Legacy Leadership

1 00:00:03,520 - > 00:00:04,000 SPEAKER_00: All right. 2 00:00:04,160 - > 00:00:05,599 Thank you so much for joining us today. 3 00:00:05,679 - > 00:00:08,720 My name is Mark Mitford with HR Catalyst Consulting, and I've 4 00:00:08,720 - > 00:00:12,080 got the pleasure of actually having a wonderful conversation 5 00:00:12,080 - > 00:00:15,839 that I'm looking forward to today, of actually talking to uh 6 00:00:16,000 - > 00:00:17,519 Jay Lee Whittington. 7 00:00:17,679 - > 00:00:22,719 And Jaylee is the dean of the Satash and Yasmin Gupta School 8 00:00:22,719 - > 00:00:25,199 of Business at the University of Dallas. 9 00:00:25,519 - > 00:00:28,399 And um I was gonna say this too, Jay Lee. 10 00:00:28,480 - > 00:00:31,679 I'm gonna just say you're a visionaire, you're a leadership 11 00:00:31,679 - > 00:00:37,119 coach, you're a storyteller, you're a boundary spanner, and 12 00:00:37,119 - > 00:00:38,560 you're always a teacher. 13 00:00:38,719 - > 00:00:41,119 So I love that introduction. 14 00:00:41,200 - > 00:00:44,320 That's on your LinkedIn profile for folks who want to get on uh 15 00:00:44,399 - > 00:00:46,560 to follow uh Jay Lee on LinkedIn. 16 00:00:46,640 - > 00:00:48,079 But thank you so much for your time today. 17 00:00:48,159 - > 00:00:49,200 I'm looking forward to the conversation. 18 00:00:49,439 - > 00:00:50,799 SPEAKER_01: Well, I appreciate the opportunity, Mark. 19 00:00:50,880 - > 00:00:52,479 SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for inviting me. 20 00:00:52,880 - > 00:00:53,520 That's great. 21 00:00:53,679 - > 00:00:54,479 So thanks so much. 22 00:00:54,560 - > 00:00:58,399 So I wanted to so we wanted to focus on today's topic is going 23 00:00:58,399 - > 00:01:00,399 to be around legacy leadership. 24 00:01:00,719 - > 00:01:05,200 And I wanted to start out with first of all, first off, uh Jay 25 00:01:05,280 - > 00:01:08,560 Lee, what is the concept and specifically, what is the 26 00:01:08,560 - > 00:01:11,519 concept of legacy leadership in your definition? 27 00:01:11,920 - > 00:01:14,719 SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, you know, Mark, it really is a model 28 00:01:14,719 - > 00:01:15,760 of servant leadership. 29 00:01:15,840 - > 00:01:17,920 So there's a lot of things that I talk about in legacy 30 00:01:17,920 - > 00:01:20,879 leadership that will resonate with people that are that are 31 00:01:20,879 - > 00:01:24,000 familiar with servant leadership because I think ultimately 32 00:01:24,000 - > 00:01:25,439 servant leadership is the way to go. 33 00:01:25,599 - > 00:01:29,200 But the the idea of legacy, uh, a friend of mine actually is a 34 00:01:29,200 - > 00:01:30,400 pastor friend of mine. 35 00:01:30,640 - > 00:01:34,239 He shared a book a while back, and it was called Legacy Now. 36 00:01:34,640 - > 00:01:38,079 And it the in the book there was this image of you know, you get 37 00:01:38,079 - > 00:01:40,959 to heaven and you sit down at this banquet table, and there's 38 00:01:40,959 - > 00:01:45,359 this long, long, long, long, long, long list of people that 39 00:01:45,439 - > 00:01:48,560 that, you know, way, way, way back influenced somebody who 40 00:01:48,560 - > 00:01:50,400 influenced somebody who influenced somebody who 41 00:01:50,400 - > 00:01:52,719 influenced somebody that touched your life. 42 00:01:53,040 - > 00:01:57,359 And then, because there's no time frame, you could also see 43 00:01:57,359 - > 00:02:00,000 the future, and you could see this long, long, long, long, 44 00:02:00,159 - > 00:02:03,359 long list of people that you had an impact on, either directly or 45 00:02:03,359 - > 00:02:04,000 indirectly. 46 00:02:04,159 - > 00:02:06,239 And so that was this idea of legacy. 47 00:02:06,400 - > 00:02:09,439 And and and then so I started thinking about that idea of 48 00:02:09,439 - > 00:02:12,879 legacy and and then thinking, well, it's not just what's going 49 00:02:12,879 - > 00:02:14,639 to happen when I die. 50 00:02:14,800 - > 00:02:18,560 It's not just what's going to happen at when people give a 51 00:02:18,560 - > 00:02:20,319 eulogy at my funeral. 52 00:02:20,479 - > 00:02:25,120 And I started thinking about legacy now, that that living and 53 00:02:25,120 - > 00:02:29,039 leading in a way that we can have an impact now and for 54 00:02:29,039 - > 00:02:29,919 generations to come. 55 00:02:30,080 - > 00:02:34,719 So that's kind of where this legacy idea started, I think, 56 00:02:34,960 - > 00:02:36,159 marinating in my mind. 57 00:02:36,240 - > 00:02:38,879 You know, it's like a seed was planted and it marinated in my 58 00:02:38,879 - > 00:02:39,039 mind. 59 00:02:39,120 - > 00:02:43,840 And and and I have an image that um that I that I think about 60 00:02:43,840 - > 00:02:46,719 when I think about this idea of impact now and for generations 61 00:02:46,719 - > 00:02:47,199 to come. 62 00:02:47,360 - > 00:02:50,240 And you we've all done this, you know, we've all uh when we were 63 00:02:50,240 - > 00:02:52,719 kids, we may have done it even after we became adults, we just 64 00:02:52,719 - > 00:02:53,599 don't admit it. 65 00:02:53,759 - > 00:02:56,960 You took a big rock and you stood on a bridge and you threw 66 00:02:56,960 - > 00:03:00,159 the rock in the in the pond or you threw the rock in the in the 67 00:03:00,159 - > 00:03:02,960 river or or the lake or whatever, and there was a 68 00:03:02,960 - > 00:03:03,599 splash. 69 00:03:05,120 - > 00:03:06,719 But then there was a ripple. 70 00:03:06,879 - > 00:03:07,039 unknown: Right. 71 00:03:07,280 - > 00:03:09,520 SPEAKER_01: And so when I think about I think about this idea, 72 00:03:09,599 - > 00:03:12,319 is that I want to I want to make a splash, I want to have an 73 00:03:12,319 - > 00:03:16,240 impact now on the people that I that I that I coach and that I 74 00:03:16,240 - > 00:03:18,240 lead, that I teach, that I work with. 75 00:03:18,479 - > 00:03:21,520 But I also want to I want it to ripple out, you know. 76 00:03:21,599 - > 00:03:25,199 I don't want it to just be about that one splash, but I want to I 77 00:03:25,199 - > 00:03:26,159 want it to ripple out. 78 00:03:26,319 - > 00:03:30,639 And and you know, I think a lot of times, particularly as a 79 00:03:30,639 - > 00:03:34,159 teacher at any level, we don't always see the full impact. 80 00:03:34,319 - > 00:03:37,439 You know, we we know that we taught those those students in 81 00:03:37,439 - > 00:03:40,639 that particular class in that particular year, and and we hope 82 00:03:40,639 - > 00:03:43,919 we had an impact on them, but we don't always get to see that 83 00:03:43,919 - > 00:03:44,319 impact. 84 00:03:44,479 - > 00:03:47,599 We don't get to see how how how did the story turn out. 85 00:03:47,759 - > 00:03:50,479 And uh I'm fortunate, I've been at this so long. 86 00:03:50,639 - > 00:03:53,039 I'm actually getting to see how the story's turning out. 87 00:03:54,719 - > 00:03:58,319 You know, I so we think about it, my my my children and and 88 00:03:58,319 - > 00:03:59,199 now I have grandchildren. 89 00:03:59,280 - > 00:04:01,039 I'm seeing it, I'm seeing it ripple. 90 00:04:01,360 - > 00:04:05,599 And then I have a student that she was my student about about 91 00:04:05,599 - > 00:04:09,680 20 years ago at the University of Dallas, and and now she's a 92 00:04:09,680 - > 00:04:11,120 professor at TCU. 93 00:04:11,520 - > 00:04:15,439 And she invited me over last last fall to be a guest lecturer 94 00:04:15,439 - > 00:04:16,000 in her class. 95 00:04:16,079 - > 00:04:19,199 And I got to see up close and personal the impact that she's 96 00:04:19,199 - > 00:04:20,480 having on her students. 97 00:04:20,560 - > 00:04:23,680 And so so we don't always get to see the ripple, but in a couple 98 00:04:23,680 - > 00:04:26,160 of cases, I'm getting to see the ripple, and that's that's very 99 00:04:26,160 - > 00:04:26,800 rewarding. 100 00:04:27,120 - > 00:04:28,480 SPEAKER_00: Wow, that is great. 101 00:04:28,639 - > 00:04:30,000 That is that is so awesome. 102 00:04:30,160 - > 00:04:35,439 So it's a so what point, Jaylee, did this was it, was it 103 00:04:35,439 - > 00:04:38,480 something like you said, you mentioned marinating and kind of 104 00:04:38,480 - > 00:04:39,920 brewing within your mind? 105 00:04:40,000 - > 00:04:43,279 Was it was there a time where you said, you know, at this 106 00:04:43,279 - > 00:04:46,720 point in my career, like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, you 107 00:04:46,720 - > 00:04:50,079 decided you were going to start really, really diving in and 108 00:04:50,079 - > 00:04:52,240 digging into the concept of legacy leadership. 109 00:04:52,399 - > 00:04:53,680 What does that look like? 110 00:04:54,160 - > 00:04:56,639 SPEAKER_01: Well, Mark, I I can go right to the time and right 111 00:04:56,639 - > 00:04:57,120 to the place. 112 00:04:57,199 - > 00:04:59,759 And it was in this very room that I'm sitting in. 113 00:05:00,000 - > 00:05:03,680 I had just finished Patrick Linchoni's book, uh, The Five 114 00:05:03,680 - > 00:05:07,920 Temptations of a CEO, which I think is is really really good. 115 00:05:08,000 - > 00:05:13,120 And and I was sitting in my big chair up here in my in my den 116 00:05:13,600 - > 00:05:16,560 game room library, I'm not sure what to call it. 117 00:05:16,879 - > 00:05:20,480 And and and I actually, you know, I I this this is the 118 00:05:20,480 - > 00:05:20,959 honest thing. 119 00:05:21,040 - > 00:05:21,519 I said a prayer. 120 00:05:21,600 - > 00:05:23,439 I said, Well, that's what the world thinks about leadership. 121 00:05:23,600 - > 00:05:25,920 I wonder what scripture thinks about leadership. 122 00:05:26,000 - > 00:05:29,680 And and and I and I just flipped to my Bible, that's not the way 123 00:05:29,680 - > 00:05:32,480 to do it, and and started reading in one of Paul's letters 124 00:05:32,480 - > 00:05:33,680 to First Thessalonians. 