one is um, about you. How should someone find you if they wanted to reach out? But there's a part two to that also. Like, what's the most exciting thing you're following in fintech right now? Or what kind of technology are you most hopeful might be, you know, help, let's say a gig worker graduate to the next level of what they need in the financial services realm.

Jay Millard: Okay, well I'll take the, uh, you find wallet from wallet.com and wallet is a funny thing. People probably think wallet with a W, it's with a U. So U, A L e t t wallet.com and so we also on the App Store and on Google Play, most of our folks who are using our service are through the mobile app. And that's where all the action happens to ensure that all of this is a gig worker lives their life often on the go. And this solution lives with you in a very seamless and easy to use mobile application. You know, in terms of exciting, you know, for me what's exciting is always building with a purpose. Right? So you know, for me, while it exists to build for, we're built for the gig worker. We have a platform that's designed to solve that problem. And so it's meaningful to me to feel like, okay, what do we need to do next that's going to impact your life the most? And so whether it's connecting to a third party partner that helps you save money. If you trust me, then I have to really vet hard how I'm working with partners so that if that's not in my core financial solution, but it's an adjacent opportunity to give you ways to save money, I still need to leverage and find someone who I can equally bring that level of trust so that I'm providing you and representing you well. Um, so I feel driven on that front. I think on the more I'll m tell you what, I think we have, you know, we have tens of thousands of clients going through this application who are ready for the next thing. And I think that when we think about some of the exciting things we're working on for this year, it's really related to this concept of what does it mean to graduate to the next thing. What does it mean to be able to take what you're doing and build on it? And so I think what we're starting to find is the opportunity through ways that we don't run credit on our clients, we don't share their information, but we're actually saying to our clients, now, what if we can translate your good behavior and authorize that to enable you to sort of demonstrate we can be a bridge to where you're disconnected. And I see this opportunity for us to be that bridge, for us to provide more of a way to sort of. So we're forming ways to work with banking partners and work with other entities to say, how can. So we're digging in hard on that problem to figure out how can we be that bridge for you? So we're very sensitive to what is authorized and how you would want to go that way. But it's, to me, it's always the logical conclusion of that conversation we're having with our client because they're asking us. And so we're saying, all right, well, here's how does this make sense to you? And so I see that as digging in. I think in terms of the tech itself. I mean, I'm more excited about my customer and I'm more excited about their problem space. But when I get excited about the tech, it's more, how can that help us do that faster? And so I see in the ways, you know, I think oftentimes people talk about AI as sort of a substitute or replacement. I see it as helping enhance the ability to do something better, faster, not a replacement. You know, even. I mean, shoot, you're out there with a waymo today and there's gig work because they're Paying somebody to close the door on a Waymo, right? So it's like, wow, at the end

Mary Wisniewski: of the day, I didn't know that was a. That's interesting, right?

Jay Millard: That's a thing. Somebody gets out of the car and forgets to do it. And so you think about the adaptability of the gig worker. It's like, you know, well, hold on a second. It's like, I'm not saying they won't figure that out, but they haven't yet. And so there's an opportunity that lives where the tech leads off and the business lead and the business picks up. So I just think of it as each of us should think of technology is empowering us as human beings to be more productive and live more. It should serve us in a more fulfilling way. Nowhere better should that serve us than in technology for the gig worker. And I see those places where, you know, we're out there problem solving with this group and saying, how can we use those kinds of solutions? How can we use AI to create a superpower to create, in this case, superpower for the gig worker? How do we create it where there's a harmony between the business and the tech because, you know, you can build that great car, but in the end somebody had to close that door. But tomorrow, when they saw closing the door, there's another problem. And if we just remit, if we figure out that harmony, then all we really are going to figure out is how to balance where the tech leaves off and the people pick up. And how do we make the lives of the human beings behind that technology better? And so I'm driven and passionate about how do we use technology to make the lives of the gig worker better.

Mary Wisniewski: No, I think that's a beautiful thing and I hope that's something the listeners take away and embrace for their own work. And Jay, last question. What's the image on your phone's lock screen?

Jay Millard: What's the image on my phone right now? Mhm.

Mary Wisniewski: Yes.

Jay Millard: Am I. Let me make sure I'm understood. This shouldn't be the hardest question of the call, but you're literally talking about it.

Mary Wisniewski: Maybe it's the most unexpected.

Jay Millard: Yeah, maybe you threw a curve at me. That was really a fastball that I stared at down the middle of the plate.

Mary Wisniewski: Say that again about Jay. What's the image on your phone's lock screen?

Jay Millard: I don't even know what. It's. It's art. It's just art.

Mary Wisniewski: Well, um, you know what, I'll take that as, uh, a beautiful thing that just underscores your beautiful notion about, um, you know, helping gig workers solve their problems and continue to do so as they evolve. So, Jay, thank you so much for being on the show today. It's been a delight to reconnect with you.

Jay Millard: Likewise. It's my pleasure.

Mary Wisniewski: Okay. One thing I learned is humans are still getting paid to close Waymo doors when passengers leave them open. That is a very telling detail in the Tech Human Chronicles. And again, this is my final episode, hosting money and everything. It's been a blast. One of my favorite things to do is interview people, and this show has brought me into the world of vibrant entrepreneurs who are trying out new ideas to improve something. Improve a lot of somethings. That's really wonderful. Two things that have stayed with me. Travel with a coffee maker. And what has become uncool today may become cool later, including friction. Thank you so much for tuning in. And the words of Devil Wears Prada, my T shirt. That's all.