Scaling Culture Without Losing Humanity with Amanda Small

Speaker A: Who do you want to be as a leader? What are the blind spots you're missing? If you had a magic wand and you could change anything about your workplace, what would you do with it? These are the kinds of questions we explore on Inspirational Leadership. I'm your host, Kristen Harcourt. I'm, um, a keynote speaker, emotional intelligence coach and leadership trainer who partners with executives and emerging leaders who want to achieve extraordinary results for themselves and their organizations. You're in the right place if you're ready to cultivate the self awareness to be the leader you were born to be. Let's go on this journey together. Welcome to Inspirational Leadership. I'm your host, Kristin Harcourt. And as always, we have an amazing, amazing guest. I can't wait for you to get to know her. Today we are talking with Amanda Small, who is a people and culture executive who helps organizations scale without losing what matters, make what, what makes them human. With over a decade of experience in high growth tech and fintech, she partners with leaders to align culture, systems and strategy during pivotal moments of change. As VP of people and culture at Nest wealth, she's helping grow the company into a global organization of over 800 employees and has led transformations across companies like Canada, helps in Pixen Jibstream. She's also held global leadership roles across Canada, the US and Europe. Welcome to the show, Amanda. Thank you.

Speaker B: What a nice introduction.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Uh, so happy to be here.

Speaker A: So excited for this conversation and I think you just bring a wealth of knowledge in so much beautiful, diverse areas and I think that's going to be actually a wonderful place to start because I think your journey is unique and um, it's wonderful. I love the uniqueness that got you into the work that you're doing that brought you into people and culture. So tell us a little bit more about your story and you get to start wherever you are. If we want to start at like Amanda, three year old Amanda, you could start later on, wherever you want.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I won't start that early, Many, many decades ago. But um, yeah, I think one of the most interesting things about kind of how I arrived here is that I started off really going down the art and creative path. So I was professionally trained as an artist and I really like to share, particularly in companies now when we're talking with, with employees, with humans about what does the future look like. You know, what I really like to coach for is that we're always building experience and skills that are transferable and I think sometimes we get a little, I don't know, my Generation for sure, got pretty locked into. You know, you go down, you go to school, you get a career path, you do this thing forever and you really, really hone your craft. And so yeah, I went all the way through a terminal degree in fine arts. I went to school for 10 years in fine arts. And I, uh, was a professor, um, I was, you know, a studio assistant. And I landed kind of following graduate school, really actively pursuing an art career. I've always been. My mother recently said to me, you've always been really focused on success. And I thought, what? I'm so easygoing. And she said, you weren't easygoing. I said that you've always been really focused on success. And I thought, you know, honing my craft. This idea of honing your craft in the art world is tantamount to success. You go very deep into your practice. For me, because my focus was in installation art. I had to get good at, uh, project management essentially because I was doing large scale installations, both permanent and temporary, all over the world. I was, you know, having to coordinate and procure, um, uh, things for, you know, items for my, my installations. I had to manage a small staff who was helping me install work. And so some of those things in the moment I didn't realize were transferable skills. But later, you know, fast forward 20 years, 15 years, they very much were. But I think a really pivotal turning point for me was working at a not for profit in Denmark. I went there as an emerging artist. I was very, very focused on my art career. I wanted to be in the biggest shows and in all the publications. And I wanted to have permanent, you know, installations in places and museums and things like that. So very, very focused. And the executive director said to me at the end of my residency there, you're a strange mix of creative and uptight again, sort of the pride's like, uptight focus on success. Who is this? I'm the free spirited artist, you know, like that's not true, but it is true. My, my girlfriends often refer to me as the type a hippie. So you can see a theme here where I do have, huh, kind of an open, very creative, very curious approach to pretty much everything. And I am a bit operational. I can be quite, I like, or to organize chaos, I think, you know, kind of coming in and being able to very quickly see, oh, things are falling down in these areas. And how I can help is something that I think partly have naturally. But also artists are very, very attuned. They're very aware of aesthetics, of how things should Be right, like when they, when they come into a space. And I think that includes relationally, they very quickly can kind of see that something's not right. And I can see how I could bring some, um, you know, something better to that, I could improve that or I could bring a new lens to that. And I don't think artists are often shared with about that. I don't think very many people interact with artists or creatives on a day to day basis to sort of see like, oh, wow, they actually have this kind of innate skill or craft that they've honed through their practice to do that. But this particular Ed saw that in me and gave me a job. So essentially I was a program manager for the institution and I managed a staff of six. I built new lines of revenue, I was recruiting, I was definitely in charge of accounts payable, procurement, I mean, you name it. Anything having to do with operations, I was doing. And the whole time being like, I have no idea how to do this, but I think part of the fun of it was a being trusted. So we'll talk a bit about that. I'm sure, you know, people when they are trusted to do really well and also trusted enough to make mistakes and learn from them, actually are some of the greatest hires you'll ever make. Because you don't need to know. No one can know everything about people and culture, hr, employment, law, you name it. You can't know everything and you can't be an expert at everything. But I think if you are trusted and you're very curious and you're a person who, you know, is kind of excited about what can I bring to the table to improve this or make it better? Those three things really just create an environment for success, uh, pretty often, I think. And so those were a great four years and that really launched me into hr. But I worked with, interestingly, I worked with so many, you know, famous, well known artists who, if I'm honest, they are visionary, they are passionate. Um, they can be difficult. Yes, because they're very, very, very focused on success, for sure, but also particular. Yeah, ah, their vision is so clear in the mind. And I would say the CEOs and founders that I've worked with are very, very similar. The profile for me, it was not a hard leap to make at all. In fact, I was like, oh, I know you, Ah, I've worked with you for years. Um, in terms of. So that was also just an interesting translation of kind of coming from, you know, a very different world. The not for profit art space is definitely its own, its own thing. But you know, kind of coming into the tech space, I, I already knew a little bit who I was dealing with. M and engineers, even themselves. I remember@ uh, jibestream saying, oh, the engineers are like artists. They spend a ton of time honing their craft. They're very, very into their craft and they spend hours and hours researching new ways to do whatever their thing is. If it's back in front of our specific coding language. They want to know all the new innovative things coming. And that's very much how the artists were. They would be like, oh, I, there's this new technique coming out in XYZ and you know, deep researchers that way, kind of forever learners that way. So again, I just found that so much of that really translated over into where I find myself today.