125 00:05:33,759 - > 00:05:37,040 And and as I was reading, I I saw these leadership principles, 126 00:05:37,120 - > 00:05:41,439 and I was like, wow, that, wow, wow, and and so I started, I 127 00:05:41,439 - > 00:05:42,160 just wrote them down. 128 00:05:42,240 - > 00:05:46,399 It's like some boldness amid opposition and and worthy of 129 00:05:46,399 - > 00:05:51,519 imitation and uh you know being affirmational, all those things. 130 00:05:51,600 - > 00:05:54,879 And and that was at a time when I was in transition. 131 00:05:54,959 - > 00:05:59,680 I had already accepted a job, the the job at the University of 132 00:05:59,680 - > 00:06:00,000 Dallas. 133 00:06:00,079 - > 00:06:02,560 I'm I'm in my 26th year at the University of Dallas. 134 00:06:02,639 - > 00:06:04,800 This was spring of 2000. 135 00:06:05,199 - > 00:06:08,879 And and and I was leaving Texas Wrestling, and and and so that's 136 00:06:08,879 - > 00:06:12,160 when it started, and I started just toying with that and 137 00:06:12,160 - > 00:06:16,240 playing with that, and and and the last lecture I gave at Texas 138 00:06:16,240 - > 00:06:19,439 Wrestling was around these legacy leadership principles. 139 00:06:19,680 - > 00:06:23,040 And and I had two students that walked up to me at the end of 140 00:06:23,040 - > 00:06:23,920 that class period. 141 00:06:24,079 - > 00:06:26,720 They knew that I was leaving, but uh, and and they were 142 00:06:26,720 - > 00:06:27,360 tremendous students. 143 00:06:27,439 - > 00:06:29,920 One of them was a medical doctor that had come back to business 144 00:06:29,920 - > 00:06:32,240 school because he needed business training for a couple 145 00:06:32,240 - > 00:06:32,879 of the world even. 146 00:06:33,920 - > 00:06:36,720 And uh he said, you know, JD, that was really good. 147 00:06:36,879 - > 00:06:38,800 You ought to do something with that. 148 00:06:39,279 - > 00:06:41,199 And uh that was Woody Kegler, Dr. 149 00:06:41,279 - > 00:06:44,560 Woody Kegler, and uh Trisha Pitts, who was one of my 150 00:06:44,560 - > 00:06:47,040 colleagues there at Texas Westland, she she also said the 151 00:06:47,040 - > 00:06:47,360 same thing. 152 00:06:47,439 - > 00:06:49,040 I said, Well, I'll tell you what, if y'all will help me, 153 00:06:49,120 - > 00:06:51,920 we'll we'll make a paper out of this and and we'll send it to a 154 00:06:51,920 - > 00:06:52,319 conference. 155 00:06:52,399 - > 00:06:53,279 And and we did. 156 00:06:53,439 - > 00:06:56,720 And then we sent it to the Leadership Quarterly, uh, which 157 00:06:56,720 - > 00:06:58,800 is the premier journal in our field. 158 00:06:59,040 - > 00:07:02,160 And it the paper got accepted and published in the Leadership 159 00:07:02,160 - > 00:07:02,639 Quarterly. 160 00:07:02,720 - > 00:07:07,680 And so so it kind of took on an academic life, but in a you 161 00:07:07,680 - > 00:07:10,959 know, apart from the academic life, it really became a 162 00:07:10,959 - > 00:07:14,160 framework that I I really started really trying to flesh 163 00:07:14,160 - > 00:07:14,319 out. 164 00:07:14,399 - > 00:07:17,040 And it kind of became the framework and the template for 165 00:07:17,120 - > 00:07:20,000 for the leadership classes that I teach at the University of 166 00:07:20,000 - > 00:07:22,959 Dallas and the framework that I that I teach when I do 167 00:07:22,959 - > 00:07:24,639 leadership development workshops. 168 00:07:24,720 - > 00:07:28,560 And and I guess you heard it uh there at the business navigators 169 00:07:28,560 - > 00:07:29,040 that morning. 170 00:07:29,120 - > 00:07:30,720 Uh, you heard those those principles. 171 00:07:30,879 - > 00:07:34,160 And so, so it's been you know, it's been a work in process, and 172 00:07:34,480 - > 00:07:39,360 and honestly, I I continue uh to revisit it and see things that I 173 00:07:39,360 - > 00:07:42,560 didn't see before or see applications that I didn't see 174 00:07:42,560 - > 00:07:42,800 before. 175 00:07:42,959 - > 00:07:46,959 And so it it really is to me, it it is a living framework that 176 00:07:46,959 - > 00:07:53,199 continues to to be revised and and and you know hopefully uh 177 00:07:53,199 - > 00:07:54,879 keeps current and stays relevant. 178 00:07:55,120 - > 00:07:58,720 SPEAKER_00: So well, I'm sure you know I I well I love first 179 00:07:58,720 - > 00:08:02,879 of all, I do love it was a real impact on your when you did 180 00:08:02,879 - > 00:08:06,000 present at the business navigators meeting and um 181 00:08:06,240 - > 00:08:09,360 hearing you speak and just the passion you had because I've 182 00:08:09,519 - > 00:08:12,160 I've heard lots of good speakers, but you are definitely 183 00:08:12,160 - > 00:08:15,199 one of the one of the top speakers I've I've seen. 184 00:08:15,360 - > 00:08:16,639 And uh you're welcome. 185 00:08:16,800 - > 00:08:19,120 And also just because of your passion for it, you can just 186 00:08:19,120 - > 00:08:22,000 tell this is something this was uh a set of slides. 187 00:08:22,160 - > 00:08:24,639 These were this was something that you truly believed and you 188 00:08:24,639 - > 00:08:26,319 were you're hugely passionate about. 189 00:08:26,480 - > 00:08:31,120 So do you do you think it's it's a is it a mindset? 190 00:08:31,360 - > 00:08:34,320 Would you think it's a mindset you mentioned a framework you 191 00:08:34,320 - > 00:08:37,600 were building out, but do you also think it's a mindset of how 192 00:08:37,600 - > 00:08:41,200 leaders actually conduct leadership and the way that they 193 00:08:41,200 - > 00:08:43,840 actually build some of the leadership attributes they have? 194 00:08:44,240 - > 00:08:46,240 SPEAKER_01: That's a great, that's a great question, Mark, 195 00:08:46,320 - > 00:08:49,120 because I think you know, uh I think back to to the idea of 196 00:08:49,120 - > 00:08:49,840 servant leadership. 197 00:08:49,919 - > 00:08:53,120 I think you first have to have uh a mindset or a philosophy. 198 00:08:53,200 - > 00:08:56,000 You've got to think that this is the right way to lead. 199 00:08:56,240 - > 00:08:59,679 And then as you think about it and and as you you know you're 200 00:08:59,840 - > 00:09:02,399 you're aware that this is a framework that you want to 201 00:09:02,399 - > 00:09:06,399 embrace, then that that mindset, that philosophy, if you will, 202 00:09:06,559 - > 00:09:08,159 that informs your behavior. 203 00:09:08,399 - > 00:09:11,519 And and I so I do, I do think it, I think it's a mindset. 204 00:09:11,679 - > 00:09:15,759 And and for me, just in general, I would say that you know the 205 00:09:15,759 - > 00:09:18,000 the foundation for all leadership is character. 206 00:09:18,159 - > 00:09:20,080 If we don't have character, nothing else matters. 207 00:09:20,240 - > 00:09:24,000 But I think it really the the first principle of that I that I 208 00:09:24,000 - > 00:09:27,759 think I talked about is that as a leader, it's not about me. 209 00:09:27,840 - > 00:09:29,120 And I've got to have that mindset. 210 00:09:29,279 - > 00:09:32,639 I've got to have that humility that it's not about me, but it 211 00:09:32,639 - > 00:09:33,600 starts with me. 212 00:09:33,679 - > 00:09:36,399 Uh it starts with me, once again, back to character. 213 00:09:36,480 - > 00:09:38,960 It starts with me being the kind of person that you would want to 214 00:09:38,960 - > 00:09:39,279 follow. 215 00:09:39,360 - > 00:09:42,480 It starts, you know, that I'm the kind of person you'd want to 216 00:09:42,480 - > 00:09:44,399 join this effort with and and stuff. 217 00:09:44,559 - > 00:09:48,799 And so uh, you know, the the legacy principle there is being 218 00:09:48,799 - > 00:09:51,200 worthy of imitation, but it's not about me. 219 00:09:51,279 - > 00:09:56,559 And and so it who I am is more important than what I do, but 220 00:09:56,559 - > 00:09:57,919 what I do flows from who I am. 221 00:09:58,080 - > 00:09:58,960 That's the way I say it. 222 00:09:59,039 - > 00:10:02,399 That my being is more important than my doing, but my doing 223 00:10:02,399 - > 00:10:03,679 flows out of who I am. 224 00:10:03,759 - > 00:10:06,480 But so I think it does tie in with your idea that it is a 225 00:10:06,480 - > 00:10:07,440 mindset first. 226 00:10:07,600 - > 00:10:12,080 It's a mindset first, it's not just a bunch of uh techniques 227 00:10:12,080 - > 00:10:15,919 that we can go off and learn and and you know, and just uh in 228 00:10:16,320 - > 00:10:20,639 fact, if if it if that's all we do, I think people can tell if 229 00:10:20,639 - > 00:10:22,639 somebody's real and somebody's authentic. 230 00:10:22,799 - > 00:10:27,679 If if it's if we're just playing a role and and engaging in in 231 00:10:27,679 - > 00:10:30,799 activities that we don't really believe in, people are gonna see 232 00:10:30,799 - > 00:10:31,759 through that pretty quickly. 233 00:10:32,159 - > 00:10:35,519 If it's not flowing from who you are, and if it's not perceived 234 00:10:35,519 - > 00:10:39,600 as authentic and sincere, it it's just you might get like you 235 00:10:39,600 - > 00:10:42,960 might stretch a rubber band and you might get some short-term 236 00:10:42,960 - > 00:10:45,919 compliance, but you're not gonna get long-term commitment. 237 00:10:46,080 - > 00:10:49,600 And as soon as as soon as you drop the act or you take the 238 00:10:49,600 - > 00:10:52,159 tension off, that rubber band's gonna go back to where it was. 239 00:10:52,399 - > 00:10:54,720 So I think you're on to something with that mindset 240 00:10:54,720 - > 00:10:54,960 idea. 241 00:10:55,039 - > 00:10:55,840 It's huge. 242 00:10:56,879 - > 00:10:59,679 SPEAKER_00: And how about what was you mentioned that you were 243 00:11:00,320 - > 00:11:04,320 this about 26 years ago when you were finishing up your your 244 00:11:04,320 - > 00:11:06,159 academic career at Texas Wesley? 245 00:11:06,320 - > 00:11:10,720 And so was that was there so you remember the time, but was there 246 00:11:10,720 - > 00:11:14,799 just was there something that was kind of the driving force 247 00:11:14,799 - > 00:11:17,840 that you thought just conceptually you had something 248 00:11:17,840 - > 00:11:21,519 bigger in mind that you actually needed to consolidate and put 249 00:11:21,519 - > 00:11:25,759 together an academic paper and white paper to actually start 250 00:11:25,759 - > 00:11:26,639 bringing this to others? 