From Steel to Social Value - A Procurement Leader’s Journey with Lorraine Sawyer

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's having, uh, an honest and open conversation and a constant dialogue with your suppliers to make sure that you both understand each other's challenges. And I do think good supplier relationship management is two way. We both need to hold each other to account. I've seen countless times of when there is an issue, people are looking at supplier bases for the problem. Why is something not happening in the way that we want it to? But in my experience, the majority of the time, you know, there are issues on both sides. And I think you need to be able to recognise what we as a client do well and not so well, as well as what suppliers and contractors do well or not so well. And that's where the open, honest conversations come in. And actually, if you sit down and say, what's the root of this problem? Sometimes the root of the problem is, you know, your own organization, not necessarily the supplier. And we're not giving them the best environment to succeed.

Speaker B: The Powering Procurement podcast is brought to you by Atomis source to contract software designed to save you time and money. Hello and welcome to Powering Procurement, a podcast by Atomis, where we unpack the world of procurement and supply chain management with the help of industry leaders. I'm your host, Sian Lloyd and this is our resident expert, Gareth burch.

Speaker C: Hi. After 20 years in procurement, I may be billed as an expert, but believe me, I'm here to learn too.

Speaker B: Each episode together with our expert guests, we'll dive into specific challenges and opportunities facing the procurement industry today.

Speaker C: And, um, we'll explore easy wins and longer term strategies to help you rise to the challenge of driving value through your work while showcasing the power of procurement.

Speaker B: So let's get going. Hello everyone and welcome back to Powering Procurement. Today's guest is someone who's built a procurement career with real intent and depth. Lorraine Sawyer studied business studies specializing in procurement at Liverpool John Moore's University. Choosing the profession deliberately from the very start, something that's still relatively rare in the procurement industry. She began her career as an IT procurement graduate before spending more than a decade at Tata Steel, where she progressed to Procurement Manager, followed by three years as Procurement Director at uh, British Steel. Lorraine then made the move into the housing sector, spending almost four years at Home Group and three years at Anchor before joining Orbit Housing in December 2025 as procurement director. So with experience spanning heavy industry and housing and a career shaped by both commercial rigor and public service values, Lorraine really does bring a unique and thoughtful perspective on what modern procurement leadership is really like. And really all about. So very welcome to the podcast, Lorraine.

Speaker A: Thank you, Sian. Nice to be here.

Speaker B: Really good to meet you and very much looking forward to our conversation because you've got so much great experience to share with us. Uh, but I'd like to start, as we do really with all our guests, to hear a little bit about your procurement journey. And you actually chose procurement as a profession to specialise in it from the very start, which, as I said, is still regarded as relatively rare, I suppose. Well, certainly from the guests we've had on the podcast series. So it'd be great to hear about why you wanted to choose that as a pathway for you.

Speaker A: Yeah, no problem. So for me, procurement's always been one of the kind of functions where you can get involved with, um, you know, everyone in the business. You really do touch all parts of the business and that's been really interesting. Um, when I actually first chose, um, procurement when I went to university, it was because, funny story really, but, um, I used to watch Friends. I don't know if you know, Friends, Uh, Rachel Green was a fashion buyer and I remember being kind of 15, 16, thinking, wow, that sounds really, really interesting. And so when I went to do my A levels and I did business studies, it was one of the areas that I always kind of had in the back of my mind is, you know, I'd love to be a buyer and what did that entail? So I did a bit more kind of research into that. Um, and when I went to university I had a really fantastic opportunity to specialize in, in any of the different areas. So you could specialize in kind of marketing, hr, procurement, all the different fun. And for me, procurement was the thing that had always stood, um, out as being, as being most interesting to me, um, just because of that aspect of, you know, commercial, but also the opportunity to work at all areas of the business. So, yeah, I've been, um, I've been in procurement ever since.

Speaker B: That's fantastic. And it's really interesting to hear about the cultural references, isn't it? I remember, uh, sometime before being very influenced by LA Law. That was a sort of series that was back then, before Friends actually influenced me thinking that I wanted to become a corporate lawyer. It's great that you've taken that on and made such a success of it as well. Um, just at this stage, I suppose, in finding out a little bit more about you, it would be lovely to hear about your role at, ah, orbit. So December 2025. So I guess still relatively quite new in that particular Role, but obviously not too, um, the housing sector. Tell us a bit about Orbit to start off with and I guess what the procurement, your sort of function looks like within the housing association.

