Grow Places · 2026-06-23 · 36 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
42 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Muyiwa Oki brings deep experience from prestigious architectural practices including Grimshaws and Glenn House Architects, now working at MACE on major infrastructure projects like HS2 and Hinkley Point. During his tenure as RIBA president, he championed issues affecting young architects - particularly uncompensated overtime and barriers to entry through expensive university degrees - and pushed for Level 7 apprenticeships to democratize access to the profession. A pivotal moment came early in his presidency when he had to serve as spokesperson for the architecture industry on the reinforced autoclaved concrete (RAC) issue affecting 1960s-70s buildings, which crystallized his conviction that institutional leaders must communicate complex technical matters in plain language without jargon. He calls this approach "communicating in primary colours" - speaking in everyday language to build public trust, ensure diverse voices shape community design, and prevent exclusion through obscure terminology. This philosophy directly applies to developers and built environment professionals engaged in community consultation and regeneration projects who need to translate complicated processes into accessible language that resonates with local stakeholders.
It means using plain English without jargon, big words, or acronyms to explain complex issues so that ordinary people can understand. Oki learned this necessity when briefed days before appearing on Channel 4 news to explain the reinforced autoclaved concrete crisis affecting 1960s-70s buildings.
Long and expensive seven-year university degrees exclude people who cannot afford fees, and postgraduate requirements mean many potential apprentices are over 21 - a problem when apprenticeship schemes disqualify older applicants. Low pay prospects and uncompensated overtime further deter talented candidates from poorer backgrounds.
He focused on the asymmetry between employers and young architects, particularly the requirement for overtime work without overtime pay compensation, and advocated for Level 7 apprenticeships to create alternative pathways to registration beyond expensive university routes.
Though not a pure building, the Elizabeth Line was architecture-led infrastructure that stitches communities together through transport, demonstrating that architects contribute to public fabric beyond housing and merit recognition for their role in major community infrastructure projects.
He implemented a regional calendar to maintain regular in-person contact with all 12 RIBA regions plus international members, ensuring direct "skin to skin contact" with local architect communities to listen and build relationships rather than govern from above.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
There are a handful of worthwhile points - the 'primary colours' communication metaphor born from institutional crisis management, the architecture-education-as-theoretical-cooking analogy, and the Level 7 apprenticeship age-limit logic - but the episode is heavily padded with filler, meandering anecdote, and general statements that any informed observer already knows. The insight rate is low for a 36-minute runtime.
the ability to communicate and to communicate in like um primary colours, that's what I call primary colours, so no um no big words, talk in plain English
the architecture um education system is like a baker or uh a chef that doesn't doesn't learn how to to bake a bread, bread or or cook a dish. You're just thinking about it in theory.
The 'communicate in primary colours' framing is the episode's only genuinely fresh concept, and the argument for unstructured public space is a coherent if well-worn urbanism position. The financialization-of-real-estate critique and the diversity-in-profession argument are standard industry discourse with no contrarian twist or first-principles reasoning.
communicate in like um primary colours, like I say
A space big enough for people to just like use willy-nilly. Yeah, not structured, unstructured space. People will put the structures around it.
Muyiwa Oki has genuine and unusual credentials - youngest person of colour to lead a 200-year-old professional institution, now practising at a major construction consultancy on large infrastructure programmes - and this gives the episode real authority. However, the conversation does not sufficiently extract the depth that his background should enable; many answers stay surface-level.
I'm the youngest person of color to hold the role of president of the RIBA, a 200-year-old uh institution
I had to go on you know channel four and other news um um bulletin to talk about what the issues are, and I only got briefed like you know a couple of days before that
The episode does name real examples - the RAAC crisis, the Elizabeth Line Stirling Prize, King's Cross Granary Square, Grimshaws, 4 million pieces in the RIBA archive - but produces no quantitative outcomes, no fee or salary data despite discussing pay inequality, and no before-and-after evidence for any claim. Named examples function as illustrations rather than evidence.
the last one was um the Elizabeth Line. And it was a kind of like sort of off-kelter choice because it wasn't a pure building
the RIBA architecture collections that uh has over four million pieces of drawings, artifacts, periodicals and all that kind of stuff
The host consistently poses broad, multi-part questions, offers unprompted extended editorialising that crowds out the guest, and never challenges a single claim. Affirmations like 'Yeah, no, fascinating' and 'Yeah, yeah, totally' dominate transitions, and there are no meaningful follow-ups that push the guest toward precision or disagreement.
And um, and for you for you personally, then, you know, do you have a sense of you know, having gone through that experience, you know, why is architecture important? Why are architects important you know, fundamentally?
