Rethinking Engagement and Performance: A Systems Perspective

Speaker A: Bring out the talent. Bring out the talent.

Speaker B: Bring out the talent.

Speaker C: Welcome to Bring out the Talent, a podcast featuring learning and development experts discussing innovative approaches and industry insights. Tune in to hear our talent help develop yours. Now here are your hosts, TTA's CEO and President, Maria Melfa, and talent manager, Jocelyn Allen.

Speaker A: Well, you're not quite Maria. Here I go again, guys. Another funny joke about how Maria is starting to look like John or vice versa, but it's not.

Speaker D: Well, you left me with nothing to work with now. Thanks. Sorry.

Speaker A: But we have Johnny Boy joining us again today. Always a fun time for us when he, uh, graces us with his presence. So how you doing?

Speaker D: I'm doing quite well. How about yourself, Jocelyn?

Speaker A: I am doing great. Happy that the weather's turning around finally and that we're getting some sunshine and rainbow, so to speak. Cuz it was dragging for a while there. So happy to be on the other side. Also very happy about today's episode. We're talking about, uh, engagement and performance from a systems perspective. How you can rethink how you are doing it and put it into a process that helps define where you're going. So let's get started. Today's conversation challenges a common assumption that shows up in almost every organization. The idea that engagement and performance are primarily people problems. Research from Gallic Gallup actually shows that only about 23% of employees are engaged at work globally, a number that has remained stubbornly low despite years of investment in culture, leadership and development. In reality, what drives behavior at work is often much less visible. It's the systems behind the scenes, the way meetings are structured, how success is measured, what gets rewarded, and what's getting overlooked. These are the forces that shape how work actually gets done. Joining us today is Justin Robbins, founder and principal analyst at Metric Sherpa. I love the name. Justin has spent over two decades helping organizations strengthen customer experience, optimize operations, and turn insight into execution. His work has been featured by NBC Nightly News, the New York Times, and Forbes, just to name a few, small folks. And he's known for bringing a practical, operator driven perspective to complex organizational challenges. So in this episode of Bring out the Talent, we explore what really drives performance, why so many transformation efforts fall short, and how leaders can start rethinking the systems that shape engagement, burnout, and results. Very excited to have you. Welcome to the show, Justin.

Speaker E: Well, thank you, Jocelyn and John. I'm very excited to be here.

Speaker A: Yes, we're excited to have you. We got a little J. Crew growing on, so we're Obviously off, uh, to a really great J.

Speaker E: Right, I know, what is it about

Speaker A: J names where we just like automatically vibe together. Right, so we're off to a great start, but let's talk a little bit more about your approach and um, your business. So You've spent over 20 years working across customer experience in workplace operations, often seeing where alignment breaks down and strong ideas are struggling to gain traction. From that vantage point, what have you found consistently drives performance inside organizations?

Speaker E: Yeah, it was interesting for me. I've so, I think myself as a bit of an experienced mutt. My, my, my background's been three acts, I guess you'd say. One was operations, one was leading training teams and then uh, working with technology companies. And I don't, I don't know if you've ever had this moment in your career where you, you asked like, is there a common thread through all of the stuff that I do? Like, what's the thing that actually makes me come alive? What is the place where I'm most curious And I had that light bulb moment probably about two and a half years ago. And what I started to realize that the light bulb moment for me is most people that I had worked alongside, that I had managed, heck even myself at one point would say at one point or another it felt like work was working against itself. And so that got me really, really curious and got me to that question of, well, what actually is driving the way that work works inside of businesses? Jonathan? I think in its simple terms it's two things. It's clarity and consequence. And what I see driving performance is really whether people can answer, I'm gonna say positive performance. Let's put that, let's put that, that clarifier out. What I see driving positive performance is when people can, candid, can confidently answer one question. It's how will I know when I've done good work? And what I find is that when people can answer that question without hesitation, when they can act against that question, performance follows. And when they can't, and let's be honest, most can't, you get hesitation, you get self protection and you get this slow erosion of momentum. What, what I think plays out for most businesses is that you've got this system that is teaching people what actually matters. Like it's the work. It's not what you did in onboarding, it's not what you're doing in your one on ones. It is the stuff that you kind of mentioned in the intro. What gets measured, rewarded, escalated or ignored. Like that's what people Actually learn that's what shapes how people perform every day, is how. How has the system kind of been unintentionally engineered to either support or discourage

Speaker D: people from being their best depressing figure from McKinsey. Their research shows that about 70% of organizational transformations fail, and a lot of the leaders often point to behavior as the culprit. So I guess, Justin, when, When you walk into an organization, what, what tells you this is a system problem or this is a people problem?

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker F: So.