Speaker A: Yeah, so, um, obviously Orbit's, uh, a, ah, big housing association in terms of, um, size and scale. It's kind of the uh, south of England and the Midlands. Um, and for me, in terms of the procurement team, um, it's kind of split into three areas. So we have sort of procurement excellence who deal with all the sort of systems, processes, policies, area. Then we have development procurement, which is you kind of new build homes, which is quite specialist. And then we have uh, sort of procurement delivery. So that is, you know, all of your services, goods, works and property contracts, that sort of thing. Um, and I've been with Orbit, like you say, only, um, you know, since December, so it is still fairly new. But in terms of the housing associations, they are quite similar in terms of the challenges. The size and scale, scale, the types of contracts, the supply base, it's all very, very similar. So it's quite familiar to me, having worked previously at Anchor and at Home Group. Um, yeah, and it's a great challenge. There's a lot to do, um, within Orbit, I think, within the housing sector as a whole in terms of procurement and how we work with suppliers and how we deliver good services to our customers. So, um, big challenge, but, uh, one that I'm quite familiar with and talking

Speaker B: about challenges, you see, uh, prior to, uh, going into housing, you're working in the steel industry. And I guess, you know, on the face of it, that would seem as sort of a stark contrast really. Um, a very different sector. Certainly, you know, were there particularly different challenges working within that sector, would you say?

Speaker A: There's definitely different challenges, yeah. I mean the steel industry as a whole is well publicised that it's a very struggling, um, sector in terms of, you know, can it be profitable? With all the challenges around raw materials and energy costs and having, um, worked in still for a very long time, I've kind of really seen that challenge and that struggle. Um, and it's a very sort of heavy industry. Um, and the focus there from a procurement perspective is very much about, you know, security of materials and making sure you've got what you need when you need it. Um, and because of the fact it's a real sort of struggling sector in terms of profitability and, you know, just survival more than anything, um, it's really heavy focus on kind of negotiation price. Um, and it's quite different to housing because Housing tends to be more about customer focus and much more than just just price. But from, um, from Tata Steel and then for British Steel, it was very much sort of survival mode. So you have to be quite resilient. Um, it's a very kind of tough organization, a tough sector to be in, but one that I absolutely loved because, you know, it wasn't an everyday challenge. Um, and I think, you know, you either struggle with that environment or you thrive in it. And I was very lucky to thrive in it. But pleased to move into housing and have a really different experience.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And great to hear about that, especially, you know, for other leaders, um, and aspiring leaders who'll be listening to the podcast as well, because it's always really important to, you know, acknowledge what those challenges are, but then, um, to find those solutions. So, so thank you for that. You said, obviously you're in housing now and I think what this must be your. About your third senior leadership role in housing. So you obviously love it. You know, what keeps you passionate about this sector?

Speaker A: Uh, I think it's the social purpose in housing that was one of the big things that I loved when I, when I moved from Steel because obviously I'd been there for a very long time when I moved into housing. It's seeing the impact of what you're doing on residents, customers lives and seeing that wider social purpose of what, you know, what the organisation stands for. So for me that was something that I always wanted to do. I wanted to have a role and a job that had that social purpose. M Because within procurement then you feel like if you're saving money, you're actually impacting residents lives or providing them great services or managing to reduce their energy costs, those kind of things. Real impact on people. Um, and I felt it particularly at Anchor as well because um, it was the, you know, over 55s and a lot of um, elderly people who may have had additional needs and just seeing the impact of what you were doing every day and really having to consider those, uh, those residents and customers was a real different challenge, but one that I really enjoyed. So, yeah, housing, um, is very different, uh, to Steel, but that uh, social purpose and that um, you know, social value and all the, all of the wider kind of sustainability aspects and the real impact on the communities that we serve is really rewarding.