Yeah, no, fascinating.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this episode, Tom Larsson is joined by Muyiwa Oki, architect, former RIBA president, and now at Mace, to explore what it takes to reform a 200-year-old institution from the inside, why technical grounding matters more than ever for architects, and how the built environment can better serve the communities it shapes. Muyiwa traces a deliberate route through smaller practices, building technical foundations before moving into large-scale infrastructure delivery at Mace. He shares what drove him to stand for the RIBA presidency, a campaign rooted in the uncompensated overtime that defined his generation's experience of the profession, and how holding that role sharpened his ability to lead, communicate, and advocate under pressure. The conversation covers the barriers that continue to narrow who enters architecture: the length and cost of training, and the structural gap between education and practice. Muyiwa makes the case for level seven apprenticeships, for building regulations to be embedded in architectural education, and for architects to embrace the principal designer role as a step towards reclaiming responsibility across the full project lifecycle.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
1 - > SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Grow Places Podcast, where 2 - > we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth, and place. 3 - > Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, Tom 4 - > Larson. 5 - > SPEAKER_02: Hi. 6 - > How are you doing?
7 - > SPEAKER_01: I'm very well, thank you. 8 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great to see you and great to be here at the 9 - > Barbican. 10 - > SPEAKER_01: Thank you for inviting me to the podcast. 11 - > SPEAKER_02: No, no, not at all.
12 - > It's really a pleasure to have you on and um really fascinated 13 - > to hear more about what you're up to now and obviously um you 14 - > know how you got to where you are. 15 - > So um yeah, thanks for joining, and why don't you take it from 16 - > the top? 17 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um like you said, my name is Moiwa Oki. 18 - > I'm uh I'm a childhood architect.
19 - > I have coming up to 10, 15 years of um architectural experience. 20 - > Um so pretty young for for an architect. 21 - > Uh and um I I I work for a multinational construction 22 - > consultancy company called MACE, and we do everything really from 23 - > your um housing projects and master plans all the way to big 24 - > infrastructure projects like um HS2, um Hinckley, all that kind 25 - > of stuff. 26 - > So it's uh it's a multitude of experiences and and sort of deep 27 - > deep expertise in in the technical uh delivery of 28 - > projects.
29 - > Um before that I have quite um um sort of targeted technical um 30 - > understanding from an architectural point of view. 31 - > I cut my teeth with um uh uh uh experience across um you know 32 - > Grimshaws, Glenn House architects, backer architects, 33 - > some um architectural practice focusing on um water 34 - > architecture, architecture that loads. 35 - > Um and uh so I have a a broad brush. 36 - > I remember taking it as a point when I started my part one year 37 - > out, as I'm doing this in a smaller practice just so that I 38 - > understand details.
39 - > And I was very purposeful about that so that I can go up to the 40 - > next stage and next stage and the next stage. 41 - > And I when I talk to my mentees and such, I always tell them, 42 - > you know, try and get the technical understanding so that 43 - > you can dig that to the next level. 44 - > Um, so that's what I did, and I employ everyone to do that. 45 - > But for my sins, um something that makes me kind of famous in 46 - > the architecture environment is that um I'm the youngest person 47 - > of color to hold the role of president of the RIBA, a 48 - > 200-year-old uh institution.
49 - > And I did it because I felt, and a court of my friends and 50 - > colleagues felt, that um the plight of the young architect 51 - > wasn't um taken into consideration. 52 - > And I wanted to ensure that the profession um wrestled with and 53 - > acknowledged the fact that um the asymmetry between employer 54 - > and employee, which was my generation, um, wasn't taken 55 - > into account. 56 - > And you can see that it manifested itself in the 57 - > imbalance uh in pay when it comes to overtime pay, to be 58 - > particular.
59 - > Um overtime was required, but overtime pay wasn't um uh 60 - > required or compensated. 61 - > And that's what I wanted to talk about. 62 - > That was one of my the through line in my campaign for 63 - > presidency that I won. 64 - > Um, and I had the seat for two years and um I made uh uh an 65 - > incremental change, but uh change nonetheless to direct the 66 - > institution to look at the future.
67 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, fascinating. 68 - > And um and so you know I'd love to dive into different 69 - > components of obviously the the work with the ROBA and and what 70 - > you're doing now, but just just generally for you, you know, as 71 - > an individual, like how how do you have a sense of how you've 72 - > kind of got to where you are, you know, why you've done that? 73 - > It's not a it's an amazing journey you've gone on, but it's 74 - > not a typical journey, you know, what driving you to do that?
