The Physical Toll of a Toxic Workplace with Jane Phipps

Jane Phipps: So that my big takeout was rather than me learning, oh, uh, this is what abuse, this is not normal. What I learned was I'm not treating people like that. I never want people that work for me or with me or I'm in a relationship with to feel like this. So I learned the complete opposite. So I learned how to lead from the heart and treat from the heart with kindness and trust, uh, and respect. And that's the other part of my book. Then how I flipped. I took all this and rather than becoming an abuser myself, I did the opposite and, um, learned to lead from the heart.

Sadhana Smiles: Welcome to Future Fit Leadership, a podcast for leaders at every stage who want to stay relevant in a world that keeps changing. Leadership has shifted. The pace is faster, the expectations are higher, and the future is calling for a different kind of leader. One who is human centered, grounded and able to balance capability with empathy. These conversations bring together global perspectives on the skills and mindsets that help people and organizations thrive. Hello and welcome to Future Fit Leadership. I hope wherever you are listening to this podcast, you are well. Imagine walking into work and feeling your body react before your mind has caught up. Your chest tightens, your energy drops, and something in you says, this isn't right. Even if you can't quite explain why. In the conversation. Today, I sit down with Jane Phipps, who shares a deeply personal story of workplace bullying and the toll it takes over time. Jane has spent more than 20 years across education, government and the not for profit sector. But what she shares here is not just a career story, it's a human one. She takes us into a moment where the pressure became overwhelming, where simply walking into the office triggered such an intense fear response that her body gave way beneath her. And what makes this conversation so important is it is not rare we talk about the silence that often surrounds bullying, the shame that comes with it, uh, the way people start to question themselves, stay longer than they should, and try to cope in environments that are slowly or wearing them down. But this is not just about what goes wrong. Jane shares how she began to recognise the patterns, how she learned to speak about it, how she rebuilt her approach to leadership. Her perspective is grounded in a simple idea that leadership can be kinder, more aware and more human. We also explore the small behaviours leaders often overlook, the moments that either build trust or. Or quietly break it, and the responsibility leaders hold when it comes to creating environments where people feel safe to show up fully. This is a conversation about courage, the kind that asks you to face what is uncomfortable and choose a Very different way forward. If you have ever questioned a workplace dynamic or wondered what good leadership looks like in practice, this conversation with Jane Phipps will resonate. Hello Jane. Welcome to Future Fit Leadership. Lovely to have you with us. How are you today?

Jane Phipps: I'm well. Thank you Sadhana for having me here. It's lovely to be able to speak on my favourite topics again.

Sadhana Smiles: You've spent more than 20 years working across education, government and the not for profit sector and now you're doing a whole range of other things. Before we get into talking about your favourite things, tell us about what you're doing at the moment.

Jane Phipps: Well, I've actually gone back to work, which is really nice, but I spend some of my other time still writing. You know, I'm still writing about my book and about my topics in my book and I write a few articles and I am a featured writer on something called the Star Network in America. Uh, it's survivors of toxic abusive relationships and they have a not for profit over there and I'm the featured workplace writer on, on there. So I, I spend my time writing articles and I still mentor people. People ring me up for advice and just to have a chat and I do a lot of LinkedIn post and one of the best things that's happened to me lately since I've written this book is um, people actually say thank you. They don't necessarily comment on LinkedIn but a lot of people saying thank you, thank you for bringing the topic up and talking about these topics so that it gives us a space to talk about it and how much they enjoy just reading my articles and, and my post. And it's actually quite a sense of joy. It really is, it's very humbling, very humbling at the same time as. Oh that's ah, really nice.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah. Tell us about your book.

Jane Phipps: Uh, my book is the Heart Centered Leader and it's a um, semi autobiographical leadership book. So it's kind of, it's in two veins. I start writing about my history and about my childhood because I was brought up by a narcissistic father and I was bullied at home and at school and then I do going into the workplace where I didn't know what abuse, what it looked like not to be in an abusive situation because I'd grown up in that environment. So then I started uh, feeling it from male dominated. I went into the defense industry straight out of uni and I did a math degree so I was surrounded by men at university and then I went to into defense as a mathematician. So Surrounded by men, and all I knew was my father, my father's style. And then I started realizing the older I got, more in these environments I've worked in, ah, this is actually toxic workplaces. This is toxic, um, abuse. And it probably took me well into my 40s to really click, um, what I knew and what I didn't know.

