From Startup to IBM: Sonny Kakar's $200M Exit Strategy and Social Impact Revolution

Speaker A: Welcome to govcom Unfiltered, where your journey through the labyrinth of federal contracting begins. I'm Alexa Choi, your guide and host on this epic adventure. Here we dive deep, uh, into the heart of government contracting, shedding light on the heroic tales of those who navigate its complex terrain. Our mission, to bring you closer to the action, revealing the critical steps, triumphant victories, and occasional pitfalls that our intrepid adventures face. Your journey into the world of government contracting starts now, and we could not be happier to have you with us. Let's embark on this adventure together.

Speaker B: Thank you for joining us on govcom Unfiltered. Today. Our guest is Sunny Kakkar. So excited to talk with him today. He's got so much to share. Sunny, please. First, before we get started, introduce yourself.

Speaker C: Thanks. Uh, Alexa, thanks for having me on. My name is Sunny Kakar. I am the executive director of Seva Truck. It's a food truck that we serve Title 1 schools and the DMV. And also the CEO of Seven Spaces, which was co working space dedicated to the GovCon community. I'm a former CEO of a company called Sevitech that was a national security technology firm that we sold to private equity and an IBM, um, a few years ago.

Speaker B: Awesome. Perfect. I think a lot of the folks listening to this will probably already know who you are, but if for anybody else that is just tuning in for the first time, you're in for a real treat. So let's go ahead and get started with our first question. So, so I, as I kind of mentioned, I think many people will know you for everything that you've done and everything that you've done to give back to the community. But what's a pivotal time for your early career that really shaped who you are today? Maybe something that's not in your official bio.

Speaker C: Ah, uh, boy, I'm a, I'm an open book. But I think I can probably think of a couple things. You know, when I graduated college, you know, this was for immigrant and, and I think that many of your viewers probably are immigrants and have a similar story of parents coming here, kind of giving up a lot of what they had, where they were, wherever they came from, to build a life here in America. And so I went, we did all of that. I came when I was 5 years old. My parents struggled and sacrificed a lot and I went through college. I did my mechanical engineering degree at the, uh, University of Maryland. And then I went back to India and my parents were so distraught. I remember them like, we left India for you to come Here. Why are you going back? And actually it was interesting because went back uh, one to connect kind of with. Connect with India to the best of that. Also it was for a direct sales company that I was going to be working for. I was literally walking around businesses in India selling all kinds of different items. And uh, it was probably the most difficult time in my life because I'd just gotten this degree and I thought I was making a great decision. But it was a real character builder. And what it did was I think all these things, whether it's. I think most entrepreneurs have cut grass and have had landscaping businesses and I think most of them have done paper routes. And I've done all of that stuff, you know, for three years I did this paper route, Washington post every day, seven days a week, waking up at 4 o'. Clock. And with all of those experiences I realized, boy, I better really do something with my life, otherwise I'm going to be doing this for the rest of my life. And I think India was no different. India was one of those experiences that really kickstart my career in doing something bigger and more creative. And because of that struggle, I think it just made me stronger.

Speaker B: I think going to India after you got your degree, and that's such a great story. But what was something positive from that? Like did you re, you know, meet some people that you hadn't known before and like develop lifelong friendships with them or did you take back any like really strong. I guess. I guess you did take back a strong work ethic. That's what it sounds like.

Speaker C: I mean those were. Yes. So your first part of the question. I reconnected with some of my family that still lives there.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Awesome. And connected with my faith that originated there. And the work. We were working six days a week, 16 hour days. So it was definitely a. And it was field work like, and it was sales. So I learned sales, which I didn't learn in school of course, really developing the art of sales of uh, relationship building, of creating kind of a fear of loss, but also, you know, value add. And so for an entire year I did this and I think I really did develop some skills that have been. I brought back into. And uh, I didn't know I was going to be in the govcon space necessarily at that time. I knew nothing about it, but I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur and I knew that sales, building relationships, being a problem solver and having great work ethic were going to be the foundation for whatever was to come in the future.