75 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's a set the sense of unfairness and 76 - > inequality. 77 - > Um as you as you probably know, if you read my Wikipedia. 78 - > One of the things, the surprising things that uh comes 79 - > out of the woodworks when you do something out of the ordinary is 80 - > that some people write Wikipedia pages about you. 81 - > So I have a Wikipedia, but I don't know who wrote it.
82 - > Anyway, and the Wikipedia says that um I'm of Nigerian descent. 83 - > And in Nigeria, um, because I grew up in partially in Nigeria, 84 - > the sense that inequality is very stark. 85 - > You see it between if you walk out the door. 86 - > Um fortunate enough, my parents did well enough to insulate us a 87 - > little bit from that inequality.
88 - > Uh so what I live with it. 89 - > Um and here in the UK, it's not as apparent, but it's there. 90 - > And it's very in the architecture industry, there is, 91 - > I don't know if it's changed dramatically, but there is that 92 - > sense of well, you have to go through the hard guards uh that 93 - > I did in my previous generation. 94 - > And I thought that's um in this day and age in the 21st century, 95 - > that shouldn't be the case.
96 - > So that's the sense that's what the sense of like well fair of 97 - > fairness that drives me. 98 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 99 - > Yeah, no, well, I completely agree. 100 - > And um I think architecture is it's always if you look back 101 - > over history, it's it's often been sort of a more elite 102 - > profession in inverted commas.
103 - > Yeah. 104 - > Um and and and there's been a there was, you know, there was a 105 - > period where, you know, probably 60s period where that wasn't 106 - > necessarily the case post-war. 107 - > Um, but definitely I think that that has it increased that um 108 - > that sense of uh a narrowing of the the pool of people who are 109 - > involved in it, and and you're probably better placed than most 110 - > to sort of talk about why you think that is. 111 - > And um yeah, so it'd be good to get your thoughts.
112 - > Obviously, from us as a as a developer, as a commissioner of 113 - > architecture, of architects and other consultancies, you know, 114 - > we want as as good a representation of uh the places 115 - > in the neighbourhoods where we're working to come through in 116 - > our team. 117 - > So we look to work with local architects or uh have 118 - > intentionally like have um teams selected for their obviously 119 - > their technical merit and their their reputation, but also to 120 - > try to create a diversity of voices within within project 121 - > teams.
122 - > And if that isn't coming through from uh architectural profession 123 - > or other professions, you know, that that that um that we all 124 - > lose something, I think, from that. 125 - > SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there is a thing that I say and I said when 126 - > I was in office was you know, if we want the the societies and 127 - > the communities that we build for, we need to ensure that um 128 - > there's a there's a there's a plurality of the people who can 129 - > have a say in designer, and that's the where the architect 130 - > comes in.
131 - > So that's why the whole the whole idea of like campaigning 132 - > for uh level seven apprenticeships was we we as a 133 - > um the royal we with the Reba really focused on it because if 134 - > we um exclude folks who can't go to university with the seven 135 - > years degrees that we have, um we are only going to get the 136 - > type of people who can afford to do so. 137 - > Um I actually don't know where that that that campaign is at 138 - > the moment, but the where when I left the seat of the presidency, 139 - > we were really focusing on how we can implore the government to 140 - > rethink um rethink the the level seven apprenticeship um um um 141 - > attitude.
142 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 143 - > Yeah, and also you mentioned pay earlier, it's all it's all 144 - > connected, isn't it? 145 - > Because there's partly like uh you know getting a place at 146 - > university, being able to fund the fees, the length of the 147 - > course, but then there's the economic prospects when you you 148 - > come out, and frankly, none of those are very compelling, 149 - > really, are they for architecture for a person who 150 - > needs to be an architect, yeah.
151 - > SPEAKER_01: So that needs to change. 152 - > Yeah, and I know it's gonna take multi-stakeholders, is the 153 - > government needs to look at their education program, 154 - > especially for apprentices. 155 - > If architects need to have a postgraduate to become 156 - > registered architect, um, most postgrads are over 21. 157 - > That means your apprenticeship scheme can't disqualify anyone 158 - > who's over 21.
159 - > Yeah. 160 - > Um so that's that means you have a joint-up thinking about it. 161 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 162 - > And so so talk talk me through.
163 - > I'm fascinated to understand. 164 - > You've met you've mentioned sort of the deeper reason why you 165 - > wanted to put yourself forward initially for the presidency, 166 - > and then the process of you know doing that, being selected, and 167 - > then you know, those two years, what was that like? 168 - > And how maybe are you the same person now? 169 - > Do you have a different outlook?
