Resilient Leadership: Staying Grounded Through Change with Jay Abassi

Who do you want to be as a leader? What are the blind spots you're missing? If you had a magic wand and you could change anything about your workplace, what would you do with it? These are the kinds of questions we explore on Inspirational Leadership. I'm your host, Kristen Harcourt. I'm a keynote speaker, emotional intelligence coach and leadership trainer who partners with executives and emerging leaders who want to achieve extraordinary results for themselves and their organizations. You're in the right place if you're ready to cultivate the self awareness to be the leader you were born to be. Let's go on this journey together. Welcome to Inspirational Leadership. I'm your host, Kristen Harcourt. And as always, we have a fabulous guest. I can't wait for you to learn more about him. So, so today we're going to be speaking with Jay Abassi, who is a speaker, coach and trainer focused on mindfulness, resilience and leadership. He's worked with leaders from organizations like Google, Amazon and Wells Fargo, helping individuals and teams thrive in high performance environments. After the sudden loss of his father in 2014, Jay's work became deeply personal, driving his passion to help others overcome adversity, to shift their mindset and live with greater intention. Through his coaching and speaking, he's empowered thousands to unlock their potential and lead more meaningful, impactful lives. Welcome to the show, Jay. Thank you so much, Kristen. I'm excited to be here. I'm really excited for you to be able to share your journey and what got you to the work that you're doing in the world. When I was reading your bio and learning a bit more about your story, I think it's, it's a, it's a vulnerable story and I think a lot of people are going to be able to relate and connect to kind of those moments on their journey that are those crossroads and kind of start to be those moments where you take a step back and reflect. And so I'd be really curious if you'd be open to sharing a little bit more of your journey, your story and what got you to the work you're now doing in the world. Absolutely, Kristen. So if I take you back 15 years, I was working at a finance company that paid the bills, but there wasn't much in terms of fulfillment. I was overworked, burnt out, and I had no idea of where I was headed. I didn't have any goals, I didn't have any vision. I was 40 pounds overweight. My marriage was falling apart financially. We were in credit card debt. It was just a tough season of life. And I wasn't really aware of how much it was taking a toll on me. Then it was June 22, 2014, when my mother called me at 6am to tell me my father had a heart attack. And by the time I got to the hospital, he already passed away. And I then really woke up to my own mortality. And I was dealing with grief I never thought I'd have to deal with at that stage of life, losing a loved one. Anyone who loses a loved one, especially unexpectedly, you know how that can change everything. And it changed everything for me. So I became obsessed after that, Kristen. Obsessed with understanding how do I live a better life? How do I get more out of my life? How do I not only take care of my health, but also do something meaningful with my life? And I would wake up at 4am every day and I'd be reading books and studying. I would. During my lunch break of that finance company, I was sitting at picnic tables outside of the office and I'd be reading alone like a madman. And I went on retreats, I went to seminars, I hired coaches. I did it all. And because of that, I found methodologies that helped me to thrive through change and uncertainty and unknowns. I worked. I left that finance company, I started working for Tesla, and within a very short amount of time, I got to a position where I was running national training programs. I was thriving there. But I saw people burning out, Kristen. I saw people under pressure, I saw people not handling it well, and I knew I could help them. So when I left Tesla, that became my mission, to help leaders and cultures and environments where there's so much unexpected change, there's so much turbulence. How can you keep stay focused on the goal, perform at a high level and be able to go home to your family with a smile on your face? Beautiful. Beautiful. I'm going to want to back up and ask you some more questions so that people can understand a little bit around you. And the beginning part of your journey, when you start to realize, you know what you had a catalyst and that moment started to help you recognize that, you know, perhaps you were operating in some default patterns and now you want to take a step back and really take control and decide who you want to be and how you want to show up. But tell me about, like, when you were at that stage, because there's going to be people listening and they're going to be able to relate. But I also want. I think it's so important, and I do this a lot as a lot in my speaking and training as well, as I share, like, I might be out here and teaching this, but I'm a human just like you, and so I have struggles, and every day there's different things. So when you go back to that version of you in 2014, what did you notice about yourself in terms of how you were showing up to things? Like, where do you recognize now in terms of, okay, if I were to go back now to that person, here are some of the things I would have done differently in terms of maybe where I wasn't taking responsibility for my behavior, where I wasn't necessarily showing up the way I wanted to show up. Let's talk about that for a little bit. Yeah, I would, I would go back to tell him that the strategy that I was using at that time to deal with high pressure, high demand and change was very ineffective. So the strategy I was using, and I, I know people can relate to this because I still find that I can fall into this pattern if I'm not intentional, is that when I would feel stressed or I'd feel frustrated or anxious, I'd do one of two things. Either I would suppress it, push it down, and just say, keep