Procurement Is Where the Magic Happens - With Simon Brindle

Humans where the magic happens. I think it is. It is that moment of opportunity where you haven't yet signed a contract, you haven't decided what you're going to buy. You are this huge possibility of the things you can achieve with that level of investment. And to not just buy the thing that you think you want, you need tomorrow. But how many jobs can you influence with that? How much? What's your contribution to net zero with that? What can you do to boost social value as you spend money in the public sector? So there's a huge privilege to be at that space before the decisions are taken to influence what goes to market. So procurement is where the magic happens. The Powering Procurement podcast is brought to you by Atomis source to contract software designed to save you time and money. Hello and welcome to Powering Procurement, a podcast by Atomis, where we unpack the world of procurement and supply chain management with the help of industry leaders. I'm your host, Sharm Lloyd and this is our resident expert, Gareth Birch. Hi. After 20 years in procurement, I may be billed as an expert, but believe me, I'm here to learn too. Each episode, together with our expert guests, we'll dive into specific challenges and opportunities facing the procurement industry today and we'll explore easy wins and longer term strategies to help you rise to the challenge of driving value through your work while showcasing the power of procurement. So let's get going. Hello and welcome to another episode of Powering Procurement. Today's guest is someone who sits right at the centre of public sector transformation in Wales. Simon Brindle is the Director of Commercial and Procurement at Welsh Government, where he leads the teams responsible for how the Welsh public sector works with suppliers, delivers value for money and ultimately supports the delivery of public services across the country. Simon stepped into that role in 2025, but his experience across government spans more than 30 years. Before leading commercial and procurement, he played a key role in Wales response to the COVID 19 pandemic as director for Covid Recovery and Restart, helping shape how the country rebuilt and reset following one of the most disruptive periods in modern public service. His career has taken him across some of the most important policy and transformation programmes in government. He's held senior leadership roles within Welsh government, covering areas such as European transition, education, funding and infrastructure and social services reform. He's also spent time at HM treasury, helping drive strategy and policy at the heart of UK government and in the private sector with Accenture. Along the way, Simon has built a reputation for working at the intersection of policy, delivery and innovation. Including leading the Public Service Innovation Lab for Wales through nesta. Today, he's responsible for helping shape the future of procurement across Wales at a time when public sector procurement is going through one of the biggest transformations in decades. Well, Simon, it's a fantastic resume and cv, you've done so much. Welcome to the podcast. Yeah, Sean, it's great to be here. Thank you. Really looking forward to talking to you. I mean, your career really has taken you to one of the most influential roles and jobs in procurement here in Wales. I'd be interested just in turning the clock back a little bit, though, to ask you what led you into a career in procurement? What drew you into that? And I suppose, did you ever foresee that you'd end up leading procurement at Welsh government? I think all through my career I've been looking for challenges where I think I can add value and kind of, you know, move things forward and whether. And that if you join across all those different places and all those different things, there's something in there about strategy, finance, change and leading people to make those things happen. And I think I hadn't necessarily imagined procurement was the place I would overcome, but I'm. I've quite bringing those skills and that experiences into this role where I think, yeah, it was ripe for change and we could do a lot of things. And it's really exciting to see where we've already come in the last 612 months. Yeah. And it's interesting because so many of our guests say they didn't necessarily always think about procurement as a career. Whether they fell into it, it was something that developed very much with their experiences. Looking back then, through your career, are there any particular moments or experiences that perhaps you think have helped shape the approach that you now take? Yeah, I mean, so if I kind of jump right back to that time, I had 10 years in the treasury, start of my career, one of my roles was involved in transport strategy and anything like that. And I don't know if you've ever been to London and traveled on the Elizabeth Line, but it's amazing. It's cathedrals under the ground and it just changes the way you can get across the city. Maybe 30 years ago, we were looking at the business cases and the paperwork of that and the way transport economics worked. Dissect what was going to happen didn't show that as a good project, and that's because the scale of the benefits from it and the fact that you get all of these extra spillover effects weren't really featuring and that should make that really Kind of I was involved in changing the way the rules worked