170 - > Is it sharper? 171 - > You know, how how do you see all of that for yourself? 172 - > SPEAKER_01: It's definitely sharper, it's definitely 173 - > sharper. 174 - > Um I mean when we were talking off camera, uh, I did mention 175 - > that there was a sense sense of like uh naivety going into it.
176 - > Um especially because I was very laser focused on uh the issue 177 - > that I really cared about, and I forgot about the other things 178 - > that you gotta do as president. 179 - > For example, the judging you have to do for the Royal Gold 180 - > Medal, and I I didn't it just didn't occur to me in the in the 181 - > whole campaign process at all. 182 - > But that those were the nice things. 183 - > So the nice sort of soft power things, um, choosing who gets to 184 - > be the Royal Gold Medal, choosing who gets to be the um 185 - > Sterling Prize uh recipient.
186 - > But those were um, I say, um, drivers of like what was 187 - > important to me. 188 - > Uh, because you're chair of all these committees and such. 189 - > And um I remember um in the panel uh choosing or we having a 190 - > short list of um um of projects for the Sterling Prize, and we 191 - > really went for the last time, the last one was um the 192 - > Elizabeth Line. 193 - > And it was a kind of like sort of off-kelter choice because it 194 - > wasn't a pure building, but if you think about it 195 - > architecturally, it was an architecture-led uh project, 196 - > like um uh an architecture company.
197 - > Um, so that's it's a it's a it's a good story to tell that 198 - > architects don't just live in the the sort of like housing 199 - > realm. 200 - > Um we do everything to do with community and infrastructure, 201 - > the the the fabric that's that stitches um the community 202 - > together, which the transport does as well. 203 - > So it was also a fantastic uh conversation, and and I think 204 - > those were the things that I really enjoyed when uh when in 205 - > office, and I think now that I'm out of it, I get a sense that 206 - > you know we just need to continue having this 207 - > conversation about good design, public space, community in the 208 - > open so that more people can talk about it.
209 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, totally. 210 - > And you know, it couldn't be more apps. 211 - > You know, we're sat in the public spaces here at the 212 - > Barbican, you know, maybe people listening can hear there's music 213 - > playing in the background over your shoulder, there's a couple 214 - > practicing their dance routine. 215 - > Yeah.
216 - > Um public place public space is is super important, isn't it? 217 - > And just that that sense that the city is for people. 218 - > Yeah. 219 - > Um you've mentioned it professionally, but also, yeah, 220 - > that that's a big sort of responsibility as architects 221 - > that the profession has, and and not by extension, developers and 222 - > everyone, everyone working in cities and in a built 223 - > environment.
224 - > Um and just to have that representation, I think, is is 225 - > critical. 226 - > Um so, and as you say, it must have also been like you know, a 227 - > real like privilege and you know, um opportunity to to be 228 - > within those circles and to do that. 229 - > And so so you know, because you how how did you feel like 230 - > stepping into the institution then so to speak? 231 - > SPEAKER_01: And because it is, you know, it was it wasn't it 232 - > was slightly daunting, I I must say.
233 - > Um I I remember there was one time um that I had to like deal, 234 - > I had to deal with I think it was the first week um that I had 235 - > to like deal with an issue. 236 - > Um oh yes, it was the fracking, no, the the RAC concrete issue. 237 - > Yeah, if you remember the auto-re uh reinforced 238 - > auto-erated concrete back in the 60s and 70s. 239 - > And that just that that came in the first week of my my term in 240 - > in office, and I just we they they needed um a spokesperson 241 - > for the architecture industry or the design industry and um and 242 - > builders, and they called on the RIBA and the representative was 243 - > me.
244 - > So I had to go on you know channel four and other news um 245 - > um bulletin to talk about what the issues are, and I only got 246 - > briefed like you know a couple of days before that, you know. 247 - > So that was that was daunting, but also I really enjoyed that. 248 - > I really now that one thing that I have that I've taken from it 249 - > is this sort of um the the ability to communicate and to 250 - > communicate in like um primary colours, that's what I call 251 - > primary colours, so no um no big words, talk in plain English, 252 - > um, and I I feel like that's now it's it's a it's a core skill 253 - > that everyone needs to do, especially with AI and such.
254 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, no, I completely agree. 255 - > And like, you know, for us when we're talking about bringing 256 - > forward development, regeneration in in places like 257 - > that element of communication through we you know, the 258 - > consultation process, if you want to call it that, you know, 259 - > engaging with local people, with local businesses, um you know, 260 - > how how do you turn really quite complicated things and projects 261 - > and processes into things which are uh understandable and use 262 - > everyday language?
