Why Every Leader Needs a Mentor with Helen Patterson

Who do you want to be as a leader? What are the blind spots you're missing? If you had a magic wand and you could change anything about your workplace, what would you do with it? These are the kinds of questions we explore on Inspirational Leadership. I'm your host, Kristen Harcourt. I'm a keynote speaker, emotional intelligence coach and leadership trainer who partners with executives and emerging leaders who want to achieve extraordinary results for themselves and their organizations. And you're in the right place if you're ready to cultivate the self awareness to be the leader you were born to be. Let's go on this journey together. Welcome to Inspirational Leadership. I'm your host Kristen Harcourt and we have another amazing, amazing guest. As the founder of Life Works well, Helen Patterson brings Twitter 20 plus years of passion and experience creating healthy, high performance and heart centered cultures. Her passions are culture, mentorship and work life integration. Helen believes that mentorship can create a ripple effect at work, in the community and even in the world. Helen is the past chair of Mentorship at the Toronto west chapter of the Human Resource Professional Association. She was a top five mentor of the year for FuturePreneur in 2020 and also mentors for startup. Mentorship is a huge part of Life Works well and her personal mission. And she recently published her first book, Create a Mentor Culture, how to Mentor with Heart and Start a Ripple Effect. Welcome to the show, Helen. Hello. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I am very excited for this conversation as well and I always like to let the listeners know a little bit of background that I have known Helen since I the calculations before we got on this conversation. We met in 2017 when I was just starting my business through back in the day when it was called Twitter and we were tweeting and we always was using same hashtags around heart centered and work human and positive work cultures. And of course Twitter brought us together and here we are now, almost 10 years since we've known each other and what a beautiful place to be because Helen is. She shines her light brightly and just an amazing person. So I'm really excited for everyone to get a chance to get to know you today. Oh my gosh, thank you. That is so lovely. I know I was thinking about that before I came on as well and because we were like at disrupt HR or other HR things and then we got to spend some time at work human and I was using also human first and it was just so funny how I this world brought us together. Yeah. And Virtually. And now we have such a wonderful friendship and, you know, support each other in our work and life. Yeah. When you have those shared passions, it's funny how you find yourself, you find your ways to each other. So, Helen, I would love people to give, get an opportunity to get to know a little bit more about you and your story and your journey and what got you to the work that you're doing in the world. And when you get to share your story, you get to be as vulnerable as you want to be and take us anywhere. You could start at 3 year old Helen, 10 year old Helen. You know, you're back in school, wherever you'd like to start. Tell us more about your story. Isn't that funny? If we started there young, I would be here all day. So I don't think so. But you know, it's, it's interesting because once you start to be more aware of letting go and allowing things. Yes. Life can feel so much easier and you're not fighting the status quo and all the shoulds and things like that. And it's kind of interesting because when I was younger, I didn't have a lot of guides I had because my parents were born in Poland, both of them, and they were both refugees, they were both torn from their homes during the war, at World War II. And I think there's so much that comes from their stories that was kind of embedded in me. And so I understand that feeling of not belonging and all of those things that we didn't have terms for years ago. Even when I was in human resources earlier. Right. But I think for me, I was, when I was younger, I was more open to trying anything because I didn't really have anyone saying, you must go to school, you must do this, you must do that. And then I kind of lost that person because we awake up and we're brainwashed. We had this little chat before we got on about all the things that we're supposed to do like get married and go to school and do this anyway. So somehow though, I got it upon myself to put myself through school and, and work full time practically. When I was doing that was the first of a family of five, but I was the first one to go to university. And so I practiced law first. So that was my first career, employment law and hr. That brought me then to human resources eventually and a long career there and all kinds of different roles. Organizational development, program policy. I did a lot of work in employee relations. So I saw a lot of the tough parts, you know, conflict and harassment and poison work environments. And so that, and using my law degree, you know, together was kind of the journey. And I think there must be something about me holding space for people because it seems like I always end up in that space regardless if I try to get away from it and help with people culture. It's like everybody just likes to sit in an office with me and let me know what they're struggling with. And you know, I think if we can find people to hold that space. And so I didn't have a lot of mentors either until later in life. And I think now I can look back and say some teachers and things like that. But I think having someone in your corner is really helpful. And I