#59 - I'm In - The Conversation Gap as an Operational Risk

Speaker A: This podcast is sponsored by Leonardo Hotels UK and Ireland.

Speaker B: IMS Image. I'm in

Speaker A: ioh. Welcome to. I'm in the Institute of Hospitality's official podcast, hosted as ever by me, Phil street, fih. Today we're looking at the conversation gap as a potential risk. And joining me for this we have Martin Trainor, obe fih, Raffaella Chattsimarcu Mih and Sophia Meyer, mih. A massive thanks to all three of them for giving up the time for this one. Don't forget, you can feature on a future episode yourself. Just reach out to me directly at, uh, phil streetstituteofhospitality ah.org but for now and let's get to it. Ioh. Hello and welcome M to. I'm in the Institute of Hospitality's official podcast, hosted as ever by me, Phil street, fih. Now, for those of you who know me well, you'll know that I place a huge amount of importance on conversation. And I have, in fact, a saying that I try to live by, which is that conversation is where all great progress, progress begins. Every great friendship, partnership, idea, decision, they all start the same way, with a conversation. But what happens when those conversations don't happen? The good conversations, the difficult ones, the uncomfortable ones. What happens when assumptions replace understanding or when leaders think that they've been heard, but they aren't? Because whilst we often think of communication as, uh, a people issue, perhaps it's something much bigger than that. And that's what we're going to explore today. So joining me for this conversation are three brilliant human beings, all from within the IOH's membership, who each bring a very different perspective on hospitality, leadership and business, and have all kindly given up their time for this chat today. Right then, first up, from within the fellowship we have, I think you're a returning guest to the show, the very famous Martin Trainer, obe. How are you?

Speaker B: Yes, very well indeed, thanks, Phil.

Speaker A: Good, good. What's new in your world?

Speaker B: Well, as you know, the, um, Institute is heading towards chartered status, so I've been spending a lot of time working with Robert and the, uh, Privy Council to get our application through. It's, uh, quite time consuming. But having said that, I think we're in the right place now and I'm expecting this application to be successful.

Speaker A: That's great. That's great. When will you know?

Speaker B: Can you see the, the problem with, um, these applications and dealing with the Privy Council? There's no Pacific time, so. Right. We've just got to make sure that everyone's happy with it then. It, then we petition the king and hopefully we'll get our chartered status. So. But there's. There's no sort of defined timeline. We just keep nicking away at it when they're ready.

Speaker A: That's.

Speaker B: Yeah, basically, yes.

Speaker A: No, that's cool. What else do you have your, your head in these days? Or is that. Is that where your main focus is?

Speaker B: That's the main focus now. I still do other bits and pieces. I've been chairing, uh, Loughborough Town Deal, which is a project, uh, where we drew down, leveling up funding for the town of Loughborough, uh, which is the next village from me, and we drew down what, 16.9 million pounds of levelling up funding. We've delivered 11 projects in partnership with others to the value of 55 million. So we've been able to make quite, uh, a significant difference Loughborough. And that's taken, uh, a fair amount of my time, but it's always rewarding to see that type of thing, for sure.

Speaker A: I can only imagine that sounds really cool and there's something really special about seeing endeavor rewarded with progress.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's. That's the thing. I enjoy doing these sort of things when you can see at the end of it, you've made an achieve. You've achieved something or you've made a difference. And again, that's when, uh, I got involved on the supervisory board for the institute because, um, out of our 17,000 members, I'm probably the only one that's worked in central government. So, uh, I was drafted in to help the process.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. A very, very wise move, I, uh, think to understand the inner workings, I would imagine, is half the battle, in fact.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is, yes. It's, uh. And I often say to people, you've got those that remember the good old series of yes Minister. It wasn't actually a satirical comedy, it was a training video.

Speaker A: I do actually remember that. Yes. I've got to rewatch that now that you said that as an older man from, uh, when I watched it the first time around. No, you're very, very welcome and massively appreciate you making time for the show today.

Speaker B: Yep. Delighted to join you.

Speaker A: Very good. Next up for within the membership, we have Raffaella, uh, Chattimarcu.

Speaker C: It's a bit hard.

Speaker A: Very good. How are you?

Speaker C: I'm, um, very well, thank you. Thank you for the invitation. I'm, um, very happy to be here and joining you. Uh, I really love your podcast and that's a great opportunity for us to discuss, give our opinion and share our thoughts together.

Speaker A: Bless you. Yes, that's very kind. Where do we find you today?

Speaker C: So today, uh, I'm working at, uh, Black Isle in the Highlands. So I'm looking after a, uh, boutique hotel. I am there, the assistant general manager, as I said. So basically I'm taking care of the operations, I'm taking care of the communication between teams and departments and hopefully giving a great experience to our guests.

Speaker A: Fantastic. And actually, uh, you're not a million miles away then from my, My brother lives up in that part of the world and so, uh, I'm often in the, uh, the vicinity of the Black Isle, so I shall give you a little look up the next time I'm up.

Speaker C: It's a beautiful part of the world, so you definitely should do that.

Speaker A: It really is. Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you for making time today in your busy schedule as well. I know you've had some, some issues today as well, so I appreciate you working around that. That's very, very kind indeed. And, um, next up from. Well, it would have normally been an aih. That's what normally happens on this show, but actually our AIH got promoted, he says in inverted commas to a member, and that is none. None other than Sophia Meyer.

