Authentic Leadership in Times of Change: A Conversation with Colonel Bree Fram

Speaker A: Welcome to Govcom Unfiltered, where your journey through the labyrinth of federal contracting begins. I'm Alexa Choi, your guide and host on this epic adventure. Here, we dive deep, uh, into the heart of government contracting, shedding light on the heroic tales of those who navigate its complex terrain. Our mission, to bring you closer to the action, revealing the critical steps, triumphant victories, and occasional pitfalls that our intrepid adventures face. Your journey into the world of government contracting starts now, and we could not be happier to have you with us. Let's embark on this adventure together.

Speaker B: Thank you for joining us today on this episode of govcom Unfiltered. We are interviewing Colonel Fram. I'm so excited for this conversation. Thank you in advance for sharing your incredible journey with us. Please introduce yourself.

Speaker C: Well, first, thanks for having me. As was mentioned, Colonel Bree Fram in the United States Space Force. It is important to note that I am joining you in my personal capacity on this show, and my views do not necessarily reflect those of the Department of Defense or the United States government. Now, that may become obvious as we go through the conversation. I am at the very end of what will be a 23 year military career with 18 years in the Air Force, five years in the Space Force. But because I no longer meet this administration's standards for military excellence and readiness, I am currently on administrative leave. But I have had an amazing career. It has been so exciting and the honor of my life to wear this nation's flag on my shoulder. I am a rocket scientist by education and have done a host of jobs in engineering and program management from counter drone work, counter IED work, and a vast variety of spacecraft development programs. With time at the Capitol, multiple tours at the Pentagon, wrapping up doing both acquisition policy for the Space Force and then in my final job being the director of requirements integration for the service.

Speaker B: Wow, what a career. Well, first of all, before I go into anywhere else, just let me say thank you for your service. And I mean that wholeheartedly. Coming from a family of marines, jarheads, you know, pretty much semper fi all day. My father, my older brother, my younger brother. So, you know, just thank you for everything you've done for this country thus far and everything that you will do.

Speaker C: Well, I appreciate that. As I said, it has been an incredible adventure. I have loved every moment of my years in the service and the people that I have had the pleasure of working with.

Speaker B: Awesome.

Speaker A: Cool.

Speaker B: I can't wait to jump into it. So let's hop into our first question. So what is a pivotal moment from your early career that really shaped who you are today. Maybe something that's not in your official bio, because I'm sure there's people that are going to be like, googling you now, uh, that you're here.

Speaker C: Well, what you may not see in my bio is why I joined the service. Now there are lots of pivotal moments early in my life, Whether that was being forced almost to watch an episode of Star Trek, which made me want to be an aerospace engineer, to a later injury I suffered while playing a game on the PlayStation in the Dark. And I woke up and I had an eye injury. And it was all of a sudden, well, you can't be an astronaut anymore. But the big one that affected me was after graduating college, I had no intention of military service, despite a long record of heroic service in my family. But I graduated in 2001 and as I was applying for jobs, we were attacked. And September 11th was a life changing moment for me. It was that opportunity in front of me to give back, to be part of something larger, larger than myself, to go and do amazing things in the space realm and take my love of science and technology and serve and protect. And I got to do so many of those things from ending up in Qatar and Iraq just over a year after I was able to get into the service, and then doing missions that kept people safe on the battlefield at multiple times throughout my career. So it was really that huge change of. I didn't expect this, but this is where I ended up. I was thrilled to be part of it and hopefully have, huh, played a, uh, role in making sure those freedoms and opportunities are there for future generations.

Speaker B: So Bri, are you saying in a nutshell that 911 kind of pushed you into joining the service?

Speaker C: Oh, uh, absolutely. It was as straightforward as that. And that it opened my eyes to the fact that freedom is not free and some of us have to take a turn in its defense. And it felt for me like that was my turn. I recognized what my family had done in the past, what both my grandfathers had done in World War II with incredible deeds, and it was my turn.

Speaker B: It really boggles my mind when folks in government contracting or companies that want to break in and they say, you know, we don't do DoD contracting, that's just, it's not what we do. I just, I'm just like, really? Because why would you discriminate that as a citizen service outside of something for Fed Siv or health it or something like it is as needed as it's as important, as critical to life as an American.

