Stop Chasing RFPs: How Real Winners Shape the Entire Procurement Game

Speaker A: Welcome to Govcom Unfiltered, where your journey through the labyrinth of federal contracting begins. I'm Alexa Choi, your guide and host on this epic adventure. Here, we dive deep, uh, into the heart of government contracting, shedding light on the heroic tales of those who navigate its complex terrain. Our mission, to bring you closer to the action, revealing the critical steps, triumphant victories, and occasional pitfalls that our intrepid adventures face. Your journey into the world of government contracting starts now, and we could not be happier to have you with us. Let's embark on this adventure together.

Speaker B: Thank you for joining us on gov Come Unfiltered today. Our guest is Mike Nation. Very excited about this conversation. He's a big book nerd like me. Got connected, had a little conversation, and I thought wanted to share his opinions, his views, everything with the rest of you. So, um, thank you so much for being here, Mike. We look forward to it. Please tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker C: Oh, thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Mike Nation. I'm the president and owner of Forda Strategic Communications. Basically, Fortis helps companies win business, protect and enhance their reputation, and defend market share. Through strategic communications, we get the right message to the right people, to the right place, and boost p win that way. Real quick snapshot. Before I founded Fortis, I was a Raytheon executive. Took a buyout from Raytheon in 2023. And then before joining Raytheon, I was active duty Air force. And then even before that, I was a busboy at Uptown Eats. And I can make mean french fries.

Speaker B: Uh, I think it's a life skill, actually, making mean french fries.

Speaker A: Wonderful.

Speaker B: Let's hop right into it. So, first question. Talk about a pivotal moment early in your career that shaped who you are today.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, this is absolutely not in my official bio. So I think I was, like, 21 years old. So I guess we're going back, like, what, two or three years, you know, And I was going through Air Force ROTC summer training between my junior and senior year of college. It's one of those steps ROTC cadets go through on their path to becoming Air Force officers. And it's really big focus about leadership development and all that kind of good stuff. And our training officer, he puts me in charge of this physical training project for the flight, for the unit I was a, uh, part of. And it's a leadership opportunity. Right. It's like a chance to show off my ability to plan, organize, execute. All that kind of good leadership stuff goes off exactly as I'm Planned. I'm m feeling pretty good about myself. At the end of the event, you know, my flight and I, we all fall back into formation. We're all standing there in our, uh, little neat little rows at attention. And the training officer, he's about to march us off and then he looks over and he sees all the equipment we used just left all over the place because nobody had put it up. And so he calls me out in front of the flight and stands me up at attention. And he doesn't chew me out though, but he just starts asking me these questions. Who was in charge of training, uh, exercise cadet? Me, sir. Who was responsible for the equipment? Me, sir. Why wasn't put away. And I kind of stopped and thought I was like, I assumed everyone else would see it and it would get taken care of, sir. Did you ask anyone to do that? No, sir. And then it's like I, I can still remember, right? And it's like it was your responsibility. You can delegate it, but you own it. You and you alone. Do you understand? Yes, sir. And then he dropped me. I gave him like 10 push ups or whatever, put the equipment away. And you know, uh, Alexa, I think if, if you go back, if you were to ask anybody else who was there that day, the training officer, anybody else, they wouldn't remember that it was just another day in training, right? But I will tell you, those lessons like ownership, responsibility, accountability, delegation, making assumptions, like, it's all those wonderful lessons that, that I got reinforced that day, they stuck with me. And you know, to be honest, it just became so ingrained in my leadership DNA and part of how I operate that I never really even thought about the why or the how. It just how I do things, like just not being ocd, just making sure that when there's a plan, right, things are accounted for. Like, I never thought about the why. It's. And it's just all those great lessons and I never thought, really thought about the why or the how until I was honestly thinking about, you know, preparing to go on the show. And it was really one of those pivotal moments that just, really just has had an, a very positive impact on me and my career.

Speaker B: Right. I think accountability, ultimate accountability, being where the buck stops as a leader is something that not everybody realizes is part of the journey. Right? Is it is actually, to be honest, it's considered table stakes from like an expectations thing. But I don't think people realize it until you get in a situation like the one you had where somebody points it out and says very specifically, you were the ultimate person responsible for this. Right.