Speaker D: Yes. Hi, Phil. Thank you for having me again. So it's my second podcast. It's been a while, but always, uh, nice, um, to kind of join you in these conversations. Always very exciting. And yeah, it's always good to meet new people and talk about these really interesting topics, as always, uh, in your beautiful podcast. So thank you for having me.

Speaker A: Bless you. Yes, yes. So where are you these days? What are you up to?

Speaker D: So I work for Hilton. I'm a cluster revenue manager in the head office. I recently moved out of the uk, so I was first based in Watford, just north of London, and now, uh, since September, moved to Frankfurt Am Mine in Germany because we opened a new office. So managing currently three hotels in continental Europe, different markets and yeah, just now, over her nearly four years, uh, with the company.

Speaker A: Excellent. I mean, that's. It's awesome as well. That's the modern world, right? Is that we can. I mean, we could pretty much. You can't do it in operations. Sure. But in support roles, you could pretty much base yourself anywhere, assuming that people can get a hold of you when they need to get a hold of you.

Speaker D: For sure. Yeah. I was super excited about the move A, uh, bit closer to home as well, so. Good one.

Speaker A: Yeah. Good stuff. Well, you're very, very welcome. I appreciate you Making time for the show today as well. Yes. Well, before we get into today's topic, I always like to ask my guests why they said, I'm in to the Institute of Hospitality. So I'm going to come back to you, Martin. And. Yeah. Uh, why did you say, I'm in to the ioh? A couple of years ago, probably.

Speaker B: Now, sadly, Phil, it's over 40 years ago. Um, when I was at college, uh, in Cardiff, I was the student rep on the old HCMA South Wales branch. So that's how, uh, I got involved. And I've been a member ever since. Since, uh, admittedly the first 22 years of my career I managed hotels, but after that I became chief executive of a Chamber of Commerce. And before I retired a couple of years ago, I did five years in the Cabinet Office as the Small Business Crown Representative. So. But all that time, I've always kept up my membership and I'm still very keen to support the industry where I can.

Speaker A: Very good, very good. Yes. And, uh, yeah, well, we've spoken about already. Yes, your involvement is, um, most welcome at this time.

Speaker B: Well, if I can help, that's what I'm here for.

Speaker A: Good stuff. Yes, brilliant. So, yes. And, um, same question to you, Raffaella. Why did you say, I'm into the Institute of Hospitality?

Speaker C: So I believe that the most important part for a, uh, leader and generally for a person that works in hospitality industry, is keeping updated, changing, um, thoughts and sharing everything with other persons in hospitality. So no matter, uh, what degrees we all of us have and what education we might have been through, I believe that we still have to be up to date. It is quite impressive how the Institute of Hospitality keeps all the members updated for any, uh, changes or any new, uh, things that are happening in, in the industry. So this is the reason that I wanted to get involved and, uh, be more energetic in this industry.

Speaker A: Great stuff. Yeah. And actually, you and I met at an event when you were working with a, uh, lady called Jess, who I believe had not long won the Restaurant Manager of the Year, uh, award through the ioh.

Speaker C: That's quite true. So she's a brilliant person. And we were representing Mingarri Castle at the time. So we had, uh, the great opportunity to have an award at this ceremony, and it was definitely one of the highlights of my career so far.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Yes. And Jess hasn't been on the podcast yet, by the way, so. Come on, Jess. But in any case, all in good time. All in good time. But no, thank you. Thank you very much for that. And Then same to you, Sophia. Why did you say I'm in? I can't remember what you said last time, so I can't even test you.

Speaker D: Me neither. So I hope I won't just repeat myself. But no, actually, I mean for me it was a bit uh, like finding, let's say family away from home in the industry that I've grown up with. Um, so basically I come from a small, small region in Northern Italy. We're very reliant on tourism. So I've been basically working in hospitality from a very young age and I moved to the UK by myself in 2019. Of course I studied hospitality uh, as well at uni. So kind of already had let's say like minded individuals at university. But it was really great to meet um, this big of a network in the industry in a different country. So for me it was more about meeting new people, networking, um, and also let's say, um, for future, maybe finding new opportunities. But yeah, was mainly let's say the network and basically um, finding people who love uh, what I love, which is hospitality.

Speaker A: Yeah. And um, how did you find the IOH in the first place? Like did you get marketed to or did somebody suggest that you should look them up?

Speaker D: Yeah, we kind of got uh, pushed towards it from our lecturers at university. So um, as ah, students we do get a discounted membership. So that's how I started with a couple of friends of mine from university, started going to events, panels and yeah, which was amazing because already there you kind of got out of uni, uh, for an evening, let's say a couple of hours of conversations, a bit of networking, meeting new people. So started like that a couple of years in and then after graduation actually I joined the Youth Council which again I think is an amazing initiative. Um, and yeah, I'm lucky enough to be part of it. And we're really kind of doing our best to support new young talent coming into the industry, making the events and the whole thing a bit more accessible as well. Um, which is great.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's such a valuable thing, the Youth Council. I remember ah, discussing it with Robert at the time when he took the role on and you know, the fact that he and I are on the same page. Everybody's voice has power in this industry. Right. It doesn't matter how experienced or not you are, you're in. So your opinion and your voice matters. That was definitely the viewpoint and it's great to see that the Youth Council seems to keep going from strength to strength and long may that continue for sure, yeah.

Speaker D: Indeed.

Speaker A: Yeah. Good stuff. Right, well, I think it's about time we got stuck into today's conversation, which mentioned at the head of the show is all around the conversation gap. So a very open question to you all just to kick things off. When you hear the phrase the conversation gap, what does it mean to you?