Speaker E: So the first thing that I would challenge any, any leader is, is to ask the question of, like, what. What is the structure that we've built and how is that behavior potentially an output of that? Like, that would be the first thing. And what I've discovered is most people haven't been. Been born with a predisposition to be apathetic or disengaged. Like, that's, that's not, that's not how people. Most people are wired. When I go into a business, I. I'm looking at things like, talk to me about turnover within specific roles over a period of time, and do I see that maybe certain jobs or certain departments seem to have, like, high concentrations of turnover? If, uh, I talk to people, are there recurring complaints about the same processes or systems or constraints year after year, and does nothing actually change, or do I see new leaders who come in with high energy and ambition and then they leave kind of feeling defeated and nothing changed? Like, these. Are anybody listening to this is like, I could probably name six instances of that right now. Like, the reality is it's those, those patterns of repeating problems, repeating churn, repeating inertia. Those are places where it's like, I, I don't ask what's wrong with the people. I really start asking, like, what is, what is this system teaching, um, people to do? Or not the, the way I think about when I've, when I've studied this and maybe something fun to know about me. So, so I'm a drummer, have been since a very, very young age. And so I'm naturally, like, wiring and thinking about rhythms. And the way I think about this and the way I look inside of a lot of organizations are what are the accidental rhythms or maybe the, the undesired reflexes that they have? And these are the things that, like, I can just test and like, what's the natural, like, pattern that. That plays, plays out in terms of how people respond to what they show me, what they defend. And this might be meetings that they have, it might be decisions that they make. It might Be like, where they stay silent. Most of those things that I look at were never designed. There was never kind of, uh, uh, an intentional pre. Decision. These are just things that formed out of urgency, out of habit, out of pressure. And I, uh, see organizations where what leaders say matters has actually been replaced with something else that's, that's reinforcing something completely else, like completely different.

Speaker A: So when leaders are saying we have an engagement problem, right. I mean, it's a very simple thing to kind of say when things aren't getting done right, or if you're not feeling like culture is enabled in the, that you are looking for it to be or have established it to be. There's a number of different things between productivity and vibes, so to speak. So what could actually be happening beneath the surface if that's the problem or the, the, the thing that leaders are coming to you with?

Speaker E: Okay, so let's just accept that disengagement or apathy, quiet quitting, psychological absence, whatever term over the last 60 years of work you want to use to describe it is a real thing. Maybe, uh, the better question is like, why, why is it playing out? And if you look at some of the data you think you had mentioned earlier, the, the Gallup statistic, the part that I think a lot of people skip when they dig into the findings is one of the largest drops is actually among managers and leaders. So if you think about the people responsible for creating these conditions, they themselves are disengaging. Why? I've spent a lot of time researching this. Surveys, focus groups, conversations over coffee with thousands of leaders, and most people like the way that they described it is that the, the system has essentially made the wrong behavior easier than the right one. And so the wrong one is just winning. Right, Wrong or indifferent, the wrong one is winning. And this is a matter of like, competing and like, there's all these little ways that it erodes it. But like the, what it, what it really comes down to is like, we feel like there's this disconnect between what our business promises and what we actually practice. Maybe that's the easiest way for me to talk about like, what's playing out. So that's like, okay, so what does that look like? Can be a bunch of different things. The other thing I think though, on this, this, this question of like, what's, what's actually happening here, I think that there's some confusion between employee satisfaction and employee engagement as well. And I think that confuses some people in terms of like, what the problem is in their Business. Like, if we think about what employee satisfaction is, it's really about conditions. It's pay hours, what tools do I have available resources. Uh, but engagement is more about investment. It's about my sense of meaning, belonging, impact. And my observation is a lot of businesses solve the wrong problems. They say, hey, we're struggling with employee engagement. And then they do a bunch of things that, that really have more to do whether or not somebody is satisfied and not anything to do with whether the conditions exist for them to show discretionary effort and actually say to themselves, this is someplace where I feel like I belong. And so you've got people who kind of improve some of these other conditions and they wait for commitment to follow, but it, but it rarely does. What I, I guess ultimately see is, is one of four things are the real problem. When, when businesses say we have an engagement problem, it's either a, uh, clarity gap, what, what actually matters, a recognition gap. And I don't mean like high fives and company kudos. This is, this is like a lot of the works that I do that really matters feels invisible. So, so recognition. Third would be autonomy. Uh, and again, these things that I feel like are undermining the job that I was hired to do. Uh, and then the fourth, I think is some level of psychological safety or even just overall like cognitive load and the fatigue that's, that's coming with it. And the issue with all four of those is like, none of them are about perks or like you're not, you're not going to do another survey or listening session that's going to solve that problem. This is really going back to the idea of systems and redesigned work. It's like, does work work against us? Like, that is the biggest question here is like the job that we've asked people to do, have we created an environment where it is actively preventing that from playing out?

Speaker D: Yeah. And to your point earlier, Justin, the lot of times the, at least pieces of that system are completely unintentional. So it probably needs a fresh, a fresh look at it and to, uh, make sure those pieces are addressed well and properly and that you are aligning behavior with the system. So.