Sadhana Smiles: Because you, you talk about and you write about how you know, you have a strong belief that the best leaders are the ones who lead with heart, and you based it on your experiences.

Jane Phipps: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so what I learned from all that abuse and that toxic, abusive workplaces and relationships was I never wanted to treat people like that. So that my big takeout was rather than me learning, oh, this is what abuse, this is not normal. What I learned was I'm not treating people like that. I never want people that work for me or with me or I'm in a relationship with to feel like this. So I learned the complete opposite. So I learned how to lead from the heart and treat from the heart with kindness and trust, uh, and respect. And that's the other part of my book. Then how I flipped. I took all this and rather than becoming an abuser myself, I did the opposite and learned to lead from the heart.

Sadhana Smiles: Can you take us back to a moment in your career where you realize that, you know, because of the environments that you were in and the experiences that you were having, that you're no longer coping, but probably only just surviving?

Jane Phipps: I can tell you the exact moment something changed. And I do write about this. I, uh, was in a fairly senior position in the organization I worked for, and my boss went on, uh, leave. He went on leave for about a month and I was left in charge and everything was fine. I thought everything was fine. I did the job, I did well. And then he came back. And the day he came back and I walked into the office and I saw him and I knew it was going to come at me, that I'd actually been okay at his job while he was away. And I actually realized then the fear that I worked in and I literally collapsed. I actually went to the floor and the minute I saw him. And that's kind of where my brain shifted, like, this really isn't normal. And people came to help me and my best friend took me to my, to my gp and I actually never went back into that workplace. Um, but that was, I mean, that was a very dramatic way of, of, um, finally learning this is not normal.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah, it's. It's an interesting thing, right? Because toxic Workplaces do exist, and they exist in various forms of behavior. And it could be, you know, bullying, it could be the way that you are treated, it could be emotional, it could be physical. Like, it's, it's a whole range of ways that toxic workplaces play out. What I find is that most of the time people have a coping mechanism and so they come into work and they, and they find a way to cope with that environment. But at some point in time, everything completely breaks down. Which is what's happened to you? What happened post that, you know, like, how did you come back into the workplace? How did you decide what, draw a line in the ground for yourself to say that if this ever happened again, or if I am exposed to something like this again, this is how I'm going to cope with it. So your tolerance levels for something like that was completely reduced.

Jane Phipps: What I learned, uh, from that first experience, because it did happen to me again, I'm clearly a slow learner. It did happen to me again. But what I did learn from that first experience was to talk. Because along with bullying comes shame. And shame is often the hidden side of bullying that we don't talk about. The fact that you're in a workplace and you've been bullied, well, what's wrong with me? Am, um, I not good enough? You're playing into the bullying. You're playing into what you're being told. So that the shame is quite strong and lonely. And I think the first time it happened to me, I might have bitched and moaned about my boss, as you know, we all do like, we do. But I never really talked about it. And I learned from men, you need to talk about it outside of work. Go find a girlfriend outside of work and just say, this is what's happening. And that, that's when I learned, um, what's normal and what's not normal, what other people experienced. And I think, um, talking to, just to a close friend, it was really, really different. I also got therapy. I also started doing physical exercises. You know, there's a lot of things you can do for self care. But I think that was a game changer for me when I broke through the shame and the loneliness and almost said, hey, I've got to confess, something's been happening to me.

Sadhana Smiles: How did you get the second time go, why am I doing this to myself again?

Jane Phipps: I did say, why am I doing this again? But I learned quickly to talk like, I had a therapist almost right from the word go. So I was talking to a therapist and I was Talking to my best mates right from the word go. But I stayed in that role because it was serving my career, or so I thought. And also as a single income person with a mortgage, um, I had to go, well, I need to keep doing this until I get another role that I can move to because I've got to, I've got to maintain my income and I just didn't get one quick enough.

Sadhana Smiles: You talk about when you are in that toxic environment, your body reacts faster than your mind catches up. Yeah, I find that intriguing. Talk to me more about that.

Jane Phipps: Nearly in every instance where I've been bullied, I tend to put weight on and I almost don't see it until I go, oh, I'm not a doctor, I don't know. But to me it's a defense mechanism that your body is putting weight on. I get dizzy spells. That's now one of my first indicators. If I get a dizzy spell, I go, hang on a minute, what's going on with your nervous system? I'm not listening to myself. My m. The weak point of my body is my sinuses. So I tended to get in that first instance where I told you my sinuses were so bad I was having antibody injections because of the sinus infections and I still didn't listen to my body. So, um, I think the weakest points of your body start to, to show. That's what I've noticed and I know do listen.

