GP 64: Team London: Why is London Such a Draw with Rose Wangen-Jones of London and Partners

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places Podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth, and place. Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, Tom Larson. Rose, thanks very much for joining me today on the Grow Places Podcast. It's great to see you and to be here on Union Street in Southwark.

Great location. And it would be great to hear a bit more about yourself today, the work you do here at London Partners, and you know why London is such a special city. Oh, my best questions ever. Good morning.

Thank you very much for having me. So, yes, my name is Rose Wengan-Jones, and I am the managing director for marketing, destination, and commercial at London and Partners. I think some people may not have heard about London and Partners. So, London and Partners is the growth agency for London.

And basically what that means is that we create economic growth for London that is resilient, sustainable, and inclusive. And I can talk a lot more about that if you wish. My role within that is aside from the commercial side in terms of managing our partners and some of our commercial ventures. I also oversee marketing.

So we promote London for investment, for tourism. We help businesses basically grow whether within London or outside of London. We also attract with the convention bureau, we attract events, and also with our experience group, basically major events like sporting events, cultural events, etc. So yeah, and we attract them.

You know, I want to say that my job is the most exciting and the easiest one in the world because London is a fantastic city. But uh but the one thing we know uh is that London, we cannot be complacent. So yes, London has a lot of attractions and we do very well in uh uh in branding you know methodologies, but uh but we do that because we work really, really hard at it. Incredible, incredible.

So so go on then. So what is the elevator pitch? What is the purpose statement, the why for London for you? You know, when someone says that to you, where do you what's your first response?

My first response is always we are the unique and perfect combination of what uh is the iconic and the new and innovative. Now that is different depending on what the audience is. When um I think about tourism, that means that they can do all the historical and cultural things that really attract them to London, but they can explore um fantastic new experiences, uh new food, etc. So again, it's that combination of things.

Um, when I think about um uh investment, um, one of the things that they uh they're looking for is the security and safety, the stability of a city, and we offer that uh with uh legal and stuff, but they're also looking for talent and what's next. So when they're expanding their business, they want to get the best talent, but they want to understand and be around the best innovation. So um those are kind of two extremes, and again, we can talk about business tourism, etc. But that's what I would say, and I think we do we do that uniquely uh in uh in London.

Yeah, fascinating. And um I think you know I would I'm agreeing with everything you're saying and thinking it's brilliant. Um but also like you know, London's, you know, globally at the moment, you know, there's a lot going on, and London it has its place within that as Londoners, we we feel that. But you know, there's a perception thing with London as well at the moment, isn't there?

So how how do you how do you see those discussions when you're talking inwardly about people looking at London rather than us looking at London from within? Um perceptions, I mean that's that's kind of my job. And I and I would say not to minimize because we do have some some challenges in perception for some particular audiences right now. Um the reality is, and this is why I talked about not being complacent, the context is always changing, and there's always going to be some challenge.

When I first joined, um it seems ironic now, but it was Brexit. That was the real challenge, and the fact that London didn't feel very welcoming, there was this perception of welcoming. Um I would say that that welcome perception uh remains with us, even if the context uh changes. So making sure that we're always presenting London as welcoming, whether for visitors, for events, for investment, is the number one uh priority for us.

I think one of the challenges that us and actually many cities across the world are facing is uh misinformation and disinformation. And that's something that uh that London in particular has been seeing that. We haven't seen that necessarily impacting from a leisure tourism point of view, but we see that you know in conversation with uh with investment, um, certainly anecdotally. So it's really, really important that we're going kind of we're being proactive, you know, about that.

One of the things that we are doing in a much more um coordinated or disciplined way is the way we talk about London and understanding that we at London and Partners, that is our kind of number one job, but we're not the only ones out there. Anybody that uh has to talk about London as part of their pitch or their conversation, anybody that has to answer the question why London, as part of the conversations they're having with their clients, arguably has a stake in London's brand.

And we are now working much harder at two things: convening everybody, making sure that people are working together in a more coordinated fashion so that you know everything goes that much further. Um, and also providing the messaging, so a much more consistent messaging. Why is London great for this, whether it's talent and universities or innovation, or whether it's culture, whether it's we have the fans here. So there's a messaging thing that we want to make sure that everybody has it available so that we're all kind of singing the way we caught talk about it, is singing from the same hymn sheet, and that's what we call uh Team London.

