Season 10 - Episode 148: Kurt Mosely & Neill Marshall

Speaker A: We come to Berlin, we American presidents, because it's our duty to speak in this place of freedom. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Fidelis Leadership Podcast, a place of learning for those who aspire to leadership excellence. Here's our host M etor.

Speaker A: Neil Marshall and Kurt Mosley are nationally recognized experts in healthcare leadership and executive search with more than 60 years of combined experience guiding organizations to recruit and support top executives. Together, they co authored the first 90 days from resume to Results, a framework that offers leaders practical tools to earn trust, build momentum, and make an impact from day one. In this episode, they will share some insights on leadership leadership by leveraging their experience interviewing over 10,000 healthcare executives. And I do want to say for the audience up front, uh, we've got two really distinguished, highly experienced executives here, and though they come from the health care industry, and I just told you about this first 90 days concept, uh, they have. We're getting ready to talk about leadership, uh, leadership, uh, that will benefit all leaders, all industries, all levels, all roles that you're in. So with that, Kurt, Neal, welcome to the Fidelis Leadership Podcast.

Speaker B: Hey, thanks, Mike.

Speaker C: Glad to be here, Mike. It's good to be here. Thank you for inviting us.

Speaker A: Well, thank you, fellas. You guys reached out to me and, uh, I was joking. I'll tell the audience that we were joking prior to hitting record about. I get, uh, you know, a lot of solicitation. Probably nine out of 10 are just not fit for the podcast. It's a different topic. You know, I talk about leadership, but when I saw the other email pop up, I was like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, highly qualified. So thank you so much. Well, listen, the intro was obviously very brief. Can each of you take about a minute and tell us a little bit more what we need to know about, uh, about Neil and Kurt?

Speaker B: Yeah, so while we've spent our careers in executive search, um, we're, we've, we've come to look at it a little bit differently. Um, it used to be that, uh, you know, once, once you had a successful placement, we were done. Um, but we've come to realize that we're not successful unless that leader is successful over a decent period of time.

Speaker C: Um, so that's what's led us to

Speaker B: focus on these first 90 days, because that's really when the success is set in motion or it's going to be derailed. Right. So most search firms celebrate the placement six months later. Nobody cares. Um, meanwhile, the leaders struggling, cultures off the board is questioning the hire, um, and what we've said is, hey, we want to focus on not only getting you the right person in the right situation at the right time, but also helping them be successful. So we're also writing a book that's being built on these examples. Um, and more importantly, we're building a system that leaders can use where they can actually apply these tactics and not just read about them. Because reading something is one thing, Mike, as you well know, but it's actually been implementing things, hardwiring, if you will. That's where the rubber really meets the road.

Speaker A: Well, I love it. Kurt, would you like to add to that?

Speaker C: Well, just, you know, our focus has always been especially this earned authority, the 90 day series. And what it means, it. It really defines your leadership legacy. And I think all leaders in America, Mike, are looking to define their legacy. And again, just to, uh, add on to what Neil said, most firms focus on the hire. We focus on whether that hire succeeds.

Speaker A: Yeah, well said. I love that. I have a little bit of history with the, uh, staffing industry, and as you know, the industry at all levels is full of people that are. They're just looking to get the check from you. They're not looking necessarily to see if that placement is there two, three, five years from now. So it's commendable what you're doing. I love it. Um, well, listen, I always ask a literal question up front, fellas, just so the audience can get it. I. There. There's going to be people listening this that don't know what executive search is. So if one of you would just. What is literally what does your company do and what do you do for your clients?

Speaker B: Sure. Um, so we are retained, just like an attorney's retained by, um, a hospital. Like you said, Tampa General. Um, Tampa General needs a new CEO. Um, they hire us, um, we go in and do a lot of due diligence, and then we help them, um, find, uh, a CEO for them, uh, for the long term. Um, and our clients are mostly hospitals and health care systems.

Speaker A: Got it, got it. Well, thank you so much. Now, listen, let's get right into the interview. Now, I'm intrigued by the fact that you both have Talked to over 10,000, uh, executives, interviewed them. Um, and one of the questions that popped up was, what do you feel consistently, you know, based on these interviews, consistently separates leaders who succeed early in a role, vice those that do not.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So most of them that are successful treat the first 90 days more diagnostic than prescriptive, which means they listen before they act. They focus on building Trust not proving themselves. And they understand that they're being judged on behavior, not strategy at that point. So I'll tell you one story. Um, actually the person that Kurt and I interviewed that started this whole 90 days for us, this whole focus on the 90 days, his name was Richard Parks. He was running a major hospital system out in West Texas. And, um, we were interviewing him and he said, well, when I take a new job, CEO job, my wife stays home, gets the kids ready to move, sells the house, and I move into the hospital. And we're like, okay, Richard, everybody works hard their first 90 days. We understand. He said, no, I move into the hospital and I live there until my family shows up. Most big hospital Tampa, uh, General has a, uh, dormitory for the residents, and that's what he moved into. And Mike, I've interviewed 10,000 hospital executives and nobody had ever talked about anything that significant. And I was like, this is really something. I want to know more about this. And we started interviewing more people talking about what the tactics that they use in the first 90 days. And so that's how we came up with it.