Sadhana Smiles: Did you ever have a conversation with those leaders or organizations about the impact they had on you?

Jane Phipps: No, no, I've never gone back. And you'll notice I'm not mentioning any names. No, I've never gone back. I've actually talked to them in the room as they're not here and had a conversation. Got some stuff off my chest that I wanted to say, but I've never done it face to face.

Sadhana Smiles: When you talk about survival mode versus heart mode and how leaders can recognize when they're operating in survival mode, what is that like? If I was the leader and I was leading in survival mode, but didn't have the self awareness to recognize that, what are some of the signs that I should be looking out for?

Jane Phipps: I think one of the biggest signs is fear as a leader. If you have someone working for you or someone you're working with and you suddenly go, oh, I don't trust that. What's going on there? Uh, and fear response comes in and you feel you need to control the situation, then you're not in your heart, you're in fear mode. You're in control mode, you're in survival mode. And, and that's not belittling those people that do that because sometimes the environment that we work in creates that. But it's a good thing to be self aware of. Like, uh, is that me? Is it the environment? Is this person actually a threat? M. Like, is this, this person who works for me actually doing the wrong thing? What's my role in this? And I mean, that's quite a cognitive load to be doing that. But it's not when you get used to it.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah.

Jane Phipps: If you live in your heart and you're not used to it, like, my first response now is, what's going on here? This is a two way interaction. What, what's going on here? Yeah, what's my role? Yeah.

Sadhana Smiles: We talk a lot about psychological safety in workplaces. It is beyond a buzzword because I think at some point it was a bit of a buzzword. But now, you know, we legally have to make sure that we have psychological safe workplaces. From your experience, how do you know when psychological safety is genuinely present in an organization or a team?

Jane Phipps: I, uh, feel physically safe and mentally safe and emotionally safe in a psychologically safe environment. There's a lot of safe in that. But if I can go into a meeting at any level and say, I actually disagree and I'd like to bring up another point, if I feel comfortable enough to be able to say that and people are respectful enough to listen and it doesn't matter whether I'm right or wrong, I'm just alone to have an opinion, that's a psychologically safe environment to me. Um, if I can go into an environment and say, hey, I think there's a different way to do this, do you mind if I have a go at it and. And they go, go for it. And it fails or succeeds, but either way it's celebrated, to me, that's a safe environment. I feel emotionally safe and intellectually safe enough to bring myself to work and go, I want to play here all, all for the power of good. I think we can do this better. I think there's a, a way we can challenge this. But I've been in environments where when I've gone to, well, I have said, I think there's a better way, or in my experience, I've seen it done like this. And he shut down so fast that the next time you go into meeting, you just sit there and don't say anything that's not psychologically safe.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah. What are some of the small invisible behaviors that Leaders underestimate that can actually, um, destroy safety very, very quickly.

Jane Phipps: That's a really good question. I think. Destroy safety. In my mind, how I like to create safety is. Is the human factor. If you walk into the room, make sure you say, good morning to people, say hello to people. It doesn't do you any harm to say, hey, even if it's, hey, everyone, how you going? And walk into a room being human. Show your vulnerability. Show that you're a human, that you're a person. And. But I think the lack of that creates almost a fear. It's almost an ignorant. A leader walks into a room or walks through a room and they don't look at people and they don't acknowledge people. It creates that. Oh, they're unapproachable. I, uh, can't talk to them. I have an issue. I can't talk to them about it. I think it's just some simple things. Stopping to say, oh, I know your mum had an operation last week. How's it going? You know, she. Is she all right? Just simple, be human.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah, Be human. Be a good human. I had one of my guests not that long ago that I interviewed exact. Use those exact same words, just be a good human, you know? And a good human is a range of behaviors that genuinely shows that you care about the people who work with you. And that doesn't mean you never have the hard conversations, but you have the hard conversations with care.

Jane Phipps: And you can have the hard conversations because you've built that rapport.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah.

Jane Phipps: And you've shown some care. So if you have to say to someone, hey, we have to have a chat, just let's go for a coffee. They're not coming from it. From a place of fear. Yeah. It's a respectful conversation.

