Grow Places · 2026-03-31 · 42 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
60 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Saxogade represents a distinctive model combining social enterprise with retail commerce in Copenhagen's Vesterbro district. Run by Seglementel, a century-old NGO, the initiative operates nine shops including Cafe Sonia (one of Copenhagen's first cafes) where individuals facing barriers - illness, long-term unemployment, social challenges - gain meaningful work experience. The operational philosophy centers on breaking tasks into subtasks so participants feel they create real value for actual customers, not artificial make-work. Christian emphasizes this isn't charity: shops compete commercially against other Copenhagen retailers while maintaining 175 company partnerships to place graduates into permanent employment. Funding comes from three sources: Copenhagen municipality job-center payments for participants, retail sales revenue, and ~120 grants. The model prioritizes agency and dignity - participants move from being perpetually helped to contributing members who deliver value. Event creation involves volunteers with diverse backgrounds designing activities, intentionally building smaller-scale participation options so those with health constraints can still belong meaningfully. Søndergaard claims Saxogade is the world's only "socio-economic street," having evolved over 40 years since the 1980s oil crisis when neighborhood shops closed and youth unemployment soared. This appeals to B2B operators in social enterprise, municipal partnerships, retail regeneration, or workforce development seeking replicable models balancing commercial viability with genuine inclusion.
Saxogade is a socio-economic street in Copenhagen's Vesterbro neighborhood run by the NGO Seglementel. It operates nine shops, including Cafe Sonia, where around 100 people weekly participate in job training programs. Tasks are deliberately designed with subtasks so participants with health challenges or attendance limits can contribute real value to actual customers while receiving mentorship and support.
Participants work on real tasks in Saxogade's shops, receive support from personal mentors on obstacles in their lives (housing, health, etc.), and after completing internships, are placed into permanent jobs through company consultancies working with 175 employer partners.
Saxogade uses a three-part funding model: Copenhagen municipality payments for job-center referrals, revenue from commercial retail sales in the shops, and approximately 120 different grants. This diversification prevents collapse if one revenue stream fails.
According to Christian Søndergaard, Saxogade is the world's only socio-economic street, having evolved over 40 years since the 1980s. No similar model combining commercial retail with integrated job training and community participation for marginalized populations has been found globally.
The model emphasizes real tasks for real customers, community-led event design involving volunteers from diverse backgrounds, and deliberately building smaller participation options (like a 30-minute shift) so people of any capacity can deliver measurable value and go home proud.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode contains solid operational insights about running a social enterprise - the stepping stone method, balancing social and commercial goals, task decomposition for diverse abilities, and the three-legged revenue model (contracts, retail sales, grants). However, much of the content is repetitive exposition of the same core concepts, and there's limited novel insight beyond 'we serve marginalized people well by giving them agency and tailored tasks.' The conversational structure dilutes insight density with extended personal anecdotes and philosophical reflection rather than concrete, actionable frameworks.
So one task can be a lot of sub-tasks, so so that the the individual uh person who is in the internship can actually feel that they are creating a value in the cafe.
We have a three-legged uh share you know uh that that that's our economy and that's also really strong because uh um then you know we can't as a if if if if a shop closes down or something we don't need the commercial uh sales there and we can we can uh kind of figure it out right because we have other things to to fall on for on
The core insight - that social enterprises can become financially viable by combining social missions with real commercial operations - is solid but not novel. The stepping stone method exists and has been evaluated. What is somewhat original is the explicit framing of refusing pity-driven customers and competing on equal commercial footing, plus the deliberate volunteer model where contribution matters more than resource extraction. However, the overall framework maps closely to existing social enterprise thinking (mission-driven hiring, mentorship, gradual workforce integration).
we are the only socioeconomic street in the world
It's not for everyone to be a part of an event with a lot of people. So, how can we have a room or an activity for for the few so they can enjoy it as well?
Christian Søndergaard is the head of a 40-year-old operational social enterprise running a thriving, multi-shop street with proven outcomes (175 company partnerships, stepping stone method evaluated and proven to work). He is a practitioner at scale managing complex operations and workforce dynamics, not a theorist or occasional consultant. However, his seniority is regional (Copenhagen-based NGO) rather than global, and he was only 2 years into the role at interview time, limiting his depth of long-term institutional knowledge. His firsthand operational experience is genuine but narrower than a multi-decade founder.