251 00:11:26,799 - > 00:11:27,200 What was that? 252 00:11:27,279 - > 00:11:28,399 What was that what did that look like? 253 00:11:28,639 - > 00:11:30,639 SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I'm a I'm a synthesizer. 254 00:11:30,720 - > 00:11:34,320 I you know, like you you read my I'm a I'm a boundary spanner, 255 00:11:34,480 - > 00:11:38,799 and so so I I I really like to take content from from lots of 256 00:11:38,799 - > 00:11:41,440 different settings and and pull it together. 257 00:11:41,519 - > 00:11:44,879 And and so, you know, I have a leadership class where we read a 258 00:11:44,879 - > 00:11:48,559 novel, we read history, we read scripture, you know, we read 259 00:11:48,559 - > 00:11:49,600 philosophers. 260 00:11:49,759 - > 00:11:52,399 I had a leadership class where we actually read Plato and 261 00:11:52,399 - > 00:11:54,960 Machiavelli and read a novel. 262 00:11:55,120 - > 00:11:57,840 And uh students said, This is the most practical course I've 263 00:11:57,840 - > 00:11:58,240 ever taken. 264 00:11:58,320 - > 00:11:59,039 I said, What do you mean? 265 00:11:59,120 - > 00:12:01,440 He said, Yeah, we're reading philosophy and we're reading 266 00:12:01,440 - > 00:12:01,759 novels. 267 00:12:01,840 - > 00:12:04,960 And he said, Yeah, and we talk about something every, every, 268 00:12:05,039 - > 00:12:07,200 and this happened to be on a Sunday afternoon when I was 269 00:12:07,200 - > 00:12:08,000 teaching this class. 270 00:12:08,080 - > 00:12:10,879 We talk about something on every Sunday afternoon that I can put 271 00:12:10,879 - > 00:12:11,919 to work on Monday morning. 272 00:12:12,000 - > 00:12:14,080 And this is the guy that worked at Southwest Airlines. 273 00:12:14,240 - > 00:12:16,720 So, so I'm I'm a big picture person. 274 00:12:16,799 - > 00:12:20,480 I I read broadly, uh, I read across disciplines. 275 00:12:20,639 - > 00:12:24,000 I I you know, I try to challenge myself to read things, even 276 00:12:24,000 - > 00:12:25,600 things that I think I'm not gonna agree with. 277 00:12:25,679 - > 00:12:27,120 I try to force myself to do it. 278 00:12:27,279 - > 00:12:31,360 But there was something about um, you know, pulling all these 279 00:12:31,360 - > 00:12:32,480 things together. 280 00:12:32,639 - > 00:12:36,399 Um, you know, so so that lecture was a way for me to pull things 281 00:12:36,399 - > 00:12:38,720 together that I've been thinking about for a while. 282 00:12:38,879 - > 00:12:42,720 And then there's nothing like the pressure of a of a deadline. 283 00:12:43,440 - > 00:12:45,600 You remember when you were in school, there's nothing like the 284 00:12:45,600 - > 00:12:47,519 pressure of a paper being due. 285 00:12:48,080 - > 00:12:48,559 Absolutely. 286 00:12:48,879 - > 00:12:50,639 It kind of pushes you to get focused. 287 00:12:50,720 - > 00:12:54,320 And and so this this call for papers went out, and uh, we 288 00:12:54,320 - > 00:12:55,840 actually missed the deadline. 289 00:12:56,240 - > 00:12:59,919 And uh and but I sent a note to the editor and said, hey, we 290 00:12:59,919 - > 00:13:00,080 missed it. 291 00:13:00,159 - > 00:13:01,919 Can we he said, Oh, I'm just now getting started. 292 00:13:02,000 - > 00:13:02,799 Go ahead and send it. 293 00:13:03,039 - > 00:13:08,159 And so, you know, and and and we sent it, and and you know, he he 294 00:13:08,159 - > 00:13:12,879 had some very constructive uh suggestions, and and we we ended 295 00:13:12,879 - > 00:13:16,879 up getting it, and it was the it was the um, you know, in that 296 00:13:16,960 - > 00:13:20,240 this it was a special edition of of the leadership quarterly, and 297 00:13:20,240 - > 00:13:23,279 and then I ended up co-authoring with that guy on several things. 298 00:13:23,360 - > 00:13:26,879 Um so we not only did we get the paper published, but ended up 299 00:13:26,879 - > 00:13:29,679 developing a long professional friendship that continues to 300 00:13:29,679 - > 00:13:30,000 this day. 301 00:13:30,080 - > 00:13:31,360 So that's great. 302 00:13:31,679 - > 00:13:32,240 SPEAKER_00: That's great. 303 00:13:32,480 - > 00:13:34,799 SPEAKER_01: But I you know, I I think you know, that there's 304 00:13:34,879 - > 00:13:40,320 there's nothing like having a a presentation to make or an 305 00:13:40,320 - > 00:13:45,600 interview like with you to do to to help crystallize and bring 306 00:13:45,600 - > 00:13:48,159 things to focus that that you've been thinking about. 307 00:13:48,240 - > 00:13:51,039 You know, all these ideas are running around, but oh wow, I've 308 00:13:51,039 - > 00:13:52,559 got these questions that Mark wants to ask. 309 00:13:52,639 - > 00:13:54,240 I've got this talk that somebody wants me to give. 310 00:13:54,399 - > 00:13:56,639 So that's just kind of that's just kind of the way I've always 311 00:13:56,639 - > 00:14:00,399 worked, is having having something to pull me pull me to 312 00:14:00,399 - > 00:14:00,480 it. 313 00:14:00,559 - > 00:14:01,120 SPEAKER_00: So right. 314 00:14:01,279 - > 00:14:02,000 Oh, that's great. 315 00:14:02,159 - > 00:14:06,639 So so with your so from an organizational perspective, 316 00:14:06,960 - > 00:14:10,320 Jaylee, so you're obviously you're you're uh you're in the 317 00:14:10,320 - > 00:14:11,519 academic environment. 318 00:14:11,679 - > 00:14:15,600 So um but when you think about when you try to roll this out 319 00:14:15,600 - > 00:14:19,200 into an organizational setting, is this something that the 320 00:14:19,200 - > 00:14:23,279 concept of legacy leadership can actually be taught to the 321 00:14:23,279 - > 00:14:26,080 leaders, maybe the executive team within an organization, 322 00:14:26,240 - > 00:14:27,919 then cascaded down? 323 00:14:28,480 - > 00:14:33,440 Or is it maybe one, the CEO, who has to adopt and embrace legacy 324 00:14:33,440 - > 00:14:37,279 leadership to be able to get this to be possibly part of the 325 00:14:37,279 - > 00:14:37,919 culture? 326 00:14:38,240 - > 00:14:40,320 Or what are your thoughts there? 327 00:14:40,720 - > 00:14:43,519 SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I ideally, Mark, and I've you 328 00:14:43,519 - > 00:14:47,039 know, I've done I've been doing consulting for over 40 years, 329 00:14:47,279 - > 00:14:51,279 and uh and I've consulted across 12 different industries and over 330 00:14:51,279 - > 00:14:56,080 90 different companies, and so a variety of things, but um in the 331 00:14:56,080 - > 00:15:00,639 ideal situation, it starts at the top and it cascades down the 332 00:15:00,639 - > 00:15:01,279 organization. 333 00:15:01,519 - > 00:15:05,200 But I don't always get invited in at the top, so I just work 334 00:15:05,200 - > 00:15:06,639 with whatever level I'm given. 335 00:15:06,720 - > 00:15:09,840 And and so you know, I've done a lot of work with first line 336 00:15:09,840 - > 00:15:13,759 supervisors, a lot of guys that uh, you know, we called it the 337 00:15:13,759 - > 00:15:15,039 buddy-to-boss transition. 338 00:15:15,120 - > 00:15:17,759 They they went home as a as a buddy on Friday and they came 339 00:15:17,759 - > 00:15:20,559 back as the boss on Monday, and making that transition is a 340 00:15:20,559 - > 00:15:21,600 tough transition. 341 00:15:22,159 - > 00:15:25,039 I can teach these principles to those guys and it resonates with 342 00:15:25,039 - > 00:15:26,000 them, and it gets it. 343 00:15:26,159 - > 00:15:29,919 And then and then I've done it where we I actually coach the 344 00:15:30,159 - > 00:15:34,240 CEO, and then invariably the CEO invites me to work with his 345 00:15:34,240 - > 00:15:37,840 leadership team or her leadership team, and then we we 346 00:15:37,840 - > 00:15:39,919 get it through there, and then we bring it to the next level, 347 00:15:40,000 - > 00:15:41,039 and we bring it to the next level. 348 00:15:41,200 - > 00:15:43,519 So I've done it all kinds of ways. 349 00:15:43,759 - > 00:15:47,120 Ideally, and this is ideal and does not always happen. 350 00:15:47,360 - > 00:15:50,960 Ideally, it starts at the top and it cascades down throughout 351 00:15:50,960 - > 00:15:54,960 the whole organization, and it becomes a framework, a way of 352 00:15:54,960 - > 00:15:58,080 thinking, and a way of leading that that permeates the whole 353 00:15:58,080 - > 00:15:58,639 organization. 354 00:15:58,799 - > 00:16:01,919 That that would be the the best situation. 355 00:16:02,000 - > 00:16:06,879 And I've had, you know, been doing it for I was introduced a 356 00:16:06,879 - > 00:16:09,679 couple of summers ago for a workshop, and and as actually 357 00:16:09,679 - > 00:16:11,600 the president of the university introduced me, and now it's 358 00:16:11,600 - > 00:16:12,320 become a joke. 359 00:16:12,480 - > 00:16:15,600 He said, Jay Lee has decades of experience. 360 00:16:16,960 - > 00:16:19,039 And nobody had ever said that. 361 00:16:19,840 - > 00:16:22,320 But it's true, I do have decades of experience. 362 00:16:22,480 - > 00:16:27,759 And and uh and but you know, so so in doing it, you know, I've 363 00:16:27,759 - > 00:16:31,919 had some really, really heartening, life-giving 364 00:16:31,919 - > 00:16:35,120 experiences where you really I really felt like wow, we made a 365 00:16:35,120 - > 00:16:35,679 difference here. 366 00:16:35,840 - > 00:16:38,480 We we made a difference in individuals' lives, we made a 367 00:16:38,480 - > 00:16:41,440 difference in the the people that work here, and it really 368 00:16:41,440 - > 00:16:44,000 did impact the whole organization, and it really did 369 00:16:44,000 - > 00:16:45,440 help change the culture. 370 00:16:45,600 - > 00:16:47,360 And uh that's very rewarding. 371 00:16:47,440 - > 00:16:50,320 Uh very, very rewarding when you can see you can see that 372 00:16:50,320 - > 00:16:50,639 difference. 373 00:16:50,720 - > 00:16:53,360 You can see the light come on and you can see people embrace 374 00:16:53,360 - > 00:16:53,600 it. 375 00:16:53,759 - > 00:16:55,600 Um, that's that's very rewarding. 376 00:16:55,840 - > 00:16:56,080 SPEAKER_00: Sure. 377 00:16:56,240 - > 00:16:56,960 Oh, that's great. 