Speaker A: No, I love it. I love it. Well, um, you know, you're focused. You know, obviously a lot of your work upcoming book on this first 90 days. Is there something especially important about the 90 day time frame by 60 or 180?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's, um, again, it's, it's, it's your first shot to be on stage, if I can put it that way, Mike. Um, the first 90 days sets the tone, the trust, and the trajectory of what kind of leader you want to be. And those early actions in those 90 days, they really weigh heavy on your legacy. So we always caution the people that we talk to about making sure you understand the situation you're in before you try to change it. You understand the problems before you try to change it. You understand the culture before you earn that right to change it. And your credibility is either built or damaged quickly in that first 90 days. And again, your leadership brands defined immediately that first 90 days day. One example, uh, we had a CEO that replaced a well, like leader in the first 30 days. The leader probably needed to be replaced, but he didn't do his due diligence, didn't find out this leader, although maybe it just wasn't a good match going forward, was one of the most popular figures in the hospital. And from then on, everybody, he lost his credibility. And again, right decision, wrong timing, you know, too quick, um, and you lost credibility and failed. Uh, example in our, in Our presidential history. George Washington stepped down, and that single act defined leadership forever. It basically said, early moves stick. And I guess what is the takeaway from that is power. That's proven. Power is proven by the willingness to give it up. And the leader who doesn't cling to authority earns more of it and of it.

Speaker A: Well, uh, that's a great segue because the next thing I was going to ask you was about this phrase you used, earned authority. Um, and I think I know what you mean, but we're going to talk about it. Um, what. What is earned authority and what's it look like? We're, uh, talking about it. But what. How does somebody go about doing it in practice?

Speaker C: Well, it's. It's really, um, what you do, Mike, not your title. You know, we've had. We've had different, uh, CEOs talk to us about that, but it's making sure that your audio matches your visual. Um, what you say and what you do are in sync. Uh, you know, people, they build the trust through you're being visible in your consistent actions during those first nine days. Are you consistent? Are you visible? Are you out there? And people test you early. You know, they say to themselves, do you understand us? Do you understand what you're walking into? Do you understand us as a group? Do you understand our culture? And it's earned through these small moments, not big speeches or emails you send out or posters you have put up in the facility. Um, we had a great, uh, story with, uh, uh, Grover Martin. He was one of Neil's first, uh, uh, ah, CEOs. At Neil's first job, and his first day he was there, everybody was waiting for him. The other CEO was, uh, let go, and they were all waiting up front for the new CEO to come in, as people do. And they saw him pull up and he walked through the parking lot and he picked up trash. And everybody in Neil's group was, like, looking around going, what's he doing? He picked up trash in the parking lot, came in, didn't, uh, say a word, threw it in the trash. But again, from day one, um, when Neil told me the story, he said that he never had to pick up another piece of trash. And the whole time he was. He was their new CEO. And that team permanently changed their behavior. And I think in business, it's a great story. Jeff Bezos leaves an empty chair for the customer, and that's authority through action. And he does that. He does that every time.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Uh, Neil, anything To add to that.

Speaker B: Yeah. So Grover was the first person I had ever seen using as a symbolic act. So the other thing that he did, we had a bullpen all. And we were all executive trainees. There were like five of us in a bullpen, and we would answer the phones and get orders.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And, um, Grover one time was walking by the bullpen and the guys, as guys do, we were joshing and messing around, and the phone started ringing. Grover never said a word. He walked over, picked up the phone. Grover Martin, how can I help you? He took the order, handed it to us, and walked away again. Never said a word. But we knew. And from then on, if the phone rang, guys were jumping over their desks to make sure that Grover never answered the phone again.

Speaker C: Right. Yeah.

Speaker A: It's amazing how those symbolic gestures, however slight and impromptu, uh, can shape a culture forever, you know?

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that I don't know that Grover's were on purpose. It's just who he was. Um, there we talk a lot about symbolic acts, and we think that you can actually, uh, come up with ones that, that fit your authenticity.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: That. That are going to make a difference. Um, but, yeah, I think Grovers were just off the cuff.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. You know, another topic I wanted to talk about. I know you, you're both big on the topic of listening, uh, which I, uh, tell anybody that'll listen. You know, I did well as a leader both in the Marine Corps and in the corporate America. If people ask me, Mike, what's one skill you wish you picked up earlier? It would have been listening. I don't think I listener, but it took me till my mid-40s. I got with a really good boss who was a seasoned executive, and that guy was the best, most skilled listener I've ever come in contact with. Really listen to listen instead of what I was doing. Like many people is listening so the other guy can stop talking so I can. Right, right.

