The Difference Between Healthy vs. Toxic Perseverance with Michael Scarano

Speaker A: Welcome to beyond the Boardroom, the podcast for leaders, change makers and purpose driven souls who believe business can be both powerful and human. I'm your host, Jindamiri, founder of JD Consulting, culture shaper, uh, connection creator, uh, and champion for authentic connected leadership. Here we go deeper than metrics and meetings. We explore the real story, raw moments and bold ideas that shape how we lead and who we become in the process. From workplace culture to conscious strategy, from self leadership to systems that truly serve. This is where heart meets business. So grab a coffee, take a breath, and join me as we go beyond the Boardroom. Today's guest is someone whose work challenges one of the most celebrated traits in modern leadership. Perseverance. We are often told that resilience, grit and pushing through are the keys to success. But what if the very behaviors we've been taught to admire are, uh, sometimes the ones quietly costing us the most? Joining me today is Dr. Michael Scarano, a former physician turned speaker, coach and leadership advisor. After more than two decades in healthcare, Michael shifted his focus from treating symptoms to to understanding the deeper patterns that drive human behavior, leadership and performance. His work centers around a concept he calls toxic perseverance. A pattern where success is fueled not by purpose, but by pressure. Not by alignment, but by fear, expectation, or unresolved experiences that quietly shape how we lead, work and live. Following the loss of a close friend, Michael was forced to confront difficult questions about achievement, identity, and the hidden costs of constantly pushing forward. That experience led him to explore why so many high performers appear successful on the outside while feeling disconnected, exhausted, or unfulfilled underneath. Today, Michael works with executives, teams and emerging leaders to help them move from performance driven success to to purpose driven impact, creating greater alignment between how they think, feel and lead. In this conversation, we're exploring the difference between healthy perseverance and toxic perseverance. The hidden drivers behind leadership behavior, why so many high performing cultures struggle with genuine connection, and how leaders can create success without sacrificing themselves in the process. Michael, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker B: Well, that, that was quite an introduction. I appreciate that. Uh, thank you.

Speaker A: You're so welcome and I'm really grateful that you are here today. So, Michael, let's start a little bit about your personal story, because I feel that is sort of at the heart of everything you teach today. And um, you. Yeah, you have, um, been telling me about the loss of your friend. So yeah, tell me a little bit about your personal story here.

Speaker B: Well, unfortunately, this all has come out of that tragedy. I. I can safely say you and I never would have met had he not done this. This was the farthest thing on my radar, uh, getting into writing. And I'm nearly finished with my book where we have a tentative launch date in middle of January. Uh, TED talk on this concept. On one hand I'm trying to keep my friend alive, his memory, because he was such a good impactful guy. And on the other hand I need to go through my own healing. And I found that writing and studying and, and reflection has been my sort of healing, uh, methodology. Uh, you know there's, there are a lot of self help books in the world and there's a lot of people with very strong opinions about what we should do to work through xyz. Um, and you know, I just, I just found that deep thought, uh, writing, reflection, uh, has been the best medicine that I could have provided for myself to understand my friend Fotus a little bit more. But really understand me. Um, the leadership, uh, program that I developed, it's called know yourself, know your audience. And when you put the emphasis on knowing yourself, uh, that that's not something people tend to do. Um, they, they look at the symptoms, they look at the results, they even sometimes look at the methodology, but they don't look at themselves inward. And uh, it's scary for a lot of people. It was for me. But now that I've gone through this process, it's not scary anymore. It's freeing and it's given me a different way to sort of reimagine healing and meaning and purpose. And so that's the kind of the mission I'm on. Uh, you know, I got that horrible call on Jan. Jan. 6 of uh, 2024. And after a few months of getting through the shock of it, I've been sort of focused on trying to help people more in a macro sense and, and using my life, lived experience, some of my knowledge that I learned along the way and all the schooling I've had, uh, to um, to bring this message to people like you and your audience and you know, who knows? You know my, my goal is to receive a message from someone that I never would have met. And, and the message is just thank you. Uh, that would to me be uh, like the best. I would love to hear that.

Speaker A: So, yeah, we'll see. Well, let's hope that after this episode you, you get at least one of those messages saying thank you. Um, I can definitely relate to the concept of finding yourself or knowing yourself because at the end of the day, when we grow up, we are so shaped by our parents the people in our environments. And a lot of the time we are just a version of them to an extent. And when we grow up and we are sort of in this inverted commas rebellious phase, that is really when we often break free from that and get to know each other. But how deep do we actually really go? Especially when we don't learn how to go deep. So, uh, I can definitely relate to the fact that writing helps a lot in finding the version of who you were always meant to be. And I think it's a, uh, it's a never ending, never ending learning experience as well.

Speaker B: It sure is.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's a freeing one as well.

Speaker A: Oh, most definitely. Yes. So what was one of the questions you couldn't stop asking yourself during that whole journey for yourself?

