Hotel Sales Skills that Fill Planes: Matthew Borger

Speaker A: This episode is released in memory of Shannon Knapp, our host and dear friend. Hotelier Huddle was Shannon's homage to the hotel industry and the people within it who meant the world to, uh, her rest in peace, Shannon. Today I had an insightful chat with Matt Borger, airlines and partnership manager for Newcastle Airport. We spoke about his evolution from selling rooms to filling planes and revenue management in both sectors of the travel industry. This episode is per for aspiring, uh, sales professionals. Burnt out hotel managers contemplating their options. Anyone curious about where hospitality skills can take you and every salesperson who's ever wanted to throttle a, ah, revenue manager or vice versa. Matt Borger story offers a master class in career longevity. Enjoy. Matt Borger, nice to see you. Thank you so much for doing this today.

Speaker B: It's great to see you. I'm always happy when I, uh, see your face.

Speaker A: I know. It's nice to see you. It's been a while.

Speaker B: It has. Yeah, it has.

Speaker A: If you don't mind, I would like to cover your career journey so far, and this is for the benefit of our audience, to understand why this aviation guy qualifies as a member of the Hotelier tribe.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So firstly, going all the way back. Earned your BA in Economic Social Science from University of Sydney.

Speaker B: That's correct.

Speaker A: Then you were BDM for Corporate and Consortia at Mentor Group and then also with Seville Hotel Group. Then when I met you, we were both at Murdoch Hotels and Resorts. And you are our Director of Leisure Sales for four and a half years.

Speaker B: Someone that we used to work with. Pronounced the word leisure.

Speaker A: I know, I know. Finally, after 30 years in Australia. Most of the time I say leisure now, but anyway, uh, then you were Director International Sales and Director of Sales for Strada and Franchise, where we also worked together at Accor Hotels for three years. Then you were Group Director of Trade Sales and Regional Sales and Marketing Manager from Mantra for a couple of years. And you are currently airlines and partnership manager for Newcastle Airport for the last six and a half years and also chairperson, destination Port Stevens, father of two, husband to the lovely Christie. Have I forgotten anything?

Speaker B: Uh, you've hit the mark, Shannon, as you always do. Um, no. Yeah, no stone unturned. Think a lot of, um. Yeah, it's been a long journey. Gosh, yeah. Wow. Right back to economics days at Sydney University. So I'm through. But yeah, no, it's. It's been a long journey and thrilled to talk to you today about it.

Speaker A: From selling rooms to filling airplanes, you've gone from convincing people where to stay to convincing Airlines, where to fly. I find that fascinating. What's more challenging or more fun? Persuading a corporate client to book 100 room nights in a hotel or persuading an airline to launch a new route to Newcastle?

Speaker B: Well first I've got to say it's been a long time since um, I persuaded a corporate account to um, of a hundred, 100 uh, room, um.

Speaker A: Yeah, usually thousands of room nights.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, actually it's funny, um, it triggers a mind. My first ever contract signed. I remember back in Seville hotels days was 150 rooms and I was really um, wet behind the ears. New kid on the block.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Drive out to um, this, it was a car parts company manufacturer out in Western Sydney. I drove out and uh, signed that contract. And I remember you thought you were a rock star. I did, yeah, I did. I was. Come back, you know, you know, proud as punch when you sign the deal. Well, you know, sign the deal. Uh, but the last meeting I had in the hotel industry is um, working, um, when I was at Mantra, I think the last meeting I had was with an ota. Um, I won't speak who it was but I know that used to be really frustrated by the faxes they sent back in the day. Is, was um, a $260 million account for that thing. So I've gone for the full le a con of 150 rooms right up to almost quarter of a billion dollars.

Speaker A: I bet that felt good.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah it was um, probably revenue managers probably thought it was a little bit too much but you know, that's the way it kind of rolled. I'm sure we'll talk about that. Um, sorry, long. To answer your question, aviation is harder. It really is. Um, okay, you are ah, trying to convince an airline network, managers, schedulers yielding revenue management teams as well to send anything from a 150 million to a $300 million piece of metal, a very advanced piece of metal, an airline to fly to your airport as opposed in your destination as opposed to another destination.

Speaker A: Wowzer.

Speaker B: It takes so much detail. Business case data, uh, engagement. You're on the phone, you're talking to. You're getting government involved, you're getting, you know, business associations involved. You're doing research on, you know, what corporates are going to use this service. How are we going to point the finish fill the pointy end, which is um, from a revenue manager perspective, that's where the yield normally comes from. You're doing all those types of things. And I'll give an example. Um, at Newcastle Um, um, Perth. We just launched services to Western Australia, Perth to Newcastle last year. Um, which makes perfect sense, you know, Newcastle, very heavily. Sorry, the hunter, I should say very heavily. A, um, resource sector, mining, all those types of things. Think what you like about mining, but they're there. Uh, and obviously the west, you know, driven by the resource sector. There was no connection point. My, um, CEO at the time, um, he was like. When I started, he goes, I want two things. I want an international service year round and I want a flight to Perth. So it took me five years. It took five years.