Speaker C: And how fortunate was I that I mean, I could have that happen to me in a low stakes, no stakes environment and that I could learn that lesson and that that was, you know, that that's why like. And um, you know, if he's listening, I won't say his name if he's, you know, if he's listening today. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that. That lesson really made a difference and has had a positive impact on my life.

Speaker B: I'm so glad you picked this question. Actually, it's one of my favorites. I have 10 questions I send out to every guest and the guest picks five questions that speak to them and that shapes our conversation. So this question, when I saw it, is one of my favorites because you know, it's funny, I've interviewed a lot of folks that have been in the military and nine times out of ten it's a, uh, lesson from the military because what a leadership training opportunity. Right? That's where, you know, you pick up the things that stay with you for the rest of your life. So I really appreciate that. We're going to jump to the next question. What was one of your unconventional strategies that you've used to win contracts in this space? Maybe not this year. No, just kidding. This year has been a little rockier than usual. But like, yeah, just talk to us about this.

Speaker C: Yeah, so it's, it, I'll say it's an unconventional strategy to a lot of folks, but it's kind of my standard playbook. And at the risk of sounding shamelessly self promoting, it's sort of one of the foundations of what Ford is strategic Communications is all about, which is integrating communications into the capture process. If I can just kind of walk you through just some of the context. Yeah, a lot of companies, they'll have a PR department or they'll use a PR agency or marketing and frankly a lot don't because they think it's a luxury and it's overhead. But I'll say this, here's the differentiator companies within Edge, they don't just use communications, they use it strategically. In other words, they don't just sprinkle it on after the fact or think about it from a transactional standpoint like, oh, hey, cool, here's some great headlines and oh wow, look, our latest social media post got, you know, however many hundreds of eyeballs, they think about it as a key business driver and they use it as an integrated element into the capture process. And uh, frankly that's, it's hard Not a lot of companies do that because it takes a lot of work and specialized knowledge. But here's sort of what I mean by that. I, uh, joined, like I said, I joined Raytheon in 2007 out of the Air Force, part of the PR marketing department. Uh, even though most of my military career was at public affairs, I also had done some operational stuff as a career broadening assignment. So I came in good understanding the technology worked from an operator's perspective. And again, instead of just sprinkling PR and marketing on at the back end, hey, we want a contract, let's announce it. Or we had a successful test, we announce it. We, you know, the, we started integrating comms and marketing into the capture process. So for example, hey, let's time a really big announcement. So the news pops a day or two ahead of a key meeting with a particular customer. So now when the business development people walk into the room, the conversation isn't, oh, nice to meet you, what do you do? It's oh, hey, I saw this cool thing, this article about this cool thing that you guys just did. Tell me more. And then over time I started realizing that we could take it even deeper by integrating in with a capture team after the, after the go decisions made. So now to the point where we're pushing messaging out that amplifies those win themes. And now you're using comms strategically to help frame the capture itself, to help educate the customer, help educate decision makers about, uh, your point of view on the issues. And it's happening in a way that augments and support all this capture related activity. And then the other side of that too is using comms to disrupt and deposition your competitors. You deposition them by raising issues and topics that kind of give them squirmy pants if they have to answer those questions. And you, you disrupt them by getting inside their OODA loop. Observe Orient Decide act. Uh, invented by the late U.S. air Force Colonel John Boyd. It sort of disrupts what their activities are because you know that they're watching you closely. So you think about, okay, how is the information I'm going to release and put out there? How is that going to be viewed through that competitive frame? Some of it's a little psychological, right? Do I know that the chief engineer is very temperamental and is, you know, that person is going to spiral because they see something and they're going to spend half a day fuming, uh, instead of doing things. And some of it is strategic. Are they going to think about their investment strategies differently? Are they going to Think about bid. No bid differently. So there's a lot of, you know, a lot of that 3D chess. So we started weaving those approaches in. We started seeing that it was boosting P win. And then as I started becoming more senior in the company, had the, um, influence to ability things at a strategic level, started inserting comms into the capture process at key points, getting them into proposals, red teams, things like that. Because what I found consistently is that the more involved communications is, the more strategic and deliberate you are, the higher the P win is the key though. And it's really, it's. There's. You gotta have that domain knowledge. And I get some heat from it. Oh yeah, you get heat from it, right? Because I get heat. Like some communicators, like, well, comms is comms. I'm like, you know, what if you don't know the difference between an ACAT one versus SBIR phase one, Right. Or the difference between a, uh, LEO and PO low earth orbit in a program executive office.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: You're not going to be able to execute and influence a capture at the strategic level.