Sadhana Smiles: What I find interesting is a lot of leaders would never, like. We never get taught emotional literacy, like, most of us have become leaders because we've worked our way up the, you know, climb the corporate ladder. We grew up in environments or learned in environments that were toxic, you know, um, and where it wasn't emotionally or psychologically safe. So how can leaders build a capability like emotional literacy without feeling inadequate or exposed?

Jane Phipps: That's a really good question. Let me counter it with another question or another thought, if m. You don't mind.

Sadhana Smiles: No, go for it.

Jane Phipps: Why aren't we picking people with those qualities to become leaders? Why do we pick people without those qualities to become leaders and then expect them to change who they are?

Sadhana Smiles: M. That's a good question. Is it because we're Picking people who are just like us in organizations. So there's already an underlying environment of poor behavior. So you know, we think it's okay, so we pick another person that's just like us or do we genuinely think that it doesn't matter or the person will change?

Jane Phipps: I think there's an element to both. But I also think, I don't know that that leadership is considered a technical skill. Like everything else that person's really good at. Sales, for example, the best salesperson, smashing all the metrics, let's put them in charge of the team. Now that person smashed all the metrics because they really loved and were really good at what they did. Uh, do they want to go in charge of the team? Do they have the skills to go in charge of the team? So we often promote people on their ability for their technical skill. Might be the perfect team lead, might be able to teach everyone exactly their technique and it brings the whole team together. But, but let's challenge that thought.

Sadhana Smiles: Emotional intelligence actually does change away. A leader delivers feedback or makes unpopular decisions, doesn't it really?

Jane Phipps: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think emotional intelligence to me allows you to be that human, show kindness, show respect, show care and be able to read the room. If I had to have a hard conversation with someone and I walked in, I went, they're not okay. Something's gone on today, I'm going to park this till tomorrow. That's emotional intelligence to me. You still need to have the hard conversation, but you're doing it in an environment of um, care and understanding. And I think people that lack emotional intelligence can't read that, um, can't read the room, can't read the body language, can't read the signs on the face and I um, would just go in. Anyway,

Sadhana Smiles: I hope you're enjoying our conversation. A quick word from our sponsor. Have you ever wondered how to attract, develop and augment diverse leadership capability in your organization? Well, Future Leadership has a range of leadership solutions including executive search, interim executives, leadership development programs, coaching and workforce transformation specialists. They are an Australian owned B corp and one of very few globally accredited and connected talent solution firms. They are very proud of their 22 year history bringing more diverse leadership to Australian decision making tables. See the link in our show notes to get in touch with them. So Jane, if I was interviewing someone to lead my organization or take on a, you know, senior executive role, like there isn't a piece of paper that we say, uh, I've gone to university and I've learned all about emotional intelligence and I can tick that box. Thank you. I've got that skill set yet it is a critical skill set that we need in leadership.

Jane Phipps: Right.

Sadhana Smiles: So how do I test for it? And if it is lacking and I still want to bring them into the organization, how do I train on it?

Jane Phipps: Well, the first thing I do to look for it is not in the interview, it's in the small talk. Mhm. Like, you know, thank you for being here. Did you get here on the tram today or is Zoom working? Okay, whatever the small talk is at the beginning, um, the interview started. The interview started. The way you interacted when you booked your meeting and you know, when you answered the phone call to book the meeting, to book the interview. That's how I look for aq. Because then you get into technical answers. M. But all that small talk at the beginning is really whether they smile. I mean, they still might be nervous, but do they smile? Are they confident enough to ask a question back like, um, yeah, I called the tram. Did you? How do you find the tram this morning? It was really busy. Or to me, I'm reading eq, I'm, um, I'm testing there. And also in their technical answers, you can see some personality knowing that nerds are probably a part of it.

Sadhana Smiles: And then how would I train for it in my organization?

Jane Phipps: Well, quite frankly, if I didn't see that level of eq, I'd be, I'd be really challenging whether they come in or not, particularly. M. At the leadership level. Um, but if they came in anyway, it might be a bit harsh on my, my part. Maybe it's my experience. Um, but if I don't think you can train for it, but I think you can scaffold it. Yeah. Yeah.

Sadhana Smiles: How would you scaffold it?

Jane Phipps: I lead by example. M. Lead by example. But let's go for coffee and talk about what it. And then show, show the culture. The culture is that you take your people out for coffees and talk to them and then that's okay. We all, we all encourage that. It's not a time waster. It's a community builder. It's um, you know, make it have some morning teas where you're learning people's names and your. The pets. And everyone has a dog these days after Covid or a cat. True, very true, very true. Lead by example. M Demonstrate.