going and push through, or I would distract myself, numb myself through whatever it was, TV or some other food. I was 40 pounds overweight. Food was a big one for me. Right. And all of those strategies that I were, I was using was based on, on the belief that in order for me to be resilient, what I had to do was just keep going even when it's hard. Kristen. And I think that that's oftentimes what people think resilience is. I just have to keep going even when it's hard. But that's so crazy and ridiculous that we think that it's unnatural to think that you just have to push through when it's hard. What I would tell my 15 years ago, if I go back, what I would tell my younger version of me is you have to feel whatever is coming up, acknowledge it, Acknowledge whatever you're feeling, and have a, have a response that is rooted in self compassion and kindness. That is how you build up the resilience because you work with the emotion rather than against it. And when you can do that, you could be more adaptable and be able to handle the chaos and the craziness that life constantly is offering us. Yeah. And you and I both, the first time we had a conversation, had such a passion and connection around the emotional intelligence piece and creating space to be able to, first of all, even just recognize and notice Emotions and process emotions. And I think so many people listening and emotional intelligence is a space I've played for the last 20 years. And it's so interesting because I think so many people were never given the tools to be able to even recognize like what is going on right now. Can I pause and slow down and notice that these emotions are actually really here to get your attention, to let you know something isn't congruent, right? There is something that you're not necessarily living and breathing, your values or there's something that's not in alignment. And then slowing down is where you start to get that wisdom, where you start to hear like, oh, this is what's happening for me. But it's interesting, I think I'm curious your experience with this, with working with a lot of leaders. You and I were laughing on our first conversation because I was saying how I have a lot of linear thinkers, right? So finance where you came from and engineers and PhDs and across the board, super, super, super smart, brilliant people. And they would say to me, oh, you know, that's really not applicable to me, Kristin, because I'm a very logical thinker and so when I make decisions, I'm unemotional. Like when I make my decisions, there's no emotions in it. And I said first of all, thank you so much for sharing that honestly with me. Great. So I know where we're going to start with our work because absolutely you've got emotions in there. And I guarantee you when you have high stakes sit, there's a lot of emotions happening. But not only that, I think so often people don't even, they don't recognize and that's okay. Like they haven't even learned how to tune in and notice these times where their body is having these emotional, these emotions are trying to get their attention. What are your thoughts on that? Jay? Yeah, I, I, I'm laughing a bit because I was one of those people. Very logical. I'm not. See, I know other people are really emotional and they, that's just not me. What I learned later was I was just really good at suppressing and just distracting from and it wasn't working in the long run. It was Science magazine where they reported this research that 95 of all of our decisions, all of our habits, all of our behaviors is fueled by the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind doesn't operate from language, it only operates from emotion. So even if you're not aware of it, which is often the case, your decisions, your behaviors, your habits are coming from emotion. And so if you're not able to recognize what the emotion is that's behind and fueling your decisions and actions, and you're just riding that wave, you can very easily fall into the pattern of justifying it logically. You're making sense of it all logically, intellectually, while still being fueled by the emotion. So I'm. I mean, every human being I've ever met, we are emotional creatures. That's what we are. So let's not deny that. Let's not resist that. Hey, it doesn't mean we need to be hunky dory, arm in arm, singing Kumbaya. That's not what I'm saying. We can just look at human beings as they are. And I would say, because I know that many of your listeners, leaders, executives, it's so important to be able to recognize that that's how your people operate. Even if. Even if we just take the first step of saying, okay, you're maybe you're different, all right? But most of the people that work under you are this way. They are definitely operating from emotion. So how you approach them, how you communicate with them, how you lead them has to be from a place of acknowledging their emotions. Yes. Yeah. It's such a huge piece when you start to bring in the team piece too. Right. Like, it's one of the things I talk so much around. Everyone wants to feel seen, heard, validated, to be witnessed. And so when you start to validate other people's emotional experiences, even though it might not be the same experience you're having, that's okay. We have a whole bunch of people with different operating systems. But if they feel acknowledged and validated and you're taking the time to slow down and to be able to help them, be able to process and allow them to have their experience and then through that, start to have some really powerful dialogue, it creates so much such. Such deeper connection. Absolutely, it does. And when people feel connected, then they're able. They will go through a wall for you. You know, when people feel connected to something bigger and something meaningful, they will not be held back by a bit of pressure or a bit of demand. That's how we're driven. We're driven by connection. And I often say this when I do my keynotes, which is one of the big reasons why people fall into burnout, or people fall into feeling like they just. They have to take time off, they're not able to fulfill their