Speaker B: It's really interesting, um, you're saying that because something that's come through, you know, through the podcast series of power and procurement is not everybody within the procurement industry actually, um, is so connected, I suppose, to the public, or perhaps even seeing the value to the public at the end of the day from, you know, what their decisions can deliver. So it's really interesting to hear. You know, you obviously feel that connection.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think, you know, within housing, you've got an obligation to consider residents, um, because it's part of the regulations that you need to be able to consider residents. But for me it's about the authenticity of actually seeing the residents, meeting them, hearing the impact of what you do. And, you know, they're fantastic because they don't, they don't hold anything back. They tell you exactly what they think. And working with lots of residents at my time, um, at Anchor, um, and you starting to do that now with Orbit, um, you know, you hear firsthand the impact of what you're doing and yeah, really feel the impact of, uh, of residents. So it's not just about the obligation, you know, that's what we have to do, actually. It's about really listening, taking their feedback on board and making adjustments wherever you can to support them. And that's, um, one of the best parts of the role.

Speaker B: And it is really an interesting sector as well, isn't it, that you're in the housing association sector because I suppose you're in that intersection between public service, but commercial discipline as well. I mean, how do you balance those sort of two worlds almost?

Speaker A: Yes, it's a challenge because obviously we're heavily regulated, so we have to be compliant with the regulations and that has to, you know, that has to be the first thing that we do. But because of the impact on residents, the commerciality is really important. We need to be able to demonstrate real value for money and that we, you know, we're not just following a process. We're looking for the right commercial outcome. So for me it's about trying to get as in, as involved in, um, what the goods and services of the works are that we're buying as early as possible so that we can impact and influence what that end service looks like. So looking for how do we utilize services differently, how do we use new technologies to deliver a better service at a reduced cost? So it's thinking about the, the wider lifecycle cost than just maybe the price elements being quite important. But yeah, I think it is a challenge because I think a lot of people that work in regulated environments focus really solely on the compliance aspect and making sure that they're following those regulations. But the commercial aspect as well as the social purpose, um, needs to sort of work hand in hand with the regulations. So you need to make sure, you know, as early as possible that you have that engagement and that influence and then I think you can get a result that balances both. Um, but it's definitely something that I think as a sector we find that quite challenging.

Speaker B: M And you mentioned cost pressures. I mean, obviously they'd be expected in the housing section, I suppose, around maintenance and repair and that side of the business as well, for housing associations. I mean, are there any other. Yeah, less visible, um, challenges that you could perhaps expand on a little bit that I'm sure our listeners would be really interested in knowing about what you're dealing with right now? Really?

Speaker A: Yeah. So I think that just a changing regulatory environment within housing is a. Is a constant challenge. So we've had, for all the right reasons, you know, regulations are, ah, changing. So things like, um, the introduction of AWABS law for damper mould and, you know, the building safety regulations and all the requirements around that. There's, um, a new consumer standard, so consumer regulations that we haven't had, um, previously in the same way. And so we need to, as a sector, think about all of those changing regulations and the cost pressures that come with that, as well as obviously the reason that they are there, which is to keep residents and customers safe, um, you know, and give them a good place to live, which is what we all want at the end of the day. But when there are those changing regulations, contracts that you've put in place maybe a couple of years ago might not be as effective as they, um, were intended to be because things have changed during the life of that contract. So we need to, again, as procurement, think about how do we make adjustments to those contracts to take into consideration the change in regulations? How do we demonstrate that we are meeting the consumer standards and that we are listening to our residents and that we are taking that feedback and shaping future services. Um, so there's quite a lot there. And obviously we're. Because we're regulated as well by the Procurement act, we've got all of that to think about as well, because that's been some significant change in the last year or so. Um, and so all of those things coupled together mean that things are changing all the time and you have to be able to respond to those changes, adapt your style, be as flexible as possible. And sometimes that's, um, not always easy in a heavily regulated environment because you feel like you've got to follow some quite strict processes and you do. Um, but you do need to be able to flex and adapt to when things Change and also does our supply base. And I think that's the challenge for them as well, because we're constantly changing and making our requirements more stringent. And so the supply base is also needing to respond to that because they're needing to provide that enhanced level of service. Um, things need to be done quicker, things need to be done slightly differently. And, um, there's a real pressure on the supply base as well. And I think we need to recognise that and work with the supply base to deliver a great outcome for our residents.