Speaker B: I think those things you just mentioned are some of the most important things for government contractors. And I think starting one from scratch and building it and growing it and selling it and having that story is so impactful for just the entire industry to see. It kind of puts hope in the sales for a lot of the struggling small businesses, especially in this day and age. So I did have a question that was a little bit off script in 2025 has been a little bit of a hard year for all of industry. I think we all know that. So what would you say as like, advice to these small businesses? Maybe they're in the 8A program or other set aside programs that have been impacted. What kind of advice would you give them to do things differently to succeed?

Speaker C: You know, that's a great question. And it's hard sitting in my chair now giving advice on something when people are living it today. All I can really, all I can really share is what is being experienced today, the level of uncertainty. It's temporary. Um, because throughout, whether it was when I was running the business or whether it was before that, in the govcon space or outside the govcon space, there are going to be some challenges that we have no control over, uh, what our entrepreneurialism is all about.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Because if it was easy, if there were no obstacles, then we'd all be doing it. We all know that. It's because of the difficulty that you are in the position that you're in today, which is to overcome that challenge. That's why you're the leader as of your business. And so you've got to think about these things as temporary and they almost always are. We've already seen change, right? We saw some changes in March. They were, uh, quite abrupt. They shook us up a little bit. And I've talked to a lot of people about that. But staying the course, I mean, you still have to be thoughtful. If the puck has moved, and we know what that analogy means. What that puck has moved and you've been focused on a certain capability or a certain trajectory within the federal government and that the money puck has moved somewhere else, well, there's going to have to be a pivot. I do not recommend recoiling.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Because those that really continue to be thoughtful, deliberate, get their team excited about investment, knowing that whatever difficulty there is, everybody's going through it and you got to push yourself through it and be the leader that you need to be and have your team be the leaders they need to be to move your company forward. So my recommendation really is think about all of these things. That happen in business as temporary and an opportunity to learn. And those companies that really stick to their gon, stick to their values, stick to their work, to what their business is all about, build stronger. And this is the time to really build even stronger relationships with your team.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker C: To overcome this challenge because it's more, it's as much mental as it might be financial or you know, related to your business. But you got to help them push through it. So that's kind of my two cents on how uh, you deal with some of the current uncertainties that are facing the govcon sector.

Speaker B: Oh, perfect. Well, I do appreciate that. I think a lot of folks are looking to get into commercial or pivoting to sled. But you're right, like stay in the course and being really dedicated is probably a very wise course of action. I always say gov.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. It's still the biggest customer in the world.

Speaker B: Right, right.

Speaker C: And look at the budgets are not, uh, decreasing. They may be shifting, but they're not. So the, the, that's a very lucrative and an extremely mission focused opportunity to work with the federal government. And so you do need to align your passion with where, with emissions. I think that's important as well. So that you're not doing things that you're not necessarily aligned, uh, with.

Speaker B: Yeah. You need to have your why. Your why is going to fuel your how every single time.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: All right, so next question is. I love this question because I'm a career BD capture person executive. So what's a common misconception people have about making money in the consulting space? I know that, you know, always see these funny memes about what people think contractors do and what they actually do. So I'm really excited to hear your take on this one.