I'm the head of Saxogel, which is run by an NGO called Seglementel. Sedlementel has been doing work at uh in the city of Copenhagen for more than 100 years
I've been here in in the in Saxugel and in Settlemental for two years
The episode includes some concrete details: 100 people per week, 9 shops, 175 company partners, 40-year history, 8-step method (though steps aren't detailed), specific shop names (Cafe Sonia), one detailed case study (homeless man with alcohol problem → apartment → external job). However, there is a striking absence of financial data, specific metrics on placement rates, cost-per-placement, shop revenues, or rent comparisons. Christian acknowledges not having 'any data behind me' on economic competitiveness and refuses to specify why children's shop succeeds, saying only 'maybe even a bit more' in revenue. Numbers that matter - placement success rates, retention rates, program costs - are absent.
Every week we have around 100 people uh going through the nine shops that we have in Saxwell
we have 175 companies who which we are collaborating with
The host asks reasonable opening questions and follows the narrative, but rarely pushes back, challenges claims, or drills into specifics. When Christian says they're 'the only socioeconomic street in the world,' the host accepts it without probing (have you surveyed globally? what about similar models elsewhere?). When Christian avoids the children's shop economics question with vague language ('maybe even a bit more'), the host doesn't re-ask. There's no productive disagreement, no 'but wouldn't X undermine your argument?' The interview is warm and validating but lacks the skepticism and follow-up rigor that would extract harder evidence or tighter reasoning.
Oh really? So we're actually saying that um that we are the only socioeconomic street in the world.
And then you see people going there and then you maybe understand it in in a while. But I think if you compare that to another children's shop, then I think it's it's um it's actually uh the same and maybe even a bit more in in terms of how good the economy is.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this episode of the Grow Places Podcast, Tom Larsson travels to Copenhagen to meet Christian Søndergaard, Head of Saxogade, what may be the world's only socio-economic street. For over 40 years, the nine-shop operation run by an NGO has combined commercial vitality with meaningful work opportunities for people facing significant barriers to employment, from long-term illness to homelessness. Christian explains how the street functions as a real business whilst providing structured pathways back into work for around 100 people each week. Tasks are carefully broken down so that individuals can contribute genuine value rather than perform token activities. The model is deliberately not about volunteering as a resource, it is about agency, about being part of something, about creating value for others when you have spent years needing help yourself. The result is a thriving Copenhagen street that competes commercially whilst creating space for everyone. The conversation explores the stepping stone method, the three-way funding model that sustains the work, and why quality matters more than pity.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Hello and welcome to the Grow Places Podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth, and place. Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, Tom Larson. Christian, thank you very much for joining me today. Of course.
I'm really grateful we managed to squeeze this in. We're sat in Copenhagen. We met a couple of days ago, and I learned about what you're doing here and just felt compelled to have this conversation to be able to share it with more people. So thank you.
I'm glad that you are interested in our project. So happy to be here. Great. And then so why don't you give an introduction to yourself and the project here?
Yeah. Yeah, so my name is Christian and I'm the head of Saxogel, which is run by an NGO called Seglementel. Sedlementel has been doing work at uh in the city of Copenhagen for more than 100 years, and um more especially here in Westerpol, in the neighborhood that we are in right now. Um Sedlementel has always been about how can we um create a social change, how can we do more for people who has less.
Uh and and how can we help them to help themselves really? How can we give them agency to create a better life and also create uh a future for themselves? So that's that has been our uh our drive all the way. And um now here in Saxegel, where we sit now, we have been working since uh 1986 doing a socio-economic street uh where the main uh driver is to uh create uh great um internships, great job training programs for people who have been outside the job market for a very long time or never been there due to illness, social challenges or other issues in their lives.
So we create an opportunity for them to come back into the society, work society, you can say, and also be back in the uh working community that um a lot of us enjoy to be part of, but they have never been or never really felt uh the right way in a workplace. So that's really what we do. And every week we have around 100 people uh going through the nine shops that we have in Saxwell and doing a lot of different stuff. Um we have a cafe, one of the first in Coke Maiden called Cafesonia, and uh there people are serving coffee, doing the dishes, uh making the food ready for our customers, and uh are really working as colleagues.
But you know, we have some um we we are try to uh uh you know, we we are planning the work so they are actually able to do the tasks. So one task can be a lot of sub-tasks, so so that the the individual uh person who is in the internship can actually feel that they are creating a value in the cafe. So they are actually doing real tasks, it's not something that we come up with because they have to do something, it's actually something they do because our customers need uh food on the table, right?