So it's everybody kind of working towards the same goal because everybody benefits. Yeah, yeah, fascinating. And then and then when you look, maybe if we stay with the big picture for the minute and then I think we could dive down into some specific issues. But um, in terms of the big picture, like where where can London learn from?

You know, what what what what cities around the world, what places, what yeah, do you just kind of things come up where you're like, okay, we could really do better in that respect? We do a lot well, but uh we can we can always we can always do better. I think we are very lucky that when you look across a lot of uh rankings, we are either the top city or uh top three. And I would say that across, you know, across many different rankings, depending, you know, that uh combined kind of livability and lovability and things like that about uh investibility uh about the city.

Um I think we can learn both from big cities and from little uh cities. Um we have London is quite a complex um city, and one of the things that actually that we do uh and one of the reasons we exist is to help people navigate London, you know, like I said, whether for leisure or for investment when you're establishing your um your business. So for some of those, you know, we always look to our main competitors, uh, which are the New Yorks and the Paris's and the uh San Francisco.

Um but there is so much to learn from um cities in China. Uh when you think about sustainability, uh we look at places like um Iceland, we look at places like uh Valencia. Um now sometimes some people can can say, oh, but they have it a lot easier because they're smaller. I think we can't think that way.

There's always something, some nuggets to take from everyone. And whether what what they're it's about what they're doing on the ground. Uh it is about what they're doing when they're when they're placemaking, uh, in terms of what they're doing in terms of the attraction and how they kind of navigate the city when they think about it as a as a uh you know, where to put different things, um, or the way they're talking about it. So it's not just the marketing, there are a lot of different elements um that we can uh we can learn from.

Um yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And um, and that's always changing as well, isn't it? You know, London is a is a world city and has been for you know a long time.

Yeah, trading at the trading hub, the time zone, we've got all those really, really positive things. But then, you know, whether it's social issues or economic issues or technology, I know they're all kind of one and the same thing because it's it's about cities and people and how we live. But you know, that's constantly shifting, isn't it? And and so so that kind of underlying resilience to a place that which ties directly to attractiveness, doesn't it?

You know, it has to be resilient, as you say, to be attractive. Um if you look forward then, if you project forwards, you know, the the the vision for London 510 into the future, um how how do you see that story playing out? Do you think it's kind of more of the same, or is there like other sort of things that you're you're looking to promote, or you know, how do you see that? Um I would absolutely say it is never more of the same.

The way we consistently talk about uh London is that it's always evolving. I mean, we have thousands of years uh behind us. Um I have I was in a in a meeting recently and we talked about layering, how all of that kind of works together, the fact that you know the kind of the old you know kind of supports the uh the new. So no, it's never about standing still.

In terms of moving forward, um last year we uh the the mayor and the London Councils published the London Growth Plan that will then chart the territory or where we see growth coming to London in the next 10 years. Um and they identify five specific um uh sectors for that, including university, uh, experience economy, um, frontier innovation, and and then financial services, um, um, etc. And and that, if I think about the future, those are the the five pillars that we are that we're looking at.

We at London and Partners don't necessarily lead in all of them. We lead in in uh uh three out of or two out of the five, uh, but we support the other ones that we don't um that we don't lead. Um the one thing maybe maybe this shows a little bit of my bias. I don't know, but the one thing that I do think it's really important that we were really delighted that was called out as part of the uh the growth sectors is uh what's called the experience economy.

Um and I do think that that is where London can continue to excel, and that's a real focus for us. It's it's how do we develop the experiences so that people want to come not just to visit, but to live. And it is that talent that then attracts the businesses, etc. It's kind of that virtuous cycle.

So I think that we see experience economy, something that I'm I must admit that I think pre-COVID probably people took a little bit for granted. It's like, oh, people are going to come to London and people are this. And that is not the case. That is not the case.

You know, um we have a lot of competition, and it's really, really important to have the not just the infrastructure, but the uh the experiences, the activity, um, whether it be food, whether it be culture, whether it be music, whether it's kind of the in innovation and and and and and and playing and experiencing what uh what people do. I think that really is kind of integral, almost like a baseline for a lot of the other the other growth sectors. So um so that that's an area that I think is probably slightly different than the way maybe other cities are looking at you know the the elements that will help them grow into the future.