Speaker D: For me, it's a bit like conversation, or at least people speaking with each other or to each other, but not really kind of getting the message through and not really understanding each other. I think it can happen quite a bit, let's say, if. If conversation needs to happen quickly in between meetings or quick feedback session between, uh, an employer employee or different team members. I think it's quite a bit of that for me at Dyson as well. At least in my job you have it a bit more between departments and not everyone communicates properly to each other so that mistakes can happen. So, yeah, I would say that's, for

Speaker A: me, anything to add in, guys, I

Speaker C: think it's, uh, mostly the space, uh, between what we communicated and what actually the people have understood. On this so often the problem, uh, is not really, uh, that something wasn't said, but it's mostly that someone didn't get the chance to ask a question and better understand what was being said.

Speaker B: I think I'd probably add to that because, um, I always remember some very good advice from a county council chief executive. He said, when you're dealing in meetings, don't listen to what is said, but listen to what is not said. And that is often where the agenda is. And that was quite a good piece of advice and something I've taken note of over the years. But I think the conversation gap is the difference between hearing and listening. And I would take this at sort of the macro level with government. You know, they are listening to us, but I don't think they're hearing us when we say the difficulties the hospitality sector, uh, is going through. And that, to me is the difference.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I mean, we could get into that, couldn't we? But we won't today. We won't. But the. It's so true though. I mean, yes. It's not really a response, is it? I mean, yes, is the start of a response, but actually it's everything that comes after that that, uh, is actually probably where the learning is. And actually, you know, your, Your comment there, Martin, around the, uh, the advice that the counselor gave you, Somebody once taught me as well, when you're. When you're in a conversation amongst a group of people, actually it's really interesting to not watch the person who's speaking, but watch the people who are listening. Because, uh, you can learn a lot from the body language of people, the reactions that they give. That's why it's important, I think, when we do the podcast, that we can all see each other because it's also useful for us to get cues from each other as to when it's time to speak and if I've got something else to add and all of that kind of stuff. I mean, the conversation gap for me also involves all methods of communication, not just necessarily what's being said.

Speaker B: I think that's very right. And again, this is probably the new age that we're in with teams and zooms and all the rest of it. Having spent many years chairing boards meetings, you sit there in person, you can read the room, you can see people are uncomfortable or somebody wants to come in. It's much harder on teams and zooms because you're only getting a little bit of a look at somebody. So it's. It's often quite difficult to pick up that body language. And actually sometimes when you're, you know, in a boardroom setting, you know, you need to read the room.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Great stuff. Yeah. Well, so what's the cost then, when important conversations don't happen?

Speaker C: So I think the bigger cost is the assumption on this, uh, because one person believes that something was understood and most likely the manager so then walks away and another person has read the conversation completely differently. And actually within one day, uh, several persons, we have several editions of the same conversation or of the same event that happened during the service. So I think the biggest problem is just assuming you already know what's happening and in the end, something else is in reality.

Speaker D: Yeah. Ah. And I would add kind of the. My revenue dropped to it as well. I'm a numbers person, so I will kind of bring that as well. But I think in general, we might then underestimate how much of a business risk it is as well. In a way, let's say, at least for me, again, as I said earlier, if the departments don't communicate might have misconceptions, then in my case, missed M revenue. Even so it is, even on that level can be kind of a money situation. And then I think between leadership and employees can even then be dissatisfaction if, let's say an employee is not heard properly, feedback is not perceived or given properly, and then could even, uh, let's say, lead to turnover or anyway, uh, dissatisfaction with employees. So I think in that Case similar.

Speaker B: That is a good point. And often when we're communicating, we assume that people understand what we're saying. And I think there is a definition, Phil, if I remember rightly, of assume, which is you can make an ass of you and an ass of me. And I think it's uh, amusing, but it's actually quite true because, you know, you can happily think that you have communicated your message effectively, but they have a totally different understanding of uh, what the conversation was about. And again, I think m. As opposed to direct operational level. It's often one of the challenges the private sector has with the education sector because, you know, they often say they speak a different language. And you know, again, you know, I was talking to a university the other day and they were explaining to me that short, uh, term planning is 18 months. Well, in business short term planning is next week, you know, and it's, you know, and again, you're assuming different timetables to different things.

Speaker A: Yeah, indeed. We know in assumptions as well, we, we all assume that we're going to be operating under the framework that the world is giving us and that will never change. And then what, you know, when you forecast, you forecast around what is going on now. But the world has demonstrated over the last six years, I think that it has a, has a habit of um, of well, well, changing your forecast basically is probably the diplomatic way to put it. But yes, there's no question in there. That was just a statement. Um, there's actually, there's a chap that I had a conversation with recently who is, ah, a consultant in the world of culture building, uh, within organizations. And he's got a very simple phrase which I always take with me now, which is really about establishing the difference between what we know and what we think we know. And a lot of the time in culture the gap there is massive. And yet the assumption says that, well, we as a species, we're amazing at building stories around what has happened without having uh, the full detail on what has actually happened. And so I think that for me is a really great place for anybody who is just looking to get started on how to improve your gap in conversation is really just think about that concept of what we know for sure and the difference between that and what we think we know because, uh, the gap is often quite large.