Speaker E: And you can't blow the whole thing up. Right. It's actually, it's, it's incredibly incremental. It's, it's all of these small places at one. But it's like if you can take like a 1% increase in your intentionality and there's six habits that I kind of recognize in the organizations who do it. Well, but it's like if you can at least practice one of them for 30 days, like start there, you don't need to blow the whole thing up.

Speaker D: I've, I've got all the metrics today for you, Justin. So, um, so research from Harvard Business Review found that professionals can spend up to, and I relate with this 23 hours per week in meetings, many of which lack clear outcomes. So how can everyday structures like meetings and internal communication influence performance potentially more than leaders might realize?

Speaker E: Yeah, I think that how we run meetings, I mean, I think how we do anything is a reflection of how we do everything in our business. And I think think in terms of three big buckets. One is clarity. I say that a lot because it feels like we're short on it in a lot of businesses. Clarity, discipline. Had this conversation with a lot of leaders recently. They feel like their organization just lacks the discipline. They need to see things through. And then accountability for, for what we say we're going to do, how we're going to measure results and whether or not we're getting closer. And one or all of those three, the existence or the absence of them, like that tends to tell me a lot about what the organization does. And I think we've probably all been in a place where you've got a business who defaults to. Let's use a meeting as an example. But we haven't defined who has the authority to decide what. What are the roles that, uh, people play in it, what are the outcomes that we're really looking to drive. Like, we've gotten really good at masquerading behind all of this activity and believing that it's driving meaningful change in our organization. And like it's a comfort blanket and we need to be uncomfortable for a season, I think, because it's not actually driving what it is. But, uh, I think the deep, the deeper issue with again, meetings or initiatives like insert whatever corporate blah thing you want to use here. Like, the deeper issue to me is that our communication patterns, I think are creating some of the strongest rhythms and some of the strongest reflexes inside of our businesses. And again, like in the moment we don't think about. When you take a step back and look at it play out day after day after week after week after month after year, you realize that all of these meetings that end without us having a clear decision, well, that's just teaching people that preparation and follow through is optional. Or when we're only giving feedback after there's been a failure. While this is going to teach me that I should probably limit my exposure to risk as much as possible. Or when we, we have kind of what it feels like, this shifting amoeba, um, of priorities week after week. And there's no clear explanation or understanding. Like, people, people realize I'm just going to narrow where I focus and I'm just going to wait for this to all play out. Like, all of this stuff, like, that's what's teaching people what matters here. And again, in my research and experience, like, people aren't resisting the purpose that we've put in front of them as a business or the ambitious goals that we're setting. They've just adapted to the, the rhythm of work that they've experienced every single time. And, and that to me, again, like, that's, that's like, that's how this influences it. It's like one small thing that just the pattern, like, whether we name it or not, we're seeing it everywhere and so are, uh, like our minds are really, really good at picking that up and making decisions for us. That again, John, you said it's, it's unintentional for so many businesses, it's unintentional because we just haven't recognized how much our habits have shaped the DNA of how our business runs.

Speaker D: So I love that, that statement that you made, the, the shifting kind of blob of areas of focus or responsibilities. And I've seen that a lot with our clients. Like, we've, we've got clients. It's, it's absolutely, it's for the right reasons. Right. They're ambitious. They want to get a ton done. But I think that that ends up looking like that shifting, uh, priorities. Haven't, haven't finished seeing one thing through, and we're on to the next four things. So I guess, uh, my question for you is what does intervention look like for that? Or what does the guidance look like for an organization that is used to operating that way?

Speaker E: Oh, there is no quick and easy and sweeping answer to this. And I think this was one of the hardest things for me to pin down, especially as I looked at the organizations who did this really well, because I would say there were a couple characteristics that played out that I think enabled them to do this, do this at, uh, scale and do it consistently. One was certainly having, I'll say, what resolved what matters really most to the business right now. I think it's easy for us to get into our, like, natural little functional buckets, and we decided what's most important to our team or to our department and then we start to conflict with other parts of the business. And so I think you, you naturally have a lot of stuff where like people just manufacture what, what's going to be best for their team at the sake of like forget anybody else, right? They're not, they're not accountable for my quarterly business review or for my bonus like I am. So it's like I'm going to, I'm going to go into self preservation rather than kind of be aligned and resolved with the business. I think that's, that's part one. I think uh, a second thing is certainly knowing where you need to hold the line on what matters most. And this is for me of like can you, as I had a mentor early in my career who talked about intentional pre decisions and what they said is like a lot of how we designed things inside of, of work is like the ideal condition. And the minute pressure shows up, that's when we start to make some of these compromises. And if we don't decide ahead of time an intentional pre decision about what needs to win, then, then this stuff just like we, we go to that. Whatever my reflex or my instinct or my emotions in the moment do. So like that's, that's something that again you don't have to do it as a corporate like uh, as a company wide thing. It's like you as, as a leader can say, hey, what are some of the places, Even the last 30 days that I know that we compromised on a place where we said we would never compromise? Like, it's like stuff like that, you can keep going on but it's, it's, it's being really, really intentional about the habits that we're setting into our business around what matters most. Where do we compromise? Like where do we compromise or not? How do we make sure that people's contributions are, are felt and acknowledged? How do we think like intentionally about the tempo and how work actually runs? How do we think about measuring not just what the output is, but how work feels for people? Like these, these are things like how do you do it? It's usually one of those that I start to break down inside of a business. It's like, well, which one is, is kind of flaring up the most for you right now?