Aaron Powell Yeah. Yeah, no, fascinating. And um I know that London and Partners, you're kind of as you said, you mentioned there, you're part of the GLA, you're under the you know, the mayor. That administration talks a lot about this idea of kind of good growth, doesn't it?

So how how how do you think about that in the context of everything you've talked about and people living, working here, visiting? Aaron Powell For us, that's why we go back to the whole idea of resilience, you know, um uh sustainable and inclusive. And I think that all the I think that's a very good point, actually, because when we talk about economic growth, we don't just don't mean like just bring anything and everything. So I think there there are there are three areas that I would say.

Number one, we focus on those um growth areas as part of the growth plan. So it's not just, you know, obviously we welcome anything beyond that, but in terms of you know our resources, um we we focus on on those because we do think that those are the ones that will provide that that the right kind of growth. So that's number one. Number two, um, it's also about uh green investment.

So a lot of that, when we focus in those areas, is green investment within those areas to make that to make that possible. Uh there's a commitment for London uh um to be, you know, to be green, very, you know, and we do have challenges because you know the the fantasticness about London that it's an old city is that the challenge is that it is an old city. So some things you know are can be a bit a bit difficult to uh to upgrade. Uh but that's very much front and center.

Um the next thing I would say is on the inclusivity. And this is about uh we create that economic growth to benefit Londoners. Um that is first and foremost. That's why that's why we're here.

But it's not, you know, it's the Londoners. We particularly focus on Londoners of uh underrepresented uh minorities. Um we work with companies when they look at their talent strategies to make sure that those job opportunities are um expanded, that they're looking in areas that maybe they wouldn't have thought about. So that when they are from from the day from day one, they're looking at that kind of inclusive and diversity, which is such a key strength of uh of London.

So those are I would say those are kind of um areas where we uh where we are looking at uh at that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's fascinating. And I think within that and that kind of overarching theme of inclusivity, you've also got cost of living, haven't you, within that as well, which I think is obviously particularly, you know, it's um places become victims of their own success, don't they?

Because major cities around the around the globe are all also the most expensive places. And that's partly because we can't build enough and we can't we don't have enough um opportunities um yeah to to to provide for for the positive side of of the growth. And I think that's you know, sort of to where we are, you know, we've got growth in our name, grow places, and that for us means try try and grow places that improve quality of life for all. And we try to do that through kind of long-term thoughtful regeneration and asset management and um uh trying to think really positively about the future.

And, you know, if we if we didn't do that, we wouldn't be a developer. You know, we we have to do that to to to to develop and to move things on. So we're we're very much pro-growth in that sense. Um but we we find it, you know, increasingly, you know, it's challenging to bring forward development that is well, I could end the sentence there to bring forward development, but to bring forward development that is, you know, inclusive and um and and does generate kind of value, good growth, however you want to describe that.

So so maybe now then kind of sort of within that big picture context, now thinking about you know what we do and the the built environment industry, um how do you see that supporting and enabling everything that you do? Because I always like to think that what we do is we try to figure out what society and economics and people are trying to do, what what do they want to achieve in their life, and then what do they need from the built environment to to kind of enable that? Yeah.

So I would I would talk about two things there. One, we have a sister organization, Opportunity London. Um have you heard of Opportunity London? Um and that um it's been around two years, I think now, two years.

Um and it interestingly, one thing again, I talked about how difficult it is sometimes to navigate London. One of the things that um really hadn't happened, and it seems obvious once once you start doing it, is bringing together these investable opportunities and uh and kind of coming up with a London story, London for investment, and going out to uh the right you know, conferences, etc., with the right uh with the right message, as opposed to everybody just going off and trying to support, uh rightly so, to support their area.

But if we do it as a team, as Team London, then I think we have a better um uh better outcomes. So that organization specifically is looking for investable when when um uh you look at the site and you looked at the investable options that they're out there in the in the market uh selling for you know pension funds, etc., for investment, um they include uh, for example, um a housing, housing that is affordable housing. So already strategically, we are already putting you know uh investment opportunities in that uh in that same uh in that same framework.

Uh and they're doing and they're doing quite uh um quite well with that. Um I don't know if if you've heard of of of of any of that, no? Yeah, not not in detail, so yeah, that's helpful to so that's that's that's uh that's really interesting. In the from an LMP point of view, um I I'm gonna call it placemaking.

