GP 61: Finding the Gold Dust in a Place: with Stephanie Edwards of Urban Symbiotics

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places Podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth, and place. Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, Tom Larson. Stephanie, thanks very much for joining me today on the Grow Places Podcast. How are you?

Good, good. Thanks for having me. Nice to see you, Tom. Yeah, no problem.

And we're both just saying how we're skipping down the street this morning because we're in London and the sun's out and it feels like spring. Oh, it's so glorious. It's so glorious. You just you know why you live in London when uh days are like this.

Exactly, exactly. Um and so why don't you give a bit of an introduction to yourself and the work you do here? It'd be really helpful. Yeah, sure.

So um my name's Stephanie Edwards, I'm an architect and urban designer, and but I'm a co-founder of Urban Symbiotics, and so at Urban Symbiotics we really focus on ensuring that people are at the forefront of making meaningful change. Um, and so what that means for us is really about a bit of a split between people, data, and design. And so, what we mean by that is we focus on people, ensuring that we speak to everyone that's affected. We're really it's really important to us that um the work we do is demographically representative.

So we speak to everyone and all of uh different types of people from different lived experiences. Um, we then have great conversations with them, we find ways to really meet people where they are, and then in terms of data, we really try and turn lived experience into data, data that can be used for great change, whether that is for um you know planning applications, for community visions, for supplementary planning documents like policy, but essentially looking at a positive future change, and of course that translates into that design.

So, whether that's design strategy, uh design in reality, meanwhile use, we really um we really want to ensure that people um are able to um influence long-term change but also really feel it in the short term. So that's really important to us. So Urban Symbols is all about ensuring that people are at the forefront of um yeah, that meaningful future change. Yeah, fascinating, and um it's incredible work that you're doing, it's so um relevant, I think.

And the the immediate question I've got in my head is like how? Like, how are you doing that? Because everything you're saying like really resonates with me and with our business, and I'm sure with people who are interested enough to follow this podcast. But but the how to do this is like really fundamental.

So, how how how do you, Urban Symbiotics, go about this process? So, how so we very much start from the beginning. So um we will work in any location, so a lot of our work is focused in London, but we also work in like rural areas, we work in like market towns in Norfolk, in Bath, but also in Norfolk, so are you? Are you?

Yes, we had this conversation. Um and then um, yeah, also London, but also globally too. Um, but how we do it is so initially we'll always start with really trying to understand that context. So as architects, urban designers, we are always interested in the physical context, the site.

But at urban symbiotics, we also look at that additional layer of what's the social context. So we, you know, we have great um information here using like census data, um, using a lot of the data that's publicly accessible, and and we can actually start to design that to be very clear as to who is affected by this site, by this area, by this potential development. We understand what is that, what is what is the gender mix, uh, the range of ages, the cultures, the socioeconomics, and so then we create a really good baseline so we understand who, you know, who are the people that are here, and sometimes we may need to look at who may come into this development.

So there could be an existing demographic benchmark and also a projected demographic benchmark. We then use that to then design participatory structures. Um, so for example, if there's let's say a high South Asian population, you know, we'll try and work with whether it's some grassroots leaders in the area, um, we'll ensure that we try and break down some barriers to access, so whether that is uh physical barriers, whether that is social barriers. Um, we will then start to plan our engagement to meet those people.

We go to churches, we go to mosques, we go to stay-and-play groups, we work with you know, like youth groups. Um we'll also do a lot of street conversations to try and get actually the general public, meet people where they are, go to areas of high footfall. But we'll always ensure that we are always tallying who we're reaching, so we know we we're very clear about gaining that data and then matching the benchmark and then pivoting if we need to change. We also have a really diverse team.

We have over um we have a team that speak over 13 languages, cover most cultures, abilities, sexualities, and weirdly people tend to respond to people that look like them and feel like them. And so we start to create really you know we have really comfortable, we create comfortable environments for people to engage. Um, but we also do it through community comms. We'll set up microsites, targeted social media, um, and then we'll start to work with going to people in places that feel comfortable to them.