Speaker A: We love all these examples, Justin. And I know that John threw you uh, a curveball there, but it brings up a lot of like, really good points about the point that you're making with your system design and how you implement those things to move forward towards performance. You had mentioned earlier Something that kind of stuck with me where I was like, oh, that's interesting. And it's like the other side of the coin where maybe your system is designed to make the, let's call them the wrong behaviors easier to do or, or you come out of it more conditioned to continue those behaviors which aren't the right direction to go in. So uh, my question is when organizations are heavily relying on metrics or trying to implement these types of metrics to see where they're going. Right. How, where do you see those metrics sometimes unintentionally still driving the wrong behaviors?

Speaker E: Yeah, uh, I, so I can give a couple real examples and then, then talk about more grandly because we've actually seen this play out publicly. I recently had the opportunity to give a TED talk and one of the things we talked specifically about in that was this point and, and what happens when we say one thing, but then the system makes the right behavior harder than the wrong one. Uh, probably one of the most well known examples is Wells Fargo and they talked about trust and partnership and this was the message. But then they, they rewarded aggressive quotas that violated both. Right. Really good example of like a, uh, brand who said here's one thing that matters. But then what they put into practice actually contrasted that. I, there's, there's something called the Goodhart's law and it's this principle that says that when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to become a good measure. And I'll be honest, like I, I have lived this personally even in my, my own career. There was one of the teams that I was running that I was like, I wanted to be the cool manager that everybody was like, oh, this guy has my back, he wants me to be successful. So I was like, we're just going to put all of this stuff out on a report. And mind you, in this particular environment, it was a very customer centric environment. In my one on ones in my coaching, I had said to my employees like, hey, what matters is that you understand the customer, that you take time to not just resolve the existing issue, but if we can understand and anticipate future ones like that. That was where we spent coaching conversations. That was even a lot of the stuff that I said mattered most to our team. But when I built this dashboard, one of the things that I ended up putting in the upper left hand corner of the report was the average time that they spent with a customer. And this was just, I was trying to be transparent and give you all of the things that we were pulling from our system. Like, I want you to know this is, this is the stuff that's, that's available to us. And if you know anything about how we read and how we place priority, because it was in the upper left hand corner of that report, my employees interpreted that as, uh, that was the most important metric. And it didn't matter what I had said to them. This thing that was landing on their desk every day started to shape their behavior. What I said about priority and importance, like, the pure, like, placement of that metric taught them something unintentionally, again, because of, because of what I did. So like, I think some of it's that we just don't realize how people are interpreting what we're putting in front of front of them. And a lot of this stuff isn't malicious. Again, there are course examples where it's likeness is like it was. People got in serious trouble because of some of the decisions that were made at Wells Fargo. Right. But there's other organizations on the other side of it. Like, let's look at, ah, Costco. I think Costco is another really good example. Like, here's a business that they pay above market wages to their employees. Uh, they, they build predictable schedules like part of their entire model. I was talking to one of their senior leaders. Like, employee longevity is kind of a core metric in terms of how they think about it. And then you look at their customer renewal rates and it's I think above 90% in terms of customers who renew with them year after year. Like another example, they said, hey, rather than let this be like an accident, let's be really, really intentional about what are the things that matter most to us. And so I think that's. Jocelyn, honestly, like a lot of it is just like unintentional things. If we don't recognize what is the downstream consequence of us putting this in front of our employees in this way, in this moment?

Speaker A: No, that's a great answer. And your examples are great too, because, I mean, I think we've all experienced some version of that too where it's, again, it's, it's helpful, right? It's data. But what is it conditioning us to do? So those are helpful examples. Thank you.

Speaker D: So Justin, um, there's a, uh, there's a lot happening beneath the surface that shapes how people work. And uh, I guess I'm curious, what are, what are some of the less obvious factors that influence performance inside organizations? Like, I know you said where a metric was placed on a screen is one example of that. Are there Some other examples of, of some of that unintentional influence on performance.

