The Missing Fourth Pillar: Why Culture Needs Commitments, Not Just Values, with Hope Collins

Speaker A: Welcome to beyond the Boardroom, the podcast for leaders, change makers, and purpose driven souls who believe business can be both powerful and human. I'm your host, Jindamiri, founder of Jody Consulting, culture shaper, uh, connection creator, uh, and champion for authentic connected leadership. Here we go deeper than metrics and meetings. We explore the real story, raw moments and bold ideas that shape how we lead and who we become in the process. From workplace culture to conscious strategy, from self leadership to systems that truly serve. This is where heart meets business. So grab a coffee, take a breath, and join me as we go beyond the Boardroom. Welcome to beyond the Boardroom, leading with purpose and connection. Today's conversation is a practical look at culture, not as a concept, but as something that either works in real time or breaks under pressure. Hope Collins is a leadership, sales and culture consultant and the founder of Hope Collins Advisory. With over a decade in senior sales, leadership and recruitment, she works with organizations to close the gap between the culture they say they have and. And the one they actually live day by day. She's also the creator of the Commitments, a, uh, behavioral framework designed to sit alongside mission, vision and values as the missing fourth pillar of culture. Not what organizations say they stand for, but what people can clearly see, understand, and be held accountable to. What makes Hope's perspective particularly powerful is her background in sales. An environment where performance is visible, pressure is constant, and any lack of clarity shows up fast. In this conversation, we are unpacking why most culture issues aren't people problems, they're clarity problems. How the Commitments create real accountability, and what sales teams can teach every leader, uh, about building a culture that actually holds under pressure. Hope, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker B: Well, thank you so much. Firstly, can I say, can you come with me to every networking event so when someone asks what I do, you can just roll that out?

Speaker A: Uh, look, overall I can do that. The challenge may be current location because you are based in Melbourne, is that correct?

Speaker B: Y. Yes, I am Melbourne.

Speaker A: And you're rattle A. I am in Adelaide right now. I used to live in Melbourne and, um, miss it dearly. I will be down very, very soon. Probably before this podcast episode gets released, actually. But yes, I'm going to be, um, over there very soon.

Speaker B: Oh, fantastic.

Speaker A: So let's get started. I do want to go straight away into the question, um, so you've worked very deeply in sales, leadership and recruitment, so why do you think sales teams expose culture problems faster than anywhere else in a business?

Speaker B: I think because it is that pressure cooker. Um, and I think the other thing which I hate to say, but I think is probably true, is that uh, because you really need results, you are more tempted to hire maybe a little bit outside of your values. I think people really look at, you know, past performance and who they think will, will, will bring in the results that they need. Um, and don't go too deeply into values when they hire in sales culture. And it's just that competitive nature, um, you know, when you're needing to, to live off those wins, when you're cold calling all of the time, I think if you don' really set behaviors, that culture can erode really quickly.

Speaker A: Mhm. And why do you believe people hire outside the values? And is it the company values? Is it someone's personal values? What do you think it is?

Speaker B: M. I think it's probably outside of both a little bit. I think it's, you know, when managers are hiring salespeople, obviously they're hiring to get to a number, so they're trying to reach a goal and what they're looking for is who can actually get me to that goal. And so I think that is the first thing people look for. And I think the other, the other, the other tricky thing when you're hiring, you're interviewing is uh, I think people think sales is a, is just a confidence game. And I think it's probably more a resilience game than a confidence game. And I think sometimes people can present really well in interview, but if they don't echo your values and if they aren't, um, as resilient as someone else, then I think you quickly, um, expose those issues, those culture issues that you get in a team. I think one of the really interesting things I've found after, uh, hiring salespeople for over a decade is that if you actually do kind of go, let's hire someone just that's values aligned, that really understands what the job is. Because in most sales roles there'll be an element of cold calling, um, someone who can handle rejection, um, and keep moving and understand that that's actually just a part of the job. Then you can get people from such a huge background, such a variety of types of people that will succeed in the same way. You know, when we looked at output, if output matched, you know, if they were making the number of calls, often the numbers tended to match. Even though you might meet someone and go, oh, they're, you know, they're a classic salesperson, they've got all the training behind them. Um, and because I was in education recruitment, the other people we hired were a lot of teachers. So you'd sort of think, you know, the teacher's not necessarily going to perform as well. But actually teachers are very resilient and we're fantastic in sales a lot of the time.