think having seen a lot, which you have too in your career, I think that's why this passion for heart center, this passion for the humanity, this passion for, you know, allowing people to bring theirselves to work, but to have support and compassion for that really has stayed with me for a long time. So here I am. It makes, it makes so much sense because I think you bring so much of both sides like when it comes to the linear and the heart, like the head and the heart. Right. So you have that background in terms of the law and the legal where you can understand the compliance and also be able to understand the strategy and speak the language which helps to get the buy in. But then through getting that buy in you bring in. Okay. But we also need to connect to the human. And even when you talk about it's not and you and I both shared this passion around, it's not human capital, it's human relations. Like these are humans. We don't think of the humans as this like capital and these dollar signs. Right. And so it really makes a lot of sense the way you've been able to merge both of those successfully to be able to I think also be that trusted advisor as well. Right. Because sometimes just knowing your background, depending on who's that in that room, while they need that love and compassion in the space, they also trust that you have that understanding and that experience, that wisdom that that can support them in the right way as well. So I think it makes a lot of sense that you've got that combination. Yeah, it's kind of interesting because I remember one of the first disrupts I did out in Winnipeg. I was at ADP Canada at the time, which I didn't mention, but my corporate. I started my business Life works well because I had managed work life programs while I was at one of the large Banks. And it was very much a passion, which again, makes sense. This, you know, it's a harmony thing. It's not like one or the other. And it's how do we, how do we merge this? So. And I know you're a huge, you know, proponent of work life integration and all of that, but when I was at adp, you know, as a tech company, we were moving from payroll to hr and I had an opportunity to speak and I called it the law of human first, which is kind of interesting because it was like, really, if you just treat people well, if you design your workplaces in such a way that is bringing out the best of everybody, you're not going to need the laws, right? Yes. It's the law of human first versus like put all these policies in and you know, thou shalt do this and that. And it's like how you, you know, you follow all these things that really, it's. Right, let's get down to the level of connection. And so, I mean, it's a beautiful time right now because we're seeing some shifts. Right. So hopefully after all these years. But yes, yeah, there's been, I think there's been a lot of shifts just in terms of the languaging that we use in terms of compassion and psychological safety and making sure that we're being aware of workforces. And I love what you said there as well, because I think sometimes the focus gets put in the wrong place. Right. So hyper focused on the compliance, not recognizing that. And it's not an either or, it's a yes. And. But if we create an environment where people want to do their best work, where they want to live and breathe the values, then there are going to be less compliance challenges. Let's start there. Let's start there. So let's talk a little bit more about mentoring. It's something that I'm super passionate about. And I remember we were talking about this when you were first getting into the book is around even how sometimes people will use the words mentoring, coaching, consulting interchangeably, like they're all the same thing. So let's just start off by even from your perspective, when we start to think of mentoring, how would you describe mentoring? Oh, I love this. I do. There is a chapter in the book where I talk about the different types of relationships. Mentorship, coaching, sponsorship, and then even other relationships. Right. We have colleagues and peers and managers and everything. But those are what I call the big three. And I remember actually speaking with you when I was doing research for the book and interviewed I think it was over 60 leaders in, in. And so I can't, can't include everyone in the book. But I remember having a chat with you and it really resonated too that you understood this difference between a mentor and a coach and a sponsor. And it's, people still, still mix it up. People are still saying they're mentoring, but yet they're paying for those services. And it's sort of, to me, it does a disservice to both coaching, mentorship and sponsorship. Right. That like, let's, let's really go back to the traditional defin definition of mentorship for me is where you and it can be, it doesn't necessarily need to be hierarchical, but you have some knowledge and wisdom, some lived experience or some specialist expertise that you can share with, with others freely. And it's, it's an exchange, it's a relationship. Right. And often it becomes reciprocal mentorship because we learn from each other. But traditionally it is someone that has had that lived experience and knowledge and wisdom that they, they then hold space for others. Now during that time, they might still ask coach like questions. They may like coaches to me are the ones that are asking a lot of questions. They don't necessarily need to have that expertise in a certain domain to be able to help guide someone to find the answers within. I mean, if we could do it all, that would be great. Right? Right. But you and I talked and we, and there was a catalyst study as well, and it was like ment talk to you, coaches talk with you and sponsors