Speaker E: Yeah, I, I think of it this way. Every organization has two kind of ways of operating and they are both happening simultaneously. You've got the formal one and that's, that's uh, what the leadership team designed. This is our hierarchy, these are our processes, these are the company values. And then you've got the informal one and that's, that's the one that people are actually using. Right. It's like hey Jocelyn, you need to, you need to know that like if you want a decision to get made, just circumvent John and you got to go to this other person because like they're, they're the real one who's going to do this or in this situation, like the rules don't get enforced. Like, like if you say this is an issue, they're going to ignore policy and you can just proceed. So like that's your get out of jail free card. And also by the way like John's opinion, he carries way more weight. Like I know he's not the director of the apartment, but he's the one who has the ear and he's the one that like if you're in John's good favor, like you're, you're, you're set for like that. That I think is the thing to know is that our business, most performance is living in the informal system. It is not in the one that we've like nicely designed and govern. And most leaders I talk to, they have no way of auditing or understanding it. And so when I talk about the gap between promise and practice like this, this is that it's, it's what has the business said matters and then like what is this undercurrent that's actually driving how the day to day plays out? And like that's, that's the stuff again. It's like that's becomes what we internalize. That's the stuff that people learn once they get out of the classroom and start spending actual time on the job. Like that's, that's the stuff. And, and I think uh, there was a quote when I realized this, this topic was like something that really mattered to me. There was a quote I had stumbled across from Maya Angelou and it says people will judge you by your actions, not your intentions. You may have a heart of gold, but so does a hard boiled egg. And I think a lot of people can like when they actually sit with it for a minute, can realize that it's like gosh we have, we have, most leaders are great people with the best intentions and that we've got this unintentional thing that's actually creating what people experience. And so then why do we see numbers like Gallup? Why when we look at consumer indexes, do they seem at an all time low? I think we've just hit this point where this unintended byproduct of this secondary operating system is just causing everything to shake. And maybe finally somebody will do something about it and we won't just let it play out.

Speaker A: It's an interesting segue too because there are, with this intentional, unintentional. Right. And directing or uh, directing and creating your systems. Right. There are things that can come out of broken things, um, with good intentions or not. And that can be things like burnout. It can be major inefficiencies, which is a huge thing that we're talking about here with this system. So what are some of the, I guess, signals or the, that companies are sending or the things that they're doing intentionally or not, that end up rewarding those types of things? I think it goes back to where you were saying. The uh, systems can sometimes make the wrong behaviors easier. This is a similar thing. But specifically talking about things like burnout and inefficiencies, which we ideally want this system to fix.

Speaker E: Yeah. I think the loudest message that organizations send on this front is celebrating the heroic firefighter. And this to me is the person who stays late, they work the weekend, they solve the crisis, like we are praising them. And organizations almost never celebrate the people who prevent crises from existing in the first place. Uh, this is one of the biggest things that when I. So, gosh, it's probably going back a decade now. One, uh, of the things that I've been studying very consistently is apathy and connection at work and employees at all levels. Like what, what are the things that drive to. Drive to burnout, that drive to resignation, that drive to like all, all of that stuff. And what I discovered is that that burnout was, was often affecting the top performers first. Right. These are the people who are stretching to fill gaps. They are helping navigate ambiguity with maybe less tenured team. They become incredibly reliable. And over time we turn that reliability into expectation with those people and their output is continuing. Our, our investment as a business really doesn't. Right. And that, that gap between promise and practice continues to grow. They continue to feel more and more and more and they're stretching. We don't kind of give them an opportunity to recover or hit any type of like, meaningful pace, we, we kind of have this unnatural erosion of any sense of boundary. Like, and then finally by the time we get to like, burnout of the surface level, like that, that's been, that's been building for a long time. And again, I think it's really concerning because where the most significant place it is the people who care the most and have given the greatest investment and we've just kind of glossed over what that's doing to them. And, and because of my, my belief based off of what I've observed and studied is like, a lot of these people have the characteristic where they're not, like, they're also not gonna cry uncle. Like, they want to, they want to help, they want to bridge the gap. And then it gets to where it's too late. And so you've got this place where like, they're, they're the stabilizer until they're not right? And so then when, when they break, it's like everything else kind of structured with them. But for me, that's, that's again the biggest thing. Like, people don't burn out because the work is hard. They burn out because so much of the work feels invisible and underappreciated.

Speaker A: So even when these things are recognized, right, change can be slow, it can be really difficult.

Speaker D: Right?

Speaker A: You have to figure out what the problem is and then go solution it. So what tends to get in the way of the redesigning of systems? You figured out what it is. So what's, what's presenting preventing us from step one forward?

Speaker E: I think the, the most honest answer is identity. And, and what I mean by that is we, we defend the systems that we helped build, uh, because we maybe feel like criticizing the system is criticizing the builder or at least the enabler. And I think it makes some of that change really difficult. That I think maybe beyond that, the, the current system that we have is producing outcomes that someone in the organization is benefiting from. And even if they're not the best, they're acceptable. Like, I've had this, uh, at points in my career where it was good enough and you, you've got a person or maybe a coalition, and like, that's the real obstacle is not, not can we do change, but what is the cost of change? Do we understand the cost of not changing? And I think it gets really easy to justify and accept status quo. I mean, if you look in most organizations, like, what ultimately wins and it's the way we've always done it. Again, not because I don't think people.

