Workplace Conflict Starts Inside the Leader | Ep. 106

Welcome to the Let's Pick up Model Podcast. We're high achievers stuff performing and stuff transforming. I'm coaching the book, summer from the core energy leadership coach, member of the inner women, and creator of the swamp framework. And when I'm here, return your mindset.

Challenge your limit and turn coaching into purpose. Subscribe in the channel and join me on YouTube at Swann Coaching. So let's get your reps in. Welcome to another episode of the Let's Think About It podcast.

I'm your host, Coach Mo, and I'm here with another amazing guest, and his name is Irvin Nugent. Irvin, my man, what's good? Oh, thanks, Mo. Thanks for the invitation.

I'm excited over our conversation today. Everything is great. I had a great weekend. We're just talking about that and looking forward to diving in to explore some great topics.

Yeah. Before we do that, what part of the country are you checking in from? I'm checking in from the Maryland side of D.C.

I live in Frederick, Maryland, about an hour. Well, depending on the traffic, theoretically an hour from DC. So I do. Although I'm originally from Ireland, and that may come out in a few words I say as we continue the conversation.

That sounds great, man. So tell my audience who you are, what you do, and the type of value that you bring. Yeah. So I'm again, my name is Urban Nugent, and I work in the arena of conflict and workplace conflict and all things workplace conflict.

So on a daily basis, I find myself either speaking or in coaching or in training. And really, my take and the company I work with's take on conflict is a little bit different. It's not so much that conflict has to be always resolved, but rather the most important thing, and what we get wrong so often, is that the most need to have is the capacity to sit in the friction and the tension that conflict causes. And rather than withdraw or maybe go in too forcefully, to go in there appropriately so they can manage that tension, the difficult conversations.

And really that is a key element to the success of any team and the success of any organization. Yeah, man. You're taking me in really quick, and I appreciate that. You got into strategic capacity, and that's a piece of what we talk about here.

But before we take a dive into that, how did you navigate self into getting into this line of work? It's a great question. I like to say that the conflict found me rather than me finding conflicts. I grew up, as I say, from Ireland.

I grew actually in Northern Ireland. I grew up at a time, if some of your listeners are a little older, we had this thing of the troubles in Northern Ireland. This was a civil conflict between two sides, which was dragged on for 50 years when violence was really a part of my daily life. I grew up with violence around me.

I grew up with conflict around me. And that instilled in me a few things. One, it instilled in me, first of all, a fear of conflict, that conflict was dangerous, that conflict could get you killed. And then, secondly, in my heart, I think it placed a desire in some way to create a world where we could better navigate our difference.

That does difference always have to be expressed in violence? Can we find a way? If we don't agree, that's fine, but just have a way to civilly converse about that. And so I think my whole career has been around that resolving that tension that came from childhood.

And I was CEO of a few large nonprofits. And one of the things that I found was that I was terrible at conflict. I avoided it like the plague. And I think the realization was the more I did that, the less effective I was as a leader.

And it became this clarity and call for me that I needed to fix that. And in that fixing, it's kind of become now the center of the career and what I do. Okay. So I think when you talk about conflict, and you mentioned violence as well, and how the conflict can be resolved through violence.

And that's typically the perception of how people see conflict, right? I want to take a layer deeper. I want to talk about the conflict that we experience within self and how we view self in internal conflict before the external conflict occurs. Take me through your process and how you learn that for self before you start teaching it to others.

Oh, I love this. This is so juicy because so often we externalize conflict, and conflict is being two people are in a team. And it is. However, we also reflect that there's an inner dialogue that is constantly happening even before it reaches the surface, or that inner can prevent it from reaching the surface.

And I think what may help here is the way I view conflict. For me, conflict may result in anger, violence, etc., but that's the extreme. What really conflict is about, conflict begins in the friction of perspectives, the friction of values, the friction that comes.

When two human beings come together, there is difference, which is beautiful, and there is tension. And how we manage that's most important. And that tension is in the inside as well. We have friction.