Uh so one task that could be uh something that I could do for 10 minutes could be something that the three interns can do for for half an hour or something like that because they have some uh illnesses that we need to be aware of, or they need to have a break uh every 15 minutes or something like that. So that's really really just one example of how we can do a lot of different uh tasks for our job training program. Um and and then we also very we are socioeconomic, so we have the social part, which is the the internship and the hundred uh great people coming here every week.
And then we also uh real shops, so we are uh commercial uh enterprise, and we we need to make sure that we have customers, we need to make sure that we have uh revenue, and we also need to make sure that we are attractive offer for the customers here in Vestabo. Uh so uh every shop is also about how can we invite people in and how can they uh buy our stuff and uh and and do that. So um so that's that's another thing, and and the third thing we we really care about here is trick creating a community.
And uh you talk a lot about community these days and how can we be for for everyone, but we really mean then when we say that we are for everyone, and and by that it's also very focused on no matter what kind of social background you have or you come from, you there can be something for you here in Saxo Girl and in settlement as a whole. But um but when you talk about Saxugel here, it's really about how can we make sure that the different shops and the different events we do is for everyone, and how can we make sure that when we do an event, we have uh activities at that single event that could be for everyone.
So it's not for everyone to be a part of an event with a lot of people. So, how can we have a room or an activity for for the few so they can enjoy it as well? That's something that we we work with, and how can we be even better at that is is also something we talk about all the all the time at the moment. Um but it's also very much in the creation of the events.
So we're really caring about that it's not me and my colleagues developing the events, it should be the volunteers, and it should also be the volunteers with different social background, uh, because we believe that that would create um more diverse events, but also events that couldn't come up if I just did it myself. New ideas, new ways to participate in an event. So, so and and the whole creation process of an event is actually just as important as the end product. Because we we we believe that the creation process you do in a community with other volunteers is very um rewarding in a personal way because the creation of something together with others is really um that also something I have learned myself.
Is is is really given and is really valuable for for yourself. And then when you see the outcome and you see guests to the event also enjoying it, it's just everything just goes up uh on a higher note, right? So so it's um it's really important, but also uh and and and and a thing that's that's that's important as well is is also about the agency that's a person who has been uh maybe um needed help all his or hers life, now can be someone that can do something for others and not should be the one individual that always uh has to be cared about.
So that the fact that you can as a person deliver value to others and not be the one who always needs it is is super important. And we also make sure that an event, just as our task in the shops, can be very a lot of subtasks. And maybe you also uh maybe you also you're only able to attend half an hour at the event and you are the one saying hello to people when they come in uh at the door, then that's a task in itself, and that could be enough. And the fact that you have been part of that is is just something that you can go home and be proud of and feel that you are part of creating that atmosphere at that event, and that would be enough.
So you don't have to be there for five hours if it's a five-five-hour event. You can be part of it in a very small way, and that's just as good as say if you were a volunteer who were doing hundred hours a year in the in Saxonville. So, and it's it's really not easy to do that because we need to be um it's actually super difficult to to to find a lot of subtasks in in the bigger tasks, and it's difficult to coordinate because it can be a lot of different people uh coming to an event, and people can also be attending as volunteers at different times at the same event.
So it it's it's not it's not it's not easier to do events in this way, and we we actually don't necessarily see our volunteers as resources as you see it as many other places. I come myself from the festival background that and and in that area you see really volunteers as a resource because that's the only way you can get a beer or cleaning the toilets. But here it's more about being part of something and being part of uh doing something for others, and not necessarily that you are making it easier for us as the event host to do the event.
Yeah. So that's um that's that's quite important, actually, for us. That it's more about the creation of the event and being part of it as a volunteer that's important, and not not necessarily that they uh solve a task for us. Yeah.
No, no, it's absolutely incredible. And um thank you very much for sharing that. And um is this is this is this unique? Are there lots of examples of things like this?
Or actually we are we are we haven't uh met it anywhere in the world. Oh really? So we're actually saying that um that we are the only socioeconomic street in the world. Uh so of course that's also important to say uh say here.
Um we haven't uh heard about it or or someone haven't uh so so we uh we believe that we are the only socioeconomic street in the world, and um that that's something that we are really proud of. It's not something that we did overnight. We have been here for 40 years. Uh so it's it's really something that has been built off uh and also changed uh during the 40 years.
But but as far as we know, we are the only one in the world, uh, and that's really something to be proud of. Yeah, incredible, incredible. Um And what would you say is the unique thing experientially about the place? So you've described the model in and the relationship between people.
