Sugar Lake Leadership Lodge: Building Better Leaders in the Great Outdoors

Speaker A: Welcome to Explore Minnesota.

Speaker B: More.

Speaker A: I'm Sarah Stroman, Commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources.

Speaker C: And I'm Lauren Bennett McGinty, executive director of Explore Minnesota. Okay, picture this. It's negative 10 degrees. This seems to be a theme for us on this podcast. It's snowing sideways, and your colleague is 30ft up a pole about to jump from a trapeze.

Speaker A: Okay, well, I'm afraid of heights, so I don't know about this, but I'm very excited. Today we're headed to Sugar Lake Lodge up in Grand Rapids, where Abby Oxborough runs something called Leadership Lodge, a program that takes the corporate retreat, the truss falls, and the icebreakers and basically throws them out the window in favor of dog sleds, bonfires, and building bridges out of cardboard in the rain. Plus, Sugar Lake Lodge sits on 400 acres of forest, lakefront, and outdoor spaces. So Abby had me right there.

Speaker C: So aside from the negative 10 degrees, it's basically a summer camp for adults as we're learning. And it's personal for Abby, too, because Sugar Lake is the property her family rebuilt out of bankruptcy back in the early 90s. So after the old lodge burned down, she was six years old walking through the rubble, and her parents decided to take it on. And now she's running one of the more interesting leadership programs we've come across, built entirely around getting people out of their comfort zone and getting people outside, which we love on this podcast.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And Abby would tell you that's the whole point. For example, bad weather isn't a bug in her program. It's a feature. This is learning through experience. And so Abby genuinely prefers when things go sideways, I guess, like real life sometimes does. And she'll explain exactly why that's true

Speaker C: and whether you are a leader aiming to be a leader, or you just want to learn a little bit more about how in Minnesota, we take leadership very seriously. Stick around, because Abby also gets into why Gen Z is hungry for exactly this kind of experience. How a week in the elements turn strangers into your best friends by day five, and what actually changes in someone by the time they drive home on Sunday.

Speaker A: Okay, so we've got sled dogs, cardboard bridges, and hot chocolate by the fire. Let's get into it.

Speaker D: Come explore Minnesota. It's a hootin. Don't you know about the marvelous Minnesotan Tour Creatin and promoting different spaces and adventures to explore our great outdoors. And since you're here, you'll hear the reasons to enjoy all of, uh, our seasons since the North Star states, 10,000 lakes and all space in between is the perfect place to venture with your friends and family.

Speaker E: Just to get us started, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about your story, how you ended up where you are right now, that would be great.

Speaker B: Sure. Can do. Abby Oxborough. I actually, uh, grew up here at Sugar Lake Lodge. So in the early 90s, my parents bought and built this prop property in 1993, um, out of bankruptcy. The previous owners had, uh, given up on it about, you know, well into the, the late 80s. So, um, I have such a distinct memory when I was six years old, coming to walk around when we first decided that we were going to do this and um, everything was in shambles. I mean it was as expected, right? Uh, the main lodge had burnt down in the late 80s, so we were walking through rubble of stuff and seeing uh, just remnants of this, this older place. But the, the one thing that stayed intact was the outdoor pool which overlooks the lake. And um, it was such a, an interesting thing to see as a, as a six year old thinking there's no way you're going to clean this place up. Like, it is disgusting. This pool looks like there's a lot growing in it. Um, and so, yeah, we, you know, we, we brought it in with. We built this big main lodge. Um, it took about a year and a half and extended the golf course, uh, to be 18 holes and um, redid the restaurant. And the, the biggest focus, we come from the Rutger family. So my dad is part of the Rutger family. Bay Lake, um, Rutgers. Bay Lake Lodge is where he got his experience from. His great grandfather, his uncle, um, and his cousin who owns it, owned it until now. Um, that's him on my wall. That's my grandpa. Um, so hospitality has been in our blood for, you know, back to the early, early days of our ancestors back in Germany. Um, and so being able to be brought up in this environment and, you know, I grew up running around, getting to know all of the staff every summer and um, it has become such a, an integral part of my DNA. It's just this place feels so much like home. So being able to come back and take on what my dad started is, uh, it's a huge privilege and a major responsibility.