Speaker B: Listening to respond.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, I got the answer, you know, and I realized I was guilty as charged. So I'm really. I love this topic. I try to teach it now of my own fail brings to my clients. So let's. Let's talk about it. Um. Um. A lot of people would say that's a soft skill. I think you're of the opinion that it's part of a structured leadership system. Um, what's your thoughts on listening? The art of.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So it's got to be intentional and it's got to be structured. Listen beyond just your Direct reports go deeper into the organization. You're looking for patterns, not just an isolated incident or two, right? And then this is the crux. When people say you don't listen, what they really mean is you're not acting on the things that they're telling you. So act visibly, act on. Or if you're not going to act on it, then you tell them why. You give them a real reason why. Um, Nobody, I call it the water in a well, right? Nobody wants to just keep pouring water into a well. It just keeps going, right? They want to see differences. Um, we had one guy, Jay Robinson, um, He, uh, runs two Kaiser hospitals up in the Pacific Northwest. He's a CEO, and he says when he went in, he had 242 leaders in his organization, director level and above. 242. And he met with every single one of them. But the thing that he did that's a little bit different is he went to them, didn't ask them to come to his office. He went to their office. But the real thing that he did was, number one, he asked each one

Speaker C: of them

Speaker B: if we've made positive changes, what has changed in the first 90 days. Then he took all of those things that everybody said he had somebody taking notes for him, and they bubbled up the eight or ten things that were the most important for that 242 leadership group. And then that was where he started changing things and building his strategy around.

Speaker A: I, I absolutely love that. And I want to throw out a little anecdote myself. I, uh, I agree with, you know, listening to people. I, in fact, every, I learned long ago, every time I took over a department, you know, the audience is looking at, you know, who's this guy? Or whatever. They may or may not know me. And I say, listen, I know you've heard this before, but I promise you, I will always listen to you. And I see some of you out there like, yeah, we have heard it all before. The last guy said, they don't listen. I said, now listen, I promise I will listen to you, but I can't promise I will always act on your recommendations. Sometimes it'll be a great idea. We just don't have the budget or the timeline to do it, or I can't get approval for it. Others, I just don't think it's a good idea. But I will always listen. And I, I have always had people come up to me and say, you know, that's fair. That's all someone can ask, is that you will absolutely listen. And, and Then weigh it on its merits and all of that. Kurt, any thoughts on this?

Speaker C: Well, the same thing. I mean, listening is very hard for somebody in the first, you know, as they get into their job and as they transition to that first 90 days, that's the one thing they should be doing, is listening. That's their first. That's, you know, they owe that to the people that work with them. So when they come in and sometimes they're. They're pushed to make decisions right away. Um, they owe it to everybody to listen to what they have to say first. Listening first. Yeah.

Speaker A: I love it. Well, another phrase that, you know, you've. You use, I've done, you know, listen to you on a couple podcasts is the phrase of be quick, but don't hurry. Um, so I think I know what that means, but I want to ask, uh, either of you to opine on that. Um, how does that happen? What's it. How is it material to somebody in a new role within the first 90 days? Be quick, but don't hurry.

Speaker C: Sure. It's. And it comes from John Wooden, if everybody remembers John Wooden, uh, NCAA basketball coach for ucla, I think seven or seven straight national championships, uh, two undefeated seasons. And what John Wooden meant by that just simply is move fast in learning, but don't move fast in decisions. So, and again, somebody said, well, expand it further. Act quickly to learn, then move deliberately, Mike, to change. Um, the sequence is listen first, make sure you understand, then act. And in that first 90 days, avoid those reactive decisions and show progress without forcing change. And I think that's very important. We had a CEO, um, came into a new opportunity, and he was pushed by the board to establish a new strategic plan. He listened to the board, obviously one of the people he reports to, uh, but he kept getting, uh, pushed on that. Uh, uh, the board kept saying, you know, how are we progressing? I think it was week two. How are you doing with the strategic plan? He said, well, I'm still learning. But he was doing the right thing. He was walking around, he was doing rounds. He was meeting with his people. He was on the nursing floor one day, and everybody was talking about this new strategic plan and, you know, waiting in anticipation. What's it going to look like? How's it going to change? And the nurse pulled him aside, and he said, you know, uh, you're the new CEO. And he goes, yes, I am. That's correct. He goes. She goes, can I. Can I offer some advice? He said, absolutely. She goes, we don't need. Need a new strategic Plan we need IV pumps that work to help our patients. And he said, right then he said, I knew what my priority was. He listened. He understood he could make that change immediately and it would affect the patients, which is his ultimate job, and make those patients better. Again, these deliberate leadership wins early on. Set your legacy and get people to trust you that you listen to him. You changed. It was something he could accomplish. It was symbolic action could be fixed right away. It wasn't a five year plan or part of a strategy, strategic plan.