But it yeah, is there is there any kind of one thing that comes to mind you're like, God, that really exemplifies this place? I I think it is that you really see in a very um modern place of Cookmade. Vestabo is a very uh developed place and also uh changed a lot during the last uh uh 40 to 30 years. Uh and a lot of people are actually looking like uh similar to each other, right?
But here at Saksogell you see that there are still uh difference in people at Vestabo and in Cook Maiden. So you you feel that there are um others than yourselves in Coke Maiden. So there is kind of a diversity in the street that um that I think you can feel right away when you're here visiting the shops or the cafe. Uh so that's one thing.
Um we're also trying to just as a very basic thing. We we're trying to make sure that people understand that we are one collective street, that all the shops uh share the same values and uh working for the same mission. Uh so that's also quite important. So we also try to look uh quite similar, you know.
We want to be sure that people understand that this is also part of Settlement's social work. Um so that's also a basic thing. Uh but I really think it's more about that that you feel that we are uh we are really a community for everyone, and you feel that there are a lot of different uh people, which also makes it very rich. Uh, because you will we have a lot of stories from a lot of people who have been through a lot of stuff, uh some of it really bad stuff, but also a lot of great stories about a great life, and and that that is uh stories that live within every shop, and also in the events we do in the street.
So so I think that's very nice. And also uh I live myself in Nerbu uh and uh yeah, of course, uh live and have my life in Code Mang. And and we are quite similar in Code Mang. Uh, and uh sometimes it's uh easier to look away from stuff that you don't want to see, uh if it's people who are social challenges or what else it could be.
But but it and and here you really just uh reopen it to everyone. And it's also like it's everyday life, it's not something special, it's just people are here because they live in the city. And uh we don't hide them or they don't hide themselves. They are part of their uh real life at Vestable, and and that's really something that I hear from others coming here that they they see that uh right away, and it's I think they it's really also rich to them to to see that uh hey uh this is uh just the copeness, and I'm not only the one going to all the popular events and stuff like that.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, amazing, yeah. And um it's just aside from everything that you said, it's also just a great street. It's just you could walk down this and it is a thriving, brilliant street, it's diverse, there's lots of different things going on, and yeah, yeah.
And that's testament as well, isn't it? That you you don't it it stands on its own as a good street. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Aside from everything else great that you're doing with the place.
And that must be good for the people who are in the community. Yeah, and it's it's very important for us that we are uh a street uh and that we kind of compete, you could say, with the other street in Copenhagen on the same level. So the quality in our shops and the quality in our events and the quality in the community we create here is as good as all the others, and I would say better in in many cases also because we have a live a really diverse uh group of people here. But but it's very important that you don't choose us because you feel pity for these people, because that's not the case.
We we really need them to be here because they enjoy our coffee in Cafe Sonia or that they enjoy coming here and uh buying a bike. So so it's it's it's it's quite important that we kind of compete on the same levels as all the other shops in the city, but also compete on their uh different events you can see in Copenhagen. Um because they should not come here because they want to be feel pity about the people here, because they don't need that. Uh they need to be feel that they are part of their daily work here uh the same way as as all of the other of us.
Yeah. So that yeah, that's very important. Yeah. And what would uh are there any individual stories that you can tell from the people who you've helped who've come in and found that maybe that sense of purpose or direction and what it's done for them?
Yeah, so I'm thinking about I think I actually have two cases. Um one is uh um we had uh uh an older guy. Uh he was uh when he started here he was actually homeless. And uh he he had a job many years ago uh at a library and uh and then his life took some turns and uh he also had a um he was uh had an alcohol uh uh problem and uh really his life wasn't on track and actually a lot uh away of the track.
Um he started here and uh we developed uh a great task for him that he could do when he was here in the in one of our shops in Saxoville. And uh he really uh he he grew up in that task and he really became uh proud of being part of something. He was really great of being part of a place where he could deliver value to both the store but also uh people who were reading his stuff. He was he was writing uh stuff for Instagram.
And uh at the same time as he was having a valuable uh internship where he actually delivered value to someone, he he uh he were also getting help from our mentors. Um every intern in Saxcill has a mentor. The mentor was helping him finding a way in his uh life in terms of trying to get uh an apartment. Um, and uh, you know, that's also what we do.