So it's not just about would you like to be uh are you interested in the public realm? It's like how do you use your public spaces? And we may also need to incentivise participation for those who have uh reduced um I guess facilities or amenities like time, they may be time poor. Um they may also need um just additional reimbursements to be actively engaged in the way that we need them to.

So, in a nutshell, it's uh there's a lot of different approaches, but everyone, every time it's bespoke to the project and the people. Yeah, yeah, fascinating. And um, and you've just outlined there, like as you say, so many different strands to what goes into people's feelings around places and the work that goes on there and change. And um, do you have a sense personally why why why you've cut come from architecture and urban design into doing this, which isn't it it it's sort of associated, but it's not directly related maybe to how you you trained.

Like what in you personally is motivating you to do this kind of work and this kind of participatory work? It's interesting because before we set up urban symbiotics about eight years ago, um I had worked as a urban designer, master planner uh for about 15 years before that, um, in different countries, different locations. We did a lot of work in um like just urban extensions in the UK, looking at garden cities. We looked at some work in the Middle East, we also um looked at some, you know, doing some regeneration strategies in South America, so completely, you know, globally, locally.

But I think for us, whilst as designers, it's really exciting to start to look at what does a new place look like, what does it feel like? There was always that sense of the end user missing. I remember actually there was a point in time that we were at this big engagement exercise about this large urban extension of over 5,000 new homes in this great new site, and we were grappling with, you know, how do you ensure you blur the boundaries and have integration between the new communities and existing communities?

And the insight that we gained from this last engagement exercise was incredible. Like very, very small interventions that we would need to make as designers that would have such a long and lasting impact for both communities, um, just for that wider value of a lot of capital essentially being you know placed into an area and how that could be equitable, um, ensuring there was better social cohesion across um different, I guess, social infrastructure um I guess uses. But what I realized after that is there was no room for change.

It was the consultation we were going in for planning in the next few weeks, and if only we had that insight at the beginning, and if only that could be incorporated, or they, you know, the users or the the people that came to that engagement exercise would have been involved throughout the process, it just would have been so much more fruitful, even from that sense of trust building, ownership, pride, but just a better, a better design and a better product. And I thought after that, it's like we just need to be doing better.

Um we yeah, we really do. Yeah, no, amazing. And um, and do you have do you have a sense of of why because so certain like a lot of designers I think are very minded in the way that you're minded, but but but others aren't necessarily. It's more like about okay, well, what does this design mean for us as a practice, or what does it mean for our clients' brief, or you know, you're really sort of democratising that process.

You're at you're very outward looking in the way that you're you're attributing value to the different aspects of design that aren't necessarily all about the kind of aesthetic purity of the design or other things, they're about, as you say, how does it function, how does it work for the people? And um it's quite selfless in that respect, isn't it? It's like you're sort of opening up your design process to other people. Um what do you send how how how do you sort of contextualise that?

What why on a personal level, why is why do you do that? Is it like something you've always done as a person? Is it is it a trait in you personally, do you think, or do you not really think about things in that way? Oh, that's such a good point.

Um such a good point. I think it's really interesting actually because um the way that we're trained, I was trained as an architect, I am an architect. Um I trained a lot as well. It's yeah, so I mean it's a great process.

I mean it's a really long process, and it's a great process, and and it is a lot about you know, form and function and how you really um enhance and provide like such great design quality. Um quality for you know, we'll talk about uh for fe for the for future uses and and legacy. But actually, I think sometimes it's really important not to forget that we're designing for other people. I'm not sure if it, you know, it's always within the training as to your designing.

Exactly. It sounds obvious when you say it, but it really isn't the case. At all. You know, a lot of the time architects talk to other architects, and and we actually um we thrive from that, you know.