Speaker A: And would you say it's not just the resilience piece but also a little bit of the connection building the people skills, the being able to relate to people, rather than maybe just the resilience? Because what I found with a lot of salespeople is this just push and push and push for a sale rather than actually listening to what the client needs and wants. So as an example, um, I believe we all get these random sales calls for health insurance or whatever it may be. Um, and I actually said to the person, oh, I literally just reviewed my health insurance last week and just signed up with a new provider. And that person just kept going, just going. It's like, have you actually listened to what I was saying?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Trap. A lot of sales people that are just so sales focused fall into their follow the script. They follow. Um, yeah, this, this pushy way instead of actually listening.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's hard because I think that the tricky thing is you need people who follow process. So you need people who will follow a certain follow up process to make sure that they're actually not just meeting someone and going, oh, I've got the sale and walking away and never following up. So you need that. But then that flip is you're exactly right. You need someone who will also listen and react in the moment and understand that you are never going to get that sale. If someone's just said that, you know that they've already gone somewhere else and you just keep pushing a script, you're doing more harm than good. Um, and I think sometimes it's those metrics that people put in place. When you put in the wrong metrics, like if your metric is how long do you keep someone on the phone? Then what you're rewarding is that behavior of even if they say that, ah, they're not interested and they've just moved, keep talking. Because that's the metric that they're judging. So that's, I think some of it's, it's that, you know, some of those common traps that people fall into is everyone wants to do a good job. Like I think, you know, people, no one wants to go to work and do a bad job. So if you're measuring the wrong things, then you're creating more problems for yourself. Yeah.

Speaker A: And look, I agree with you. Processes are super important, especially in, in Sales. I've worked in sales myself. Um, and I've even sent customers away and I said, you know what, this is the first prod. You know, this is the first that you're looking at this. You haven't actually looked at anyone else yet. You know what, Go out there and have another. Have a look at those as well. More often than not, it actually, uh, told more stories than just one. It told the story of I'm m confident in my product.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That it um, promise, uh, delivers what it promises. I'm confident enough to send you away and make comparisons and maybe realize either, yeah, it is a better venue or whatever my product was at the time, it is better offer that I get with me versus what I get somewhere else. Uh, it could be relationship or a chemistry perspective with that salesperson. Um, but most of the time people came back and even if they came back and said thank you so much for sending me somewhere else, does it actually suits me better?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The, the point where, where's the point in having someone, let's say a venue, because for me it was mainly health related. Where's the point in having a client at my venue, um, pushing for the sale? They do sign the contract, but then there might be just a tiny component where I knew exactly from the beginning. It might not be 100 what they want. And I know that competitor and inverted commerce can deliver that point. Aren't uh, I better off sending them to that competitor? Yes. I will lose the sale from this perspective. However, next time when they have something that suits, they will come back to me. And 99% of the time they did.

Speaker B: You're so right. And I think that's where good management comes in. That's where, you know, someone being able to see a bigger picture than just what happened in that one interaction. Um, I love, uh, a good Christmas film and it does remind me, remind me of, um, you know, when I was a kid, one of my favorite films was Miracle on 34th Street.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. Love that film. And, and in it, um, you know, they, the, the child's on the Santa, uh, slap and says, you know, I want this for Christmas. And the Santa says, oh, we don't have it, but you can go to gimbals down the street or they have it and everyone's really, you know, so mad about the management is, you know, furious. And then obviously everyone's like, oh, this is, this store's the best. They actually care about us. And then they come back and I think it's so much having that vision of who you want to be and, uh, what. What type of organization you want to be. And if you're someone who says, I want people to have their event here, regardless of whether it's the best venue, or if you say, actually, we want to attract the right kind of events so that when someone's here and they have an event, they're like, how was the venue? Fantastic. Because, you know, we've all been somewhere where you go, oh, how is the event? Oh, the event was great. The venue wouldn't recommend it. And it might not be that it's a bad venue, but it was just not the fit for that.