so that something that that case could go through that really kind of shaped my thinking about you've got to be really clear about what you're buying to understand where the value is going to be and how can you actually make that happen. One of the first things I did when I came to Wales was take over the education funding system and the way in which we did investment for new school buildings was very distributed. So we that local authorities had an allocation of money but challenges that they had in terms of rebuilding and was not really happening. So over a period of years I kind of partnered with local government to create the, what was then the 21st Century Schools program. It's still going, it's got a new name, it's now the Communities for Learning. But, you know, so 15 years or so later we're still doing that program approach where we brought together all of the funding, set together with the partners to design what they needed and did a long term investment plan. So there's a 10 year planning horizon in that scheme with a real kind of opportunity and appetite to rebuild every school in Wales because of the way that designed. And the other one, if I'll mention is I was on comments to Bridge end councillors corporate director and we had a public private partnership with a social enterprise called Halo to run all the leisure services and that was a contract that was award long term arrangements. But actually within that the council was paying more money than they needed to. So I renegotiated the contract and changed the way the finances worked in that and saved the council about 3,4 million pounds over every year. So there's a kind of a 30 million pound benefit there for the council just by reimagining the contract. So the possibility really, you know. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, you've really illustrated very effectively there with those three case studies, really significant projects, just the impact that you can have. And particularly, I suppose not everybody will understand that because people perhaps outside government will see procurement as buying goods or services. But I think effectively you've led us onto that key thought about how much of a broader role really procurement can play in delivering public outcomes in Wales. You spoke about a project there saving money, you spoke about schools. Is there anything you'd like to expand around that thought? Well, I think at the heart of procurement is you get what you buy and it's what you ask for in those contract negotiations in those great markets that creates that possibility. It also locks in public services for the time that they Sign that contract in the diving because. So getting it right of what it is you need to go to market for, understanding suppliers, understanding that what they can offer and how they can enhance those services. And when it's in operation, how you effectively oversee and partner with them for those contracts is how you create value. And if you get. You miss out any of those steps, if you just buy what you used to have or you don't think about it and you just miss lots of opportunities. Yeah. That's really interesting what you say about getting it right in order to capitalise on all of the opportunities available. In terms of leading procurement for Welsh government, what are the competing priorities, then, that you're trying to balance? Because there must be, you know, a bit of a tightrope sometimes that you do have to walk. Yeah. So my first priority coming into this role was to build the team to kind of reconfigure our own internal budgets and actually build extra capacity so that we can do the task ahead and move forward to take advantage of the alignment across the, you know, the categories, so that we get more specialism work in there. But I think you're balancing the day to day procurement delivery. You know, we are the delivery function for Welsh Government's purchasing, that's a billion or billion and a half of spend. But we oversee the policy and legislation for all of Wales. And I think every day we're balancing that ongoing delivery, try and get good service to our customers, make sure the processes work efficiently. And what a change agenda. We're basically a transformation agenda across all the processes, the systems we use, the partnering with public bodies, skills in the system. So you take the change forward at the pace that you've got the capacity to do it, but you need to make sure the service is delivering every day. Yeah. And in terms of that service is delivering every day at the end of the day for people, isn't it, who are benefiting from those service and being at the heart of it. And I suppose, obviously that's really what it is about. Whether it's always. I mean, it'd be interesting to know, is that what is in your mind the end user, effectively? Because sometimes some of our guests have spoken about, you can feel in procurement a little bit removed from that end user, but depending on the actual area that you're working in, particularly leaders in the health service have spoken to us about how they always have, in their mind, ultimately the patients, because procurement really can sort of support so many different priorities. And in terms of Welsh government priorities, bringing it back to Your role, perhaps economic development, sustainability, community benefit, ultimately. How do you see procurement as supporting all of those aims? We absolutely see what we do connected to things