I left Coca-Cola for a scale-up: here's what nobody tells you | Kerttu Inkeroinen, CMO @luckysaint

Speaker A: And today our guest is Kurtu, who's the CMO at Lucky Saint, who brings nearly um, 20 years of experience in global FMCG in brands such as Kimberly Clark, Coca Cola, um, and is someone who just comes with a litany of awards uh, behind her as well, uh, having been named by Forbes as one of the top 50 most entrepreneurial CMOs in the entire world. I take pride in mentioning this as well that uh, Curtu is a member of the community, um, having been part of the marketing YouTube community uh, during previous roles as well and behind the scenes has been nothing but delightful, warm, kind, engaged, uh, and really wanting to show up for the community. So I hope that uh, that comes through today in today's webinar as well. For everyone watching at home. Um, today will run purely as a Q and A and there is a small flag uh, to mention up front which is given that the nature of today's topic is about careers and not everyone would like their name mentioned. For example in the recording and the replay after um, what I'm not going to do, uh, if you do submit a question into the Q and A is read out your name and usually I would to acknowledge you and say thank you. I'm just not going to read out your name this time around so that nobody uh, feels that they can't ask a question if they would like to. Uh, hopefully that makes sense. Um, before we get started I want to say thank you to our sponsors because without them we won't be able to bring these sessions to you. So the first sponsor to mention is Prismic. Now Prismic have an event next next week. I think it is uh, all about getting cited by AI, um and how content teams can actually get their content cited by AI a little bit more. There's a QR code on screen but we'll also pop it in the follow up email after today's session. So if you'd like to attend that event, uh, it will be in the newsletter. The QR code is there. It's also on our events table uh, which you would have used to find today's session also. And finally a big thank you to all of our sponsors. To Canva, to Worcesterdia, to Frontify, to Cambridge Marketing College. Prismic and planable. Uh, you're all wonderful people behind wonderful brands. So thank you all so much for being here. So um, at this point I say a huge thank you uh, to everyone in the chat, uh, to Janneke who says I'm in the office in Edinburgh today. 25 degrees is too hot for me. Don't know how the rest of the UK is coping with much hotter temperatures. I don't know either. Uh, we are just not built for this. Anyway, let's get going with saying hello to Kurti. Thank you so much for spending the time with us. Yeah, hello.

Speaker B: Um, thanks for m. For having me and um, yeah thank you for everybody who's dialing in in the heat instead of uh, having lunch in the park.

Speaker A: It's a whole bunch you know, but like it's very much appreciated. So uh, let's get going with the questions. So you've spent your career across some of the world's biggest brands, uh, including the likes of Coca Cola, Kimberly Clark, um, and many more and then some smaller high growth businesses uh, such as Union Coffee and now uh, Lucky Saint. So looking back if you were to try and sort of contrast those two sets of experiences, what have those different environments taught you?

Speaker B: I think the first thing I'd probably say because I was thinking about this or have thought about a lot over the years and lots of people have asked me the differences between the two that it's not actually just um, big corporate versus scale up because I think in big corporates you've also got a lot of different roles and brands and um, different style of businesses within them. So I would say for example with Kimberly Clark, so Kimberly Clark, uh, Brandstar, Kleenex, Andrex, um Huggies, uh, all the very thorough um, blue chip FMCG brands. Um, and there I really got this drilling into commerciality. So I was also uh, working as uh, account manager so in the sales role uh for Tesco account and then brand marketing roles. And I went through their graduate training program. So you change different roles, you see the whole, whole business from category management to sales to marketing, um, so that was a very sort of brand building but also very commercial foundation. And then I would say moving on to Coca Cola again different style of organization. Um, so Coca Cola in the, in the UK set up as I was working the Coca Cola um, um, brand side which is separate business to the Coca Cola enterprises who are actually selling the product. So you are pure marketing brand function, uh, as in the total, total business. Um, and that was very much about brand love, longer uh, term brand building, thinking about how do you leave a legacy that's going to last 100 years and beyond. So very different structures and much more a global matrix structure in the business. Um, and then going into scale ups. Again I'd say in scale ups you have very different style of scale up so whether you are in a startup uh, which is a couple of people to uh, slightly, slightly bigger scale up its uh investment. Um so Union Coffee, um I moved from Coca Cola into Union Coffee and that was a bit of a shock to the system to, to say the least. So at the time um, I just took a bit of a risk and a leap of faith and joined the business because I love the ethos and the product. I really got along with the founders. Um but I arrived on day one. I was asking so what is the marketing budget where Budget. We don't really have a budget. It's just uh, um, put forward things and the founder science then off. Um and also I started talking about the brand and where any of the brand guidelines and how we think about that and response was um, that um, we don't really like to talk about brand and we don't really like the marketing speak. So very different environment from, from somewhere like uh Coca Cola. But it really taught me quickly because I was part of the leadership team, um the bigger overview of the business and how marketing actually fits into all of the nuts and bolts. So between production, finance, uh people, hr, uh, um so really getting this proper almost like scale style lifting over your eyes and you are really seeing, seeing how everything works together. So a huge um journey there and there. I also then took under me uh E Commerce. So uh, heading up the um DTC function and uh launching that for uni and coffee and that was complete huge learning again as a completely different, different area to um, to marketing what I've done before. Um and then I would say again moving to, I was there for certain years and then moving to Lucky Saint has been a different journey again. So uh, at Lucky Saint we've got um, investors involved. So that gives a different dynamic to the team completely and uh, how we the business and how we, how we function. And it been a continuous learning journey uh here and obviously different category, different opportunities, challenges, uh different growth targets.