Speaker B: Yeah, really interesting to hear what you're talking about there, the regulation and the specific one to your sector. And of course, we've covered quite a lot about the Procurement act as part of this podcast series, with it being very relevant to the current timing. Um, interesting what you said there about suppliers as well, and obviously supply chain management. So important, what does good supplier relationship, um, management look like to you and particularly as a leader?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's having an honest and open conversation and a constant dialogue with your suppliers to make sure that, you know, you both understand each other's challenges. And I do think good supply relationship management is two way. We both need to hold each other to account. I've seen countless times of, you know, when there is an issue, people are looking at the supplier bases for the problem. You know, why is something not happening in the way that we want it to? But in my experience, the majority of the time, you know, there are issues on both sides. And I think you need to be able to recognize what we, as a client do well and not so well, as well as what suppliers and contractors do well or not so well. And that's where the open, honest conversations come in. And actually, if you sit down and say, what's the root of this problem? You know, sometimes the root of the problem is, you know, your own organisation, not necessarily the supplier, and we're not giving them the best, um, environment to succeed. Great. Supplier relationship management is sitting down, having those honest conversations and recognizing where, um, things can improve from both sides. And that's when you get that, uh, kind of continuous improvement scenario where both sides are constantly thinking about, how do we make this better? And I think when you're thinking about the we, um, together, rather than, you know, the two different parties, then you get a really good, A really good outcome. There's always going to be challenges, there's always going to be the, you know, the difficult times where you have to have really difficult conversations. But I think if you've built up that trust, um, and that kind, you know, you're always acting with integrity. Then I think, you know, people recognise that at times when you're having a difficult conversation, it's because it's needed. It's not, you know, it's not just. That's the way that we are. So for me it's all about partnerships and you know, working together collaboratively to get the best outcome.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Great insight there. And very much strikingly, you know, collaboration, partnership, such key, um, terms and values as well to be um, working by in terms of social value, particularly, um, we know, you know, there's been changes around that in the Procurement act as well, hasn't there? Obviously, social value very much key to your sector. Uh, how important it is having those conversations with the suppliers. Particularly perhaps, you know, if there is something that needs to be addressed in terms of how they're picking on social value and understanding that need. I mean, it'd be great to have a look. But of insight from you in terms of how you feel that suppliers do take on the values around social impact, around social value. Are you seeing more understanding around that?