Sadhana Smiles: So you talk about accountability. What's the difference between holding people accountable, accountable that strengthens them, versus accountability that shuts them down?

Jane Phipps: Oh gosh, that's a toughie. I'm going to Say collaboration.

Sadhana Smiles: Mhm.

Jane Phipps: If I'm talking to someone and go, what are your goals? What are your goals for the week? What are your goals for the month? What are your goals for the year? Uh, and you co design, you have a conversation and you co design. Is that achievable? How are you going to do it then? I can hold them accountable for that because they promised and we've had a discussion and your weekly, monthly, six monthly check ins, um, holding them accountable to their promise, to our agreed goal and if they say look, we were wrong, I'm um, off track, we need to change, then that's okay, carry on having the conversation. But if I as a leader go, I want this, this, this, this and this and you don't gain buy in and you don't have a conversation then holding them accountable to that is a bit unfair and it's possibly going to shut them down. Some people might rise to the challenge. I might be good at setting accountabilities but I am a big believer in that co design, that buy in, working together, uh, partnering for an outcome. Because at the end of the day we're all there for the organization and for the people the organization serves.

Sadhana Smiles: I want to go back to the toxic leadership uh conversation because you are particularly vocal about the impact toxic leadership has on women, women's careers and in particular people from marginalized background who simply can't walk away. Why do you think that the reality is so uncomfortable for organisations to face?

Jane Phipps: I think it comes down to the culture. It's scary to face it, scary to say, to suddenly admit that leader um, has had this impact on all these people. How do we as an organisation admit we've done the wrong thing and that leader's got to go? Very brave organisation that's that gets, shoots the leaders, gets rid of the leaders and do it. So I think it's just difficult for them to go. We've had a 40% turnover and they're all females that have left. I m mean hopefully the psychological safety laws, the new legislation will help organizations gather data, analyze data and act on data to start understanding these patterns. So uh, I mean that's a long winded answer. I probably haven't answered it well but I think 1 organisations aren't courageous enough. 2 I don't think they gather the data, I don't think they look for it and look for the patterns and I don't know that they want to.

Sadhana Smiles: I think they're very critical points because as you say it's really hard to move on a Leader for a whole bunch of reasons. But then if you're not collecting the data or if you are getting the data because they've had 40% of your female staff leave and you choose to ignore it because it's the easiest thing to do, it is going to have an impact on the culture of the organisation and it becomes this cycle.

Jane Phipps: It's still feeding. I was just gonna say that. It's self feeding, man. That's why it's very brave for a new leader to come in and then go, oh no, I, I've, I've got to, I've got to do something here. Um, yeah.

Sadhana Smiles: What happens? Or you know, from what you've seen, what actually, you know, talking about the people from marginalized backgrounds are quite often don't have a choice to simply walk away because it's not as easy for them to get another role and you know, they're in that job because they might need to get a level of experience before they can walk away and get another job. What happens to them when they stay in unsafe places?

Jane Phipps: I can tell you from my experience. I was a single mum, I had my daughter when I was 20 so I put myself through university and then went into the workplace and My daughter was 6. When I went into the workplace I couldn't leave, I couldn't leave my organization and because I had to pay the rent, I had to clothes, feet, I had to look after my daughter. So in those early days, like I said, I didn't really realize it was toxic but I knew I wasn't happy. I thought, gosh, this is what, what working life is like. I want to go back to university forever. That, that sort of thinking. I stayed because when I needed the income and two, it was, well, if I leave this place now, where do I go to? I haven't got enough on my cv, I haven't got enough experience to go somewhere else. I'm very lucky to be here. And that, that's a big mental. Was a big mentality of my. But I'm very lucky, you know, they've got me, they've hired me, they must trust me. I'm very lucky to be here and I was the only female in the building at that stage. I'm very lucky to be here. It's that mindset, isn't it, that you know, single parent, female, how privileged am I that they hired me?

Sadhana Smiles: Can't rock the boat because I can't afford to be. But how did it affect your performance?