378 00:16:57,120 - > 00:16:57,600 That's great. 379 00:16:57,759 - > 00:16:59,360 Well, that's that is wonderful. 380 00:16:59,440 - > 00:17:01,679 We're gonna take a quick break, Jay Lee. 381 00:17:01,759 - > 00:17:04,720 So if you want to grab a glass of water and then we'll uh we'll 382 00:17:04,720 - > 00:17:06,240 be right back in just a couple of minutes. 383 00:17:09,440 - > 00:17:11,839 All right, thanks for getting uh coming back, everybody. 384 00:17:12,000 - > 00:17:15,519 So um as we've mentioned, as we've heard already from Jay Lee 385 00:17:15,599 - > 00:17:19,119 Whittington, so looking forward to another good conversation for 386 00:17:19,119 - > 00:17:20,799 the second half of the podcast. 387 00:17:21,119 - > 00:17:24,640 So, Jay Lee, what I wanted to ask you next is if you wouldn't 388 00:17:24,640 - > 00:17:28,400 mind maybe walking our audience through the principles of legacy 389 00:17:28,400 - > 00:17:29,119 leadership. 390 00:17:29,359 - > 00:17:32,160 And what do those principles look like and what do they 391 00:17:32,160 - > 00:17:36,079 entail from uh from your from your uh your your background? 392 00:17:36,480 - > 00:17:37,920 SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, thanks thanks, Mark. 393 00:17:38,000 - > 00:17:40,799 You know, I think the I mentioned the first one in the 394 00:17:40,799 - > 00:17:44,319 in the first half was you know being worthy of imitation. 395 00:17:44,480 - > 00:17:47,279 I think that as leaders, you know, we have to be intentional 396 00:17:47,279 - > 00:17:48,880 about cultivating our character. 397 00:17:49,039 - > 00:17:51,839 Uh I read something one time that said that if we're gonna be 398 00:17:51,839 - > 00:17:54,799 a people of integrity, we have to constantly confront our lack 399 00:17:54,799 - > 00:17:55,680 of integrity. 400 00:17:55,839 - > 00:17:59,759 And and so I think, you know, focusing on our character and 401 00:17:59,759 - > 00:18:03,359 and being willing to invite people in, to ask us hard 402 00:18:03,359 - > 00:18:06,319 questions and uh kind of a personal board of directors, I 403 00:18:06,319 - > 00:18:07,119 think that's important. 404 00:18:07,440 - > 00:18:09,519 It doesn't mean we're gonna be perfect, we're gonna mess up, 405 00:18:09,599 - > 00:18:10,400 we're human. 406 00:18:10,559 - > 00:18:12,480 Uh, but character really matters. 407 00:18:12,640 - > 00:18:16,079 There's a great quote that that I got from uh Andy Stanley. 408 00:18:16,160 - > 00:18:20,079 He said, your talent and your giftedness as a leader have the 409 00:18:20,079 - > 00:18:23,279 potential to take you further than your character can sustain 410 00:18:23,279 - > 00:18:23,519 you. 411 00:18:24,079 - > 00:18:26,480 And then he adds, and that ought to scare you. 412 00:18:26,799 - > 00:18:31,440 And and I think, you know, I I've I I talk about that a lot 413 00:18:31,599 - > 00:18:34,319 because I think some people just we have natural gifts and 414 00:18:34,319 - > 00:18:36,960 talents, and and we can go a long way with that. 415 00:18:37,119 - > 00:18:41,839 But at some point, if we build we build more than our 416 00:18:41,839 - > 00:18:44,079 foundation will sustain, we're gonna topple. 417 00:18:44,240 - > 00:18:47,039 And so I think we have to constantly be be working on on 418 00:18:47,039 - > 00:18:50,079 the on the character issues, and and so that that whole idea of 419 00:18:50,079 - > 00:18:53,200 being worthy, uh worthy of imitation is is very important, 420 00:18:53,359 - > 00:18:55,119 and the character issue is very important. 421 00:18:55,279 - > 00:18:59,599 Um, but another principle I think is uh tied to that and in 422 00:18:59,839 - > 00:19:03,759 is that um as a leader, not only should I be somebody that's 423 00:19:03,759 - > 00:19:06,400 worth following, but I really need to be follower-centric in 424 00:19:06,400 - > 00:19:06,960 my leadership. 425 00:19:07,119 - > 00:19:10,960 I really need to be a student of the people that I'm leading. 426 00:19:11,119 - > 00:19:13,519 I need to understand them, I need to understand how they're 427 00:19:13,519 - > 00:19:17,119 wired, I understand you know, what their uh their strengths 428 00:19:17,119 - > 00:19:19,279 are, uh what their limitations are. 429 00:19:19,440 - > 00:19:23,119 And and then I also need to be affirmational. 430 00:19:23,279 - > 00:19:26,559 Uh, I think it's important that you know we we talk a lot about 431 00:19:26,559 - > 00:19:29,680 feedback, and I think too often people think feedback is is just 432 00:19:29,680 - > 00:19:32,400 about correcting problems or straightening something out or 433 00:19:32,720 - > 00:19:34,400 fixing something, and that that's part of it. 434 00:19:34,559 - > 00:19:36,880 We need to be constructive and corrective. 435 00:19:37,119 - > 00:19:41,599 But I think a dimension that is often left out is um 436 00:19:41,920 - > 00:19:42,720 affirmation. 437 00:19:42,960 - > 00:19:45,599 When people are doing a good job, we ought to affirm them in 438 00:19:45,599 - > 00:19:46,240 doing a good job. 439 00:19:46,400 - > 00:19:49,200 We ought to, you know, there's a there's a well, the five love 440 00:19:49,359 - > 00:19:50,480 languages book. 441 00:19:50,640 - > 00:19:54,400 Um they actually, every time I taught that, I said, you know, I 442 00:19:54,400 - > 00:19:55,680 think there's a workplace application. 443 00:19:55,839 - > 00:19:58,480 Well, sure enough, the guys that wrote the five love languages 444 00:19:58,480 - > 00:19:59,839 wrote a book called The Language of Appreciation. 445 00:20:00,799 - > 00:20:04,160 And they took the the five love language framework, brought it 446 00:20:04,160 - > 00:20:06,559 into the workplace, but they only brought four into the 447 00:20:06,559 - > 00:20:06,880 workplace. 448 00:20:07,039 - > 00:20:10,000 They left physical touch in the workplace, which is good. 449 00:20:10,079 - > 00:20:12,640 You know, you don't want that you get physical touch in the 450 00:20:12,640 - > 00:20:14,640 workplace, you get to go see HR about that. 451 00:20:14,799 - > 00:20:18,240 But but you know, I think it's important to be a student of 452 00:20:18,240 - > 00:20:21,759 people and to understand what is their language of appreciation. 453 00:20:22,079 - > 00:20:26,160 Because people uh way back, uh Tom Peters and Bob Waterman 454 00:20:26,160 - > 00:20:27,519 wrote that book in search of excellence. 455 00:20:27,759 - > 00:20:30,559 They said everybody wants to be part of something bigger than 456 00:20:30,559 - > 00:20:34,640 themselves, but they also want to be recognized for their 457 00:20:34,640 - > 00:20:35,200 contribution. 458 00:20:35,279 - > 00:20:40,319 So we got to be affirmational, but affirmational but not 459 00:20:40,319 - > 00:20:40,880 content. 460 00:20:40,960 - > 00:20:44,880 We we need to affirm people, but then then and and let it really 461 00:20:44,880 - > 00:20:47,279 sink in and let it resonate, but we're not content. 462 00:20:47,359 - > 00:20:49,440 There's still more to do, we can still get better, and so 463 00:20:49,599 - > 00:20:53,440 affirmational uh but but not content is is a principle. 464 00:20:53,599 - > 00:20:57,440 Um another principle, it just comes with the territory. 465 00:20:57,519 - > 00:21:02,880 Uh in fact, uh we're we're gonna launch a uh um LinkedIn uh 466 00:21:03,039 - > 00:21:04,240 series with me. 467 00:21:04,319 - > 00:21:07,119 Uh I think the first one's going up tomorrow, and we're we're 468 00:21:07,119 - > 00:21:11,599 talking about um leading through the rugged reality of 469 00:21:11,599 - > 00:21:12,319 leadership. 470 00:21:12,480 - > 00:21:15,839 And and in part of being a leader at any level, it doesn't 471 00:21:15,839 - > 00:21:18,160 matter if you're a first-line supervisor or a middle manager, 472 00:21:18,319 - > 00:21:22,400 if you're a CEO, the the very nature of leadership is that 473 00:21:22,400 - > 00:21:23,920 leadership is about change. 474 00:21:24,079 - > 00:21:26,880 It's about getting better, it's about moving us from where we 475 00:21:26,880 - > 00:21:28,240 are to where we need to be. 476 00:21:28,400 - > 00:21:31,039 And anytime you're dealing with change, you're gonna deal with 477 00:21:31,039 - > 00:21:31,839 opposition. 478 00:21:32,000 - > 00:21:35,519 And so I think as leaders, we have to be have what I call 479 00:21:35,519 - > 00:21:37,680 boldness amid opposition. 480 00:21:37,920 - > 00:21:40,400 But boldness is not playing whack-a-mole. 481 00:21:40,559 - > 00:21:44,799 You know, I I know I work for some guys that, you know, if you 482 00:21:44,799 - > 00:21:47,200 were opposed or if you were concerned or you were worried, I 483 00:21:47,200 - > 00:21:50,400 mean, they're gonna, you know, whack-a-mole, uh, and and that's 484 00:21:50,400 - > 00:21:50,880 not it. 485 00:21:51,039 - > 00:21:54,720 I think we have to be bold amid opposition, but we have to see 486 00:21:54,720 - > 00:21:57,839 that resistance is really a form of feedback. 487 00:21:57,920 - > 00:22:01,119 If somebody's resisting what we're trying to do, uh, what 488 00:22:01,119 - > 00:22:04,559 they're really saying is that we haven't done an adequate job of 489 00:22:04,720 - > 00:22:08,079 explaining why we need to make this change, and we probably 490 00:22:08,079 - > 00:22:11,599 haven't done an adequate job of addressing their me issues. 491 00:22:11,680 - > 00:22:13,119 You know, they they're concerned. 492 00:22:13,200 - > 00:22:15,759 We're we're disrupting the organization, we're changing the 493 00:22:15,759 - > 00:22:18,400 structure, we're changing processes, and people have 494 00:22:18,400 - > 00:22:22,160 legitimate fears about where do they fit in in the midst of all 495 00:22:22,160 - > 00:22:22,720 these changes. 496 00:22:22,880 - > 00:22:25,920 So this idea of boldness amid opposition, we're gonna stay the 497 00:22:25,920 - > 00:22:29,359 course, but that it's not about being, you know, as I said, 498 00:22:29,519 - > 00:22:31,039 we're not playing whack-a-mole. 499 00:22:31,119 - > 00:22:35,200 Uh we're not we're not we're not just gonna not eliminate anybody 500 00:22:35,200 - > 00:22:39,920 that doesn't agree with us or doesn't um you know, isn't on 501 00:22:39,920 - > 00:22:40,240 board. 