Speaker A: I mean, I love when I first heard your story and you said that because it makes so much sense, um, in terms of all of those transferable skills and why you would bring. I mean I get how some people even describe you as a unicorn and that you bring this unique set with it that I would say is to any field is um, is beautiful, right? Because you're bringing in both outside in of the creativity and innovation and ways to be able to look at it from that lens, but then also being able to bring in the operational and being focused and action oriented. But then also with so much of your background, you got that opportunity to embrace and be able to get exposures for all the different areas of the business, which I always say is such a huge, ah, important piece of eight people and culture. HR is because you need to understand all the uh, different elements of the business and be able to then help to make decisions and guide and um, offer a light of guidance in those different directions. And I think I'm so glad people listening. I'm hoping whether you're the CEO, whether you're an HR leader, whether you're a people manager, you're hearing this and you recognize that uh, maybe sometimes you're keeping yourself in a box for yourself. That could be you when you're starting to think about what you want to do or when you're thinking about hiring and bringing other people in where you might be limiting yourself, thinking that it has to be this particular linear line and it had to look like a specific experience and pathway that got that person to there. I think it's such a disservice when we limit ourselves in that way. And you know, as I'm reflecting, as you're even sharing this Right now, Amanda, I can think about, uh, leaders who I have coached too, where, you know, they started off, you know, people manager or maybe finance and engineering, but then eventually ended up being the CEO or they moved completely to somewhere that was very technical. Next thing you, you know, they're doing marketing. It's like. But they. They had also limited themselves in terms of who they believe themselves to be. And I, I love your example of engineers, too, because I. I work with a lot of engineers and. And linear thinkers. And then we can be so, so quick to box them in. Just the linear thinker when they're so creative.

Speaker B: Creative.