Speaker A: Well, the follow on question to that I have is, uh, I get it about, uh, you know, I understand what you're talking about now. Be quick, don't hurry. We have a saying in the Marine Corps, you know, they, they bring you aggressive, aggressive, aggressive in combat. But there's also a time where judgment comes in. We, there's another saying. It says, be aggressive, but do not run to your death. Don't run to your death. In other words, sometimes the, the enemy has ambushed you and they're expecting the reaction force to come and they're really after the reaction force. So you get marines and this has happened in real life. So you got vehicles careening down the road. We're going to go rescue our buddies. And you're the main ambush they have. Ah, they're waiting for you. And you've just rushed to your death and all of that. So relative to what you just said, Kurt, about people, uh, the timing of it, obviously, uh, he was getting pushed and it sounded like that CEO was someone that was not going to fall prey to being pushed by the board. Then he realized, um, based on the advice, uh, it wasn't a strategic plan. They needed stuff at the tactical level, on the patient level. I want to ask you, uh, so we can teach leaders here. You can teach leaders first 90 days or anytime in a leadership role, um, how do you make sure that you have prudent timing and don't misjudge your timing or force a schedule because you think it's expected of you or it is expected of you. Somebody say by, by 90 days. I need a new strategic plan, new strategy, new verticals or whatever. So I'll stop blathering and turn it over to you.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, and you know what? That's where the art of leadership comes in. Right? Is m really trying to understand because frankly, most people who are leaders, or exactly what you said, Mike, we're kind of aggressive. You, you described them as meat eaters before, right? Uh, I'm a meat eater. Kurt's a meat eater. You're a meat eater. Right. Um, if there's a wall, sometimes I've run through the wall. Right. Um, it hurt. Uh, I think that, uh, as I, as I get older, I'm running through a lot less walls. Um, but it's moving too fast without truly understanding the culture. And everybody's going to be pushing you to do. And instead of that, what we're counseling leaders to do is pull back, negotiate up, ah, front that you're not going to do those things and that you're going to be prudent about the changes that you're going to make. And, um, you have a lot of power before you take the job, uh, especially if they really want you. Where you can, you can go in and set expectations and don't allow them to set, um, unrealistic expectations and frankly push them back a little bit. Um, make the timetable, if you think you can do it 90 days, make the timetable 180 days.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Ah, because when you've done it 90, then, uh, then you're going to be a hero. Um, you know, but then you also don't want to wait too long, especially on really obvious issues. Um, but that, that also brings me to another one, and that is if there are really obvious issues, my suggestion to somebody is make them do it before you even arrive. So let's, let's talk about an example. You've got a CEO who got fired and they have two henchmen that they brought with that. Everybody in the organization knows that they're the old CEOs, people. They don't fit the culture, they don't fit the organization. And everybody says, we're going to wait for the new CEO and then he can fire them. I'm like, no, no, no. You make them do it, then you don't have it on you. Right. If it's real obvious, have them do it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. I want to do a personal anecdote on that one too, for the listeners. I mentioned before that I was a totally untrained, unqualified, individually be put in as a CIO in front of a, you know, 175 person, uh, tech group, 45 million dollar budget. Not, uh, really sure how to save a file at that time in 1999.

Speaker B: Hey, don't feel like the lone Ranger, Mike. I was there too.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yes. But to your point, Neil, um, about a week before I took over the CEO and, and coo, they knew that the tech group was, they had some bad apples in there and they cleaned house before I got There. So to your point, I was inheriting a group that was very troubled. They knew they were troubled, but they had just lost about 30 people. They didn't make me come in and reinvent the wheel. And now everybody's identifying Mike Etor as the guy.

Speaker B: The first thing he did was hatchet man, right?

Speaker A: Which, which scares everybody else. Like, well, this guy doesn't.

Speaker B: Nobody will trust you. Nobody will trust you.

Speaker A: So that's a great point you're making. And I want to emphasize to the audience, anybody that's listening to this, um, what Neil just shared with you on this one is absolute gold. If you're the leader and you need to do it before somebody else takes over a department, do it. And if you're about to take over something, dig your heels in and say, look, we all know this needs to be done. Why don't you do it before I get there? So my first symbolic act is not firing somebody, right? Or any. Any thoughts on this?

Speaker C: You guys covered it?

Speaker A: Okay, Great, great. Well, we've talked about symbolic actions in the. And, you know, a few minutes ago, I'd like to talk a little bit more about them. I, uh, think people are listening to it, and I, I. We all know what you're talking about. Now, in concept, can you give us some specific examples that you. That worked very early on to, uh, shape organizational culture?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And a little bit bigger picture on the symbolic act. So you want them to be visible, simple, and intentional, so they signal what matters without explanation. Because people tend to believe what they see more than what you say, or they believe more what you do more than what you say. Uh, make sure they align with your priorities. Um, and frankly, one strong symbolic act can outweigh months of messaging, hundreds of emails, right? So we had one. So in healthcare today, Mike, um, everybody understands that he who attracts and retains employees wins. It's really, really difficult to find employees, right? And you can't pay more because there's no money. So if you can attract and retain, retain and attract employees. So we had a new CEO came in, and his first day, pulls up to the hospital, and he notices that his parking spot is right next to hospital. There's a big, big hospital, right? They had, like, five parking lots, and his parking space CEO was right next to the hospital, along with his whole executive team. So he walks into his first meeting, and he. And he kind of sets him up. He said, so what are our issues? What are the most important? And somebody says, we have to be able to attract great people, and we have to retain our people. And he said, I'm glad you said that. Um, what we're going to do to show our people that they are the most important is there's no more executive parking. That parking spaces. Those parking spaces are now for the employees of the month of each department. And we, as the executive team are going to park in the farthest lot from the hospital. And we're going to use that time every morning to greet our employees as we're walking through the parking lot. And we're going to show them that they are important in our actions, not in our words.

Speaker A: I love that. Absolutely. Uh, that's. That's a great one. Um, wow. Um, do you have any more. I mean, that. That was so good. I gotta ask you to. Got another one.