happening in the real world, you know, so I still get that connection when I, when I do go to London and travel on that Elizabeth line. I think that was part of making this possible. Or, you know, you go, go past the school and you think that building happened in part because I was able to align this happening. So you do get a real connection. I think the joy of it is that it's involved in just all aspects of public services and within that you can just buy so much more than specific service or good in front of you. You can, as you're spending that money, do it in a way which is creating jobs, lowering carbon emissions, creating a fairer economy as you're doing it. And there's a balancing act as you're doing those things. But it's in that design of the procurements that makes those things possible. Yeah, absolutely. Well, just perhaps taking a slightly different tack and turn to, to look really at the changes that have happened in the UK public sector for procurement. You know, we've certainly covered the Procurement act quite a bit on the podcast. We've heard from people from the Cabinet Office, in fact, who've been involved in that legislation. But be interesting to hear from your perspective, you know, what you see as the real opportunities behind these reforms for organisations here in Wales. I think the new legislation, so the Procurement act, but also the Social Partnership Public Procurement act in Wales, really invigorates the potential for that and place duties on public bodies to up their game in the sense of using their money. And I think that's a really exciting kind of position that actually have more contracting authorities more regularly gearing up to do those things. I think the things like the transparency reporting, where public sector needs to kind of plan and announce what it is intending to issue to the market, is incredibly powerful, both in sense of giving that signaling so that people can be out there deciding whether they want to pitch for those pieces of work, but also within public bodies. The act of doing that planning for those transparency reports is your forward pipeline. And actually for many organizations, being able to do that is increasing their need for long term forward planning. And that is at the heart of creating the possibility of change using procurement. Yeah. And what's your take? I'd be interested to know in how you think procurement teams across the public sector are taking these changes on board. Do you think they underestimate the scale of the change? I mean, still sort of quite early days, I suppose, I think. Well, different teams are in different places, but when I go across Wales and meet people, I get a real sense of excitement and alignment from procurement specialists right across the public sector about what we can do and the possibilities of this. Sometimes people are slightly daunted about system changes or kind of new reporting. I think the bigger challenge is not within anyone in the procurement profession, it's these legal duties are placed on those organizations and it's the senior leadership of those organizations that's a bit of a journey to go on to understand their new obligations under this act and the fact that they need to engage with their procurement teams to help them make those kind of meet those commitments. Yeah. One of the changes that's been highlighted by a number of our guests, the opportunities really for SMEs to access opportunities under the new legislation across the UK there as well. You know, are there practical steps that you're taking that will enable Welsh SMEs really to make the most of these opportunities? We think about that a lot. And thinking about it in terms of supplier awareness, making sure that they are done, there's some really good work that's happening in quite a few areas of Wales to engage with their local economy, to make them aware of public sector spending and also just the practicality issues of how do you register with South Wales, how do you actually get yourself addition where you get the notices? So you can see that it also factors in our thinking when we're designing larger term large scale contracts. I mean, how do you kind of. You can create lots within that that actually are more amenable to small providers. You can work with your team on large providers to understand how they're going to work to their support supply chain and put obligations in them to do that. There's interesting developments in legislation. We don't have powers in Wales yet, but in England there are legal powers that procurements could be run at just a local authority footprint within a certain scale. So we're looking at things like that. One of the most exciting parts of this trial is going to procurex and meeting all of the suppliers and the. There's so much energy and talent that's there and actually we've tended to now have a micro and SME corner and some of the most interesting ideas, the most exciting developments of people selling into the public sector you can find there. So I get a lot of energy from seeing that. Yeah. And some really, I think good practice and experience being shared across Wales. I certainly, in my Involvement, you know, I've seen people who are really sharing what they know, passing that information on so that other people can really well take the benefit of that and I guess, you know, get active in that area as well. So that's always really good to see and it's always great to be energized, isn't it, at an