Speaker A: And we're all creative in different ways. I think that I always try to remind people that some people just think, well, I'm not an artist. And there's this one version of what it means to be creative.

Speaker B: You know, as an art student, we used to always laugh because people would say to me, and when I would say, oh, I'm an artist. I'm a practicing professional artist, oh, my gosh, are you such a good drawer? Yeah, I'm the worst. I am not good in 2D at all. I never spoke. It's. Again, I never honed my skills, my craft, or actually my interest in that M. And so I, you know, I'll sketch stuff out for an installation, but I'd always laugh and be like, no, like, we do that. We think there's this. Yeah. Very specific path or trajectory or skills that are required to be, quote, good at something. And I think we forget just how big the curiosity piece and the ability to internalize and utilize curiosity as a learning tool, like, uh, self learning and being really like, whoa, I think I can integrate. This is such a skill. Just that alone is actually the skill more than do I know how to do marketing.

Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Because that, uh, curiosity can lead you in so many beautiful ways. Curiosity around. I mean, now there's so many different ways where you can just learn something and teach yourself very quickly that you don't understand. But then curiosity around understanding others, understanding those different personality, understanding their drivers and their unique operating systems and their way of seeing the world. And then also curious where there might be times where you're. You're m. This shows up so much with emotional intelligence too. Right. Sometimes the curiosity is like, huh, huh? What's going on with me right now? Why am I feeling so judgy? Or why am I feeling so impatient or frustrated or wanting to look different? Right. Why am I feeling so triggered or activated is something that shows up so, so often and I think that, um, the more we can bring in that curiosity into everything is. Is incredibly powerful. So when you start to think. Because I. I think you also have a unique lens when you think about culture and, and what's possible with culture and being able to bring those different elements in it. I definitely want to talk about. You had alluded a little bit to the trust. I want to bring that trust piece in as well. Um, but when you start to just even think from a culture perspective, just before we start recording, we're even talking about meetings and when it makes sense to have meetings and when it's not, doesn't make sense to have meetings. But let's take it right to the beginning and foundationally. And again, whether it's an HR leader or whether this is a people manager just wanting to be part of creating this really positive culture. What do you think are those key elements that we really need to be thinking about when we want to create? What I like to describe as you use the words human, but really a thriving positive culture.