If another architect says your work is good, it it's it's great. But actually, if someone lives in your building or within your centre, these are the people that we need to be impressing. And so, so for me, actually, it's not about reducing the design quality, it's about sharing that, and it's about translating that, and it's about improving it. And I think that's probably where the name like urban symbiotics came from.

It's how you know symbiosis is about these mutual beneficial relationships, and why can't you have fantastic, great design, you know, together with communities that use it and residents and people like us, you know, like we are also community members or individuals that will use spaces. Yeah, we are people, yeah. And I think sometimes we forget that, like we are part of the people that we are creating like new worlds for. And so for me, it's just really enriching, and I find it really interesting actually.

Um there's so much that I learn through having conversations that then we turn into data that you know we then showcases innovation, but it is learning, it's about expanding just uh our own understanding and actually our contextual brief. So for us it's it's really adding, it's adding to that as opposed to taking away. And I think sometimes that's where um community engagement and participatory design sometimes falls down because I think people feel like they lose control, um, they lose that sense of power and autonomy.

But actually, it's like if we can look at collaboration that can work to our strengths, um, we we think that's important. Yeah, yeah, no, I I love it. I love the whole notion of urban symbiotics, and um I think the way you described it is very aligned with our values, like we talk about place growth, and grow places, and and that notion is it is partly physical about change and growth, and it's partly economic, obviously. But it's actually for us is much more about that kind of sense of evolution of of a place, and the notion of something growing is something that evolves naturally and that changes and and adapts, as opposed to we challenge kind of place making as a notion which is sort of often seen as you come in and you make a place and you kind of do something new and it kind of maybe signals that maybe there wasn't anything there before, or maybe anything of value.

Now, some of that's conscious, some of that's subconscious, and it's and there's a lot of amazing energy and work that goes into the kind of place-making space. But that was our kind of positive challenge on that, and I see how you're describing urban semantics as a similar sort of reframing of some of those ideas and processes within development, community um neighbourhoods. Yeah, and I just love that word that you use, like um evolving, evolution, growth, because I think it's actually it's the evolution and the growth that is the sweet spot.

I think it's that moment where people feel part of change that allows a really great output. There's something about providing something that is beautiful and outstanding that hasn't responded to anyone or anything, or maybe it has, but they don't know about it. And it's almost it's almost uh as if they're missing a trick. It's about people feeling part of bringing that energy, bringing vibrancy.

We like places that um are filled with people who are living life, who are able to be fully self-expressive, um, where you feel that real um almost like this genus loque of a place. You know, like what does what's a place made of? It's about art in some spaces, it's about different types of cultures, it's like how does that map into different spaces? But how can you allow that to evolve?

Um, we're doing some great work actually with Camden Council at the moment of helping them create an evidence base for a vision for Camden Town. And Camden Town is such a uh unique and eclectic place. How do you ensure that that can continue to evolve in that way without being overly commercialised or overly sanitized? So, how can you work from like planning policy but with communities to almost meet in the middle to create something that's both sustainable but also real, if I can use that term?

Yes, yeah, totally. Yeah, and I think Yeah, and I think that that that r realness, authenticity, however you want to call it, is um is something that is totally unique to each place. And um like we try to look very, very hyper-local at any one place. We try to draw a project boundary, which is obviously the boundary of the project that you're looking at, and then there's a sort of an impact or like a neighbourhood boundary which is greater than that.

But um it's like how can you kind of draw your inspiration from what's happening there, from both physically, um culturally, um, in all the ways that you just described. And and if you could do that in a way it actually sort of enhances I think the the sense of place um that people feel, not just people who already call that place home or a place of work or a place to visit, but people who may be coming in uh transiently or or in the future, as you you mentioned, I think at the start of this conversation, you know, neighbourhoods do change, development um brings in people, you know, new people to neighbourhoods, and that's all all part of uh uh the symbiosis of that place.