Speaker B: So. So, one of my favorites, I was interviewing a guy one time, and he told me about, um, a guy by the name of Doug Hawthorne. He run.

Speaker C: He.

Speaker B: He put together the largest, ah, hospital system in, uh, in Dallas, ah, and Fort Worth, Texas Health Resources. But he ran, um, and he ran it for 20 years. Um, and he said when Doug Hawthorne came into your hospital, as he was, you know, he reported to the CEO, reported to Hawthorne. Hawthorne, uh, would come to your hospital. If he was walking through your hospital and there was a light bulb that was out, he didn't yell, he didn't scream, he didn't point it out. He went and got a ladder and crawled up there and changed the light bulb right then and there. Well, that doesn't have to happen more than once when everybody gets the message. Right? Nobody wants Doug Hawthorne on a ladder changing a, uh, a light bulb in your hospital. Yeah, right. Um, and it was, listen, the look of this thing matters. We're not a c. Organization. We're an a organization, and everything needs to be right. But he didn't yell, he didn't scream. He just did it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Very similar to Grover. Grover picking up the garbage.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. I love these. I love these symbolic gestures. I. I've always appreciated them. Uh, sometimes after the fact, after I've seen them, you realize, you know, what he did that first week, I didn't know it then, but he shaped the entire culture of this company by what he said, did or didn't do. Uh, and I knew where you were going on the parking spot anecdote, uh, because I've seen that happen before. Absolutely. Seen it happen before. So good on him. Well, listen, um, again, new leader, new role. First 90 days. Obviously the guy, or gals, got to make decisions. How important is it for that leader to get in there and really assess and decode the culture that he's inheriting or stepping into, uh, before he makes obviously critical decisions.

Speaker C: Well, culture is. People define as different things, Mike, but it's really a living entity within the facility. It's. It's a facility personality, if you will. And culture is a multiplier. People say, what do you mean by that, Kurt? Well, it could be tenfold. You could have one great symbolic act, but misread the culture and wipe all those out. It's 10 times. Because culture is so important, and misreading it, and this is a key for our listeners, it destroys credibility. Uh, an informal influencer sometimes matter most. They're the ones that can tell you about culture. You have to listen. And we talked about listening earlier, and you must really observe before changing anything. We had a CEO, uh, uh, very successful. He actually wrote a great book. It's called Reviving the Heart of Leadership. His name was Jim Decker. And this one may seem minor, but his first meeting, he wanted to show up and, uh, set the tone. So a new Dunkin Donuts had opened up in town. So his first big, big staff meeting, he had Dunkin Donuts. He brought them in. People kind of looked at him and picked through them and kind of a couple people took a couple of them. Uh, and after the meeting, uh, one of his, uh, employees that was Loyal Zone came up and said, boy, um, I don't mean to despaired your first meeting, but you really missed the point. He said, what are you talking about? Well, little did he know they've used the same baker for the last 20 years. That Baker was actually also one of the big sponsors of the hospital. And sometimes the baker's, um, baked goods were used in the cafeteria. So he fell on his sword, said, yes, I made a mistake. It was a little thing. But what he said, what, what the. His employees interpret is he doesn't understand us yet. So that first 90 days, next meeting, he had it corrected. He went to the baker, told him what he did. The baker laughed. He said, here's need. This person likes these. Here's this person like these. Make sure you get one of these for these. And he said. And then. So again, he was genuine about. I goofed up last time. He actually told it the next meetings, I messed up. We'll have this from now on. Uh, please, please, you know, uh, please excuse me, but great, uh, story.

Speaker A: I love that story. Um, I want to ask you, you know, so obviously the takeaway is you got to get in There and assess, decode the culture. Uh, how could that CEO have done that? And how can another leader do that? In other words, I'm launching into a new company, new culture. I hear what the board says. We have a culture of excellence. But what they say or what's on the wall, the words on the wall in the lobby, is often not what really happens. How can somebody effectively get a feel for what really is the culture of an organization?

Speaker C: Well, we talked about earlier, Mike. Uh, listening first, um, finding out who the informal influencers are. Uh, maybe before your first meeting, ask who your support staff is. Who usually controls these meetings? Who is, who's the person that's saying the most, or maybe not saying the least, but is leading the meeting. You know, they basically are controlling the meeting. How do these meetings go? You know, what's the end result? Um, and then, like you said from day one, just trying to find out everything you can prior to the first 90 days. What about the hospital? Talk to some people in town who are the major influencers, because many people support that hospital financially. Talk to the businesses that do. Find out what happened with the last CEO, what happens, what the problems were, um, what was the last opinion of the last CEO in the community? So finding all that up front prior to that first day, one will tell you a lot about the culture and how you have to react. Your first, Your first day on the job.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love this. And I want to. Go ahead, Neil.