Speaker A: Um, it's just wild. I mean there's so much there and so much richness. It feels like straight off the bat a real strong takeaway because we posed this question in the title of today's session was like big brand or scale up and make your choice. And it was almost presented as like this a bit of a dichotomy. Um, you know, whereas already I think there's such a strong question that you've left me with and the community with hopefully which is you know, if it's big brand, what kind of big brand or what kind of role within a big brand. Uh, and same with the scale up, you know, if it's a scale up, um, what kind of scale up do I want, etc. You know, and the role that I'm happy to see take into it. So it kind of feels like maybe big brand or scale up isn't the question that we should be asking. Maybe there's a better question, but I don't know whether there is a better question or not. Right. Do you think there is?

Speaker B: So I guess two things for me. One is um, so definitely I don't think it's binary because they are ah, you could take. And I often say um, I'd be happy working on a challenger brand in a bigger organization. Um, but it depends on like so you can have different setups. Ah so I personally am more excited about high growth, uh, pivoting, um, you know, change in. But it could be an older brand that's looking to, looking to change. So it's more about the challenge at hand, um, and the behavior of the brand, uh, and the category growth, um, versus necessarily like binary between big cooperation and scale up. The other one I would say you can also flip between the two. So it is not. It always feel like it's a huge decision to go either way. But I think our careers are ah, very long and you can do both in the however many years you end up working. Um, so the, the way I thought about it when I moved from Coca Cola to Union Coffee was that well if it doesn't work out I can always go back. So they feel like huge decisions. Uh, but you can normally always reverse it. Um, and it depends on what stage in your career you are. What do you actually want to learn over the next couple of years? What suits your lifestyle, ah, as well. Um, so I think that's to two bits. There's the type of the organization, uh, and then there is uh, um, your career and life cycle.

Speaker A: I love that. And um, I've got two questions to follow up on that answer. Uh, and they're both about the questions that you ask. So I'm curious if you are in the situation of being approached or approaching or deciding whether to work for a specific company. What questions did you ask when you were sat in the chair to sort of say this is the right challenge for me and then possibly a more introspective question which I'll remind you of in a minute because um, how do you ask the questions of yourself to kind of know what challenge you want as well? Because I think a lot of people may struggle with that, particularly right now where things can feel a little bit harder. Lot of folks, you know to sort of say this is the thing that I actually want to do, not the thing I have to do. So I guess first question is about uh, asking what questions you would ask of a brand or a company or a manager in that situation where you decided whether or not this is the challenge for you or what challenges they're having that you want to take on.

Speaker B: So I think I've honed in on the fact that I really enjoy um the high growth um challenge of brand uh building. Um so I am looking at uh the category that I'll be working in and looking at I think especially in a scale up context it's actually quite important in what, what's happening in the category. So is it, is the category in growth, is it in decline, is it static? Um because that's going to have a huge impact on, on your success as well or your challenges and opportunities. Um the other one is just personally important for me is the um, being purpose led. That could be in many different cases. Um, but um, I, I was very profoundly influenced by when I was working at Uni and Coffee and I went to Rwanda to see the coffee producers and seeing the impact that I could personally have in their lives by, by selling more, more of the coffee that they produce um, has left me kind of knowing that there has to be, I need to believe that what I'm marketing is setting ah either people who are consuming or people who are producing into um, ah a better place. Um the so category does it fit and align with your values and purpose? What kind of challenge are they looking to solve? Um some businesses are looking to you know reverse a decline. Some people are looking for rapid growth. Uh so understanding that challenge will give you a very good feel for what the work is actually going to be like. And um, finally I would say especially with scale ups um and startups I would uh ask also the you know due diligence on the, on the financials so do your obviously proper checks of the company's house but also questions around profitability, margins, understanding the dynamics, what is the path of the uh business just so you have a feel for um, what the next couple of years might look like uh with the business.