Speaker B: Well, the, the immediate question after my friend, uh, shot himself was why. Why on earth would some, would he, would he do this? You know, we. Unfortunately in the United States, uh, I believe suicide is the ninth leading cause of death. And by no stretch of the imagination is what I'm doing an anti suicide message or anti suicide campaign. I mean, that's reserved for a different audience. And that's not what I'm doing. It's just that event caused me to rethink everything. Um, I feel that I have to say that because I don't want to assume that I have some kind of answers, uh, to why people go down that path. I think I have an understanding of the potential of why. But really, as I thought about his decision and you know, when I, when I, I can't underscore how shocking this was, this was not the guy. He wasn't even a thought to be on the list of people I've known in my life that would do something so extreme. Um, he was loved by everyone and he never met a stranger. Uh, he was everyone's best friend. I say that all the time. It's a broken record, but it is true. I mean that is. He just encapsulated kindness and he had this way about him that just made him so easy to be with, to laugh with. And um, he listened with intention. He really cared and he showed it. And he showed up too. So after I got through, why on earth would he do this, the next question I ask is, could I be ever in that position of such loss of hope that that's the only answer? So I, but I really thought about that. Um, I've definitely had a lot of dark days in my life making know, a myriad of mistakes through my own dysregulation. And through my childhood, and the ADHD that I have, the learning disabilities, the. The. The abuses that I suffered, lots of. Lots of shame and, you know, could I ever get there, really was the question. And then I'm a dad of three children. Uh, we'll get back. We'll get into that later. But you know, what. What had my children endured? I know my home life with my parents growing up wasn't great. Uh, my parents fought a lot. Uh, and my dad had depression, bipolar one with psychosis. And he was. He was a handful. I knew he loved us somehow. Um, but it certainly didn't feel that way. And in my kids grew up in not a volatile home, not until the last couple years of the marriage, but I know it wasn't great. So now I'm, as a dad, and I'm not sure if you're a parent. I don't know that. But for the parents out there who would do anything for their children, when those kind of tragedies happen, you really just want to be around your family and hug your kids. And. And as I really obsessively thought about their path and the struggles they're having today, I thought, my gosh, uh, I gotta stop this generational crap right now. I don't want them to be 58 years old like I am now, with regret and doubt, self doubt and all those icky things. Uh, have to have. Have to even consider if this is. If. If taking my life is a. Is even an option. Like, I. I think they're doing pretty well, but I think they also are hurting. And that has revealed itself in our recent dialogue. But I, um. Yeah, so what. What did I think about after? Why did FOTUS do it? Was, am I capable of doing this, too? And how can I prevent this kind of loss of hope in my children, assuming that they might be thinking that way? Um, you know, they did not grow up even remotely close to how I grew up. But there was anger in the house. I take that I raised my voice. I mean, that's. That's how my father spoke to me. He rarely spoke to me. He was always yelling. But I know there was some yelling, and I'm hypersensitive to it, so I want them to be whole. So this really went from why did FOTUS do it? To what about me? And, oh, my gosh, what about my family? And then as I started interviewing people, I realized, wait a minute, a lot of people go through this. I don't think there's a human being walking the planet that doesn't have some kind of childhood trauma of some, you know, something.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So we all struggle the human condition, Right? That's what we do. Um, we struggle. We persevere. Oh, but how are we persevering? Is our perseverance coming from a place of toxicity or health? And that's how I came up with the phrase toxic perseverance is we make it in life. Humans do, we succeed. Some don't, but most of us do. On some level, there is success. There is a persevering quality to us, which is very closely, excuse me, linked to a survival instinct. And that's the argument I make in my book, um, that toxic perseverance is really, really in that category of survival. You're persevering. And even highly persevering, as we consider success on earth is financial. I know a lot of multimillionaires that are miserable, um, because they're coming from this place. You said it nicely in the introduction that they're coming from a place of pressure rather than this. This purpose. And I think so. That was a long answer to just say, I really thought about fotus. Me, and then my kids. And then that spilled out into. Wait a minute. I think. I don't think my experience is unique. It may be it has a unique quality to it, but the. The general experience that we share is not unique. Life is tough sometimes. Um, and how we adapt and react, you know, at the core of toxic perseverance is that it is rooted in a subconscious mindset, a framework that is set up early in life. And. And it. And it builds, uh, over time, we have these insults, and over time, we have more insults, and they just sort of compound on each other, and we end up with an internal narrative. And as when I. When I speak with leaders and I work in. When I work in leadership, you can do a disc. You can do the emotional intelligence stuff, which I'm certified in, and I do those. But if we're not talking about the. The. The foundational aspect of the. Why their personality is the way it is and why their emotional, uh, intelligence is where it is. That's the toxic persevering part. That's the foundation is, okay, we've got to start. We got to really figure this out. Um, not to wallow in past, uh, challenge or abuse, but to understand it and just go, okay, you know, all right, this is the. This is the hand I was dealt with metaphorically. And this is. This is why my personality is the way it is. And that kind of knowledge is Very freeing, I think, um, at least it was for me. So that's kind of, that's where I'm living.