Speaker A: I,

Speaker E: maybe I am in the minority here, but I don't genuinely believe that people fear change. I think people fear uncertainty. And I think we, we need to do a better job of having vision and confidence and, and a, a system that enables safe, smart risk. But yeah, yeah, I really think it's like it's either you've got somebody who's already benefacting and, or sorry, benefiting from, from what's going on, or we just, we just, we just create really human excuses. I mean it's not like.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker E: I don't think it's more complicated than that.

Speaker D: No.

Speaker A: And I like that answer too because I mean you could kind of see me like giving you recognition as, as you were saying things because the human. It's why I love doing this podcast too is because I think more than ever I, I would say since before COVID because I think. Or just right when covet hit. Because I think that's when it really hit us all. Like what it meant to be human. Right. And you cannot remove that from yourself. Like there's nothing you can do to change who you are in a personal or professional setting outside of normal behavioral things. And so this tie in of you saying the reasons are very human centric makes so much sense. It's the same reason why you say people aren't necessarily afraid of change, they're afraid of uncertainty. And that could also lean into, they're afraid of being uncomfortable and vulnerable. Uh, who would choose the uncomfortable situation if, if they have an option which again leads back to your system's design. And what are we creating to enable the right behaviors versus the easier ones? So I, I see you kind of thinking and spitballing all at once because like this, this is triggering a thought over here and that over there. But I think that's what makes what you're doing magic, is because like you can still be you and bring things to the table and then it's how there that enables the rest of your organization to follow suit. So I know that you were jumping around and you're like, I just don't know. But I think in that is, is the right answer and a very valuable one for everybody listening.

Speaker E: Well, the reality there, Jocelyn, is it always, it always depends. It always depends. And I think that's, that's the thing that's always been rewarding for me is when I sit alongside a leader, I think they, all the ones who do this well, they share one characteristic and that's a willingness to hold what I call Structural accountability, not just aspirational accountability.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker E: They're willing to change. How do we incentivize, how do we measure? How do we govern? But it's never just one thing, and it is almost always us. Who is the barrier like that. That, I think, is one of the things that gets really exciting and maybe even part of the struggle of that. It's like, I can think of, like, five leaders in the same organization where it's like each one of their barriers is really different, but every one of their barriers gets back to, like, what is the narrative that they're playing out inside of their mind way more than what's happening in the environment around them.

Speaker A: I am such a culprit of creating storylines in my head.

Speaker E: I also get that.

Speaker D: Nice. So, Justin, just to make this more tangible for our listeners and to kind of tie together some of the concepts that. That we've discussed, uh, could you share a situation where a shift in the system led to meaningful improvement both in performance as well as employee experience?

Speaker E: Yeah. I think one of the best examples of this that I want to go to is a leader who resisted the obvious fix and was willing to ask harder questions instead. So early part of my career was hospitality operations, then running into contact centers. And that was. I spent especially my time in operations. A big part of it was in contact centers. So then when I left contact centers, a lot of my. My early clients, as you can imagine, were running some sort of, like, service or support team. And there was this one particular contact center that they were, if you think about from an internal metric standpoint, like. Like across their dashboard. By all accounts, they were really, really high performing, both in terms of their. Their effectiveness and the time they spent with someone and what they could accomplish. The amount of activity that they were doing, like, the work itself looked really good. The reason they reached out initially is they had. Employee turnover had started to explode, and, um, unsurprisingly, customer satisfaction was also tanking. So they. I remember I got the call, and he's like, we've taken a cliff dive and we don't know what caused it. Like that. That was kind of the way that they. They were thinking about it. So their first instinct, though, was, we need. We need. We need better training, and we want to. We want to do. We want to have, uh, cultural kickoff. That was. That was the request was, we think we need some better training and a cultural kickoff.

Speaker C: Before.

Speaker E: Before we did any of that. We're like, can we. Can we actually spend some time auditing the actual work here? And it was interesting because it took. It was a flashback moment for me because one of the primary things that their employees were evaluated on was speed.

Speaker C: It.

Speaker E: What was your handle time with this customer? What was your time to close? But those were in direct conflict with what was actually needed to resolve these really complex customer issues, which is what was also kind of playing out in here. And so what you saw, right, and this is stuff that, like, sometimes you sit and you look at it and like, people have this, like, they smack their. They're like, oh, duh. It's like this was one of those. Because here you have these employees who are actually taking time to solve the problem, understand the customer, and they were being scored lower than agents who were moving fast and transferring the calls. I actually had this in this, this one agent I found who was like, really, really good at, like, getting the customer to this certain point and then transferring them. And so they were like, as far as, like, every indication, like, unless you really dug into it, that would have looked just fine. And so here you had a measurement system. It was actually training agents to be inefficient, and it was publishing them to be effective. So for them, the structural change that we made there, I mean, it honestly became pretty straightforward. And that's a lot of times this stuff, like, if you spend even a little bit of time just like digging into it, you figure out, okay, this is what it is. So first thing we did is like, how do we actually think about measuring success? Not just reflective measures of success, which I think are most businesses. We're really good at looking back, but we're not good about, hey, what, what are the predictive things, right? We're, we're here in, in the beginning of summer. So it's, it's. I live on the coast, it's beach season. I've got, like, two ways I can predict how I'm going to feel on the beach this summer. One is reflective. It's the scale. The second is like, what am I eating, Am I exercising? Right? Like, simple stuff like that. We said, how do we redesign the measurement system so that we're more metrics that are about what are you eating and are you working out than what happens when we step on the scale? So in this case, we were like, well, how do we make sure that next issue avoidance and first contact resolution are actually measured and understood, and that becomes one of the primary measures of success and speed becomes a guide rail, right?