Speaker A: Correct?

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I think you're so right. But that it does require a leader who's got a bit of vision, who can see past that one interaction or that one sale.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Now, I do want to jump into the commitments. Um, in my work, I do talk a lot about values and not just being nice, fancy words on the wall, but actually living them and what that actually means to each employee working for the business. And if values are not lived within that business, where can we actually, collectively with everyone in the team, rework the values to ensure that we have a set of very strong values that actually people want to live by? And we hire HM in accordance. So with the commitments, what are they and what gap were you seeing that make you create them? Yeah.

Speaker B: So, um, what they are is they are four to six commitments. Obviously, they range from organization to organization. And what it's about doing is taking what are the things that we love about this organization? What do we want to keep? And making them explicit. So you declare what the commitment is, define it, um, then you demonstrate it, and they're in actual behaviors like, this is what we do. And then you draw the line, what are things that we will not do? So by the end, you have something where someone can come in and go, okay, this is so clear what you want from me. Um, so say, for example, there might be one where your commitment is about feedback. So you might say, we give and receive feedback as a part of how we work, not as an event. And so you demonstrate that by raising something directly and respectfully as soon as it matters. So, you know, okay, I expect that I don't have to wait for feedback. If someone's got a problem, they're going to say it straight away. And then you can hold someone to it. You can say to your manager, if they, you know, two or three weeks down the track, say, hey, three weeks ago, you can say, hang on A second. That's not what we're committed to. We're committed to saying in the moment. Um, and I guess the reason I came up with it is because I saw so many values, and none of them I would ever disagree with or say, oh, you know, I don't share that value. And I think that they're so broad. Like, I looked at something like integrity,

Speaker A: and you think, sorry, I'm laughing. I was literally thinking about that word. Yeah.

Speaker B: And you think, you know, bikie gangs may live by the value of integrity. It might mean something very different to them than it would mean to a corporate organization, but, uh, they might both 100% believe they're living that value. And I think when someone says, do you live by these values? If no one ever says no, then I think that's the, uh, red flag that there's an issue there. And it needs to be more specific because it feels like right now it feels like people are, uh, hiring and not feeling like the match is always right both ways. And I think we need to get more specific and deliberate and say, this is what we want. If you don't want to, you know, raise feedback, if you don't want feedback raised directly to you when it happens, then this isn't the place for you, and that's okay. Just think it helps us make better matches.

Speaker A: And though I believe also we have to teach people how to interview back, I think, um, so many times when I was interviewed, and I was pretty young at that point, I didn't know how to interview a company back. It was more like, I got to have an interview. Oh, my God, I have an interview. I'm so excited. I really want to work for this business without necessarily asking the right questions because I didn't know what to ask. And the amount of times I've interviewed people as well, where I just noticed there's actually nothing coming back for them to figure out if we're the right fit for them. And I feel there's actually a lot

Speaker B: of

Speaker A: knowledge gap on how to interview a company back.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I think. I think you're right. And I think it is, you know, on people to start doing that, to kind of go, how do I do that?

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And I think with organizations, they need to kind of look at themselves and go, have I ever interviewed someone? And at the end they go, this job's not for me. Because if that hasn't happened, then chances are, ah, you aren't explaining it correctly because, you know, there should be. Sometimes, like, I kind of used to see it as a bit of a win when at the end of it they'd go, look, you've explained it really well. But that's not for me, you know, like, especially things like that cold calling element. You know. I think a lot of people shy away from being really explicit about exactly how many calls you expect them to make or how cold it is. And I just think you are better to be upfront because otherwise in one or two weeks, you know, that person will go to lunch and they won't come back. Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So I think you already explained it, but I want to dive a bit deeper. How do the commitments show up differently to values in a day to day environment?