Speaker B: Well, I have a couple questions for you on this and I think. All right, uh, I think the listeners would be really interested in it. My questions as well, two things. First of all, how can you make sure that your message is getting to the right person? Because you know as well as I do that the contracting officer might be the decider in the moment of like having all the information, but they're not necessarily the customer. So how do you make sure that your messages are going to the customer? And then how do you react fast enough, agilely enough to make sure that your message is responding to the shifting timelines, you know, because the government will be like, oh, we pushed it to the right three months. And you're like, but we just published that yesterday. Do we publish it again? Do we like, you know, and so like, how do you respond to these, like shifting quick sense, you know.

Speaker C: Oh, that never happens. Right?

Speaker B: Uh, never happens.

Speaker C: Let me pick that apart. So there's two things. Part one. Public Relations Society of America has a sort of a model for strategic communications. And it's. The first element is research. And that's key. So, uh, and one of the things I'll tell my clients is, you know, there's a lot of stuff that's going to happen behind the scenes is really understanding the customer. And a lot of it is, you know, the broader capture team has that information. So it's that integrated approach. It's strategic, but really understanding who the customer is, what those things are. Understanding as much as you can and getting as grand granular as you can about the, you know, if you think about your influence maps, right, it's very, it's like if, if the Stratcoms team is not looking at the influence the same and involved in that influence map, uh, that same thing with all the circles that has the smiling faces and the different, you know, who the decision makers are, the circles of influence, all those things, that's, I mean that's, it's really understanding that and then understanding what their key care abouts are. Because otherwise you're just, you know, you're just throwing darts and uh, you're wasting time. So that's the first thing. Yeah, responding to the shifting piece. It's that tight integration. So it's integrated strategic communications. You're putting that stuff out there. But then when things change, you have to be flexible and nimble and it's, it's being ready to adapt and saying, okay, you know what, this has changed in the capture. So we have to pivot and we may be, we need to, we don't want to be reactive, but we want to be responsive. We want to think, understand what the implications are. Do we need to change the messaging, throttle back, dial it up, adjust, uh, go silent? There's a lot of discussion and coordination, alignment.

Speaker B: Okay, so one more question. I mean just from what I know about BDN captures at big businesses, it sounds like something that they would do, to be honest, because they've got the teams, they've got the structure, they've got, you know, people upon people to do each one of the functions. Right. So it makes sense that they would think about Stratcom strategic communications as something that would be in the beginning and kind of flow throughout which would make the voice of the customer stronger. So that makes sense. But if you think about our mid market companies or even the small businesses who does, who are very limited on budget and one person might do a lot of those functions. Which person's job is it to do Stratcom.

Speaker C: Yeah. So let me. When I took a buyout, Raytheon was very generous. Its executives offered them buyouts in 23. And one of the reasons I started Fortis in 23 after I took the buyout was to sort of be able to offer that service to those smaller companies, you know, at a, you know, because they, you're right, it's a full time job and they're, they may not have the ability to bring in an army of people so to bring in somebody with that specialized skill set and that's sort of one of the things that I do and that's sort of where I'm, you know, frankly that's, that's how I make my living is helping those mid tier and smaller companies. It's ultimately, you know, going back to that first question, right? Where does the buck stop? Who owns it?

Speaker B: Right, right.

Speaker C: Whoever owns that capture is responsible for the stratcoms piece and whether or not they do it themselves, if they have the skill set or whether or not they bring in a specialist to do it. But that's where just like that capture manager owns the bd, the govrel, the engineering, all the other pieces, they're the owner of the Stratcoms. That's where the buck stops. And you know it. Every business has to decide for themselves what the most effective use of the resource is.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm kind of convinced these days that with commercial companies popping on the scene and the big, you know, LLM, um, companies sort of dominating in different ways and penetrating the market from different angles. I've been talking a lot about the change from BDN capture to go to market because these commercial companies, they don't do long drawn out captures. This is not like we're very trained in govcon to do it that way but you know, if you're talking to a silicon, silicon, uh, Valley company, they're going to put together a go to market strategy and they're going to follow it very consistently. They're going to measure their results and then they're going to improve some things and they're going to do it again, you know. And so I feel like govcon needs to adopt this go to market strategy and best practices. And one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you is I think strategic communications needs to be an element not only for those medium sized and the bigs, but also for small businesses. Just like there was a rise of the small business marketing manager, this is like one element of it, right? Like what kind of company are you?