Speaker E: So as you noted, you don't get a nap until November.

Speaker B: No, I'll never nap again.

Speaker E: I don't think so. Um, to talk about the leadership Lodge program at Sugar Lake.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker E: Um, yeah, take me to the start of that. Sugar Lake has hosted business groups for years. What was the moment you realized this place could help develop leaders, not just host them?

Speaker B: Yeah, great question. From the very beginning, we hosted uh, a community leadership program that uh, was integral to various communities throughout Minnesota. Um, it was funded by the Blandon foundation here in Grand Rapids. And it was a cohort, uh, program that actually brought people in for an entire week, uh, which is really hard to do of course, when you have a real job and a family and immersed them in a, an area where there were minimal distractions. And the, the main point was to take leadership and build it into your personality and what it is that you could actually bring back and utilize as, you know, being a functioning member of society. And I think what we started to see right away was that there was such a need for that specific interaction and instruction. And everything that we started to offer was nature focused. So we were doing activities on the lake, we were utilizing the golf course. Um, in the wintertime there was, you know, I was very focused on survival skills and cross country skiing and you know, literally making your own snowshoes and that kind of thing. So it was always. So it's been very experiential and I, you know, Covid hit and a lot of those programs were no longer, there was no longer funding, which is really unfortunate. But it allowed us to kind of pivot and see that we were already utilizing um, the property to really invest in new leaders. And it was almost like uh, just a natural progression to bring people in and show what experiential learning really looks like. And the value of actually simulating problems as opposed to sitting in front of uh, a screen for hours at a conference. It became so clear that that's where the value was. And I honestly attribute the COVID crisis to this because nobody knew how to communicate and nobody knew how to get back to the interactions that they needed. And for us to be able to bring people outside where one, it was safe and two, um, they could get back to learning. And really experiencing was that's when it clicked that the Leadership Lodge really is this facility and we're very, very good at what we do. And it's, it's really built around that like humanity piece and humility. Like we're, we're doing the best we can all day, every day, and everybody is. And for us to get together and say it's okay to do that and, and try new things and fail at it, uh, I think that really made the big difference, um, for groups that experience this, uh, yeah.

Speaker E: What makes you Believe the outdoors, the rights vehicle for this type of work,

Speaker B: uh, it's, it's transformative, honestly. Not to be dramatic, but to get people outside together is the only way that you're in an element that you're sometimes uncomfortable with. You don't have control over the weather, um, fresh air is infinitely great for you and your thinking processes. Um, but for us to utilize, you know, the clarity of Sugar Lake and the, the trails that are, you know, surrounding here, um, in Sugar Hills and you know, back to understanding how the Ojibwe people made their way through and across the lake and why things look the way they do is it's this connection piece that you don't, you don't really think about until you're actually in it. And so I, I will argue forever that the only way that groups are as and even families, you know, that come here for a leisure stay, like being together outside in a space that's really conducive to learning is, uh, it's second to none. And so being able to kind of work on and build on what we have in a natural element is critical for us and in respecting nature. Of course, that feels like a heavy and an important piece for us too.

Speaker E: Yeah. And it makes really good scientific sense because we're getting new data every year about the impacts of being outdoors time outdoors on educational capacity and retention. Um, so it makes complete sense, um, in all the various ways in which the outdoors serves as a good vehicle for this type of program. So you mentioned Covid and how that kind of kick started some of this work. What was the first version of this, what did this, the first version of this program look like when you start, when you started it out?