So, in other words, when something's happening that opposes maybe a value that we hold, that creates that inner dialogue, that inner tension. What do I resolve that? So I think one of the things that I think is key to begin this is how aware are we of that tension? Because very often I find sometimes leaders, when we were in a world of speed and haste, and we run from media to media.

We have no time for self. And so very often we're really not even aware of the load that this decision is making on us, that this this difficult conversation that awaits us, as they to be aware of that, to be aware of, wow, this is, I have a lot of emotions coming up here. Or this is really impacting what I think about myself. And I'm beginning to doubt myself and doubt my authority.

Or I'm really worried that if I say something, I'm fracturing a relationship. And just to sit in that, I think is the key to begin this. And then once we have that knowledge, then we can begin to do something about it. But if we don't, then we're always in a reactive space.

We're always in a reactive space, and we want to create space with choice. I think there's a level of anticipation too, though. Anticipating an undesirable outcome before it actually happens, and that creates this hesitancy, yes, dialogue internally that makes us feel should I or shouldn't I? Should I, should I?

And project the worst case scenario in most cases, how that's going to play out. But the reality is we really can't figure it out. And it's just racing through our mind over and over. We're trying to play these different dynamics, and that's scary as hell.

Oh, it's scary. And that's that's the inner dialogue conflict that starts to surface within self. Yeah, you're so right. So spot on there, because as human beings, we are meaning makers.

We will, whenever there is a gap in any information, we will fill it in. And so this anticipation, and of course, we anticipate, we always have a bias towards what could go wrong. Sometimes when I'm coaching, it is a question. I've got a person in front of me and they're going through this turmoil.

This thing, oh my God, this is an important relationship. And you don't understand if I get this wrong, etc. And I said, I'm listening here and I'm hearing you say, What could go wrong? Let me ask you this question.

What would happen if everything went right? Right. And there's such a release in that because we never go there. We always go for what's going to go wrong.

And then it can because really what you need is I can make the conversation easier. It is difficult. It's going to be difficult, it's going to be maybe all messy. But if you can encourage to go there because you have a vision of what could go right, that's a different energy.

The strategic capacity of what I'm saying, right? We know that risk is always around us. Yeah. We understand that as leaders, right?

But our programming is to react and always be ready to try to fix, right? And then that creates this anticipation. Well, what if things doesn't go right? And like you said, the strategic capacity component is instead of looking at what if things go wrong, what if things go great?

Yeah. And there's just a different energy and just shifting your thought process around the good that can happen. And I think from an internal standpoint, when you feel confident, reassured about self, those conversations that we label as difficult, are they really difficult in that moment now? And I think I would add, well, I would add one other thing which I think is important as well, is sometimes in this debate or this coaching cover, a person say to me, Well, what if I say something that really the other person finds either offensive or damages?

And I said, you know what? There's a line here where it's tricky. And I said, you know what, you probably might go over that line sometimes. But I said, what you're underestimating is your ability to recognize it and say, oh, I said something I shouldn't have said.

We can repair things as we go along. We just need the confidence to do that. And we're always trying to find, we don't have to go in with the perfect words. It can't be rehearsed.

We can't go in with scripts. We're to feel this out. And sometimes we will cross the line and that's okay because we can repair as we go along. And if we have confidence in that, then it makes difficult conversations a lot.

Well, we just go in with a different mindset, a different framework. So we both will acknowledge that this conflict a lot of times can start internally. It's but my question to you with the work that you do, and I'm assuming the consulting coaching. I do, yep, consulting too, yeah.

Consulting, okay. The consulting work that you do, you're working with people on the external part of conflict and how we just broke this down. What's your approach to helping your clients? How do is there a particular framework that you use, a methodological approach that you take?

Yeah, it's interesting because sometimes we'll be called in. What I would say is we're called in under uh what I call hot conflict. So sometimes we're called in when two people are either at it or a team is at it. Unfortunately, that's not the best time, actually.

And what people will ask, well, we need a mediator, et cetera. And mediation can be fine. But here's the problem. I think most times mediation is by putting a band-aid on a situation that is difficult, and we need two people to work together.

