Why DTC Brands Lose Customers They Think Are Already Theirs | Agnes Seville, Little Sleepies

Speaker A: You have the Internet, which could bring you anything from anywhere, you know, in two days with, with, uh, with shipping. So just understanding that customers today are your customers because they love the product, they love your brand. And I think as brands, we need to kind of treat every interaction with our customer as if it was our last. But also like, how can you create value for them?

Speaker B: Most DTC brands aren't losing customers because they stopped caring. They're losing them because they started taking them for granted. Agnes Seville has spent three years as head of paid media at Little Sleepies, a fast growing DTC children's pajama brand with a 500,000 member Facebook community. Her take on what separates brands that grow from brands that plateau has nothing to do with the latest ad platform feature. It comes down to one fundamental. Assuming a past purchase equals future loyalty. In this episode of the Human side of Martech, Agnes breaks down what real customer retention looks like. A why brand and performance marketing fail when siloed, how Meta's algorithm is reshaping creative strategy and what DTC brands should actually measure to know if they're winning.

Speaker A: I'm good. Hey, Sean, how are you doing?

Speaker C: I think you're refreshing person in the industry, I should say. Uh, meet a lot of people. Um, I'd love. Let's start with your background. Give us like, who are you? Where do you live? What's your family like? Give us a little personal background on who you are.

Speaker A: Man, I feel like that's a loaded question. Um, I live outside of Chicago. We live in Northwest Indiana and I have a wonderful family with five kids, a cat and a husband. Um, and, you know, they keep me busy. I feel like I love what I do, but I think my family is definitely a priority in my life and it always has been. And I've really tried to build my life around my family and creating flexibility so that I could attend, you know, the after school events and drive people to their concerts and meets, et cetera. So I think it's really important to make sure you prioritize what's important in your life and then build the rest around it to kind of fit like puzzle pieces.

Speaker C: I think that gives us a good perspective and I think a lot of people listening, you know, at least say they, they feel that way, um, or they want to be more like that. So that's awesome. So how did, how did you get into, um, like digital marketing and E commerce? Tell us a little bit about your career path.

Speaker A: Um, I feel like a lot of people are saying probably I never knew what Digital marketing is, it was never like a goal, it just kind of happened. I was in grad school, studying public health and needed a part time assignment. So I picked up a 30 day assignment at an agency in Chicago and just fell in love with it. I mean I could say that the rest is history because it kind of is. I finished grad school and back working agency side, um, and then just took off some years when I had children. And you know, obviously daycare is so expensive. We really just needed to make sure like what you made at work made sense for having kids in daycare. Um, and then when I went back, I went back fully remote. It was right before COVID So I found a great opportunity, continued kind of just evolving in my role and responsibilities. I started on the uh, shopping and feed side, moved into search, and then um, in 2022 I got an opportunity to go to the brand side. So up to that point all of my uh, kind of legacy experience has been on the agency side. And then when the opportunity came up to join the little sleepy team on the brand side, it was a really great opportunity. Came over, started managing paid search and then you know, my role has evolved over the last three and a half years to where now I manage all of paid media.

Speaker C: So, so what is that like going from, from the agency side where you know it's, it's a very different world to moving to the brand side where I imagine you had broader responsibilities. How did you find that transition?

Speaker A: You know, it was really exciting because I feel like there are definitely pluses and minuses to both. When you're on the agency side you have this great community of people to work with. Right. You have tons of accounts, people doing tests on different types of accounts, different clients. Like you're. Oh, I feel like there's a lot of knowledge share where if you move to the brand side you have, you kind of know what the brand is about, you learn about the business as a whole, you get kind of visibility into not just that little segment of the business that used to manage on the brand side, but like really deep down, you know business metrics, like what makes and breaks the business on a day to day basis, which you don't get on the agency side. So you lose kind of that community function of uh, being on the agency side. But I think it opens up a lot of opportunity to just create different responsibilities and just learn about the business a little bit more outside of just marketing.

Speaker C: Yeah, the role tends to be a little bit more broad. So how would you define your role? Today, would you say you're a marketer, or is it more than that?

Speaker A: You know, we all start as marketers. I think we'll continue being marketers. But I think that role really kind of evolves with, you know, your curiosity and what you want to get out of that role and also, like, where you work. So, uh, a marketer, you know, could mean so many different things. Like, I'm a digital marketer. I'd probably, um, don't necessarily have a lot of the marketing skills. Like, you know, I couldn't go somewhere else and, like, be a marketer. Marketer. Like, more traditional marketer. Like, my background is really kind of. My core background is in digital, and I think that's what I could bring to the table. But that has evolved. You know, every couple months, I feel like, you know, new responsibilities come up, you really step up to the table, you ask good questions, and then you kind of find yourself weaving through. You know, how can we grow not only this role, but the business, and how can we steer it in new directions? And, you know, I think it is marketing, but I think especially on the brand side, brand is a really, really important part of that role.