Speaker B: Yeah, listen, I describe. Uh, other people who know me will know I've used this description before, but I think it's really important. And for me, it really helps me visualize what I think culture is or does, let's say. But culture is already always there. I don't build culture. I don't do culture. It's a collective agreement between the company, the leaders, and the employees. I mean, we're all in it. And whether it's intentional or unintentional, it's being kind of built and reinforced all the time. So when I think about that being this collective agreement between all of us, then I think we can start saying, what are the parts we want to intentionally grow or build or breathe air into? And as, uh, we build those things intentionally, I think we kind of start to push out some of the unintentional parts of our culture that are there. So my example would be, I think. I think trust is really important part of trust. And I think what builds an excellent culture, always, I have never seen this fail, but I'm open to being challenged on it, is transparency. We miss the mark so much because as human beings, we're a bit protective. A B. We often think our teams, our employees, even our leaders can't hold. They don't have the capacity to hold, uh, information that might be challenging, that change that might be challenging. I mean, don't get me started on change management. And the reason change management often fails, again, is I think transparency is missing and communicating in a Way that really has people. The first time you say anything, even something people like, yeah, they get 15 of it, right? Because our emotions are going, our energy is going, we're feeling one way or another. To your point, you just said, who knows, you might be reacting on the inside, positively, negatively, you know, you might be resisting, you might be accepting. But what we know is the information is in, the capacity isn't there yet to really hold what is it that we're actually talking about. And so I believe that communication and transparency are just like at uh, the top, top, top. And that uh, part of that is a practice. It's not we do in all hands. It's not we always send out a team's message or a slack message. It's when we are really supporting and engaging our managers. Are they clear enough? Have I spent enough time with them? Um, and our leaders at top level leaders really spent time with them, helping to have them let the communication land. It has to be. It doesn't mean you agree. It means that it's landed. It's really landed inside. And all of your questions and your resistance and your uh, noise has quieted down and you're like, I get it, I'm like here with you. And then you can go out and talk to your team about it. And then what I think you hope is your employees, you also spend enough time that it's landed, they really understand it. And it's never once. And I'll tell you something else, it's never an email. Yes, it's, that's not how it happens. And so I think one thing that really helps, you know, when you're, I would say rebuilding or like re engaging your culture is start to build in skip down meetings where you're having leaders from a level up, uh, meeting with people, you know, beneath their managers and really sharing what they're finding out with managers, having those hard and fruitful and mentoring conversations. Yes, I know we don't like to tell people when something has come up that doesn't work. But the kindest, warmest, most genuine thing you can do is actually give people meaningful feedback about the way they work, the way they communicate. Right. Like meaningful feedback is just, just I guess my third, my third piece is like I really, I think we, but it ties into communication. But I think we, we go so quickly across those things like, well like I showed the slide or you know, I sent the email.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And we never really know then has it landed. And one thing that happened at Nest that I think I still hear about in Exit interviews. I really appreciate it. Is that, yeah, the CEO at that time, he. He, you know, had an amazing exit. So good for him. But at that time, he was very good at articulating his vision. Like, you could put him in front of anyone. And it was so dynamic and so fun and so bright and just like, here's where we're going. But the employees often were like, you know, they're taking it in, but they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And he would say in every executive team meeting, it's like, they didn't hear what saying. And I'm m. Like, no, they absolutely heard 10%. That's as much as they can let in. So then my job was to really coach and mentor the managers and our executive team to make sure that they were able to have conversations with leaders that are going to really land because the executive team is going to evangelize as best they can. But it's really your managers who are boots on the ground, leading your company day to day, leading those employees is your managers. It's not your leadership team. And so they have to really have the opportunity to understand it. The opportunity to disagree and commit. The opportunity to say, like, I actually really don't think that's going to work. And to have an honest conversation about, yeah, it might not. But, like, we're here for you and we're gonna feel together, but, like, we've got to be clearly aligned in terms of what we're doing together. And it doesn't mean you believe it. It doesn't mean. And I can't. I wouldn't say you. Your values do have to be at least somewhat aligned. But, uh, in terms of the amount of decisions that move forward in a company that I'm like, I. I don't think I would do that. Right. You have to build some muscle around that. And to be able to kind of, um, own that and articulate that, be really genuine and transparent about that, I think has built the greatest cultures. Right. Because it's not rewards and recognition, although that does help. But it's not, you know, it's not these things that we're like, oh, I think if we have an R R program or pizza lunches or, uh, yeah. Events, if we have more socials, I'm like, it's not. People are. We're very simple and we're not. We're very genuine. We actually want to understand where are we going, how are we going to get there? And are we going to go together? Like, uh, are we going to be on the bus together.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I sometimes use the analogy in a great culture. You can say, you know what, we're all going to Mexico and everyone, we're going to Mexico. And then we all get on the bus and we're like, how do we, how, um, do we actually get to Mexico? And that's a created journey. That's in real time created usually quarter by quarter or year by year. Hopefully you have some goals, but the journey isn't like, hey, we're driving on one highway right to Mexico together. We're gonna meander, we're gonna veer and we're. That's a created, lived journey that m. We've gotta be able to talk about and kind of get people. Otherwise people are going to be jumping off the bus, getting off at pit stops and never getting back on. And you know, it really can create, and I think it can create a lot of chaos, not allowing for the deepening of people's understanding, understanding and connection to what we're doing and when yet that chaos, I call it, the horses are restless. You know, when you walk in and you're like, the horses are restless. Like we, the barn is, it's vibrating. Yeah. And we need to give them, um, something to ground into. I think we kind of, that, that can be a gap sometimes. And I think in the best cultures, we've really, really almost like slowed ourselves down to be a lot more intentional in those ways and give people a lot more information and not words, but understanding. Like really helping them be part of the business, be part of the plan.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Even if they're like, ugh, uh, this seems crazy. You know, we have to be like, yeah, it might be, you know, but how do we, how do we give you legs? Kind of in that space and in that, you know, ambiguity. Just helping.