Speaker A: That's that helpful. Thank you, I really appreciate that. And like there's a lovely comment here that's coming again. I'm not going to be mentioning anyone by name here so but it says for me is having a marketing director in Place versus a sales MD direct port used to working ah, solo. So someone who really gets marketing and I love that as a contribution because it feels um, there's something about the structure as well. Right. You know, the structure you're going to be operating in to understand if you're going to be a good fit. It.

Speaker B: Yes. And one build I would give on that is um. I would say for example when I joined Union Coffee there was um, not. There was only one person in marketing, um you know, organizing the um events and more of that side. Um, but they did have um, a chairperson who was a ah, marketer and actually I had a few chats with him and he was an investor in the business as well. Um, and quite involved in the business. Um, and we discussed the fact that um, I can have his support and his guidance and advice, uh there. And that was actually important for me. So it wasn't necessary that there was the function existing. And I thought it was quite exciting to go and set up the function. But uh, to have somebody to lean on within the business uh, who has the same language, uh was important.

Speaker A: So I mean uh, we go out to the community relatively regularly and sort of ask about the challenges that folks are facing. Uh m. The most recent time we did this, uh, the challenge of uh, how to convince a skeptical boss of the value of marketing, um was the number one challenge that came back. And so to your point, you know, if someone's already on board and supportive in that way that makes a huge difference.

Speaker B: Um, I would actually add that um, for example with Lucky Saint, it was really important for me that the founder uh Luke is very um marketing led and brand um savvy, um comes from that background. Um, and also our investors, um are investors who are investing in uh businesses building brands. So having that feel for like even if the function isn't there, do you have the support from rest of the business and investors and founder?

Speaker A: I love that so much. I can feel the uh, toolkit being built uh in front of us in terms of the questions. And the second half of that very long question that I proposed a minute ago was around sort of knowing yourself and the questions to ask of yourself. Uh, I feel like you, you spoke to uh some of that just now already. But it strikes me that you started off that previous answer with a very clear sense of you know this is what I'd like to do but I feel like there's a lot of hard work to get to that point of being able to know this is what I like to achieve. Or these are the things that I enjoy. Uh, how did you get to that place? Because like, for someone, even for myself, that feels like a magnificent place to be in. And I'm not sure everyone is in that place.

Speaker B: There's a couple of helpful tools. One exercise I've done is um, you take a piece of paper and you draw up a timeline of your career. And then you draw on a scale of 1 to 10, sort of a line on how happy and excited have you been at different points of your career. And then you try to pinpoint what were the um, what was happening at that time. So for example, um, were you working on something challenging and exciting? Did something go wrong but then you managed to fix it? Or was it, you know, you were managing a big team? So it's understanding what is it that's actually, you know, making you happy. And um, you can fulfill those things very differently in different types of uh, organization. So then trying to almost create the brief for your perfect job from there, uh, would be, would be one for me.

Speaker A: I think that's wonderful. Thank you. You know like, uh, we've got ah, someone in the chat saying uh, I love the idea of this timeline. Um, we've also got someone else in the chat saying not a question, but I love how calmly and eloquent they care to share in their experience. Feels like the embodiment of a good human to have above you in an organization.

Speaker B: Oh my God, that's so lovely. Thank you.

Speaker A: Very, very lovely. Thank you to um, let's take us back to uh, big brands versus ah, scale ups because um, the grounding for this conversation was I know that in your own mentorship conversations you get a lot of people ask uh, about, about this as well. So should uh, absolutely make sure that we answer this question as we go. So um, you've previously in the research sort of compared large organizations and scale ups to living in the city versus the countryside. Um, and I thought this was a great analogy. So I'd just love to know what, what you mean by that.

Speaker B: Um, that was. I don't know if it's the best analogy, but that's, that's the one I thought of when I was thinking um, um. I guess the point of it is that neither is better. They both uh, fulfill different things in your life and they might both work but in different stages of your life. Um, um. And I'd say, um, I'm a bit of a both is in person. So I'm actually at the moment living half the week in London and half the week up in the peak district. So I'm trying to always get the best of both worlds, which is what I've done in my career as well. But uh, um, I think it feels like my main point about this um, dilemma between big corporates versus scale ups is that it feels like a huge decision. And yes they are very different environments. Um, but uh, none of it is permanent and they can both be great and a lot of us I believe would actually do brilliantly in both organizations. They would just have a very different shape in their role and use different skill sets. Um, but it's not to say that you are definitely one person or the other. Um, it can just depend on your time. So it's just going to have a different experience. In a city you enjoy all the restaurants and hustle and puzzle and uh, in the countryside you'll go for long rides and walks and you might enjoy both equally.

Speaker A: I love that so much. Honestly as I enter middle age then uh, you know one feels to feel a little bit more permanent and stuck in your ways. So to be able to have a bit of both isn't gorgeous. So thank you very much. Um, I feel like off the back of that answer is um, one has to be careful around sort of asking around binaries. But I guess if we were to continue on that track of conversation. Are there any things that like large organizations do especially well that you think people would uh, enjoy uh, versus a sort of scale up where the situation would be a bit different? Is there.