responsibilities is because they feel disconnected, they feel isolated. And if I feel disconnected and isolated, the reason for that is Because I don't feel heard, I don't feel understood, I don't feel I'm not being acknowledged. So leaders have to be able to do that. And again, it isn't binary, it isn't that you say, okay, well now I'm just all emotional with people and we're not performing what you're going to find. No, it's the opposite. If you do that and you still have accountability mechanisms in place and you really recognize, hey, we have work to do here and you're able to communicate that, then you have the best of both worlds. You have a human who's really connected as well as a human who, who is accountable to doing the work well. Absolutely. I think when we start to have the binary or over indexing on one, and I talk so much about to really show up as a conscious, powerful leader, it's about embracing both sides, right? To be able to have that ability to have the empathy and compassion, but then also to be able to create spaces where you are being assertive, you are being direct, you're having radical candor, you are that you're making sure that there's ownership. And people, when they want to show up and do their best work, they actually want to, to be in a situation where that leader is helping to bring out the best in them. And so having that container where those expectations are met, there are going to be some low performers that don't want that. But that's, they're, they're not in a sit, they don't want to show up. And that's about them perhaps not being in the right place, the right culture to be able to achieve what you want to achieve as well. That's, that's going to always happen. Absolutely it is. And you know, that doesn't mean that you're inhuman. It doesn't mean that you don't care about the person. I think it's on the contrary, you care deeply about them and you want them to thrive. And if they're not in a role where they can, then it's best to help them find the role that will allow for them to thrive. I mean, it happens all the time. People think that something is right for them, they go into the experience of it and it isn't the right fit. And a leader's job is, of course, you want to do your best to empower them and give them the tools to succeed and recognize if it's not the right fit, after you've given everything you've gotten, you've got, then it's how do we help this person transition to something that's a little bit better for them? Yeah, exactly. Let's talk a little bit about burnout, because I think burnout is super, super. It's always been relevant, but there's, it feels like there's another layer happening in the world right now with how quickly things are happening. I mean, we can't, we can't open up a computer, have a conversation and not hear something about AI. It feels like every single minute we just know tech is happening and moving so quickly. We also know there's a lot of things happening geopolitically and it's, it's, it's multilayered. Right. So you're not just necessarily dealing what's happening in terms of your responsibilities in your day to day as a leader, but you're also dealing with the people around you who are all having their experiences and lived experiences in the day to day. And you have deliverables that you need to be acting on while all of this is happening as well. Right. So when we start to think about burnout, and I like the example that you gave earlier as well. Right. My experience is I work with a lot of Type A there. It's just, we're going to plow through, we're going to work harder and is not sustainable. And so what would you like to see happen differently? So leaders are listening, they're recognizing either I'm getting close to burnout. I'm creating an environment where I'm seeing burnout around me as well. What are some of those tools, tips that you think are kind of first steps that we should be doing more of in organizations? Yeah. So the first thing that comes to my mind is the cell phone analogy. And I use this a lot. I'll be in front of a group and I'll ask them, you know, who here has a cell phone? Everyone of course, raises their hand. I'm like, yeah, that's like saying, who here has a head? Right? Everyone has a head. Right. Everyone has a cell phone. And I'll ask them, you know, how often do you charge your phone? And everyone's, I charge it once a day, twice a day. I say, okay, that makes sense. You know, now if you use your phone more, you know, the, you have the navigation running, you got YouTube on, you're filming some stuff. What happens to the battery? Yeah, well, it drains faster. Okay, so what do you have to do? Well, you have to, you have to charge it more. Oh, that makes sense. I mean, you use the phone more, you Got to charge it more, huh? So you know that for your cell phone, but do you do that for yourself? And the whole room always gets quiet because it's, it's so obvious to us that when we use our phone more, we increase the demand of it. We have to charge it more. It's obvious, yes. We don't think of that the same way for ourselves, Kristen. We just don't. It's completely backwards. So I would encourage leaders to say, look, people know what they're supposed to do. They don't. They know they're supposed to physically exercise. They know they should be taking care of what they eat. They know they should be getting enough sleep. I don't need to tell anybody that today. We all know it's just about committing. It's about following through and recognizing that when your demand increases. The excuse of, well, now I don't have the time is because you have the wrong mindset about all of this. You think that you go to do these things like exercise or whatever as an escape from. But that's completely backwards. No, you do those things to have the charge, just like with the cell phone, to then be able to show up as the best leader that you can be. It's a necessary part of life. You look to nature. Anything in nature, it doesn't have always 100% of the time growth. Nature doesn't work that way. Nature has its growth and then it has its time to rest, then it