502 00:22:40,400 - > 00:22:42,400 And so that that's that's important. 503 00:22:42,720 - > 00:22:45,839 And and and part of that really flows from our motives. 504 00:22:46,079 - > 00:22:49,519 Um you know, I think as a leader, I mentioned earlier that 505 00:22:49,519 - > 00:22:53,440 we ought to have a handful, like a personal board of directors, 506 00:22:53,599 - > 00:22:55,759 that of people that ask us hard questions. 507 00:22:55,839 - > 00:23:00,000 And one of the most important questions that I think we should 508 00:23:00,000 - > 00:23:03,039 ask ourselves as leaders and that we should allow people to 509 00:23:03,039 - > 00:23:05,039 ask us is what is our motive? 510 00:23:05,279 - > 00:23:06,559 Why are you doing this? 511 00:23:06,720 - > 00:23:09,519 And and I said before, it's not about me, but it starts with me, 512 00:23:09,599 - > 00:23:10,880 but why am I doing this? 513 00:23:11,039 - > 00:23:15,599 And and and for me, being in a leadership role, it's about how 514 00:23:15,599 - > 00:23:21,279 can I use my position, my authority, my access and control 515 00:23:21,279 - > 00:23:26,799 of resources, my influence, how can I use those things to create 516 00:23:26,799 - > 00:23:28,960 an environment where people can flourish. 517 00:23:29,279 - > 00:23:33,200 And and and so so my motive, and we're never gonna get there 518 00:23:33,200 - > 00:23:33,680 100%. 519 00:23:34,400 - > 00:23:37,599 But I really want to operate from an altruistic motive 520 00:23:37,599 - > 00:23:41,440 pattern where it really is about others rather than an egotistic 521 00:23:41,440 - > 00:23:43,200 motive pattern where it's all about me. 522 00:23:43,599 - > 00:23:46,640 And and you know, we're we're humans, we're we're never gonna 523 00:23:46,640 - > 00:23:51,519 be what was the old uh soap uh commercial was 99 and 44, 100% 524 00:23:52,000 - > 00:23:52,319 pure. 525 00:23:52,640 - > 00:23:53,839 We're never gonna get there. 526 00:23:54,079 - > 00:23:57,200 But I think if we aim in that direction, is that I'm gonna use 527 00:23:57,200 - > 00:24:02,720 my influence, my power, my authority for good of others to 528 00:24:02,880 - > 00:24:05,839 create an environment where others can flourish and thrive. 529 00:24:06,160 - > 00:24:10,400 My very first supervisory job, my dad said to me, your job as a 530 00:24:10,400 - > 00:24:12,640 manager is to create an environment where people can 531 00:24:12,640 - > 00:24:13,119 perform. 532 00:24:13,519 - > 00:24:16,480 And then when I first started teaching, I was first teaching 533 00:24:16,480 - > 00:24:19,440 job was at Terrant County College, adjunct teaching 534 00:24:19,440 - > 00:24:20,240 economics. 535 00:24:20,480 - > 00:24:23,200 My dad said, you know, as a teacher, your job is to create 536 00:24:23,200 - > 00:24:25,599 an environment where people can learn. 537 00:24:25,920 - > 00:24:29,200 And uh I I didn't put put it all together until later on. 538 00:24:29,279 - > 00:24:33,279 I I found that the idea of servant leadership and thinking 539 00:24:33,279 - > 00:24:37,279 about, yeah, my job as a leader is to create environments where 540 00:24:37,279 - > 00:24:38,880 people can thrive and flourish. 541 00:24:39,039 - > 00:24:42,880 So I really want to lean into that that altruistic rather than 542 00:24:42,880 - > 00:24:45,119 egotistic uh motive pattern. 543 00:24:45,359 - > 00:24:47,119 So um yeah. 544 00:24:47,440 - > 00:24:48,160 SPEAKER_00: That's great. 545 00:24:48,240 - > 00:24:51,599 Wow, that's no, that was that was just like you said there, it 546 00:24:52,079 - > 00:24:56,160 my mind is is turning to around and it's almost a little bit of 547 00:24:56,880 - > 00:24:58,799 self-reflection too, which is great. 548 00:24:58,960 - > 00:25:03,440 So um kind of on that note, Jaylee, do you think you are 549 00:25:03,440 - > 00:25:06,640 there some people who are naturally born as legacy 550 00:25:06,640 - > 00:25:10,559 leaders, or is this truly because there's such a myriad of 551 00:25:10,559 - > 00:25:14,160 skill sets and uh and character qualities? 552 00:25:14,319 - > 00:25:16,640 Do you think this is something you have to grow into? 553 00:25:17,440 - > 00:25:19,440 SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I don't I don't think leaders are 554 00:25:19,440 - > 00:25:19,680 born. 555 00:25:19,759 - > 00:25:23,039 I think some people have some natural, you know, you may have 556 00:25:23,039 - > 00:25:28,160 some some personality traits and and and things that that are 557 00:25:28,160 - > 00:25:31,200 helpful as leaders, but but even if you have those, if you if 558 00:25:31,200 - > 00:25:33,039 you're not aiming it in the right direction, you're not 559 00:25:33,119 - > 00:25:34,480 gonna you're not gonna be a leader. 560 00:25:34,559 - > 00:25:36,559 So I don't think leaders are born, I think leaders are made. 561 00:25:36,799 - > 00:25:40,480 In fact, the image that I like to use, Mark, is is that that 562 00:25:40,480 - > 00:25:41,680 it's cultivated. 563 00:25:41,839 - > 00:25:44,400 And that's a that's an agricultural metaphor. 564 00:25:44,480 - > 00:25:47,759 And if you know, if you've ever had a flower bed or had a garden 565 00:25:48,000 - > 00:25:53,680 or observe, you know, farmers, and uh they they they're very 566 00:25:53,680 - > 00:25:56,880 intentional and it's a process, it's not an event, but you 567 00:25:56,880 - > 00:26:00,960 prepare the soil, you you put nutrients in the soil, and you 568 00:26:00,960 - > 00:26:05,119 really get the soil ready, and then you plant the seeds in the 569 00:26:05,119 - > 00:26:08,799 in that soil that you prepared, and then you you continue to 570 00:26:08,799 - > 00:26:11,359 water, even when you can't see any growth, you continue to 571 00:26:11,359 - > 00:26:15,440 water, and then eventually you know something starts to pop up, 572 00:26:15,599 - > 00:26:18,079 you know, breaks the surface, and you continue to water it, 573 00:26:18,240 - > 00:26:20,559 nurture it, and as the plant grows, you you water it and you 574 00:26:20,559 - > 00:26:23,519 nurture it, you fertilize it, and hopefully it continues to 575 00:26:23,519 - > 00:26:26,880 grow and it gets to the point where it's mature, and a mature 576 00:26:26,880 - > 00:26:30,559 plant either produces fruit or it produces a flower that that 577 00:26:30,559 - > 00:26:33,599 contains seed that allows it to reproduce. 578 00:26:33,680 - > 00:26:38,720 And so when I think about what I do as a as a as a professor and 579 00:26:38,720 - > 00:26:42,720 as a leadership coach and as a as a consultant, I'm wanting to 580 00:26:43,039 - > 00:26:45,039 take that image of cultivating. 581 00:26:45,279 - > 00:26:48,079 I want to take use that image, and you talked earlier about 582 00:26:48,079 - > 00:26:48,559 mindset. 583 00:26:48,640 - > 00:26:50,799 Well, that's an image that I have in my mind about what 584 00:26:50,799 - > 00:26:53,599 leadership is really about, and particularly about leadership 585 00:26:53,599 - > 00:26:55,920 coaching, leadership development, is cultivating. 586 00:26:56,000 - > 00:26:59,920 We we have we've we've made a major pivot in our curriculum at 587 00:26:59,920 - > 00:27:03,839 the University of Dallas, and and that that image is actually 588 00:27:03,839 - > 00:27:07,839 part of the presentation I do about cultivating virtuous 589 00:27:07,839 - > 00:27:08,240 leaders. 590 00:27:08,319 - > 00:27:12,319 And that that that agricultural metaphor is is just really 591 00:27:12,319 - > 00:27:12,559 important. 592 00:27:12,720 - > 00:27:15,039 So that's a long response to your question. 593 00:27:15,200 - > 00:27:18,799 I think we grow into it, but we don't grow into it without 594 00:27:18,799 - > 00:27:20,079 intentional effort. 595 00:27:20,319 - > 00:27:22,880 It takes, you know, it doesn't just happen. 596 00:27:23,039 - > 00:27:24,400 It takes intentional efforts. 597 00:27:24,559 - > 00:27:27,200 It's like, you know, I I see people that I think are worthy 598 00:27:27,200 - > 00:27:27,839 of imitation. 599 00:27:27,920 - > 00:27:31,359 I read something that I find inspirational, and I say, you 600 00:27:31,359 - > 00:27:33,039 know, I want to be like that. 601 00:27:33,200 - > 00:27:36,319 And and so, you know, it's not like just snap your fingers and 602 00:27:36,319 - > 00:27:37,440 all of a sudden you're there. 603 00:27:37,680 - > 00:27:41,759 And even having pursued it, that there's a title of a book called 604 00:27:41,759 - > 00:27:43,759 The Long Obedience in the Same Direction. 605 00:27:43,920 - > 00:27:47,440 Even having pursued this for a long time, I haven't arrived. 606 00:27:47,519 - > 00:27:49,759 And I think that as leaders, we we never arrive. 607 00:27:49,920 - > 00:27:54,400 I mean, we have to maintain that that humility that and a 608 00:27:54,400 - > 00:27:56,880 teachable spirit that there's still more to learn, there's 609 00:27:56,880 - > 00:28:01,039 still more uh where there's still gaps in that I need to 610 00:28:01,119 - > 00:28:02,160 that I need to work on. 611 00:28:02,720 - > 00:28:03,279 SPEAKER_00: Right, right. 612 00:28:03,440 - > 00:28:07,039 Um do you think on that on that note, Jaylee, do you find that 613 00:28:07,200 - > 00:28:11,759 um can somebody who is a uh maybe they're in their first 614 00:28:11,759 - > 00:28:13,680 supervisory position? 615 00:28:14,000 - > 00:28:15,920 I don't know, let's I'm just gonna throw in a number here. 616 00:28:16,000 - > 00:28:19,680 Let's say they're 32 years old, suit first supervisory position. 617 00:28:20,160 - > 00:28:24,640 Can they can they acquire and develop those traits at that 618 00:28:24,640 - > 00:28:30,400 early age in their and uh early age period, and also early in 619 00:28:30,400 - > 00:28:33,599 their leadership career, can they actually acquire a lot of 620 00:28:33,599 - > 00:28:34,880 those traits to become a leadership? 