Speaker B: Okay, so I think when the commitments are laid uh, out really clearly the difference is people can hold them, um, hold someone to it. And it's really very specific when someone's not doing the thing that you committed to, say for example, you might have one that's we don't win at each other's expense. Very helpful in a, in a sales environment or a recruitment environment. Um, and one of the draw the lines in that might be we draw the line at hoarding information to protect your position. Now sadly in recruitment sometimes, and in my last organisation we were very, very um, definite uh, that we would not accept this behaviour. But sometimes what you heard stories of were people um, not sharing candidates with everyone because they had a candidate they knew was placeable. They thought, I don't have a job right now, but if I share this candidate with everyone then they'll get a job before I can give them a job and get my commission. So, you know, something as specific as ah, we draw the line of ordering information to protect your position. Now someone then did that, you can say, uh, that is absolutely, absolutely contradicts the commitment that you've made. Because I think the thing with the commitments is everyone has to buy into it. It's like to me something that you would say at interview. These are our commitments. If you can commit to this then you know, and it's a fit, then there's, you know, we can move forward. But if you don't want to commit to that, that's also totally fine. If you work in a different way but it's not going to work out. And then as soon as someone um, you know, does something that's, that's across the line or also when they're demonstrating those commitments, really easy to say, oh, it was so great to see you for example, sharing knowledge that helped the team, you know, that's one of our commitments. We really appreciate it. Um, because I think it's that thing. Values are just open to interpretation, but the commitments aren't. They're very specific.

Speaker A: I guess in a situation that you just mentioned as well. In the recruitment space where it's about, you know, sharing um, candidates potentially, I guess where a business sales wise or recruitment wise is so focused on commission, I think with commitments in that space in that way there has to be an adjustment to the commission as well. So for example, like the person that has given that particular candidate also deserves a component of the commission even if someone else placed them because that was a joint effort.

Speaker B: You're getting into some interesting territory here. I like it. Um, uh, look, the way we used to work it is we would always say it'll be swings and roundabouts. We didn't sort of go for splits because we would say, you know what, no one owns a candidate. It'll be swings and roundabouts. Yep. Someone will place someone you've interviewed, you'll do the lead up work and getting them compliant or all of those things. But it will come around to you. Um, obviously a lot of people do that splits um, because it does make the behavior um, much you're much more likely not to get those sort of behaviours. Um, and I guess in a way we did it the hard way in that we really wanted people to be values aligned and to do that. We said you just don't always get something like your wage um, is paid all the time. You don't always get something for everything you do and that's actually okay. Now did it suit everyone? No, it didn't. But um, yeah, it's a really interesting sort of uh, um, you know, way to look at it. I think of is it easier to use the commission structure to reinforce good behaviour or do you, do you hope the values do the work?

Speaker A: Yeah, but I mean even, even with the values. Right. And, and the commitments in this sort of commission based environment, I think for like at the end of the day sales are sales so there's always the uh, hunters and you know, the ones that are just really out for something. And even if, for example, let's say both of us um, can possibly place a client and we both organized interviews for that client and a third person actually sort of gave the client to us, right?

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Like I get, for example if I manage to place the client and you don't, that you then don't get a commission. But at the end of the day neither of us would have had the opportunity to even try place that person without the third person. So even if it's not a 50, 50 split of the commission, I just think that is actually more values aligned by saying, hey, you know, you supported me in being able to place this person, so I also want to make sure that you're looked after in that sense. Uh, that is for me. Yeah, me, that would be a values thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and I think it is kind of almost like we're, we're back in the circle of like those values being open to interpretation. Like we've just totally had had a different interpretation of how that works. But I think, I think you're right. You could totally look at it that way. And I've got to say, you know, there were so many conversations we had about this over the years. Yeah. Um, because it, it isn't, you know, there isn't just sort of one way to do it. And um, it's a, it's, it's in recruitment always going to be a tricky, a tricky conversation. But I think that, you know, the main thing you're looking for is, is people to have the candidate's best interest at heart and to know that, you know, um, never hold back an opportunity from them because that's just not the right thing to do.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Now, with the commitments being more explicit than values and being open to interpretation, what changes when expectations become that explicit?