Speaker A: Um, there are a lot of things that you just mentioned, so one of them was um, about you raising your voice towards your kids because that's what you experienced from your father. And um, you were sort of saying like he loved you in one way, shape or form, like in a weird way. And I think even though I'm not a parent, I think every parent loves their children in their own way and not always the way we want to be loved or we see it, um, on TV or what people say it should be. So, and not always in a healthy way either. So I, I would agree with you on that. And that breaking through that generational experience I think is really, really important. And so many people have started working on that. And there's also so many people that could really benefit starting working on that. That, that's one of those things. Um, then in terms of the survival, I think there are so many people in survival again due to nervous system regulation or other experiences in their life. And when you said that you, you know, so many people that are millionaires that are not fulfilled or not happy. I guess it comes back to this whole thing of money doesn't buy you happiness. It can to an extent elevate your happiness if you m. Create that financial wealth with a purpose and intention in mind. So if you, you know, if you have a purpose that you've already set out to have and then you create that wealth to support that purpose, I think that's a whole different story to just having money to hope to be happy one day.

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah, I agree. I mean, that's exactly right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Money doesn't suck, but it doesn't. It's not the cure. All right. It's um, but it is curious that many high achieving people and that can be high achieving in athletics, it can be money, it can be, you know, whatever. But these, the people who are go getters, um, oftentimes what I found is they're running from something, they're chasing something, uh, they're running away. Uh, they don't have a full understanding or comprehension of what it is or why it is they're doing what they're doing. Um, that's why I, I feel as I've written this book and it's sort of changed shape a few times. You know, this, this really is what I'm, what I'm hoping people will get from the book is that I want to put Them on a journey. And. And it. It's a journey rooted in what I call compassionate curiosity. And we talk about, uh, how curiosity is. It's a really good thing, curiosity. If you're a curious person, you can't also be a judgmental person. And if we just maintain our curiosity about life, people we work with, people we love, and really attempt to face things through a curious mindset. Well, I say you should be hyper curious about you. Um, but you need to do it through a lens of compassion. And, uh, how I handled myself over the years was when I would make a mistake, I'd scream at myself, I would cuss myself out. I was so sure that my mistakes were because I was stupid or I was a bad person or. And that was the narrative that kept playing. And it's subtle. Um, I think a lot of people don't give credit to this piece that I call Alignment, which I say through the lens of toxic perseverance is how you think, feel and behave. And if they're not in congruence with each other and something's off, that's a sign. You gotta wait a minute. You know, I feel. I think, I feel okay, but I'm certainly acting not okay. And I think, uh. And I'll jump into this now, but one of the exercises I do when I speak, um, is I have people think of five people in their life that they revere, respect, admire, love, right? And I say to parents, if you have five children, they get one spot. Okay? Like, you can't do that. Like, it has to be five, right? Because I'd be like, I have three kids, so there's three. Um, but what. What's. What's fat? I think I froze. Uh, okay, now I'm back. Um, I think what's fascinating about the exercise, and it's an intentional exercise because at this, I've done it enough times that I know it's going to happen and freezing again. I'm back now. I. So I say, you know, write it down. I. I prefer that they write it down. And so after they do that, it takes a few minutes. I, I then ask, um, how many of you wrote yourself down? And almost no one does. And, and. And then this even more revealing part is I say, okay. And then we go through the exercise and I talk about it, and then I say, okay, now that I've given you permission to put yourself in the top five, will you. And still most people don't. Now they. Now that they're reflecting on who they are, now it's even Harder. Because what do people do? Right. They evaluate through their survival brain, which is just survival. There's nothing positive about chopping your arm off if there's a tree hitting. I mean, that sucks, but you're gonna live and you're not gonna have an arm anymore. So when people start really thinking about themselves through a survival lens, it's not positive. And that shapes everything going forward. That shapes their relational abilities, their leadership capabilities. It's. The whole picture now gets skewed. And I think that kind of an exercise is eye opening. And, uh, that, that my big thing is this whole idea of compassionate curiosity, among other things that we'll get into later. But that's how it starts. You got to start thinking, uh, from a nonjudgmental place.

Speaker A: Yeah. So do you believe that is one of the reasons why high performers struggle to recognize toxic perseverance in them? And how can someone tell whether pursuing excellence is something. Yeah. That they're simply running away from or something that they actually generally want to do?

Speaker B: It's a great question, Jen. If you read my book, the answer

Speaker A: is you have to send it to me all the way to Australia.