Speaker B: So I think you only really realize what uh, you are missing when you don't have it in terms of structure processes which might sound boring but actually you do need them and they actually do make things happen better and faster often. Uh, and they're necessary and you especially because I started in larger organizations, um, you get, you just take them for granted that things happen in a certain way and everybody knows their role. It's very clear who's doing what, uh, what the process is. Um, you're working on bigger timelines versus uh, in small organization you, you'll be the one setting up the processes. Um, the other one I'd say is the scale and the expertise that uh, you have access to. So you're working with the best agencies, um, the resources you've got, scale, ah of execution that you can deliver, um, and the support that you've got in the team. So you have specialists in the different areas and lots of peers that you can lean into. Um, which you do not in a scale up in the same way so in a scale up it's so important to have your network place. It's like the marketing meetup Rackle um where you can lean into because you are often like in the end like you will be the, the only person in the top table with marketing experience. So there's no one else to um lean into in that experience. So you need to build your network externally. Um but yes. So I think it's actually it's amazing when you look at uh, when you are running a campaign at Coca Cola how you know things mobilize across the whole whole country and uh um what you can actually deliver and the impact it can have. Um so uh, there's definitely good sites in uh large organizations uh as well.

Speaker A: I love that. And I've seen that there are a couple of questions in the Q and A from people who are uh earlier in their career and I guess you're again not trying to draw binaries out of you because this isn't what this conversation is about. But my head as you're answering there there's something about access. So access to the best agencies, access to uh your peer group etc etc in the larger organization versus uh the on the job exposure that you may get in the smaller organizations. And rather than sort of ask you which is best, which is a terrible question. I'm just curious on like your reflections on that. If you were sat in either someone in an early or a mid stage career like how would you ask them to kind of reflect on the choices that they're going to make in terms of those decisions? If that makes sense as a question.

Speaker B: I would always think about it in, in terms of learning. And uh, I thought about this when I uh left Coca Cola, joined uni and coffee. I thought about over the next two to five years and whatever is your time frame, what can, what am I going to learn in, in these different places? And I felt that um my list was just a lot longer um when I went into a small business where you are bigger fish in a smaller pond uh but you can actually extend your remit so you are then running business functions. You are changing the whole brand playbook. I did the whole rebrand launching um into retail, D2C running customer service, running product innovation. So just your breadth of experience was sold larger versus going deeper in the expertise which was exciting for me. But it's uh again um again a

Speaker A: choice um but what I love about the answer is the consistency across your answers today. Um which is a the element of choice, uh B the sort of stepping out for like the, what do I need right now? And then third, I think the uh, proposition to the community to ask the question of themselves, you know, what do, what can I, or what should I learn over the next few years? Maybe that does indeed dictate where you want to go, which I think is wonderful.

Speaker B: Yes. And on that one, actually the other way I find personally quite helpful to think about it is, um, how does my CV look like in a year or two's time? Because that's actually quite. What do I actually want to build in my CV and am I, where am I going to get, get that out? So are you looking to gain more management experience? Do you want to put like big growth numbers behind? Do you want to put lead versus contributed to something? Uh, what do you want to put in your cv? And then finding a role that's going to deliver on that.

Speaker A: Wonderful. I really, really appreciate the answer because I don't think it's immediately obvious unless you've had the experience. Uh, so thank you for sharing that. I think hopefully that gives uh, community a real strong sense of direction. Um, I want to make sure that we take questions from the community as well. Um, and I'm doing the verbal tick of again, not mentioning people's names, but, uh, I think this, this question sort of speaks to the heart of a lot of people's experience of how, uh, one looks at our careers. And I'll give one more stat, which is we recently put together our State of Marketers report which we released in the next couple of weeks. And I think it was something like 51% of the community, uh, self reported imposter syndrome. Um, so it was a huge portion of the community who feel the same way as this person questioning, uh, here. So the question is, uh, how do I get over my imposter syndrome and try my luck, uh, at applying for a manager's job? I've been at executive level for 12 years and I'm very experienced at operational campaign marketing. But I'm afraid to put myself forward in case I let people down once I'm in the role. And I think the emotions explained, uh, in that question are super relatable. Um, so to that person questioning, like, first and foremost, I hope you know you're not alone because I think a lot of people feel that way, um, but would love to put it to you Katie, and sort of see how you feel about it.