It's it's like if uh we really look around the individual person and say, how can we make sure that there isn't any large obstacles in the private life outside of the working life that makes that that actually is the a barrier that they can't uh join or work. So that's also something that we are looking into for every individual who's here. And that succeeded. So he got an apartment that was super proud about that, coming here and uh chairing with everyone in the store and was like, I got an apartment, and uh and next up, uh we were we have um company consultancies who's taking over then when they have done their internship here in Saxugel trying to figure out how can we find a job for this person outside of SaxoGuel.
And we have 175 companies who which we are collaborating with, and the company consultancy here talked to this is this um person here and was like, How can we find something? And they actually succeeded in finding a uh uh uh an internship outside of SaxoGill and it ended up uh being a job for him. So so a person who and he also was taken care of and trained of his uh alcohol problems and all of that. So so he came really like a person uh who didn't see a feature for himself, and it could also look like uh he had some uh uh that he were kind of right about that, right?
But we really saw him for what he could and and what he also enjoyed doing and he created value here, but also got the confidence to look into his issues in his life, and where we helped him taking care of himself, you can say. So so we gave him the agency and the and the trust in himself that he could do uh his life in another way. And it helped me getting an apartment, and it also helped him getting a job. And and one thing that I really learned, uh I've been here in in the in Saxugel and in Settlemental for two years.
One thing that I really learned is I have never met a person who don't want to be part of their work community. I've never never met a person who say, I would rather sit at home all day doing nothing. Uh that doesn't exist. And sometimes politicians and others like to tell that story, but I have never met it.
And uh if there should be someone who wants to just be at home, it could be some of the people here because they have so many uh issues, right? But they really want to contribute and they really want to create value for others. So so this person I'm talking about here was super proud of the fact that he was now making his own money and he was also creating value for someone at his new workplace. So so that's just uh that's just uh an extremely meaningful uh gift for him, of course, but also for for us who works here because that's what it's all about.
Dragging him out of the system and also making sure that he uh believes in himself and believes in a new future and putting him somewhere where he creates values for himself, but also for others and in in the end also for the whole society, because he's uh part of giving instead of someone who needs uh help. So that that's one story which is I'm really happy about telling because it's just going from something that could be in many eyes really dark and a dark future to something that is uh you can say a a normal life if if that exists.
Yeah, yeah, Christina, that's brilliant. Um thank you for sharing that. And um how how how does it actually work in practice then? Do you own the assets?
Do you own the buildings? Do you get subsidies? Like can you talk a little bit about how you do this? Yeah, so Seglementel, when when Seglementel decided to say we we we're gonna do something here in Saxon, it was in the 80s and it was uh the oil crisis back then was really uh tough on uh on Copenhagen, and we also saw uh all other things like uh the um unemployment rates, uh especially with the young people, were very high.
And uh also supermarkets emerged over overall. So so it was uh a lot of the shops who did uh one special thing they needed to close because you can get it all now in the supermarket. Uh so we had a situation here in Saxo-Gill where all the shops were closed and the young people were um they didn't have anything to do, so they were doing trouble on the streets. Uh and um back then uh Jo Spadelson, who was the uh founder of uh of Saxogel, he uh he thought could we could we find a way where we could mix the fact that people were not doing anything on the street, actually doing trouble, and that the shops were closed.
Could we kind of merge those two and see what could happen? Uh and and that's really uh that's really how how how we started back then. Um so so so uh I I actually lost the question. So what was it about?
No, no, it's fine. Um yeah, it was just about the the how do you go about it, the model, yeah, ownership of the buildings, the relationship with the state, funding those buildings. Yeah, so so so in in Settlemental, we actually don't own the assets. So we are renting the assets from from the co-ops here.
And and the co-ops are also very interested, especially back then in the 80s where all the shops were closed, is very interested in in having a life in the streets and don't have uh closed uh stalls, right? Because of the rent, but also because of the life and and the neighborhood, what it creates. If you have an if if you have an area, and I think it the same rules uh uh applies today, is that if you have an area with empty shops and no life in the streets, it's actually a bit more unsafe to be left.
Because what happens then and you know, graffiti all over, and sometimes something gets destroyed and all of that. So they were of course interested in actually activating the this the shops. Um so we rent the spaces and and then we uh have developed since then different uh uh kinds of shops. Uh, and also we're also very much aware that we need to develop uh shops and tasks within those shops that actually fits the needs for the people coming here as an insurance.
So actually, the only the only shop that we have still have is Cafesonia, which have been there for 40 years, and then the others have changed over time, also because of what what what needs do we have. Of course, we want to make sure that we have a shelf for a longer time, also because it's expensive to to open it and close it again. So so we try to have it for for many years, of course, but they need to be we need to be able to we we need to have some kind of flexibility in the shelves because we need to make sure that we actually have the right tasks for the citizens coming here during a job playing program.