263 - > And I think you know, the more that we can try to do that as a 264 - > as an in industry, you know, and as people generally, to share 265 - > ideas, um to find kind of common ground and and and not exclude 266 - > people through a language that we use, no acronyms and other 267 - > things like that. 268 - > Um I think that's really like super important for building 269 - > trust, building engagement, um connections between people and 270 - > and people having a sense that they the places that we're 271 - > developing are for them.
272 - > Yeah, yeah. 273 - > Um so I don't know how you've uh that that element of um yeah 274 - > building building trust within what you've done, like how that 275 - > must have been important for you because you're you know any 276 - > position of leadership particularly like that, you're 277 - > you're you know, i it's sort of a political aspect as well, 278 - > isn't it? 279 - > It's like sort of how do you how do you lead, how do you bring 280 - > people along that journey with you?
281 - > SPEAKER_01: So the one thing that I don't know if anyone 282 - > advised me on that, but I knew inherently was you know having 283 - > that sort of skin to skin contact with people. 284 - > And one of the one of the things that I I implemented for the 285 - > president's office was a calendar for um touching base 286 - > with all the different regions. 287 - > So the RIBA splits um the regional regional um map into 288 - > 12, I think. 289 - > Um Northeast, Northwest, Midlands, and international.
290 - > So I have the calendar to say that I need to go to all of the 291 - > regions. 292 - > I didn't go to all of them in the end, but I need to at least 293 - > have a base with a school of architecture and uh um an office 294 - > of architect a rebo chartered um office in at least as much as 295 - > more as more regions as I could. 296 - > And if we could if I could tie it in with an activity that 297 - > we're already gonna do, for example, UK Reef we're talking 298 - > about, I'm in Leeds, so I'll go to UK Reef, but also go and see 299 - > a university school of architecture and a couple of um 300 - > um architecture practices, just so that I think some people most 301 - > people just want to know that they are being heard.
302 - > And I don't I mean I don't want to minimize what I did there, 303 - > but not that much, really. 304 - > Well the the the well the one key thing was that the HQ came 305 - > to us, came to our our practice, came to our school of 306 - > architecture and really talked to us and understood what we 307 - > were doing. 308 - > And it was actually helpful for me because we in on a board 309 - > level, on a council level, I could go back, I could collect 310 - > all that those information and feed it back on a board level 311 - > and say, look, this is leaves.
312 - > They said XYZ, can we look into it? 313 - > So it helped me in my communications back uh so that I 314 - > don't look, I have things to offer at a at a board meeting 315 - > and such, but also I I felt like it meant quite a lot to people's 316 - > in you know Newcastle say say, oh wow, the president of the RIB 317 - > came to us and talked to us about what we need, and he's 318 - > thinking it back, um, we're happy with it, we we feel 319 - > considered. 320 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, no, that's great, isn't it?
321 - > And as you say, it's meeting people where they are, going, 322 - > taking the effort, the time to to to go and see people. 323 - > Yeah, whether it's getting out of your office or getting out of 324 - > your city or whatever it is, and and um yeah, just showing up 325 - > really and being there. 326 - > And I think that as you say, there's a huge amount that 327 - > people people take from that. 328 - > And um, and how did you think because the ROBA is is obviously 329 - > it's a a UK um regulatory body, but it's got a global kind of 330 - > reach to it, hasn't it, as well?
331 - > And and culturally, yeah, um, it's synonymous with kind of 332 - > architecture design, standards, good quality. 333 - > Um and so yeah, how did you did did you have much involvement 334 - > internationally in terms of that and how do you how do you think 335 - > about that personally as well, you know? 336 - > SPEAKER_01: You know, the RIBA it's funny, the RIBA in terms of 337 - > like uh reputationally, internationally is perceived 338 - > like you know, top tier, best in class.
339 - > It's the oldest architecture institution in the world. 340 - > Not the biggest because the AIA, the Americans do it better, 341 - > they're bigger. 342 - > Um but when I had to had the opportunity and the luxury of um 343 - > going and representing the RIBA at um the Venice Biennale, all 344 - > the other um international architecture and design 345 - > conferences, and especially in like Asia, they they love the 346 - > RIBA. 347 - > They they they can't speak highly of the RIBA, and I think 348 - > it's because um the standards that we set.
349 - > So the plan of work, they use it in Malaysia, Singapore, um, 350 - > China even. 351 - > Um the the contracts, it's it's the sort of the gold standard as 352 - > it were for um architectural projects, um especially for 353 - > smaller projects. 354 - > Um so it's on the international sense, it's looked at 355 - > fantastically. 356 - > And I managed to um open up an a European branch, so a cast wider 357 - > net in Europe, and currently there's talks about having an 358 - > Africa uh branch as well.