Speaker C: Yeah, I guess this one. It depends on who, what the perspective, who's asking the question or who's thinking about it. If you are a business owner. When I started the business I thought, oh boy, as soon as I get my 8A contracts are just going to fall. I won't know how many I can catch. They'll just be so many. And um, you know, what a misconception that business just falls in your lap. It never happens. I mean if it ever happens, it is a true godsend. It's a blessing that, you know, that happens to very few people. So for the most part, m. One of the misconceptions is once I get my 8A or some certification or even a vehicle.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Business is going to be healed. It's gonna, it's gonna be amazing. It's just gonna grow through the roof. The reality is those are just table, uh, stakes. And, and it continues to evolve because competition is so fierce. And it needs to be fierce because we're trying to really solve some of the biggest challenges facing nation. And so that's where I think people really need to focus on those table stakes. Those are the bar barriers to entry into the federal government.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Then you got to compete. Those vehicles are really going to be, they're helpful, but they will not bring in business. So I think that's one misconception. Another is that somehow that the federal government is not going to hold us accountable the same way that potentially a commercial enterprise might. And so we feel we can somehow sometimes hide under a layer within the government. That's why you see so many federal agencies in many cases they haven't really progressed very much.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: They're still using technology that commercial as abandoned a decade ago.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And so it is incumbent upon us, if you want to, if you. The misconception about money is only a byproduct of bringing great value.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Sustained. Your business is going to be sustainable because you're, you've added value and that value has got to be measurable beyond meeting a milestone in a project management, you know, again chart or some sort of a project management plan. It's gotta be, you know, to the taxpayer. It's gotta be. And I think if all those fundamentals work out right then I think that remuneration will eventually come to your business. Right. The last thing I'll point out, and I've heard this being said by many people and I understand it because it's a very difficult business, be lonely as an entrepreneur. It's challenging and, but I hear people saying, uh, I want to sell the business in three years or five years. And it's, it's interesting because when I ask why or when I asked, you know, is that the goal just to sell it or uh, then I, you know, you start digging in a little bit more and really where I think, and that's not the wrong to me, the wrong message to send to your team or the industry because it shows that you're transient and that uh, you are looking for a payday versus building a great company. And I will just, you know, I will just say, and I would advise focus on building a great company. And that starts with your management team, your people, the culture that you build and the technology you invest in or if it's technology or service or product that you invest in. And make it the best you can possibly make it. And if you do that and you invest wisely, the money aspects will then follow. But if you lead with I want to sell, I want to make a lot of money, you think about uh, the stuff that really people value what other company, private equity, other buyers, the customers, employees. What they value is the quality of what you built. The, the decisions when think times get rough, you know, huh Fashion, the empathy, the innovation, the creativity. All those kinds of things that make companies go from you know, kind of the run of the mill to something really great that it stands out.

Speaker B: Yeah, this is the good line of thinking and I think that there's a lot of thoughts about making a lot of money by selling your IT company and govcon. This is like a whole talk track that people have and I think your points are really valid. I do want to talk about competition just for a second because I think that there are a lot of companies out there that are up and coming out of Silicon Valley and commercial hitting the govcon space right now, especially Vicod and using AI to bring you know, solutions to bear much faster than a traditional govcon. And things are going to get a lot harder for traditional government contractors, especially smaller companies when it comes to the competitive BD strategies, growth strategies. What were your opinions on that one?

Speaker C: Yeah, so I think that uh, as these commercial companies have come in they have introduced some very creative ways that are more efficient. Some of the hurdles that we have in the federal government is the policy, the barriers to uh, the innovation. Whether that's, I mean you need things like FedRamp, you need the security credentials to be able to introduce new solutions into the federal government. Having said that I think it's an area that the federal government needs to invest in a lot so that those, the ease of bringing in new technologies is a little bit more streamlined. A uh, contractor standpoint. You have to innovate. We cannot be what we are classifying as a traditional government contractor. And traditional by what I mean by traditional is a button seats mentality.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: That is not a sustainable model. And those that are, have continued with that model have typically, you know, not continued to maybe grow or provide value at the level that they were hoping for. So it, my uh, my guidance on business development is you gotta narrow the capability but a narrow the focus. What's a misconception? I think also in small businesses we think and as entrepreneurs we can do everything.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And when I was starting and it's actually I'm not, I learned that over 25 years. When I started the business we had 25 customers. We were in every single cabinet level agency. When I sold the business we were in three.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: When I started my website was filled with every buzzword related to technology. When we sold we had one.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And so the point is when you're looking at BD strategy you gotta be innovative, it's gotta be relevant. Today we know I don't need to say buzzwords like AI, but they need to be applicable to a business challenge. Not AI for the sake of AI and uh, not technology for the sake of technology. It's gotta be focused on solving a real business problem that, you know, keeps your customers awake at night. I mean very specific and I think if you do that and you narrow your focus, what happens is a few things. One is the people that you hire are all now concentrated on that one capability and one, that one mission set and your comp. The amount of res. I used to always say my best, the five best team members can go up against Leidos's five best team members anytime.