Speaker C: Tell us a little bit about the company you work for now and how, um, you know, how you fit into the organization.

Speaker A: So I work for a company called Little Sleepies, and we make wonderful comfortable, uh, pajamas. Everyone who's known me over the last few years has received a pair or multiple as part of, uh, any of their lifetime milestones. Baby shower, birthdays, you name it. Uh, some people barter in time and services. I barter in comfortable pajamas. But my role is really to make sure that we said I helped to create the strategy for paid media and how that fits into, you know, just supporting the growth kind of machine and growth engine of, uh, Little Sleepies on an annual basis.

Speaker C: So growth's an interesting word. I think that what growth means to a marketer has changed, um, or the market has made it change. So when you think about growth today, maybe compared to when you started, um, how has it evolved for you in this particular role?

Speaker A: You know, I think one thing we have to remember is that the market has, you know, matured. Like, there's a lot more saturation. People have all the products they could possibly ever need. Um, and for a company to really grow, like, you have to identify your North Star. You have to really lean into, you know, what's the most important thing for the business, and then you have to go after, you know, how do we acquire new customers efficiently? And then how do you nurture kind of all the returning customers that love your brand, love your product, and keep coming back? And how do we make sure that those customers stay with us, you know, for the direction of, um, whatever, you know, however long they decide to become a customer?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's an interesting space you're in because you're. You're selling to parents or people that are, you know, that are buying for kids, um, maybe their gifts. Um, how do you maintain that relationship with a consumer when the buying window is. It's narrow. Right. At least it appears to be somewhat narrow. How do you think about that?

Speaker A: I think customers specifically, um, you know, pajamas are kind of part of this. Like, you know, kids are so little for such a short time, and then they grow up. There's a very emotional connection. I think one of our key tenets is really building community. And our customers are a huge kind of influence in how we market the products, how we talk to our customers. Um, they provide us feedback, and we source that feedback from them. Like, what can we be doing better just about our business in general? What do they love? What do they recommend? Which prints they want to come back? Um, we have a VIP Facebook group with over 500 million members that is a big kind of place where people come and they share their special moments in Little Sleepy's pajamas. They smell kind of. They share their hardships, they share. They seek kind of. The community is like a support group in a way where, um, you know, all these moms and all these dads kind of come together, and they know that it's a safe place where they could kind of share things that are maybe hard in their life. But then they have this common thread of kind of being part of this community that Little Sleepy is really helps to forge and create a safe space for that sharing.

Speaker C: I just want to Clarify. You said 500 million?

Speaker A: Yes. No, it's 500,000. I totally lied. It's half a million. Half a million.

Speaker C: Say 500,000 to a million. I got you. I got you. Okay, that's more reasonable. Um, but that's really an interesting way to build community around your customers. Right? I think we use, especially in the DTC space, I think we use the word community very loosely. Um, our customers or our community. But how do you really foster that community? And it sounds like you just do a great job of that with the Facebook group and getting people to connect with each other. I think that's a really good definition of it. So what do you think most brands misunderstand about their customers that maybe you think about that you think you get right.

Speaker A: I think, uh, most brands assume that their customers will be loyal to their brand and maybe, you know, maybe there was more loyalty kind of few years back. Maybe that's changing. I think there are customers today have more options than ever in terms of products, in terms of services, in terms of like everything available to them. You have the Internet, which could bring you anything from anywhere, you know, in two days with, with, uh, with shipping. Um, so just understanding that customers today are your customers because they love the product, they love your brand. And I think as brands we need to kind of treat every interaction with our customer as if it was our last. So, you know, don't assume they're going to come back. Don't, you know, retarget them because you think they're going to come back. I think just kind of understand that if you have that interaction with the customer, treat it as it was your new customer. And how would that differ, you know, in process and services and uh, kind of what your team does or thinks about kind of even marketing, uh, you know, what would happen if those customers, you know, if you knew that they would not come back? Would you treat them any differently through every single interaction, you know, in the buying cycle even?