Speaker B: Yes, I wouldn't disagree with that. And again, often we can be operating on um, 60, 70% of what we assume is the right answer. And actually there can be a whole variance out there. And I'll give an interesting example I hosted a charity lunch a couple of weeks ago. Paul Burrell was the speaker. And, of course, Paul Burrell was, um, Princess Diana's, um, butler. And again, he was the one that she described as a rock. But it's funny, I think we, we knew 80% of the story about what happened to Princess Diana, but during his talk, he probably filled in 20% of the missing stuff that we didn't know. But it changed everybody's perception of what happened. And it just shows, actually, you might be in, in control or aware of 80% of the information, but sometimes that 20% can be a game changer.

Speaker A: Totally. And there's also an argument as to really, in the end, do we really know anything?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: And then there was Donald Trump.

Speaker A: Well, indeed, indeed. Who knows everything, of course.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so looking across hospitality as a whole, where do you see the biggest conversation gaps today? What needs to be happening more often?

Speaker B: Well, if you want me to kick off, I think the biggest conversation now are between the sector, uh, and government. And I think, as I was referring to earlier on, you know, they listen to what we say, but they're not really hearing. And I think, you know, we, those conversations need to be enhanced because quite clearly, hospitality is under pressure. We reckon we're losing seven hospitality businesses a day. You know, and that's not necessarily down to just the national insurance. It's a combination of business rates, energy costs, food costs, and, um, people are going out of business. But we don't seem to be able to get to a situation, situation where in central government, they really understand that bit. And that is probably down to the fact that, uh, I don't think anybody in the cabinet's ever worked in a business. And it shows. And it's just trying to get that understanding. For me, at a national level, that's the missing bit of the conversation,

Speaker D: I would add on that as well. For me, it's, I think, also quite a bit generational still. I think, especially in our industry, we still, at least you have entry level, maybe students coming in with like, 16, 17 years of age. You might still have the top leaders, um, about 40, 50 years older than that. So I think it's quite a bit of now, the newer generations bringing in a bit of a change, especially when it comes to communication. I feel like I see my generation being Generation Z as well, being relevant in this, because I feel like we started bringing the conversation around mental health, uh, burnout, work, life balance in a little bit more. So I think that might still be quite a bit of A gap between maybe even leadership and then entry level, um, employees, really.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I would like to add, in my experience, I believe also there is a big gap between the persons that are taking the decisions and the persons that are delivering the experience every day. So, uh, sometimes there will be some requirements that the persons are taking the decision not really are aware of. That's why sometimes the, uh, most brilliant ideas could come from the person that are closest to the guest experience. And I think from all of us, uh, as leaders would be required to be closer enough to hear and to see the last result, which is the guest experience for sure.

Speaker A: There's three really interesting viewpoints. They're all completely relevant. I completely agree with all of them as well. So we've got a governmental gap, uh, we have a generational gap and we have an operational gap, let's just say it, for the simplicity of language from leadership shipped to the floor. So let's take each one of them in turn, then. And I'll come back to you, Martin. How do we address that? Because the reality of a situation whereby, as you quite rightly said, a cabinet that doesn't have anybody who's got particularly any experience of business and how that works, that's not going to change tomorrow. So how could we affect that today, do you think?

Speaker B: Well, I think, to be perfectly honest with you, I think, um, if Andy Burnham does become m. The Prime Minister, he does understand hospitality. I know Sasha, um, quite well and, uh, he's told me that this is Sasha Lord. He's told me that, you know, he used to be, um, Andy Burnham's nighttime economy advisor. And I think somebody like him that's run a city or a size of Manchester understands a lot more of the nuances of running a business. So I think there'll be a natural change. The problem is whether he can take everybody else with him and whether he can get the civil Service firing in the right direction. And that's the reality of the situation. But we certainly do need people in the centre that understand what we're doing. And again, it's not just hospitality. I think it's business in its entirety.

Speaker A: Yeah. And from a hospitality perspective, I guess all we can keep doing is keep having the conversations with the people who make the decisions and showcase the issues and just keep banging the drum, I guess.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah. And to your point, Sophia, around the generational gap, from an IOH's perspective, this is something that I loved about when, uh, Robert took over, that he immediately introduced the Youth Council, which is a great first Step, but it's a first step. And so from your perspective, how do we close that gap in terms of trying to get the. Or is it impossible? Because, I mean, I think I feel like the generational gap is something that's just happened since the beginning of time. Should we just accept that?

Speaker D: I mean, I think as Martin said in that kind of side, I think it's still about the understanding from both parties of what kind of the differences are and what either ways can bring to the table in a positive note. Because anyway, I think quite often it's about all these youngsters not, uh, respecting the hierarchy or not, uh, um, I don't know, not working as hard as we used to at that age or something like that, but also the other way around being like, oh, leadership is, uh, stuck up, too serious and whatever else. I think it's more about focusing on the positives and what we can learn from each other, both from a work point of view, but then even kind of in, especially with the work life balance, I think our kind of. The younger generations are bringing in kind of very good points and like, you know, working, uh, to live rather than living to work maybe. I think that's kind of one of my kind of bigger points, I would say to try and shift the focus a little bit. Um, but also then as you said in the ioh, at least we also see it with the Youth Council how relevant it was to kind of bring, uh, the younger side or like to represent the entry level people in the, in the industry to represent them. Even as easy as that. In events that we organize, right, we have specific, let's say panel discussions and uh, above and beyonds with IOH events. But maybe then younger people, either for, I don't know, for whatever reason, might not be fully interested in that. And we were trying to kind of shift away the focus on maybe something a bit more practical. So yeah, I think just, just appreciating both sides and the strength and what they can bring to the table, I would say.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So how did you get to be a general manager at Leonardo Hotels? Well, I started in an operational role and then grew from there. 74% of our general managers did the same. All that learning and development we offer must be doing the trick. Exactly. I dived into Leonardo's Earn while earn approach approach. It gives our teams real opportunities to grow while they work. And then there is Leo Cares, all

Speaker A: the charity challenges and thank you weeks.