Speaker A: I mean, so many important things you said there. I think that I agree completely around the communication piece. Like, I think so often organizations forget that they are taking it all in and processing it and requires different stages. I think I like what you were saying about the bus and being co created and it's constantly evolving because I think what we know clearly now and startup environments have always been like this, but now it's not just about startups. It's like all organizations now. Things are just moving so quickly. It's so fluid. It's so you have to be agile because. And sometimes people will get upset with the leaders. Like, well, you just said this last week and you're not now. You're doing this this week and there can be a perception, which back in the day it was that there was this, um, that they were indecisive. But that's quite often not what's happening right now. It's that the information is changing so quickly and so then they need to pivot. But they are communicating and sometimes the individual getting communicated to are feeling like, well, how can that be? It was just this over there. So I think it's also having some compassion around, you know, how quickly things are moving for employees that are hearing that. And just because I hear that a lot from the employees and sometimes the perception that the leader is, is holding things back or moving all around. That is the case sometimes. But I also acknowledge that's not always the case.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I think what you're saying around the transparency is, um, is super critical. I love that you also said that HR doesn't own culture because I can't tell you how many times it's like, well, HR owns culture. I'm like, every single, every single human and every single leader and every single person every day is living and breathing that culture. Um, right.

Speaker B: And we. And we.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Especially if a CEO or an executive says to me, will you own culture? I'm like, I think we.

Speaker A: Yes, we.

Speaker B: I certainly, if I, if I'm running the company.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Maybe I say I own it. But you know, kind of in that sense of like total ultimate accountability for how it's going. Yes, yes. I think, I think HR can be, or people in culture can be a really pivotal player there. Like, how is it going? Yeah, but uh, it's not my, I don't do it. No.

Speaker A: In the day to day, you know,

Speaker B: we need, we absolutely have to be. Yeah. Has to be co created. And I think we all have to be, especially at the executive level, aligned. Like, what does good look like? What does it really look like? Yeah. And what matters to us? Because, uh, because for some people, I don't know why, but meeting hygiene doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And that's okay. But for others, you know, really having time, efficiency and you know, I think it comes back to values creation. When you're creating values.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Those values, nobody should ever have to remember them. They're lived. Yeah, they're lived. Like we don't. If we're like, oh, what are our values? What was the collaboration? You know, we've already lost.

Speaker A: What am I supposed to be going out there and saying, oh yeah, it's like we've lost. It's ingrained. It's, it's it's embedded. It's something that's embodied when it comes to. And. And people have heard me have many conversations on this podcast around values and what it looks like to live and breathe them and how it's, um, not good when we talk about the values and then especially from the top across the organization when those behaviors associated with those values are not being lived and breathed every day. Something that's showing up for me in this, in this moment, Amanda. And I'm curious your thoughts on this and. Because it's something that I see in a lot of organizations and I see it all actually at all levels of leadership, um, in terms of, you know, how do we best address this? And it's where the individuals in the organization at all levels are really under resourced, um, you know, to the point where they're bordering on burnout. And I see this even more with high performers who have a really big container and they're used to saying, yes, they're good at multitasking and having lots of different things on the go. But eventually this container starts to get to the point where it's overflowing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then we have what's going on right now in a lot of organizations where there's downsizing happening. So not only was that person already under resourced, now they've actually lost people. However, they are still being asked to, uh, to deliver on priorities, sometimes more. And so of course I'm over here and wanted to say to the leader, do we see how there is a disconnect here? You know, the leader that's leading down, like, and, and then they're also getting frustrated, like, oh, people are not focused and they're getting stressed and they're non. Like, well, you know, maybe we need to get at the root what's happening here. And so, and I see this in a lot of companies, I have to say, from a coaching perspective, this shows up a lot.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Amanda.