Speaker B: Yes. So I think that's, um, whether you call it imposter syndrome, lack of confidence, uh, all of that, I think I'D actually like to think it's higher than 51% at points experience that, um, couple of ways I've tried to get our weight is um, my, my husband is actually quite good at this. Sometimes if I'm feeling it and I'm thinking about whether I should put myself forward or not, he asks me, so name me. Who's the person in the organization otherwise would be better at this than you. So that is quite a good, good question. And then you can go through, well, actually is there somebody or would you actually be the, be the best fit? Um, the second one is thinking about what is the worst that's going to happen if you put yourself forward, if you start in a role, if you make a mistake, we all make mistakes. Um, you know, and one mistake, it's going to be a learning opportunity. Like you do it better the next time. If you don't do it, then what's going to happen? What's the alternative is to never, never take the next step. Um, and I think it's just thinking about also. And I, I am a bit of a thinking about when I think long term. This sounds very, this sounds very uh, big and morbid. But when you are at your retirement or your deathbed, like what do you regret? You regret things that you didn't do. Like you are not gonna think, oh my God, it was a huge mistake to put my hand up for this big job and then I messed up one year or campaign or uh, something in it. Like you are never gonna regret that. You are gonna regret the fact that you didn't go and do it. So it's trying to jump ahead and think, what would your future self tell you at this point in you know, 10 years time or 20 years time?

Speaker A: I love that so much and thank you, thank you so much. You know, I think it's a, uh, a question that speaks to so many people's experiences and so like um, I really appreciate that.

Speaker B: I think there is also a bit of um, realization that there are no sort of adults in the room and nobody knows everything. And some people are just, you know, presenting more confidently. Obviously there are some people who are brilliant. Uh, but um, there's some benefit to also having a bit of self doubt and that will strive you further. It will make you evaluate your choices and decisions more. So as long as it doesn't stop you from making a decision. Um, there can also be some value in it, I think.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Um, the only build I can offer as well is um, as someone who inhabits a similar headspace the questionnaire is sometimes just writing these things down. So I think there's one thing about thinking about it and, but I feel like I get stuck in my head sometimes if I think too much. Um, I'm actually just writing the things down. When you see it on the sheet of paper, like um, the questions that you've asked, you go, oh, okay, maybe it won't be quite as bad, uh, which is useful.

Speaker B: And there's also, um, last one I'm going to say on this one is, uh, almost not overthinking it. Yes, careers are important in these decisions, but there's also sometimes just go for it and you're gonna figure it out later on. So I'd say, um, public speaking is one that I've been working on over the past couple of years. Um, and um, I made the pledge in front of the business that I'm just gonna say yes to requests and opportunities and then worry about it later. So I'm literally doing that. When I get an interview request, uh, or podcast or something else, I was just like, okay, just say yes and then I'm going to worry about it once it's going to come around and then it's too late and I'm going to have to do it anyway. And it's always been a brilliant experience. Um, so there's a bit of not, uh, not overanalyzing and thinking and getting into our own heads and just going and seeing and trying it out.

Speaker A: I love that, um, you're speaking to the wrong person when you're saying that you're list those things. So, uh, just so you know, um, uh, the Q and A feature has somewhat exploded, uh, in the past five minutes with some really, really fantastic questions. If it's okay with you, I'd love to follow that as a track because you know, ultimately the community are the most important people here. Is that okay with you? Perfect. Um, sweet. So I'll take this next one. Again, I'm not mentioning names, but, um, the question is what advice would you give to a solo marketing manager of 15 years about to become established, uh, to become part of an established large marketing team of 15 people. So yes, that's solo marketing management moving into a team. What would you advise them?

Speaker B: Um, I would probably think about, um, first, um, what are the really like amazing experience and attitudes and ways of thinking that you can bring into that team that they don't have? So what is that special value? Because you want to be, I think often like people who have been working in scale ups, uh, Will just have that challenge of brand thinking, being able to pivot quickly thinking outside the box. Um, so I would say try to instead of just going in and conforming from m. The start, maybe have a think about what is that actually going to set you apart and the value you can bring to the team uh, in the first, even a couple of months so you, you can establish your brand almost as a person who's coming from outside in because that is probably the reason why they've hired you in the first place. So instead of conforming, thinking about what's the, what's the, what's the added value you can bring. Um, and the other part I um, would say would be just to try to understand the company culture uh, and ways of working as, as ah, quickly as possible. Um, so um, uh, I'm saying not confirming the thinking but obviously you need to understand how to work the ah, work the business. So uh, talking to, as you usually would, talking to as many people as possible possible and understanding what are the sort of unwritten rules and the ways of working that people who've been in the business and larger organizations for you know, years and years will just know, that's not written in any, any handbook.