Speaker B: Um, it was, it was a little hodgepodged. Uh, to be honest. Um, we, we, we started calling a lot of what we did plug and play activities where, you know, we have this big ropes course outside that's teams focus. It's a Pecos style, uh, Posos river style course. So the only way you can get on it and play on it is with a team. So everybody has a role. And the I, at one point we had a group come up and this big burly guy, like 200 some pounds, climbs up this 30 foot pole and is about to jump for a trapeze. And it's snowing. It's like negative 10 degrees. It's like it's windy. I'm like, he's going to break this pole and he's going to be so mad. But, but at the end of it, he was like, this is the most insane experience I've ever had where like it can be really transformative or it can be really performative. And I think being able to like really prove that and saying like we designed this for this reason and to be outside and do it, that, that's where it, it really took off and it, it made the most sense. I mean we, we saw what we had and what we could do and what people were taking back with it, like the confidence and the, the trust in teams. Um, and so we started really pushing uh, the retreat aspect of you know, investing in your people is the best thing you can do as an organization. You can say you have a culture, but if you're not, you know, practicing what you preach, then they're not going to stick around. And we have consistently seen groups come back year after year because it's, it's very clear when they invest in them, they, they invest back. And that's kind of how it, it got rolling. So we do, you know, we started doing a lot of different open enrollment style retreats or you know, organization focused and working with really incredible facilitators um, that actually know what they're doing. So I think that's, that's a big differentiator too is having experts in their field be part of it.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker E: You mentioned the difference between a program that's transformative versus a program that's performative and your programming is largely experiential learning base. Um, what makes that different than a normal corporate training day which is largely, at least in my experience, performative? I mean I think I was reading your marketing on the website and you're talking about how trust falls are basically something that you would do that for, not for something that can turn you into a leader. Um, it's more, it's more a performative activity. So how does experiential learning, how does that make this program transformative?

Speaker B: The truly the difference, um, is the buy in of course, understanding what the outcomes actually are. I think a lot of organizations uh, will read a, you know, read an article and say oh yeah, we definitely need to be a high performing team. Great. What does that mean? Like break it down for me. So I, I think we get a little bit more ah, personal than a lot of other options. Um, and we're not, we're not packaging the same thing. There is no blueprint for me. If, if you asked to come here with your team, I'm not going to send you a, a PDF of exactly what we're going to do. I'm going to talk to you. We're going to find out what it is that you're struggling with or not or want to get better at and actually cater it to, to what you need, which seems so not that hard to do or like that would be an instinct. But you would be surprised with how many, uh, groups and organizations go into something just because somebody else told them that that's what they needed. And I, we're kind of going about it in a different way that you tell us if that's something that, you know, you need help with communication or you, you know, your processes aren't working, then let's design a program that actually facilitates that and brings out in real time what it looks like, um, to solve a problem together. I mean a lot of it is, is coming from those personal interactions that they don't really realize how they uh, react in certain situations or how they show up for their team. So the, the big difference for us at least is being highly involved and highly personalized in it, which I have seen. And just recently we had a group in last week that had an incredible couple of days and it was focusing exclusively on how they communicate. It just, it. A lot of it wasn't making sense. And to put them into different scenarios, it's like light bulbs, uh, you know, here and there. To be actually in a challenge that's seems really frustrating at the time. And then the reflection that comes afterward. How did this happen? What did you see? How did you present yourself? Were you your best self in this experience? Were you not? What, why did you yell at your co worker? Because they, you know, didn't pick up the right stick or whatever. Um, so that's where the, the transformative piece comes. There's. I. We're not standing in front of you saying, I'm the expert. You are like, you tell me what you want to, what you want to get out of this and how can we, you know, bring it to light and, and experience it together? Yeah.

Speaker E: So for, I think for a lot of listeners, um, they have probably experienced the team building, the forced team building and uh, professional development.

Speaker B: Icebreakers.

Speaker E: Icebreakers and exercises, uh, in the corporate setting. In a corporate setting. So can you kind of walk me through what uh, someone experiences that the leadership lodge from start to finish so that folks that are listening can kind of differentiate from what they've experienced in the past?