Jane Phipps: I'm an overachiever. I learned to Be an overachiever. Very, very young because I thought overachieving would save me. That's how I learned that as a child. If I over my achieve my dad wouldn't um, use me as a scapegoat. What I learned, what I should have learned as a child when I overachieved, the shining light was me, not my dad. And I was slapped back down into place. I should have learned that as a child because what I did at work was I overachieved. And what did the bosses do, particularly the male bosses? Slapped me back down into place. Yeah, I got told off for asking for more work because I'd got through my work when I was very young, um, when I just got into the workplace, I'd done my work in three days and you know, obviously you need to give me more. And I was quite frankly given us talking to. Yeah. And it's been more than once I've been told you're showing up other people. And then one day I went to work for an American company and they said what, what, how can we help you do do this faster? And I said give me two computers, I can be doing two things at once. Next day there was two computers there and I thought uh, ah, that was another learning moment.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah, different environment again.

Jane Phipps: But it did, it made me an over performer. And that's not necessarily a good thing. No, it's not a good thing. Not when you drive yourself because you think that's your protection. Everyone's got to love me. No one' to, to bully me or victimize me if I'm, if I'm really good at my job.

Sadhana Smiles: I think there's a part of leadership that we perhaps don't talk about enough. Which is that when you know, you take on a leadership role, you actually hold power over the people who work in your team or in your organization about their financial security, about their well being and about their sense of safety. And they three really critical things that we hold uh, the balance of power on.

Jane Phipps: Yeah, it's very true. It's very, very true. And I, I say it several times in my book and I will say it for the rest of my career. People should be alone and to be safe to bring the whole selves to work. Uh, so you, they shouldn't feel like you hold power. They should feel like they're coming to work not as a home, not as a family. You know, it's definitely different. But it's a trust. Let's go back to trust. People should be able to come to work trusting that they can bring their whole selves to work and they've got financial issues, they've got personal issues, they can still come to work and work and be okay.

Sadhana Smiles: Mhm. Yeah.

Jane Phipps: And if something does change, you have trust and respect with your leadership that they'll have a conversation. Yeah.

Sadhana Smiles: You've said the future of leadership isn't harder, it's braver, kinder and more accountable and certainly more self aware. I'm interested to know from your experience and your opinion, what does bravery in leadership actually look like?

Jane Phipps: Vulnerability. I think it's vulnerability and trust. So my style of leadership when I run a team is you're all the experts. You're the experts in your field. I'm your manager or your leader and I'm going to trust you to be you and you do the work. You come to me and tell me what you need, tell me if it's not going right and, and you've got, I've got your back, we'll do it, we'll do it together. And I think for a lot of leaders that you need to be very brave to do that. Um, because there is an expectation in leadership that you're the expert, that you know everything and if you've got a large team, you can't know everything. And you want your people to be the experts. That's why they're there. Your job is to see the umbrella, how that one fix that one. Yeah. Not, not be able to dive in and do the accounts. For a lot of leaders that I've come across that's a very brave. They have to be very brave to admit. I don't know. I'm going to have to ask my people and I'll come back to you.

Sadhana Smiles: As we work towards 2030, which isn't that far away, which is a scary thought in itself. What leadership behaviors do you hope we will leave behind as we get closer to 2030?

Jane Phipps: I hope that controlling behaviors and micromanagements left behind and trust comes up. And I start in my book by talking about the industrial revolution because that's my background. I'm from Manchester. I m wasn't there in the industrial resolution. I'm not that old but I'm from, I'm from Manchester, but you look that. That's where factory started hogging the wheel. You know, do this and you do this and you do this and you know, you, you were scared if you, you know those people were scared to rock the boat. They just went to work and they did. There were robots. Um, I don't believe We've moved on from that in a lot of ways. We may be office work, more office based now. We may work from home a lot, but there's still a lot of that behavior of you come to work at this time, you do your job, you're a cog in the wheel, you go home, and it's still that almost manufacturing mindset, even in office space. That's where I think it needs to change. We're evolving as humans. We're evolving as, uh, workplaces. Look what Covid did to us. We now have more trust to work from home. And it's worked so well for a lot of people. And it was really hard for a lot of leaders to start control, letting go and trusting. But I think it serves all of us. I think it serves the leader themselves. If they can let go of the need to let go, you know, uh, to hold on. If they can let go of the need to hold on, it's. It's very freeing and it be. It's very freeing for your team to know I'm safe, I'm trusted, I can do my job. And I'd love us to work towards that, that sort of kindness. It's kind, isn't it? What I'm describing is kindness.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah. M. Yeah. So, Jane, we've come to a point in our podcast which we call the Spotlight Shuffle. I've got, uh, if you were sitting in front of me, you would have a fishbowl to pick the numbers out of. But we're doing this digitally, so I've got 20 questions, got about four numbers that you can pick. So pick a number and I will ask a question against it.