grows, and it go has its time to rest. The same thing applies to us. You need to commit and follow through on creating systems and being intentional about how you charge so that you can show up as the best leader that you can be. I agree completely. And I think so often there can be some things. And you, you alluded to this a little bit earlier. That gets in people's way. And you talked a little bit around the mindset, too, that gets in the way of honoring the commitment. What has been your experience, maybe even for yourself? And I'm happy to share some of my limiting beliefs once I uncovered them. Some of those subconscious beliefs. Right. That they're operating in the background that are getting that person in the way of making that commitment. What are some of the things that you think you've seen or some of the leaders that you work with are unconsciously operating underneath there? Oh, there's so many. The, the first one that came to me was, well, I just don't have the time. Right. Yeah. And, well, it's going to take so much time. Yeah, Right. It's going to take so much of my time. Yeah. Which, which it's a belief. Right. It takes so much time for me to have to do physical fitness. I remember once I had this client of mine, she was incredible, like rock star person. Like, she's, she was in the, the world of architecture and a female architecture is so different. Right. There aren't too many, but she was a rock star. And she's like, jay, I don't have time to go to the gym. I, you know, I said, okay, well walk me through what when you do go to the gym or when you did. Yeah. What would be your process? And she's like, well, I'd go, I'd do some stretching and it'd be like a 90 minute thing. And I said, okay, do you. Does it need to be 90 minutes? Right? And she's like, just that question alone stopped her in her track. Like, I guess it doesn't. I said, what makes you believe it needs to be? Well, I guess you're right. I never really thought of that. I said, well, what could you do differently? How could you incorporate. Create a system for yourself where you have some physical fitness, you get those endorphins going so that you can really show up better and not burn out. And we came up with a simpler system where it was more of a 20 minute exercise. So I think one of the things that come up for people. Yeah, it's needs to be like this. It's either I do it at this high level. Right. Or I don't do it at all. Binary, like you were saying before. And there's so much gray that people just don't even look at it. Like, for example, I listen to audiobooks. I'm not much of a reader myself. I don't have physical books. I like to listen to books. I don't sit and just listen to an audiobook for 20 minutes and do nothing else. You know, I listen to my audiobook after I drop my daughter off from school on the way home when I'm at the gym. So I'm doing other things. So there's so many ways you can create these systems for recharging that doesn't have to be this huge demand on your time. Yes. I see this one so often and I've seen that in myself as well. Like I've gotten to the point where I can be the observer and watching the mind and the story it's creating. Right. It's like it's made it out to be this big massive thing and it's like, no Mind, this is not true that you're saying right now, like, it's really not like that. And then I also, when it's doing that, I say, I know you're trying to, in your own way, protect me or help me in this moment, but I know every single time, I have never, ever gone to the gym. And then afterwards said, I really wish I hadn't done that. That was a bad use of my time. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Never. Yeah, right. Whether you touch on something. Yeah. You touched on something that just. I just talked to this. Somebody talked to my wife about this. And I was talking to a client about this, too. The idea we have about something is so different than the thing itself. Yeah. And so, yes, the person I was speaking with, I was talking about the dishes. I use the analogy of the dishes. And I said. I said, okay. He's like, oh, you know, this is pile up. And it's just, I don't do the dishes. I said, okay, well, walk me through the activity. What is it actually like? Yeah, what do you do? I pick up a day. Okay. Then what do you do? You turn the sink. Okay. And then you wash. So you do one at a time. And it's really not that big a deal, the actual washing of the dishes. Yeah, not a big deal. The idea about washing the dishes seems catastrophic. So I love the way you worded that, Chris. And it's. It's being an observer and recognizing what's real and what isn't, what's true and what's not. And so often the story we tell ourselves about committing to recharging is so much more complex and overblown than it really is. Yeah. Yeah. You have to ask yourself, like, you have to pause and say, what is the story that my mind is creating right now? Is it actually true? Because a lot of times, and I. And I talk to clients about this as well, and in my case, it's actually worked to my advantage when it comes to. I'm sure you'll relate to this, Jay. When I'm creating content, putting slides together, doing a slide deck, doing rehearsal, in my mind, my mind says, well, that thing is going to take three hours or four hours or six hours. Whatever it is, it never does. It's like 90 minutes. So at least for me, I know, oh, it's built it up for this thing. I know it's actually not going to take that long, but I need to give myself enough space, even though it'll only take the 90 minutes. So I think everyone listening, it's Such a great practice to even just get curious and pause and slow down a little bit and start to even hear what is the story that's good and created in your mind right now? Because when you actually listen to it, I've also. I've noticed this shows up in other times, too, where not necessarily catastrophizing, but you've created this whole story. And sometimes I actually start laughing, like, out loud, very loud, because I'm like, this is like, listen to this story. Like, it is actually quite hilarious where my mind has gone