I don't know if you would call it, I know that it has different different definitions, but for us, one of the things we're looking when we are looking at all these different growth sectors, let me take probably the easiest um or the easiest one is um uh life sciences, for example. Um so we then look across, you know, we are um uh best creating clusters, so clusters of innovation in in this case, and whether that means because they're closer to labs, for example, or they're closer to universities.

Um again, so it's uh it's about um driving the development and the investment to the right places uh for the right things, if that makes sense. So on the one hand, we're doing the big, you know, long-term investment with Opportunity London from an LMP point of view, we are trying to establish and bring businesses to enhance particular areas in the experience economy, we're doing that as well. So when we think about if we need stadium, uh stadia or anything like that, we're looking at working with the different councils, with the boroughs to say, okay, if you're trying to attract investors, you know, what investment do you need in hotels, etc.?

And then as they develop that, working with the communities to make sure that it is right for that community. You know, we have a kind of a London brand and London uh um uh personality, if you will, but each area will have its own personality that kind of you know wants to attract that uh as part of as part of the community. So it's creating kind of those clusters, those ecosystems that um that I think then drives the right um the right development. And then the support we give, as I said, for example, talent once you're there, working with communities, getting the right talent, you know, just making sure that uh that you know we're we're we're we're making everything work towards that good growth we're looking for.

Yeah, yeah, fascinating. And um you've kind of touched on it there, but it'd be good to explicitly cover it. Like who who are the partners then in the London and partners? Because you've you've talked about it there.

You've obviously got businesses, you've got um uh b you know incoming um visitors, tourists, you've got local communities. How how do you how do you think about the the notion of partners within what you do? Um we cannot achieve what we do without partners, full stop, you know, and that is why um as and when we came up with our name, a brand name, um that's why that's why it's there. So that really is front and center.

Uh we are um partially ground funded, we're partially commercial funded, but the truth is that the people that we bring on um commercially, you know, on a partnership uh basis are very much aligned to our mission, and it is to enable our mission or to increase the impact of our mission. So I wanted to kind of highlight that because it's not just again, just like kind of anybody and and and everybody, the people are, you know, the the people we work with, the organizations we work with, very much aligned to what we are, what we're doing.

Uh but we work with with anybody, anybody that shares that mission. So it can be from um uh hotels and airports uh from a um uh tourism point of view, from a business tourism point of view, Excel, um and and um Olympia things, things uh places uh like that. We work with developers, Lend Lease, for example, is is a big partner of ours. We're with financial institutions, uh, Fidelity is a big partner of the work we do.

But we have over 400 partners at different, you know, with different uh tiers and different uh levels of of engagement. Um but I can tell you with without them we would not be able to offer the business support um that uh that we need, and we would not be able to promote London and have that kind of that team London uh to spread the message. Um it just wouldn't be possible. Yeah, yeah, awesome.

And um and how how do you think about the work that you do and and London as obviously the the capital city of the UK, the economic centre? Um but how do you think about the work that you do related with London and other cities or you know UK as a whole? How do you have a view on that? And and how do you think about that in terms of London's economic, social uh position?

Yeah, no, that's a really good point because we also work in partnership with other parts of the UK. Um, in the London Growth Plan. And working for the benefit of the rest of the UK is a specific ambition for London. We work very well with all the other regions from a tourism point of view, for example.

So we coordinate campaigns and work so that we make sure that we are collaborating and complementing each other. Huge surprise, nobody has buckets of money. So we all know that working together is the best way to kind of maximize the budgets that we that we all have. So that works really well there.

We work with other, so again, Scotland. People, you know, competition, there's you know, kind of there's no such thing in a way, you know, we all kind of work together. Um similarly, it would with the other regions of England. Uh, we work uh very closely with uh Manchester, West Midlands, uh, Liverpool.

So it's yeah, we all we all kind of support each other. There is a recognition that in some cases maybe, yes, we might be competitive, but in most most of the time we are not. We can complement each other. And I think it's really important to understand when you see the data, if the incoming or the first place to think about or to come, whether for an event or or for business or for tourism, is London.