And what it doesn't do often is really build the capacity to help each person who's in the conflict really deal with not only what they're in at the moment, but all future tension and friction as it comes. And so therefore, I think what we do is a kind of a three-stage model, which we call conflict EQ, which is this marriage of conflict and emotional intelligence. And there's three parts to that. One is building the capacity to create deliberate responses.

So some training around, so in the moment of tension, when we would be reactive, what's our reactive tendencies? How can I create some space so that my responses are choices and more deliberate? The second thing then is how can I build better conversations? So these focus on more skills that we know are key to good conversations.

Listening, question, not rocket science here, but but just good listening skills, good question skills, making sure that we know what a good agreement is. What are we asking for? Right. And then the third area is navigating tension.

What do I do if I get stuck? There are certain things we can do in a conversation that feels stuck where everyone is dug in and we can't move on. What are some ways we can navigate that tension? What are some ways we can kind of loosen that up a little bit?

Because there's two things that we want. We want the person to remain in the conversation, not withdraw, and we want that conversation to move forward. So that's the three areas that we tackle. Okay, so help me help simplify it a little bit more for me.

How does it help one regulate self? The process of what you just shared, how does that help me self-regulate internally? Because I believe that's where the real conflict exists. And until we can refine what's happening inside my inner arena here, the conflict is always going to exist externally because of the hesitation that I naturally carry internally.

Yeah. So in that first, in that first section about deliberate responses, I think this inner regulation, well, before we can regulate, we have to recognize, we have to know what we're regulating. So then this awareness piece is essential. I think in that awareness piece, we have an emotional life and we also have our cognitive life.

So how aware are we of our emotions? I am sometimes shocked by the limited vocabulary that we have around emotions. And a simple question, how are you feeling, can have some people like, I'm not sure. Oh, I'm angry.

Well, tell me a little bit about that anger, you know, or or I'm sad or I'm happy. So can we begin to really have a richer language about our emotions? Because our emotions are driving some of our behaviors. And then cognitive, we're constantly making stories.

So if I'm caught in a story, how aware am I in that story? Like how much of this is me? And how much of this, if a camera was looking in, would show as well. And what am I missing here?

Because the problem is in any conflict, we zero in and we lose all the periphery. So can I get some of that? Then the second thing I would say, Mo, is that is our body is a font of wisdom. And very often our body is giving us signals before we're even aware of it.

So can I master a little bit more of reading those signs? Oh, I'm feeling really hot, or oh, my heart is beating here, or actually, oh, I might I'm tense, I can feel it. And and then the third thing was we are creatures of habit that tend our patterns when, especially when it comes to being triggered. How aware are we of our triggers?

How aware are we? Why is it that person gets me? What is it they're doing? What is it about this situation that really triggers me?

Because there's a pattern, if we can become aware of it, then that creates I'm going into this meeting and I know that uh I just have a tough time of Mary. She's gonna say something, it's gonna get me going. And then just to know that, to think, well, okay, then if Mary says that today, then this is how I'm going to regulate myself. And then where the regulation comes in is these tools that can really help us slow down, be more deliberate, have more choice.

That's really where the expertise is. Yeah, and you're tapping into what I always talk about, right? Number one is the self-awareness. That you have to be aware, one of your emotions, just the general, how am I feeling right now, and being able to articulate that.

That creates awareness. From that awareness, you can start to pinpoint patterns that you have. You can when that you have a history of worrying, for example, through your parents, through upbringing, and when difficult pressure situations come, you have a tendency to worry. And you know that about yourself.

Now there's so much more intentions of what you can do to combat that. That's the strategic capacity that we're talking about here, right? This is my my tendency is when I have to make hard decisions, I get this nervous feeling and I start worrying about worst-case can what worst-case scenarios of what can happen. Yeah.

Awareness is knowing that pattern within self. And if you know that pattern within self, guess what? There's power of choice in there. Right.

And at the end of the day, we can't control a lot of the external stuff that's happening, including conflicts. Yes. But what we can control is how we show up in the conflict, whatever that looks like. You know what I mean?