621 00:28:35,440 - > 00:28:36,079 Absolutely, Mark. 622 00:28:36,160 - > 00:28:37,039 SPEAKER_01: I I think they can. 623 00:28:37,200 - > 00:28:39,119 I think they can, but but there's two things. 624 00:28:39,200 - > 00:28:40,079 I already mentioned one of them. 625 00:28:40,240 - > 00:28:42,960 One of them is that being intentional about it. 626 00:28:43,359 - > 00:28:48,000 Uh but the other one, and this is huge, uh, is do they have a 627 00:28:48,000 - > 00:28:49,200 teachable spirit? 628 00:28:49,519 - > 00:28:54,160 And and I have the privilege of of coaching some some young 629 00:28:54,160 - > 00:28:54,880 leaders. 630 00:28:54,960 - > 00:28:57,839 Uh there's there's one that that I've been I've been working with 631 00:28:57,839 - > 00:29:01,759 her now for eight or nine years, and and I started working with 632 00:29:01,759 - > 00:29:04,960 her in her very first leadership position, and just this month, 633 00:29:05,119 - > 00:29:08,720 she now became the chief operating officer of a really 634 00:29:08,720 - > 00:29:09,680 large organization. 635 00:29:09,920 - > 00:29:13,920 And she is thriving and she is flourishing, but she has a 636 00:29:13,920 - > 00:29:14,799 teachable spirit. 637 00:29:14,960 - > 00:29:18,720 And when people call me and they want me to do executive 638 00:29:18,720 - > 00:29:23,519 coaching, um, or even if a kid reaches out to me and is looking 639 00:29:23,519 - > 00:29:26,880 for more of just an informal mentoring, the the question I'm 640 00:29:26,880 - > 00:29:29,599 always gonna ask, and I don't very I don't wait very long to 641 00:29:29,599 - > 00:29:32,000 ask it, is do they have a teachable spirit? 642 00:29:32,319 - > 00:29:33,839 Do they have a teachable spirit? 643 00:29:34,000 - > 00:29:36,480 And if they don't have a teachable spirit, I don't want 644 00:29:36,480 - > 00:29:37,119 to work with them. 645 00:29:37,200 - > 00:29:41,039 And it's not because it's not it's not about me. 646 00:29:41,119 - > 00:29:43,359 It's just I just know if you don't have a teachable spirit, 647 00:29:43,440 - > 00:29:44,480 this isn't gonna go well. 648 00:29:44,640 - > 00:29:47,039 You're gonna resent the fact that you have a coach. 649 00:29:47,279 - > 00:29:49,920 I'm gonna feel frustrated because I'm not making a 650 00:29:49,920 - > 00:29:52,319 difference, and then particularly in a coaching 651 00:29:52,319 - > 00:29:55,519 situation, and I'm sending them an invoice for my work, and 652 00:29:55,519 - > 00:29:58,000 they're paying the invoice, but they're not seeing any any 653 00:29:58,000 - > 00:29:58,559 change. 654 00:29:58,720 - > 00:30:01,759 So, you know, it but so I think I think you have to be 655 00:30:01,759 - > 00:30:05,119 intentional and I think you have to have a teachable spirit that 656 00:30:05,279 - > 00:30:06,720 you're willing to lean into it. 657 00:30:06,880 - > 00:30:12,480 And and you know, and in in my in my teaching and coaching, I 658 00:30:12,480 - > 00:30:17,119 actually uh practice um I try to practice radical candor, and 659 00:30:17,359 - > 00:30:20,160 which is a great book, Kim Scott's book, radical candor, is 660 00:30:20,240 - > 00:30:20,799 a great book. 661 00:30:21,039 - > 00:30:25,039 And and it's that you really care personally and you 662 00:30:25,039 - > 00:30:26,240 challenge directly. 663 00:30:26,400 - > 00:30:29,680 And you know, I as parents we understand that we don't call it 664 00:30:29,680 - > 00:30:31,359 radical candor, we call it tough love. 665 00:30:31,519 - > 00:30:34,079 I love you too much to let you go down this path. 666 00:30:34,319 - > 00:30:39,200 And and and so in fact, I was having a conversation with 667 00:30:40,559 - > 00:30:43,039 there's a couple of people that I coach that work for the same 668 00:30:43,039 - > 00:30:45,759 organization, and they they exchanged notes about their 669 00:30:45,759 - > 00:30:48,880 their discussions with me, and and and one of them said, Man, 670 00:30:48,960 - > 00:30:51,039 Jay Lee said some really tough stuff. 671 00:30:51,359 - > 00:30:53,920 And and and the one that I've been coaching the longest, she's 672 00:30:54,079 - > 00:30:57,039 she told him, said, well, he's gonna say tough stuff. 673 00:30:57,279 - > 00:30:59,920 But you gotta, you just gotta, you get, you gotta hang in there 674 00:31:00,079 - > 00:31:04,319 because sometimes when he says it, you aren't ready to hear it. 675 00:31:04,720 - > 00:31:07,920 But if you lean into what he said, it's gonna pay off. 676 00:31:08,160 - > 00:31:12,000 And and in, you know, so so I I I think, you know, but once 677 00:31:12,000 - > 00:31:16,160 again, she she is intentional and and she she definitely has a 678 00:31:16,160 - > 00:31:20,559 teachable spirit, and and she is just having a huge impact on her 679 00:31:20,559 - > 00:31:24,079 organization and in the in the people people talk about this. 680 00:31:24,160 - > 00:31:27,599 This is this is a strange thing, Mark, but people talk about what 681 00:31:27,599 - > 00:31:29,359 a blessing it is to work for her. 682 00:31:29,680 - > 00:31:33,359 Um there's another leader that I that I encountered in in a in in 683 00:31:33,359 - > 00:31:37,200 Missouri, and uh he's in an environment where every employee 684 00:31:37,200 - > 00:31:39,680 in his organization works for one of two unions. 685 00:31:40,240 - > 00:31:42,799 And he's one of the most effective leaders I've ever 686 00:31:42,799 - > 00:31:43,039 seen. 687 00:31:43,279 - > 00:31:45,759 He just leads anyway, where a lot of people would use that as 688 00:31:45,759 - > 00:31:46,160 an excuse. 689 00:31:46,319 - > 00:31:50,400 He just leads anyway, and and the people in that organization 690 00:31:50,400 - > 00:31:54,400 talk about what a blessing it is to have him as their CEO. 691 00:31:54,799 - > 00:31:58,160 So, you know, I I just think yes, we can we can make a huge 692 00:31:58,160 - > 00:32:00,559 difference, but we got to be intentional about it and we have 693 00:32:00,559 - > 00:32:01,759 to have that teachable spirit. 694 00:32:01,839 - > 00:32:03,519 SPEAKER_00: So that's great. 695 00:32:03,680 - > 00:32:09,119 Um now, do you have to be in a leadership role, um, Jaylee, to 696 00:32:09,119 - > 00:32:12,319 be to actually be a legacy leader, or can you be in an 697 00:32:12,559 - > 00:32:14,240 individual contributor role? 698 00:32:14,640 - > 00:32:18,240 SPEAKER_01: No, I think you uh absolutely asked that because um 699 00:32:18,559 - > 00:32:21,920 my definition of leadership is that leadership is intentional 700 00:32:21,920 - > 00:32:25,440 influence that takes place in the context of a relationship. 701 00:32:25,599 - > 00:32:28,480 And that really has absolutely nothing to do with a formal 702 00:32:28,480 - > 00:32:29,599 title or a position. 703 00:32:29,759 - > 00:32:32,319 And in fact, there are a lot of people that have formal titles 704 00:32:32,319 - > 00:32:34,720 and positions that are not leaders, much less legacy 705 00:32:34,720 - > 00:32:35,119 leaders. 706 00:32:35,359 - > 00:32:38,400 They may be power wielders, but they're not leaders. 707 00:32:38,640 - > 00:32:43,680 And so I think that that all of us are in leadership positions 708 00:32:43,680 - > 00:32:45,039 more than we realize. 709 00:32:45,200 - > 00:32:49,359 You know, that there are times when my students are leading me. 710 00:32:49,519 - > 00:32:52,160 My students are giving me feedback, my students are asking 711 00:32:52,160 - > 00:32:55,599 me questions, my students are are challenging me, and in that 712 00:32:55,599 - > 00:32:56,640 moment they're leading me. 713 00:32:56,799 - > 00:32:59,680 The the people that quote unquote report to me on the org 714 00:32:59,680 - > 00:33:01,839 chart, they lead me all the time. 715 00:33:02,079 - > 00:33:07,440 And and so, you know, and and I think you know, leading uh 716 00:33:07,440 - > 00:33:09,920 across boundaries, and you know, we talked about me being a 717 00:33:09,920 - > 00:33:12,400 boundary span across the boundaries of the organization 718 00:33:12,559 - > 00:33:14,319 where I have no formal authority. 719 00:33:14,480 - > 00:33:17,599 Uh, I can't, there's no there's no formal authority that I can 720 00:33:17,599 - > 00:33:18,400 lean on. 721 00:33:18,640 - > 00:33:23,680 Uh so you have to be able to lead independent of your title 722 00:33:23,680 - > 00:33:26,079 and your position, and just because you have a title and 723 00:33:26,079 - > 00:33:27,759 position doesn't mean you're a leader. 724 00:33:27,839 - > 00:33:30,720 That that's actually another one of the legacy principles, is 725 00:33:30,720 - > 00:33:34,319 that legacy leaders actually have influence without asserting 726 00:33:34,319 - > 00:33:35,200 their authority. 727 00:33:35,440 - > 00:33:37,759 Um I think it's a pretty weak place. 728 00:33:37,839 - > 00:33:43,759 If I have to if I have to rely on my formal authority to get 729 00:33:43,759 - > 00:33:46,880 you to do something, once again, I might I might stretch the 730 00:33:46,880 - > 00:33:49,599 rubber band and get some short-term compliance, but I'm 731 00:33:49,599 - > 00:33:52,799 not gonna get long-term commitment leaning on that. 732 00:33:53,039 - > 00:33:56,799 And uh it's not like people don't know that I have the title 733 00:33:56,799 - > 00:34:00,160 and the rank or the position, but I don't I really don't want 734 00:34:00,160 - > 00:34:00,960 to lean on that. 735 00:34:01,039 - > 00:34:04,000 I don't want that to be the reason why somebody's doing 736 00:34:04,000 - > 00:34:06,079 something that that I feel like we need to do. 737 00:34:06,240 - > 00:34:06,880 So yeah. 738 00:34:07,599 - > 00:34:09,760 SPEAKER_00: And that's not gonna be probably it's not gonna be 739 00:34:09,760 - > 00:34:11,039 sustainable long term. 740 00:34:11,679 - > 00:34:16,079 If you're if you're if it's because you are you're the 741 00:34:16,079 - > 00:34:19,119 supervisor, you're you are more superior to them on the org 742 00:34:19,280 - > 00:34:22,239 chart, that type of sustainability and level of 743 00:34:22,239 - > 00:34:26,239 accountability and for them to truly have any type of trust or 744 00:34:26,239 - > 00:34:28,320 respect with you is probably gonna be short-lived. 