Speaker B: Uh, I mean, as a person who has been through multiple acquisitions and often following that acquisition, it's like, oh, we don't need gna cut it, your team gone, and you'll be a, uh, standalone until we rebuild your team again. Or I'm not really sure. There's always this sort of cost cutting exercise, cost balancing exercise. And so that's happened to me, myself. And also I have seen it. And I think where I really try to go in and support support at the executive level is really understanding the high importance, high urgency items I think we put everything in that bucket. We put it all in there. I can even sometimes now, uh, I think it's my age. I don't know what has happened, but when I hear the notification on, on my team's go, yeah, I have like a Pavlov's dog response, but it's a little bit stressy where I'm like, there's something in there. And I was never like that. I, uh, went through all of my 30s and a good portion of my 40s not doing that. And something has changed where I will react. And so I was asking the team, you know, I'm going to turn off my notifications. I really, I am trying my best, you know, uh, to do what I need to do. Are you all feeling that? And they're all like, absolutely. So I think there's a couple things in there when there's been a big change. Either you've raised around or you've gone through an acquisition, or maybe you've downsized, you've lost, you know, you've lost revenue streams and you actually need to do a restructure reduction force. Okay. People are, uh, at, uh, high alert, their nervous systems are high. And when we're reacting that way, when we're not sure, I think we ourselves put everything into the high urgency, high importance bucket. And the greatest gift we can be as leaders, but also give to our company and our employees is to be very clear on the three things we can get done that year. I don't actually think there's more than three people will give you seven, 10, I don't even know. Yeah, we aren't built for that. If we want to do something well, we actually have to be able to cut away very quickly. The things that are. Yeah, we'd like to get them done. We will call them high importance or important. But are they the most important and the most urgent so that we win? And that conversation, when I come in with that conversation, everyone on the team will say, well, uh, yes, everything's super urgent and you just have to cut it away, cut it away, cut it away. And I think there is lots of different modalities you can use to do that. But one thing I have found that has been really helpful is to first find out from my executives, you know, particularly the CEO.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, really tell me in 18 months you can only get three things done. The whole company, what are they? Like, what are they really? What's keeping you up at night? And like, don't give me some CEO polished answer. I want to Know when you wake up at 3:00am um, what's right there for you? And sometimes it's my family. I'm going through this thing. Right. Okay. Why is it that you're worrying about? Well, actually, because the business isn't doing well and I've really, like, uh, you know, there's stuff in there. And so we have to get down to that root of like, what are we really, really got to get done. And then we have to be surgical.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: About not letting stuff get in. Yes. We want to do a million things. We. I love doing all the things in a year. I like getting to the end of the year and being like, what are we even going to do next year? Knocked it all out. But that's just because ticking off the box we know is a dopamine hit. Getting a gold star is like, oh my gosh. And it's cultural. And so we have to be really authentic about. First of all, we aren't unproductive because we can't do everything. We're actually human. We're just literally human. And then we need to define what does good look like. Tell me, like, what is it to the CEO? And then we got to push that out into the team revenue. What does good look like? We know these are the top three. Absolutely. Got to get done for this company to be successful. It might not even be in a year. Maybe it's a two or three year plan, whatever.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Tell me what you got to do that no matter come hell or high water, this happens. Okay. You know, and I think with a good strategy and a good strategist at the table who can also be, you know, the person to say no as much as they say yes is truly a gift and a skill. I think that's probably one of the best leadership skills is to be able to cut away the noise, to take the risky bet of, uh. I'm betting on these three things and people don't want to do that. We leaders, I'm sure you, you've met them as well. They want to cast the net wide and fish with a net. But there does come a time when you got to fish with a pole and you got to choose the pole based on the fish you want to catch.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that's it. It. I hold a lot of space for that because I think it is scary. I think it is like, am m I going to really mess up this thing? I've invested probably my entire life saving my investors money. You know, you're putting it all on the line. And so I think leaders and founders need to really, you know, we need to have a lot of space for that, like, really helping them get down to what that is. If they're great at it and they know what that is, then I think where we have to coach the whole team around is like, really making sure you don't throw everything into the. It has to get done, because it really can't. Now, I think the other thing we don't do well, I myself am guilty of this is really, really being able to define done.