Speaker B: I will as soon as it's. As soon as it's published and printed. Um, it's a multifactorial approach. Right. And I used to do, when I was in health care, I was a big, My big statement was, I treated a lot of chronic pain people. And to get to being a chronic pain patient, which is. There's a definition for it. It's six months of pain. It's unrelenting. Well, okay, fine. But in order to get to that point, it was. There's a multitude of reasons. Most of them are psychological. So as I bring that metaphor here, how does someone know? How does a high achiever know? Well, it's a multifactorial problem, and you need a multifactorial approach. So the check in I think people can do is just that simple. Thing is, how's my alignment? Am I, am I in congruence with thinking, feeling and behaving? I don't, I feel unsettled, but I'm doing okay. There's evidence out there. I'm successful, but I don't feel right. That's a, that's a, that's an indicator. And we're so quick to blow it off. Especially if you have money, Right? Well, I'm fine. I got 10 million in the bank. So what's my problem? No, if, if you're feeling off, you're off. Go with that. That's it's like so simple, but, but it's not easy. I get that. So I, uh, so when you get granular like that, and it's again from a place of compassionate curiosity, there's no room to hurt and judge yourself anymore. It's just about, okay, what is this? And then as I walk people through compassionate curiosity leading to gratitude. Now gratitude is a peculiar topic. Well, let me ask, when I say gratitude, what do you think of God?

Speaker A: There's so many things. Um, well, first of all, gratitude for being thankful to have things in your life, even just the ability to breathe and wake up in the morning.

Speaker B: All right, being thankful. What else do you think of?

Speaker A: That's probably the main one, but, uh,

Speaker B: this is a typical response and I love it. You did it perfectly, Jen. And we didn't even set it up, by the way. This is how everybody responds. Well, it's being thankful for the things I have. I have my breath, I have my health, I can, I have two legs, two arms, I'm a reasonably attractive person, I'm smart. Yes, those are great things. That's not what I'm talking about.

Speaker A: But also, for example, I'm grateful for being, watching a sunrise and observing nature, things like that as well. So it's not just about me and, and the things that I have in that way. But, um, yeah, the sun rises.

Speaker B: Well, I, I look at gratitude. I, I, I added to that because I think that is gratitude and I think those are great things to, to possess and seeing a sunrise and you know, hearing a great joke or eating a great piece of food that you love those, I mean, yeah, I, hearing a beautiful song, your first kiss, you know, all these things, I mean, we can go on and on, right? I look at gratitude as I analyze it through my toxic, persevering, uh, sort of theory as gratitude must include self forgiveness. Okay, so what do you mean I have to forgive myself? I'm worth 20 million bucks and you know, I'm still married, my wife kind of likes me or whatever. Okay. No, I mean, what I mean is after you go through this compassionate curiosity and you see that the challenges that you've had and you have a greater understanding, there will be humility in that. We are not perfect animals. We have all hurt people. We have all probably been hurt by people. So there's no perfection here. And I know this sounds grossly simplistic, but those are typically the things that are missed in my opinion. As I've grown old, I realize that really is the simple things. Um, so when you Go through a real curious time where you're just thinking and you're using compassion so you don't jump off a bridge because maybe some people's paths aren't so great. Um, uh, you'll find that the gratitude you have to be where you are today can become overwhelming. Wow. I made all those mistakes and I'm still here. I endured so many hardships and I'm still here. So the self forgiveness part, people that are in a toxic, persevering loop, there is some self condemnation as a part of it. For some people like me, it was the largest part. Generally speaking, the women that I've interviewed, that is not the largest part. I think it should be. But I mean, I mean, look, we do some bad things, but the gratitude is through the lens of compassionate curiosity, is being thankful for your story, for the lessons you've learned, for the resilience it built for.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: And that has to, that has to have a forgiveness part to it. You can't just go, okay, yeah, I did those things. No, you have to say, no, no, no, no, I did those things and it wasn't good. And you have to stop beating yourself up. That is a full, full froth, uh, psychological experience. I recognize and acknowledge. I accept it. And now I've got to let it go. And we truly don't let go until we forgive ourselves. You know, they say there's a saying in the Christian faith that when I forgive you, Jennifer, for doing something to me, it's not about you, it's about me letting go of that, that strain that it's, it's hurting me to be, to harbor. Why would you harbor towards yourself? And I can't, uh, I can't tell how many people I talk to that just hearing that, they're like, oh my gosh, yes, I can forgive myself. That's great. That is the gratitude. You have to have the gratitude for you. Which is why the program is called Knowing Yourself. Right. So you, yeah, ah, knowing yourself, you got to forgive yourself. And then you move on down the, the latter. But I want to give you a chance to chime in.

Speaker A: So the perspective of putting the, the forgiving yourself and letting go into the gratitude part of life is actually very interesting because of course, in my, my journey, I have definitely, uh, had those moments of acknowledging the things that I didn't do so well. And at the time I did the best I could with the resources I had. And then later on reflecting on it, realizing, well, it probably wasn't great, but forgiving myself for that so yes, I have that in the letting go bucket, but I never considered putting that into a gratitude part of it. So I definitely like that angle of it.