359 - > Um but in the UK it's it's the the it's kind of the reverse. 360 - > Where because we're closer home, um the UK chartership scene 361 - > looks at that RIBA as just a London institution. 362 - > Um and that's I mean perhaps that's why I decided um is 363 - > innately just to go out and touch touch have touch points 364 - > with um the different regions in the UK just to assuage that 365 - > feeling, whether it's justified or not, that the RIBA is London 366 - > only. 367 - > Where do you think that comes from, then that sense?
368 - > The sense is just because you know the headquarters here is in 369 - > London, the the the library, most of the events are in 370 - > London, the library is in London, and then there was the 371 - > the House of Architecture project, which is the project 372 - > that my predecessor started up, kickstarted, and um my my uh 373 - > session of council pushed it forward to refurbish um the 374 - > headquarters and find a like lasting home for the 375 - > architecture collections that uh has over four million pieces of 376 - > drawings, artifacts, periodicals and all that kind of stuff.
377 - > So um it was a once-in-the-generation little 378 - > thing that needed to be done, but it was all happening in 379 - > London, so therefore everyone again added fuel to the fire 380 - > that everything is in London. 381 - > What does that it's kind of like that um um uh uh um scene in um 382 - > in what's it called? 383 - > In that what do what does Rome ever do for us? 384 - > Yeah with multi-python, right?
385 - > What does Rome ever do for us? 386 - > And it's kind of like that, yeah. 387 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah. 388 - > Um and uh and for you for you personally, then, you know, do 389 - > you have a sense of you know, having gone through that 390 - > experience, you know, why is architecture important?
391 - > Why are architects important you know, fundamentally? 392 - > And how do you see that like empowering you personally into 393 - > what you do at Mace now and sort of moving forwards? 394 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, architecture is super important because it's 395 - > the glue that binds the project together. 396 - > I see it very, very starkly in the work that I do here at Mace, 397 - > where, for example, there was a bid that we were working on and 398 - > it's a multi, it's like a large site international.
399 - > And there is this conversation about just answering the 400 - > questions. 401 - > And then when someone like me and the team were involved, we 402 - > started to like liaise with the engineers and talk about, okay, 403 - > so what does that look like for the end user? 404 - > And it's very easy for the consultant team across the 405 - > project lifecycle to just think about their um bit, their square 406 - > or their bit of the project. 407 - > And there isn't that sort of, there's only one person or one 408 - > consultant that looks at the thread, uh, that ties it all 409 - > together and what the output looks like.
410 - > And that's what the architect does. 411 - > And so therefore, I think it's important for architects to 412 - > share that value creation, is that sort of cultural um value 413 - > that we add to a project that makes it um usable, that makes 414 - > it user-friendly, that makes it last like the barbecue can for 415 - > 50-60 years. 416 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, no, it's fascinating. 417 - > And um, and I think also because you know, I think you know, it's 418 - > great to have you you on and you get your perspectives, and I 419 - > think not only from the work you've done at the ROBA, but the 420 - > fact that you're an architect working for a contractor or a 421 - > consultancy contractor, yeah, you know, all of that is 422 - > atypical from the traditional architects as in their role that 423 - > is then, as we talked about, from maybe a certain background 424 - > and doing a certain type of practice that talks to a certain 425 - > type of people and works in a certain type of way.
426 - > And I think that's so refreshing that. 427 - > So, and you know, I've worked done a lot of work with Mace 428 - > over the years, and I know that they're incredible at what they 429 - > do, both the consultant side and the contractor side, but they 430 - > are fully integrated. 431 - > You know, you're not you're not um you're not there with 432 - > architecture on a sort of upper level pedestal above everything 433 - > else. 434 - > You're you're probably working out what's right for the 435 - > project, what's most efficient, what's best use of materials, 436 - > what's technically deliverable.
437 - > Um so that perspective on an architect, how do you see in 438 - > practice now, you know, as opposed to in um the ROBA type 439 - > role? 440 - > Like how how do you see that and the value that you bring 441 - > day-to-day to MACE and to those projects? 442 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, I I think again, I when I talk to my 443 - > mentees and such, um, I do believe uh a core competency is 444 - > the technical understanding, and I think it's now then to like 445 - > translate that technical understanding into something 446 - > that is um uh usable and like like communicating in the like 447 - > primary colours, like I say.