Speaker A: I was just about to say, these partnerships and new deals, they must be years in the works, right?

Speaker B: I mean, absolutely, yeah.

Speaker A: These are not overnight deals. Yeah.

Speaker B: Funny enough, the CEO, when we launched it, he was like, it took 12 years. I was only at least half of the, you know, less than half of that process.

Speaker A: You're ahead of pace. I love it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, you know, um, the satisfying thing about that is that's proven to be, um, a successful service. And it's, you know, um, you know, speaking to Qantas Group, the airline, it's doing incredibly well. So. So, yeah, it's hard. It's a hard slog. It's a marathon, not a Sprint. I know it's a cliche, but that's what we say all the time. Um, and it's a very competitive space. You know, there's not that many, you know, airlines out there. No, in Australia, there's only, you know, you got small. You're excellent. Smaller airlines like, uh, Fly, Pelican, Link Airways, you know, Rex, all those types of things. But the big two are Virgin and Qantas. And you're, you know, you're working with a Gallopoly. And there's. Every airport wants more flights, so it's, um, it's. It's tough. It's tough. It's a tough gig, but it's really rewarding, Shannon, when you land one.

Speaker A: Yeah. Do you know, um, so often part of the conversation I have around revenue management, especially with, you know, smaller property, uh, owner operators, is, you know, there's always that legacy comparison between hotels yield managing and airlines yield managing. And, well, you know, we should revenue manage the way airlines do. Well, yeah, but the big difference is that in the airline, part of our industry of travel, especially in Australia, there's a whole lot less competitors than they are in hotels. There's effectively, to your point, two or three depending on the destination. Whereas in hotels, travelers have a lot more choice in where they can stay than they do in where they, how they fly or how they get there. So, you know, every time an owner, operator or revenue manager changes a price, they have to consider maybe 20 different competitors. Whereas in airlines, they really only got two. So that means it's harder for airlines on some respects. Uh, in hotels, you know, we've just got, uh. Guests have so much more choice that, you know, deciding who to say no to in hotels from a yield perspective or deciding to put prices up is a bit riskier in a way because we. We're just competing with so many more.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Properties. Right.

Speaker B: There's also a capacity gap too. Right. So, you know, an airline, you know, if they're not selling on a certain day, day of the week, the schedules not really put a smaller aircraft on, you know, let's replace that. Or the flight doesn't go E190 or an A220 now, all those different. Or the flight doesn't go. Exactly right. You know, I remember, um, you know, from tourism days, I remember speaking to, um, an industry colleague who was at Journey beyond, obviously Great Southern Rail, then Indian Pacific, the Gan. You know, it's fantastic products they have. And I remember they were like, you know, talking, um, to them about, you know, revenue management and, you know, you know, they call it occupancy as well. They were like, it's perfect for us. We just. If we can't sell, if we can't sell the tickets, we just take a carriage off the train.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm like, wow. And I remember like, thinking, God, well, you know, you know, hotel, you go, you know, we just take that level away for the night or something like that. It's like, you know, so there's a complexity that, um, you know, it's that, you know, we talk about that perishable, you know, you can't sell that room. That room's gone for the day.

Speaker A: Uh, perishable inventory just right. You know, tomatoes on a shelf at Woolies, they rot. At a certain point, you can't sell them anymore.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So, um, there is some advantage that airlines do have with regards to turning, you know, um, shutting that schedule off, um, uh, going on a smaller aircraft, um, as well. So, um. But, yeah, but it's, um. There is very similar, a lot of similarities between the, ah, the industries there.

Speaker A: Certainly in hotels, in extreme cases, a property can be season. Um, you know, some properties, you know, ski resorts and that sort of thing. It makes a bit of sense. Or like the Overlook Hotel in the Shining, that was seasonal. But, you know, to your point, yeah, it's not like in the general manager

Speaker B: of that hotel, Shannon.

Speaker A: I know, right? Don't you guys? I know. Uh, but, you know, in hotels, even if we close off a floor or two, we still have to pay the insurance, the furniture, fixture and equipment, the. The lights, sometimes the air conditioning. So we still have costs associated with that inventory, even if we're not selling it, right?

Speaker B: That's right. Absolutely.

Speaker A: Uh, so your great hospitality pivot, I've decided to call it, where after two decades in hotels and resorts, you swap the keys to the mini bar for the keys to a Runway, if I can put it that way. And I'm wondering, was there a moment when you thought, you know, what airport to the new hotels, this is. This is where I want to be. Or was it. Did you accidentally end up in it or was there a moment?