Speaker B: I think your culture becomes the one that you explain it to be because I think so many people have an idea of what a culture is and then um, you can actually say this is what the culture is. It is a culture where, you know, for example, we are flexible, we have work life balance. And because it's explicit, you know, one of the things that you could say is, um, you know, we don't expect answers to emails after 5:30pm that can be a commitment. Because if you say you're going to have work life balance, what does that actually mean? Because it just means different things to different people. And what can your company actually, um, really stand. I guess the other thing, because I think a lot of people say work life balance, but to them that means, oh well, you know, I won't call you every day of the weekend or after 9 o' clock every day. But you know, the expectation is you check your emails until 7 and you work a 10 hour day. And I think it's the same with, you know, something like fun. You know, a lot of people have a value of fun. Well, at what expense? If fun is a value Then that means that if I feel like having fun and I've got to do something that's hard at work or I'll choose the fun thing, I'll go and play ping pong with someone.

Speaker A: And it depends on what you consider fun, right?

Speaker B: Totally. I wouldn't be playing, I'd be reading a book, you know, probably. So I think that's, that's where, um, gets much more, uh, easy to sort of look at the, look at the commitments and say, well, this is the kind of place it is because it doesn't always have to be as well. Like, um, you know, we, I think now we, we have these expectations of work that it will be everything to us. It will be the social. I'll have all my friendships there and it will, um, you know, give me all of the, the security and the, the things I need that, you know, I think we used to just sort of look for a paycheck. And I think it's come a long way in a really positive way. But I think, you know, I look at job ads and think you can't, there's no way that you can give all of these things that you've promised, you know, because it's, you know, there can be flexibility, but there can't be ultimate flexibility in most cases because you've got a business to run, you've got things that have to happen.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. A business just doesn't run on thin air.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So the Next point, I 100% agree with that. I've recently done a bit of a series in my newsletter on that, and that's around clarity. And that most underperformance is due to an issue with clarity. So I guess, especially in a sales context, what does that mean?

Speaker B: I think what it means is being absolutely clear on not only what metrics you want people to hit, you know, how many calls or how many meetings, all of those things need to be clear, but also it needs to be clear the behavior that goes along with them. So I think, you know, um, having a value like, you know, um, integrity is great, but again, some people think, oh, uh, it's still having integrity if, if I'm having a conversation on the phone with someone and they say they've got, they've just gone with another health insurance provider. And I keep talking because they're getting the information and that's going to be really great for them. Um, but I think when you have something more specific that says, okay, you know, when we're on um, M calls, if we get a hard no Then this is the step that we take next. You know, we're always wanting to, always wanting to push a relationship forward. You know, in that situation I think to me the call would be how about I call you in six months and see how you're enjoying that health insurance? You know, it's simple. But agree, yes, you've got a follow up, uh, but you haven't just ignored what the person said.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, I agree with that. So definitely be very clear. And I uh, think it's also like certain instructions are just not made clear enough to then follow. Um, and then we wonder why things are not done the way we want them to be done.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And I think it's also, you know, the idea of the commitments is that they're role agnostic, that you know, they every level um, go plays by the exact same rules. And so it's really clear to people how they're going to be managed. Um, because you know, it's spelt out, um, and I think it's also you know, like I think you can look at these commitments and say, because they're not as open to interpretations, values, you can look at them and say, well, what is actually important to this company? Because if they don't have anything um, around how people treat each other, for example, then to me I would think, oh, that that might be a bit of a red flag because I would want a commitment in how we show up for each other at work. Because I think so often, you know, in sales again you can get people who think that well I'm making money for this company and no one, you know, we've all seen it, no one here would be, would have a job if it wasn't for me making all this money. And so um, can you please go and get me a coffee? And you know, that sort of behavior. And so I think, you know, having something um, where it's about how we treat each other is also really important.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: So

Speaker A: besides that sales environments can easily tip into micromanagement. Um, in my opinion anyway, I've seen it. Um, how do leaders create clarity without over controlling?