Speaker C: I think that's, I want to call that, that's a really important point. Like if you thought if you're a brand and you think that I'm not going to come back, you probably would treat me different as opposed to, oh, he's coming back. You take me for granted, right? I think that's probably normal in a lot of different types of relationships. And I, and I find that so true. Um, when I think about the brand, I mean I love some direct to consumer brands. I use Huel for my protein powder, right. And I use Brickell for my, my face treatment and stuff like that. Like I have different brands that I really like, but there are some where, you know, when I went there the first time, maybe I bought, maybe I didn't. I gave them my phone number because they needed a pop up and I had to get rid of the pop up. So they got my phone number, right? And maybe I bought something and now I just get like, I can think of one. I don't want to call them out because I do love my shoes actually. I'm going to call them out. It's Kuru. I love my Kurus. I have multiple pairs of them. They're the most comfortable shoes I've ever owned. But they text message Me every day. How many pairs of Kurus does one person need? These are 100 plus dollar shoes. So I think that needs to get. I think there's a fear. I think they do this out of fear that they're going to lose my attention. And so I think that they need to think about other ways that are relevant to the brand. Not saying go out and build a Facebook community like you did, because that's relevant, but find a way to build that community, that relationship with the consumer, beyond just trying to stay top of mind with text messages and emails because I'm getting annoyed. Um, or I'm just going to stop, you know, I'm gonna stop all of them and I'll, I know what brands I like. I'll go get them when I'm ready. Um, any thoughts around that? There was really a question, but I just want to get your thoughts around that balance.

Speaker A: I mean, we've all had kind of those experiences where, you know, for one, it's, you know, I go and buy something and maybe it's like a horrible experience. Like, or you go to the web page and like, you don't know, you know, like there's 15 things to click on or you get to check out and there's three pop ups. Oh, do you want this or this or this? But then to like, your point, you know, you buy a purchase and then, you know, it's like, for kids, like, it's probably a little bit different because, like, they grow out of stuff faster. But like, as an adult, you know, how many T shirts do you need? How many shoes do you need? It's like, I think there has to be a little bit more thought put behind. You know, once you have that customer, like, how do you nurture their relationships? Like, you know, how do you make sure you don't annoy them? How do you make sure, like, you set clear expectations? How do you insert yourself as a brand into their life without being annoying? Right? You know, like you don't want to send, um, them 15 text messages provide an easy way to opt out if, you know, that's something that's kind of part of your strategy. But also like, you know, how can you create value for them? Right? Like we're all selling something. Like, we know that the bottom line is always to have the customer purchase from us. But outside of that single purchase, you know, event, how can I as a brand provide value to my customer to create like this positive feeling of, uh, you know, like this brand actually cares about what I do? Um, they're not just trying to get me to buy something else, but it's like, you know, send me an email, send me a blog, send me something interesting, like, tie into the bigger, like, world experience. And like, you know, how can you insert yourself into the relevant parts of my life without just being about that purchase event?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's the personalization piece too. Right. And I think with loyalty, I think it's a word we throw around way too easily. Just because I bought something from you and you automatically enrolled me into your loyalty program doesn't mean I'm a loyal customer. Right. So you have to earn that trust, earn that loyalty. And I think to your point, like, rather than send me text messages every day about how great your shoes are, send me messages once a week that say that maybe you're a motivator. If I bought running shoes. Give me some motivation. Like, it's beautiful weather in Portland today. I live outside of Portland and maybe go for a run, like, something like that. And I know who it came from, I know what they're doing, but at least it's a little bit more personal to me because it like that actually.

Speaker A: What a motivational sms.

Speaker C: I mean, for the shoes. I mean, it's not going to work for everything, but I think brands need to find that in them. Um, all right.

Speaker A: Differentiator as well. Right. Like, if you're kind of doing something that's a little bit outside of the norm, like, that's how customers will remember you. That's what's going to have them, you know, think about you next time they're trying to make that purchase. It's not just about that singular experience. It's really about creating that connection between the product and the brand, and then the end user, the customer.

Speaker C: Well, it's that emotional connection. Right. And you've got to create that emotional connection, um, I think as a brand, between the user and what works for one brand.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker C: It's all about that. Um, okay, let's pivot a little bit and talk a little bit more about growth versus performance marketing. Performance marketing tends to dominate the conversations because everybody wants to get their roi. Um, and it sounds like you're at a company where performance is important because you do have goals you need to hit, you need to generate revenue, but brand is also important. So where do you think performance falls short for most brands today?