Speaker B: I appreciate that. So.

Speaker A: No, definitely. And, um, I would, I would also tell you if you were, if I wasn't sold, but it's definitely m. Let

Speaker B: me just add one other piece about this self forgiveness thing. This jumps into this whole values, uh, concept. A lot of people, uh, don't do a value analysis. And when people do a value analysis, they typically layer their values in terms of their roles. So you can't really, in my opinion, it's just my opinion. I have no research to prove this except all the researchers that I've read about. Um, if you don't have a, a baseline understanding of forgiving yourself for the challenges that you've created, your part in your journey, then how can you develop a value structure? I don't think you can. Not an honest one. So when we go, when I go through people's value structure, it's only after we've acknowledged this organism, you and what you, what have you brought to the table? And when I'm dealing with leaders and we go through the personality profile and all that stuff, my question to people in corporation is, so how do you show up? How do you think you show up? And then I do a 360 and they go, holy cow, like, not like this. Like I didn't realize. Oh my goodness. Okay, well that's the toxic perseverance piece. That's the lack of alignment piece. And what it really is is a lack of self honesty. Yeah. Because if you can be honest with yourself, then you can let it go and forgive yourself. That's the key. That's what we're so afra of. I don't want to think about the times that I hurt my children when I yelled. I don't. Why would I want to think about that? It's, it's horrible. But I have to, and I have to acknowledge it. And then I gotta let it go. And the only way I let it go is if I give myself some compassion. Like, come on, Michael, you were doing the best you could. I mean, I wasn't half, you know, throwing stuff and hitting them. That's not. No, I, I want to be very clear, right? I wasn't this like, madman, but I didn't do it right all the time. And I can remember a few instances where to this day, I was walking my dog today and I thought of an instance that happened with my daughter when she was 7 and I just went, oh God, uh, Michael, what were you doing? So I have a choice now. I can forgive myself or I can do what I've always been doing. Guilt, fear, shame, worry, anxiety about certain things. Um, so yeah, anyway, moving on, you,

Speaker A: you started building a nice bridge into the leadership work that you do. So many leaders are celebrated for their ability to push through adversity and you know, being resilient or perseverant. Um, and I want to quickly also mention when you talked about the disc profile earlier, um, and sort of saying, you know, you're interested in not why they're in a particular, like not what their particular area is, but why they're in that area. And that's how I love working with a disc profile. For me it's not wanting to know, okay, you're this, this and this for the purpose of this, this and this. For me it's the purpose of okay, why are you there and how can we get you more balanced? Um, but in the leadership space, what are some early warning signs that leader has crossed that line between healthy resilience and toxic perseverance?

Speaker B: What in your opinion are some of the top. Let's try and do the top two or three challenges that are common among leaders. Challenges meaning why they're ineffective. What do you, what do you think and what have you found? Well, to be some of the common.

Speaker A: Yeah, based on the work that I do with leaders, um, it has often been very much about their communication and clarity. Um, in their communication, that is one of the things. But I wouldn't necessarily consider that as being part of perseverance or resilience. Um, there is, um, also the leader that likes to carry it all because of perfectionism most of the time and struggles at delegating. So they are sort of the top two things that I see a lot.

Speaker B: So those are huge, huge drivers of toxic perseverance. And I'm glad you said that. Right. And just briefly I'll go through some quick comparisons of toxic versus healthy as I see it. So toxic perseverance is a pressure driven construct and healthy is purpose driven. Toxic persevering, need to prove rather than express. It is fears based, fear based rather than values based. It's reactive instead of intentional. It's very rigid instead of adaptable. The biggies are it's self protective instead of self aware. Now that that's a biggie. It's identity protective versus identity expressive.

Speaker A: Hmm. Mhm.