talk about you. And I thought to me to keep it that simple really makes sense. And it, and you said in one of the inter. In the interview, you said, when I'm with a client, sometimes I'm coaching, I'm in the midst of it. But if I have some experience, I would say, would you mind if I gave you a little bit of advice and put my mentor hat on, take my coach hat off? Because I have some. But not everybody. And you do want to get permission for that. You don't want to just say because not everybody wants to receive advice either. It takes a while. So that's sort of how I've looked at it. There's a lot being talked about with sponsorship right now. And I think it's very important in the employment equity, diversity, inclusion, like really helping people that maybe haven't had the advantages and really championing for them. However, that's a longer discussion I think, because I think, you know, for me, what I love about mentorship, it's for all. Like, I think once we start to create this, like only for certain groups, it does, it does then take away and it creates other, other challenges. But in a nutshell, I mean, mentorship's been around for, for centuries. Right. So yeah, being having someone in your corner and someone that can kind of guide you and you can seek some advice from. Yeah. It's interesting. I was so excited when you were talking about this book because when I think about my career journey and what got me to where I am today, it has been so many mentors and, and I'm actually proud of like 20 year old or you know, at the time when I think the first time I did it, I would have been about 25 years old where I just asked like, I asked that person to say, like, I wouldn't have necessarily formally said, will you be my mentor? But I did say, you know, these are some of the things I'm navigating and you know, this is how I would like. These are some of my goals and where I see myself in the next three to five years. And I would love to be able to learn from you and ask you questions and, and then as I, as I kind of progressed in my career, I think sometimes I might have even used the languaging of mentors. But I definitely would not be where I am today without I can think of at least like five or six very strong mentors that not only were they giving me, sharing their experiences and sharing information and giving advice, they were also reflecting back things and seeing things in myself that I might have not been able to see in me. Right. Which they also have, being that some of these mentors were five years, ten years ahead of me. There's just things that you don't have that necessarily self awareness or understanding of yourself yet, but they can already because of their experience and learn, learn behavior as well, see things in you that you don't always see in yourself and reflect that back, which I thought that was hugely powerful. Amazing. I think Oprah has a quote I might have put in there about that that they see. See things in you, you know, and, and it's wonderful that you had that support and you know, early on in your career, you don't necessarily have the funds for coaches. I see value in all of them. As you know, I've had coaches too, and mentors and you know, through programs as well. There's, there's, you know, one of the organizations I also support right now. It's called Black Mentorship, Inc. And wonderful story to follow. And a portion of the proceeds of every book is going to that organization. And they saw a gap. The founder, Evangeline Chima, she saw a gap in the. In that, you know, seeing people like you in the. In the workplace or finding those career mentors. And so she created this amazing organization. And I think. And that's the thing is not all of those youth can actually go out and spend money on education because, you know, mentors, a lot of mentors are teachers. And that's why that mentor coach gets a bit confusing, because they are. They do have a program they're really teaching. And so I see it as a little different. Teaching, consulting, you know, that you're getting paid for those services, but the ones where it's like, you've done it, you're doing it, you're giving from your heart. Right. And you're giving the space and time, it really resonates the. The true definition of. Of mentorship. Right. But I think that you having those experiences and. And identifying it. Because many people are afraid to ask someone. Absolutely. Right. Because it is. It can be a little bit intimidating. Right. Going into. In my case, it would have been someone thinking, like, those first couple of jobs, two different people that I would have reached out to. They were not in my direct department. They were in other areas of the business. But to me, I just. I saw them being successful, and I thought, I look for the successful people, and I want to know what they're doing and how they got to where they got to. But, yeah, it is. There is. There is. It can be a little bit intimidating. And that's why I think it's great when there's also situations where an organization intentionally creates a mentorship program so that. That also takes away some of that intimidation, so the person doesn't feel uncomfortable reaching out to that person in the same way, because some of that matching happens. So I'd love to hear from your perspective. There's two questions that come up for me. One, I'm just curious around, like, for you specifically, like, when you write a book, and I like to call it like a book baby, because you're birthing something into the world and you started to allude to it, like, why mentoring you think is so important. But let's start there, because I think even when you start to talk about the ripple effect, why was this book so important for you to write? And why do you think it is