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Um, I think because now social value can have such a big impact on um, suppliers and contractors ability to win tenders, because we're taking that into consideration now. Whereas previously it would have been more on kind of just price and quality score. Because social value is so important. I think that's where, you know, it's moved on from just something that you tick a box to, to something that you actually need to demonstrate the real, the real value. Um, and I've seen some fantastic examples over the last few years in housing where um, you know, suppliers are working on really big um, kind of initiatives to support the local community. And that could be apprenticeship. So it could be um, you know, various, various different things really. Uh, jobs for residents in some cases, um, where you know, there might be high unemployment. Actually getting residents from the housing association into employment with our contracts and partners is a big win, win for everyone. Um, and it is m. Much more than um, you know, doing a, um, communal green space, for example. Those are the kind of social value projects that have happened for a long time within housing and they're fantastic and they're absolutely needed. Um, but I think what we're seeing now in supply basis and moving much more into the wider, um, you know, um, social value in relation to the full community. So that could be, you know, um, equality, diversity and inclusion. It could be sustainability and um, you know, zero waste to landfill and how do we reduce our carbon footprint. Um, but it can also be, you know, real residential facing services where actually they're just going in and supporting residents on digital inclusion and things like that. And they're really fantastic ideas, um, and suggestions. I do think as a housing sector we can always do more on social value because it needs to be not just at the point where you're setting up your contracts and you're going through the tender process, but through proper life cycle management. So the whole um, duration of a contract, social value becomes something that you're talking about, you know, at monthly call groups or monthly um, management meetings. So that it's always on the agenda and we're always thinking about what can, what more can we do and how do we deliver that wider social benefit. So uh, I do think it's something that is, you know, really positive, but there's always room to do more. Um, but you know, you do also need to take into consideration that everything comes at a cost. And from a resident perspective we need to take, you know, we need to be cognizant of the fact that residents are paying for the services and putting too much value on, on social value if it comes at, you know, additional cost to residents is, is not always what they would, what they would want. So I do think there's that balance of how do we, you know, get as, as much social value as we can for, for the cost and for the, the total um, value of the contract. And I think that's something that, you know, we can all work on in the future.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's really, really interesting. Um, just changing. Well, you mentioned digital inclusion actually there, but I would say that many of our guests have spoken about digital transformation and um, how important technology can be. So it would be great to get your thoughts around that. You know, how you see the role of technology in enabling better procurement outcomes.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I think technology has got a huge part to play in both procurement and service delivery. Um, so from a procurement perspective, good technology means that you can have good data. It means that you can be efficient in your processes and procedures. And that's one of the big shifts I think that we've seen in the last few years with some of the sort of procurement technology. It means, you know, you're not needing to spend lots of time, um, doing the same activity m, you know, multiple times through a process. Because actually you can streamline that with the use of technology, um, particularly things like the Procurement act and the notices that need to be issued. You know, if you've got good technology from A procurement perspective that allows all of that stuff to happen and it's, you know, it's pushing things out um, at the right time. All of that just gives you more time to do the kind of value added work. Um, I think technology in terms of how services um, are delivered to customers as well makes a big difference. And that's something that we as procurement, um, people need to think about. The impact of the technology on the service delivery. How do we ensure that we're giving the best service to residents. A lot of that comes from new innovations and new technology and making sure that we know what's on, going, coming, what's available. Um, and that as and when it is available, we're understanding the cost impact and making sure that we can deliver that for residents. So whether that be, you know, through repairs and maintenance, having good diagnostics and a really smooth repairs journey, that can have a huge impact on residents. And technology plays a big part in that and has, you know, there's been some huge advances in technology in the delivery of repairs and maintenance over the last few years and housing systems. So it's definitely got a big part, part to play. And I think from a procurement perspective it's fantastic that it gives us the opportunity to be more efficient as procurement teams. Actually for me the bigger impact is how um, the services are then delivered in an innovative way for customers.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective and I suppose I hadn't thought of it in that way in terms of the technology, how it can impact customers in your sector. It can be taking those customers with you on that journey with the use of technology. But also perhaps if you're implementing new technology or procurement software, it's taking teams as well, perhaps sometimes within the organization with you as well, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, um, we're actually going through it now at orbit, putting in some new um, procurement systems and uh, technology. And it's about making sure that the team can um, you know, be on that journey and can go through the proper training and you know, we, we do things like train the trainer and get into kind of super users and just making sure that people understand, you know, what that technology is there to do, how to harness the power of it, um, and not, you know, try and replicate what we were previously doing on paper or previously doing in an antiquated system into the new one that you actually, you know, using the technology in the way that it was designed. But yeah, I think the teams look forward to having more efficient ways of doing Things because, um, it does just make our lives easier and it means that we can deliver, um, better outcomes for customers.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. That term, um, super user, it's not one I've heard for a while actually, but, yeah, definitely been on my agenda over the years as well. Um, now leading a procurement team, we know, you know, it can be complex, it can be challenging, it can also be hugely rewarding. And, you know, your passion and really vision has come through already in this, you know, quite short conversation. But what would you say, um, you think your approach to leadership is what inspires you, I suppose, as well as a leader?

Speaker A: Yes. Um, I mean, my approach to leadership is always open and honest conversations. It's providing clear direction for people. Um, and just having that kind of authenticity is really important to me so that the team know that they can come to me for anything. Um, you know, my, my motto with the team is no surprises. I don't, you know, they can come to me and tell me when things are going great, but they can also come and tell me when things are not going well. And I would rather that, that, you know, we can work through things together than, and then be surprised by something when it's, when it's kind of gone wrong. So, yeah, my approach to the team is always trying to be as, as clear and open, um, as possible. Uh, I think what I value from, from kind of leadership is, is exactly that as well. It's, it's clear feedback and it's, um, you know, clear direction as well, so that we all know that we're, we're working towards the same goal. So obviously, having taken on a new team at Orbit, the key thing for me is that we're all working together now. Things can be quite siloed sometimes. You can get bogged down in your own area and you really focus on, this is my challenge and this is what I need to deliver. But the power in the collective is so much more, um, than individuals. And I think that's where I always try and bring the team together, have them have those open conversations that peer to peer challenge and support is really important. So, um, you know, if someone's struggling with something, the best thing that I can do is, you know, put a few people together and let's talk about it, rather than trying to kind of answer a question and come up with a solution as an individual. So, yeah, um, it's all about collaboration for me and, um, creating an environment where people are not afraid to speak up and happy to have that open conversation and challenge just means that it's a nicer place to work as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And um, you said at the beginning of our conversation obviously that you're quite recent to this position now at Orbit. So if I was asking you just to look ahead now over this year, and I know the year will fly, certainly 2025 did. What would a successful um, year for you in procurement at Orbit look like? So we're, you know, 12 months down the line.