Speaker D: And.

Speaker E: And we know that if we're too far this way or this way, like Maybe something else is going on. And then when we looked at how even the managers were being measured, it was more about how are they developing their, their team and are they coaching and nurturing in a way that's actually driving sustainable, durable performance or what it had been historically was okay. John did his six evaluations and he sent the email evals to Jocelyn. Great job, John. Like that, that was kind of what was happening there. Uh, so within two quarters we saw repeat contacts went down for their business, customer satisfaction, improved turnover took a little bit more time, quite honestly, because people were skeptical, like, is this just a temporary thing or can I trust and believe you? And it really took consistency for their culture to uh, I'd say reset. It wasn't a matter of the kickoff and it never is. It's. Can I count on you to consistently say what you'll do and do what you say again, like fundamental stuff. Like that's the stuff that when I think about whether it was in sessions that I do with people, talks that I give, or even in the book, like the idea for me is like what you say gets people in the door, but what they experience actually determines whether or not they stay. And I think like that for me is the thing we have to think about when it comes to redesigning systems or like making this tangible is like what are people actually experiencing? Like how, how does work work? Not what does it. Not what does it drive, right? Not what's the outcome, but how does it feel and what's the experience that, that people are going through.

Speaker D: So everything you just said made me realize that when I go get my coffee in the morning and I see that timer up on the wall inside the coffee shop, that's probably why I'm getting the wrong coffee.

Speaker E: I will tell you. I, I have a relative who is a leader for one of these coffee chains. And fun fact is they're one of their corporate incentives is based off of drive through time. And so if you are in a hurry, uh, you can be sure that you will be served faster in the drive through than if you come into the counter. Uh, because that's a gray area. Uh, it's, it's harder to measure. So yeah, there's, there's definitely incentives that drive the wrong behavior and, and certainly one type of experience, uh, at some of those institutions I'm just having fun.

Speaker D: Usually they get it right.

Speaker E: I mean, I. You seem triggered, John. I'm just, I wanted you to have an opportunity to process that here on.

Speaker D: I do, I do feel relieved now. So.

Speaker E: Good Good, good.

Speaker B: You're.

Speaker E: You're. I've. I've vindicated your.

Speaker D: Exactly.

Speaker A: Achieving lots of things here today. So, uh, on a final note, Justin, uh, as organizations are continuing to evolve, what would you say is one shift in thinking about performance or engagement? Either one that you think leaders should really be paying more attention to?

Speaker E: Look, I think we need to stop treating performance and engagement as separate disciplines. They really do come from the same source, and that source is work design. Like, if we go back to even some of the Gallup data and the double click on leaders being that place where this has been the greatest drop, you've got people where they are. They are navigating systems that are fundamentally misaligned with why they've come to work in the first place. Again, like this. This, to me was probably the most unsettling thing when I've. When I've done these employee interviews is that, like, people, they want to make a difference. They want to feel a sense of purpose. They want to feel a sense of joy at work. Like, they want their. Their gifts and their experience. Like, they want to have impact. And yet the number one thing I hear from people is they feel like the system or the process has made that difficult. Like that. That, to me, is the thing that we need to recognize, that is, that is producing our culture and the experiences that people have, like, faster than anything that we say. So the shift that I probably am advocating for the most is how do we move from measuring engagement or talking about it, uh, to actually designing for it, making sure that it's something that we're intentional about, that we're willing to repeat, that we're willing to reinforce that it's not like, too, too often we try to have it live on our poster or in a rah rah speech, and then we step out of that moment and it just plays out like that. That, to me, is the. The biggest bit here. It's like culture, employee engagement. Like, none of that stuff can be trained. We can't. We can't just do something and expect it to, like, change. It's going to emerge from what we prioritize, what we reward, what we ignore, what we excuse every single day. And so what would I pay attention to the most right now is, like, even where's one place that I can name where work is actually working against us? Promises don't match what we practice. Start there. Maybe you have a list of 10. Don't get overwhelmed by it. Just pick one thing and. And even for 30 days, like, if I could, for 30 days, recognize what's the most common place where my people were unclear on what mattered Most, and spend 30 days reinforcing and iterating and, like, working through that with people like that, impact is going to last, and then I can move on from there. That's, that's. That's probably the biggest thing for me.