Speaker A: I think a lot of times having the connection with brand and performance marketing, ideally, you want the two teams to be in sync. You want to be on the same page in terms of what the strategy is for the business, not just for brand versus paid marketing or performance marketing. M I think you have to understand that brand needs to control a little bit more of the brand identity and set the guardrails for kind of how the business operates. But then performance marketing needs to be kind of set loose within that framework and say, okay, you guys do what you know works best to acquire those new customers efficiently, to nurture those kind of, uh, customer relationships with our existing customers. And I think as long as, you know, we're looking at kind of the bottom line at the business level, um, we know that performance marketing is really kind of lower funnel. Right. Brand helps create kind of those connections, experiences, more awareness that maybe aren't always trackable. They may fall into performance marketing, but they may not. But I think as long as the teams work together and they understand who's carrying the weight at which point of the customer funnel and the customer journey, I think the numbers will kind of tell the story and you could hit your ROI and you could still have that good customer experience and you could build brand awareness. But I think when the two teams work in a silo, then each one of them kind of misses like a part of that connection and then the results just won't be nearly as good.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, it feels like it creates a competition. Right. If you have two teams, like, no, these sales happen because of my branding. No, these sales happen because of my performance marketing. And it's really both. Right. If you're doing it right. Right. The performance is. The brand is driving people to be aware of the brand so that the performance marketing convert them at the right moment. Um, and I think everyone needs to take, take credit for it. In your role, have you. Yeah, I would say in this role or really any role you've been in, have you seen situations where performance looked good? However you judge performance, um, but the health of the business wasn't as strong as the performance indicated.

Speaker A: You know, we definitely have kind of um, metrics that, you know, like roas and kind uh, of revenue and like, you know, depends on which attribution models you look like. There's definitely different ways to look at data. I think what's really key is that you have to understand your core business profitability, like whether it's at the product level, whether it's at the uh, platform level, like whatever that level you define as a company, you need to understand that your efficiency ratio needs to stay above this level, otherwise the company is going to tank. So regardless of all the pretty, ah, you know, Revenue or roas, numbers you see across platforms, across, you know, parts of the business, unless they're meeting your efficiency metrics kind of at the business level, something needs to change, otherwise your business will just not kind of sustain growth or, you know, be in existence in two years. So, um, just know your numbers, make sure that you kind of have, like, the goals are set within your efficiency target as a business and then really everything else just needs to fall into place. Because I think some, you know, some programs and tactics are a lot more efficient than others. But that gives you like, room for that, you know, upper funnel, mid funnel kind of awareness, you know, bucket of the budget that you're spending to be less inefficient, be more effective in driving, you know, invisible clicks and views. And, you know, especially if you're doing video right, like with AI too, like some of the, you know, searches on Google, like people will kind of search for something, look at the results on the SERP and never click anything but get the information they need. So how do you account for that kind of in the bigger, bigger world of marketing and spend and, you know, profitability, you have to look at it at the bigger level because when you have siloed information, the dots never connect and you never get the whole picture.

Speaker C: So how do you look at it? How do you, how do you make sure that you understand, uh, how all the media is working? Right, Whether it's clickable or not, um, more holistically to understand, like different channels?

Speaker A: Yeah, so we definitely have, um, so for our attribution we use North Beam. We kind of use that as like our NTA tool. We use that for kind of like day to day management. We use platforms for kind of making sure we see all the signals relevant to video ads and search ads and kind of everything else. There are different uses for each tool and I think whatever tool works for your business is the right one. Um, you know, there's MMA and there's incrementality tools and there's MTA tools and there's platforms and you know, people build their own kind of dashboards in house. I think again, it's like if you know what your numbers need to be like, you could look at the data however way, you know, whichever way you want. You could look at it in five different ways. But I think, um, know what you need to find at each level of that kind of data, uh, siphoning and understand what goals you need to hit at the platform level, at the ad level, at the business level to make sure that at the end of the day, when you look at the agreed metrics, everybody's speaking the same language. And when somebody's saying something, you know, on a day to day basis, you have confidence that at the end of the month that will roll up to like a positive ROI at the business level.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, I'll throw you a little bit of a curveball here. When I asked that question to others, I've never once gotten anyone to say, we look at the money in the bank, how many sales did we generate? How much revenue do we have? And work their way back. You're looking at all these other metrics and channels and conversions instead of just saying, are we generating more revenue? How much money did we make this week? How much money did we spend? Do you think that's too simplistic?