so powerful? Yeah, it's so interesting because how the story about how it happened is kind of interesting, because I was at adp, a large global tech organization. And I was with a marketing and product management department, so I was using my HR and legal skills completely differently, building out these services. And we had a meeting and all of a sudden someone said, did you know that we had this mentor program? Right? And everyone's like, no, didn't hear about this mentor program. And. But it's. It was wonderful. It was for emerging leaders, but it's. I mean, it's a global organization. It was 85, 000 employees, I believe. So how. It wasn't available. And I got that because they were probably, you know, piloting at first. But it. It kind of sparked something in me of, why not, you know, why not mentorship for all? And I'm just thinking, can you imagine how if everyone was lifted and whatever they're is, you know, they reach those goals, whatever it is, whether it's confidence or the next role or just having it available to all. And it just got me on this, thinking about it. And I was speaking on reciprocal mentorship with a colleague at a. At HRPA conference the next year, and it sort of just started this. I. I'm really interested in researching this. And so I just put it out there, which is kind of interesting because I thought, I'm gonna write a book on it. At the time, there was only about a dozen tech companies, like mentorship tech companies. So that was probably around just before I left, because we met in 2017 and I left. So that's when the spark was starting. And then now it's just boomed. I mean, there's. There are tons of platforms. I'm like, I probably should have started one of my own or something like that, but. But it just. It mushrooms for there. But the book writing process was not as easy as I thought it would be. And it just. Life gets life and work. We talked about that a little bit in that harmony and that things can happen. But I was really, really curious. The curiosity got me of why isn't this not everywhere? And then why are some programs not working when they have programs? Why is it only the Fortune 500 anyway? That's how it kind of birthed. And I talked to a lot of my colleagues as a start there. A couple of them were interviewed for the books too, because they were being approached sometimes to be a mentor. And they're like, well, I don't even know how to be one. So there's a chapter for all of that in there. There's how to start a program, there's how to be a great mentor. There's, you know, how to find one outside of your org. So it's sort of a. It's like an encyclopedia in a way. There's. There. It could be. But the ripple effect, I thought, didn't come till later. And that's sort of interesting because I was so focused on corporate and in an organization. But I started coming up, this is what happens. The baby, the baby starts to grow, the toddler and then teen, and then there's more ideas. But it, it kind of came to a. A really good spot and, you know, mentoring within an organization. But then what about, you know, volunteerism and having people mentor outside in the community through even like corporate social. Social responsibility and time off and then that's that ripple starting and then imagine. So once you've been mentored, yes, you become a mentor. You. You've mentored many, I'm sure. And so that's that ripple effect and it can spread all over the world. So, yeah, I got goosebumps now. So when the passion comes out, the book writing, it's a little bit of another story. But yes, that could be a whole side conversation around getting your book out and all the things that come in between. But I think. I think what I've also observed is the thing that's so beautiful around mentoring is it's so reciprocal. Right. There's a giving and there's a receiving. Right. The mentor is getting so much out of it. It feels so good to be able to give back in that way and be able to help someone. And, you know, some of the things that maybe you wish someone would have told you when you were earlier in your career and whatever that looks like, you know, you could be in your 60s and still getting mentored from somebody who might be just in. Maybe they're in a different field and you've moved in. Like these days, people are pivoting into all these different areas. So it's so great for the mentor and then of course, the mentee. How beautiful to have someone being able to share and have an opportunity for them to learn to grow and ask questions and be able to navigate things that might have felt, you know, a little bit intimidating or a little bit uncomfortable or, you know, sometimes depending on the industry as well, or the size of the organization or the complexity around the politics, there's these different things that can be quite nuanced. And so to have somebody that you trust to be able to ask those questions to where you're not going to feel judged, and their really only interest is being able to Champion you. It's a huge, huge win. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so. And as I started researching and then as I reading, but then also as the algorithm changes, I just kept getting more and I thought, wow, this is like people do love it. And some people will say I have never had a mentor and so how do I find one? And you know, there's, there's this need for the. What we talked about right from the beginning was it's the human connection. It is that connection that is missing. And this is such a beautiful way to develop in organizations as part of the, as part of professional development, as part of learning and development and for leaderships. You know, the leaders, like you said, they, they can gain so many skills as well. And so it's such a beautiful thing that I think we're hearing a lot more about it now. But it still fascinates me that it's still down the line on the priorities for the organization. And so the creativity is. What you have to, I think think about is are there creative ways to bring it in that are low expense if you can't afford the tech. Right. Or if you can do group mentoring so it hits more people because you have maybe a curricula based mentorship where those skills, the transferable skills, the upskilling, all of that can, you can do that through mentor programs. People might say it's education, but if you can build in the mentor piece with it where it's not just a structured, you know, follow the curricula, then it's. That's training. Right. Versus building in some of those connections. And you want, you do. I think you're right. You hit it on. You do want to kind of connect and get to know people. So I look at that as sort of like the recruitment process that like before you actually commit to a longer six month or nine month or year, whatever your program is going to be or your relationship, why not have a few of these like speed mentoring or other social ways to gather to then figure out, oh, who is this right person for me? And you, you mentioned it too. It could be based on what, what it is you're looking for next, what skills or just what confidence. But there's just so many ways you can, you can do that. And that's why I'm so passionate about it. And I am now seeing it a lot more. I' of the International Mentoring association and it's global and so a lot of it is in academia which again and then large corporations that have the budgets. But I'd Love to see it spread in, in other ways too. And I think that you can again, be creative. And these days, well, we have AI agents, I guess that you can have a. Not that I would be a fan of talking to a computer. Right. Well, to help with the organizing. Right. To help with the organ. Like really what AI is designed for is that optimizing and doing background stuff to create efficiencies and then the humans come together. And you've taken me beautifully where I wanted to go with you next because there are going to be some HR leaders that are listening that might not be in larger organizations. And of course I'm going to recommend everybody read your book because it's going to go into all of this in way more detail. But if they're just thinking, you know what I'm really feeling inspired by what Helen is saying. And I think our organization should be looking into doing some sort of mentorship program just as if you were thinking about a couple of first steps they could do. So like you talked about that it doesn't have to be complicated and you can do a, you know, a smaller scale thing. But what are some things that you would recommend as a starting point? If anyone, an HR leader or you know, even someone's going to come into their organization and perhaps advocate for if it's smaller and there isn't even much of an HR just to get started, what would you recommend? Yeah, I think that's great too because that's, that's one of the things, obviously, if you have thousands and thousands, you're not going to hit it, hit it all right away. So some people, and what we've done in some organizations is to look at maybe the onboarding. So as part of your onboarding, which, you know, you have three to six months of a process already ideally, and if you don't, then maybe reach out to someone, I'm sure that it's there. But that would be a great starting point for new, new employees. So you could start, some people call it a buddy or something like that, but you could make it a little bit more robust and have a mentoring. And then at least that way you have time specific too. So you can kind of measure like retention and things like that. One of the things, one of the chapters I do talk about really taking a look at your why. And I mean we know the why purpose, all of these things. Like, I, I kind of think that's important for everything that we do. Right. But especially for this competition for programs because there's so much that organizations are having to address. But it's a, you know, if you do some analysis on that and like what's the why and the engagement connection, the retention. There's more studies now. Thankfully, like before everybody quoted the same stat that was available years ago. It was like 72% of people are retained or. And are promoted. And now there's a lot more, a lot more research to leverage on some of those, some of those numbers. But knowing the reason why. So if you really want a great, amazing onboarding experience and that people, you know, it's not just. It was during the recruitment process like this is an amazing place to work and then you, you know, you put them through potentially, you know, values and all of those things and then someone is there to ask, you know, be there for you if you have questions but also look at what your interests are. So that's one great starting point. A lot of other people do. The emerging leaders, which I mentioned again because when you're moving from an individual contributor and to a new leader role, as you know. Yes. That is a big change. Yeah. And I think so. I get it. As much as I was hurt that I wasn't part of that at the time, it didn't matter because I wasn't going to be a manager. I was happy with my individual contributor role. But you know, I can, I can joke about it now, but I think that, that because you're looking at various skill sets and you can do it and you could do that in groups rather than. It's all one on one. Because the thing is there's so many beautiful mentors and wonderful mentors and everybody wants to work with them and they only have so much capacity. They can't. They're not, that's not their full time