Speaker A: Who cares?

Speaker B: Like how are you getting in front of your customer base? And it's like whose job is it to do that? So I think this has been a really good conversation so far. So let's hop to the next question.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Uh, what's a common misconception that folks have about making money in government contracting? And I would love to have you debunk it.

Speaker C: Okay. Well I think in a way this sort of ties back to the previous question which is right I think the common misconception is that the company with the best solution and the lowest price always wins.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: All right. And I'd offer that unless you are in a true lpta, lowest price, technically acceptable shootout, I would say that the company with the best story wins. And sometimes even if you are in an LPTA shootout, LPTA may not always win.

Speaker A: Ah, right.

Speaker C: And I'm not going to name names, but if you've been in like this business for like a nanosecond, you're like, what? How did those, you know, no talent clowns win? Yeah. And if, uh, you know, yeah. You know the line from Office Space, how did those guys, you know, how did they win? And I think that it's truly, it's the company with the best story wins. Because here's the deal. The companies with the best, with the edge, they're not just out there responding to RFPs, right. They are shaping the capture environment. And storytelling is key to that. So backing up to your earlier question, right. Part of that, it's a key part of that, the research piece, understanding the needs and motivations of your audience. If you can understand that, know what makes your audience tick, you're going to be able to develop unaffective approach. So can I tell you a story about a story?

Speaker B: You know, stories about stories are uh, my favorite stories. Please do.

Speaker C: Okay. So I was running the strategic comms effort for a capture around a competition that was worth over $40 billion. That's billion with a B. And two other company solutions were being considered. So you know, my then employer had the best technical solution and they were the only company that who could deliver what the customer had asked for when they wanted it. Right?

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: So the other competitors, they're out there running around behind, doing like all their behind the scenes BD and govrel stuff, trying to water down the evaluation criteria because that's how the game is played. They weren't doing that at all. They were out there publicly talking about how great their solution was. So you already had this storytelling disconnect from their side, the strategic comms disconnect that they were doing on our side. Instead of running a comms campaign, focused on why the technology was the best. Because you know, we've done the research and had that insight. I built a calm strategy that was focused on getting the message out to the customer that they didn't have to settle, that they didn't have to compromise on capability or schedule. So the story that we were telling them reminded them that this wasn't a Competition about keeping American industry happy. It was a competition about giving the US and its allies a, uh, solution that was light years ahead of the Chinese and Russian threat. And, you know, then that sort of leads them to that question, which is, how do you feel that kind of solution? You run a damn tough competition without watering down the evaluation criteria. There were all these tactics around this, right? Like, there was media engagement, all this sort of stuff. Media engagement, thought leadership, social, digital, all the sorts of things that you would expect, like a, uh, communications campaign to have. But they were done in alignment to this broader comm. Strat comms approach, which was laddered up and nested under this broader capture strategy. And going back to your question, how could I tell that we were being successful? I knew that we were being successful twofold. One, we started seeing these public statements by the customers, and they weren't talking about the competition, they were talking about the threat. And then we had this really very public statement by a very senior DoD official talking about, man, we need an accelerated competition. And then, like, I knew that we had. I knew that we had succeeded. The PSD resistance, like the RFP dropped, and not only did the customer keep the requirements hard, they actually raised the bar. Like, they.

Speaker B: They were like, nice.

Speaker C: They're like, we see. Yeah. So the cus. You know, what we saw was the customer rejected this false narrative that the competitors were putting out, and they went all in on the story that, no, we're not going to compromise the standard. So then, you know, at that point, and this is why, like, look, the engineers, first and foremost, brilliant engineers, delivered the solution, you know, uh, at a price point that aligned with what the customer wanted on the timeline that they wanted. But we're able to get to that standpoint because the story was able to shape that competition environment. And so, again, that's one of those things that, you know, we do at Fortis, is we really help those. Help that storytelling frame up the competition and align so that the customers, you know, that the clients, that they have a higher P win because they're able to deliver those things to the customer.