Speaker A: I, uh, think it depends on the business. So in our case, we have a lot of revenue comes from retention and returning customers. So sometimes that could cloud. You know, there are issues with the new customer acquisition engine. Right. So we definitely have like, in our business we have a big focus on new customer acquisition costs. So that's, to us, I think is more important because we want to make sure that we continue bringing customers into the brand. You know, especially as you mentioned earlier, like our products are, we're, we're very heavily focused, uh, on expecting moms, new moms and moms of like babies. Right. So we know babies will grow. We need to continue to find new moms and kind of getting them into our funnel. For us, you know, new customer acquisition costs are, ah, really kind of what will make or break the bank at the end of the day. So it's like if we're, you know, if it cost us three, you know, three times as much to acquire a new customer that the, you know, AOV of their, you know, the initial three months or whatever the equation will be, then, you know, we're spending more money than we're bringing in. It's inefficient. But if we know that, you know, our retention volume brings in, you know, a big portion of that kind of revenue bucket, then we know that we have a little bit more leeway in kind of acquiring that customer. Because we know that over time, you know, they might be net negative at the beginning, but then over time, you know, that lifetime value will actually overcompensate. So I think, you know, for each business, like subscription businesses will work very differently. Um, you know, kind of businesses that tend to be kind of like ones and done have to do a different math in our business, you know, like, it changes every, let's say every six months. Right. Because like kids grow, business changes, product offerings change as well. So really trying to figure out, you know, what makes sense for your business whenever you make the decision. Um, you know, I think revenue is a little bit of a vanity metric. It works when all the other pieces are in place, but I don't think revenue should be your. So revenue from marketing versus revenue in the bank is also a very different number. Right. So I think, um, you know, when marketer thinks of revenue, they think of revenue kind of coming from like their channels. When you think of, you know, the accounting revenue in the bank, that has to include all of your other business costs, which is a very different math. So that's why knowing that kind of bottom number at the business level will trickle down to kind of what you need from marketing, um, to deliver, from your organic channels to deliver, um, and those revenue numbers will be very, very different from each other. It'll never be, you know, you're never at a net zero cost, I think as a business. Uh, so just making sure you're account for that and whatever is left over from marketing or whatever is kind of allocated to marketing, um, could make or break your business.

Speaker C: Yeah. So it's attributed to cost. Okay, I get it. Fair enough. Good answer. Um, I would never ask you to choose your favorite child, but I will ask you, um, if you had to choose between performance or brand, where would you prioritize your funds?

Speaker A: Performance.

Speaker C: But wouldn't performance suffer at some point if you didn't have brand driving awareness?

Speaker A: But I think part of performance could be like performance. Like we always automatically assume it's kind of the bottom of the funnel. But I think, you know, with all of the changes the platforms have made recently, like some of their mid funnel, upper funnel tactics are actually driving good performance. So I think if you just had performance you could make, you could bring kind of brand into the fold, like as a, uh, you know, some sort of view through kind of metric. And you know, creative is such a big focus of everything, which is, I think creative is very, very heavily influenced by brand. Right. Like it's still, you know, paid creative and organic. Creative will be very different. But knowing that kind of brand will influence creative. At the end of the day, I think, uh, performance marketing will be the one I'll stick by.

Speaker C: All right. I wanted to go into that a little bit further on the creative side. And this isn't something that we planned for, but I read something on LinkedIn this morning. Uh, I think is it Meta's Andromeda? Um, and the way that it's choosing what creative to display and it's actually looking at the creative and saying if the. I think it's the. If the call to action is too similar to a previous one, it's not going to show it or it's not going to give it the weight that you think it's going to give. Or in the first two seconds of the video, if it doesn't capture the AI's attention, then it's not going to give it the weight that it deserves. So you've got to be constantly refreshing your creative. But more than that, right, you have to be changing your actions. Right. Every component needs to be fresh. This idea that you can run a B testing doesn't really work anymore if you under the way.

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker C: So are you. I, uh, imagine you use, I mean, you may have a Facebook group, but I imagine you're using Meta for advertising. Are you feeling any pain from this kind of technology and how are you adapting to it?

Speaker A: For sure. I mean, you know, diversification. I feel like in the marketing we've talked about, especially on Meta, you know, we need to diversify ads. We need to diversify ads. Historically it's been, you know, we have the same ad but maybe have out of, uh, asset copy versus on asset copy. Or you change the colors or you change the call to action. To your point now it's like, you know, you need a gif and you need aesthetic and you need a video. And if you have multiple, like, influencers working for you, you have to make sure that, you know, the story they're telling is different, the hooks are different. Because if you have the same script, you know, let's say from five different influencers, like Meta might say, you know what, it's the same message, it's the same ad. We're just not going to put money behind it. So the ecosystem has definitely evolved. It's become a lot more needy. Uh, like we definitely kind of need to feed the beast a little bit more and you have to, you know, come up with ideas and better hooks and, um, just like really figure out what's working for your account and each kind of stage of the funnel. And, you know, what is Meta considering? Kind of like, what is that overlap on the back end, you know, how figure out how fast your ads are fatiguing and then create a structure internally to make sure you have enough creative content and enough volume to be able to refresh it, to make sure you kind of maintain the performance level that you're expecting from the platform.

Speaker C: Yeah, I wonder, uh, and I don't buy Meta ads, so maybe you have some insights here. But I wonder, does Meta do this because they think they know better than the brands or are they doing this for self serving purposes? Um, which obviously is revenue. Um, it's an interesting way to think about it. Like it's my brand, I want to advertise the way I want to advertise. You're telling me I can't because you won't put the ad up. Like it's a, it's an interesting industry conundrum.