Speaker A: Fabulous answer and thank you very much. Like again I think given the topic of our previous question which was uh, a little bit more fear orientated like, like I love how um, the consistency of your optimism sort of comes through in this sort of like not so much, you know, any fearful elements. You know, I'm bring, what am I bringing to this role which is just lovely. Uh, so thank you very very much. Um, the fabulous thing that happens in the Q and A feature when we take it from the community is we kind of go from one topic to another very quickly. Um, and so ah, a different topic to be thrown your way a little bit here. But um, do you have any practical tips for helping an application cut through uh, when changing industry or role? And there's actually another question uh, in the Q and A which asks about moving from a scale up to a big brand. So I'll roll that in here but uh, here it says I'm currently shifting horizontally from account management into strategy after 12 years but struggling to get past initial CV screening applications.

Speaker B: Um, probably this might broadly apply to both of those questions. Um, and I'll, I'll just give a practical example of when I was moving from big uh, business to smaller business, um, trying to I guess convince or tell, tell the people that I can actually work in a, in a smaller business. And Challenger brand even though I've got a big, big business background and it was um, about the things. Uh, so making sure that your cv, your application, your discussions focus on that bit that I was saying earlier which is what is it you can actually bring from the experience that's useful. So for example in my case it was I can bring understanding of what good look like, looks like, um, how to scale the organization, what the endpoint should look like, bring in processes, um, um, and so on. But then the other side would be trying to showcase your um, I guess attitudes and skills that will fit in that new role or business that might not be even work related. So for example, um, I mentioned this to Joe. It actually doesn't appear in anywhere in my CV or otherwise but I have actually set up a business as well. Uh, which I had done before I um, joined Union Coffee and it's still running. I'm not involved, my, my friend is still running it. Um, but I would talk about the side hustle where I've set up a business. Uh, I would talk about my family. My dad is an entrepreneur. Ah, the experience I've seen firsthand from what that is like. Um, and you can bring other examples from other parts of your life that show that you've got that um, culture and attitude because often that's actually the biggest barrier on people thinking about can you fit into a completely different style of organization or role. I think most of us believe that we can train people in the specialism, um, and people can learn if you, if you have a you know, smart, motivated, growth mindset person in front of you, they can learn. So the specific skills are often less important but it's about showcasing that you've got that um, growth mindset and attitude and aptitude and willingness to learn an interest in, in that type of work.

Speaker A: I don't want to put you on the spot here but I, I'd love to ask a follow up question to that because I've just heard it as a lived experience from a lot of folks in roles where CV screening takes place at a non human level and so like with AI, etc. Etc. And so the entrepreneur in me hires exactly as you've just described. So we've always hired on character and have that belief that, that you know, character and competence of course, but character first and then competence for that person in the situation where they feel like they're trying to please an AI, uh, that is scanning their CV for keywords, et cetera. I guess particularly leaning on your big brand experience. Where you know, you may have 10,000 applications for an internship role or something like that. Um, are there any reflections you can offer to people in that particular situation? I appreciate it's actually one of the unsolved things. So I'm asking more for experience than an answer. But I wonder if there's any thoughts that you could offer there.

Speaker B: I'd say I think the very entry level is hard because obviously you haven't been able to build your network. Um, I'd say network is so important and I'd say at the moment I would probably know somebody or somebody who knows somebody in pretty much most of the FMCG or scale up businesses. Um, so building that network and it shouldn't be always because you're gonna gain something or tap somebody up for a job later on, but it's building that genuine connections and people around you. So when the time comes you can actually um, um, reach out and you can also. I get lots of requests from people saying oh I've seen you're connected to so and so on LinkedIn. Can you help put my CV forward? I'm always happy to do that. So LinkedIn network um, is very important I'd say um, also just reaching out personally on LinkedIn to the hiring managers or the other people in the business. Nobody will ever think badly. Uh, if you are sending them a message they might not have time to reply to you, they might ignore you but they never think badly of somebody who is putting themselves forward um, in, in different channels to just make sure that the application gets noticed. Um, but no silver bullet unfortunately on, on this one.

Speaker A: But honestly that's, that's fabulous advice. I'm very grateful for you. I appreciate that was a bit of a uh, one of those questions that there is no answer. But I really appreciate the experience so thank you for sharing it. Um, we've got our next question coming which again is fabulous. I think speaks to some of the themes that we've covered off today already. But um, I know this person personally and I think they're amazing so I'd love to ask it. Um, so they ask. I'm mid career and worry I'm stuck at a level below what I'm capable of. I struggle to articulate this uh, in order to push for more senior roles. Do you have a good approach or any advice to get unstuck? So we've already spoken quite a lot about uh, cultural fit about evidencing character etc etc. Uh, in this person's experience. Do you have any advice at all