to, like, very creative catastrophizing. The chances of that thing happening with that whole story that has been created, Absolutely. There's no way. But you can start to remove yourself. Like, you're not the story anymore. You're just listening to the story. And again, I laugh and I find it hilarious so often. So it's not taking control, it's not taking over. Well, there's such a critical component to what you just explained there, Kristen, which is you have to be able to disidentify with the thoughts and the story. You have to have that capacity to be detached from whatever is arising. And I say that with a lot of compassion for folks who that's not easy. It's not something for people to just be able to flip a switch. It really takes practice. It really requires intention to be able to be an observer of your mind. And that's why, I mean, all the research supports how effective mindfulness practice is to be able to get us to a place where we can be that observer. I feel like of all the things I've ever done in my life, Kristen, if I were to give you any tool and you say, jay, just pick one. Just pick one thing. And if you give this to everybody in the world to try to help them, what would you give them? And I would tell them it's meditation. I would say that's the one thing. And that can be. So people hear that word, they're like, oh, my God, that sounds like. I don't mean a certain spiritual practice. I don't mean you have to sit in a lotus position and be uncomfortable and be in a cave somewhere. I mean, simply just sitting and observing. Just sitting and observing whatever is coming up. And you can use the breath, because that's a really good anchor. It doesn't have to be, though. There's so many variations of meditation. But a practice where you are observing what's happening in the present moment without judgment, that's it. There are so many forms of it. If you commit to a practice like that day in and day out. Gradually it will happen on its own. It's an inevitability. You will become the observer of your thoughts and emotions. It's so true. And I think that there's again, I so many of my clients, or when I'm talking to leaders, same thing that the word meditation, there's a conjuring, this whole story that's also been created about that. And I think there's been a misconception. I don't know where this came from, where they think, oh, the mind's supposed to be quiet. I'm like, no, we have 50 to 60,000 thoughts a day. It's not about the mind being quiet. You're just noticing it. And you're just. They're not taking over again. You're just, oh, there it is. Oh, that's interesting. There it is. There it is. Observing certain ones get your attention more. Because obviously, if we're having 50 to 60,000 thoughts, not all, every single thought's getting our attention. But then when you start to slow down and observe them, you start to notice, ooh, that's an interesting repetitive thought that is happening a lot. Is that true? What's a new thought? And then, like, you're saying, too, I think that what I love with the meditation, mindfulness connection is then you're now training your brain, so now you start to like, oh, it's not taking over the same way. And new choices get to be made. Yeah, yeah. I think the analogy that I. I heard that really resonated with me, similar to what you're saying is to look up into the sky and see clouds passing, while the clouds are like your thoughts and you just observe the clouds. Some are really dark and gray, some are really beautiful. And then sometimes it's just all clouds and there's no blue at all. It's just. You're overwhelmed, but you can observe it all. What happens is that gradually the blue sky starts to show a bit more and the clouds begin to dissipate. Now, it doesn't mean that that's going to be the case every time. Right now if I sit. Well, this morning, for example, I sat meditation. I definitely had some thoughts coming through because there's some things that I'm personally working through, but I didn't hold the expectation, like, it's supposed to be quiet in here. Shut up. You know, like, that's silly. I. I know now that that's never the approach. The approach is, oh, it's like this now. Oh, it's like this now once inventor said this to me, Chris, and I'll never forget. She's like, it's like being able to put on the radio and be okay with whatever song comes on. Yes. And just be okay with it. Just okay. Whatever. Maybe, maybe it's not my favorite song. It's not like my favorite thoughts. Yeah. The repeating ones. But I'm just gonna, I'm gonna listen to this one and observe it because then what happens is it loses its grip over you. It, it doesn't stick the way it used to. It can. You can more easily release it. Yes. Yeah. And I think it's really important, what you were alluding to there as well is like this is not about judgment and this is about a lot of self compassion. Right. I think that so often that same. So I'm not sure if you've experienced this a lot, but a lot of my, you know, type A, ambitious, goal oriented, high performing leaders, they are so hard on themselves. Right. Like so loving and caring to everybody else around them. But when I start to hear them and I'm like, that inner critic is pretty loud to today. Like, is that how you would talk to a friend? Is that how you talk to your kid? Is that how you would talk to somebody you love? And they're like, no, absolutely never. So why is it okay for you to be talking to yourself like that? I don't think we need to be doing that anymore. It's, it's one of the most common things I see in ambitious leaders, driven leaders. They are so hard on themselves. That inner dialogue is awful. And I do think even myself, like, I've done this work on myself for 15 years and I still at times notice the inner dialogue getting really harsh and critical. And you mentioned how you would treat your best friend. I often ask people to think of a child that they love, you know, three years old from the past or right now, just think of one and that child comes up to you crying, having a tantrum. What would you do? What would be the first thing you do? And everyone says