And our whole um economic model is is really like um it is really social uh ec economy in it in its best because we we have um our whole social work with uh with um our uh job training program is uh is uh something we work together with the copehagen municipality and uh the job center which is called uh so they um we we uh we won uh I don't know what it's called but we we we we we got the um they are client first you can say so every every uh insurance coming here uh they are paying something for that because we are making sure that they you know that we make sure that they come to jobs or get out of the system and all of that.
And so that's that's one part. And then of course we have our um um the sales in the in the shelves the whole commercial uh thing uh that's also one part and then we also apply for funding uh different uh funds uh small big I think it's around 120 funds in total uh that we uh work with in Settlemental uh and a lot of them also in Saxobell uh so it's kind kind of a three-legged uh share you know uh that that that's our economy and that's also really strong because uh um then you know we can't as a if if if if a shop closes down or something we don't need the commercial uh sales there and we can we can uh kind of figure it out right because we have other things to to fall on for on so so that's that's really that's really great and it it is really a a break kick collaborations uh also with the committee municipality I think a lot of this a lot of uh times you can hear that the job center is really difficult to work with and all of that but we really we really go into that partnership as partners in that way that we we want to make sure that that's that that every um that we and the job center thinks that this is a valuable partnership so we really see it as something that we need to develop together how do we make sure that we are the best uh offer for for the for the individual person and and we work really well with the job center about that we also have two from Communication uh job center sitting here at the office at the settlement to make sure that we are really close in the decisions around the the different citizens.
So so we really have a great partnership with them and and and I also think that's one of the key elements why we work so well is that we really work with the system and not against the system. Of course we have someone some sometimes citizens coming here who needed to start in a in an internship who really don't believe in the system and really haven't had the greatest experience with the system. So part of our work is also talking to them about how do we we we are not uh the municipality we are a private organization a private NGO but we work with the system but also for the help of the citizen.
So so that's that's really important for us to to do that. So it's it's it's really yeah it's just it it's really how it should be but it's not a uh for everyone to to say that it is like that. But but it we really have a good partnership with the with them. Yeah brilliant and um you were saying to me the other day when you met that you uh economically you can uh pretty much you know compete with other streets or with in terms of rent because you obviously have the base levels of rent that you get then you get the grants or the or the subsidies from from the government.
So do you see that that that is a model it's actually not grants or subsidies. They're actually paying us in actually that's also a commercial relationship. Okay could you explain that yeah sorry sorry so so it's um so so the the companion job center and the companion has a job for someone to solve and then uh different actors apply for doing that job and we want it so we we are actually doing that doing their uh they the this task that they have which is doing the internships so we won that uh from one won that task the same way as you can win a project in development right so so so that's that that's so that that's actually also a commercial relationship right so it's not it's not that they are uh yeah giving us a grand or something for that that's something else when we do that that's more private funding uh we when we do that uh so so so this is actually like a commercial uh relationship uh and that's that's really important as well uh because uh it also means that they uh they know that we can live up to it right it's it's really uh and they also want us to do of course but we can also do that and we are actually uh doing it really really well uh yeah brilliant yeah and um and and could this be done on other streets in Copenhagen why why is it not in that sense I I think it's that I think that's a very good question.
It's something I've been thinking a lot about myself. Why why don't we see other streets in Copenhagen and also why don't we see other streets in the world doing this? Because I really think that the that the whole business model around social economy here really makes sense uh because um in Copenhagen we also see a lot of shops closing down because it's really difficult to compete with the internet. And uh and of course we also see that challenge here in Saxobill but but it's we we have the whole world uh the whole social world the whole social dimension and social economic economy that really is one of the reasons why we don't have to to to close our shops.
So we have we have a more like um secured way of running a business it's still super tough but but it's we have we have that whole thing about doing the internship programs which makes makes us a bit more safe than someone who wasn't doing that. And of course it's not everyone who can do uh who can have interns with uh a lot of needs and a lot of uh things you need to be aware of but but maybe if you slowly educated yourself in that direction or or helped yourself talking to others who was doing it for example us then I actually think a lot more could do it.
So so of course we can do it and we have been done doing it for 40 years because we are really good at it and and that we have really skilled workers all around but but I actually think it could be something others were also doing uh but they need to I also think they need to educate the get educated in in the area of how difficult is it and how difficult is it not to do. I also think there's a lot of knowledge that the people don't have around this area and I think that can be the reason why people don't just jump into it.