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Um, something that somebody asked me recently was, you know, there's a group that's interested in coming that has never done a retreat of any kind. So to get your, your staff to buy in. And it's a smaller, you know, a smaller group of 20 to 25 people. And I think the biggest concern for them is trying to understand when you get people together, you know, is it this real baseline, uh, conversation, like what are you good at? What do you enjoy at work, what, you know, what makes you happy, what makes you not? And I, the way that we do it is from a, from the very beginning is this intense conversation, 30 minutes of tell me what's going on. What are, what are the perspectives of your staff? Who's new, who's old, uh, who has a chip on their shoulder, what are the struggles that you're dealing with? And I think jumping into it, you know, if, if you're coming up here and you arrive at 4pm you have time to kind of like gather together and be in a new space. It's, it's always uncomfortable. But then heading into uh, a facilitated session in the evening, which is typically how we'll do it, gives uh, everybody this, this contract, right, that we're here for three days. This is what we're going to get out of it. This is where we're going to commit to and you're, you're doing it all together. And if there's people that aren't quite bought in, this is the opportunity for them to be like, I'm not sure why I'm here. Like, I think I'm great at my job, right? Like, I don't need trust falls. And for us to say, you know, that's great, why don't you need that? What are you good at? What are you lacking on like, it, it's almost like this push into vulnerability, um, in a, in a safe space. And I think people in new environments are a little bit more, uh, willing to share and to be um, interactive, um, and also you know, setting it up so you have time to be together. We, we talk a lot about that. The value of the in between. Where, you know, when you go to a conference and you're like, I'm so done sitting through this 45 minute speech of this guy that makes more money than me and does infinitely, has more awards than I'll ever get, right? And you're like, you're feeling like you're not good enough. Um, and then in the in between, you're walking to a session or you're walking to a workshop and you're talking with someone just about, you know, a topic that came up that's like the most Valuable thing you're going to take away from that day is that interaction. So we've like highlighted and pinpointed that, like where, what does that feeling come from? And it's uh, giving them the environment to talk about what is frustrating, what process isn't working. Um, we can simulate, you know, different challenges that look into why your communication isn't working across, you know, siloed, uh, organizations or multi office organizations. And if everyone's not aligned on a value standpoint, then we bring it back around and say, what does that look like? So this. I got off on a tangent kind of. I think I'm answering your question, but

Speaker E: yeah, you're answering the conceptual, the theoretical side of it. I think. Um, one thing I'm looking for.

Speaker B: If you want more specifics, let's get into specific. Here's an agenda.

Speaker E: When someone shows up, do they automatically go up pole and jump off into a trap trampoline?

Speaker B: Like, like the 200 pound climb the pole?

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker B: End of session? No, it's definitely an ease into the process. Like I said, the bonfire is a huge piece of what we do. Right. It's the original uh, social network. Right. You get around, you tell stories and you're all together. Um, so kicking it off is, is very much an easy situation. You have dinner, we have a quick session to articulate what the outcomes are. Everything is outside, weather pending. Of course, if it's winter, I'll probably make you put a, a jacket on. Right. If you're lucky, um, and straight into a bonfire where, you know, drinks, of course, snacks, all that kind of thing. But the ability to, to get comfortable in that situation and with your coworkers is critical. There's no, there's no great way to jump into a retreat, uh, without having time together and to be really clear about what it is that you're there for. So that's definitely step number one.

Speaker E: Cool. Um, so for, I think the, the outdoors has been used for decades, years, um, centuries for creating leaders. Whether it's um, whether it's through casual experience or through programs like the, like Knowles or outward, outward boundaries. How would Leadership Lodge fall into that family of programming that uses outdoors as to create new leaders? Is it kind of a, is it a, is it Glamping's version of Outward Bound?

Speaker B: Yeah, we're like, yeah, we're like the, the almost outdoorsy, but still, uh, a little bit, a little bit more comfortable. Yeah, um, yeah, we're not camping for sure. But uh, you know, I, I have had so much great interaction with Knowles and Outward Bound and to bring in the same type of theory, you know, of experiential education. The. The what? So what now what is. That's the whole paradigm that we kind of base programming on. And when you're outside in really adventure specific um, experiences like with Outward Bound, um, you're forced into decision making and really trusting yourself. And I, I think we take that to a degree where we're, we're presenting psychologically safe environments, but also with that element of uh, you know, a bit of fear in the, the elements outside from know we, we bring in sled dogs and really understand what it looks like to work as a team. There's like no better metaphor for team building and teamwork than sled dogs. Like hands down, they are incredible. Um, but to put somebody on the sled and say you're going to actually instruct uh, these dogs to take you around a course that we've designed, it's a, it's, that's a bit of a scary feeling. You know, you're, you're kind of being presented with this challenge that you're not familiar with. Um, and you're outside and it's, you know, it's a new space. But we're also, you can come back inside and warm up by the fireplace with a hot chocolate with Bailey's in it afterwards. So, um, it's a, it's a healthy uh, balance with that kind of stuff. But I, I so see the value and I live it. I mean everything we do, um, we focus on outside is, is the priority. The property is where all of the magic happens. Um, so many good conversations inside. But you know, being on the lake in, when it's incredibly windy and trying to navigate your way to you know, a, ah, surprise or mystery area, um, is, it's uncomfortable, it's a discomfort that you're kind of leaning into and um, learning to trust yourself and others.