That self-awareness is so important because I really believe that it does generate a level of purpose for you. Like, where do I fit into all of this dynamics, transition, organizational change, whatever that's creating this, this conflict? And what's my why? What's my purpose in here?

Yeah. And you can discover that. Guess what? You naturally take alignment and action steps, actionable steps to getting the success that you're desiring.

And when you can do that, you're not gonna quit on yourself. You're gonna you're gonna see this baby through. And that's just so powerful. And it all starts with self-awareness.

And one other layer I would just add as you're it came up to me as you were speaking as well, is that the word I love to use is that we are befriending these tendencies be in us because somehow we can be so self-critical. And just say, in a conversation, say we're avoidant. And it's so easy to beat yourself out. Well, there I go again.

There I go, you know, I'm avoiding a conversation when I suck again. And I always say, just the reason it's there is because it has protected you in the past. It served something important for you. And maybe you're overusing it now.

But befriend it, just be curious, have a scientific mind. Like imagine putting yourself on a white coat in a lab and just investigate. What is this? Why am I doing this?

And asking some great questions. When you bring that spirit to something, rather than cursing something, you begin to learn about, hmm, that's interesting. That's why I'm using it, that's why it's become important. And it was useful then, but maybe it's not useful now.

And what might be another way I could react? And I think that curiosity, that befriending is a beautiful spirit. And more importantly, it helps you show up as a better version of you. Yeah.

In the midst of whatever type of conflict that's happening externally, because you have to self-regulate internally. You have to first. And when you can become an expert at that, yes, man, you're good. You're good.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the other thing that I would just add on to that as well is that I think we forget so often the power of the presence we bring into a conversation. So if we are not aware of our anxiety, of whatever it is going on within us, that is going to impact the conversation without us saying a word. People, people, we know emotional contagion, people catch that.

So to be more deliberate about how we're showing up, to be more deliberate, doing that inner work and then saying, This is how I want to show up, that has impact before we even say a word. I think that's so important. Let me reframe this question. Share a dynamic in a way that you've helped a leader, uh, organization struggling with conflict and they just couldn't get out of their own way.

What did that look like? And how did you have to help them? How did you help them make that shift? So one that comes to mind was the leadership team I was working with.

And what so often happens is that it's HR who reach out reaches out. Because HR become the referee. And whenever teams are not getting it, then they'll reach out to HR and they say, We have a problem with this team. You need to help us.

And per old HR people are dragged in there thinking, I never trained to be a referee. This is not what I was trained to do. I need you to get your act together and do it yourself. So that's often what happens.

So you go into a team, and what we'll normally start is by interviewing everyone. But what came out very clearly with this team. Is that important issues were not being discussed and they were sh swept under the the rug. And one of the things that happens when that becomes a little bit of a culture is that trust is fractured.

Because what the internal message is that, well, why should I bother? You've already made your mind up. You know where you're going. Well, anything I say is not going to matter.

So there's this almost resignation, and this was happening on this team. And so we went in, and and actually the the simplest thing is to go in and say, hey, you need to have better conversations. And that's not where to start. That's the end.

What you really needed to start is how able are we to hold tension? And what happens when you feel tense at the meeting? What is your go-to reaction? And really to help people work through that and say, what would it mean to risk a question?

Could we hold each other accountable to risk a conversation? And so that's the work. Now, what was interesting about this team was a few weeks later, the HR director, I was in conversation and they said, Well, something you did seems to work. And I said, Well, what happened?

And they said, Well, I was talking to one of the team members and they said, Well, we reached one of those moments where we had this decision point. Do we say something? Do we not? And she said, The comment I got back was, you know, this time is a little different.

I said, We we stayed in the conversation. And she said, Well, how was it? He said, Oh, it was as comfortable, uncomfortable as hell. He said, But we work through it.

And I what I love about that is I'm not here to give you a magic wand and arrive at a kumbaya moment. That's really what it's about. But can we have the ability to stay in the tension? And if we do, then it becomes easier.