Speaker B: It was a bit of accidental, I think, a bit of luck, actually. Uh, as well. Um, it was forced upon me. Um, I went through. I was at Mantra, and they were, um, you know, purchased by a core at that stage. And as often the case is when big businesses come, uh, together, there's restructures and people leave those organizations and, you know. Right. Commercial decision at the time, they made as well. So, you know, I guess I, uh, wouldn't say collateral damage. That's a bit dramatic. But, uh, you know, um, so I was forced to look for other options. And, um, you know, there. I had other offers on the table from other hotel groups, um, at the time, because, um.

Speaker A: Of course you did.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, it was good. It was, you know, it was. You go straight out there, you roll your sleeves up because, you know, you know, it's. You know, they look after you as well you can. But, you know, um, those moments are, uh, still a kick. There are, you know, there are the. You know, you've got to go through that, but you got to roll your sleeves up and brush yourself off and go again. So there was offers. Um, but then I was. It's funnily enough, I was on the Gold coast of that stage because I was obviously working at Mantra, where the head office was, um, and I was on a plane to no Vacancy, uh, to see what other opportunities, like the conference, um, the hotel hoteliers conference in Sydney.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I landed at Sydney Airport and I turned my phone on and I got a message on LinkedIn from a recruiter saying, hey, um, we've been tracking you on LinkedIn. We've got a role in the.

Speaker A: Not in a creepy way.

Speaker B: No, not in a creepy way. No, no. Um, and we've got an opportunity. Would you be interested in um, joining um, the aviation sector, Airports. So I thought oh well, you know I spent a lot of my career on planes. You know I wouldn't call myself an aviation nerd but I have an interest in it. Um, so I thought you know this is. And I like it. You know, um, things are a little bit different. I like to challenge myself like well okay, this is a different industry. So um, went through that process, um, interviewed was uh, accepted for the role. Um, and even you know, look, it was a good balance because it. I really at that stage took the career advancement and change was, was important. But it was also an opportunity from a family perspective. Um, you know my family, as you know my family is still in Sydney. My in laws are in the mid north coast just around the Port Macquarie area. Um, Newcastle's halfway. Um, and we had, you know, we had young, young kids. Um, you know I've got you know, Jack and Evie, 9, um, 11 and 9. Um, now they ah, are um. But we were like okay, this. And I spoke to Christy and we're like going this might really be a good choice from a um, from a personal perspective. We're closer to the grandparents, we're closer to uncles and aunties, we're closer to our original friends, all those types of things. So we um, we made that call. Um, and we took on uh, the. We moved back into Port Stevens where I um. But yeah, it's been a great, it's been a great decision. Um, I won't talk about COVID That happened, you know, four months. Sorry the pandemic that uh, happened four months after uh, I joined. Yeah, yeah. Join a new industry and the largest disruption in the history of that industry happens, you know, um, just past your three month probation type of thing. Uh, but um, you know, to be perfectly honest, the organization was fantastic to me. Um, they're a great organization, great people, intelligent people, um, you know, hard working people. Um, so yeah, it was an aha moment and you know is airports, the new hotels. I don't think it is just because there's not that many of them. Obviously we've got a new one coming out of Western Sydney, you know, opening later in the year as well. Um, but it's a very small select group, um, of um, people who do my role. Aviation, business development and commercial for airlines. Yeah, probably. And you know, but we're very, it's a very close knit group. Like really close knit. Um, you know, I call them frenemies. Right. We all support each other, but we're always very competitive to try to, to win a plane to come to your airport over that airport. But, um, you know, we, you know, it's a, uh, my, my, my manager, my executive manager refers to us as a group, the industry as a traveling circus. Like we travel to these conferences all around the world as Team Australia, which tourism Australia support it and call us all Team Australia.

Speaker A: Um, but like an F1 team. They all compete, but they're also, they're also touring together, but they're fiercely competitive.

Speaker B: That. That's right. You know, so. Exactly right. You know, they're traveling. So, um. Yeah. So, um, I wouldn't say it's the new airports, but it's a pretty cool industry to be in Shannon. I'm very lucky.

Speaker A: I love it. I love it. Okay, silly question alert. I'm going to ask it anyway. So you're chairperson by night, aviation champion by day, where you're simultaneously steering destination Port Stevens and managing airline partnerships for Newcastle Airport. Do you ever get your wires crossed and accidentally try and sell an airline on Port Stevens beaches or pitch a hotel on their baggage handling efficiency?