Speaker B: It's great that as one of Europe's fastest growing hotel groups, they give back in so many ways. Come on and check out careers.leonardohotels.com to discover available roles across the UK and Ireland. Can I just add to this because, um, it was interesting a few years ago I had a long conversation with, with the British Retail Consortium. They represent all the sort of retailers and they were explaining to me the difference between, you know, shall we say, Phil, people of our age group and you know, Generation Z and everybody else now and it. And interestingly retail, uh, is very, very good at adapting. And they found that retail sales were being influenced by what a company stood for. So actually the environmental policy and people were making decisions on the basis, oh well, I'll shop with next as opposed to Zest or Marks and Spencer because they stand for whatever. And of course retail is very good at adapting to that. But it didn't take that long before it then translated into recruitment because I think, and certainly before the pandemic I think we were very much into an employee's market and a lot of people from the younger generations were making it decision. Well, I think I would like to work for that company because I quite like what it stands for. And M, to be perfectly honest, you feel when, when we'd left university it was, you know, how much you going to pay me, can I pay the mortgage, what am I called, etc. And sort of ethical stance of the company was probably about number nine or number ten. Now it's probably number one. So it does influence. And that's why I was, you know, when Robert set the youth council up, I think it was absolutely the right idea because, you know, let's hear it from people that see it differently. And uh, I was laughing with um, Cyrus Tollyw the other day because we were all sat there comparing that when we were assistant manager we worked 120 hours a week, the usual sort of thing and we'd be laughing to it and said I saw silly old sods. I've got to stop banging on about that because the young generation is just not interested. And you're absolutely right.

Speaker A: Yeah. I had a conversation with Cyrus once upon a time where he told me about how his old appraisal systems used to work. Which is basically, I've filled out your appraisal, sign it and off you go. That's basically, that's how it used to work.

Speaker D: Yeah, I would not work anymore.

Speaker A: Absolutely know. And um, you know, I have a theory around this as well because I'm a Gen X. Uh, I call myself the Paradoxical generation because we are uh, both parts the Best generation that exists of course, because that's my generation. Uh, but also the most stupid because like you just said there, Martin, we were the ones that just said, yeah, okay, we'll do that. Yeah, okay, no problem, we'll do that. And you know, whilst on the one hand it's great for building resilience and you know, scope of knowledge and all of that kind of stuff. You know, there's no right or wrong way to do it right in the end. And I think this is the, this is the risk for me around as well at marking everybody with the generational brush is that we're just putting people into boxes again. And I think really that kind of comes back to the assumptive thinking around, you know, just because somebody sits in a generation Z box or a generation Xbox, that we should be speaking to them this way. They will want this, they will want that. Really in the end the, the joy comes from having the conversation with the individual. And yes, it's time consuming and but by crikey the upside is massive in terms of getting that understanding of what drives the human being, not the generation, uh, I suppose. Rafaela, you mentioned the leadership to kind of floor gap, uh, in terms of how do you think we could address that?

Speaker C: I think the best way to address that would be both departments to get involved to decisions uh, being made. So I would say the leaders would have to, to have a better vision of what is happening and a better idea on the floor. So be closer to the team and uh, being there in everyday guest experience and on the other side when a decision is to be made, they should consider the opinion of the team that is closer to the guest and takes uh, like their opinion. Like every day they know exactly what a guest will require during his stay or before that. So I think uh, we shouldn't just uh, separate the department and the one to be making decisions and the other one to execute the orders. We should all work together and give the best result.

Speaker A: Yeah. Have you seen that happen? As in when that's done well within your organization, anywhere that you've worked before or even now?

Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. So through my experience I had this problem several times and I always try to approach it at the same time. The last year as a leader I'm um, being closer to the floor, I'm trying to understand the needs both of my team and the guest. And uh, it works better. For example, when I'm to take a decision, I'm not just thinking what I would do in this occasion. I just sit down with my team and I'm like, okay, so we have this problem or we need to reach this target. What would you suggest? How would you like us to approach this? And where do you see maybe some gaps or problems that need to be taken care of of? And literally uh, they just bring ideas uh, that they're so brilliant and you never maybe consider before as a manager because most of the time that's the reality. We spent some time behind a screen and not behind the actual guest. So I think it's very important to have eyes on the floor, both with presence and both by taking the opinion of each member of the team.

Speaker A: Yeah. The flip side benefit of that as well for the team members is that they feel valued. Right. Because they feel like they are being listened to and that their voice is important and therefore the likelihood is that they're probably going to stick around for a bit longer.

Speaker C: Definitely. And no one likes being treated like a tool for the business. They all have personalities. They are all human beings and they have their own side. And uh, being treated by respect, that means they feel also more uh, open and more confident to come next time they see something and talk to you. So this open, like uh, a future that you can actually have a healthy conversation with your team and not being like scared or feeling that they won't be listened to. So I think it's a very healthy way to approach things.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you might have just come up with quote of the year to summarize culture, by the way. Nobody wants to feel like a tool for the business is a great way of summarizing that. I think half the battle with that as well though is creating the space to let the conversation happen. Right. Because if you've got a, that falls on leadership, I think fundamentally to be able, because not everybody has the confidence to push back, you have to create an environment whereby that's almost encouraged, expected even. I guess.