Speaker B: It's worth seeking versus contribution oriented. Great leaders want to have people succeed, correct. It's outcomes Focused toxic is outcomes focused. Healthy perseverance is process awareness. Understanding the details and the intricacies of the process is important because as a leader, if you have 10 people in your charge and you understand their strengths, weaknesses and idiosyncrasies, you'll be able to align them in a place where they will be most successful. That's the process aware understanding that is so important. So you can be a leader who's just do this and do that and get it done. Those are the so called D's, right? They're very, the process doesn't matter to them, they just want it done. Uh, the C's are very process oriented, but they're not very friendly. They're just, you know, and if you're not, if you're not doing what they say, you're an idiot. Right? So they have to understand. And the other thing they have to understand, each of the styles has its own positives and negatives to leadership. They're all effective leaders and they can all be ineffective leaders. But I want to get back to your thought. You know, how do they, how do you see it? Well, you're not going to see anything unless you've analyzed yourself. And uh, my guess is in your work, some of the most frustrating leaders are the ones that just don't get it. And what is it that they don't get? It's just that they don't want to see themselves for who they are because that is incredible, incredibly intimidating and unnerving. Um, especially for a leader who already has, uh, dysregulation, who already is not, uh, effective. You know, when you say it's, well, it's ineffective communication, I say, yeah, that's, that's probably number one in all cases. It's always communication. But why? Well, the toxic perseverance that they're carrying from their dysregulated nervous system is why. That's what, uh, that's what, that's the bold statement I'm making. You can do discs until the cows come home. If you don't get the person to understand who they are, they'll benefit from the work we do, but not as much as if they can truly embrace their whole being and understand. Like when I did a huge contract with a company locally here and I had these guys crying in the room with me and we went granular because you have to if you want to affect serious change. And what was the number one complaint of upper management? Lack of communication, especially between levels. And this guy, when I first met him, he was saying that. As if it wasn't his issue, I was like, dude, you're actually above everybody. Like, it's like, yeah, it's you. And it was. And he was a high. I. And he was, you know, good guy and everybody liked him, but he was inconsistent and he. He didn't pay attention. He wasn't. He. He would. He was. The inconsistency was the real biggie with him. And so I think that people are not going to see it unless they see themselves. That is why my program is called know yourself, know your audience. And I. I mean, I just. I guess I can't underscore that. Might. That's one of the working titles for my book right now is know yourself. The other one is, uh, you are enough. But, uh, I don't know where we're going to land with the, um. Uh, but I really. I know I'm beating the dead horse here, Jen, and I apologize for that. But I do think that, um, that's really. That's the gig right there, is you have to pay attention to who you are. Um, and then from that everything flows. You can now do an honest values assessment. M. You know, one thing that I've noticed, as I've interviewed more and more corporate leaders, one of the attributes they look for in the people they hire is this idea of urgency. Urgency. These guys need to get stuff done. They got a budget, they got deadlines. You know, these. These lower managers have no idea what I'm going through. Uh, okay, well, have you expressed that to them in a man. In a. In a meaningful way where they understand that urgency is an important attribute? You know, they talk about it a lot, but they're not teaching it, they're not expressing it, they're not communicating that. Um, and integrity is another big one for them. Yeah. Say what you mean and mean what you say. You know, that kind of. You know that. Yeah. Simple stuff. But anyway, I'm sorry again. I talked.

Speaker A: Well, that's the idea, right? I'm interviewing you, and I think one of the reasons why, when we had the. The pre. Chat, um, to this interview, we did get along so well because we, at the end of the day, teach a lot of very similar things. The importance of knowing yourself in leadership before you can lead others. Because how you lead yourself will reflect on the way you lead others. Um, it will improve your communication. And I think even when you know yourself, there's still work to be done on the way you communicate because receiving communication is also very different. Um, and it's perception and it's um, again working through past traumas as well on how you perceive communication as well. So there's so many different layers to that. And even if you know yourself, how can you support someone else to uh, get to know themselves in a, in a meaningful way as well? So there's so many different layers to that. Um, and, and that's I think, why, why um, we definitely decided to do this interview together because. Yeah, there are just so many, you know, uh, sim. Similar layers to, to what we both do.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, one important question I have for you is so you. We had this conversation earlier that one thing about, you know, uh, that someone can be incredibly successful but deeply disconnected at the same time. So this whole thing, someone can be a multi millionaire and be unhappy. Why does that happen? And do you think many leaders build careers around proving something rather than expressing something?

Speaker B: Yeah, I do. I mean the short answer is yes. Um, I think. All right, well, so biologically, what is the number one human instinct to survive? You can argue number two. Number two, I think reproduction is up there. I think the sense of belonging is up there. When you get into what Maslow did, I mean that wasn't hard science, but it's pretty. The basics of Maslow are solid, but I think number one is not. Arguably survival, that is our instinct. The reason why we have a hippocampus and an amygdala in our brain is exactly for the purpose that it serves. Which is that is where your subconscious mindset is stored. And isn't it interesting that it's in the deepest recesses of our brain so that we don't access the traumas that we had and endured? But research is pretty clear now that most of our daily thoughts, feelings, behaviors are rooted in subconscious traits.

Speaker A: Up.

Speaker B: Uh, up. Uh, you know, USC did a study. I think it's like 90 to 95% of our daily activities and mindset activities are rooted in the subconscious. Let's just say it's 80%. It's, it's a large percentage. So that means if I have stored things in my subconscious that aren't so great, that's where my behaviors, thoughts, feelings, that's where my alignment, my alignment is coming from my subconscious. So um, so bear with me for a second. So if that is true and the, the so called now successful executive who's got a lot of money, if their subconscious is just like yours and mine, which is rooted in these traumas, unmet needs, painful setbacks, and they're unresolved, they're not even touched, our subconscious is driving our behaviors with unwittingly. So I have a great example for you. I had this nice young lady who is on the team in the. In the company that I was hired to work with. And I said a comment to her one day. I said, I've been told, and this was right or wrong. I kind of goofed on this one. I learned a lot from this. But the result of what I said, which is what I want to focus on, that whether or not I should

Speaker A: have said, said, yeah.