Speaker E: Yeah. Um, I had the privilege of going to Outward Bound when I was 15 and I think it was probably the most impactful leadership related experience I've ever had. It's.

Speaker B: Yeah, I totally agree.

Speaker E: And it's really exciting to see that same kind of, uh, philosophy and learning style being transferred into a large setting like. Yeah, like Sugar Lake. Um, so that's really exciting to see.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, I love that.

Speaker E: Yeah, you mentioned the elements. You mentioned the elements. So the elements of northern Minnesota we all know are unpredictable. Um, to say, to say the least. Uh, why is that? Unpredictability for your programming a feature, not a bug for building These future leaders.

Speaker B: I prefer it. Someone asked the other day how I feel about bad weather, and I'm thinking, I love it. It's so good. It's so challenging. Um, and also it's this giant metaphor for. There is, there is always an answer. There's always an answer to something regardless of how you get to it and how you, you react to it. There's a, I don't know where I read this. Maybe it was a TikTok, to be honest, um, a, ah, saying of. You can tell a lot about a person by how they react to lost luggage. And I think about that all the time. When we put people into certain challenges or, you know, we, we create these experiences for them to, you know, build a bridge out of very minimal, uh, materials and things that are collapsible and you know, all, you know, if it's cardboard, it's not going to go well in the middle of winter. But, um, with it raining and snowing and, you know, you have to do this regardless of what's in front of you. And you know, the only thing that matters is how you react to it. It's reacting versus responding. And, uh, to be able to watch people experience that and kind of come to, to knowing in the reflection piece and saying, I was so out of my element trying to do any sort of engineering and I think I could have done better here. I could have, you know, I, you know, it would have been nice to be able to Google something. But to have people outside and actually think on their feet, um, with other people in mind. This, like, empathetic, uh, instinct just, it just comes out. And especially when the weather's bad because you're like, oh my God, we got to jump in the lake and then we got to get out of here. So like, what are we going to do and how are we going to do it efficiently? So it's, yeah, it's so. It's so conducive to have, um, the elements just, you know, at will because we, we can't control it. We can't control a lot of what goes on in society right in what's going on with our, our country and to be able to push through and, and actually be, uh, a successful, you know, version of ourselves and our organizations totally relies on your, your personal ability to, to overcome and respond.

Speaker E: So, yeah, I can imagine that the, the shared trauma, and that's trauma with a small T, um, that comes from dealing with unpredictable weather can have a significant impact on teams and how close they are one another. I mean, I just, I remember experiencing that when I went off to summer camp. Um, whenever, I mean, after you get there and you don't really know these folks, and then you spend a week in the elements and then your best friends after five days. And so.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker E: Imagine that's a big factor here.

Speaker B: Right? You paddled a canoe in cold weather and it was pouring rain. I mean, you're never going to be more connected with the people in your group than you are at that point especially. I love the summer camp thing. I used, I was a counselor for years, and I still, uh, am part of the camp that's close by. And I think that was, I think that's why I loved experiential education so much, was to watch even younger adults and young kids, like, rise to the occasion in those situations and then go home. And that was their best memory of, like, the worst trip they ever had. They're full of bug bites, um, someone broke a knee, whatever. Like, they get back and they're like, this is the best, the best boundary water strip I've ever been on.

Speaker E: Yeah, Yeah. I, I, I take my, my eldest. He, um, we send him to YMCA camp in Wisconsin every year that he loves going to Camp Acogwan. And, um, the first year we sent him there, we were worried about him, um, because I remember my experiences at sleepover camps. Um, and we assumed that he would be just overjoyed to see us when we showed up on that Sunday when we got there. I hope he doesn't listen because you get embarrassed. Um, but he was crying when we got there. We were like, oh, he missed us so much. Um, and then when he got in the car, we asked him, um, and he was like, no, I'm crying because I don't want to leave.

Speaker B: Yeah, why'd you come get me? Like, leave me here?

Speaker E: Exactly.

Speaker B: And I was like, oh, well, we missed you.

Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh, wow. Okay.

Speaker B: Um, okay.

Speaker E: The kids are going to be okay. I think so. Yeah. That's, uh, pretty amazing.

Speaker B: I love that.

Speaker E: So when are you, when you have a team that's been up there for like a week or, uh, a long weekend, or however long they've been when they drive home on, say, a Sunday. What is, what do you hope is measure measurably different about how they show up to work to their office on Monday?

Speaker B: Well, uh, that's the million dollar question of. We just went through all of these scenarios. We had a great conversation. You have all your takeaways now what? Like, what is that even? How are you actually going to implement that stuff? And I, you know, from the times that we've had follow up conversations, I, the number one thing that, that I hear that is the most valuable is actually coming back to the experiences they had together. So with meetings, are they bringing up, you know, remember when we did this? Or remember when you said this while we were, you know, building a new golf course within the lodge, like, what did that look like? That's exactly how this project is, is feeling. And so I think a lot of it comes back to being able to tie back to those, those really important feelings that you had when you were here. And um, from a, you know, the drive back is I think the most critical to like, continue that conversation of like, what did you actually experience? So a lot of times I'll send them with questions which, who knows if they actually, when I, when I follow up with them later. And one of the facilitators that we have, he, you know, he'll give him a call and say, so did you get through all the questions? And they're like, no. But you know, a week later we were in a meeting and somebody said, you know, this just brings so much joy to our organization. And then it starts the conversation of what that joy felt like when they made fire out of flint and steel or whatever. Um, so being able to tie back those memories and kind of push them a little bit to, to bring it back to what it felt like to actually be like, so cohesive, um, and you know, really just giving them the tools to actually implement what they've learned. Um, is it a new way to do meetings? Is it, you know, connecting when you need to, uh, at lunch or whatever. It's, it's hard to go back to the city after being in a space like this and saying get outside as much as you can because they're like, yeah, I'm going to go to the food truck down the road. But um, yeah, it's, it's a lot of uh, you know, accountability and you know, who's the one person that's actually going to like, keep this stuff going. So yeah, being able to like, just encourage them and give them, you know, actual things to utilize and do is, is, I mean that's a huge part of it, the biggest part of it, probably.

Speaker E: Yeah, I think, um, for groups that are coming up, particularly for groups coming up from the metro, the Twin Cities metro area, um, we're luck, I mean we're incredibly lucky to have, um, some of the, some of the highest rates of outdoor recreational access in the nation with regards to a large city. Um, we rank, I think this year Trust Republicans annual score. We ranked Minneapolis ranked third and St. Paul ranked fourth, which is crazy. And so I'm sure there's opportunities for a program like yourself, particularly working with groups that are coming back into the cities to maybe collaborate with local Twin Cities outfitters or um, places like the lopet foundation to provide these folks with um, opportunity that they can continue to explore um, their experiences in nature uh, with when they come back into the city.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker E: Um, so with the time we have left, I'd love to hear a little bit about what the future holds for Leadership Lodge. Um, so where's the program headed next? What are you building towards?