Speaker C: Definitely, definitely that's the truth. And it's not the easiest thing to do. But this is what will work for the future, for the well being of the staff and also for the guests. Because no matter that the guests are not behind the scenes when we do our briefings or our uh, meetings, they definitely get the impact and the result. So I think it's lots more at the back of the business than actually seem to be from a guest perspective.

Speaker A: Totally Sophia. From a revenue management perspective, it's very numbers focused and it's uh, very commercially orientated. Sometimes commercial versus human is a thing. But how do you get that cohesion between commerciality, the necessary commerciality of a business, without it there is no business. But also kind of ensuring that the conversations that happen between commercial operation and frontline teams are all happening from your experience, I guess because you, you kind of look after multiple properties within the revenue management perspective, do you see this happening at any stage of your career?

Speaker D: I do see it happening and I also already see within the properties that I work with differences as well I think. And then especially because, well, I've done the job for about four years now nearly and I've always been like in a remote revenue management situation, uh, as well. So I'm not on property with the rest of the team, basically the hotel team. Um, so it's even more important I think especially for my job then to keep the conversations open, happening. But yeah, as you said, basically, yes, we look at commercial, but I feel like I need the input of nearly every other person on property as well to do my job as best as I can. Of course we look at numbers, we look at data, we look at what's happening but uh, we are missing kind of the whole proactive side and as you said, the whole guest facing side. So of course knowing that I know let's say I have significantly increased pricing to keep it very simple, um, significantly increased pricing and then guests have complained because the value is not there or let's say services isn't keeping up or the other way around service is amazing. Why are our prices still not kind of matching that service level and so on. So as easy as that, I think it starts already. But then in my day to day I need to for sure speak to sales on a regular basis. So sales people on property, let's say general manager as well to just have kind of the overview and the bigger picture and um, kind of main guidelines. Let's say if I have a big enough hotel that let's say works with groups because we mostly look at just transient kind of leisure revenue, we need anything or at least we need to keep the conversation with our groups, teams as well to make sure we are aligned between uh, different segments let's say. And then anyone else really I can speak to from the hotel because we do daily calls uh, as well. So anyone that pops in and says hello, I think I just also feel a bit closer to the team on property as again I am a bit further away let's say. But so yeah, I think definitely as much as possible because the more information I have the better I can do my job even from further away let's say.

Speaker A: Yeah, ah, it's, it's funny isn't it? It's, it's like in principle it's the most, it's the most simple concept in the world right is just have the conversation. But in, in reality sometimes because we're all pretty time poor, I think that's probably one of the, the byproducts of the um, of the world of hospitality at the moment is that it's easier said than done. So I, I suppose how, how could we, can we create a ah, place whereby people are just making time for the conversations that need to happen? And I appreciate that wasn't on the list of questions. So I'm asking you all to think on the fly here.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean well for me it starts just by blocking time. I have time blocked every day for kind of my specific hotels and then internally because then that's also the flip side. I work with hotel teams on a day to day but I also then work internally within my kind of revenue manager team of people in the office. So we have regular check ins on both sides. But then it's also of course making sure that you then keep enough time for everything else that you then need to do uh, on a separate basis or like your day to day job let's say. So I think already blocking time for me helps at least kind of keeping ownership of. Okay, I have it blocked in. That's what I'm doing now to not get carried away. But yeah, I think it just needs to be one of the main focus points let's say for both parties because as well can chase for conversation but it needs to come back as well. So I think for me as well the biggest thing is having an open enough relationship to make sure that both parties are in their best interest or it is in their best interest to speak to me, uh, to you know, kind of keep a uh, two way street with communication updates and whatever else.

Speaker A: Yeah. Anything to add into that? Martin or Rafaela?

Speaker B: Yeah, I would. It's building in thinking time and people underestimate that. And uh, I'll give you a classic example. A cabinet member, Secretary of State. Their diary is managed from 8 o' clock in the morning till 10 o' clock at night in 15 minute segments. And what will happen is that uh, that diary will be full and you know, if you get a sandwich at lunchtime you're doing well. But of course, and I've heard many a cabinet minister say to me, you know, I just don't have time to think things through because you'll Go from one meeting to the next meeting to the next and it just then becomes a process. And I think it's that ability then to have time to step back and think about what you've just done and how can I add value? And that is so important. And of course the problem is we're all time poor at the moment because, you know, we're all trying to do more for less, etc. Etc. So it's just keeping that perspective. The only positive that I can think of that came out of COVID it forced a lot of businesses, especially small businesses, to, to one stop and then look over the parapet and think, why am I doing it this way or what am I doing? And actually some of the businesses that survive came out a lot better because they'd had a serious rethink the reason for that, suddenly they had time to think about it.

Speaker A: Yeah, and same for humans as well. Right? I mean, I think it's probably the greatest individual shift that ever happened in, well, certainly my lifetime where people just had a moment to go right angle a minute. Am I where I should be? Am I doing what I, I should be doing?

Speaker B: That's right, absolutely, yeah.

Speaker A: Rafaela, anything to add into that?

Speaker C: Uh, I totally agree with uh, all of you. So I think you have covered the question really, really well.