Speaker C: Yeah. The government across the board should be about protecting our freedoms, protecting our rights. And it is that defense of those rights that becomes so incredibly important. I don't have to agree with you. No service member is going to say they have to agree with you on everything. But they will defend, literally to their death your ability to say those things or to make those choices about who you associate with, what you say or who you sell your products to. So I'm always in awe of the service members that are willing to sign up for that to protect their fellow citizens.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So were you in the Air Force first and then you went to the Space Force?

Speaker C: The Space Force didn't exist when I served, so the space mission, though the vast majority of it, uh, was. Was within the Air Force. So that's what drew me to the Air Force. Though I will admit, when I was growing up, one of the biggest recruiting commercials on TV was the Army's slogan that said, we do more by 9am than most people do all day. And I was like, well, there's a reason I'm not joining the army because I am not a morning person. And how about we come to the office, we take care of business, we work late if we need to, and when our country really calls, we do that. But get up every day to, you know, do whatever at, ah, PT at 6:00am um, no, thank you.

Speaker B: That's hilarious. Yeah, the. I feel like all the branches, when they get together especially, I love watching them kind of like riff on each other, you know, just because there's just such an opportunity too. Right? Uh, and it's actually hilarious.

Speaker C: You said you had Marines in your background. I will admit the Marines came close because at the same time they were running this amazing ad where a Marine transformed into armor, pulled out his sword and slayed the dragon. I'm like, well, that looks pretty cool. Maybe that one. If I don't work. If the Air Force doesn't work out, maybe the Marines.

Speaker B: Wonderful. Well, let's get into our next question. So looking back at your journey over, you know, the past many years that you've been in service of the country, was that one person that opened an unexpected door? And how has that experience really influenced how you help others today?

Speaker C: Well, for the first 13 years of my career, I had to serve with my shields up. I was protecting my identity because as a trans person, there was no ability for me to serve as myself. Up until 2016. Had I come out prior to that, I would have been immediately terminated from the service for something that had absolutely nothing to do with my ability to serve. But when I was able to come out, when the announcement was made in 2016 that trans people could serve openly, I wasn't fired. Instead, I'm pretty sure I was the first trans person in the DoD offered a job because of it. And it wasn't because I was trans. It had to do with the way I came out. When the Secretary of Defense finished making the announcement that trans people could serve openly, I had a letter that I emailed out to all of my colleagues. And the reaction was one that I didn't expect because I was nervous, wondering, what's my life going to be like, right? And, um, I ran away. I found the gym buried underneath the Pentagon. I went nowhere, faster than I'd ever gone anywhere in my life, on the elliptical machine, thinking, oh, no, what now? Uh, but I got back to my desk, my colleagues walked over. One by one, they shook my hand and said, it's an honor to serve with you. And our relationship only got deeper and better from there. But that letter went further. It turns out the next week we got a new two star general in over the organization. He read my letter and said, I'd like to talk with you about this. So we had a lengthy conversation, and he expressed kind of his history as a former F16 pilot back in the days when gays and lesbians couldn't serve. And he's like, yeah, of course we knew everyone in our squadron who was queer and it didn't matter because they had our backs. Uh, and we all worked together for the same reason. So because of my letter, we had this conversation. And then a day or two later, he asked, would you like to be my executive officer? So for the next year plus, I worked for directly for him. I got to see the service from a strategic planning and budget integration perspective that I wouldn't have from my level in the position that I was currently working. I got to see the whole picture come together, how he operated at that general officer level. And it really opened my horizons. And so when you ask, you know, how does that help me lead now? It enhances my curiosity, it enhances my willingness to engage with people that may not have the same background that I do and where I can offer that same kind of sponsorship and mentorship to take care of and bring along people. One of the biggest challenges we've always had in DOD is our senior officers are not reflective of the population of the United States. We start that way, we don't end up that way because people grow and sponsor and mentor people that look and sound like they do. And that has, uh, an effect that builds and builds on itself. And so for something we're, I believe, going to get into later, we have to actually counter some of that with this active effort to bring others along and make sure that the best and brightest do have the opportunity to get to those higher levels of leadership.