448 - > Um and one of the reasons why I'm um at a company like Mace is 449 - > because I wanted to really strengthen my technical capacity 450 - > and technical understanding, um, sort of the the technical 451 - > deliverability of things. 452 - > And that's that's where I think more architects could uh benefit 453 - > from. 454 - > Um and also the education system needs to um gear itself towards 455 - > that. 456 - > Because I remember reading this um an article, I think it was on 457 - > the RIBA journal or AJ or something, and about like how 458 - > the architecture um education system is like a baker or uh a 459 - > chef that doesn't doesn't learn how to to bake a bread, bread or 460 - > or cook a dish.
461 - > You're just thinking about it in theory. 462 - > And I think that sort of grounded on a technical level, 463 - > um, even if it's cursory, um, needs to be uh I I I would say 464 - > in my in my in my in my review or feedback to education 465 - > establishments, you know, we need to put in the statutory 466 - > elements to it. 467 - > So like I remember not having to really consider building 468 - > regulations at university because you knew that, well, 469 - > that didn't really matter.
470 - > And I think that needs to be tested in a more rigorous way, 471 - > so that by the time you get out of university, there is a 472 - > there's a sense that there's a there's the statutory compliance 473 - > to the fantastical things that I'm designing and talking about 474 - > the theoretically it really. 475 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh very well said, because you know, as a 476 - > client, um, and I obviously started in architecture, so I 477 - > have seen both sides, but as a client, the value that we see 478 - > from architects, yes, it is in the aesthetic and um bringing 479 - > ideas and unlocking value in terms of getting massing and you 480 - > know unlocking complex problems, but it's really actually in that 481 - > professional responsibility to ensure that the building is 482 - > delivered well, that it is safe, that it is put together well, 483 - > that it's gonna last.
484 - > Yeah, you're coordinated with all your other consultancies. 485 - > And I think that that notion of the historic master builder, 486 - > however you want to call it, yes, architecture's not that 487 - > now, and that's probably fine, but some element of that's 488 - > definitely been lost over the years, and a focus more on the 489 - > aesthetic or on the or on the theoretical or on the 490 - > architectural narrative for that. 491 - > And and I think so. 492 - > I don't think that's as valuable to clients, I don't think it's 493 - > as valuable to architectural practices and it ties to fees, 494 - > it ties then to how are you preparing people to come into 495 - > the working world.
496 - > And um, you know, Kia, Regan, Alexander, and I from uh had a 497 - > conversation about this on the podcast. 498 - > Yeah, yeah, yeah. 499 - > We were sort of saying, you know, in this world that's 500 - > transforming with AI and and other things, yeah, really the 501 - > architect um needs to hold on to and if not regain some of that 502 - > technical competence and that responsibility and really own 503 - > that in a positive sense. 504 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
505 - > Um you talked about safety, and again, one thing that um the 506 - > RIBA that led within the RIBA was the principal designer role 507 - > with BSA. 508 - > Um and again, it's it's still a little bit of wild, wild west 509 - > because anyone can be a principal designer. 510 - > Um but it was imperative that the RIBA led for the architects 511 - > to take on that role because it is um a statutory um uh uh 512 - > requirement now. 513 - > It's gonna be for high-risk builders in particular.
514 - > And so therefore, it kind of like you say, like you say, kind 515 - > of takes or gives the architects that ability to take control 516 - > over the various um issues across the project lifecycle 517 - > when it comes to risk and apportioning risk and on 518 - > understanding and measured and and and dealing with risk when 519 - > it comes to the entire project, not just the facade. 520 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I completely agree, and I think 521 - > that's gonna prepare those students, as you said, like for 522 - > working life as well as well, you know, and and to be valuable 523 - > to practice from from day one.
524 - > Yeah. 525 - > Um, I know that the counter-arguments for that 526 - > within architecture is that you know, definitely during part 527 - > one, you don't want to, you don't you don't want to stifle 528 - > people's creativity, but equally there has to be that reality of 529 - > like the actual day job of what you're doing and where you add 530 - > value and to to businesses and practice. 531 - > And um yeah, so maybe then like looking forwards, then maybe 532 - > that's a nice segue to that.
533 - > Like, how do you see, you know, you're still still a young man, 534 - > you know, you've done an amazing amount in your career so far, 535 - > but how do you see that kind of platform, you know, moving 536 - > forwards for you? 537 - > And uh yeah, how do you think about the future? 538 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, I I I haven't thought too much about the 539 - > future, funnily enough, because uh, like I said, I'm I'm getting 540 - > married in not too long. 541 - > Uh so now I'm just kind of like hunkering hunkering down and 542 - > doing the day job.