expo and when you're around like minded people. Let's look at digital transformation now. You know, it's another really key area and you know, it can be changing the way that procurement team and teams are operating quite significantly. It'd be great to get your thoughts on, you know, where you see the opportunities there. What really what the biggest difference I suppose that digital transformation can make in terms of public sector procurement teams as well. Yeah, I mean, I mean throughout my career in different ways, particularly when I was in the private sector, the possibility of applying digital investment as a lever for change was really important. The common learning in all of that is you can't take digital transformation digital systems and put them on the old way of working. That's just an expensive old system. So you need to kind of get into the nuts and bolts of your processes, your policies to apply these tools so that you can make things work quicker and free up people's time to do more of the value added activities. I think digital transformation and procurement has a massive potential to accelerate the way in which we operate the processes, to get more rapidly consistent kind of analysis for tenders and kind of specifications. We're doing a lot of thinking about how could we use AI tools in that space. Across all of this there's a kind of alignment of the distance systems that we have and actually who's got what and what's available to. But I think ultimately what we do is trying to make the whole thing work smoother, easier to use quicker. Also within clearance we have a vast array of really interesting data about suppliers, about spend trends, about kind of contracts and to really make sure that we're getting best use of that, that we actually feeding that into strategic decision making and increasing the influence of procurement in the way organizations achieve things. So I think digital transformation is going to really help us create value for aos. And really just a couple of things to pick up from what you were talking about there. You know, digital transformation change of any way, it sometimes involves culture change as well. It can involve taking teams with you can't, can't it? And particularly when you're a leader at a high level procurement also we know, you know, can have that Strategic role, which you were talking about and earlier, how do you, how do you build that culture, really, so that procurement feels confident, perhaps in being in that strategic role, that people feel confident, that teams do feel, you know, empowered at that level as well. I think one of the key things in this is making sure you got good commercial governance approaches so that the quality of the data is feeding into decision making. That we have influence with senior partners across our organizations, that we're able to kind of sit down with them, you know, Permanent Secretaries and Chief executives and say, these are your big commercial opportunities and risks coming up that we get make sure that we're procurement people at the top table having those conversations. Because every time the public sector spends money, signs a contract, it's locking itself into a delivery model and a spending commitment. And procurement colleagues are there to help those organizations make the best choices and get the best value of that spend. And actually having examples of that, where you're creating jobs, where you're saving money, where you're taking carbon out of the system and possibly doing all of those things at the same time, which you do see sometimes in contracts, then we create that culture and that momentum to actually have that influence. Yeah, having procurement at the top table, it's certainly a key message and a really powerful message to put forward. And also that we have heard consistently from a number of our guests here who are so passionate about that. And I think, really, you explain why that is so important. If you're looking ahead now to the next five years, then, Simon, in terms of the public procurement sector in Wales, what do you see as the biggest challenges? It's always difficult, forward looking. Things change literally daily, don't they? Monthly. But five years down the line, what do you think the challenges are that procurement leaders are going to be facing? I tend to think about these kind of questions more in terms of opportunities and challenges, as a different way of thinking about it. In the next five years, we'll have been at the other side of a Senna's term. The Welsh public sector will have spent over £50 billion on commercial activity. And collectively, we in procurement system have an opportunity to create value for Wales. With that £50 billion to spend, to get our organizations to spend it wisely, the number of jobs that could be created, the amount of sustainable solutions that can be come through, the amount of innovation in private sector that can be fostered with that level of money and just creating that social value. We don't know as we go into the next election what the balance of priorities is going to be for the use of public money. But it is a strategic lever that achieves those things and we have the legislative basis in place, we have the professionals in place and we have the influence on that spend to achieve those things. So that together with shared ambition partners means we will create massive value for Wales and just taking it a bit wider in terms of procurement in the public