Speaker B: I love this. Let me ask you a little bit of a tactical question. So, uh, you joined the military, uh, during a turbulent time for the country, right? Were you already out in your personal life at that time? Or like, did you go through that discovery process while you were in the military?

Speaker C: Well, I knew I was different, as it were, from a very young age. I was Wonder Woman right alongside my sister for Halloween when I was 3 and 4 years old. But I also knew it was something I had to hide. Society, culture, every TV show you watch said, this is bad, this is wrong. You are the trickster, the liar, the murderer, uh, whatever criminal might be, that was you. And so I had to work through that for a long time to figure out that this is who I am. And if I let society and others expectations define me, I cannot be the best version of myself. And so it took a long time and by the time I began realizing that, then I was up against the military's policy of, um, if you come out, you'll lose. And everything worked for. So to later in my career be out and authentic and to truly reach for my best self was such a gift. And I think that's something that is valuable across the government, across whatever organization we are part of. When people can be their authentic self, they are their best self. Because I said, you know, I worked with shields up, this is taking your shields down. And if I go to a Star Trek analogy, that's like, great, all right, Captain. I don't have to put all that power on the field. I can put that into the relationships with people around me or the task that I have in front of me. And we get better as individuals and as teams when we can do that, right?

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. Wow, this is like so much great information that my brain's like swirling. I'm trying to like pick one question out of like a hundred that are going through my brain. But we'll move on to the next question. So what was an unlikely partnership that you have found along the way that was a, uh, collaboration with an unlikely partner or a breakthrough? And what made you really take that chance?

Speaker C: Well, because of coming out and being engaged in the process that kind of helped fight for trans service. I got interviewed by a sociologist that was looking at some of these issues and the history of. Of gender and sexuality and how that affected the military. And I was like, great. I participated. I did my part. But it was a year or two later that I got an email from him, almost out of the blue, asking, hey, I've got another project that I'm working on. Would you like to talk about? I'm like, sure, I'll hear what you have to say. And he was asking me to be a co editor and a co author with him on a book because he wanted to capture the experiences that members of my community were going through, but not do it from the outside looking in, wanted a partner who was a member of that community. I had never thought of myself as a writer. I had started to do a few things across the course of my military career. But a book, that's a big deal. And I'm so grateful to him for asking, and I'm so glad that I said yes, because not only did it lead to an incredible collection of stories capturing the experiences of transgender members of the military, it led to other opportunities. I now have three books, and I'm working on a four.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: So it kind of sparked something in me. And not just the books, but also papers on leadership and other opportunities to tell stories in a compelling way, to really understand that we can't always just lead with or work solely with data. Because first I've got to convince you to care about something, and then if you care, great. I can hit you with the data and the facts that are out there about why this is a really good idea, how we should implement this, how we should write a proposal to, say, go after a certain aspect of business. But first I need to tell you that's where we should be going and provide that emotional hook. And storytelling is a big part of that.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're speaking my language. I feel like recently, over the last, I don't know, maybe 10 years, things have gotten very capitalistic. I feel like just in life in general, like anywhere you go, everywhere you go, it's about moving faster, buying faster, more things, more technology, you know, and really we need to go back to the basics of storytelling, human connection, authenticity, and the why behind or doing any of this. Why? What's the point? Right.

Speaker C: So, yeah, that why is a question that should be asked and answered in so many more circumstances. And you're right. While we buy so many things, in many cases, we're not asking the question Are we buying the right things? Sometimes it's just someone's wild idea that's like, this is what we need. In government or particularly in the Department of Defense, that can be the musings of a senior general or a civilian. It's like, oh yeah, this might be cool, we maybe should do that. And then all of a sudden the machine that wants to make that person happy because they're the boss goes into work and it ends up translating into a major program that, uh, maybe has value. It probably has value. But is it the right thing? And we need to make sure we're asking that question all along the way. Not just are we building the thing right, but are we building the right thing?

Speaker B: Are we building the right thing? Yeah, I love that. And I always talk about people process technology because you know that people run like their hair's on fire to the technology piece, right past the people piece, right past the process piece, right into the technology. So you can get all the technology that you want, whole stack. And then like, who's gonna do, who's gonna use it and how are they gonna use it? Uh, and like for what? So totally I'm there with you.