job. Right. But the book helps you with that. Like the why like the whole program methodology. Because I've implemented so many programs in my HR experience at large organizations, small, you name it and I just apply the same thing. So they could just take that and run it through. Yeah. And pilot it. Usually as you know, you would recommend that for programs as well. Like maybe try it in one area that that makes sense. Like maybe the sales team needs it or something like that. And then because it's so successful, then you can expand it to the rest of the organization. Yeah, of course. I love what you're saying though. It's a great reminder around piloting because I think sometimes we forget about this. Even though, you know, you would think like of course everyone pilots. That's not always the Case. And there's many reasons, and I want this as a reminder, not just for mentorship programs. I mean for anything. If you're trying to get buy in for the organization in something that you're investing. I mean, obviously for the mentoring program, it's still financial investments based on, if you're using some of somebody's time, that's a financial investment as well. But to really think about piloting because it is so effective at being able to give people a taste of what this thing is and then also be able to have some iterations, right. What's working well, what's not working well, being able to get some of those things that maybe need to be changed around. And then when you do the next cohort, you're learning, you're growing, you're making changes as it moves along. So I think that's a great reminder around the piloting and I would also encourage, and I thank you for saying that around your experience because I think sometimes there's this belief that everybody, if they're a strong individual contributor, they should want to go into leadership and that should be their path. Guess what? There are many people that, that should not be the path. They don't want that to be their path. And, but they still want to grow and develop. There might be ways that they want to move into other areas of the organization or maybe they could be a team lead, like another way where they're continuing to learn and grow, but they're not interested in going up the corporate ladder and have a whole bunch of direct reports. That's just not actually what they want. And so I think it's actually really valuable to have mentoring available to everybody and not be again, for sure, emerging leaders because of the challenges they have. But I just want to give a shout out for the individual contributors who sometimes are high, high performers and they should still be rewarded and they should still be given opportunities to have access to this just because they're not doing that pathway. Yeah, great reminder. And it's interesting because it is really recommended and even the academic research, a lot of this confirms this, that it really is part of your learning and development. It. It's not just the standalone like really that if you can incorporate it in that it makes so much more sense. Right. And you're measuring it. And it's so funny because I have been a leader too, right. So I've, I've done that. I've done both and I still, you know, have team members now. But it's, it's kind of interesting because we do tend to as you know what happens is people promote. Right. Technical skills and they didn't have those leadership skills which. And you're all about the leadership skills. And I, I think this group mentoring is a great way to do to, to get those skills across the organization in a much wider way. And so when they talk about grow group mentoring really what that is is, is again knowledge exchange and you would have a component of with the group but then some one on ones. Yeah. And I find that, that, that is a fantastic because you also get the peer mentoring and the peer support as part of it and you can broaden it. And then I just wanted to share this one thing because I just heard Brene Brown on an interview. I forget which HR tech company it was, but it was. They were doing a learning day. Of course I have to try to see her if I can. And she said that the next, the next biggest skill that's needed is nervous system regulation. Yes. And I thought we all know like if you've done the work on it because we're seeing everybody in the organization like stressed out, burnt out, whatever. So what I love about this as a form of learning and, and, and mentorship as that is like you can have those again curricula based like let's, let's have some sessions on well being how like not just let's go take steps outside, that's good too. But this nervous system regulation so we don't have all this conflict and then marry that with some one on one for the people that maybe don't want to talk about it in a group but they listen. I just want to explain that yeah, I'm feeling this and I can tell my reaction from this particular person in a confidential setting. You know, I think that there's so much that we can, that we can learn from all of that. It's big. Right. Because also then people start to feel less alone and they realize their peers are having a lot of the same struggles. And I agree with Brene, if I look at so many of my coaching clients over I would say since COVID like that's. It's just started from there and has gone from there with all of the massive change that is constantly happening and that's not going to go away. And being able to regulate and take care of yourself and your nervous system through all of that change that's constantly happening is super important. So I like that suggestion in terms of that environment. So Helen, there are also going to be people here that their organization's just not able to invest in that way. And so, and I