Our job is to say, okay, how can we make that that the next place goes goes beyond London? Um and that is definitely part of our strategy. Yeah, yeah, cool. And then so you you're a Londoner yourself, do you live here, or what how how what's your personal story?

Like I am a Londoner, my girls are Londoners. My husband is Welsh, I'm Puerto Rican, actually. Um, so that's where I was born and raised. But I had been in London for oh goodness, I mean, nearly 30 years now.

Um, and I yeah, and I absolutely, I absolutely love it. Um so um I I consider myself a Londoner. I think anybody that that comes to London uh has the opportunity to to be to be a Londoner and to contribute in in in some way and to represent us again, that that diversity. But yeah, I absolutely love it.

Yeah, yeah. And and what what what drives you to do what you do? You know, what you're clear clearly incredibly passionate about, not just the city, but the role that you play and and the the the brand and the stories that you're promoting day to day. So you yeah, why why are you so personally passionate about that?

Is it well I love I come from a marketing and advertising background. Um I I love brands, I think they're incredibly powerful. If you do them right, they can be a shorthand to a to a huge amount of communication and feeling, and I really love that. Um and I have seen that I've worked across many, many categories, and it's it's just you know, so you know interesting to um to see that the power, basically the the power of brands simplistically.

For this particular job, you know, honestly, who doesn't want to talk about, you know, who doesn't want London as a brand? Um, so it was a little bit of a no-brainer for me when when this opportunity, you know, um came up, um, that it would just be such a privilege to to support and to create that brand uh and to help others kind of talk about the brand in the way that we would we would like to make the best for the city. From my perspective, what has kept me here, uh, because I've been at LMP for nearly seven years, what has kept me here, aside from the the challenge is always changing, is the impact that we that we make.

Um I I always feel that the work I've done is is is impactful, but in this case, we really are kind of creating growth for the city and for other Londoners, and that is quite rewarding. So um, so I I do find the job itself exciting and challenging, but uh, but quite rewarding. Yeah, yeah, amazing. And and your your girls and your your husband and everyone, are they do they have the bug as well, the London bug?

Are they so passionate about it? Absolutely. I mean Gareth has been here for for ages. Uh, and the girls are you know born and bred here, and it's it's and they are through and through Londoners, you know, they go, you know, they go somewhere else and they just they miss they miss the city.

Um because everything's at their doorstep. And for me, it just I come from a very small island, and what they have been exposed just by living in London, literally just by walking down the street in terms of you know languages and and religions and different ways of living and food, um I think it's it's amazing and incredibly, incredibly valuable. And I think it just makes them, you know, better people. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And um and yeah, that that diversity, you know, we always come back to that theme, don't we? And I think that is an incredible uniqueness about London. Absolutely.

Not just not only the diversity of people, which is incredibly important, but the diversity of of the different neighbourhood characters, the diversity of different uses, the fact that um we do have some sort of mono-use areas, maybe like the city or uh or Canary Wharf or other things, but generally speaking, it's a very mixed city, isn't it, in terms of the uses and and everything, which I think for us that makes it incredibly resilient when you think about it moving forwards and um it's walkable, you know, the the public transport's great.

Um you can cycle everywhere, it's not quite as good as say Copenhagen, but you can cycle everywhere. So I think lots of those things make me incredibly, you know, optimistic about London and uh related to other cities from a development perspective and and and an inward investment perspective. Um but like if we were to just to like take the gloss off it for a second and say, okay, well what would be no, you're not allowed, but you know, but what would be what are the what are like the the the risk factors you would say around London?

Because we are in an incredible position as a city, as a brand. There's obviously, as we talked about earlier in in this discussion, there's some probably misplaced kind of perceptions about London, I I would suggest. Um but as you as you say, there there is there is competition, these things aren't static, you know. Um we we have to continue to work at it, don't we, as a collective, to keep London working for the local people but attractive for business and um uh able to change and develop.

Um so yeah, how how do you what what would you say? What are the things that kind of wouldn't say necessarily keep you up at night, but are sort of you think, oh, we really need to be mindful of those. Yeah. Well, yeah, some things do keep me up at night because um yes, London is not is certainly not perfect and not without its challenges.

I think the first thing that keeps me up at night, uh, and I talked about it already, is complacency. There is, yes, the gloss, and I'm obviously I'm paid to tell you how fantastic London is, but London is fantastic. Uh it's not just me saying it, literally, rankings are, you know, do show it as well. Uh, and that's great, and then that's and that's you know, obviously law may continue.