Speaker A: Very good. Yes. Sophia, you raised a point actually, which again, sorry, wasn't on the list of questions, but which was really around just. And Martin, you also raised it earlier on around, you know, the remote nature of life now versus conversation versus connection versus all of these things. Has this improved our ability to connect in some way? Or do you think that we've still got a long way to go in terms of how we learn and uh, adapt to using what we've got at our disposable, uh, from uh, a communication outlet, uh, perspective.

Speaker B: Phil, the answer to your question is both yes and no. Again, I'll give you the classic example. Last week I was due to be in London twice we'd had the accident on the Midland mainline. All four trains were cancelled. So we were able very quickly to go on to teams and continue the business. Yeah, that wouldn't have happened before COVID But the other thing I think we miss sometimes is that personal interaction because, you know, you can do stuff remotely like this, but you don't really get to know the people or your colleagues. It's a sort of, of odd comment that you might have when you're pouring your cup of coffee, you suddenly find out someone's interested in cricket. So Next time you talk to them about cricket and you get to know people and the interpersonnel stuff and that, that I think we are losing through teams and zooms and all the rest of it because we don't have that human interaction. But of course, it also has quite an impact for the hospitality sector because, you know, the days of when you bring all your sales team together and have a, you know, you know, 24 hours or 48 hours in a hotel and all the rest of it, they've gone online, saves the company a fortune, but it's not doing us any favors.

Speaker A: Well, it is, yeah. Ah, And Sophia, from your perspective, you work remotely. Are you 100% remote?

Speaker D: 50% actually. So it's quite nice that we still do a couple of days a week in the office at least we work kind of together with, uh, our team, let's say, in the office. But of course, then with hotels, it might get a little bit more difficult because as well, we're a big team, big revenue team. We can't really go and fly around Europe, uh, every now and then to just kind of spend a couple more days here and there with hotel teams. I do try at least, let's say once a year, travel and kind of see the, um, own property teams as well also, because sometimes, I mean, still most of the people have their camera on. At least you still manage to see a bit of body language as we spoke earlier. But sometimes either that's not possible or people don't want to necessarily. So you. You tend to also speak to an empty screen, which is for me at least as Italian. So very kind of, um, full body language. Uh, and, yeah, very expression focused country, let's say. I think it makes it quite hard. So I do try to. But with hotel teams, it's harder.

Speaker A: Yeah. Just for me, as a hospitality person, I love people and so being around people gives me energy and, uh, all of that. But this comes back to what we're talking about earlier on. Everybody's doing different. So again, you can't assume that somebody wants something. Um, I was speaking to an organization last week who made the offer to their organization to go back to being five days a week in a fixed place or hybrid in a lot more, you know, flexible way. So they don't. They didn't have a fixed aboard, as it were, to go into to the office every day. And the office chose the flexibility because that's what they needed in their life at this time.

Speaker C: Time.

Speaker A: But some people do need the discipline of being able to go in and Talk about how poor England were last night or something like that to a couple of mates, uh, about the football or whatever. But um, I guess from your perspective Rafaela, you're still very much in the operation. So I guess the remote nature of the argument that we're speaking here doesn't really affect you too greatly or am I just assuming that.

Speaker C: Yeah, you're absolutely right. In my experience, um, mostly work in small family businesses, so small hotels pretty much uh, face focused and not uh, PC focused let's say this way. I def. I definitely recognize that technology helped a lot of the businesses to grow and bring people together that couldn't be before. But I don't think it's anything that would replace the in person, um, like meeting uh, with other persons and also as you said the body laggards and speaking with people closely. Ah, definitely. It's not same by speaking through a camera that you can actually not really see every side of a person. It's really easy to hide few things. Uh, some people quite often are being rushed into the video calls. It's always like a specific time. You don't have the time to relax as you said and uh, really meet the person on the other side and talk about further options or further suggestions. So I don't think that uh, it has helps a lot for a business to grow at the back. So it's mostly like an operating thing, just like a matter of time saving time nowadays. Uh, this is my opinion.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you're right about um, hiding things. I'm wearing shorts so nobody needs to say that, do they? On this. I would assume that you are too, Martin.

Speaker B: I'm afraid I am, yes.

Speaker A: Are we all wearing shorts? Why not? Yeah, but um, uh, yeah, anyway, right. I'm conscious of your time and I massively appreciate the time that you've given to the show. So ah, far there's so much more that we could speak to but I'm going to kind of move into a wrap up phase. So if we looked ahead five years from now, what conversations does hospitality need to get right if it's going to thrive from here?

Speaker D: I think a big one on this one might now be kind of the automation or like the focus on you know, putting AI or like automation, anything like that in which I feel like we're now in a phase of maybe adapting to. So I think probably getting the balance right with using that kind of technology, automation to enhance but not really replace the human, let's say people, business, nature like Rafaela said earlier. Um, so I think that might be kind of coming up as not only within kind of what we were speaking about conversation wise, but also kind of adaptation or like how we move forward to business wise.

Speaker A: I would say I think that's a massively important point and one that I don't think should be underestimated as to the importance of how we move forward. Because I come back to two things can be uh, true at the same time. One, AI is both the greatest potential help to hospitality but also a really big threat if we don't have the conversations because jobs will be displaced based at Europe. So how do we deal with that as a, as a, as an industry? I think is a very, very important conversation for us to have going forward. But also I think you know, it comes down to we've, we've spoken about so often that we have a recruitment crisis in this industry. For me my positive brain goes, well this is a great opportunity therefore isn't it? Can we address uh, a recruitment crisis with something that can help us support? I don't know. It's way above my pay grades at this time. But I think I would definitely be up for having that conversation on this podcast at some point. If anybody's out there listening and fancies it, then obviously reach out. Rafaela Martin Any other thoughts on five years conversations that we need to be having?