Speaker B: So did you win?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker C: Nice.

Speaker B: These, uh, kind of, uh. And I have to go back to say, again, it really feels like something that bigger companies would do. Right. And the smaller companies, they complain a lot. I know, because I used to do it too, when I was working for smaller businesses about not being able to get in front of the right people to tell the right story at the right time. So it's always like, the people, what story are we telling? And then the timing piece. Right. But getting all of those working together is really hard. And like you said, it's like a full time job because it's not just like, oh, we're going to get on LinkedIn and we're going to post this. You know, and especially in this day and age, you see a lot of companies post like announcing wins on LinkedIn and you're just like, like, read the room, man. This is not the time, it's not the year to be posting things like this on LinkedIn. Like, oh, I, I jumped in my private jet and took our executives to like an island this weekend. Like, dude, yeah. You know, and so, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: And to your point, like, I mean, it's not just, I, my opinion, I don't think it's just something that the big companies do and there are smaller companies that do this and are willing to invest the time and resources, but it's the sort of thing where thinking about this, it's one, it's okay, if I have a small marketing department, are they doing it right or am I using them to hand out tchotchkes at trade shows which wind up in the, you know, in the junk bin, or am I doing things that can connect meaningfully with my customers? So part of that is just making sure that you have the right team on board. And that's key, right? Is making sure. But then the other part is making sure that the team you have is being deliberate, thoughtful and strategic and figuring out where is the best place to put your resources. It's. Is it worth it to, you know, that's something every business has to decide. But is boosting the P win worth making the investment in people, time, energy and resources? And that's something every business has to decide for themselves. But I'll say this, there are small businesses that do that and do it very effectively. One of my clients, it's more on the commercial side, but they're willing, they're a small commercial startup and they're willing to make that kind of an investment. And it's really, again, like, I don't know, do you get the most bang for your buck just handing out tchotchkes at trade shows?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Or could I be more strategic and if I focused and aligned, sort of the capture and the effort, all the different pieces of the puzzle and spent time doing that, could we win and could that boost our P win?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: That's a company every, that's a, that's something that every company has to answer for themselves.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. Thank you so much. This has been super great. We're going to hop to our next question. So think about your network. What's been the most effective approach for building a strong network and turning the connections into mutually beneficial relationships?

Speaker C: So first I just have to say, like, I love this question so much. And I'll just start with the philosophical first. Maybe I can give some tactical first. I think the philosophical is don't approach networking as networking, approach it as being human. Right. Because I. I think a lot of times people are like, they approach us from a transactional standpoint. Right. And if I go to an event or a trade, whatever sort of thing and I meet a bunch of people and I pitch them, you know, they're like, I'm gonna go to the streets, I'm gonna meet these people, sell them something. I'm gonna go on LinkedIn and spam a bunch of people with cold outreach. And I mean, I don't know, maybe you're gonna sell if the person is ready to buy whatever it is you're selling right there. But I don't think that's first off. I don't think that's a good way to build a meaningful relationship.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: You know, and like, that's sort of the approach. If I go into the store and I want to buy a stick of gum, like, I'll be friendly to the clerk and they'll be friendly.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: But that's it. So. So the tactical for me, like, I really approach this from a place of curiosity and learning. Um, right. Which is very different from the hey, can I pick your brain? Sort of Conversation. Because that's transactional. That's just trying to get knowledge that's locked inside. It's a perspective of I'm going to have some sort of engagement with this person. And I think this person has something to teach me that I can learn a value from them as a human. And it may have absolutely nothing to do with govcon. It may absolutely be of no value to me from this standpoint that I'm going to. It's going to help me sell whatever it is I'm selling, but it's going to help me become a better human or get more enjoyment out of life. It's this perspective. Like, if I'm at a trade show, I'll just walk around. If I see, like, I'll just see something or see some. Like, I don't stop at every. Like, I'll just stop because I see something that's really cool and I'm like, hey, what's this? Tell me about it. Because I want to learn. And maybe, like, I'm just going to hoover up that knowledge, and it's like something like that. And then the flip side of that is I approach this from a, uh, what can I give this person? What can I share with this person that's of value to them? And it's not the thing that I'm selling. It's, how can I be of service to them? Because I'm listening to them and I'm hearing about them. And it might be, oh, wow, this person's really into books or craft. Like, okay, here's a cool book I read. I hope you enjoy it. And it's. It goes back like, let's just build a connection as a human, as human beings. And like, if the. To me, at least, if the person is a decent human being and it's somebody worth pursuing a relationship with, like, the business side of things will sort of flow organically. Or they won't, but, like, right. Like, if they're not, like, I don't want to. I don't know. I don't want to do business with a jerk. I don't know.