But the one thing is that is this the perception that that just happens by by magic is uh is just it can be concerning. So whether people don't feel a sense of shared responsibility, which which I hope you feel in terms of you know creating the right London and talking and talking about the benefits of London, so it's that shared responsibility or the investment that that requires. Um I mean, obviously I'm biased, so I would say from a marketing point of view, it requires investment.

Uh, but there's other other things that need to happen on the ground, uh, on the ground as well. So not being complacent is is is the one the a big risk that uh that I would want to avoid. I think a risk that's new, and I don't know the answer, so I'll I'll I'll start with that, uh, because we a lot of our cities are grappling that uh is is what we talked about with uh disinformation and and misinformation. I think we need to separate, uh I think we need to be factual, I think we need to be honest.

Uh there are some things in when we had a major spate of of kind of you know petty crime on the streets that um uh that puts people puts people off and it just gives them a bad experience and feeling of of of the city. So we can't minimize that. But then when things are improving or when things are exaggerated to the point of of well not being factual and not being true, um, that is a real that is a real challenge. So right now, that is a challenge, like I said, for us.

We are um working in different ways to kind of try to understand it and try to um um uh counter it, part of it, but marketing can't do that by itself. But marketing does play a role, and that's one of the things that that we're doing, but there are other things that are happening to uh to understand and to counteract that. Um that's why I think from our perspective, this whole concept of Teen London and having more people talk about the lived experience uh and the reality of it, you know, just helps spread uh spread the message so that we build the um uh the brand equity that that we need to resist when when it's being quote unquote attacked.

Um so I would say those are two things. Um we have other challenges that you know we at LMP are not, you know, don't necessarily deal, you know, um can address, let's put it that way. It's not for us to resolve. But um, you know, infrastructure or or transport, uh, you talked about cost of living, uh, we talked about you know housing, things like that, you know, without a doubt.

Um but that's for for others to kind of uh consider for us is to consider how we can make sure that we are presenting it in a in a factual and true way uh and helping people navigate some of those challenges uh when they consider you know coming to coming to London. Yeah, yeah, incredible. And um and uh you know I think maybe like it's been a fascinating conversation to sort of end with uh something for people to go away and think about. You know, if you were you probably are involved in some of the conversations about briefs for um given visions for the city, whether it's for a a a neighbourhood or for a a new use or for a new sports venue or something.

If you were to be like really, you know, optimistic about uh a project brief or a project vision for a new piece of London or for a new project or something that we're missing, you know, however you want to take that. Is there anything that really comes to mind? You're like, God, it would be amazing if in five, ten years London had or did this physically within the built environment. Um there there are several things that we could do.

I I I do have a soft spot for experience economy, so I do think that um more larger venues for either you know events or conferences, you know, would be would be nice to have. Um we already are seeing a lot of growth from the uh from an investment on the hotel and kind of experience point of view. That's uh again new experiences and that innovation we had, you know, have a voyage, you know, that came a few years ago, that was fantastic. But more of that from my perspective is is really important because it attracts not just um the on the in the moment, but it provides a backdrop to um um to what we do.

And like I said, to me, that's kind of the the baseline to attract if we have a good experience, if people think of London as a great place to be and to do things, uh, and it makes them feel good. I do think the other things will come. But I will admit I'm a little bit biased. But that would be the one thing.

Um there are different areas that we're looking at. We are talking about um expanding the footprint um of London. Uh the West End is the jewel in the crown, it's fantastic and it it's it's a great economic driver for the city. Nothing against that.

But we do know that there are other areas outside of that that provide their own authentic experience, uh, both for businesses and for um for visitors. Uh, and for me, expanding that footprint is uh it's going to be really, really important so that um so that people see more of London. Rose, thanks very much for your time today on the Great Places Podcast. It's been fascinating to hear your take on on London, the passion that you bring to it.

And um yeah, it's a really great city and and feel very privileged to work here. I'm sure you do too. Thank you. Thank you very much.

And here I wanted to give you you're now officially a Team London member. Oh, there you go. There you go. You have you have jewelry to put on.

That's uh but anyway, thank you very much. It's very much fun. Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplaces.

com and follow us at We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.