sector. Skills and mindset for going forward. Bearing in mind we have so many listeners from all over the country to the podcast, which is fantastic and multi generational. Some people perhaps thinking of their procurement journey or their next step in it. So it'd be really, I think great for them to hear from you. In terms of procurement professionals working in the public sector today, what are the skills that are going to be essential going forward? What are the mindset shifts that they may have to have which could perhaps even help prepare them for their next step? I think cubic professionals have a really strong commonality which is a passion for achieving value and ensuring that kind of proper processes are taken forward. Where that real value creation comes, comes through influence and negotiation. So being able to kind of work with your partners, your buyers, to change what they are imagining, what they're thinking of taking to market, influencing them to think about these issues earlier. So the window or opportunity is still there to negotiate with the suppliers on what they could offer and to get into the space of contract management. So actually once those contracts have been contracted place, nothing happens unless they're actually properly managed. Yeah, really, really good advice there. Thank you so much for that one. I know that'll be really valuable to people. Procurement can often be seen as something that happens, you know, behind closed doors. It's one of those things that's not really always in the spotlight, which is something that we trying to achieve with this podcast series. But in terms of perhaps the perception of procurement wider and certainly amongst the public, is there anything that you would like to change about that, do you feel? Because this is always a great opportunity to fly the flag for the sector, but I suppose getting those key messages across, is there one thing that you'd like to change about the way that procurement is perceived? Procurement's where the magic happens. I think it is that moment of opportunity where you haven't yet signed a contract, you haven't decided what you're going to buy. You are this huge possibility of the things you can achieve with that level of investment. And to not just buy the thing that you think you want, you need tomorrow. But how many jobs can you influence with that? How much what's your contribution to Net zero with that? What can you do to boost social value as you spend money in public sector? So there's a huge privilege to be at that space before the decisions are taken to influence what goes to market. So procurement's where the magic happens. Well, I love that. That's a fantastic sound bite. Great key headline, Simon, and great to understand where you're coming from with it as well. It really brings us towards the end of the podcast. I think we've covered a lot of ground and had some great, great key thoughts from you. You've given us some brilliant insight. We do ask each of our guests the final question is the same each time, because as I mentioned, we're really trying to showcase the profession, showcase the sector, you know, understanding that there are challenges, like with, with so many different industries now and professions around recruitment, around retention. So you said procurement is where the magic happens, which I think gives us a great insight to how you see procurement and what you enjoy about your job already. But can you just give us a little bit more detail in terms of, you know, why are you happy that you did go into procurement as a career, that this is where you've landed, that this is where you have ended up? Why is it so important to you? I kind of see my job as, as looking to help the whole system of Wales maximize the value of that £50 billion in the next four years. And we have everything in place to do that. We work across all of the aspects of public sector, bringing people together so that we can understand best practice and share that, that we can find opportunities to do things together and, you know, get that scale benefits, those aggregations, where that's due and how we can achieve those broader goals and get that influence with so achieving public value across all areas and saving money and boosting economic impact and helping decarbonize the supply chain. Well, Simon, thank you so much for joining us today. I know you are hugely busy with masses on your agenda, so we really appreciate you joining the Parent Procurement Podcast. It's been fantastic to hear your insight. Thank you for sharing some of your experiences with us. And I think we really have had that sense for you about delivering value for people here in Wales and there's clearly a huge amount happening in this space. So thanks so much for joining us today. Hope you've enjoyed it too. And to all of our listeners, if you've enjoyed this episode, please don't forget that we have many more episodes of powering Procurement. So please follow us and don't forget to share with your colleagues in the procurement profession as well. But for now, that's all from us. We'll be back with another episode soon that wraps up this episode of Powering Procurement. We hope you enjoyed that as much as we did. Visit our website@atomis.co.uk or follow us on LinkedIn to continue the conversation. Remember to subscribe on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you choose to listen. Thanks for joining us and see you next time on Powering Procurement.