Speaker B: Maybe.

Speaker C: Yeah, like, so I don't know.

Speaker B: I think your advice about, like, going into it from, like, a giver perspective, not like a taker perspective, is really good for younger people, especially, because they just feel awkward walking into a group of people and just being like, oh, hey, I'm this, you know, person you don't know. It's nice to meet you. But then you have to talk about your work, which feels transactional. But really what you were saying was, like, show up as a human first, not just, like, your job title or, you know, this or that. And it really is, like, more of an art, I think, than a science to do this really well and to get people to like you, believe you and trust you.

Speaker C: Yeah, it is. It's weird. It is. And it isn't, like, agree with you, because I think the key piece here, and you said it, It's. It's to be authentic, right? Because this is like what we just talked about. It's also what every single snake oil salesman on the planet does. Like, you know, and I hope I'm not offending anybody, but you, like, walk into some of these, you know, like. And again, uh, I'm not trying to offend anybody. Like the stereotypical used car salesman sort of thing with the plaid jacket and all that sort of stuff, and they're like. But the thing is, like, you can Tell they really don't care about you. And that's the diff. Like it's, it's you really, it. You just have to approach this from a giving perspective to your point and a genuine, like, I'm really interested. Like I want to know. Not like, I'm just listening to see. Okay. They've. Okay, check the box. Ask him, um, do you have kids? Like, no. Yeah, that's how. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I do think you're very good at it. I think it goes back to storytelling in general because the first story you have to get straight is the story of you. Right. I learned that early on, interviewing with people. And you know, somebody's always going to ask you, like, well, tell me about yourself. Right. I love that question when I'm interviewing folks because it's like there's so many things to pick from. Do you pick how, uh, you got to where you are, your previous job? Do you like, which story do you tell? So it really does come back again to being a good storyteller and a good communicator.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well said.

Speaker B: All right, I'm gonna jump, um, to our last question. Looking ahead. What emerging opportunities do you see and how can others take advantage of them?

Speaker C: Yeah. So I, I think there's sort of two ways to look at this, right? Like, maybe I can kind of give you the philosophical and then I'll the practical, if that's okay. So the philosophical is, look, there's, you know, there, there's all the sort of hot new things that will probably still, you know, emerging technologies, you know, and emerging programs that are hot today and in a few years won't. I mean, won't, won't be. And then sort of layer, you know, whatever, pick a technology like AI it's hot. UAS is counter us all those sorts of things. And those aren't going away anytime soon, of course. And then you sort of layer that on top, at least in my sector, space, aerospace and defense in the govcon world, like it's all layered on top of the threat. Right. China, Russia, uh, you know, the usual folks. And so you can kind of, you kind of think about that. And there's going to be different things in that from where I see the opportunity is that. And again, this goes back to sort of why I started the business is that I really, I see the bigs using strategic communications as a differentiator and as an opportunity. I don't see a lot of the mediums in smalls using it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So it's, to me, that's like the big differentiator, or if they're using it, they're just like, hiring, oh, hey, here's a really cool agency that I worked with that does that did great stuff in Silicon Valley. And then you get into govcon and they're trying the same playbook, and because they don't know the difference between a peo and a and a leo, uh, it's noise, but it's not signal. And so that, to me, that's the opportunity is really using strategic communications integrated into those broader capture elements as a key differentiator. I think that's a huge. I think that's a huge competitive advantage that, that people in this space have that they can take advantage of to boost their p win.

Speaker B: I love it. Well, thank you so much, Mike, for being on the show today. Catch us next time on govcom Unfiltered. And until then, we'll see you soon.

Speaker C: M.