Speaker B: So I said she wanted to rise up to a higher position. And she said, I don't think so, and so likes me. And I said, well, not. Not the person she was talking about, but another. An equal of her m shared with me that there's some kind of perception out there. Now, that was probably where I went wrong. But her reaction to that was, what is the perception? And I said, well, if I had to give you a perception based on our interaction, you're pretty pissed off most of the time. You carry an heir with you. You just do. And she laughed. She goes, I know. I go, well, okay. So that started. I'm like, um, why are you laughing now? Is that a nervous embarrassment laugh, or does she actually think that's pretty funny that people think she's angry? And she said, well, you know, I guess when you get a gun pointed to your head, you know, when you're 18 years old, it does something to you. Nice. Let's just say our conversations from henceforth were pretty remarkable. Pretty remarkable. So we uncovered something by accident. She's had all these significant traumas, and she shared a lot more with me. Um, and she cried a lot. And, you know, lots of tears, lots of, um, lots of tissues. Um, but the breakthrough was she could start to forgive herself. She didn't have to always be on edge. And that's. And that's how she described it. She said, I just feel like I'm on edge when I come here. I go, yeah, I get that. So when I brought it back, I said, you know, you've said to me in the past, you feel like you're on edge when you get here. Are you on edge all the time, or just when you're here? And then she thinks about. She's like, well, yeah, pretty much all the time. Okay, so it's not the job. It's your perception of you. And I think the reason why I'm bringing that up is to answer your question, I really think that because our survival instinct is so strong, rightfully so. Um, you know, Carl Jung is quoted in saying, you must bring the unconscious to the conscious. You have to. Otherwise, you know, it's futile. You're just not going to advance yourself to where you want to be. And there are a lot of people out there who have very lofty goals for themselves, and that's great. But if, uh, you're the common denominator of your challenge and you are not willing to address it, acknowledge it, look at, and whatever you want to, whatever superlative you want to put in there, then it is futile. But all those things that we, you know, communication, urgency, um, integrity, all those values that we put out there as these words are meaningless. If you are operating from a system that is fundamentally damaged, that is the subconscious. Uh, that's, that is the whole essence of knowing yourself. Bringing that subconscious out not harshly, but compassionately just to, just to give yourself a little insight on how you're showing up. How, how is your reaction to this? Does it meet the, the, the, the, the, the temp, the temperature of what's going on right now when you react in xyz? What is that? Is that, is that the person deserving of it? Or are you reacting from a place of pain? And when you start twisting things around like that, it does, it really does change the, it changes the whole ball game. I don't know what metaphor I can use now.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, very, very much agree with you, uh, on everything that you said. So if someone recognizes themselves in today's conversation and realizes they have been operating from toxic perseverance, where do they start to work on themselves? To get to themselves or to get them to know themselves better? Uh, like, what's one practical shift they can make this week?