Speaker A: It is. And I think, you know, there's a lot of like behavior signals kind of on the back end that we don't necessarily see and don't recognize. So I think for us, we try to reverse engineer what the algorithm is optimizing for. Right. So I, uh, mean it would be great if they just came out and said, hey, this is what diversification literally means versus saying okay, you just have to have, everything has to be different from one to the next. Which, I mean it's unrealistic. Right. Especially when you're trying to run a business. It's like, yes, you could have diversification and you could have different ad iterations, but at some point you have to kind of figure out how to scale that. And I think that's really kind of the next challenge is creating systems in place on the brand side, um, to make sure that you could scale while maintaining kind of that diversification, um, feel. So that algorithm could continue showing different ads for you.

Speaker C: Um, do you have any before we move on to sort of Martech and the tools, um, when you think about the E commerce experience that we talked a little bit about this and community and loyalty, but do you have a vision or an opinion on what a great E commerce experience looks like today?

Speaker A: I think removing friction from just the process is really a very important factor. Living, uh, in a time where I could pick up my phone, click something on Amazon and have it delivered tomorrow, you know, if I'm a D2C brand and this is who I'm competing against, like, how can I compete with that? How can I compete with like that instant gratification of saying, oh, I want something, let me go get it right now to you know, going to like, let's say Google searching for the thing, getting to the website, going around all the things I have to click through to get to checkout and answering like five more questions at checkout and setting up an account than waiting five days for the thing to get to me. So I think you know, as a brand, removing friction from the checkout process from, you know, how can customers find you? Can they find you? Like is it, is it easy for them? I think it's all about like how can we make the process as frictionless as possible kind of while creating that connection. Like it's a really big ask. Um, but I think yes, you know, let's make sure that we're discoverable if somebody's looking for us, let's make sure that once they get to our website we provide a friendly kind of experience to get to the checkout. And then once they actually click on the checkout, what happens between the checkout and when they get their product? Is there an opportunity to create some sort of connection or point of interaction to keep them excited about something they ordered maybe a week ago?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of things there, right? I totally agree. Friction deters a lot of people and I think we can all relate to that. Have you found that in your own business that there's um, little things that you can do to sort of make that process easier for the consumer?

Speaker A: I think we really kind of um, like to delight and surprise our customers. So that's you know, like doing little easter eggs and like you know, communication or blogs or interactions within our VIP group specifically, um, kind of just really finding those small ways that I feel like make a big difference on a ah, like personal level. So yes, we're doing it as a brand and we're doing it kind of in uh, a more impactful way than like one on one a lot of times. But I think really finding those kind of moments of curious exploration of finding kind of just the light in the everyday because we're all, you know, we're all doing the same thing. But how can we differentiate ourselves and create that extra spark in our customers lives is really important.

Speaker C: Okay, so I want to pivot a little bit topic wise to evaluating tools, um, because I know uh, it's an important part of everyone's role whether you're in marketing or E commerce. There's um, a lot of marketing technology out there and evaluating them has just gotten harder which is why we've created the tools that we've created over at blurbs. So when you look at tools or when you're evaluating partners, what is it that you're looking for? I mean, I know that's a hard question to answer without giving you a specific category, but are there General things that you're looking for from, from a, from a platform, from a tool.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I think the one thing that matters is that is the soul is the tool that I'm, um, looking for, like, is it going, uh, to solve the problem I have, like, right at the end of the day, like if I'm looking for a tool, I want it to solve a specific problem. Like, I don't need just another, you know, interface that I get to log into every morning. That doesn't do anything for me. It's always like a cost benefit analysis. It's like if I get this tool that cost me x X per month or anyway, whatever, what is the cost of the onboarding? Like, you know, do I have to spend a month figuring out how to use it? How does this kind of fit into my business? How does this fit into my daily life? Like, that's a very kind of big cost. Like, you know, and then you go, say you go, okay, is this actually better than what I'm using today? Like, is it worth that extra effort and those extra dollars than what I'm doing today? If the answer is no, then it's probably a really easy no. So I think just really, you know, whatever the tool may be, and this is probably both for personal and professional life. Like, if it doesn't work for you, like, don't get it, um, if it works for you, great. I think it's worth that extra effort to really solve a problem. Free up some time in your day. But like, if, you know, somebody just says, hey, I have this tool and you're like, and so what? I'm happy for you. I'm m glad you have this tool. Like, I think, you know, it needs to create value for me, otherwise it's not going to be worth kind of the effort.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think what I heard there, I think that's really important for vendors to think about. It's like, what's it, the cost isn't just the money, it's the human capital that goes into implementing it. Right. Uh, beyond the evaluation and the management of it, just the implementation of it is a real consideration. And is the benefit going to justify that human capital, um, that you have to put into it? Because the monetary costs are probably similar. I mean, product to product is probably not that much different.