Jane Phipps: 16.

Sadhana Smiles: What's a compliment or piece of feedback that was given to you that you've never forgotten?

Jane Phipps: This is a strange one, but I'm going to share it with you. The first time that the. The example I gave where I. When my manager came back and I collapsed, I'd realized I was being bullied and I wasn't safe. I had some therapy. As part of the therapy, I went to see a psychiatrist. I had one. One session with a psychiatrist. And I walked in and sat down and talking to him. What was happened? And he said to me, and I have shared this advice with many people. He said to me, I'm going to give you one piece of advice, one thing for you to remember. And this is what I remember. Women who walk in here because they've been in your situation aren't, um, weak. They are good. They walk in here because they're strong. And they've challenged the system. So just remember that you're strong and you've challenged. There is nothing wrong with you, so go back out there. And I remember that to this day. The fact that he said to me, you were bullied because you're good and because you're strong, not the other way around, is something that changed my thinking and stuck with me and something I pass on m regularly. It's because you're good at your job and because you're strong that this is. That they're coming at you. Yeah.

Sadhana Smiles: And something I guess I want to pick up around this particular point as well is when you know, whether you're a male or female, when you're in that environment and you are in a toxic being bullied or it's a very tox, you quite often choose to leave as opposed to having the discussion around what needs to change and why that person is making you feel that way. And there's probably a whole bunch of other people who feel the same way that you do, but no one's saying anything. You just choose to leave.

Jane Phipps: Right.

Sadhana Smiles: And so organizations lose good, good talent and that behavior becomes more and more toxic because they get to stay, which means that they, in their mind feel that they're right and good people leave. So I'm assuming that's what happened in your environment when you did collapse, you chose to leave.

Jane Phipps: I chose to leave. Yeah, I've done that a couple of times. Chose to leave eventually and. But I think you're right. I think it's those people that are also toxic or also show sycophantic behavior to the toxicity that manage to stay. And so the culture is just self feeding. And the good people go, oh, no, I'm out of here.

Sadhana Smiles: All right, now, uh, the next number.

Jane Phipps: Oh, seven.

Sadhana Smiles: What's the hardest part of leadership? No one talks about enough.

Jane Phipps: It's lonely. Can be very lonely. And that struck me quite quickly. Not at middle management, because you've got up, done and across. Huh. But the more you go up, um, the more, the less people you have to talk to, the more confidences you have to hold, often the more daggers are coming at you. It's lonely. And m. No one prepared me for that.

Sadhana Smiles: Interesting is that a coach of mine once said to me, you know, when you take on that leadership position, you can never whinge down.

Jane Phipps: Yes.

Sadhana Smiles: But whinging up, which is usually to your board or to the chair of your board, winging up is filled with a whole heap of, you know, connotations. Connotations that you probably don't want to face either. So you're right in that way can be very, very lonely. You know, where do you go? You just have to build a good tribe around you, don't you? You do.

Jane Phipps: And I think sometimes you have to build a tribe outside of and get a good mentor and build, uh, a tribe outside. But again, with your mentor, you don't often want to go the let's have too many wines and so start the bad language. You know, your girlfriends are for that. Yeah, yeah. So picking up on something, if you don't mind, I noticed a behavior crept up in me that I didn't like M and that was like you said, you can't winch down. And I was in a place where I was a leadership position and I was being bullied and I noticed my behavior changed downwards and I started to say things I shouldn't have said and I did stop. I did. Right, that's the time to call it. When you can no longer filter, uh, between here and here because that's part of your leadership job. No, you're the umbrella that catches everything so it doesn't go down. And my umbrella got holes in it and it started coming through and, uh, I thought that's not good. This is not good for anybody. It's not good for me, it's not good for them. I'm now doing the opposite to what I've always wanted to do as a leader. And that, um, I called it. You have to call it.

Sadhana Smiles: You have to call it. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well that's great self awareness. Actually, just to end that, that round that conversation off, it's great self awareness because quite often when you get caught up in that, you know, cycle, it's really hard to have a look in the mirror at yourself and say, you know, what elements of this do I control and what can I change?

Jane Phipps: Yeah, that's true. And where am I now perpetuating the situation?