think you said you have a chapter on this as well, some tips where there might be an individual who's just seeking mentorship and might just informally ask somebody in their organization or informally ask somebody outside of their organization. What are your tips for that? Yeah, and it's so funny because it sounds almost too simple because people, they probably already do this, but this part of the book, I actually, when I was interviewing people, that was one of the questions I asked, like, how do, what's the advice you'd give to someone who's looking for a mentor because they don't have a program or they just, you know, they want to learn more or they're not comfortable with someone in their organization, they'd rather, you know. Yeah. If they're not comfortable with someone in their organization, I'd say maybe it's time to leave that organization or they need help from people like us. Yeah. But yeah, so I was looking at the themes and some of the, some of the answers and a lot of it is, you know, again, even for that it goes back to what's the why for yourself? What is it you're looking for? What is it? What's your goal? Or what's your, what is it you want to achieve? Because the first thing that someone's going to ask you if you approach them is, well, what, what do you, you know, what is it you want to work on? Yeah. And so you need to be prepared for that. So know your why. And then as you're looking on social medias everywhere these days, well, look how we met. Yeah. So you know, finding that person that has done what you've, you know, what you're hoping to do, you know, is that in your industry or if it's something completely different and it's a career change and you say, hey, I want to go, go start up a food product company. And here I am in hr. Like how the heck do I do this? Right? So you see, you know, you start to follow people. I wouldn't recommend going to someone right away without kind of building that connection. Right. And like if you're following their work, like comment why you like the article they wrote, just don't put a, like or something kind of try to build a rep. Relationship networking as you know. So some of those events, like if you are in the HR industry, the hrpa, their strategy, strategic capability, network, there's so many forums like for the entrepreneur space. There's tons of women, women groups as you know, but you know, there's ways to find and then your friends or fam. Family or a connection may have a recommendation. But I think you really want to go into it too, knowing what you'd like to like. And also the reciprocity I think isn't. It is important. Even though I believe most mentors that love mentoring will give freely regardless. They don't want to be over givers. They don't want to be taken advantage of either though. So it just helps with the conversation. And you'd be surprised like a lot of people found mentors that way. Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of times when people, when I've been approached about being a mentor or when I've talked to other people who have been approached, they say, but they were very flattered. Like they felt honored that somebody was reaching out to them in that way. And I think it's also important that you, what you acknowledge there as well is that they need to just like everyone, as you see me saying on this podcast, around holding boundaries. And they only have a certain amount of time in their world. So also recognizing if one person says it is a no and they don't have the capacity at this point, there could be somebody else that could also have capacity. So just recognizing that, don't see that as rejection and it's not personal, but I'm proud of that person because they're actually holding boundaries and can't say yes to everybody. And I like what you said around those tips. I think you need to set yourself up for success before you even start having a conversation, which is really getting clarity around, well, why do I want a mentor and where am I going and what's going to serve me next? Because in different seasons, a different kind of mentor might be the best person for you. Right. And, and I think the clearer you are then the more if you're thinking about networking, then you're telling other people what you're looking for. And then you have. It's so funny. And I've heard people that this has happened where they say, well, I'd really love this. And then that person and they say, oh my gosh, I have the perfect person for you. You should talk to this person because you've been that that mentee has been so clear about what they're looking for. I think we find this in the job market as well. Like the more you can help people have help you, the clear you are around. I need this type of thing, then they are. It's easier for them to be able to think through all the different people they know. Oh, this person, I think feels very suited to what you're asking for. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, touching on that, again, don't be afraid to ask because again, the worst thing is no. And there might be someone else that's, you know, maybe more suited or even better or has a recommendation. You know, we only have so much time. But, and I, I think that's the other thing, is that understanding what it is. Right. It is, you know, someone that cares enough to want to help you or see you succeed. Right. And that's a certain kind of person. And then there are some that they just don't have the capacity. Right. So it's okay. I, I like that because I think that asking is probably one of the hardest parts. Right. I think people are afraid, you know, young and the newer generations. As much as, you know, people like to put labels on everybody and, and lump them all into the same thing. I think every, you know, I think a lot of generations go through the same thing. It's like, okay, if I, if I do want to do something different, how do I go about it? And it's so funny because I just remembered my nephew, I just saw my nephew and he was having a few friends over and I met them and we were talking a little bit about their careers and one of them was asking, how do I go about, like, I really do want to learn more about other, other career paths. Yeah. And I'm afraid I can't really go to my manager because then he's thinking, I'm not going to be invested in this role. Right. So that's a kind of a hard dynamic. But that's why I said, well, then, then it's approaching people outside the organization to just have some informational meetings and have some coffee chats and again, going in with it, that I'm very curious about this aspect of the industry. Yeah. You know, I want to move. I have, you know, two years experience in this role, but I, I want to move, you know, branch out into another area. And so it's a different approach than just saying, hey, let's connect or no message on LinkedIn with your request. Like, yeah, yeah, at least be very thoughtful about it. Yeah. Cloud and chat, GPT. Exactly. It doesn't have to be convoluted. It doesn't have to be like this huge project. It's just being a little bit, taking a little bit of time and being intentional and thoughtful around how you approach that person. If it's in writing and even more so Also, if you're doing it verbally and, and just recognizing, like we would. I think, Helen, I would both say, like, you're not being rejected, you're being redirected if that person's not the right person. And that's okay. It's asking somebody else and recognizing that not everybody, for a variety of reasons, is, Is able to be a mentor. But just because that person doesn't, that first person you asked, I don't want that to feel like, forget it. You know, I asked that person, they want, well, there could be somebody else that would be so happy because I think that's what can happen as well. Somebody might ask one person and doesn't have a very good experience and they just forget about it and then don't try again. And that's such a missed opportunity because again, I'm. I'm so grateful for all of those people who gave it, that instilled so much wisdom over the years. Yeah, it's a wonderful thing. Yeah, for sure. Sure. So, Helen, I knew this conversation. We could talk forever, especially around mentoring is such a great topic. People are going to get the book and be able to, to learn about this in more detail. But I always like to give my guests an opportunity to leave a final thought. What's most front and center for you? Oh, well, I'm going to hold up the book for a second because this is most front and center. Yes. I really believe that mentorship is such an amazing way to connect with other people. And as a mentor, I have grown so much. And really, one of the things I didn't even touch on this, but it's in the title name is how to Mentor with Heart and Start a Ripple effect. And I think the more that we can open up, the more possibilities that come. And so my wish is that everyone has a mentor in their corner and experiences that, that and that they learn and grow together and then it causes that ripple effect. I. I have been so blessed, too, to have some mentors and to mentor several mentees, and I'm always growing and learning. So let's just keep spreading it. Yeah, beautiful. And Helen, where can people learn more about you and the work that you're doing? So I'm on LinkedIn, Helen Patterson. I'm. My website is lifeworkswell ca. And on Instagram as well. @lifeworkswell ca. I'm not on X as much anymore. Or formerly known as Twitter. Yeah, I know we met there, but yeah, I don't think I've been on ACT in three years. Whenever it became X is probably when I stopped being on Twitter. Yeah, that's, that's the best places to reach out. And yeah, the. There's more there. I'm excited to see Spread the word and I just. Thank you. It was such a wonderful journey we've had together to, to grow in life and work. I consider you a mentor. Sometimes we don't even realize we have organic mentors that are everyday mentors. And yeah, the, oh, the one last thing, 1 million mentor moments is an initiative I started. You'll find that on the website as well because it can just be one conversation. Yeah. And so if we can spread it that way as well and share your stories, you, you might not even realize you had one conversation. And actually you, you both gained something or you learn something and that's mentorship in motion. So, yeah, I think it's great. I hope I get to see you in person soon. Yes, I hope so too, Helen. And thank you so much for being here today and, and sharing all of your wisdom and, and it's obvious the passion that you have around this and I suggest everybody get up the book. All of that will be in the show notes. And for everyone, if this episode resonated with you, please make sure you share this with other leaders. There might be other HR leaders that you want to get them thinking about mentoring, share that with them. But I would say anyone, like anyone who wants to be able to really leverage this more in their life and maybe someone thinking about wanting to go get mentorship or someone's thinking about they want to go mentor others. So, so this is a great episode to share with them. And if you're interested in learning more about the ways that I work with organizations, whether that's leadership development, one on one executive coaching or transformative keynotes, you can learn more@Kristen Harcourt.com wherever you are. Tuning in to tuning in from in the world. We're saying good morning, good afternoon, good evening, sending tons of love. Bye bye. Thank you.