Speaker A: On the B2C brand, we're usually such a lean team. We have so many kind of responsibilities with such limited time. Like, we want things that help us do more kind of with the same amount of time. But if that cost equation Kind of shifts to where, you know, it's like I'm going to spend more time figuring out how to use it than actually just like seamlessly incorporate into my daily life. It's not going to be worth it. It's not going to be worth it today. You know, it might be worth it in the air when maybe I need more things. But, um, yeah, just like really, you know, sell us the thing that you want us to fix. And I think, you know, there's always going to be people who will not like the tool and there's always going, you know, early adapters who will jump on every tool and test it and then provide feedback, which is a really great thing for people like us who maybe take a little bit longer because then we have the input and we could talk to our colleagues and we could, uh, you know, check out the blurbs and kind of figure out what are people saying, what are the benefits, what are the costs? And then figure out if this is something that works for me before we have like that kind of long, you know, onboarding period. Will it work with our tax stack? Will it, you know, take me a long time to learn? So, yeah, I, I think just come with solutions and I think that's going to be a much easier way to kind of bridge that, uh, initial conversation to where, you know, you could have a discussion.

Speaker C: Solution Selling, I think, is a, it's a lost heart. Right. Being a consultative salesperson, um, I think is, is difficult today for I think one reason it's difficult for people that are good at it is just getting the attention of someone to ask questions, get the answers. But I do think there's a lot of younger sellers in our space that have just grown up differently in the industry. Right. They're all about the tools and the technology. And it's, look at my shiny object. It's really cool, isn't it? You should have it. Let me tell you all about it instead of asking you what is slowing you down? What is the pain point you're having? What is your friction?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Um, I think those are really good advice for vendors that are selling into you. So how much of your decision making when you're, when you're evaluating tools is intuition based versus, you know, just your gut versus data?

Speaker A: Uh, that's a good one. I think intuition is really important because it could steer you in the right direction. But I think you shouldn't make money decisions specifically without data backing it up. You know, we've all had great decisions or great ideas that maybe didn't pan out, um, you know, if you have a hunch about something working really well or, you know, something, especially if you're on a pivot, you know, a set of budget towards that thing, set aside small budget, set a timeline, create a hypothesis and test it, see what the results tell you. Maybe they'll support your, um, your hunch, maybe they won't. But then at least, you know, a couple of weeks later, you'll have an idea and you'll have something to go off, you know, to figure out, you know, do I need another test? Do I need more time? Do I need more budget? And I think, you know, kind of jumping in blindly is dangerous because, yes, you know, there's a chance that it would work out, but also there's a chance that maybe you didn't think about something before, you know, putting that money into that thing. And then, uh, you know, there's a blindside that maybe causes the whole thing to fail. So always be cautious when you have money at stake, always double down on data, uh, figure out what's working, what's not working. And then I think just having that confidence that data provides, you know, it's never risk free. Like, there's always things that could change and that could happen. But at least when you lower that risk, I think it makes it a lot more comfortable for leadership to approve whatever crazy plan you have on a hunch, uh, if you could support it with data, like, I think a lot more doors are open for you and for your experimentation. And they also set a good example for, you know, the business as a whole. It's like we test, we iterate. If it's work, we could kind of scale it. But I think unless you make sure and you prove it out that it, that it works, you should not just kind of blindly trust your hunches.

Speaker C: I mean, it's a perfect example as why folks like you don't have to worry about your jobs against AI, at least not yet. But AI doesn't have intuition. AI doesn't have that gut feeling they're going to look at the data, right, and say, this is a decision when you know from your experience in the business, um, or just in your, you know, as a marketer that it's not the right way to go because you understand humans. I think it's really important to leverage both and look at things through that lens. What do you think brands, uh, sorry, what do you think vendors consistently misunderstand about brands like yours?