Speaker B: Um, I. Yes, you do. Um, and I'm very, very lucky. Um, you know, Port Stephens, being the chairman, got an excellent team that work there. Um, my CEO, Joe Thomas, Mel Turner, Lily in that team. They're brilliant at what they do. Um, so being a chairman. Yeah, yeah, I know you've spoken to them. Um, they, um. But, you know, being a chairman, um, and having, you know, being in corporate roles all my life and just seeing how governance works as well. It's all about, you know, guidance, um, counsel, um, support, advocacy. Um, that's where we kind of sit and you know, very proudly, you know, you'll, you'll talk to anyone. Um, you know, across the, um, the tourism industry. Um, you know, destination, uh, Port Stevens is considered one of the, you know, leading RTOs in, in the country. Not just New South Wales. Like, you'll go to Ate and it's the collective. We'll have more regional buyers in New South Wales than any other region. Obviously.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: Um, but, you know, we'll all be, um, aligned in their destination Port Siege. Uh, T shirts. Everyone comments. Oh, sorry. Um, shirts. Everyone comments about that. So, so it's good. Um, my role is absolutely critical to have destination management, um, and promoting a destination.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: Newcastle as a region. Like, we're a fast growing region. Right. And that's, you know, we're a new international airport. You know, new terminal opened in September,

Speaker A: New Runways and everything too. Build new runways to accommodate the new aircraft. Right.

Speaker B: Federal government supported that, um, as well. Um, but that's purely based on the fact of the, the growth, um, of the, of the catchment. We call it the catchment. So we've got 1.3 million people in our catchment. It's the population size of Adelaide. Um, but it's. So it's, it's my job, it's my colleagues, my team's job, you know, my colleagues I work with to go out to the world and sell it to the airlines that, hey, you've got this, um, catchment, uh, size, but you've got this emerging new airport. Um, because in the past we didn't have the infrastructure. Everyone just naturally jump in the car or jump on the train and head down to Sydney. But the catchments, um, emerging. Uh, so, you know, it's, it's, it's growing so much. You know, of the top five local, uh, government areas in Australia, we've got two, um, of the highest, um, population growth and that's, you know, an exodus out of Sydney people. You know, it's more expensive to buy a house in Sydney. We don't need to talk about that. Um, I guess on the poster boy, right, I've, I've moved from, you know, being in Sydney, moving up to regional, um, because it's more affordable. Um, so you've got to sell the destination. And long story short, you know, because of that airlines, when we talk to them, they know we've got a high population base for Australia. They know there's, we talk about a high, Our data tells us the high propensity to travel that happens out of region. But airlines want an equitable inbound, outbound option. So you need to sell the inbound, um, opportunities. And you know, it's not just Port Stevens. We talk about, we talk about the Hunter Valley, we talk about the wine, you know, the wine industry up there. We talk about Newcastle, this fantastic, um, emerging city with a fantastic food and wine scene that's kicking off.

Speaker A: Uh, it's not just a steel town anymore.

Speaker B: It's got a steel town anymore. You know, it's kind of like, um, you know, it's got a bitty, it's still got a gritty North Melbourne, Brunswick, Collingwood, cool type of feel about it, you know, um, you know, great, you know, art galleries just open here. Fantastic, um, facility. I really recommend anyone coming up to see that. Um, but we, you know, we go right up to the mid north coast, up to Port Macquarie, up into um, um, you know, up in the Upper Hunter. So got to sell that, got to sell that to the, to the airlines. Got to understand why they're coming. Um, they're going to come, you know, why tourists are going to come to your region. And you know, we work very closely with destination New South Wales. There's such a supportive state organization for us. They've got their strategy for the visitor economy up until 2035, regional dispersal out of Sydney is important. Um, you fly an aircraft, you bring tourists directly into Newcastle airport over Sydney, tick regional, dispersed immediately.

Speaker A: And then the other airport, it's Badgery's Creek, right where the other one is opening. That will have to form part of the plans through to 2035. I forget when Badgery's Creek airport's supposed to open. It's still another few years, right?

Speaker B: Oh, no, no, it's opening at the end of this year. Um, it's close. Um, you know, um, destination New South Wales out of that 2035 strategy, has a goal to increase, um, seats into New south Wales by 8.5 million seats. Um, so that's um, you know, we need, you know, western Sydney, um, Sydney of course as well, they've got some infrastructure plans, but importantly, where my heart lies, Newcastle. We all have to work to deliver, um, that because you know, you know, increased capacity, increased seats is just a natural economic driver, um, for the region. Um, you know, and some of the stories, you know, you hear about, you know, like I said, you know, you know, we introduced flights to South Australia, Adelaide, um, uh, several years ago, um, and you know, sitting at a Qantas, you know, talking to someone at a Qantas, um, lounge. Um, a couple of months ago it was like, oh yeah, what do you do? Work at the airport. Oh yeah, right. That's great to have that ad load service. My business has completely grown because we've been able to connect directly with that. You know, I've employed an extra 30 people. Um, it's those little stories that are so satisfying.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, um, but that's what capacity and increased capacity delivers. Um, and that's part of my role to, to increase that.