Speaker B: Yeah, so we're really starting to uh, kind of segment what we offer into uh, very specific outcomes based retreats. So um, we have a variety of facilitators that we uh, have connected with and work with that bring in a lot of their own clients, um, strictly based on what they need and what they see is really important. We partner with a group called the Prouty Project out of Eden Prairie, um, who are arguably one of the best organizations you can utilize for strategic planning, um, team development and you know they put on various cohorts uh, that we sponsor and partner with. Um, one of them is called L3. So it's a leading self, leading others, leading the business, um, three part cohort that we do up here, August, October and January. And um, the, the number, the people that have come through and experienced that have seen firsthand that like open enrollment, you know, and jumping into experiences like that with strangers can be really jarring. Um, but what Prouty does really well is utilize the outdoor spaces that we have and make it really palatable um, in terms of building new leaders. So those are the types of cohorts and programs that we're putting into place that you know, are building new leaders. Gen Z is hungry for these experiences and not just you know, the conference style. Sit down, talk to me, tell me what I need to know. Um, they want to know that it's, it's an investment, that they are uh, really valued and that their values are, are integrated into what they're doing. I, I was again this is probably a TikTok, but I, I read that um, Gen Z on average is changing positions and jobs up to four times within three years. So you know, the, the need for um, not just you know, acceleration in their career but a lot of them you know, responded in this poll that they're not feeling valued, but in terms of what it is that they like, they enjoy, what they're good at, um, or what they could be really good at. And so I, I see this need for bridging that gap and really exploring what it is that we think that the next generation of leaders is going to need. And I think a lot of it is a humanity focused um, development program. And so for us to offer uh, very custom retreat options, uh, to organizations that are dealing with high turnover, not um, a lot of process into, you know, what onboarding looks like because it changes and it's needed and it needs an overhaul. Um, I think a lot of the training programs are really outdated and antiquated and to be able to bring like real life scenarios into things is critical. So to me the future is this involvement in what humane leadership looks like. And I think that starts with people being together and uh, in spaces that are, are like ours, that are distraction free. Distraction free. You know we have wi Fi, but like being able to be uh, fully invested and, and involved in something is just, it's a, it's a unique thing that we don't, we, we kind of got away from and I think that's something that I want to bring back and we have started to bring back that's been really powerful and, and valuable. So you know, cohort style, retreat style, a lot of exclusive use of you know, the property. Um, groups have bought us out and taken over the property and said please don't let anybody else in here because we want to. Like we really need to get stuff done. We're like say less. Let's go. Bring it. It's all yours. Here are the keys, like by all means. Um, I think that's a really cool uh, trend that's happening. It's, it's, it's happening. They see the value of it and to be able to do it here and to do it well with, with a lot of value is that's priority number one for us.

Speaker E: That's fantastic. I love.

Speaker B: And the nature, did I mention the outdoors? Because that's the huge piece of it.

Speaker E: Yeah, yeah, the nature for sure. I love the um, I mean I love the talk of trends and I think the trends are definitely going in the right direction with regards to a desire by particularly the younger or the Gen Z's like you mentioned were on Tick Tock to put away their, their digital world and get into the physical explore uh, world and be in these third spaces with their communities, uh, which this sounds like it provides opportunities for which I think that's what folks are searching out these days.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker E: So I think, um, it's, it's a fantastic opportunity for folks. So with that, I think, um, I think we're good. I, I, I really appreciate your time today to share all of this. Right. Well, thanks again.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: I really want to thank Abby for joining us. That conversation is going to stick with me for a while. I mean, leadership development and outdoor activities. That's awesome.

Speaker C: I know. And it's so different than anything I've ever experienced as a leader before. And what really stood out to me was her distinction between performative and transformative. Right. So the trust falls are performative, but once you do them, you're moving on. And here she's building a program that is designed to surface how people actually behave under real pressure, like crazy weather or crazy experiences at work. And then she gives them space to reflect on it afterwards.

Speaker A: Right. Which brings us back to that guy on the trapeze pole in the snow.

Speaker C: Yep, exactly. And the sled dogs, she called that the best metaphor for teamwork she's ever worked with, hands down. Plus, you know, as somebody who loves dogs, Sarah, when we go to the pheasant hunting opener, I can't think of better experiences. If, uh, they don't have dogs, then I don't know if I'd be interested. So I'm glad that they're here.

Speaker A: Right. And they don't call sled dogs, sled dog teams for nothing. Right. I also really loved her point about the elements. Minnesota weather is so unpredictable, as we've talked about on the show before, no matter what time of year. And instead of fighting that, she's built an entire philosophy around it. How you respond to a canoe trip in the pouring rain says more about you than a whole day of conference sessions ever could. And I can tell you from experience canoeing in the pouring rain, that is very true.

Speaker C: Right. It's not the same as sitting in a too cold conference room. So I'm glad that this experience exists and it's really a good reminder for all of us, honestly, not just the teams that head to Sugar Lake, but to everybody to get outside, get uncomfortable, and see what shows up, see what type of person kind of comes out, and how you can assess your leadership skills in that moment.

Speaker A: So if this conversation has sparked your interest and you want to learn more about leadership, lodge or plan your own trip up to Sugar Lake, we'll have links in the show notes.

Speaker C: And of course, thank you everyone for listening to Explore Minnesota more. If you like the show. Be sure to subscribe and leave a review. And of course we'll chat with you next time.

Speaker B: Mhm.