Speaker A: I think that's great advice and a good place to start, especially when you say, have your list and pick one. Start there. It's good to know that you can take small steps in the right direction. So speaking of going in the right direction, we're now at the end of our, uh, formal interview. Now we're going to go to the informal side and do a little thing we call the TTA 10.

Speaker C: It's the TTA 10. 10 final questions for our guest.

Speaker A: All right, Justin, so we talked to you a little bit about this before the episode started. I got 10 more playful questions to ask you. You answer them as quickly as you can, and we are going to put 60 seconds on the clock. So the goal is to answer it in less time than that, and if you do, we will reward you with a fun little. Let's, uh, call it a dance number at the end. We'll see. All right. Oh, on that note, are you ready?

Speaker E: I'm ready.

Speaker A: Awesome. All right, David, we need 60 seconds

Speaker E: on the clock, please.

Speaker C: Clock is starting now.

Speaker A: All right, Justin, coffee or tea? And how do you take it?

Speaker E: Coffee, black.

Speaker A: First job you ever had?

Speaker E: Newspaper carrier.

Speaker A: The one app on your phone that you could not live without.

Speaker E: Notes.

Speaker A: What is the last book that you finished all the way through 10x is easier than 2x meeting at 7am or emailing at midnight. Pick one.

Speaker E: 7am meeting.

Speaker A: Oh, good for you. If you could shadow anyone for a day living or not, who would it be?

Speaker E: Oh, I don't like that question. Uh, I'm gonna go with Simon Sinek.

Speaker A: What is a skill completely unrelated to your work that you're pretty proud of having?

Speaker E: I'm a certified competitive barbecue judge.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker A: Biggest career myth you wish somebody had busted for you earlier?

Speaker E: Oh, probably around entrepreneurship. If you have an idea, chase after it, see what happens.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: What does your workspace look like right now? Be honest, messy or clean?

Speaker E: Oh, we're transitioning. I'm building a new set so it's half messy and half clean.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, 50. 50. Good answer. What's the last thing you Googled that you would not want anybody to see? You had to Google it.

Speaker E: I genuinely don't remember. Okay.

Speaker A: All right, well, we will Give you. I, uh, don't remember as the answer. And David, we are done with our 10 questions, so can we get a final, uh, number, please?

Speaker C: With a time of just 1 minute, 15 seconds, Justin is easily a winner of the TTA 10.

Speaker A: Yay, Justin.

Speaker E: Yay.

Speaker C: I. I started as a paper boy. I guess I never graduated to a newspaper carrier. That sounds fancy the way you did it. So kudos on that. Uh, but that's just positioning and marketing or whatever you want to call it. Uh, but since you did so well, and since you're such an expert in your field, you might not know this, but during the time that you were doing the TTA 10, Hollywood actually produced a movie about your story. And today we are going to look and listen to that trailer. Mainly listen. But please, please enjoy the trailer for the Justin movie.

Speaker F: From the studio that brought you the consultant Margin Call and John Wick quarterly earnings comes the story of one analyst who asked the question no boardroom was prepared to answer.

Speaker B: What happens when the most human moments in your business become your competitive edge?

Speaker F: He founded Metric Sherpa to uncover the truth. But the deeper he digs into customer experience, the more dangerous the data becomes.

Speaker B: My God, they're actually reading the white paper. They're turning values into slide decks.

Speaker F: When billion dollar tech companies start using trust as a marketing strategy, one man must decide how far he's willing to go for authentic alignment.

Speaker B: We needed a keynote search speaker. We got a reckoning. Values only matter when they show up in how work really gets done.

Speaker F: Now, hunted by consultants, feared by disengaged middle managers, and armed with nothing but research frameworks and terrifying clarity, Justin Robbins is about to make business communication personal.

Speaker B: This isn't a product pitch anymore.

Speaker F: This fall, the future of customer experience as a body count. Edward Norton as Justin Robbins in more than a motto. Truth over trends, Action over theory. Clarity or else.

Speaker A: Oh, bravo, David.

Speaker C: Coming to a theater near you.

Speaker A: Exceptional. And Edward Norton. I mean, that is a really great, uh, tie in. What a fantastic actor.

Speaker C: Robert Downey. Robert Downey Jr. Wasn't available, so we had.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, no, we get it. It was, I mean, it was a last minute mo movie. So, um, we understand.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Pretty cool, huh?

Speaker E: Huh, Justin?

Speaker A: Not bad for a day's work.

Speaker B: That was good.

Speaker C: I like that.

Speaker A: Well, listen, we really enjoyed having you on the podcast, so thank you so much for bringing your wealth of knowledge and wisdom to us. Uh, this is a incredible concept on how to get your organization back on track with a systems redesign and a lot of points hit home. So thank you for sharing with us.

Speaker E: Awesome. Thanks for having us.

Speaker D: Thank you, Justin.

Speaker A: For more information on how systems and metrics can drive your engagement and performance, Visit us at thetrainingassociates.com we'll see you later.