Speaker A: I wanted to ask your perspective on the, I'll, uh, call it the sales versus revenue manager cold war. So you spent years in hotels where success meant saying yes to every deal, while revenue managers, they're sort of hardwired and professionally trained to say no to perfectly good looking business in air quotes. Uh, did you ever have a revenue manager reject one of your corporate bookings and you don't have to name and Shame. Um, but if so like how many deep breaths did you take before you could speak to them again? And the second part of the question is, now that you're in aviation, do you have flashbacks when someone mentions yield management?

Speaker B: Um, well, I'm going to challenge you on that question a bit, Shannon. You don't say yes, please. You don't say yes to every deal.

Speaker A: Uh, ah, see, which what A revenue manager. Well done Matt Borger. Well done Matt Borger.

Speaker B: Of course. No, no, there is um, a lot of um, approaches that we get um, have had got in the career. They just go, no, that's not going to work. Um, as well. Um, I think a lot of my great relationships I come out of the hoteliers, out of the hotel industry are ah, with revenue managers.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think I know that to be true. I remember it.

Speaker B: Yep, yep. You know, but I will admit that I was probably at mobac, I was a little bit younger, less wiser. I probably was a little bit frustrating to probably members of your team, uh, because you get that passion right. You know and you know you just kind of, you're dealing and you've got opportunities and. But I think that comes over time was you know, over you know, the uh, um, the luxury of time that you kind of change that. I remember in my last role at um, at Mantra, I had um, 10 business development or account managers reporting to me in that, in that role, that leisure trade role. And you know they had different markets and you know a lot of them would get, you know again that passion, get really frustrated about, oh, you know this has been rejected by a revenue manager. And um, and I would, you know, my one on ones, I'd sit down and go okay, well let's kind of unpack this a little bit. Why has that been rejected? Um, you know it's just part of it, you know it's two way job, um, being an account manager account. You've got to pitch to the client and try to secure the opportunity. And then you got to pitch it to um, a revenue manager, general manager, uh, you know, those who are working in, you know I used to refer to hotels, especially when those big, you know, when you're at a core or Mantras, almost like they're just business units. Right? Um, very important, critical, um, business units. And you know they've all got their own personalities as you used to refer to them as well. Um, but you know, I used to say to the account managers, like how often are you engaged, engaging? Because we had national roles. Right. How long, you know Group roles. How long are you engaged? How often do you engage with that hotel? They're like, well, you know, maybe once a fortnight. I said, okay, I think, how often is that revenue manager engaging with that hotel? Oh, several times a day. Okay, yeah. So who's gonna have more influence?

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: They're the one who's talking, so, trying to get them to shape the pitch. And, you know, if it worked out, if, um, it worked out that it wasn't the right piece of business, uh, for the property, I, um, would say to, um, team, okay, let's move on. That's not going to work. Let's go. Understand, I think the important thing, I think it's critical to the commercial success of a hotel that a sales, commercial manager and a revenue manager are aligned at the hip but challenging each other respectfully. Um, and I will name someone. And I, um, haven't spoken to him for a while, but he's a great guy. Um, when I was at Mantra in the New South Wales, when I left a quarter go to Mantra in the New South Wales state role. We had the state role. Um, I remember, um, a person that we both worked in the past, my boss at the time, Luke Moran, come to us and said, can you find another good revenue manager for the state? And I remember there's a guy, Jason Barbour, works at a core. Um, and I'm like, I think we should probably try to go get Jason, um, as well, because I know, I knew when we worked together he would challenge me and I knew that people in the right direction saying yes is not best for the business. You need a colleague who challenges you.

Speaker A: You need a colleague who questions the debate is important. Yeah, like calculated sort of tension is, Is important.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and, you know, um, and he started in the, in the region. We worked side by side. Um, you know, a call. We're always great about that. You know, I remember Kent Warren at the time calling me and going, yeah, that's great. Because they're so such a great company and you know, they like, they're really involved in seeing their executives move into, into, into different roles. Um, but we worked together, challenged each other, but, you know, a really tight ship, um, backed by a really good operation team. You know, our region ended up winning region of the year at Mantra at that time. But I was, it's. You've got to have a respectful, combative, um, open partnership that communicates. Um, I dare say, I think every revenue manager, ah, that I know who are good communicators are either um, now, you know, heading up revenue at um, the likes of Accor IHG Minor, they're doing podcasts, tip the hat. Um, you know, I, um, think. But the ones who, um, weren't good communicators, wouldn't get back to you on emails. Yeah, I'm sure they're still in the industry, but they're not. I don't know where they are. Um, it's the ones who can translate the data, translate the forecasts, um, and create. Turn into a narrative in conjunction with commercial.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's good storytelling, isn't it? And getting people storytelling on board with your ideas, that's, you know, the magic trick that revenue managers and sales managers have to, um, you know, they have to learn that as a skill is in their storytelling. And I've seen, and I wonder if you've observed this too, the most important part of the evolution of the sales and revenue cold war, um, has been that in the olden days, and hopefully it's not out there too much anymore. But in the olden days we used to have Salespeople who had one set of KPIs or incentives that was all about room nights from a certain segment, room nights from corporate, room nights from leisure, just room nights at all costs. But then we have revenue managers that are incentivized or their KPIs or their bonuses are based on things like RGI Revenue Generation Index or RevPAR. And that always meant that they were always at odds and they were never going to be on the same page or working toward the same goal like you said. And whereas now the more evolved businesses have everyone on the team based on the same KPIs, now everyone has a different role to play in achieving STR results or MPI or RGI or you know, the TREV par total revenue per available room, um, for a certain month. Everyone has their own part to play in getting to that result. But when you have people that have conflicting disagreeing incentives, I think that's what used to cause a lot of the, uh, discontent.