Speaker B: And this is so interesting because I do think everyone's sort of feeling of what micromanagement is very different. For me it is about setting a structure that you say if you, if you hit this baseline you're doing a good job of output. Now if you're doing that output and then you're not getting the results, then ah, as, as your manager, then that's my issue to coach and I think what you need to do is let it breathe a little bit, let people do the output. And I think it's easier when you've got larger teams because you can look at people and go, okay, you know, if you've got 10, 15 people doing the same output now, if they're getting the same results and suddenly you're seeing those results dipping, you can start to think maybe there's a market issue there. Um, because I think, you know, in recruitment there have been, uh, a couple of tough years that people are now sort of coming out of. But I think at the start, everyone, you know, consultants yell market. And managers say, no more output or. But I think having an output that you think is the right standard. I'm, um, I'm one for making sure you've tried it yourself. You know, if I do, if I do two weeks of this output, what are the results that I'm going to get? M. And then just being able to sit back and go, well, they're doing the output. If they're not getting the results, let's go, um, on some meetings with them. Let's listen to the phone calls. Let's figure it out together and not make it that problem. That's not a problem with the consultant or the person. Something you sit with and you sit side by side and that's in the middle of you and you work on, um, fixing those results. Um, but I think if people are, are, you know, working to the metrics that you've set for them and you've said is a good output, then you just leave them to it. You don't need to sit next to them, you don't need to be watching them. You know, they should be. Most dashboards will show them if they're on track or if they're not on track. You know, those things will come out in the wash. But I think it's a really dangerous game to just let results be the only metric that you're measuring.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with that. So with your background in recruitment, how do you actually hire great salespeople?

Speaker B: Um, look, I think it is probably first of all opening your mind to, uh, sort of taking out any idea of a particular type of person. Um, I used to, like, I think he said, is it Pat Lechen who wrote the Ideal Team Player? I always forget his last name. But, um, in the Ideal Team Player, he talks about hiring for hungry, humble and smart. And by smart, he's talking about, um, emotional intelligence. And I think those three things are absolutely key. And if you have Those three things. And then you also look for someone who has that resilience, who understands what the job is. And we'll, uh, take some of those setbacks and move on. Like, you know, when I started in recruitment, you know, I'd done, um, I was a teacher and then I did a lot of time in retail area management. And so I just wasn't really used to the phone, which a lot of people aren't used to the phone anymore. So when I started, we had, um, a script. I found the script so hard to remember. So I was like, this script isn't really working, but I'm just gonna. And you're laugh this, I'm just gonna say. And it was, it was just schools were coming out. I'm just gonna say, hey, you know, it's hope I've got something really exciting I'd love to come and talk to you about. Can I meet with you? And the people who were around me were like, that is wild. But I got so many meetings off the back of it. And I think it's brilliant because people thought, felt sorry for me, to be honest. But, uh, you know, over time, once I got that, like, uh, I had that ability to kind of go, you know what, I've got a mortgage to pay. I can be resilient here. I'll get better at this if I just pick up the phone next time. I'll be a little bit better the next time and then the next time. And over time, you know, I got quite good at it. Uh, and then I think the, the other interesting thing with that is, you know, I think, um, when you don't do it, you then become not as good at it again. You know, um, sometimes I jump on the phone to people and people are like, oh, yeah, the sales director, you're going to be really good at this. And I'll be like, well, probably haven't been on the phone for six months. You're on the phone every day. You're probably better. I'm happy to sit there and next to you and do it. But like, don't, uh, think I'm going to be magic. Like, you know, I'll get rejected just as you would. Um, so, yeah, I think, I think hungry, humble, smart, and someone who is resilient can, can learn, can pick themselves up when they get those no's because they're coming. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, um, belt scripts are an interesting thing. So on one hand they work and on the other hand there has to be a little bit of your own flair. In it at the right moments.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um. Because, yes, they are written for a particular purpose, and they are written very often with the right wording and things like that. However, if you are just sticking to it too much without bringing a bit of yourself into it, I think people notice that as well and are less likely to buy from you.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I wish you were there when I started, because I'm a rule follower. So when someone gave me the sales script, I was like, you want me to say this? I will say this. But then when I couldn't, when I was struggling to memorize it, that's when I was like, oh, now I'm just. Now I'm going wild. I'm just saying something so different. But, uh, you're so right. Like, if at the start I've gone, okay, I don't need to say exactly this, but the flavor of what we're actually trying to say. Yeah, yeah. I think that's. That's where the magic is, you know, giving it to people and saying it's optional. You know, these are the points that aren't. But the actual script, you don't have to learn.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So what's the difference between holding someone accountable. Accountable and expectations are vague versus when they're explicit.