745 00:34:28,719 - > 00:34:29,840 SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely. 746 00:34:30,000 - > 00:34:32,639 But you know, back to what started this whole string, Mark, 747 00:34:32,719 - > 00:34:34,400 you were talking can can young people learn it? 748 00:34:34,559 - > 00:34:35,519 I think yes, they can. 749 00:34:35,599 - > 00:34:39,280 And and and one of the joys that I have is investing in younger 750 00:34:39,280 - > 00:34:39,440 people. 751 00:34:39,599 - > 00:34:42,800 You know, obviously as a professor, I I get I get a bunch 752 00:34:42,800 - > 00:34:46,480 of kids from 18 to 22, but then then in the graduate program, we 753 00:34:46,480 - > 00:34:49,360 get kids that are in their late 20s to early 40s. 754 00:34:49,440 - > 00:34:53,119 But even beyond just the classroom setting, I really it 755 00:34:53,360 - > 00:34:57,360 is life-giving to me to be involved with with younger 756 00:34:57,360 - > 00:35:01,840 people that are hungry to learn and and and and I think you know 757 00:35:02,960 - > 00:35:04,880 that they're hungry for mentors. 758 00:35:05,199 - > 00:35:08,239 And and I now we've got to be careful because that that word 759 00:35:08,239 - > 00:35:11,199 can be a heavy word, and I tell students, don't go ask somebody 760 00:35:11,199 - > 00:35:13,840 to be your mentor, just go say, I'd like to ask you some 761 00:35:13,840 - > 00:35:16,559 questions about something I'm working on, and let the let the 762 00:35:16,559 - > 00:35:18,480 relationship evolve and emerge. 763 00:35:18,639 - > 00:35:22,639 But I think there young people are hungry for older people to 764 00:35:22,639 - > 00:35:23,440 invest in them. 765 00:35:23,840 - > 00:35:28,159 And and I think that older people, uh there's another guy 766 00:35:28,159 - > 00:35:30,719 that I've been I've been coaching now for almost 15 767 00:35:30,719 - > 00:35:33,039 years, and the whole conversation started with, hey, 768 00:35:33,119 - > 00:35:36,079 I've been I've been praying about having an older man come 769 00:35:36,079 - > 00:35:36,719 into my life. 770 00:35:36,800 - > 00:35:40,000 And okay, well, I'm the older man that you're talking to. 771 00:35:40,239 - > 00:35:44,480 Um and that relationship started, and and my gosh, we've 772 00:35:44,480 - > 00:35:46,320 been together now, working together. 773 00:35:46,480 - > 00:35:49,360 We have a call every other week for 15 years. 774 00:35:49,599 - > 00:35:53,679 And but he he was hungry for a mentor, and then now he himself 775 00:35:53,679 - > 00:35:55,440 is a mentor to younger people. 776 00:35:55,599 - > 00:35:58,880 And I just think that's that's an important dynamic, is that we 777 00:35:58,880 - > 00:36:01,280 all need people that are a little further ahead of us on 778 00:36:01,280 - > 00:36:02,079 the road. 779 00:36:02,480 - > 00:36:05,440 We all need wingmen, people that are going through whatever, you 780 00:36:05,440 - > 00:36:07,519 know, it's kind of the same stage of life. 781 00:36:07,840 - > 00:36:11,360 But then, regardless of our age, I think we ought to all be 782 00:36:11,360 - > 00:36:15,519 investing, you know, reaching back and investing in in people 783 00:36:15,519 - > 00:36:17,519 that are kind of behind us on the road. 784 00:36:17,599 - > 00:36:20,880 And and all of that is is part of our ongoing leadership 785 00:36:20,880 - > 00:36:21,440 development. 786 00:36:21,599 - > 00:36:26,719 So uh, but I think that uh I'm gonna say us older guys, Mark, 787 00:36:26,800 - > 00:36:30,480 you're not as old as I am, but I think we ought to be looking, we 788 00:36:30,480 - > 00:36:34,719 ought to be on the lookout for for young people that that 789 00:36:34,719 - > 00:36:38,639 really want to tap into our experience and and our wisdom. 790 00:36:38,719 - > 00:36:41,519 And once again, it's not all about us, but they're they're 791 00:36:41,679 - > 00:36:44,079 they're looking for somebody to be a sounding board, they're 792 00:36:44,079 - > 00:36:48,000 looking for somebody to give them guidance, and uh it is such 793 00:36:48,000 - > 00:36:53,440 a rewarding experience uh to to to invest yourself in and be 794 00:36:53,440 - > 00:36:55,840 involved in in in younger people's lives. 795 00:36:56,400 - > 00:36:57,119 SPEAKER_00: That's so true. 796 00:36:57,280 - > 00:37:00,320 Well, and that is you know, that like you said, there's a lot of 797 00:37:00,320 - > 00:37:02,960 people out there, whether they're in the academic 798 00:37:02,960 - > 00:37:06,400 environment in university or even younger than that, I think 799 00:37:06,559 - > 00:37:10,880 who are who are there's there's this leadership void that's out 800 00:37:10,880 - > 00:37:15,039 there and good good mentors, good role models in some cases 801 00:37:16,000 - > 00:37:17,840 is really is is really lacking. 802 00:37:18,000 - > 00:37:21,519 So any final thoughts you have on legacy leadership? 803 00:37:21,599 - > 00:37:24,559 Um any final words of wisdom you wanted to share, Jalen? 804 00:37:25,039 - > 00:37:27,519 SPEAKER_01: I think I think we've got to be intentionally 805 00:37:27,519 - > 00:37:28,320 intentional about it. 806 00:37:28,559 - > 00:37:29,519 It doesn't just happen. 807 00:37:29,599 - > 00:37:31,519 I think it's intentionally intentional. 808 00:37:31,679 - > 00:37:34,480 I think we have to understand it's a process, not an event. 809 00:37:34,639 - > 00:37:37,039 So the whole cultivate metaphor. 810 00:37:37,199 - > 00:37:40,000 And then here here's something that I think is very important, 811 00:37:40,079 - > 00:37:44,000 Mark, is that the real measure of what we do as leaders, and by 812 00:37:44,000 - > 00:37:46,800 the way, the most important leaders are parents, and the 813 00:37:46,800 - > 00:37:49,519 second most important set of leaders in our society are 814 00:37:49,519 - > 00:37:52,320 teachers, and then those of us that have formal titles and 815 00:37:52,320 - > 00:37:55,440 positions and organization, but the real measure of our 816 00:37:55,440 - > 00:37:57,920 effectiveness as a leader is change lives. 817 00:37:58,159 - > 00:38:02,159 You know, are people changed because they spent time with me? 818 00:38:02,320 - > 00:38:05,760 Are they changed because I was part of their life, changed for 819 00:38:05,760 - > 00:38:06,239 the better? 820 00:38:06,400 - > 00:38:07,679 And that's the real measure. 821 00:38:07,760 - > 00:38:10,079 And I think too often, particularly in a corporate 822 00:38:10,079 - > 00:38:12,559 environment, we get caught up on external metrics, you know, 823 00:38:12,719 - > 00:38:14,480 return on investment, quarterly. 824 00:38:14,639 - > 00:38:17,039 You know, I worked at a company and I called it the tyranny of 825 00:38:17,039 - > 00:38:17,679 the quarterly. 826 00:38:18,079 - > 00:38:21,119 We're so concerned about those metrics, and and and we and we 827 00:38:21,119 - > 00:38:23,199 lost sight of the human side of the business. 828 00:38:23,360 - > 00:38:26,800 And so so for me, I want to stay focused on that you know, the 829 00:38:26,800 - > 00:38:31,039 real measure of my effectiveness as a leader, as a as a husband, 830 00:38:31,199 - > 00:38:35,280 as a father, as a grandfather, as a coach, as a as a teacher, 831 00:38:35,440 - > 00:38:37,519 the real measure is change lives. 832 00:38:37,599 - > 00:38:39,199 That's that's the bottom line. 833 00:38:39,440 - > 00:38:40,559 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's huge. 834 00:38:40,800 - > 00:38:41,440 That's huge. 835 00:38:41,599 - > 00:38:43,440 Well, thank you so much for your time. 836 00:38:44,000 - > 00:38:46,400 I was gonna ask you a couple more questions to finish up 837 00:38:46,639 - > 00:38:48,639 because I know I know you're gonna have a couple of great, 838 00:38:48,880 - > 00:38:52,960 I'm sure you're gonna have some great insights here, but um so 839 00:38:53,199 - > 00:38:57,440 favorite books, if there were your top three books, what would 840 00:38:57,440 - > 00:38:59,599 your top three books be that you'd recommend to the other? 841 00:39:00,320 - > 00:39:02,639 SPEAKER_01: I mentioned one earlier, uh Radical Candor. 842 00:39:02,719 - > 00:39:02,960 Uh-huh. 843 00:39:03,920 - > 00:39:07,679 And uh, in fact, uh a friend of mine at Texas Wesleyan just sent 844 00:39:07,679 - > 00:39:10,880 me a text last week and said his son-in-law is in a leadership 845 00:39:10,880 - > 00:39:11,119 position. 846 00:39:11,199 - > 00:39:11,840 What would you recommend? 847 00:39:12,559 - > 00:39:13,840 Well, Radical Candor. 848 00:39:14,239 - > 00:39:18,400 Uh Henry Cloud's Boundaries for Leaders is huge. 849 00:39:18,559 - > 00:39:21,280 We get as leaders, we get what we expect and we get what we 850 00:39:21,280 - > 00:39:21,840 allow. 851 00:39:22,159 - > 00:39:26,960 And then uh the classic book uh by John Cotter called Leading 852 00:39:26,960 - > 00:39:27,440 Change. 853 00:39:27,599 - > 00:39:32,480 Those three I think are uh at the at the top of the list. 854 00:39:32,639 - > 00:39:36,159 And uh, you know, I mentioned that book on on asking better 855 00:39:36,159 - > 00:39:38,079 questions that I read at the end of last year. 856 00:39:38,239 - > 00:39:40,880 Uh another, and I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna have a post on 857 00:39:40,880 - > 00:39:43,760 LinkedIn here in a in a week or so about the best leadership 858 00:39:43,760 - > 00:39:45,280 books that I read last year. 859 00:39:45,440 - > 00:39:47,760 Another one is a book called 10 to 25. 860 00:39:48,159 - > 00:39:49,760 Um David Yeager. 861 00:39:50,000 - > 00:39:52,639 He's a social psychologist at the University of Texas. 862 00:39:52,719 - > 00:39:56,800 And 10 to 25 is an age range, 10 to 25. 863 00:39:57,280 - > 00:39:59,760 And he talks about how we need to think. 864 00:40:00,239 - > 00:40:03,760 Change our thinking about people that are that age. 865 00:40:04,079 - > 00:40:06,559 And he it's very similar to radical candor. 866 00:40:06,639 - > 00:40:08,639 He talks about wise feedback. 867 00:40:08,800 - > 00:40:12,559 And he talks about we have we have really high expectations. 