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah, exactly. All right, another number, all three. What's the most exciting possibility you see in the future of leadership or work?

Jane Phipps: Well, I'm very excited by A.I. uh, I know people seem to have a love hate relationship with AI and there's a lot of fear around taking people's jobs and etc. What excites me about AI is what I mentioned earlier about we've come from the industrial revolution where we're all robots and command and control. Things need to change. AI is going to be doing a lot of that transactional work and allows humans to be human. That's my hope. In a leadership position, you will have more ability to be human and your people will have more ability to be human. And all that day to day transactional paperwork shuffling, form filling will be done by AI. You'll be able to pick up the phones and talk to people.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah. More connections.

Jane Phipps: More connections and relationships. That's the word I'm looking for, connection. Um, AI will allow us to have more connections, and I'm hoping that that's at all levels. And it will. The leadership, people in leadership will build those connections. All right.

Sadhana Smiles: Your last number, Jane.

Jane Phipps: Oh, did I say 17 before? Can I have some?

Sadhana Smiles: No, but you can have 17. What's one decision you're proud of even

Jane Phipps: if it wasn't popular to write my book? Yeah.

Sadhana Smiles: Why wasn't it popular or you proud of it? Which part of that?

Jane Phipps: Both. I waited till my dad died to write it. I wanted to write it. I've dabbled at writing it for a while, and it was really. When my dad died.

Sadhana Smiles: I thought you wanted to talk about your experiences growing up.

Jane Phipps: I want to talk about my growing up. And it was not as disrespectful because he was. He was no longer with us. But then when I went into the talking about the workplaces, I think there was some fear out there from people that I was going to spill the beans. Uh-huh. And I had never had any intention of doing that. This is not about. Excuse me. My book is not about punishment. It's not about retribution or getting my own back. It's about telling my story and helping people understand the situation they're in and how it can be different. But I think there was some fear there from some people, and I certainly felt some retribution while in the process of writing it.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah. I think when you are in that position, if you've been bullied or you're working in a toxic environment, it's actually not easy to talk about because invariably, and correct me if I'm wrong, but invariably you feel like it's your response. Even though you're the victim. You take on the responsibility of the environment and you always look at what you're doing wrong.

Jane Phipps: Yeah, absolutely. That. That's absolutely part of being bullied and being the victim is, well, what am I doing wrong? What can I do differently? Maybe I shouldn't have said that. Maybe that was. Maybe I'm stir. You know, maybe I'm doing it on purpose. That's. That's all part of the. The tiredness and the heat that builds up because you're Doing it to yourself. That's. That's lack of psychological safety.

Sadhana Smiles: Yeah. And the other part is if you do bring it out and shine a light on it, usually it's your name that's out in the open, which then impacts any future career potential in sometimes, but not all the time. Whereas the perpetrator quite often doesn't get mentioned at all.

Jane Phipps: Absolutely. Yeah. It's very brave to write a book and start, uh, talking about these topics. Yeah.

Sadhana Smiles: Well, congratulations on writing the book and thank you for sharing, you know, uh, your journey and your experiences with us. I do appreciate that. If people want to connect with you, Jane, what's the best way that they can do that?

Jane Phipps: Uh, they can go to my website, JanePagesAuthor.com my search engine optimization is not good, so type it in.

Sadhana Smiles: Or LinkedIn. I'm assuming they can connect or LinkedIn.

Jane Phipps: Or LinkedIn. Yeah, but the connect. All the connections are on my website. But they can certainly look me up on LinkedIn as well. Yeah.

Sadhana Smiles: Thank you, Jane. Thanks for being on a, uh, part of Future Fit Leadership.

Jane Phipps: Thank you so much for your time. It was lovely. It's lovely to chat to you.

Sadhana Smiles: If you like what you've heard, please share, rate and review this podcast. And don't forget to share it with anyone who might benefit from hearing it. The producer of Future Fit Leadership is Maritza Barone from Guide youe Light Network.

Jane Phipps: If you would like to reach out

Sadhana Smiles: to me, please DM me on any of my social media platforms. I'm available for speaking at conferences or consulting to your business. Future Fit is created in partnership with Future Leadership, a capability ecosystem for boards and executives. If you'd like to join the community and receive a a free takeaway each week, sign up to the Future Exchange app in my show notes. Thank you for having me in your space. This is a Guide youe Light Network production Creating podcasts with purpose.