Speaker B: Oh ah, yeah.

Speaker C: It was because we were so as a company we were 500 person company laser focused on one capability and one or two customers.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: I don't think a Leidos would have or another large company out, uh, you know, to pick the company very capable in so many areas but only about 500 people channeled into this one. And that's the difference in terms of just business strategy. Business development strategy is narrow your focus because the competition is fierce. You gotta have more pounds per square inch focused um, on a specific agency. That's all data driven as well. I mean you can't be in the wrong agency given right, you know, uh, where the government is leaning and where their priorities are.

Speaker B: So did you meet with your leadership team year over year or did you set like strategic goals for like a three year period and work backwards? Because I've seen it work both ways but I, this is a common thing for small businesses to want to do everything and then the better they get at their jobs, they kind of narrow and focus. This is really good advice and I hope every small business out there listens to this. But I want to know from a strategy perspective because that's what you had to do to come up with these, right? It's not like you just out of the whim, um, everybody decided oh let's focus on these two, two things and one agency and let's go. No, you had to actually bring the team together, think about what mattered, think about what worked, think about what you have and then push it forward from there. So how did you do your strategy sessions?

Speaker C: Yeah, you know, in some ways very traditional to what every company does. You know, you, the normal business cycle in September, you start planning for the following year. You have an off site, you build a budget and a financial model for the following year. You put projections in. And in the beginning I found those to be very useless.

Speaker B: Uh, right.

Speaker C: You know, we're finding that we're always missing the mark on the goals and mostly financial goals and you know, and so as time went on and the horizon of what we were planning for was too long and in today's market, I'd say you never want to look at beyond two years because it's just, I mean seriously, seriously, you don't want to go much longer than two years. Things change too much. So you're right. A lot of energy and it's something that you're absolutely. That I could almost guarantee is going to change.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Um, the way we did it is that first it was very data driven. So we try to take the emotions all out of it. Like, where are our strategy? Had to be data driven as well. It's not right. Uh, because it had to be supported by are there opportunities? Are we in the right cycle? Like the last thing you want to do is go into an agency and say that's where we're going to go. And they just went through all their procurement cycles for the last five years or 90% of their stuff just got

Speaker B: awarded or they just put it all. Uh, they have a vehicle that they purchase off of that you don't have. Like, you know, you got to know, you got to know this stuff.

Speaker C: They had a agency level BPA or an IDIQ that they've already awarded. Right. So if you don't go in with that level of visibility, then you really are just shooting, you know, darts with blind, with blindfolds on. So I think we would start with let's figure out where we want to be. Let's answer these very, uh, important critical questions of whether there is really an opportunity there. What's the competitive landscape? What's the distance that we've got to cover in order to close the gap between us who are unknowns, especially if it's Greenfield and, and we would only do maximum one greenfield a year because it's just too expensive. We'd rather go adjacent within the same agency, which tends to work a lot better and which is where your priorities should be. Right before you go into a brand new greenfield.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And Then so base that on actual procurements and then come up with a real plan around that. What we did was we actually used jira. It uh, was a JIRA board that we had a weekly meeting because uh, we wanted to have resources like what is it we're trying to accomplish? Who's responsible for it? What are the dates? And so that went down throughout the entire organization and those goals were in front of us every single week. We try to make a, you know, are we spending our time in the right places or not? This is what we said we're going to do. Are we really doing it? And so I think actionable plans are, ah, more are, some are absolutely critical to ensure that your strategic plan doesn't become selfware and collects dust. So you got to figure out a way on a very regular weekly basis to be looking at what were we trying to accomplish for the year and are we actually moving closer and is a team aligned to it?