And so I think that I think maybe that's be interesting to hear your thoughts from an international perspective. But I feel like that feels like quite a sort of sophisticated like London approach to doing things is to like really look really hyper-locally and sort of think about the place. And there's a lot of value in in our culture here around that authenticity of realism of places. I don't know how you found working in different places around the world.

Do you see those those sort of um those same sentiments come up, those same sort of feelings of what makes a place valuable to the local people, what makes a place valuable to investors, to to local governments is consistent, or have you found different things working across the world? I think it actually um it is about being hyper-local in a way that it becomes quite specific to that place. Because as we know, that is that is where you find some of the like the gold dust. You know, it's not just the people, but it's also like the memory and the nostalgia.

We're doing uh we're working on this master plan in in Lebanon and it was in the mountains, but it was it was known for a place that people would go to take a break. It was also known for like a religious pilgrimage. Um but we were working with a developer in that area that wanted to um start to sensitively look at a master plan for growth in the area, but it made sense to start to look at what does an intergenerational community look like here. Um in Lebanon at that time, they're really looking at this growing um elderly population, but they're very much about how do we look after our elderly in a way that it that naturally suits us, and so you have this mountain landscape, you have the health benefits of this area being within this lush green environment.

You had a place that people are used to traveling to, and so it's how do you start to create homes that could be used by uh the elderly, but there could also be um start to create communities of intergenerations that people would naturally come to. So it's almost looking at this kind of external place of care, and so actually that's that's what the basis of the development ended up being. We used like the data from the lived experience of how it was used, how people saw it and why they would come to the area, and then we just developed upon that um in a bit more detail to create something that expanded on what was there, but also started to create a place that that was quite new and interesting and really valuable to um yeah, to the people that lived there and who started to call it um call it home.

Yeah, no, that's fascinating. And um I was gonna come back to the data point, and maybe that's a good time to do it, because I think the way you described it at the top, you know, you've got people plus data plus design is kind of your sort of model, and and I think the data point is is so so fascinating. Um something that I don't think we do necessarily enough in the industry is to really look deeply at the data behind the places as well as um as well as a kind of intuitive sense about what goes on in a place or or what is a relevant um project decision actually looking at data and that that data not just being the kind of census data and other things, demographics, which is all super important, but being that kind of sentiment data, that that human insight that comes through talking to people and um uh yeah, meeting people where they are is the language that you use.

So, how do you think about the the kind of whether it's structured and unstructured or kind of qualitative data and quantitative data? I don't know how you describe that, but how how do you see that symbiosis between the set sources of data? Yeah, so I guess what we will do, um we'll do, you know, for example, when we run our workshops or have our street conversations, um, we'll always collect that, you know, demographic data. But alongside that, we'll have open comments.

We always say that um conversations unveil the unique, not specific defined questions always. So, but there is a balance, you know. Sometimes you really need to understand um some very clear output, so you have that kind of quantitative response, but the qualitative is really important for us too. So if I focus on the qualitative data, it's about you know what what are the priorities for you as a person living in this space, using this area or this high street.

And so we use this data, so we may usually get at least over a thousand um different conversations, usually ends up with over five thousand, six thousand insights. We then map every single insight and we theme them, and we'll theme them in terms of sentiment, we'll theme them in terms of topic, we'll theme them in terms of intervention. So it's about starting to look at these very clear themes and boxes essentially, to then start to unpack well what does that look like? What are the relationships between, you know, maybe safety and belonging, or what the difference between what social infrastructure is formally compared to informally?

It allows us, particularly if we're looking at large-scale regeneration or um community visions, to start to understand questions as to is there enough social infrastructure here? Yes, because the social infrastructure here is the charity shop. It is, you know, it is the person who's in the tech shop who's helping fill out forms and and you know, children after school. And it's like, how do you ensure those different types of uses can come back into an area alongside maybe some of the more formal social infrastructure pieces, such as community.