the same thing. You know, I'd get to their level, I'd give them a hug, I'd ask them, what's wrong? I was like, okay, that, that's beautiful. That makes sense. Do you ever do that for yourself? Do you ever approach yourself that way? And once, no, I'm harsh on myself. And so yeah, this again, it's a practice. It takes practice to do this. You have to be intentional about it. Really notice what that the tone even of that inner dialogue is. And start to be kinder to yourself. Yeah. And I also want for anybody listening because this shows up with some of my leaders as well. They feel like if I stop doing that, that's my edge and I'll sometimes I'll somehow not be as driven or committed or goal oriented. I'm like, no, I promise you, I promise you that that will not be the case. You're going to show up from a different energy. You might actually find you're even more successful at what you're doing and you can enjoy it in a different way. You know, I. Here's. I love that you brought that up. If any, if anyone is a sports fan, they will really get this. Okay, so think of a coach that is supporting, you know, a high school football team. Right? A football coach. Okay. There are many ways to be a coach. The kind of coach that curses and yells at the player. Will that coach at times see short term results? Yeah, maybe. But in the end, are those players going to really follow through and commit or at some point are they going to get fed up? Most likely they will. Now, you may not like the coach that's, hey, everything is great. Everything is fine and warm and cuddly. You don't have to be that coach to yourself either. There is the type of coach and they're, they're all over the place. A coach that is firm and respectful and kind. A coach that is direct. And you know, just from the way that coach looks at you that it's coming from a place of love. You know, it. Be that coach for yourself so it doesn't have to be, oh, well, I'm gonna lose my edge. No, if you had a coach with you that believed in you, that supported you and was kind and respectful and compassionate, had all of it, you would be performing at a higher level. Be that coach for yourself. Exactly. Because even when I do work with, with, with my clients around values and one of the, the questions I ask them is to get them to think about some people who really inspired them, who are those role models, those people in their lives. And we're doing it because we're seeing there's common themes. We start to see around those values and what they really respect. It's always exactly what you're saying. They're never like, oh, that person who like yelled and screamed at me and made me live through fear. I really admired them. Like, I really want more of that in my life. No, yeah, yeah, no, we, we never, I mean, we'll maybe remember it. We won't forget that. But it's not going to be what fuels are what, what's inspiring us. It's not going to be what gets us to be our very best. So, yeah, I feel like, I don't know, I know that I am kind of that prototype where I would really be hard on myself and I would not want to lose my edge because I always wanted to be a top performer. And now I do have those conversations with myself where I'm that firmer coach. It's like, hey, I get it, it's hard right now and you have a job to do. That's what I'll say to myself. You have a job to. People are counting on you and you have to perform at your very best. That's something you could say to yourself without being harsh. You can say that while still maintaining kindness and compassion. Exactly. I love that example that you gave because so often part of your leadership journey and continuing to is doing things that are hitting your edges, that are getting you outside of your comfort zone and saying yes to things that might be helping you level up and are super uncomfortable. And so when you're in it, there might be a part of you that's like, I don't know what I did here. I don't know why I said yes. I don't know why I signed up. Your most resourceful self knows that this is here for your learning and growth. And there might be a part of you that has to say like, I know this is hard, but this is what you want. This is, this is something that you're aspiring to and be able to give that pep talk that might have to be a little bit more direct. So I think that's a great example. So, Jay, when we start to think about organizations and leaders and then being able to. I love to approach this from two places from. And we've talked a lot about some things. But to continue through this, where we're going, when we start to think about leaders and them showing up as the best versions of themselves and then being able to show up as the best versions when it comes to creating high performing teams. What would you like to see more of from leaders? I would like to see leaders be able to be vulnerable, acknowledge difficulty while keeping the focus on the ultimate goal at hand. So it's usually one of a few approaches that I see. Something hard, something difficult happens, there's a lot of change or uncertainty of, God forbid, layoffs or something like that, you know, and a leader will either just act like nothing happened and just say hey, we have to keep going. We have to keep going. So not acknowledge what's going on. Yeah. A leader could fall into a negative pattern of falling into victimhood and having their team fall into victimhood. Yeah. And I feel like there's a better approach that I don't, I want to see leaders do more of which is to be able to get people in a meeting or on a call and, and it to start by being honest about what that leader is going through. I have an example of it that I always think of is one of my leaders that I worked with at Tesla. We had multiple layoffs and I was one of the survivors, if you will, at the time. And he would get us on a call and he would tell us how hard it was, what he had to just go through, how difficult it was. And he would, you know, nearly emotional explaining what he just had to go through and letting people go and knowing the effect it's having on their families. And he would just, he stated it and he