Speaker B: Interesting. That's a, I love the JIRA board idea idea and that's a very technology forward way of doing it, especially when you have a leader, a bunch of leaders that understand how it works and the point of it and all that. So. All right, let's move into our next question. When you think about your network, this is my favorite question. What has been the most effective approach not just for building connections, but to turn them into beneficial relationships?

Speaker C: You know, we've heard the words competimates and yeah, there's probably a bunch of others that I've now probably forgotten, but, oh, uh, you know, frenemies or whatever the hell. But it's interesting because I think that in uh, an environment like today, you need to have an extremely strong network and relationships primarily because, you know, post Covid, those have become a little bit more difficult, especially for the smaller businesses that got started either right before COVID or in the last few years. Creating connectivity other people has been a challenge and creating deep enough of a relationship where trust is built is certainly a challenge. And so while it's a challenge, it can be overcome. And that just takes persistence.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And so, you know, the way I've always looked at my network is it's got to be a give and take. And it's like any other relationship, whether it's with your spouse or your, you know, your partner or your family or kids or whoever. I think every relationship takes a give and take and it takes a real genuine interest and wanting to see a, uh, mutual benefit. And there's no different in business because you're not going to build a sustainable relationship if it's not a win win. And that means that you got to look at what you're great at and more importantly, look at what you're not great at. It's really hard for people and me included, to think that we're not good at something. And what you find is when you go and start bidding and say, oh, you know what, I just bid on this and we thought we could do it all. And you come back and you get a tech score that perhaps wasn't as strong in a certain area and you start realizing over kind of difficult, uh, in a very difficult way that you're not the best at everything. And so that's why then I think the network's very important. I think building companies that complement your skill set, strengthen your skill set both in terms of past performance reach relationships. I don't say outsource relationships that, ah, you do that. But uh, what I'm saying is that it should be complementary so that you can have go to partners that you trust that you guys that you can build together. And to think in today's environment, the Lone Ranger concept may be a little bit more difficult now than it was perhaps a decade or two ago. But yeah, I think getting out there, working with organizations like G2X, going to these various events, connecting with customers, right. You got to have some value to add. So you got to be thinking about not necessarily some sort of a scripted pitch, but a genuine way of this is what my business can offer and I can add value. And the more sincere and the more capable and more you got to back that up, I think that network will stay with you through the evolution of your business.

Speaker B: Right. I feel like the best word that you said was genuine. Because people feel like in order to be professional and likable, they have to be a certain way. But the more authentic and genuine you are, the more people like you. And it's because then they're like, they know they can see the real you and it allows them to be the real them. And then that connection is warmer and stronger earlier, rather, rather than trying to have to, you know, go through the sticky wickets of teaming and sub KS and you know, delivery. And it's better to build those warm relationships up front before you get through that. The gauntlet of working together. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. Because what you're describing is the dating phase. And the dating phase is always fun and until, you know, the rubber hits the road, which is, and this is

Speaker B: why I could never date, is because I was doing BD and capture for too long because dating was terrible and too much like it.

Speaker C: I know it's like once you get to the teaming agreement stage and the sub case stage is when. Or the, you know, the contract stage is when things get a little sticky. Um, but yeah, that's why it's so. And listen, there's going to be in it. And I've had situations where I thought we had great partners and at the end they turn out not to be. You know, it didn't. Did not work out and I've had to go the other way that, you know, we tried a few things and we thought we're doing it for the right. And it did work out. So just like everything else in business, some are going to work out and some are not. But I think you've got to be authentic and genuine in your purpose about building a relationship. And it's got to be value add going both ways. And both have got to benefit long term to ensure that is sustainable. And that includes whether you're partnering or whether you're, you know, hiring leadership or anybody within your company and even with the customers. I mean, it applies everywhere in our lives as human beings, and it certainly is no different in our business.