Speaker B: I think the. The big difference with that is. Is that. Huh. When. When they're explicit, it becomes, I guess, a fatal complete. Like the conversation is going to happen because you know that you've actually done something that is, you know, contravening the commitment. So I think that it makes difficult conversations far easier. Like, if I had to have a conversation around, you know, I was very structured. Um, so a KPI conversation is. Was never a difficult conversation to me because it was. This is the number. You didn't hit that number. Talk me through it. But it never, like, there was never any charge in it. I was never, um. You know, everyone expected that if they didn't hit that number. Okay, what time? When are we having this conversation? And I think the same becomes true when you have something like the Commitments. Because people know, okay, I know I've stepped outside of what is supposed to happen here. Um, and then that conversation just becomes so simple. Look, we commit to doing this. You didn't do it. Tell me what happened. Walk me through it. And then I think, again, it's so easy to sort of, you know, I think you should always give people that opportunity to say, is, uh, this something that you can commit to moving forward? Because it might not be, and that's okay, but we need you to, if you're going to work here, commit to that. Yeah.

Speaker A: So if a sales leader wanted, uh, to improve the performance of their team immediately and wanted to introduce the commitments to their team without overcomplicating it, what would be the first area of clarity to address?

Speaker B: I think you would look at what are your two, say, two or three most problematic behaviors? What are the things that are costing, uh, you, um, and then look at, you know, what are the two behaviors that if everyone did that, you would know that you would be far more successful. And then start building it around those, you know, say five. Five behaviors. And I think, you know, it might be, um, as simple as, you know, something like, we own the standard in our work and how we treat each other. You know, that's a simple commitment to make. But when you're saying that we own the standard, it's not the manager has to tell me, it's we all own the standard. And that, um, might mean making sure that you hold yourself accountable to your metrics. You've agreed to them. This is what they, ah, are. Uh, you hold yourself accountable and you come and tell me before you don't hit them. Because, you know, what we don't want is a conversation on a Monday about how you didn't hit them last week. If you're not on track, let's talk about that on the Wednesday of the same week so that we can get back on track. Yeah.

Speaker A: So if most performance issues in sales come just really down to the clarity and things like the commitments, why do so many leaders avoid being that clear? Is this controversial?

Speaker B: I'm not sure, but my first instinct. All about controversial. Well, my first instinct here is to say that it's because great salespeople are, ah, promoted to management, but they're not great managers. Um, and that's where you kind of get people who have, you know, a lot of the time they're charismatic. Um, people have wanted to buy off them, but they don't necessarily have a lot of structure. And, uh, and I think that's where you sort of go, I would rather have someone who is a structured manager who was perhaps not the sales superstar than have the sales superstar who doesn't have structure behind them. Because, uh, you know, I think when you're running a team, you need that structure. And when you have both, that's when you have the real magic. Because, you know, I've worked with salespeople where, um, you know, they. They didn't always hit their output numbers. In fact, far from it. In Fact, you know, sometimes, uh, I would think, what's happening within the day, but they would then come out with these amazing numbers. And you think if you actually did both things, if you did the work constantly, every day, and you were just as naturally charming as you are, then imagine the numbers you would have, you know. Yeah.

Speaker A: And, and I 100 agree with you. Very often people are promoted based on skills and capabilities in that particular role without being given leadership training. Leadership skills. Like a lot of my clients are actually like that. A lot of them have been really amazing in their roles.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: M. And then they come to me and say, or the organizations coming to me and say, hey, this person was such a great, you know, let's say, for example, salesperson. But now, like the team's complaining or I have high turnover in the team. I don't know what's going on with that person. And that's when I then say, look, they may have been your best salesperson. Have you provided them with an opportunity to learn how to be a leader?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And most of the time the answer is no. So that's where I then step in. Or, um, I mean, if that person wants a promotion, great. Why would you otherwise take out your highest performing person out of a role that is natural to them?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Can. If it's, if it's the promote. Because they actually want the promotion. Okay, great. Make sure they're equipped. Make sure as an organization you actually help your teams to succeed.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Rather than setting them up for failure. And then also it's this, maybe that person actually doesn't want to be a manager because they're great at sales. So let them on their sales desk. But maybe work out a way to, um, promote them in inverted commas in other ways. So yes, increase their commission or increase their base salary or, or do something that still shows your appreciation for them without necessarily giving them the title. Because yes, most of the time people take the title because of the higher pay, um, without taking into consideration that there's a skills gap somewhere.