just said, I just want to talk about it. And he got quiet and we all just started to talk about it. And it created such psychological safety amongst our group that we were then able, after that call and you know, meetings after, to stay focused on our productivity and do the work that we needed to do. He didn't though, ignore it. He didn't fall into victimhood. He didn't just say we have to keep going. He acknowledged what all of us were feeling by, by leading with vulnerability. I want to see leaders do more of that. I think that's such a beautiful example of bringing the human skills in. Right. And it's not over indexing on one or the other. And I think that's really good the way you explained the victimhood because I have seen the over indexing where it's like, yeah, I had to do this and I can't believe this company's doing this. And it's terrible. And that doesn't make people feel better either. Then it just makes them, it just puts them in this energy. I'm like, well, what am I supposed to do with that? Right. Whereas what you described there so wonderfully is it's like, like, let's acknowledge our humanity right now. Like, that was a really hard thing to do. I wish it didn't look the way it does. And it does. And let's acknowledge that and allow the feelings that are showing up around it. And then from this place, how are we going to take action and continue? I think it's, it's, it's interesting how those small moments, I saw a lot of that, too, during the pandemic. I thought the leaders who did a really great job were saying, listen, today's a really hard day for me. Right. Like, I'm thinking about my kids, and I'm doing online schooling with, like, three kids at home. I'm thinking about my parents and the struggles that they're having, and I can't go see them. And I'm trying to navigate this thing right now with no playbook. And, you know, they didn't stay in that energy so that everyone's like, okay, well, we all feel helpless. Right. They just kind of acknowledge. Here's. I don't know, you might be feeling this. This is what I'm feeling. And, you know, here's how we're going to try to work together and get through this. I think it just creates such a beautiful going back to what we said earlier around the connection. Right. And the connection is that humanity. Yeah. I think the example that really relates to this is a person stuck in a hole. So I want you to imagine that you're walking outside and there's a hole in the ground, and you hear somebody screaming, help, Help. Okay, you know what? What would you do? Well, what you could do is walk over to the hole and say, oh, that, that stinks. Good luck, and just walk away. Right. That's one approach not effective. You're not helping anybody. But sometimes that's approach leaders think is just have a little bit of sympathy, pity, and then move forward. Yes. The second approach is you jump into the hole. Now, if you jump into the hole and you're sitting there with the person and say, hey, I feel this. I feel what you're feeling. Hey, that's empathy. That's nice. But now you're both in a hole. You can't get out. Right. So that's when people go too far. Right. I'm over indexing as you were saying. Yes. The best approach here, Kristen, is you take a rope, you tie it around your waist, you tie the other end towards the stump. In the tree. In the tree. And then you climb down and you say, hey, I see you're down here, and this is hard. I get it. And I'm here for you. Here's my hand. Whenever you're ready, let's go ahead and get you out of this hole. That's true compassion. That's the kind of leader that I would want to be working for. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's such a great visual. I'm. I'm Seeing the visual as you're sharing. Jay. Very effective. So let's also think about it from a culture perspective. So HR from an organizational perspective, they have lots of different areas they can focus on. When it start. When we start to create these environments where there is more resilient, we've got these mindsets where there's, where there is also access to understanding the mindfulness tools, all those types of things. So an HR leader is being tasked to take some steps to create a more. A healthier, more engaged workforce where people can thrive. What would you like to see them doing more of when it comes to culture? Yeah. I think one of the things that there's always opportunity, I think, to train leaders. I, I think that so often people are in leadership positions. Yeah. And, and they were promoted because they were a great performer or maybe they had been there for a certain amount of time and you know, they were due for that and they don't have the training that they need. So I know this is kind of a high umbrella answer, but I just, I think that there isn't just one tool or one. It's really train these leaders and educate them on the things you and I are talking about here of how to be more emotionally intelligent. How to not make it all about you and you being right and you getting it your way. I mean, that's what a top performer does. A top performer is like, I'm gonna get after it. I'm gonna get my result. And they are just focused. That's amazing. Hey, if that's for you, be an individual contributor and rock out until you retire. Yeah. If you're in a leadership position, it's different. You can't approach things that way. You have to look to your people as. That's where I get the results. This is what matters most. So I feel like what an HR leader could do. The best thing they can do is invest in their leaders becoming more emotionally intelligent. Those leaders also learning how to effectively communicate. Yeah. How to run an effective meeting. Like how to be able to give the feedback they need to give. I think that that's the game changer for any organization to have a culture where people feel psychologically safe and are driven and productive. I 100% concur with you. And I think it's. It's actually irresponsible and not fair what some organizations do in terms of not setting those leaders up for success. Like they've just become an accidental leader. Right. Like they were