543 - > But I do really want to focus, like hone my skills a little bit 544 - > more about on the delivery side. 545 - > So like you know in my 10 coming up to 15 years in practice, I've 546 - > only delivered like one building from start to finish. 547 - > I know it's not that, it's not like a bad one or anything, but 548 - > I I would want to like have a couple of other um significant 549 - > projects under my belt. 550 - > Um uh I would also want to uh start or have some sort of um 551 - > touch points with um uh South Saharan Africa uh when it when 552 - > it comes to design and development, uh especially 553 - > because they are rapidly that rapidly developing.
554 - > Um it'd be great to um you know have have a have a outreach 555 - > there and build something and try to um get uh this little 556 - > policy and trust back into like the the built environment over 557 - > there. 558 - > So that's one something, but then that's super super far in 559 - > the future, and I don't have yet as yet uh uh uh uh a way in 560 - > which that will be delivered, but that's that's the idea. 561 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah. 562 - > And well you mentioned to me off mic that planning a Nigerian 563 - > wedding is is quite a feature in terms of people and uh things 564 - > like that.
565 - > SPEAKER_01: So exactly. 566 - > And it's it's international, so coordinating between here and 567 - > there and getting everyone together, it's it's a it's a 568 - > it's a feast of his own. 569 - > So post-October, there'll be I'll after the wedding and 570 - > hunting and whatnot, there'll be more um uh deep thought about 571 - > where to go next. 572 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
573 - > Yeah, well that's a good way to to frame it and to think about 574 - > things and then and so so how how do you think about the um 575 - > the uh you know you know how how do we how do we make 576 - > architecture design? 577 - > We've talked about technically, but I don't know whether through 578 - > the process you've thought about how buildings, places really 579 - > feel authentic or or or grounded or in that local community, 580 - > whatever that may be. 581 - > Um we've talked about the fact that obviously we need more 582 - > diversity in the people in design positions or in the 583 - > client teams and and and that sensibility, but you know how 584 - > how do we how do we move the vernacular on, however you want 585 - > to talk about it, within places so that they feel of that place?
586 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, I think one thing I've been talking about it 587 - > and I talked about it in in office on a sort of high-level 588 - > policy sort of level about good places, how do you design um I 589 - > think it was how do you quantify good design or something like 590 - > that, or good places. 591 - > And I I fear a little bit um that there is a super, there's a 592 - > hyper financialization of real estate or and and and the built 593 - > environment. 594 - > And because quite a lot of people see that or believe that 595 - > um real estate is uh uh purely an asset to get returns on.
596 - > And that's for me that's a little bit of a problem because 597 - > if you directly if you want to make quite a lot of like return 598 - > on investment uh purely, I don't think places and buildings are 599 - > the best way, the quickest way to do that, yeah, first and 600 - > foremost. 601 - > Um so that's what I think one an issue. 602 - > We need to think about places, buildings as more than just the 603 - > financial assets. 604 - > Um so how to do that is still and I'm open to ideas on on it, 605 - > but I just think part of that conversation needs to be put to 606 - > the to the fore.
607 - > But the second thing I I do believe then is to um have the 608 - > space um to make people uh inhabit it as they wish. 609 - > And the the the an example of that, for example, is King's 610 - > Cross. 611 - > I always think about King's Cross at the Granary Square, um 612 - > the steps and the the water fountain area, and that is just 613 - > it's it's small enough to be because it's it's edge has edges 614 - > to it, but it's it's open enough for people to like, you know, I 615 - > just want to sit here and not buy coffee and just listen to my 616 - > music and do my thing.
617 - > And that I think that's what is kind of needed. 618 - > A space big enough for people to just like use willy-nilly. 619 - > Yeah, not structured, unstructured space. 620 - > People will put the structures around it.
621 - > If it's I think that's in terms of like success of successful 622 - > spaces, people put their structures within it, and you 623 - > just put the um the canvas. 624 - > Yeah. 625 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe that's a good place to end because maybe 626 - > we go and watch these dancers who are just who are just making 627 - > this space their own and occupying it in a really relaxed 628 - > way. 629 - > And um, yeah, no, it's been it's been really like great to have 630 - > this conversation with you, you know, and to to get a bit deeper 631 - > into your experiences and everything.
632 - > And it was wonderful. 633 - > Uh yeah, thank you for sharing that. 634 - > It's good, good, good time. 635 - > Thanks for having me.
636 - > SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Grow Places 637 - > podcast. 638 - > For more information, visit growplaces.com and follow us at 639 - > We Grow Places across all social channels. 640 - > See you next time.
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