Centres and others, but it starts to unveil the aspects that um you know the the areas that you don't know, you don't know essentially. So that data then allows us to have very clear reporting, so we can then produce quite a clear and detailed report to our clients as to this is a snapshot of the people um that are affected by it in this area, and this is your evidence base, and that helps not only with plan making, with priorities, it helps us to look at okay, what what should the planning team deal with compared to the public health team?

And it has also helped us to get funding, like whether that's leveling up funding, community funding, GLA funding, so you then have this great evidence base that is you know essentially looks like conversation and post-its notes, but actually leads to a lot of yeah, quite hard data. Awesome. And what would be if I if I caught you at a frustrated moment, or if I if you were to open up, what are the things that really like bug you about the way that we go about projects or the processes, or where you're like, God, we could do so much better.

You kind of touched on some of it, but like stuff that you're really like, God, we really should be able to just do better at this. I think it's this idea of um I think community engagement feeling futile or um feeling as a as if it's a nice to have, something fluffy. I think that really bothers me because they are essentially the end user, they are the client, you know, the client that that we're providing for. And I think sometimes people are confused as to participatory workshops and processes being about people designing.

It's not necessarily saying please design us this new building or this new shopping centre, it's just about understanding their experience so that it can be used within a design process. And I think what really bugs me as well is that, yeah, that idea of like, well, what will they know? They will know they will just ask for a swimming pool. You know, this is it, a golden swimming pool.

And it's just like, okay, probably not. Actually, a lot of people are more concerned with very basic things such like safety, cleanliness, maintenance. And if they did ask for a swimming pool, you are also okay to say, This is not within the realms, or we don't have a budget for this, because at the end of the day, people just want transparency, they want to be communicated with. It's just about building those relationships and trust.

And so I think that is my biggest bug there. I think it's just this yeah, it's this idea that it's unnecessary. I think also just uh I know, sorry, I'm on my I'm on my soapbox now. I tried to put you there, so it's good.

But I think you know, when you look at um like this this part, it's just it's really serious. You know, when you look at what happened with the Grenfell Tower tragedy, the reason is because people were not listened to. You know, actually, like people were not considered, they were not listened to, they were disregarded, they were neglected. And when you look at the inquiry that was uh published, the only um group that came up as a celebrated group with a community for their resilience, for uh for their ability to look after the victims, to provide for them and to respond.

And so when you see that, you realise that actually involving the community and residents and people affected is so beyond critical. It is it's essential, and it is between life and death in that situation. But I think it should be a lesson to us. Like I don't think that people's lives should be should have been lost in vain, and I think we should not be repeating that at all.

And I think as a as an industry we really need to be um taking that really seriously, you know, it's it's it's critical. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And so so it if we're if you're working on a project then how do you how do you communicate some of the value and what you're doing to your clients then and to the partners maybe within the project team? I'm sure obviously certain clients that would be pushing on an open door, others you may be having to kind of educate along the way.

How how do you how do you explain everything you've just kind of contextualized there to to your clients and partners? Well, I guess it interestingly, um our clients are people that value what we do. So um they're very much ready to go on that journey, so we are they are open to it, they are learning, we are learning, and we're improving as we go. But if you are not minded to do that, they will not hire us, actually.

It's just I think we're not really in that position where we have to convince um people to align with our values. They employ us because they align with our values. Yeah. So maybe we're missing a trick here.

We need to probably do a bit more, you know, like uh work in terms of um being in spaces that we can start to um develop that trust and capacity build professionally. But at the moment, I think from because our offer is quite clear, we tend to get people that are aligned with that. Yeah, and you mentioned Camden Council there and a couple of other examples, but yeah, who who are your clients generally then? Is it mainly local authorities or is it so it is mainly local authorities?