amazing individual contributor contributors went into leadership and no one's teaching Them the tools around how to coach, how to mentor, how to give feedback, how to have difficult conversations, how to run a meeting. Oh my gosh, we could do a whole podcast just on that. But how to run a meeting or how to not have a meeting in the first place so there's less meetings happening. But all of those things do require skills. They require learning something that you don't necessarily wake up one day and like, oh, I just woke up and I know how to do leadership now. Yeah. And Kristen, like the majority of people who are in those leadership positions, they didn't get that education before they joined the organization either. Right. Where, where are people being educated on this? Where, like where in college? What? You maybe have one class about it. Yeah. You're lucky if you do. And if you did it probably, you probably forgot it all because you had all those other classes about all these other things, business related or whatnot. And so people have not received the training. And if you really go into the default behavior, behavior of a human being, it in most cases is not the natural approach to drop one's ego and to learn how to be an effective leader. Instead, it's more about self preservation and how I take care of me. Right. That's the natural human orientation. As you said though, the good news is anybody can learn it if they're open and willing, but they just don't know what they don't know. Exactly. Exactly. And as you're talking right now, I'm like, why do we not have in elementary schools, in high schools, courses on leadership? You know, there's so much, you know, I'm not saying geography and science and history and all these things are not important. I could get again, get into a whole rant around. There's so much memorization happening. And I asked my kids to be weeks later and they don't even remember what they memorized. Perhaps some of that time could be spent teaching leadership skills because everyone on the podcast knows that. I also believe you don't even have to be leading within an organization that every single day you're showing up a leader in your life, but based on how you're leading yourself, how you're leading your families, how you're leading in your communities. So if anybody's listening today in the educational sector, I think you should be advocating for leadership in when they're earlier on in school. It's so true. It's so true. I think that the earlier we tackle it, the better for people to really develop the skill set. You're right. It's and it's also, like, not just for work, you know, you mentioned Kristen, you know, your kids. I feel like the thing that. The things that I've learned as a leader through my own education, whether that was through reading or through the experiences of working under great leaders and being trained within corporate. And then the work I do now, it's also made me a better father. Yes. It's made me a better husband. It's made me a better friend. Because I apply so much of what I learned in how I lead people and how I communicate and how I give feedback. I apply it to all of my relationships. Right. Which is why I was so. I'm so passionate about being an executive coach. And why I love it so much is because when you're raising the consciousness, it's not just in the workplaces, it's how they show up in all areas. Areas of their life. Right. Which is. Creates a better world, from my perspective. It absolutely does. And it also brings a lot more peace of mind. Yeah. Right. For everyone. Right? Yeah. Jay, I love this conversation, and I feel like we can continue to speak for hours, but I always want to give you an opportunity as my guest to leave a final thought. Whatever feels most just front and center for you. Well, you have it in the background of your wall, and I just. I've been looking at it, and I wanted to say something about it. It says, all you need is love. And I really believe that that is true. And I've believed it for a long time now. It's in my. My talk about how, you know, love is a word that you don't hear in business and professional, that you can't use the word love. And I really challenge that because there's really only two choices. There's two choices in how we lead people. Are we fueled with fear or are we fueled with love? And when we're fueled with fear, it's about self preservation, victimhood, wanting to. Or feeling unsafe, feeling overwhelmed, so you fall into fear. What we want to establish is a sense of safety within ourselves and our people. We don't be able to focus on what matters. We want to stay connected. All of that is love. So I just wanted to end by acknowledging what's on that wall there and agree with you. All you need is love. I love that. And there's a reason why I have that so that all my leaders see that every time we're in a session as a reminder to ground into that. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation, Jay. Oh, you're most welcome. I was so it's such a pleasure to be here and you were fantastic to chat with Kristen. Thank you for having me. And where can people learn more about you and the work that you're doing in the world? So my website is Jabasi Me and from there people can find out much more about me and the work that I do. Also, I'm Quite active on LinkedIn. Anyone can just search Jay Abbasi. They'll find me there as well as the podcast Unstuck with Jay Abbasi. Amazing. And we will have all of that in the show notes and for everybody listening. If you enjoy the episode, please share it with other leaders. Your reviews on Apple Podcasts and Spotify are amazing because this gets the podcast in front of more leaders. And if you are looking to develop more confident, emotionally intelligent leaders in your organization or if you're personally ready to to grow as a leader, let's connect. I'd love to share more about my one on one coaching, transformational keynotes and ongoing leadership training wherever you are turning tuning in from in the world. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. We are sending tons of love. Bye bye.