Speaker B: And most of the time, like, I think if you just ask that simple question of why is it that you want to get into management? And if they don't want to get into it for the, the fact that they enjoy, you know, setting strategy or, um, coaching people, you know, if they want to get into it just because that is the next step that they see, then make a different step. Like, we can all make up a title, can't we? You know, you know, make up the title of Head of Business Development, whatever it Might be that's not managing people because what. Yeah, you risk so much, you take that person that's already, you know, billing and you, you know, uh, obviously they usually can't build the same amount because they're managing people. And then you can make the people under them unhappy. Often it's a, uh. Yeah, I think you're so right. Often it's actually not the right move unless that person really wants it. And then I think give them the training before they step into it. You know, have that, have that. Okay, who, who's wanting to step into management. Right. You know, let's have some training so that when the, when the role comes up, we're not, you know, we're not in it before we have any idea what it means.

Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. If a leader listening today wanted to lead with more purpose and connection starting tomorrow, what's the one behavior they would need to change first and why?

Speaker B: I, um, worked with George Richards, who was, uh, you know, absolutely fantastic leader and I was someone who really, I'm really task focused. So um, I sometimes forgot that spending some time getting to know everyone outside of like what the to work task was, was really important because it just, it's not something that, you know, I'm probably not overly naturally someone who is talking to every single person in the room, but what he did was every day in the office, he would take time to get out on the floor and talk to every single person and about something that interested them, not something that interested him. And I think what that built was not only huge connection, but people really wanting the business to win because they wanted, you know, that, that they wanted him to win as well. And I think that's, that's, you know, and that had such connection and it also, I think it gives you purpose because the business isn't anymore just about the business, but is it about all the people in it that you actually know? So yeah, I would say take, take the time to, to walk the floor and maybe even start with the person that you know the least, you know, in the, in the, in the company. Just say, you know, spend 10 minutes asking them about themselves, you know, what, what TV show they like, what do they like to cook? Um, yeah. And I think it just makes a huge difference.

Speaker A: It absolutely does. Yeah, I agree with that. Hope, is there anything else that we haven't addressed at this point that you would like to add?

Speaker B: Actually, I feel like we've covered off on it really well. I would say the only thing that I would add is when people are out There doing their job Ads, please, like, don't feel like you need to describe, um, the most amazing, fantastic workplace you've ever seen. Please just describe your workplace. Because, you know, I think what's happening is people are getting hundreds of applications. They're getting too many. That's becoming such a hard job in itself. Whereas if you kind of go, what am I looking for? What's this workplace like? And you describe it and you describe the role, you might get less applications, but I think you'll get the ones of the people that are actually a good match for you.

Speaker A: So, yeah, and then I'm just going to add a little bit, if you don't mind boarding properly. So they actually stay.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Uh, the onboarding, you know, it's a bit of work to get it there, but once it's there, retention is always so much better. Once a proper onboarding process and you don't have someone on the first day just standing around waiting for, you know, a person who's on the phone or whatever it is.

Speaker A: That's right. Well, hope, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And I love talking about the Commitments, so thank you for sharing that.

Speaker B: No, thanks for having me. It's been a really fun conversation. I really loved it. Me too.

Speaker A: And I will pop all your details into the show notes as well, um, so people can check out a little bit more about the Commitments as well. And, yeah, I hope to chat to you soon.

Speaker B: Great. Thanks, Jen.

Speaker A: Thanks. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Boardroom. I'm truly grateful to have you here. So if today's conversation resonated with you, I'd love for you to follow the show, leave a review or share it with someone who'd find it valuable. Your support helps us spread the message of purposeful, connected leadership even further. Uh, so until next time, take care, stay curious and lead with heart.