Yeah yeah so you see sorry sorry so yeah so yeah so you have if you take a try to take a like a practical example just so I'm really trying to learn from from this model because I'm so fascinated by it. Yeah. So if you take like the barber shop opposite or something and you take the equivalent shop the same size three streets away. Yeah how does that compare say annually in terms of um how much rent that they're paying like in a simple kind of commercial level like because you because you as you say you kind of your model is more nuanced, isn't it?
Yeah yeah yeah it is how do you do you have a feel for what that would how that would compare? I think you can if you take our children's shop, which is is uh quite uh when you go come inside and see that it's a very nice, beautiful children's shop and you I think you don't you wouldn't necessarily be aware that this is part of a socioeconomic street. And then you see people going there and then you maybe understand it in in a while. But I think if you compare that to another children's shop, then I think it's it's um it's actually uh the same and maybe even a bit more in in terms of how good the economy is.
What we see now in that area is that a lot of children's shop is closing in Coke Megan. But we are not we we can see that it's a difficult market. That's for sure we we are not like um going around that but but it's it's but we are still here. So I think that's a very concrete example.
Just on just to push on that example a little bit more do you do you have a why are you why is it why is that one still here and not the one elsewhere? I I think it's because that we are not only here to sell goods we are also here to do uh the the internships and that's also something that we're getting paid for right so it's not only the goods that we are selling that is making sure we are there it's also because of the work we do for people who need to find a new way in their life.
And and that's really like core to what we do in in Saxol right so we have both components and that's the reason why we are a bit say more safe as a physical shop. It's still super tough and and I also think the the is it very important to note as well that we every day is trying to find a balance between the commercial side and also the social side. That's super difficult because what we can see is that if we have if we have a lot of job train in if we have a lot of people in job training in one shop we can do less in the commercial side.
If we focus a lot of the commercial side we can do less on the job training side. So so it's it's it's really finding the right balance and we try to figure out what the right balance is every week. And of course we're we we are pretty good at it but but it's still something that we really struggle with. And and and also because the people who are coming here in in the internship in the job training program of course they're different every one of them so we're also trying to figure out what task fits best for the the different individual right so in that way the shops also change a bit all the time because we need to figure out okay now you're here what can you do?
What would you like to do and how can we help you? So so but but it's it's it's really so without any data behind me or anything I my my take on it is really that because we are socioeconomic we are more likely to survive than the shops who isn't yeah yeah someone would I guess challenge me on that but but that's uh how I see it. Yeah and it's and it's a sustainable model isn't it it's been going for uh 40 or so years as you say and and the street is thriving you could see that and I know you know if I cycle a couple of streets up it it isn't as vibrant and interesting as this street and that's a testament testament to that.
And is that what you've described you mentioned to me before about this three step step process or something is that yeah we have a a method called the stepping stone method and that's that's really you we see Saxogir as a stepping stone towards job education. So when when people arrive here in in the internship program they they have been as I said outside the job market for quite a long time and they need a stepping stone back into it or they are in the beginning of their working career so they need a stepping stone to start their career.
So so and and that's a method that we have been developing for 15 years now and it's it's uh it's been um evaluated and proven to work and it's it's really something that we are proud of. We have eight steps in that stepping stone method where we where we talk through those steps? I can remember all of them but it's really um I can get it I have it in the flyer that's okay yeah we'll yeah we'll come back but but but we it's really it's really eight steps about how do we make sure that when uh when when uh a a person is is starting in in settlemental in our job training program how do we make sure that we actually deliver on the on the mission that we have that we need to pull people out of the system so they can have a dream for themselves in the future.
And I think one of the steps is that we are we are we are super close to to the to the different uh uh interns here so and every intern has a mentor and they have a contact in the shop would be the um shop manager and they also have um company consultancies when they are ready to to move on to another internship and every person have that and then we have meetings uh every week with them and every month uh with the um the manager of the shop to to talk about what's going uh how is it going uh what's going really well where can we uh where do we have some challenges that we need to talk about and and how can we um accommodate those and how can we uh move on from that or or how can we change the tasks so that you actually are able to succeed in what you do.
And we do that with every person every week every month and that's super important and we do it together with the intern. So we're not talking about the intern without the intern being there. So and that's that's also quite important because that's that that's also back to the fact that we are giving them agencies to do to help themselves in in their life and we and they are not helpless. They are just people who need guidance and and some uh great places to be where we actually believe in what they can and also seize what they can't and and also find a way to figure out how we still make it work.