868 00:40:12,719 - > 00:40:17,519 We have high standards for uh performance and what we expect. 869 00:40:18,639 - > 00:40:21,840 But we're gonna move in alongside you and we're gonna 870 00:40:21,840 - > 00:40:24,559 create a supportive environment to help you get there. 871 00:40:24,719 - > 00:40:27,760 We're gonna help you reach our high expectations and high 872 00:40:27,760 - > 00:40:28,079 standards. 873 00:40:28,239 - > 00:40:30,719 So it's an and and it's kind of like radical candor. 874 00:40:30,800 - > 00:40:33,360 It's care personally and challenge directly. 875 00:40:33,440 - > 00:40:37,039 Well, in his wise feedback, it's I have really high standards, 876 00:40:37,199 - > 00:40:39,519 but I'm gonna move in alongside you and help you reach my 877 00:40:39,519 - > 00:40:39,920 standards. 878 00:40:40,000 - > 00:40:42,079 A lot of people have high standards and just leave you to 879 00:40:42,079 - > 00:40:42,800 the wolves. 880 00:40:43,039 - > 00:40:45,199 A lot of people have a real caring and supportive 881 00:40:45,199 - > 00:40:47,840 environment, but they don't really hold you to high 882 00:40:47,840 - > 00:40:48,639 expectations. 883 00:40:48,880 - > 00:40:53,920 So I I heard him, and it's just so easy to listen to, and it's 884 00:40:53,920 - > 00:40:54,719 so practical. 885 00:40:54,880 - > 00:40:58,400 And if you if you if you found him on YouTube, you would see, 886 00:40:58,559 - > 00:41:02,960 and it's in his book, everything he says is applicable to us as 887 00:41:02,960 - > 00:41:06,559 parents, it's applicable to us as teachers, and it's applicable 888 00:41:06,559 - > 00:41:07,679 to us as leaders. 889 00:41:07,840 - > 00:41:11,039 And uh so it's that that idea of wise feedback in that book, 10 890 00:41:11,039 - > 00:41:11,760 to 25. 891 00:41:11,840 - > 00:41:13,360 So um, so there's a short list. 892 00:41:13,519 - > 00:41:16,000 If y'all y'all get through those readings, then send me a note 893 00:41:16,079 - > 00:41:17,199 and I'll I'll give you some more. 894 00:41:17,679 - > 00:41:18,559 SPEAKER_00: No, that's great. 895 00:41:18,719 - > 00:41:19,039 Thank you. 896 00:41:19,119 - > 00:41:22,559 So how about uh are you uh do you listen to podcasts? 897 00:41:22,800 - > 00:41:27,840 SPEAKER_01: And if so, do you um a lot of podcasts, but but one 898 00:41:27,840 - > 00:41:32,719 that uh I I think this guy probably has more practical 899 00:41:32,719 - > 00:41:35,920 leadership wisdom and insight than anybody out there right now 900 00:41:36,079 - > 00:41:38,000 is a guy named Craig Rochelle. 901 00:41:38,159 - > 00:41:43,199 Okay, and uh and he also leads the the the Leadership Summit. 902 00:41:43,360 - > 00:41:46,960 And uh he's just uh he's just a phenomenal leader, he's a 903 00:41:46,960 - > 00:41:48,400 tremendous communicator. 904 00:41:48,559 - > 00:41:53,199 Um and and so uh but I I don't I don't spend a lot of time 905 00:41:53,199 - > 00:41:57,519 listening to podcasts, but uh anytime I hear Craig, he's got 906 00:41:57,599 - > 00:42:00,559 he's got really good insights on the leadership stuff. 907 00:42:00,719 - > 00:42:01,039 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 908 00:42:01,360 - > 00:42:04,079 SPEAKER_00: And the last question for you is so what what 909 00:42:04,079 - > 00:42:07,519 feedback or advice would you give your 16-year-old self? 910 00:42:09,280 - > 00:42:11,599 SPEAKER_01: Uh my 16-year-old self. 911 00:42:11,920 - > 00:42:13,920 I think about 16 years old. 912 00:42:14,159 - > 00:42:20,000 Um I think I I would give myself the advice to do the hard thing. 913 00:42:20,320 - > 00:42:23,360 Uh I think too often I I didn't want to do the hard thing. 914 00:42:23,599 - > 00:42:26,880 Uh, you know, I didn't want to uh for instance, you know, 915 00:42:27,039 - > 00:42:29,280 growing up in Texas, I should speak Spanish. 916 00:42:29,679 - > 00:42:33,119 And uh I didn't want to do the hard thing of taking Spanish too 917 00:42:33,199 - > 00:42:34,079 and doing the work. 918 00:42:34,320 - > 00:42:38,320 And uh, you know, so I I think if I if I could have had the 919 00:42:38,320 - > 00:42:42,159 discipline to do the hard thing, uh back then it would have it 920 00:42:42,159 - > 00:42:42,880 would have paid off. 921 00:42:43,039 - > 00:42:46,320 But back then, you know, I don't I think it was maybe two um 922 00:42:49,199 - > 00:42:52,159 wanted to stay in my comfort zone too much and wanted wanted 923 00:42:52,320 - > 00:42:56,320 wanted to have fun rather than than you know pay pay the price 924 00:42:56,320 - > 00:42:58,480 for uh a future benefit in return. 925 00:42:58,639 - > 00:43:00,400 So that that's that's what I would say. 926 00:43:00,559 - > 00:43:02,400 And you know, I've got grandkids. 927 00:43:02,559 - > 00:43:06,559 Well, I've got two grandkids in their early 20s and two that are 928 00:43:06,559 - > 00:43:10,159 14 and 15, and then two more that are 12 and 10. 929 00:43:10,320 - > 00:43:12,480 So, you know, I'm thinking about it. 930 00:43:12,559 - > 00:43:17,280 If I was to give them that advice, um I would give them 931 00:43:17,280 - > 00:43:17,760 that advice. 932 00:43:17,840 - > 00:43:19,440 I'm just still not sure they wouldn't. 933 00:43:19,519 - > 00:43:22,159 I'm I'm thinking they might be like me and they might not 934 00:43:23,599 - > 00:43:24,239 embrace it. 935 00:43:24,400 - > 00:43:27,440 SPEAKER_00: So uh that's so what about you, Mark? 936 00:43:27,519 - > 00:43:29,679 SPEAKER_01: What would you what would you tell your 16-year-old 937 00:43:29,679 - > 00:43:30,000 self? 938 00:43:30,320 - > 00:43:34,880 SPEAKER_00: Wow, my 16-year-old self is um no great question. 939 00:43:35,039 - > 00:43:40,800 It's a you know, I would probably say yeah, it's it's 940 00:43:40,960 - > 00:43:43,519 I've never asked, I've never had somebody turn the tables on me, 941 00:43:43,599 - > 00:43:47,119 so it's like this, but it's you know, I would I would really say 942 00:43:47,360 - > 00:43:53,039 to stop and smell the roses, stop and enjoy the small things 943 00:43:53,039 - > 00:43:53,519 in life. 944 00:43:53,760 - > 00:43:58,719 So um you if you didn't hear, we took a short break there, as you 945 00:43:58,719 - > 00:44:02,559 know, but then I I grew up in Canada and I grew up in a 946 00:44:02,559 - > 00:44:06,400 beautiful place, and so even the fall colors were phenomenal. 947 00:44:06,800 - > 00:44:09,840 So even the fall colors were great, and I don't think I even 948 00:44:10,239 - > 00:44:14,239 but of course as a 16-year-old, you don't think about the beauty 949 00:44:14,239 - > 00:44:19,039 of the reds, yellows, gold, rest colors when you're a kid at 16. 950 00:44:19,119 - > 00:44:20,239 It's like who cares? 951 00:44:20,480 - > 00:44:24,400 And so now, you know, if you live in Texas like we do, um, 952 00:44:24,719 - > 00:44:26,880 you know, you have to fly somewhere to go see the 953 00:44:26,880 - > 00:44:27,840 beautiful fall colors. 954 00:44:27,920 - > 00:44:30,639 So I it only lasts two or three days, yeah. 955 00:44:30,719 - > 00:44:33,039 And we I had that in my backyard kind of a thing. 956 00:44:33,119 - > 00:44:36,480 So I think that would be the big thing is stop and stop and enjoy 957 00:44:36,480 - > 00:44:36,800 the moment. 958 00:44:36,960 - > 00:44:39,440 I think we all get so busy and wrapped up. 959 00:44:40,000 - > 00:44:44,239 But um, yeah, so where can people so Jay Lee, this has been 960 00:44:44,239 - > 00:44:48,559 a great thank you again for your time and your shared appreciate 961 00:44:48,559 - > 00:44:49,280 the opportunity. 962 00:44:49,519 - > 00:44:50,159 You're welcome. 963 00:44:50,320 - > 00:44:51,360 How can people find you? 964 00:44:51,519 - > 00:44:53,039 What's what's the best way to find you? 965 00:44:53,360 - > 00:44:55,840 SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I'm on LinkedIn, so you can go out 966 00:44:55,840 - > 00:45:00,719 and find me on on LinkedIn, and uh, you know, then from LinkedIn 967 00:45:00,880 - > 00:45:01,840 you can connect with me. 968 00:45:01,920 - > 00:45:05,039 Uh, I'm I'm at the University of Dallas, and so you can you can 969 00:45:05,039 - > 00:45:07,360 find me on the University of Dallas webpage. 970 00:45:07,599 - > 00:45:11,519 Um, so I think that's probably the best way to connect with me. 971 00:45:11,679 - > 00:45:15,199 And uh and I would welcome anybody that that's interested 972 00:45:15,199 - > 00:45:15,760 in these things. 973 00:45:15,840 - > 00:45:17,519 I'd I'd love to talk, I'd love to talk about it. 974 00:45:17,599 - > 00:45:20,400 I mean you said it earlier, I could talk all afternoon, all 975 00:45:20,400 - > 00:45:21,440 evening on this. 976 00:45:22,480 - > 00:45:24,639 We do have some some some time constraints. 977 00:45:24,800 - > 00:45:27,360 SPEAKER_00: So I love your I love your passion and what you 978 00:45:27,360 - > 00:45:27,519 do. 979 00:45:27,599 - > 00:45:29,440 I love the passion you have, period. 980 00:45:29,679 - > 00:45:33,360 And I'd imagine you're a great grandfather, so it's uh or 981 00:45:33,360 - > 00:45:36,000 whatever your whatever all your grandkids call you, but I'm sure 982 00:45:36,079 - > 00:45:37,760 they oh they call me pops, yeah. 983 00:45:37,840 - > 00:45:40,960 SPEAKER_01: So I'm pops and Laura is Lolly, and and and that 984 00:45:40,960 - > 00:45:42,480 is what a blessing that is. 985 00:45:42,559 - > 00:45:44,079 We love being pops and lolly. 986 00:45:44,159 - > 00:45:46,880 So but all their friends call us pops and lolly too. 987 00:45:47,039 - > 00:45:50,639 I mean, so it's like the whole uh the whole world now knows us 988 00:45:50,639 - > 00:45:51,760 as Pops and Lolly. 989 00:45:51,840 - > 00:45:52,800 SPEAKER_00: So there you go. 990 00:45:53,119 - > 00:45:53,679 That's okay. 991 00:45:54,639 - > 00:45:57,599 Well, thank you again so much for your time and have a have a 992 00:45:57,599 - > 00:46:00,239 blessed uh have a blessed rest of the day, and we'll talk again 993 00:46:00,239 - > 00:46:00,719 soon. 994 00:46:01,039 - > 00:46:02,159 SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you, Mark. 995 00:46:02,400 - > 00:46:02,800 Okay, bye.