Speaker A: Again, I think just make sure your solution focused on the brand figure out what the brand needs and figure out how you could fit into their tech stack. Understand that we have limited budgets, so if you come to talk to us in January, we probably won't be making decisions until next year's budget, which roll out later this year. Um, and you know, again, like, I think we're very hesitant about chasing those shiny objects because everybody has one and everybody wants to be successful. But as a brand, you have a limited, you know, tech budget and then you have to make decisions. Like, if we onboard a new vendor, does that mean that we have to, you know, like, what are we getting for it and do we need to upgrade somebody else we're currently working with? So understand that we don't have limited time for kind of all introductory calls. We will very highly come from referrals and kind of, I think, speak to those vendors first. Like, if somebody I know referred you and said, hey, we're having this really awesome experience, like, you're going to make the shortcut really quickly and things will move a lot faster, versus if it's just kind of like a cold email and saying, hey, we have this tool, you should look at us. Um, so definitely, you know, the, the community, I think within the brands, within marketing space, within kind of the growth community is really, really tied. Like, we're all doing our own thing in our own little corner of the world. But I think we have enough connections where if we need to make a decision, we'll reach out and could get probably pretty good feedback really quickly and then we'll move on that decision. Um, before kind of like, um, you know, considering cold emails, if that makes sense.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, totally. So I often talk to people that work at brands, um, that work previously worked at another brand, you know, 10 years ago. And we talk about how different it is growing a brand today versus ten years ago. Um, so if you had to give it. The environment we're in, if you had to give a brand or somebody that works at a brand some advice, Some. One piece of advice. If you're trying to grow a brand today, what would that be?

Speaker A: Um, I would say don't spend the money unless you know what the bottom line is. Just because I think the brands that spend the most money don't necessarily get the best results. So really understand your kind of profitability metrics as a brand before you kind of dedicate your marketing budget or whatever other kind of dollars you have to spend to the business. Like, understand your metrics very, very clearly and then based on that, make the decision to kind of Allocate set number of budget, be smart with how you market, be smart with who you market to. Um, and I think, you know, efficiency will trump kind of profitability. Um, and they really go kind of hand in hand. When you're thinking about, you know, what do I, what do I do, how do I grow? You know, maybe you've hit a plateau and you have to figure out kind of what next. You know, figure out what is. Like, if you have an extra, you know, million dollars to spend or, you know, $50,000 to spend, like, what, where is your next dollar coming from? Like, what does that mean to the business as a whole in terms of return? Like, at which point are you bleeding and not really generating growth and revenue? Um, and which point, you know, like how kind of like what is that, that space of comfort that you can allocate? You know, like we always have, you know, times that are doing a little bit better, times that are doing not so great. Uh, then like, there's so many factors that are outside of our control right now that are contributing to kind of what the businesses are doing, but how we react to that kind of those environmental factors, knowing what our kind of break even point is or like what our profitability point is, I think that will make a huge difference. And you know, sometimes you could have a couple lean months and still make your annual numbers, but, you know, if that efficiency kind of shifts, you're going to be struggling and you might not be able to kind of make up the difference if it does not change.

Speaker C: Do you have any advice for the vendors that are trying to sell to those brands?

Speaker A: Again, figure out on the problem, like, what is the thing that you can help them with, um, that maybe they're not even seeing. It's kind of like, you know, finding new, you're finding a new customer. Like, figure out what the problems are and then figure out how to reach them. Reach out to your contacts. All the vendors have connections as well. Figure out who in the, your customer base maybe knows other people who might benefit from the solution. Um, there's so many ways to kind of reach out and find those customers who are willing to pay for your solution and could really benefit from it. And it's kind of like a rolling ball. Once you get more customers, then they have more referrals, you get more business. Yeah. Kind of always focus on how you could make people's lives better. And that goes for rents, that goes for vendors. Like, how can you create value in the world? Is probably my top advice. It's like, find A way to create value, deliver it to others, and then you'll never look for work, ever, because they'll just find you and come to you.

Speaker C: It's good advice. Um, okay. And the last person we're going to give advice to is your earlier self. So, thinking back to those early agency days, if you could go back in time and share some piece of knowledge with, uh, your younger self, um, based on what you know today, what would that be?

Speaker A: I would say, you know, be brave and do it scared. Like, that's. Nothing happens without a decision to change. You always have to take that first step. But I think if you don't, you'll regret it, right? Like, and if you do, you know, you won't see results tomorrow. Growth is painful, it's stressful, it's exhausting at times, but without kind of those growing pains, you'll never get to the next level, you know, in your personal life, in your career, in your work life. Like, just, you know, a lot of sweat equity has to be put up. Uh, I feel like there's so many posts about, you know, get your side gig and never work again in your life. You know, I really believe in sweat equity. Putting in the work and putting in the hours. Um, and, you know, you'll be surprised. Like, five years seems like so far away today, but in five years, it's going to have flown by and you could look back and you're like, wow, I actually accomplished so many things that I maybe never thought were possible.

Speaker C: Good advice. It sounds like maybe you got back in time and talk to yourself. Um, I think we'll wrap it there. I think that was a great conversation. Um, really enjoyed having you on the show. This was refreshing. Um, and we look forward to having you back someday in the future.

Speaker A: Thank you so much, Sean. Uh, have a good day.

Speaker C: You too. Take care, Agnes.