Speaker B: Yeah, and that's a really good point, Shannon. I think structurally some things are just set up to be two magnets. Right. They just push, push in opposite directions as well.

Speaker A: Set up to fail.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, but the thing is everyone, the end result in those in any. This is just not hotels. This is any business. You know, when you're working as a team, the end result is to everyone wants success of that hotel. In this instance, that business, um, that flight scheduled route, uh, as well which we're working right now. Everyone wants the success, um, as well. Um, and I think, I always say, I think it's important for both commercial salespeople for revenue, for general managers. Leave your ego at the door when you walk into that room. Um, you know, and keep it.

Speaker A: It's very hard to do, but it's important. It's very hard to do.

Speaker B: It is important. Um, but I think it's, you know, there is, um. You know, sometimes, you know, there are, you know, I've been in rooms where people have the smartest men in the room complex and stuff like that, don't really listen to anyone else. There's nothing I. That, you know, you're not seeing a, um, business, be it a hotel or a flight now not hitting. It's not being optimized as strong or reaching its full potential.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and it's funny, I think, you know, back in. Looking back on hotels days, you know, some of those revenue meetings, strategy meetings, you can kind of walk out of meetings and go, this is not. You walk out and you feel it's not really going to work, um, because there wasn't no synergy there as well. But you're right. I think there's some points where, you know, structure structurally just doesn't quite work between different organizations, you know. And you know what, Shannon? You know, you and I have worked together and been around long enough. You know, I always say, I said to someone the other day, I said, you know who. When, um, a tennis player wins the Australian Open, they celebrate hard. When the Seattle Seahawks won the super bowl the other week, they celebrated harder because they were in a team. And I think the team dynamic creates more satisfaction than being an individual as well.

Speaker A: Such a good analogy. Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, so, um, yeah, go, go out, you know, hit your forecasts, hit your accounts, go out, put some ski goggles on and spray the champagne and celebrate the end of the financial year. That's what you should do.

Speaker A: Such a great analogy. Now, long question alert.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And this is the corporate whisperer question. Uh, your early days in hotels were spent, if I can put it this way, wooing clients, corporate clients and consortia from mantra and Seville. What's the secret to speaking corporate travel manager language? And does that language translate when you're chatting with airline executives? Or. Or do they speak an entirely different dialect? So, uh, like, does it mean, by the way, does it mean that you're bilingual since you speak RevPAR Nadr as well as BLF? Is that right? Break even load factor. Have I got that right? Is that aviation language or Rasc? Admittedly I had to look this up. Revenue per available seat kilometer. Have I got that right?

Speaker B: You have hit the mark, yes. Rasc is to me is the new black. Um, it was Revpar. Now Rask, Rask and Cass. Cost per available seat kilometer as well, as well. So yeah, they're all.

Speaker A: I um, think that makes you bilingual then, Matt.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's um. You know, I was a disappointment to my French teacher in high school, so at least I'm bilingual in something now. Um, it's um. Look, it's been a long time since I managed corporate, but I remember back in the day, really hungry, really ambitious. I always found um, the research side of things really interesting. And you've known me a long time, Shannon. Um, you would probably. I am um, intrigued by, you know, I'm always intrigued and always interested and always searching for things. So. Yeah, curious by nature. Yeah. Um, which is what my wife would refer to as curious by nature. Um, but um, I would sit down and go for the AFR or City Morning Herald, understand what's happening in the market, understand you know what's. Accounts picked up this project. You know what, you know, Defense happens now. Defense prime has picked up, you know what infrastructure. Who's building that, that new tram line, who's building that new road, who's what. Hotels in national roles are close by to that, um, infrastructure projects that might be room nights. That's right, that's right.