Yeah so so there are a lot of great steps I can't remember but but it's it's it's it's really something that we have been developing and also proven to work and and um and it and it works and it's something that that people also see working. So we are yeah yeah incredible incredible and um and so Christian for you for you personally you know you're clearly incredibly passionate and purposeful and that struck me the other day like as soon as I met you it was great to just hear that and I'm sure everyone listening has got that from you today.
But do you have a sense of why like why you personally why are you doing this? Yeah but I I think from for me I I'm still quite early in my work career I would say I'm in the mid in the mid-30s so from for me I understood that that the whole the the reason why I should wake up every morning and do something should really be something that I thought was meaningful. And and when I struck by this job and then also the opportunity to to work in settlement it was really clear to me that that here I could be doing something that was where it was quite quite clear for me who is I'm actually working for and what is the all the time I use in my life in at work, how is that actually creating a value for someone?
And here it's just really clear to me who is it that I create that value for. It's people who really need a new path in their life and it's people who have been struggling a lot which need a community they can be part of where they're not seeing for everything they can't do but what they can do and also where they understand that it's okay to be as they are. So so that meaning and that is super important for me. And at the same time I'm I'm really driven um driven in the work of uh also the the uh Saxwell is really a really nice platform for testing a lot of stuff and it's it's a really nice platform for showing the world how we could create cities and also how we could uh do city development really um I don't think that Sedimentu necessarily started the project to show how placemaking or city development could be done but I just think it's just a great case because it's it's really the people we are working for but in that sense it's also the city and also we're creating another city experience because it is so people focused.
And that's really nice and it's something that that is really inspiring to work with every day to to do something that really makes sense for some people, a lot of people but also to have it as a platform for trying stuff out and doing it in the middle of Copenhagen in a very nice area as Vestable is really fun. So I I in my former jobs I've been working a lot with events and cultural development and city development and and business development of creative companies and all of that and that's also super giving giving for me to do that.
But the whole people element have been a bit missing because it's very people with a lot of resources who I have worked with in in in this that's that um in those cases. So to be able to do both because I I still have the whole project thing and the development thing here in Saxwell but to doing that with all the people who really which can really be something for us is is really giving for me. Yeah well well it's brilliant that you are you're doing that and um and you can see it's it it's it's really giving you a lot of joy and and purpose yourself.
And uh do you do you have a sense just going like a little bit deeper like where that comes from in you like is it because it's partly societal here I know which is is really interesting and I would say different from the UK and many other places but do you have a sense of of of that? Where it comes from for me personal yeah yeah it's a good question. I think I think it's really may maybe maybe sometimes I can I can get uh the feeling that we are we are really lucky in Denmark and we really a lot of us really has a great life and also the really great possibilities to get all of it as we we a lot of us could really get almost everything we want.
And and then still we have a lot of people uh who can't in in in in in Denmark and that's really unfair uh so so I think it's it's it's about how can it be that we are so fortunate in in Denmark and in Copenhagen and how can it be that so many can live whatever life they want and still a lot of people can do that. So so I think it's it's about how can we I I think that's that that that that's really just unfair and how can we work with that and how can how can I be part of creating um a better future for those who are not that fortunate.
Yeah I also think it's just about making sure that people know that there are other people in the world that themselves and that people are also different from them. It's also very giving for me that you know we can all live in our different echo chambers and be very little aware of how is life and how is different life situations outside of our little home. And that's also very giving for me to see that someone is really living a tough life and have been doing that for many years and we need to make sure how we can uh create yeah again how can we create uh more uh light futures for those people and uh not uh so they don't don't look into darkness really and uh and that's that's something that we also do here every day um and it's very giving uh to to be aware of that and also try to move to a better future for those.
Because I I think that we yeah again back to echo chambers we are really not that aware that uh in here at Vestabo uh it's becoming a really rich area but still we're actually having more people living on the streets and we are seeing the people who come in here in internships they really have tough backgrounds and they they have really been struggling uh with their lives and that's happening at the same time as um the whole city is becoming really rich and that's just unfair and that's something that we need to create um spaces for uh to to work with but also to to see that uh there are different people than you uh out there.
Christian thank you very very much for joining me still on the grow places podcast thank you so much thank you thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast for more information visit growplaces.com and follow us at Regrow Places across all social channels.
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