Speaker B: Yeah, we had one CEO that, uh, he said, you know what I do. Physicians in hospitals are incredibly important. They're basically the customer of the hospital, and they're the engine that drives everything in a hospital. And, uh, this CEO said, you know, what I do is I go to everybody in leadership, and I asked them, who are the five most influential physicians? Then he takes all the lists, and he comes up with a list of the true 10 most influential physicians. And then he meets with all of them and really tries to get them on, on his team and tries to understand what they want, what they need, what they like, what they don't like. Um, and that's how he's able to truly understand the culture. And then. And then work to, to, to. To fix it and, and, and, and make it better.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. Um, I want to ask you, you know, we've talked about some good things that people can do, and the flip side of that coin is, obviously you've experienced or seen or heard of people go in there and do some things that you just destroyed your credibility right off the Bat. What are some of the most common early missteps that you have seen or, um, or heard of people doing that really kind of blew them out of the water before they even had a chance?

Speaker B: Well, and we've talked about it, um, making personnel changes too quickly, um, ignoring kind of the informal power structures, uh, over relying on title authority, and then truly acting before you understand what's going on. I've said before, sometimes it's better to do nothing than to do the wrong thing. Especially early on, after you've got five years of credibility, you can make a misstep and everybody forgives you. But, boy, early on, let me tell you something. When I, When I went out with my wife the first time, if I hadn't opened the door for her, I'd have been in deep trouble today. I don't have to, but 35 years

Speaker C: ago, yeah,

Speaker A: that's a symbolic gesture for sure. And her mother and father.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: I'm sure her mom taught her to look for that gesture as well. You know, it's an early indicator of where you were at. So you passed the test, Neil, obviously. So some of these mistakes you observed, um, what do you feel are the ones that people make that are. Of the ones you listed are even more. What are the hardest to recover from? You know, the guy goes in. Gal goes in first. 90 days, does something she really shouldn't. This is tough.

Speaker C: Which.

Speaker A: Which of them one are very, very hard to overcome. And then how can they overcome them?

Speaker C: Um, breaking trust early. Mike, uh, my father told me this one time, and it was a great, uh, antidote, if you will. But it's, um. He said, it's hard to talk your way out of something you behave yourself into. And basically, that was a public misstep that signaled poor judgment. Um, again, we talked about misreading culture, uh, failure to listen. Uh, a lot of this is you're on stage all the time. Everybody's looking to what you actually do. We talked about this earlier, um, and public symbolic misstep. Wrong tone, wrong message. Organization loses confidence. I remember Winston Churchill showed up in Africa when the British armist was almost being pushed, uh, into Cairo. And he showed up at El Alamein in person to say. He showed up during that crisis to say, I'm with you. I'm here with you. And that set the tone. And if everybody knows, after that, the battle was won, and, uh, the Axis was pushed out of Northern Africa. But his absence would have destroyed that trust. And that's. The trust is, Is hard to recover from. But how do you recover from it? I mean, first of all, admit you made a mistake. Second of all, own it and own it. Most importantly my point, uh, don't be disingenuous about owning it and also be very honest about how you're going to fix it and how it won't happen again.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you for that. I'm curious to what you fellas think about the importance of, uh, the role of coaching and peer networking, um, to help a leader, uh, survive and successfully navigate those first 90 days. Uh, good thing to do.

Speaker B: Uh, I think so. Right. Um, I think that, I mean, one of the things that we counsel, uh, our people in is once you've taken a job, even before you start, reach out to your, um, network your mentors, um, and tell them what you're going into, get advice from them, and then continue to get advice as, uh, as you're moving through. Right. Don't do anything big without running it through, uh, some of your, uh, strongest mentors, uh, who can help give advice. Because there are a lot of times that people make, um, mistakes that I, I'll tell you. Well, I'll give you an example that I had a, A CEO call me the other day and he said, hey, I'm thinking about taking, uh, this job. And I said, that's a mistake. Uh, nobody ever calls me and expects me. They know that I'm going to give them what I truly believe. I said, don't do it. Said, everybody I know that goes with this organization, in three months, they're looking again, don't do it. Don't do it. But, uh, I also know people who have taken jobs at that organization who didn't make the call, who didn't ask for advice. Right. I, um, also think that coaching is going to accelerate your awareness. One of the things that we say is most hospital executives might have seven to 10 jobs in their career,

Speaker C: but

Speaker B: if you're dealing with somebody who's counseled 500 people who have taken new positions, they probably know, uh, certain things to do and not to do. Um, most people, once they take a job, they forgot their first 90 days. By the time they're seven years in, they have no idea. They don't remember what they did day one. Right. And you're starting over again, versus if you've got, uh, if you've got the help, um, a structure, a template to work from. M. You're not going to miss anything. And I know you were in the Marine Corps. Um, uh, I'm a, I'm a big believer in checklists and templates. Right. Um, uh, I still remember the very first time I ever flew with my father. He was an airline pilot. We had a little Cessna airplane. Ah. And we got in and there was a checklist. And I'm like, dad, you fly 737s. Why, uh, why do you need a checklist? He said, um, I, uh, I don't, I don't fly an airplane without going through a checklist.