Speaker A: Now it might mean flights.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's right, exactly. You know, defense um, is huge in our area and that's, that's a big thing. Um, you know, so um, understanding where the um, you know, and um, building your network and um, you know, look, by the letter of the law, if you look at my um, education being in economics and things like that, probably should have been a revenue manager. I should have been working more with the numbers side of things as well. But you know, I'm m very much all about um, the people side of it as well. That's probably the way it's social science, um, side of things as well. It's. I like to get out and talk to people and understand what their business is. I'm like I said, intrigued and curious by nature as well. So it's all about building a network. Um, and that was building a network work. You know, corporates, um, it's that three way, you know, it's the um, the hotel, the, you know, the tmc, the travel management company, the, the Procurement or supply chain manager as well, working through those, um, those sides of things. But um, yeah, so, but it has been a long time in corporate. I remember when I joined working with you at Mirvac and um, you know, there was great um, people that we worked with, you know, um, Tim Davis and Pat Monoran and, and Greg, you know, Andrew Turner and all those guys and Greg Sear as well. I remember, yeah, yeah. Coming to me and saying, hey, um, we want you to come over and do the leisure sale of things. And I was at the time going, I'm a corporate guy, I'm not doing that. No way. Um, but then got um, convinced to uh, understanding how great that portfolio was and the great that culture was, which it was, um, it was lightning in a bottle, that organization. Um, but you know, it's kind of, I guess, you know, that's probably transferable. I took a bit of a corporate mindset into the leisure side of things and you know, Pat and I, you know, and the team there, you know, represented, you know, ran a very, you know, you know, people still refer to it as the Pattern Match show, uh, as us, those types of things, you know.

Speaker A: Weren't you also called, Weren't you and Pat Muller and also called the Flower Pot Boys?

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, that was one revenue manager. I won't name him, but I think he got that wrong.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, I think he got that wrong. It was the Pat and Matt show. It was wildly successful, the Pat and Met.

Speaker B: But I took that corporate, you know, what I'd learned from, you know, corporate travel management into the, into that um, side of things as well. And, but it helped working with good people. So they, yeah, but um, yeah, I think it's, it's the research. Long story short, it's the research. It's the building the networks, it's understanding um, the um, uh, the needs and the wants of that account and then trying to align it with the needs, the wants, the forecasts, um, the targets of a hotel and to see if they work and um, from there and I guess in those national roles we had, you know, where we got, you know, mantra having 50 hotels, core having over, you know, 130 when I was there, um, the bigger now um Mantra was around 130. You have choice of different hotels to choose from, you know, um, so yeah, but um, yeah, be curious, be inquisitive, research that account, um, get out there and um, understand what they need and uh, try to find a, a solution that's commercially in the best interests, um, for your hotel.

Speaker A: You Mentioned then your economic stays and from your economics degree now to airport operations, that whole journey. You studied economics at Sydney Uni, then you spent 20 years in hospitality and sales before landing in aviation. See what I did there, landing in aviation. Anyway, if you could go back and tell your 21 year old economic student self where you'd end up, what do you think would surprise that Matt about the journey?

Speaker B: Well, I'd have to probably get into the details about it a little bit because they'd be disappointed that I wasn't retired, um, in the Caribbean somewhere, you know, not working in the money market, which is what, you know, you normally expect to do from an economics degree. But, you know, that was, you know, nature of timing. You know, I was working in that industry in the UK and then, you know, some geographical things happen. 9, 11, all those types of things. Visas dried up, had to come back to Australia, but still had that curious travel nature. I hadn't, you know, I wanted to have that travel bug as well. I would say that you've been very lucky. You're very lucky. Um, you've worked in incredible organizations. You've worked with wonderful, intelligent, interesting people and many who have become friends for life. Um, you've had a role that you've been able to travel the world and see. Um, you know, I was thinking about, you know, this the other night. You know, it's not many people can say that they've had, you know, business meetings in London, New York, Shanghai, Dubai, Singapore, you know, and had meaningful meetings in all those places around the world which I've been lucky enough to have.

Speaker A: It's, uh, a luxury, right?

Speaker B: It's a luxury. Well, yeah, it is, it seems like it. Um, but you know, I, I'm, you know, hard work. Yeah, yeah, well, I'm, I'm on a, um.

Speaker A: It's not always glamorous, I know.

Speaker B: No, no, no, it's not. It's, it's hard work. I'm overseas on a work trip next week and I'm only away for uh, uh, 28 hours or something like that, you know, so everyone goes, oh my

Speaker A: God, you must have an enviable frequent flyer point balance.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, the, um, the statuses are good. Uh, but, yeah, but no, I would, um, I would, uh, say that, you know, um, work hard, you're a hard worker, um, build respect in your industry. Um, I think that's the whole thing. It's an old cliche, but if you sell yourself first, what you represent is of high, um, credibility as well. I'd say, um, to myself as a graduating student, um, in the late 90s. That didn't quite work out. But it's okay. The journey's been really interesting. It's been amazing. You're a lucky person to work in amazing, amazing industries. Amazing companies, work with amazing people. Um, and to have a, um, lucky to have a wonderful family.