So we're working yet with Camden Council, working with the Houndslow Council, working with Be First, um which is the independent um you know development arm of Barking and Dagenham. We worked with Croydon Council, um Historic England, um, so yeah, a lot of different um local authorities, but we're also working in uh with Hub, Hub Residential, so they're really trying to look at ensuring that they are developing uh meaningful change within their developments. So uh actually we're sitting in one of their developments uh sites at the moment, and yeah, so we're working with um also um Link City on the Tustin Estate in South London.

So yeah, we are working with some developers that also uh want to ensure that people are like you know at the heart of what they're doing, and yeah, we're very much open to ensuring that as much of the built environment can be more focused in this way. So it's a bit of a mix. Yeah, some charities, like third sector as well. Yeah, great.

And then you mentioned earlier on about time horizons and essentially like how you uh generate like meaningful conversations and value at all stages of that process from the now through to the long term. And um so how how would how would say your developer or private sector clients versus say your local authority clients assess that approach to value? Do you do you tailor that in different ways or or are or is everyone kind of buying into both the short, medium and long term?

Yeah, so sometimes we're brought in at different stages. So we do we do quite a lot of work with visioning and helping to provide like evidence base and uh I guess information for design briefs, which is the sweet spot. I think that's great if we can be involved right at the beginning, it then does help throughout the process. Um we're also brought into the planning application stages so that we can start to um socialise and work with the community resident stakeholders on um you know new development sites, but also you know, with our work with the Tussin Estate, also delivering on social value.

Um we are working um with community or residents on the Tustin Estate during this long-term renewal to ensure that they are kept up to date with the process, they're able to shape the new phases of development at each point and actually start to create spaces that they can come together and still be socially cohesive whilst you know they're essentially living on a development site. Um, we also work on a quality's health impact assessments. That's a really good way of if we're looking at benchmarking at the beginning and we're engaging, we're able to start to not only shape um you know the design and the progress of that, but also to mitigate any um impact, like negative impacts and really celebrate those positive impacts.

Um, and then towards the end, so where we look on um long, larger or long, I guess, long-term projects, such as like visioning projects, like long, like long-term regeneration projects. We're looking at also meanwhile use strategies. What does that mean when you know we're asking you about change and it's it may not start for five years? How can we you know we've we've set up a bit of a community hub space in Dagenham and Dagenham Heathway?

We also piloted some events, you know, they have no nighttime economy at all. So we started with some twilight economy events. Like, what does that look like? Let's see if people can stay a bit longer as opposed to coming into a space um later on when we know that there is there is no pull for nighttime um use, but you you we know that we can extend their use for maybe four till six with like food and beverage offer, entertainment offer, and so how you can maintain that vibrancy during long-term change.

So, depending on the project, some of them we've worked from the beginning, um from the design brief stage through to design strategy to meanwhile uses um and some in between. So, yeah, it really just depends, and we could be flexible in that too. Yeah, that's great, great. And um, and through that process, how do you kind of um maintain those relationships that you'll you and other people, I'm sure, are working really, really hard to build that trust, to build those relationships, which is not easy.

Yeah um, and the the nature of projects, whether it's like the fact that, as you say, we do you go and get a planning permission and there's a lot of energy into that, and then as a local person, maybe you feel like nothing happens for a year or two, even though behind the scenes maybe there's some design work going on or whatever, and then there's the construction, and then there's the operation of these uh new bits of city. Um yeah, how how do you how do you go about that? Because I always find like, you know, uh part of it is is obviously building those relationships, but then actually how do you maintain them when maybe I don't know your scope of services might be paused or like you know, or maybe you're you're working in an environment where your brief was only to do one of those stages.

And I I maybe struggle with that a little bit for how how we work, because you you don't want to feel disingenuous to people like building these relationships and then sort of maybe not being as present for another six months or a year than you have been for the preceding six months or year. And it's a very hard thing to to do because we're none of us, as much as we we like to uh emphasize or feel associated with local communities, we're not actually from those communities, are we?