Speaker C: Yeah. And if I can add. Let's not forget the highest paid superstars in Major League Baseball. The hitters, they get coached on every pitch from, um, either the first base coach or the third base coach, depending on what side of the plate they hit. From every pitch, they look to the coach for advice. And these are guys making 7, 60, 70, 80 million, some $700 million a year.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well said. I, I did a podcast interview early on with the Fidelis podcast. I can't remember the fellow's name now. We're still in touch. But he was a coach, uh, a, uh, skills coach for the Yankees when they were really good. And uh, anyway, the press started saying that a Rod was slowing down to his left, having trouble moving to his left. And a Rod read, let, read that, that the height of his fame, superstar and came to this guy and said, hey, I don't know if this is true, but they think it's true. Let's do some drills. What do you got for me? And. And he started running him through. He got better going to his left, but the team saw that and they said, you know, if a Rod's doing that, maybe I should do some of these as well. So I, I love that and I think Neil, uh, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but, uh, you're a fan obviously of coaching and all of that and you're, you know, you're, you, you honed in on the 90 days, you know, uh, focused, you know, coaching. You've counseled so many people through this. Uh, one of the lessons I took from that implied lessons was whenever you're going to do something that you haven't done before, it's been a while, maybe get focus coaching. And the thing that came to mind was as you know, most acquisitions and integrations fail. And I think a, uh, leader executive that's about to do one should go out and talk to somebody that's got expertise in integrations and acquisitions. So I think coaching A is important. I'm a coach, but there are times when I say love to help you. I'm, um, not Your guy, you really no need to go talk to her because, because she's, she's forgotten more about this than I do. I don't want to take your money. So any, any follow up thoughts on that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I, the one thing that I would say is, you know, the 90 days is a, is a catchphrase. Is, is a, uh, is a, is a way to focus things. But the reality is, is what happens next, the next, the next 90 and the next 90 and the next 90and the next. You string together enough. Ah, good. 90 days. Um, and that's a tenure. That's a five year tenure. Um, we're not really saying at the end of 90 days everything's done. Um, we're just saying let's focus on those 90 days, uh, and then work through that first year. Because a successful 90 days means you're more likely to have a successful year, which means you're more likely to have a successful tenure.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with that. And I want to reiterate what we spoke about early up front was we're mentioning the 90 days. I'm bringing it up quite a bit.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: But we're really talking about leadership here and we're all experienced here. And I can tell you, as you know, and for the younger leaders out there, everything that's been discussed so far in this podcast applies at 90 days. Two hundred ninety, a thousand ninety. We're talking leadership and interactions with people. So thank you for that. That said, I wanted to get your thoughts on, you know, a lot of our listeners may not be aware of that. You're keenly aware of it. The track record of new executives showing up at companies, uh, and their survivability is not good. A high percentage of them aren't there six, uh, months or a year later. What, um, do you think how, how important do you feel onboarding, effective onboarding at the executive level, uh, can be to, to make that executive stick for all the right reasons.

Speaker C: Sure. And I think, Mike, what you're asking, what can organizations do to help that onboarding process?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: Um, well, treat onboarding as strategic, not administrative. I mean, think about it from a strategic standpoint. That's important. And to provide a structured 90 day roadmap. A leadership itinerary, if you will. That's what I like to call it. And this is not a strategic plan, but this is a, uh, leadership itinerary. And make sure that the board, if it is the board that's governing over this, the board and the executive expectations are announced early. This is what we're going to expect our new leader to do let people know the challenge he's going to face prior to him getting there. So he's on board and it's just not him showing up and saying, this is what I have to change. This is what the board wants to change. And by doing that, they build support for their new leaders, letting them know the expectations, the challenges we face, the hurdles we're going to have to overcome, and the successes they expect. And leaders that enter with pre aligned board expectations, they execute quickly. Their trust is already established to a certain extent by the board and that's just very helpful. That's what organizations really need to focus on. To make sure. You mentioned earlier in our last, uh, section we were talking about, but you and you, we expanded on the first 90 days and you hear football coaches say this all the time, Mike, you don't lose a football game in the first quarter, but it sure can make it hard to win in the fourth quarter.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that's so, so true. Well, listen, our time is coming short here, so I want to help, uh, or I want to solicit your executive summary, so to speak, if, if you had to distill this conversation down into, let's say, one concrete takeaway for the audience, if you do listen to nothing, listen to this one, take this one away, put it in the bank, what would it be?

Speaker C: What we said earlier is focus on trust first and strategy second. Um, be visible, listen deeply. Show, uh, people who you are through your actions. Um, we had a CEO, Dan Castillo at County USC Medical center in Los Angeles. And his first, uh, his first day at work, he showed up in the midnight shift where a lot of things happen, as we all know, in a hospital, but a lot of people don't. A lot of leaders aren't there during that time and it became the talk of a hospital the next day. But he was visible. And historically, I always liked the story about Dwight D. Eisenhower, um, when he was in charge, the day before D day, he met with the troops directly. His presence built that trust. So being there is half the battle.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Well, I have to ask you, uh, one behavior that all leaders should start and do immediately and one behavior that they probably should avoid at all costs.

Speaker B: I think, uh, a behavior that they should do, uh, immediately is the active, the active listening, um, with intentionality. I'm, I'm big on intention. Right. Really focus and really think about what you need to do and, and then do it. Right. Um, what should you not do? Um, you probably shouldn't start with breaking the eggs. Even though you got to make an omelette, you might be gentle at first.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, we've spoken a lot about the first 90 days. So for the listeners out there, the audience that are listening and watching to this, that are truly in their first 90 days, the question is, what happens after 90 days? Uh, you know, the 90 days is up. They survived. They built trust and all that. Um, is it just rinse and repeat what they've done for the first 90 or, you know, what do you think?