Speaker C: Oh, it's all that. And what's the strategy that overarches all of that? What connects it together? Because if you do A, B, C and D, whether it's people, technology, process, and to what end, if you haven't figured that out, you're going to have things going in different directions making no sense. A series of tactics or tactical victories even can be completely meaningless when it's not connected to an intelligent long term strategy.

Speaker B: Great. Wow. I bet your books are amazing and I would love to, uh, know more about where to get them. Are they on Amazon?

Speaker C: You can find all my books on Amazon or On my website, briefram.com two of them are collections of stories. One is on leadership and, um, particular leadership within the queer community.

Speaker B: Oh, I love that. I'm a huge ally, by the way. I mean, having you on my show hopefully shows that I'm a huge ally. But yeah, I definitely love to have you here and these stories are great. So. All right, next question. What are some common misconceptions that folks might have about advancing a government service that you would love to debunk for our listeners? And I think just from hearing what you've said so far, being brave and boldly owning who you are might be some of those.

Speaker C: Well, I definitely think that is a huge component of, uh, people should be willing to be themselves and hopefully they can be so early in their career. When I was at war college, I heard a uh, story from a three star admiral who said, and this was a white man who said, until I got that third star, I felt like I was wearing a heavy cloak around me at all times, protecting who I was. And to think that this is 30 plus years into a career that you can finally be yourself and you finally feel you've reached a point where it's okay, that's a lot of weight to carry around, which I hope people can be themselves from their from the beginning. But it's actually a different misconception that I think is really important to understand and that is the misconception that government service or the military is a meritocracy. Now I, uh, don't want to throw out the idea that it is not in the complete essence of what service is. There is a huge component of are you good at your job and how well can you do it to advance? But if that's all we think about, that is missing out on a huge portion of this. The person who comes in to government service and just says, I'm going to keep my head down, I'm going to do the tasks that are in front of me, whatever that may be, you're missing a huge part of it. So much of it is again about building those relationships with people about, around you. It is understanding that who you know is just as important as what you know in the vast majority of circumstances.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, yeah.

Speaker C: And government service, just like almost any challenge in the commercial world, is all about enabling us to do things collectively that we couldn't do alone. So no matter how good you are, how much of an expert you are, if you're not understanding where you fit in the bigger picture, again, understanding that why that we talked about, you're not going to advance. You're not going to do what? Well, because you're off doing your own thing or you're just sitting there and like, got it. Uh, that person can do that thing and that's it. And they will do that for the rest of their life. And I want to take it even further that even if you do all of those things, you're great at what you do. You have all the merit and you're capable, you've built relationships. Even that may not be enough piping lock circumstances. Did you get that invitation to volunteer for the certain program? Did someone else happen to throw their hat in the ring at the same time you did for a job? And they were just that much better. But if they hadn't, you'd have been the pick. So there's so much that goes into a career that we have to be willing to pivot, to stay flexible, to be ready to move to, to the next opportunity and not be resentful because those things happen. And it's our ability to move on, to not feel bad about missing out on A, B or C, but to keep focusing on what we can control and look for that next opportunity.

Speaker B: This wasn't one of the questions we talked about, but I'm curious your thoughts on networking. So I get a lot of questions on this one because I'm good at it, but I'm good at it because I'm naturally an extrovert and a, um, dot connector anyway. So then I just use my superpowers and make things happen and it's not, like, work for me. Right. But let me ask you this question. And you know, I don't know if the military has, like, classes or teaches people about the importance of building a strong network, building a strong set of mentors, building a strong set of people that you can not just consider like, oh, I'm going to go on LinkedIn when I need a job and then I'm going to fire everything up and then shut it back down and, you know, you know what I'm saying? But how to. What would be your best advice for somebody that's looking to build a strong network for their entire career and also be a part of something like a community? Like, talk to me about that.

Speaker C: Yeah. The military has certainly tried and experimented with lots of programs and lots of training in this, and they often fall apart or are poorly used because it's really directive and you should mentor this person. And it doesn't let kind of that organic piece of it that is often so important to networking that it's almost happenstance where you might find a mentor or a mentor might find you. But I think it needs to be both sides. From an individual perspective. There has to be both that intentional networking, and that's usually the networking we do in service of a goal. Look, I'm trying to build a team. I'm trying to set up a program, or I have something that I know I want to do five years from now, and I want to connect with these people because maybe there might be something, but it can't be completely transactional even when you're doing that intentional piece.