We're kind of visitors, we're sort of coming in as with a defined brief and set of incentives and objectives, and we're trying to um listen, learn and associate with those communities, but we're fundamentally not part of that community, and how do you sort of navigate all of that? Yeah, that's really hard actually. It is, isn't it? Yeah.

Because you can, you know, some of the places I've worked in, I was like, wow, I have more of an affinity here than I do in the place I live. Um and so yeah, that is something we try to be quite intentional about, but it is hard, it is really hard. Um, you manage to have really great relationships, particularly those where you're in like workshop settings, you're really trying to shape something together. It's you know, sometimes an extended period of time of like over a year, 18 months, two years, or even a three-month intensive.

Um, but what we try to do is try and leave um that legacy so that's more less about us and more about other people connecting with you know the people around them who they may not have had like ties with. So, for example, in um we did a regeneration framework in Purley, so we created a regeneration framework um for the you know the regeneration team, but we created a community handbook for the community so that they could see all of the different projects they could apply for themselves and start to help, you know, um work on and come together with.

We also um curated um this panel called the Pearlie panel, which is a representative community panel and that we helped to set up in terms of the governance and we set up a website for them, help them to get funding, and so now they're continuing, you know, they're working with the local bids, you can also help with funding and management, and it just helps to ensure that there's a structure there for people to still come together and to drive change, but without us. Um, and we're also trying to do the same thing um in Dagenham, but it is hard because you don't always know how long you'll be in a place.

Yeah, so whilst we try and manage expectations, um, we try to be as clear as possible. But um, yeah, if we're able, we we try and produce these handbooks which are quite useful, websites, social media, and just communicate. You know, we just try to communicate as much as possible, but it is tough, it is tough, yeah. No, but that's really good, really good um insights there into that.

Because as you say, I think um m most of it is just really being upfront with people, I think. And um and um and as you say, sort of that fundamental mindset that you're a visitor into that community, and it and your role isn't necessarily to come in and and make that place or to do anything, it's actually to kind of observe and to see what's already happening there and see what you can maybe um assist with, or like um we all sort of have this mantra in our briefs, which is like don't fuck this place up.

That's actually top line of our briefs. Okay, this is good. It's a good place to start. Yeah, but it it sounds like it's it's it sounds silly to say it, but actually when you really think deeply about that, what that actually means, like it's a very different mindset to how a lot of kind of developers and design teams come in with a lot of very well-minded optimism and intention, and you know, but actually if you start from the principle of okay, well, like, you know, this is a functioning place and it's community and society here, and like how can we kind of help evolve that as opposed to coming in and making it, it's quite a different approach.

Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I'm quite taken with that. So that is the top line of all of our briefs now is don't fuck this place up. I'll remember it as well.

You need to remember that midway through the process. Like, are we on track? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Uh yeah, exactly. And um and and with all these things, I'm sure one person would say we have and one person say we haven't, and that's the like joy of working in communities, isn't it? There's never one uh there's never one consensus view, and and that's like part of the complexity, part of the joy and the kind of energy of working in communities is that every person has their own perspective, and even different kind of um elements within the community will all have their own perspectives as well.

And I think as a regeneration company or consultant, like all you can really do is try to kind of be up front with people and be honest with people and try to, as you say, build some element of trust, but also recognise that there are going to be points of differences, and that's okay. Like that's you're not necessarily gonna get over those, but to do it in a way that is upfront with people and and um that's the only way to do it, I think, really. Yeah, yeah. Clear and honest, actually, and tr transparent.

It's not that you know, you don't have to have the answers to everything, but yeah, communication's really important. Stephanie, thanks very much for your time today on the Grow Places podcast. It's been fascinating talking to you and really love the whole idea of urban symbiotics and everything that you're doing and sharing. It's really aligned with how we think, so appreciate all your time.

Oh, the same. Thanks for inviting me along. No worries. Yeah, really enjoyed the conversation.

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