Speaker A: Yes, I think for me, if we can continue to raise the perception of procurement within the organization, that that's a success. So, you know, I want to be, I want procurement to be a really valued partner for everything. So, you know, it look success for me looks like, you know, early involvement, lots of engagement, you know, collaborative discussions, the ability to influence and um, you know, have a, have an input in the strategy of the business. Because I think we've got a really important part to play. So that kind of raising the profile is really important. But also I think it's just about having um, you know, an empowered and motivated team who know what they're doing, what they're there to deliver. They've got some clear objectives and that they're delivering against them. Um, so yeah, those are the key things for me. We've got some big projects as well that are coming up that obviously I want to make sure that they're delivered well and they've got good outcomes. But that's the kind of day to day what I would class as your kind of business as usual activity. So we absolutely need to continue to deliver those projects. But for me, if in a year's time we're in a position where people are coming to us with, and we were thinking about doing this or we want your support in this project, that for me is success because that means we've proven our value, um, and that we're not needing to go out to the organization, they're coming to us and that would be what success looks like.

Speaker B: Well, we wish you all the best. Of course, over the next year, 2026, our final question, really we've sort of drawn to a close and it's absolutely whiz by, I have to say. Uh, we ask all the guests this one because, you know, part of the raison d' etre for the Power and Procurement podcast series is to shine a spotlight on the sector. Uh, like so many different industries, you, uh, know challenges around recruitment, perhaps retention in some cases as well. So for people who might be thinking about embarking on um, a career in procurement, as you did Yourself from days as a student even. Why would you say that you've been happy that you have chosen procurement as your career choice?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, for me it's just been a massive variety of um, work I've been learning constantly. So although I've been in procurement over 20 years, I never feel like I've reached the end of my um, of my learning and development. So if you're looking for a career that's got variety and that is really rewarding, then I think you can't beat procurement. For me, it's allowed me to progress right through my career from joining initially as a graduate to procurement director and kind of getting to the top of my field. I think that's the beauty of procurement. There's so many opportunities. It's a real um, opportunity to work with all the different areas of the business and it can just be an incredibly rewarding career. So I'm definitely pleased that I've stuck with it and, and I wouldn't be still here 20 odd years later if uh, if it wasn't enjoyable. So yeah, I think um, it's a fantastic career and you know, I would encourage more people to look into it early because it is one of those careers where people often fall into it later on. But actually, you know, there's a lot of benefit there of thinking I want to build a career in this, in this area. But it also gives you some great transferable skills, commerciality and you know, leadership influencing skills that um, will allow you to have that flexibility in your career later on if you do want to.

Speaker B: No, that's really good advice and such a positive close to our podcast for the second episode. Lorraine, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us today and sharing so many of your insights really, um, throughout your career and we wish you, of course, ah, the very best now with Orbit, um, we hope. Oh yeah, absolutely. Lovely talking to you. We hope obviously that our audience have enjoyed the conversation as well. I am sure that they will have and I just want to take this opportunity to remind them that they can check out our other episodes in the series. They're going to be available from wherever you listen to your podcast. So that's all for this time and we hope to see you soon.

Speaker C: That wraps up, uh, this episode of Powering Procurement. We hope you enjoyed that as much as we did.

Speaker B: Visit our website@atomis.co.uk or follow us on LinkedIn to continue the conversation.

Speaker C: Remember to subscribe on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcast us or wherever you choose to listen.

Speaker B: Thanks for joining us and see you next time on Power in Procurement.