Speaker B: Exactly. Right.

Speaker C: Uh, you have to be able to have a genuine connection with the person. Like, it's not going up and asking, hey, Want to be in my network, there's something else you need to connect with over, even if it is in service of a goal. But I think we all have to be open to that organic piece of it, that unintentional, that just go to a cocktail party or whatever it is, sporting event, and talk with people or m. Friendships, uh, often turn into what may be amazing networking opportunities down the road. So just getting to know people with a genuine curiosity about who they are, what they're interested in, maybe you find a shared interest, a, uh, passion that you'll be able to connect with and then follow up. Don't just be like, hey, I met this great person at a party. Whether it's connecting on social media, connecting via email, texts, whatever, keep in touch. Because 10 years down the road, if you don't do need something from them, it's not, hey, I met you 10 years ago, can we do this thing? It's no. We have a relationship. And yeah, of course I'll do this thing for my friend who I speak with all the time.

Speaker B: Yeah. And one of the things I love to do also is clap for other people publicly. Uh, so I noticed that you do that too on LinkedIn, you know, and people do that with you for you a lot on LinkedIn too. You have a great network of people that know and love you, which is awesome. But I noticed that, like, the more energy you put into lifting up, other people will lift you up and that will enhance. It's like a. It's like a circle that kind of like a flywheel that keeps feeding into itself.

Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. The positivity you put out into the world is far more often than not going to be reflected back to you. And I hope I do act in that way to put out authenticity, joy, support, empathy, and to see that come back is fantastic. But I am also so often amazed, particularly by public servants and what they do for so little recognition for pay that is generally not commensurate with their skills. And they do it because they care. Because whether it's the service member that wants to protect and defend for the future, or it is that civil servant that just wants effective and efficient government services to be provided to people across this nation, all of those things matter and they usually are done because those people care.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I did a webinar this week with the, uh, va. We had three senior contracting officers on the call and we were talking a little bit before we went live, and I was just like, man, these folks are doing dedicated to the mission and they should be. And we all should be. We all should be specifically dedicated to that mission, you know, and so it was just really heartening to hear that their passion. And before we even started, uh, I

Speaker C: felt I had to care from really early in ways I didn't expect when I was a brand new lieutenant working at our research laboratory. And I'm handed this portfolio of programs and the contracts that they represented. And it's like, here, you're responsible for this $9 million. And I'm like, uh, wait. Because if I had gotten a job as an engineer outside of this, I'd have been working on a very specific subcomponent of some tiny little system that then gets rolled up. And now I'm responsible for the program management and the contract execution of all these things. That's crazy. That is a lot of responsibility. And I care that I'm not mismanaging the public's funds in this and that grow over a career. And you start talking like, well, now it's $50 million, now it's 100, now it's a billion. And yeah, uh, I care about this stuff because we want to get value. We want to do the right thing and make sure that we are enabling us to stay free far into the future.

Speaker B: Right? Absolutely. I love it. All right, well, let's go into our next question. So what was the risk that you took that seemed crazy at the time, although we've already heard about several crazy risks that you've took so far. But maybe when you haven't mentioned but, uh, something that has fundamentally changed your trajectory and how did you really build the confidence to take that leap?

Speaker C: Well, I just mentioned that I started off my career at the, uh, Air Force Research Laboratory, and it turns out that more than 15 years later, I went back for my command tour and my team's job was counter drone work. So we were looking at cyber and electronic warfare methods to either defend or take over or in other ways defeat enemy drones. And we were doing this from a technology development standpoint. How can we do this in a way that is cost effective and is combating a near term threat? I mean, people are dying right now. Even though this was several years before Ukraine and we saw what was really going on there with drones, we were already seeing the precursor to that, and people were in trouble. And it turned out there was a lot of discussion within the government at that point about who should be doing this, how should it be done. There's tons of different technologies that can get after this threat, whether that's lasers or High powered microwaves or literally training eagles in some cases to go out and capture these things and knock them down. And we can really. What was that?