Speaker B: Well, I think that, um, you can move into a new level, uh, and into a new phase. Once you've built that trust, uh, once people trust you and once you've earned the right to lead them, then, um, you can start making those strategic moves. Um, the trust is going to become a leverage, um, your strategy is going to become executable, um, and you can start shifting the culture.

Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, our time is up. Uh, but I can't let, uh, you fellas out of here without asking you the fantasy question I asked every guest. So this is the first time I had two on. So both of you need to answer this one, if you will. If you could bring back one leader from the past and spend a day with that person, who would you choose and why? Neil. What? Let's start with you.

Speaker B: I thought about that one. I really did. Um, this may not be culturally, um, uh, uh, the right. The right move, but I would love to meet and speak to Robert E. Lee. Uh, I think he might be one of the greatest military minds, uh, uh, ever. Um, and he was. He was so gentle, and his people adored him.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, uh, and I also think he made some great decisions, um, uh, when he knew that the south was. Lou was going to lose. Uh, you know, he surrendered way earlier than a lot of people wanted, saved a lot of lives. And then he demanded that, uh, that the, uh, Confederate, uh, uh, uh, men be able to keep their horses and their guns. And that was a big deal for these. For these rural guys.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I am a, uh, kind of an amateur Civil War buff. You can't be a marine without it. We study these battles. And he absolute, absolutely was a strategic and tactical genius. There's no doubt about it. The conventional wisdom of the people that do study him hard is that if he had the industrial base and resources that the Union forces had, you know, it probably. Our country would probably be named differently today. You know, the south well, what I

Speaker B: would say is that if Stonewall Jackson hadn't gotten shot by one of his own people. But that's just me, uh, fog of war right there.

Speaker C: I remember, uh, listening to, I think, with Shelby Foote, and he was talking about Robert E. Lee. At one time, a, uh, private was brought in front of him for some infraction. I don't know what it was, but he was trembling. You know, you're talking, sit in front of the commanding general, not. And Robert E. Lee said, son, don't worry. He said, you'll get justice here. And he said, yes, sir. That's what I'm afraid of.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker C: But to, uh, answer your question, I would say on the other side of that, Abraham Lincoln. I love the quote he had one time. He said, all men can withstand hardship and tough times. He goes, but a true test of a man's crucible, if you will, is to give him power and how he reacts to it. I would love to talk to him about power and leadership.

Speaker A: Yeah, both great choices. Uh, I don't know if we've had Robert E. Lee before. Lincoln's a popular one. Uh, and just, uh, both great choices, fellas. Thank you so much. But again, before we let you go, um, how can our audience reach out to you if they desire? And I think you mentioned the book that's upcoming. When. What is that, and when will it be published?

Speaker B: We're writing. We're writing, Mike. And the way that we do that is through. We've got a series of articles that'll be coming out on, um, the old framework was the articles about, um, tactics that, uh, specific people had done. Next is going to be kind of a step by step. Um, so it'll be a series of articles over the next year or so. At the end of that, you put everything together and there's your book. So it'll probably be a year. Um, as far as, uh, in touch with us, we're both active and on LinkedIn. Um, Kurt Mosley and Neil Marshall, uh, separate, uh, um, and then, uh, our organization, Health Search Partners, has a website. It's www.healthsearchpartners.com. just like it sounds.

Speaker A: Got it.

Speaker C: And all of our. All of our thought leadership is on there, Mike. Leadership, uh, uh, articles. We write podcasts. And if I could close, if we do have any CEOs that are listening and have had a symbolic act and really have, uh, taken this to heart, we sure love to hear from them. We'd love to include their stories as we go forward. And try to finish up this book and put it into print.

Speaker A: I love it. I love it. Well, good luck with the book, fellows, and I can't thank you enough for, uh. Thank you for coming here and sharing. It's been intriguing. And, uh, I'll give you what I believe. I mean to be a compliment. I don't think either of you realize how much you sound like leadership instructors at Quantico, Virginia. In other words, leadership fundamentals that you are espousing is exactly what I was taught as a young enlisted marine and an officer. And the reality I tell people is good leadership is good leadership. I don't care what book it is. If you've got experienced leaders are tapping into the wisdom of the ages. And most of the fundamentals kind of carry over from one concept, one philosophy, to the other. And so I loved what you said. And leaders out there listening to this, take what these two gentlemen said to the bank. You'll get no finer tutorial in an hour or so. So thank you, gents. I, uh. I respectfully and humbly ask that you consider coming back and doing another one one day.

Speaker B: Yeah, we will.

Speaker C: We will.

Speaker B: Thanks, Mike.

Speaker A: You're welcome. Have a great day, fellas.

Speaker C: You do, too.

Speaker B: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. Please subscribe, rate, review, review, and recommend to your friends. Please visit our website@fidelisleadership.com and sign up for our leadership newsletter. Until next time, Remember the words of the ancient Greek philosopher Heracles. What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but is woven in the lives of others.