Speaker B: the first thing might be just in the wording of the question itself. I, I um, do think we often want the next title. So is it just because there's a more senior title or what is it that you will want in that role? Um, and I think once you, once you get over the, that's the next um, level, you know, organizations, it's going to be the next, next number of level or step four to five or whatever it's going to be. Or it's going to be the different senior in front of your title. Like once you look past that, uh, what is it that you think you are capable of that you are not able to do in your current role? Um, so trying to flip it into, okay, here are the capabilities I've got that I feel like I'm not utilizing at the moment. Can I go and talk about those with my manager? Um, instead of just the title, um, almost. Um, and I'm not saying actually that the person who asked is doing that, but it's more broadly so specifying what is it actually that also for you, instead of just uh, being more senior, what do you actually want from that next step? What do you want to be learning, what you want to be doing? Is it you really enjoy people management and you want to be managing bigger beams, teams or what is it that you want? I think they will often just be more helpful conversations um, for yourselves as well. And then you can discuss the gaps on if, if actually you know, your manager or other people think that there's a gap between what do you think you could deliver and do versus where you actually want to go.

Speaker A: Thank you so much. Um, thank you very much for accepting my diversion.

Speaker B: Actually titles are one of my favorite topics because they can be such a trap. And I think that's a bit of like I was saying, our careers are so long and actually titles are pretty meaningless often and they mean very different things in different businesses. And uh, it's um. So I think it's more about thinking about the content and the scope of the role rather than the title always.

Speaker A: It, it strikes me in listening to a lot of your answers today when you gave like the deathbed analogy and stuff like that, you know, uh, this sort of long term view of your career seems like a, a uh, really common theme that I think I'm going to take away from today. Um, but then also sort of asking those questions about less about the status I had, but the thing that I did and the happiness that it gave me in the life that it sort of Provided and the lives that I touched and stuff like that. Those feel like far more uh, personal questions that when you are able to sort of take that step back, you know, they become the obvious questions. Of course they do. But like when you're in it, they're so hard to sort of figure out sometimes.

Speaker B: Yes. And it's quite hard. And I did have a bit of a. Obviously when you're working at Coca Cola, everybody in the world will know when you say in a pub or in a party, like who do you work for? Every. Oh, wow, that's uh, you know, impressive. And then when you go to a small business, uh, like Union Coffee, what's that? It's, it's very different and you know, you stop getting all the invites to fancy parties and pretty awards and then it's uh. So you need to. Yeah, I think the thing uh, with titles and that obviously you need to, you need to figure out is that important for you longer term, um, or is it not? And actually if it is that that's fine as well. But uh, just making sure that you're not in a career trap or otherwise because those things have just become too important versus actually the output and the content of the job.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that and appreciate it um, on a personal level and just sort of um, for the whole community as well. So thank you for speaking to that. Um, let's take a uh, step back into scale, uh, ups and big businesses. I feel like we've covered a lot of really important uh, topics today and sort of taken a step back. Maybe if we take a step back into uh, today which was the big brand versus scale up, um, if someone has been offered a job at a scale up, what are the questions that you would be asking them to ask before they accept? And I appreciate that we've gone through some of those earlier on so like we don't need to repeat them necessarily. But specifically in that scale of context, what are you looking to understand before someone accepts that job?

Speaker B: Um, I would definitely. So the things we covered already. So checking into the investor profiles, financials, um, the category potential, um, I would also really try to understand the, your team that the founder dynamics and the leadership, uh, team dynamics because I think um, in scale of some small businesses that's much more like, it's so important, like much more than in maybe bigger businesses where you just work with wider teams in any case. But you need to have the chemistry and you want to also test a little bit um, what type of founder um, you'll be working with. So are they looking to be. I'm bringing in an expert and m. I want them to bring ideas and lead or are they looking for like they have quite a strong sense of what they want to do and it's more execution. Um, and you might then decide based on that whether it works for you or not. But just like testing those things a bit. Um, I often also ask um, things like what is the biggest mistake you've done in the past year of the, of the founder who's interviewing me just to check, uh, on the approach to you know, admitting mistakes, growth, mindset, all of that. So you might want to just think about what's important for you in that working relationship. Um, and uh, um, the importance of marketing and the function, the understanding of it. Do they see it as a growth driver? Um, what good looks like uh, for

Speaker A: them, uh, is I love that, I love that so much. I'm smiling quite a lot because I think I am that founder in lots of ways. And uh, yeah, uh, one um, doesn't want to think about the dynamics I put across. Um, I think it's. So you and I were chatting before we went live today about not overtly but the subtext was about ambition and um, how you know, sort of working in different scale ups. Uh, each organization will also have different scales of ambition and I think one of parts you answered there was around uncertainty, ambiguity, etc, etc. Um, it strikes me that I guess at least part of the question is around ambition because that will presumably have a large part to play in terms of working conditions and culture and everything that goes with it. If you're hoping to grow a billion percent the next year or whatever, that's presumably a very different conversation to a more gentle scale. Uh, as part of the question and