Speaker B: That's a real thing.

Speaker C: That is a real thing. There have been birds trained to go capture drones, knock them out of the sky, drop them in a net somewhere. It is really incredible because we do need to think about those out of the box ideas of how do we get after this threat. Uh, but what we were trying to do was unique and we were showing success even though it was a technology demonstrator, because it's not the laboratory's job to build the full scale system to mass produce it and get it to as many places as possible. That being the case, I was partnering with another organization because they were the ones that were going to take the technology we were working on and make sure that it did do that, it did scale, it grew, and we were able to get this everywhere it needed. But they were struggling. They had a whole lot of other programs going on. They had some personnel challenges and they were given $65 million to do this mission. And, and we're about to give it back to the treasury and just say, we, we can't do this. And I happened to be in that meeting and was able to say, give it to me, we can do this. It is not the laboratory's mission to do this, but my team is a bunch of superstars and though this is not their primary role, they will figure it out because it is that important. And they care so deeply about this mission and saving people's lives. And we made it work. We were able to scale. We let new contracts that allowed some technology corporations to use this, build it in much larger numbers. And we were taking it right from there to the Middle east and installing it in ways that kept folks safe. And that was not a risk I took lightly because I had been told, this is not your job, this is not what we do at the laboratory. But one of the phrases throughout my career that will get the blood vessels in, in my temples pumping more than anything is the, because we've always done it that way.

Speaker B: Oh my God. Right?

Speaker C: And like, no, this is too important. We have to be willing to take this risk and give it a shot. And it comes again from that core of what's important, what's our why? Why are we doing this? We're trying to keep people safe. So why would we just give this money back and say no way?

Speaker B: Right? No, I love that. What was the worst that could have happened? Like, could they have like, imagine, like, of course the mission could have failed, right? Could have not been successful. But what else? Like, could they have said, like, you know, thank you, Colonel Fram, but no thank you. You're not doing that. Is that possible? Or was there always a path to.

Speaker C: Yes, they certainly could have said that it's just too risky. It's not your mission. And then had they given us the money and we would have failed. I could have been fired from my position. The lab could have further retrenched and say, no way, no how. It is our policy. We are changing things and locking stuff down so we can't do this in the future. So there was certainly a range of negative outcomes. You know, we could have spent the money and produced nothing, but it was one of those things that it was worth a shot, and I felt we had something in front of us that could make a difference.

Speaker B: I love it. Well, before we wrap up, I just wanted to ask you for one more question that we didn't go over in advance. So apologies. If there was somebody listening to this podcast, and they were. They also felt different in some way. Right. And they didn't feel like they could be themselves, whatever it was, what would be some advice, maybe some first steps that they could take to feel like there was a path forward?

Speaker C: I think it goes back to our earlier discussion again about why. What's your why? Simon Sinek tells us, start with that.

Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, I love that. Um, from.

Speaker C: From the beginning. And if you are passionate about something, go for it and be your authentic self along the way. Because the reward wards even today, as, ah, certain identities are being questioned, we're being told to be quiet or to take ourselves essentially out of public life. The value in being authentic, particularly for someone from the LGBTQ community, is so important, even for me. I know this is going to sound silly and trite, but. But now if I'm walking out of my bedroom in the morning and I see myself in the mirror, out of the corner of my eye, I'm like, that's me. I am myself. What a gift. Because that's not what other people are going to see in you, but it's what they're going to feel that you are authentically yourself. And that is a value, that is a pathway. I think we absolutely need to reframe our conception of vulnerability. We cannot think of this as weakness, vulnerability in showing others your humanity, in who you really are. Is that opening in your armor, not for them to slip a weapon in, but for them to connect, for you to come out to find that ability to share some of your common humanity. And that's what we can do. And what others is going to see is the real you. And they're going to connect on an authentic level. It's going to be deeper and more meaningful than it might have been otherwise. And everyone is going to benefit from that.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Well, Colonel Fram, Brie, ma', am, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it and thank you for being on the show. And I look forward to sharing lunch with you very soon.

Speaker C: I look forward to that as well. Thank you for having me on, Alexa. Sam.