Speaker B: Well, I'm a big proponent of writing things down, not journaling. I think journaling is good, it's effective, but it's overwhelming. Yeah, I think it's okay to have a session with yourself and write.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And try to get to the bottom of what it is. What are you feeling right now and why? And I will tell you, admittedly, Jen, I've been going round and round with this about, uh, how does someone start on a healing journey? I honestly think there's a million ways to do it. I think it's different for everybody. But I do think writing really creates. It's slows you down and it gives your brain and your mindset through writing. It slows it down and it starts to help make sense of things. And the only reason why I say that is because it worked for me and I am a First class knucklehead. I used to be just first class knucklehead. But it was, it was, it was the action of writing and thinking and writing and thinking, thinking that really started to get me moving forward. But it's also thinking through the lens of compassionate curiosity. I really want to understand this. I had, I had a client that she just was convinced that her childhood was the best childhood. She, I mean, my parents, I asked her a question, I said, so in this beautiful Disney childhood that you had. Sounds amazing. Was there anything that you can think of that happened, say between your parents or between your parents and your siblings? She goes, you know, wait a minute. You know, my parents used to beat me with a switch when I didn't clean my bedroom the way they wanted. I'm sorry. I said, I said, you said beat you because you didn't clean your room the way they wanted. Which tells me you cleaned your room. Yeah, she was, yeah, oh, uh, and they said, go clean your room. I cleaned my room. You know, I was good. You know, I listened. And boy, did the flood, the floodgates open up. And that was just through my questioning. But if she had been writing, that would have come. I believe it would have come up. M. So I think the first thing is to do the discipline. If you really care about yourself, go write your story down or type it out or speak it, dictate it into your phone. Uh, for those that don't like to write. But I do think the syntax of writing and the connection that happens through the internal capsule of your brain really, really makes a difference. I really do think that writing is important. Typing.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Michael, I really love this conversation, but unfortunately we are coming to an end. So, uh, I have one more question for you. And after that, if there's anything that you want to add that we haven't discussed but you really want the listeners to take away today, uh, please do share that as well. But my last question is, if a leader listening today wanted to lead with more purpose and connection starting tomorrow, what is the one behavior they would need to change first and why?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, that depends on what the behavior is that's preventing it. But I'd say whatever is preventing it, don't do that anymore. Very good, I'm afraid to say, because it is so ridiculously simple.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Listen more and ask more questions. That's it. You know, people will tell you, yeah, and yeah, they're going to be selfish ones in the group, they're going to be unreasonable ones in the group, but generally Speaking if you just listen more and ask more questions, um, you'll get farther than you ever have. I also think, um, valuing people is really important. Um, you know, we had a kid that was, ah, basically a mess in this one. On this one team, he was just a mess. But he showed up. He never took off. The patrons of the company loved him. People that frequented the company loved him because, uh, he was friendly. But practically speaking administratively, he was a mess. So instead of the manager when I first started working with him, calling him an F in this and a no good that it got to the point where over time that manager was like, he does have value. That's right. It's your job to find it. Yeah. So to the leaders out there, start honing in on what value the people that are working under you bring to the table and exploit it to your benefit, but mostly to their. Yes. Um, the square peg, round hole thing. Don't do it. If someone, if you know, just using the disc. If someone's a high, I don't give them a task that creates. Requires focus and follow through and writing and all the disciplines that a C naturally has. Um, why would you do that? Why set someone up for failure? So it's incumbent on the leader to understand knowing their audience. Right. Knowing yourself, you got to know your audience. Like who, who do I have on my team and where can I put them? That's going to benefit the organization, it's going to benefit the actual person, and it's going to benefit your leadership and your, your goals. So. And that's again, it's, it's ridiculously simple, but nobody does it. I mean, m. Just like it sounds amazing. It amazes me.

Speaker A: Yes. I, I 100 agree with you on that, but I guess that keeps both of us in a job.

Speaker B: But. Yeah, well, for sure. Jen. And it's widgets, right? It does not. I've worked in a car company, a casino, a construction company. It's the same thing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Same problems. Same thing to me, for me, because, you know, it's all toxic perseverance. Right. And, and, and I think, you know, that, that, that's a, that's a bold claim to make. Uh, but you know, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Right. Anything else that you want to share with the audience today?

Speaker B: I could go on for hours.

Speaker A: Same.

Speaker B: No, I guess, uh, you know, as I ended my TED Talk, uh, you are enough is true. And you know, don't believe the naysayers. Learn who you are to the best of your ability, uh, understand what your true talents and gifts are. We all have them. You know, uh, value others. You know, the other thing we didn't get to are, you know, the last two pillars of my healing journey for people is this idea of authentic vulnerability and purpose. M. And I. And I purposely put authentic and vulnerable together. I call it authentic vulnerability. And what, when you read my book, you'll read is people can be vulnerable, but to a point. So if they're authentically vulnerable, they're. They're being fully truthful, fully transparent. Now, I'm not saying you go and you share all your stuff with people. That's not what I mean. What I mean is, is when you share, what part of the narrative are you protecting yourself from? Um, that's the key, is you don't not share, uh, because you might feel bad about yourself. Certain things you don't share. I get that. But authentically vulnerable people are in the arena. They're the ones sweating. They're the ones that are taking the hits because they've gone through the other stages of gratitude and compassionate curiosity, and now they're mature enough to stand on their feet and be authentically vulnerable, which I think is really important. Anyway, I know you gotta go. This has been great.

Speaker A: This has been great. And maybe we get to do another round to finish everything off that we haven't covered today. Um, closer to your book launch as well. So we can put all the details for the book in there, but I'll put all your details into the show notes as well so people can find you and connect with you and also are updated on the book launch.

Speaker B: That's wonderful. Thank you. And. And, uh, how. Where. Where will this be launched? On YouTube.

Speaker A: It will be on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple podcast. Yes, all, uh, right.

Speaker B: Awesome.

Speaker A: Perfect.

Speaker B: Jennifer, thank you so much.

Speaker A: Thank you. And we speak soon.

Speaker B: I hope so. I look forward to that.

Speaker A: Me too. Bye. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Boardroom. I'm truly grateful to have you here. So if today's conversation resonated with you, uh, I'd love for you to follow the show, leave a review, or share it with someone who'd find it valuable. Your support helps us spread the message of purposeful, connected leadership even further. So until next time, take care, stay curious, and lead with heart.