Speaker B: that almost goes back to the fact that there can be so many different types of stuff scale up. So if you are um, you know, completely founder owned or family owned with plan is just to continue a few percent year on year and that, that is the ambition of the business. It's very different to being you know, investor packed, uh, huge growth. So both are scale up space a very, very different experience I would say.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Um, uh, I'll take uh, two more questions if it's okay from the community and then I'll finish with a closing catch all question if that's all right. Kurti, but you've been so wonderful so thank you for ah, sharing as you have today. I think on an individual level you've helped so many people today. So I just wanted to Acknowledge that because it's really, really appreciated. Um, so we've got um, a question here around compensation. Um, and again it's an experienced one. I know that you haven't come here as a career advisor, but I think it's a good one. Um, so the question is, uh, how do you suggest to navigate the compensation topic? Uh, many application forms ask for expected compensation and it may undercut your application from the start. Uh, thank you very much in advance. Um, so compensation in general is a big one. Have you any advice here?

Speaker B: Um, so I guess I would think about, um, you can, I haven't actually done um, application process in a long while. I'm assuming that you can put a range in there. Um, obviously you can't put something that you're not happy with. Um, you can't go below what you'll be happy with. Um, I think often if you are a very strong applicant, you'll be then in a position to negotiate at that point. Um, so my advice would be to, having not thought about it too much before, before this spot moment is to probably be going in at the level that you'd be happy with and you'd know that you wouldn't be resentful if that's where it ended up with. Because there's no point in going through the process if that's going to be um, below expectation. But um, you could definitely always discuss um, whether it's through bonuses or whether it's through um, share schemes or you know, on like your experience, on whether you can then bump it up in the negotiations. Once you're at that point, then you've convinced them that you are the right person to hire.

Speaker A: Nice, I love that. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. It's very much outside your wheelhouse in terms of advice.

Speaker B: Uh, but obviously if you go after a long process, you go and say, well actually I'd like ah, 54, I'm not gonna join then that's not gonna be great.

Speaker A: I think the broad principle of just not undercutting yourself sounds like a really great place to start. You know. And uh, it's a version of the deathbed question that you posed earlier. You know, if you can sort of look back and sort of say, you know, I represented myself and sort of advocated for what I needed at that point in time, then it's no regrets philosophy. I guess to assess an extent, um, inevitably with a chat like this, then it's useful to end on a of catch all question. Um, and of course we have one. Um, so as a Closing question. If you could leave everyone here with one piece of career advice, what uh, would it be to leave?

Speaker B: Um, I'm going to do a bit of a capture uh, of um, I think definitely this. Um, not being too paralyzed or worried about trying out different things. Um, like it is a long career. Um, I recommend listening to a reading test quickly careers podcast and book as well. Uh, very much focused around how do you build breadth to your ah, experience rather than necessarily just going, going straight up. So I think collecting more experiences will just give you um, a better ah, uh, more enjoyable life and career and then you'll know what you like and what you don't like instead of always wondering about it. So I'd say sort of like go for it and don't think about it ah so much, um, to the point that's going to paralyze you from making decisions. Um, the second one would be the network bit and I'd almost call it like uh, a support, uh, support people and uh, you know, group around you. So building, building that um, both in good times and in bad times. So um, you know, collecting brilliant people around you over the years will just um, make any career choices. Actually I've had so many wonderful chats um, with the people I know from the um network and I've been thinking about career moves that have been just so, so helpful, um, just from the um, connections um, around me. Um, and yeah the last one would be just like we should also enjoy what we do. So I think giving, giving it enough thought on um, what's gonna make your next year or two always enjoyable. So I like to reflect every year on what's gonna make it a successful year for me. So what do I want to do, have done or what would um, my work look like for me to have had a good year and enjoy it and then making, making sure that you go into that direction. So um, not just thrifting, not necessarily always going for the title, but just thinking about how do you build an enjoyable career and keep growing.

Speaker A: I love that. Thank you so much Katie. It's really, really appreciated. Um, honestly a fabulous session today. So like thank you so much for taking the time and for sharing uh, everything you have today. Um, there's been so much from the community uh here today and I hope individually everyone feels like they've kind of been had a little pep talk, uh, as Claire has used uh, in uh, her comment at the end there. So thank you so much and thank you to the community for your fabulous questions. As ever, it's it's just a delight. So really, really appreciate you. Thank you. Uh, everyone in the chat, um, we've got folks saying, what a fab session. Uh, so many thanks coming your way. So, uh, it's really, really appreciated. Uh, we'll be back next week, everyone, um, for the final session of our collaboration season with Wackle. But in the meantime, uh, have a lovely, searingly hot Tuesday and stay calm. Thank you so much, Kirsten, thank you

Speaker B: so much for the community and all the questions and everybody dialing in on a hot day.

Speaker A: It's a whole bunch in a really good way. Right. We'll see you soon. Take care.

Speaker B: Uh,