Speaker A: That's beautiful, man. Closing final question. Yeah, we wrap every Hotelier Huddle podcast episode with the same question. It's a final toast. I know it's a little bit early for cocktail hour, but if you are raising your toast. Yeah, I've got my French vanilla iced coffee here. If you're ra. A glass to celebrate hoteliers everywhere. What would your toast be?

Speaker B: Embrace what you do. Um, you have a cool industry. Uh, it's interesting. It's not boring. Um, you know, this, you know, it's, you're not getting up. It's not like, you know, the TV show severance, you're plugging in and you just kind of going for a boring mundane. Hey, you know, things are different. You've got interesting people coming in to your hotels. You know, they might be here for a, ah, you know, for an interesting conference or a work thing or for a family gathering. You know, it's, you know, um, it's, it's, um, it's a great industry. Um, I'd also say, and I remember in my early days, you gave me this advice actually once, um, about, um. You did? Yeah. Um, you know, back in the early days, I used to work really long hours, late hours, and work really hard. And I remember you telling me once going, I mean, you say Matt Borger, you know, when you, when it's all over, uh, and on the graveyard, it's not going to say he loves Matt borger, who works 16 hours a day. Um, that type of thing. I think our industry works is, you know, we're hard workers, we put the long hours in. But I think you've got to. You know, what I've learned over the last couple of years that things have happened, um, in the world is you've got to smell the roses every little bit. You got to enjoy what you're doing. The industry has a really strong reputation for work ethic. And I think knowing what happened, you know, the wash up of the pandemic, you know, a lot of people left the industry, but people I know who have gone and into other industries and they got those roles because they've got a strong work ethic. Reputation.

Speaker A: That's right. Well, they had, uh, analytical skills or they had transferable skills that they, or qualifications or just skills that you just don't get in a lot of industries that are transferable to, you know, other things. And I think you know, part of the uh, you know, 16 hour workday thing that does happen with a lot of hoteliers is I think like the nature of hotels and even airlines is that they operate 24, 7 and except in Sydney where the airport closes at 11. But nevermind hotels, um, especially, you know, they operate 24, 7 and so you're always, even as a revenue manager, if you leave work at 5, 6, 7, 8 o' clock at night, you're mindful of the fact that the hotel has a few hundred souls sleeping above the building all the time. And so the nature of this 24 hour business means it does pull you into long work days and this 24 hour mentality of always having on your mind, um, what's happening in your job. Whereas in other jobs or other industries you do your job, you check out, you go home and you don't think about it until you turn up again. Not the same with hoteliers, is it?

Speaker B: No, it's not, it's not. Um, and again, again, structurally that's the nature of the beast. Right? You know, you're right. 247 businesses as well. So I think, but I do think it's really important, um, you know, for your career advancement, um, for your own sanity as well, just to kind of take a pause every now and then and you know, and like I said, smell the roses. Other advice I'd just give as well is find good people who challenge you and who support you and have got your back. Um, yeah, I've been incredibly lucky to have worked with people who again I've said I've maintained strong friendships but professional relationships. I was incredibly lucky to work at organizations like um, where you had really impressive leaders, um, in hotels like you know, as we mentioned, Andrew Turner and a mirvac or Simon McGraw and a core or Bob east at Mantra, you know, who are all, you know, I think HMO at all hall of Famers. So incredible to work in those offices with them and not, you know, in most instances you're not working directly with the CEO, uh, at that stage of the career, but you're working with the executives who are just below them and that filtered through and dripped down. So they provided a high standard, those gentlemen, those hoteliers I should say, um, and you know, and the executives that work for them. So um, find, find good people, um, the ones who can make you better and the last thing I'll probably say is, um, especially for my role, and I found that's worked for me, is numbers, data, uh, revenue management. Vitally important, of course, but embrace your emotional intelligence. Embrace your eq. Um, you know, use the data. You know, data and analytics especially. What we're doing right now is vital. But understand the, uh, commercial partners, what's vital to their success, because I can guarantee you, if you can do that, you will have more success than failures in the role.

Speaker A: It's a great toast. You know, stop and smell the roses, or I had someone put it to me is, um, put down the dumpster fire you're juggling and go lick a sunbeam.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I like that. Lick a sunbag.

Speaker A: Thank you so much. Matt Borger. Thanks for doing this. Nice to see you.

Speaker B: It's my pleasure.

Speaker A: It's always nice to chat with you. We could do a whole podcast on any one of those topics we just briefly covered. Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.

Speaker B: Thank you, Shannon. And thank you again. Just to, you know, to load for the final toast is thanks for being, uh, a wonderful friend, an industry colleague who I can always rely on with regards to meaningful, uh, insights, support. Um, you've always been a wonderful friend, and I, um, cherish our friendship.

Speaker A: Thank you. That's very nice to say. Or I'm always just good for a corny, bad joke, you know, that, you

Speaker B: know, I'm good at them.

Speaker A: Thanks for doing this. Nice to see you.