Speaker B: Right, that makes sense. What's the risk that you took that seemed crazy at the time, but fundamentally change your trajectory? How did you actually build the confidence to take that leap?

Speaker C: Oh, boy. This one is. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs that I've talked to go through this stage and that is you feel like you can't do it anymore. And, and it's really, it's interesting. It's like, it's psychological. And I used to tell, you know, my team, you know, tell me how I'm doing, because there's a job I'm doing today I've never done before. And that's what happens in entrepreneurship. I mean, in most cases. But if you're a lifelong entrepreneur and you were not running a company or you were not building a business and you just kind of jumped into this, you're literally doing a job you've never done before every day. It's kind of like being a parent.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, you know, we don't, we've not done it before. We're just kind of doing the best we can as we go along. And a time came, business was doing well, but I decided to leave the business. It was in 2016. So I was, I stepped down as CEO. Uh, and I brought in a CEO. Uh, and the impetus for that, primarily some of it may have been just, am I the right person to lead the company to the next level or. And the other part was that's when I started Savitruck.

Speaker B: Oh.

Speaker C: Uh, so in 2016, I took the year off and bought a FedEx truck and just built out a kitchen. Knew nothing about our restaurants or serving, you know, food. But I'm like, this is something I'm not going to wait to some point in the future to do if I can do it today. And so the timing was right. I just come back from a trip to India and I realized that, you know, there was a purpose for me to be one of the few lucky people to be. To have the opportunity to come to America. And there's gotta be more expected of me than just kind of building a business. So I felt like service has always been a part, a big part of my family, my kind of, my upbringing, my, My faith, my community. And so decided to do that. And it was, I thought it was crazy. Uh, I think everyone told me, you're crazy, you're gonna, you're not gonna run your business. And so I, literally, the first day I, when I left, I hired a CEO, I went and bought a, A tractor.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I, uh, I just started digging with an auger and just moving dirt around. I'm like, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. But it was interesting that it was such a crazy move. But one year later, for reasons I won't get into this didn't, uh, work out with the CEO. But I came back in 2016 and some amazing things happened. Number one, we got this amazing nonprofit organization started and we're making a real impact in our community that we live in. And to me, that was extremely rewarding and still is today, nine years later. The second thing that happened is, uh, I, when I returned to the business, I. I came into the business as a brand new CEO. And what I mean by that is I no longer knew what was happening. I did it as if I was a hired gun.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And so I think had I been there the entire time, I don't know if I would have looked as critical in every aspect of the business. And I'm like, okay, we have got to now really change the trajectory of our business.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: I'm seeing now, like, uh, stepping away. It was amazing. Stepping away from it for a year. Yeah. Showed all the, the skeletons in the closet, the things like, uh, what is happening here? This is not as pretty as I thought it was. This baby is ugly. And I had to change and make some very hard decisions, changed some leadership, introduced and brought in new leadership advisors. Investment strategy totally changed. And between 2016 and 2019, we totally transformed the business.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: And I don't think I would have been able to do that. And so this is one of those, like, you're crazy to do it. I didn't know how it was going to turn out. But I've always felt that if you do things with purpose, you do things that are in a very loving kind of a. With positive, um, thoughts and very sincere. I think that there is a way that, you know, life kind of just works its way out in your favor. And that was one of those things that amazing people were introduced, rejuvenated people that were within the business, repositioned them, um, in places where they could be more effective. Absolutely. Change our investment strategy. And. And we just took off. The business took off. I mean, it was nice. We converted all of our small business to unrestricted. It was a hundred percent technology, software development, desktops, you know, AI, and very concentrated in a couple of customer sets. And then we had this amazing transaction that I'm grateful for.

Speaker B: The funny thing is I remember this. I remember watching from the outside and thinking, wow, he left the business and came back. What's. I want to know the backstory. And now I know the backstory. So thank you for sharing. Last question. If you were to go back and give yourself some advice when you were just starting out, what would you say about balancing competition and collaboration?