Those first times are difficult, but it becomes easier over time because that trust that's being fractured is now beginning to build. And what level from our conversation earlier around the inner dialogue and conflict that we often carry, how did that show up in this particular scenario with these teams that you were working with? Well, I think how it showed up was that I think there was a lot of inner dialogue around participation, about trust, a lot of inner dialogue about relationship fracture.

And they don't care about me. They don't care about my opinion. Please talk and they don't care about my opinion. If and then some dialogue as well, just about worth, about the leader of this team was really struggling, really saying, I'm look, I look incompetent.

Because this is what happens to a lot of leaders is if there's tension or conflict in my team, then it's my fault. I'm not doing something right. This stupid illusion that somehow every team should not be in conflict. And so there's a lot of messages about self-worth from the leader.

So all of these were absolutely impacting or preventing, actually, a conversation that needed to happen on the table. And everyone had settled into their own scripts, and that's where they were functioning from. Man, I'm smiling because everything that you just described, and what I'm my famous signature line for that, that's that punk ass inner critic. Yeah.

That's what it is. And it gets louder, and it often distract us away from our worth and our purpose and our awareness. Because that's where he operates best in chaos. Yeah.

And create these flawed illusions in our mind that the other team doesn't trust us, what's the point of even bringing us up? Blah, blah, blah, is to create to maintain the resistance. That's what the inner critic does. That's his MO.

But if when we become determined to see it through and work through these different dynamics that we're experiencing, continuing to ask ourselves, why is this important? How does this make us feel? All of those things, that's what starts to close the trust gaps that exist. And when that starts to close, guess what?

We start to like each other. We start feeling confident. We start seeing more, we start being more optimistic about the results of the way things are moving. And it just becomes a beautiful place, man.

And that's what I heard. And when we all deal with this though, not I'm not immune to this. I deal with my inner critic too. But that's where that inner dialogue starts, man.

And when we forget to pause, because you know what happens in the pause, Irvin? What happens? Self-awareness. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's what you said. When we start, you help people. It's self-awareness.

Absolutely. And you work with a lot of leaders. I know you do. I know you do exceptional work.

And you can confirm this. There go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. I can't afford to stop. I can't.

I gotta go. We gotta keep up. We gotta keep up. There's no pause in that.

And without that pause, you lose a bit of self-awareness. And then that's where the inner critic seeps in, and that's where all the conflicts internally starts to exist. Absolutely. It is shocking to me that whenever I do workshops, I'll ask simple questions like how many people here take a lunch break?

No one takes a lunch break. No one. No one. No one.

And it's almost like what world do we live in where we expect human beings to be on nine hours, eight hours a day with no break. It's just, think about that. We would never make an athlete do that. And so expectations are ridiculous.

And to realize that you can function to the best of your ability without rest, without a pause throughout the day, it's we are setting ourselves up for burnout. We're setting ourselves up for failure. And it's sad to see because leadership is a difficult role today. There's a lot of popcorn critics there.

And to really not enable moments throughout the day where you can give yourself just a little break, a little breath, sometime critically important. Well, I think that's a subject for another conversation, bro. Because there's guilt associated with that. Oh yeah.

That you can't slow down. And if I slow down, I'll be letting other people down because narrative, narrative. But as we get ready to close out, what's a powerful thought that you can leave us with? I would say conflict isn't the problem.

Your capacity to hold tension will enable you to answer any conflict in your life. I like that. I like that. How can my audience find you?

Feel free to reach out to me either on the website, conflicteq.com. I'm very active in LinkedIn. Post a lot of content there.

Feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. And I also have a YouTube channel called Urban Nutz Emotional Intelligence. And if you want some videos, I'm in there too. Sounds great.

Thank you, my friend. I appreciate your wisdom that you dropped here today. Appreciate our conversation. I loved it.

Thank you. That's another rep in the inner arena. You didn't just listen, you leveled up your swag. Self-awareness, why power, aligned action, and grit.

If this hit home, share it, subscribe to the Let's Think About It podcast, and lock in with me on YouTube at Swag Coaching. Until next time, stay aware, lead with your why, act in the moment, and keep your grit going.