Speaker C: I think uh, my opinion is again as a person working mostly in small businesses to keep always the people in the center, no matter how technology grows those I think uh, the guest expectations are mostly coming uh, from peoples. So I would say uh, that like keeping people on the center this is, that would keep the business alive because what matter is the in the end is to know your product. So if we have like for example AI answering questions to the guests or if we have AI like having, having remote meetings and having for example persons that are managing reservations in the instance it doesn't really give the same result with the people that actually have met and know the product they are talking about.

Speaker B: Phil, if I could just add to that because I was, I was just thinking about it, what would it look like in five years time. But I think it's, it's about understanding what market you're in and if you. I would take an example of hotels. Um, before Christmas I stayed at, at a well known budget hotel not far from St. Pancras. Uh, I walked in and uh, there were four computer screens in front of me. I tapped in my reservation number. Out came a little bit of paper that told me what room I was in. Then I held a piece of plastic up to the screen, which was authorized the room. So off I trot to the room. It worked. I got in the room, it was nice, clean, everything else. The only reason I was staying in that hotel was I couldn't get the train back, back to Leicester in time. So it was really, really fun. So I went out, uh, came back again the next morning. I went down for breakfast and on the table was, uh, one of those, uh, QR codes. So I picked up the QR code, I ordered my breakfast, and lo and behold, somebody came and brought it to the table. And that was the first interaction I had with a human in that hotel. But I'm not staying there for the hotel experience. I'm staying there because I can't get one back. Now if I'm going to take my wife out for a weekend somewhere, it's the people experience I want. It's the quality check in, it's the people in the restaurant. It's the people and it becomes the experience. And I'm buying an experience, not a bed for the night. And I think that's probably quite a good distinction between the two is understanding what your customer wants. And I always remember a really good restaurant manager and. And there was a regular diner there, and he used to come and say, Ah, Mr. Smith, uh, I've reserved your usual table. And he'd say, well, in fact, he'd never had sat in the same table ever. But for him and his guests, they were hugely impressed that he had a usual table. And again, he knew the customer, he knew what he was trying to do, and it's that understanding. And that's why hospitality is a people business.

Speaker A: This, no doubt. God, I want to give you a standing ovation, Martin. Um, nailed it.

Speaker D: Little tear running down.

Speaker A: Um, yes. Right, well, uh, to wrap us up then. If every hospitality leader who's listening to this today could do one thing tomorrow to close the conversation gap, what would you recommend that be?

Speaker D: I would say do like Rafaela, walk through, um, walk through the floor. Speak to your people, people. Get a bit of feedback in and just, yeah, just listen for a day, maybe.

Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree with that 100%. It's walk the floor. And that's. When I was a general manager, I walked the floor.

Speaker C: I think the question that I usually make, like, uh, being serious and fun at the same time, I'm like, so what did you see today that I might haven't seen? So this is where you attract the information. Because, of course, being a leader and going on the floor helps. But of course, sometimes when a leader walks in, everything looks perfect because the leader is there. So I think approaching the team and being like, so what did you see today that I didn't see? Maybe will be good, maybe it will be bad. But you start a conversation like, what was the highlight of the day? So I think you start and, uh, you realize what has to be changed or what was, uh, like the highlight. And the team really liked today what they feel proud of. So I would go with that question.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that comes back to creating the space where people feel like they can do that. Right. And, um, there's an old NLP saying that was, there's no failure, only feedback. You know, you're creating that place. I mean, really, that's what conversations are in the end, right? It's your ability to capture some data that you perhaps didn't know before you had the conversation. And then what you do with that data is then how you move forward. And I have another saying in my head, I'm sorry, full of sayings. It's unbelievable, um, around, uh, the fact that that conversation without action is just whimsical nonsense, really. Conversation is the start of something. It is not the end of something. And, uh, I think that that's really important for me is that, that people just get that distinction. Right. And I'll come back to, to the chap that I referenced earlier on about just understand that you, you probably in the vast majority of circumstances, you think you know something versus what you actually know, and that gap is likely to be huge. So go and have the conversation and just close that gap. It's got the, it's got absolutely zero downside to doing it, uh, and could be the difference between success, success and failure on a day, a month, a year, for the entirety of your business and life. And I'm going to leave it there on a very philosophical note. I, uh, think that all that remains for me to say is thank you so much, guys. Really interesting conversation. As I say, there's way more that we could have spoken about, I am sure, but massively appreciate you making time for the show and, uh, wish you all the very best with your days ahead.

Speaker C: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

Speaker B: Pleasure.

Speaker A: Thank you very much.

Speaker D: Pleasure. Thank you for having us.

Speaker B: I'm in.

Speaker A: Today's episode of I'm in explored the conversation gap as a potential risk. Featured Martin Trenor OBE FIH Raffaella Chatsymarku MIH Ah, Sophia Meyer MIH and hosted by me, Phil Street FIH Big thanks again. Go to the IOH's video on Sonia Cresswell MIH for the artwork and branding and Leon Williams FIH for the music to say I'm in feature on a future episode, contact phil street@instituteofhospitality.org and to find out more about the IOH or to join our hospitality family, please click the links in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening and join us next time where we'll be looking at the evolution of the Head of Technology role.

Speaker B: Iohlet.