Speaker C: Yeah, like I was saying a little bit earlier, I think competition and collaboration, I think as entrepreneurs we are wired to, to think that we should just be competing.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And it was what I'd said a little bit earlier that, you know, we think we can do it all. Whether that's in every agency, every capability. I still see websites and marketing pitches from, you know, relatively small businesses profess that they can do everything right. And I think what happens is my reaction at least, and I know other people's reaction very quickly becomes the rolling of the eyes. Right. It's not credible. And so it's gotta be backed up with very specific capabilities, past performance and innovations that you've actually prototypes, whatever that happens to be. And so I think just coming to a. Finding those few companies that you really can collaborate with, but only do that once you've figured out what your strategy is.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: The strategy still has to be narrow, like what can you do better than what's the best thing that your company does? And do you feel that you can do that better than anybody else. And, um, where can you apply that technology or that solution or that service to a business challenge? Any market that matters today. If you can do that, then you want to build your ecosystem around that. And so I think we have to have a healthy balance of competition and collaboration because the government expects it. It's um, actually lower risk and it's better value for the business that you currently run, but it's also better value for your customer sets. And um, if you want to be competitive, you know, your competitors also have our collaborators. So we're moving into an environment of more collaboration. It's not that it hasn't been there. I just think it's going to be there even more going forward because of how competitive things are. And you can't be the best at everything.

Speaker B: Right, Right. I've been giving a talk lately about three pivots that government contractors need to do right now. And one of the first things I say is you should fire up your subcontracting. You should build teams with successful larges and really get that path to revenue strong rather than trying to prime everything. I mean, go ahead and keep doing that, but make sure you have the subcontractor piece strong as well. Because these procurements are going to be shifting around more than usual. Instead of going service disabled, veteran owned, they're going to go full and open. The government's going to stop sending things to the small business tracks. Once they hit their goals, they're done. So you need to start developing the relationships with the larger businesses and have a whole stack of them that you know like and trust in your capabilities. So what you're saying is really resonating with that.

Speaker C: Yeah, and I agree with that because of the more very current, recent, you know, changes that are in the environment. And so just to piggyback off of what you said, in order to be attractive to a large business in terms of a sub K, you've got to come there with a minimum of two things. And one is a very unique capability. And it can't just be we do AI or we do, I mean very specific. It's, you know, we are, we're platinum partners with Salesforce or we are very, you know, it's got to be something that's very value add. The second thing is you got to have relationships with the customer.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: So I think going to a large company and then saying, can you connect me? And going through their small business channels and saying, we just want to be a subco. Subcontractor.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Without saying I want to be in this program, within this agency, within this department.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Who do they connect you with?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And, um, the reason I want to be there is because I've either. I've worked there for a long time, I know the program manager, I know where their spend is focused on. I know the deals that are coming out. I know that the current company is vulnerable. Like, what do you know that we're just going to say, wow, I want you versus the other hundred companies that have submitted.

Speaker B: Right, right, right. Yeah. I think it's access and influence most of the time. Those are the two things that they want.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think so if it's in, uh, a. If it's in a new. Like if you are in an agency where you already have some domain, expertise, relationships, by all means, prime the. Everything you can prime, you need to prime. And you got to keep priming those agencies where either the deal's going, you know, it's going to go unrestricted because it's too large, or it's in an agency that you're not in right now, but you have customer relationships, then sub K is the way to go. That's the way you're going to get your foot in the door. But in order to get your foot in the door, you got to differentiate. Differentiate yourself amongst all the other small businesses. And you got to be thinking about that and be very honest with yourself. Are you differentiating yourself or not? Otherwise you can't be disappointed with not getting a response back from those large firms.

Speaker B: Right, right. That makes sense. Well, thank you so much for today, Sunny. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker C: No, it's fantastic. Thanks, Alexa, for having me. I enjoyed it. And, uh, good luck to your organization and you guys.

Speaker B: Thank you. Thank.

Speaker C: You.

Speaker A: Sa.