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: No, uh, product. Product people are very good at this. Well, you know what? Even they have trouble.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But what is done when we say it's done, you know how much in contracting, enterprise contracting, you get into this real shitstorm. I'm sorry, I don't know if I can say that. But you know where everyone's definition of done was a little bit different? Uh, the client said done, we said done, products are done, and we're actually in three different places.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And a good project manager will try to catch that. Right. But that's really a skill as well, that when we do it well, when we plan our year, or I like to even plan to two and a half years. I think three years is too long for some reason, but too much changes over that time. But, yeah, when we can really get good at saying, okay, in two years, this is it. Let's work, like, reverse engineer it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: We all have to know two things. What does good look like at the end and what is done when we're done. What does done mean? So that no one can say, oh, but I thought when you said this would be done, it meant this. But we're. And I think being surgical about that is a great kindness. And, uh, you'll hear me say this a lot. I actually think that, you know, we talk about some of these things. Like, they're hard, but it's such a kindness. It's such a gift. The authenticity of being with people and allowing for us to, like, come together in a. In a deep way. And it is hard. I mean, we all fight for our perspectives and, like, whatever, but it's a. It's a huge gift to a team if you're a, uh, founder or CEO, who can do that. And I also think that's what I've loved most about being a people and culture person is, like, at the end of the day, one of my values is how can we go together? Like, I want us all to go and win, like, together. We're not pulling each other we're like rooting for each other. I was a cheerleader in high school. I always think about that. Yeah, maybe it was like ingrained in me to just be like, uh, I'm not even. I would root for both teams. I was just saying, so excited, you know, we gotta go, we gotta get there. And I think that's a really, um, you know, it's a really critical part of being able to. It's, it is cultural, but it's also, um, it's like building that deep vein of trust where we're like, I understand exactly where you're going.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: I know when you don't get it done. I already know why. Because I've like been with you.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Behaviors. Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm witnessing it and I understand.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Surprised. And we're not hiding anything. And like, we're just. And when leaders act that way, it mirrors right out. It cascades right out into the organization. So when they're that way with each other, they're like that with their teams, their leaders, and then their managers are that way with their teams. And I think you really see, you know, that cascading effect very quickly. Like it doesn't. And it's not a program. It's not. You know, sometimes people are like, how would you deploy performance management? And I'm like, uh, like that's the least of our worries. Excellent performance will happen. It does need to be tracked. I do, I do believe it needs to be tracked. But excellent performance lives just like culture lives when we're absolutely practicing it at the highest level. Like we're, we're there, um, and we're not like, are you accountable? We're, we're actually committed to each other's accountabilities. Doesn't mean that we hold the bag for it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But we're like committed to its greatness.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that I think the more we can practice how we want things to be at, uh, the very top with each other. I actually think, you know, the culture, it works itself out for the most part. And then you get to decide, oh, you know, maybe we keep hearing learning and development or career progression. That seems to be one that kind of always comes up as like.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It's a bit lukewarm. Um, yeah. If we're being great about how we're getting stuff done together, if we're like really caring about what happens to each other's outcomes into the business, like we're, we're attuned and we're aware, I think then it's easy to be like, you know what we do know, we do know where our team has gaps, where our bench strength isn't there. Let's get them trained up. Let's give them these opportunities. Let's. We can see on our trip to Mexico, we're gonna have a little detour in Arizona. And we know somebody would love to learn to golf in Arizona. So let's have them golf. You know, just kind of being, uh, like, you know, a practitioner that way, I think is. Yeah. Probably one of my favorite parts about people.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. So many rich things in what you just said there. Like, I think it's a reminder around, of course, we want to have these teams all working together. I do believe it starts at the top in terms of that alignment. I also think that everyone can relate to what you just said about the. The being able to say, like, these are my top three priorities. Like, of course at the top, but then also within your data to day, and then being conscious of the dopamine hits, because sometimes people get the dopamine hits from the emails and addressing the emails in real time, but that's not actually what's the priority. And then that distracts.

Speaker B: And yeah.

Speaker A: So I. There's been a lot of times where I've got. Worked with leaders and I, we take audits, look at what they're doing on a weekly, daily basis, and then they realize, oh, my gosh, like, look at how much percentage on a daily basis is in these other areas that are not actually actions that are aligned with my top priorities. But it requires discernment, it requires courage, it requires confidence, it requires, um, saying no to things in service of saying yes to the right things. And, you know, that's building a muscle. Right. I just want to acknowledge anybody who's listening, like baby steps in the right direction. You don't have to go from A to Z tomorrow. It's just like, okay, what does it look like to start to be able to be paying a little bit more attention to. Are you really focused on those top priorities? Because you might notice that some of those, um, those extra things that you're spending time on are not actually the right things to be spending time on and creating stress.

Speaker B: And it's worth, it's worth an honest conversation with your upline. Yeah. You know, if we can be a bit vulnerable to, say, when you send me a slack or teams message about something you, you know, that might be a priority for them that they're working on.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: I drop what I'm doing to address that. I want to check in with you about that. Like here's what I have on my list as the uh, most important things. Can we, can we connect on that? And there's also great tools that help you you know, do have those kind of weekly check ins on like the most important things. But even if you are practicing at a company where you have no, no funding for tools, I mean it does happen. You're like still in a spreadsheet or a template or something, uh, it's really worth in your monthly or your you know, bimonthly sinks just to say like just put it out there. Like is this really. And I, I believe that most leaders, not all, but most will one really appreciate that authenticity. And also it's an opportunity to manage up. You know, I think our employees don't realize mhm. Inner managers don't realize how much authenticity manages up because it does. And it's not because you're doing anything to show it's like you're being, you're not doing, you're being, you're being the kind of person that you want, that you want to be able to lead like and that I can't tell you how many leaders have told me, oh my gosh, my, myself included, I have had incredible team members who I just from the get go I trusted and when they would ask uh, when they would bring to me really hard things that I was doing, I was being managed up. Sometimes you can't, it's absolutely unintentional. Like we're not even of course related to it. And so that opportunity, I think. Did you say discernment? Like m being able to notice and have uh, the ability to go in and say I'm seeing something I'm doing kind of with you or a way of being with you. I want to, I want to check, I want to check in on it is really an incredible skill.

Speaker A: Huge.

Speaker B: Huge.

Speaker A: I talk a lot about, I talk a lot about the managing up. It's the thing I love around 360s because you'll see sometimes. Oh wow. The different behaviors for how they're managing up, managing across and managing down. Right. And could be doing really one in one area, doing really well in one area but having a gap in another and Absolutely. Amanda, I knew that we could talk forever.

Speaker B: I know.

Speaker A: So I'm. But in interest of wrapping up today's session, I want to give you an opportunity to leave a final thought, whatever is most top of mind that you would like to leave with the audience.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, well, my very good friend in California. She's like a avid yogi practicer.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I was sharing. She's also a leader in her company and you know, we're anyway, she, we talk a lot about HR stuff and I was talking about something with her and she said, well, something my yogi said to, to all of us in a class one time was be the fertilizer. Um, it's so, it's so great. And so I would leave with everyone. Be the fertilizer.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yes. What a beautiful invitation. Um, where can people connect with you or learn more about you?

Speaker B: LinkedIn is probably the best. Ah, yeah, that's where most things are happening these days. But just thank you so much for the time having a chat. It's so lovely. You're so easy to to chat.

Speaker A: Oh, I loved this conversation. Amanda, thank you. Thanks so much for being here today and sharing all of your wealth of of knowledge and I'll have your link for people to be able to connect with you. And if you enjoyed this episode for everybody listening, please share it with someone else that you think could benefit from it. And uh, thank you so much for your reviews on Apple Podcast. Spotify helps the podcast to get in front of more leaders. And if you're looking to develop more confident, emotionally intelligent leaders in your organization or maybe you're personally ready to to grow as a leader, let's connect. I'd love to share more about my one on one coaching, transformational keynotes and ongoing leadership training wherever you are tuning in in the world today. Good morning, M good afternoon, good evening. We are sending tons of love.

Speaker B: Bye bye.