1K Miles, gummy clusters, and a pair of Gnomes: Kari Gibbons, Wild Winter Women, and Minnesota's Ultra Spirit

Speaker A: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Explore Minnesota More. I'm Lauren Benne McGinty, executive director of Explore Minnesota.

Speaker B: And I'm Sarah Stroman, commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources. Lauren, I have to tell you, I have been looking forward to this episode, um, for quite a while.

Speaker A: Yes, me too. All right, so today's guest is Carrie Gibbons. She is a north Minneapolis artist, a winter ultra athlete. We'll get into that in a little bit. And the founder of a community called Wild Winter Women. And the headline, if you need or want a headline, is that she literally just walked 1,000 miles across Alaska on foot. And in the winter.

Speaker B: That's a thousand miles on foot in winter. I think we should all just sit with that one for a second.

Speaker A: I know, it's very intimidating, right? It's called the Iditarod trail invitational, the ITI 1000. And it's the same trail that all of those dog sled races run, but this one is done by a human. And it starts outside Anchorage, Alaska, through the Alaskan interior and across the Yukon river, ending at, ah, Nome on the coast. Okay, so that is about 100 people in the world who are even invited to literally tow that line each year.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, even to qualify, you have to finish the, uh, 350 mile version twice. Carrie did that in 2020 and 2021. And yes, the 2021, you guessed it, ended with her getting on a plane home as the world was shutting down for Covid. So we'll get into that too.

Speaker A: Right. And I can't imagine doing 350 miles as a qualifier, much less 1,000. So it's kind of amazing that she did that at all and much less twice. Plus how she's going to train for this or how she did train for it. And it's almost entirely at Theodore Wirth park in Minneapolis, which we love, of course, on the same trails that a lot of our listeners are running, biking, cross country skiing. That's where she trained for Thousand mile race in Alaska.

Speaker B: Yeah, that training piece really stuck with me, because to train for this incredible elite Alaskan experience right here in a place that is so familiar to those of us who live in the Twin Cities metro area is amazing. And the other thing that I think is really striking is that so much of what makes Minnesotans good at endurance is just our seasons. We grow up in it. And Carrie talks about how she fell in love with winter through the boundary waters as a kid and how that turned into trail running and then ultras and then this amazing Alaskan experience.

Speaker A: Carrie started this almost by accident with six women at a dinner table after a race in Wisconsin. And now it's really grown into a community of more than 500 women supporting each other into a sport that historically really hasn't had a lot of women involved. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I'm really glad she talked about what she calls the job interview barrier. And, um, Lauren, I know this is something that we're all too familiar with. It's the idea that women often won't sign up for something unless they feel 100% qualified. And Carrie's really working to try to change that, including by hosting a free weekend at her house every year called Wild Winter Women University.

Speaker A: Right. It's just at her house, she invites people over, feeds them cookies and her mom bakes and they sleep outside. I mean, it's so great. It's just a fantastic community experience.

Speaker B: It's all that. And honestly, it's so Minnesotan. It's, it's very Minnesota cliche. Like it almost hurts.

Speaker A: I know, it really is. Uh, and I love that about it, honestly. But whether you're someone who already loves winter or someone who runs from it every year, we think that you're going to find something in this conversation. And Carrie really has a way of talking about the cold and discomfort and fear and then reframes all of it and makes you feel excited about it and kind of gets into your senses so that you can see the joy in it as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. So let's get to it. Here's our conversation with Wild Winter woman, Carrie Gibbons.

Speaker C: Come explore Minnesota. It's a hoot. And don't you know about the marvelous Minnesotan Tour? Creating and promoting different spaces and adventures to explore our great outdoors. And since you're here, you'll hear the reasons to enjoy all of our season. Since the North Star State's 10,000 lakes and all space in between is the perfect place to venture with your friends and family.

Speaker D: My name is Kari Gibbons and, and I live in Minneapolis. Lived in north Minneapolis for over a decade. Um, an artist and a, uh, winter ultra athlete. And I am a proud dog mom of two Pekingese puppies.

Speaker E: Did I read that you kind of came to maybe racing and endurance sports in general in your 30s? Um, or a little bit later enough?

Speaker D: Yeah, a little bit later. I ran my first marathon when I was 30 years old.

Speaker E: Okay.

Speaker D: I didn't really do anything distance wise until then.

Speaker E: What made you decide to do it then?

Speaker D: Well, I had, we had been going up to the boundary waters my, like, throughout my whole Childhood, and I always was very aware that I. And I just felt more at peace there. And I figured out by the time I was 30, because that's how many years it took, um, that it was because I was a little tired, you know, and then I started running. You know, I ran a mile and a two and two miles and three miles. And then I don't think I knew really, or understood what the marathon was until then. And I thought, uh, I should do that, you know, and so it just kind of turned me into a happy. A happy Kari. Just tired a little bit. And I enjoyed going for a long time and. And then I kind of got bored with that after a few years. And that's when I discovered trail running, which is more adventurous, more, um, remote. And that is really what I fell in love with.

Speaker E: Yeah. What is it about trail running that you. Is it that adventurousness and that remoteness that really set it apart from the road? Road running? Yes, that kind of thing. Yeah.

Speaker D: You just. I mean, the training in itself is just more fun. Um, running on single. Like we have Theodore Worth park here in Minneapolis. It's just so awesome for running. So the training's more fun, um, and then it's a little bit more independent. They have less support, typically, than a. Than a road marathon. So. And you just. We kind of get to explore with our feet a little bit more slowly.

Speaker E: Yeah, that's a. That's a pretty good endorsement for Theodore Wharf that you could spend your time training on their single track and then go on to do a, uh, 1000 mile foot race in Alaska, so.

Speaker D: Oh, Yeah, I did 99% of my training in Theodore Worth in one form or another. It's perfection.

Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah. Were you having to dodge, uh, mountain bikers, or did you outpace the mountain bikers?

Speaker D: And I've ridden on the single track trails, but I actually run faster than I do ride. Um, and I've heard kind of horror stories about other single track trails where pedestrians and cyclists meet. And I've never had a bad, um, a bad experience in Theo Worth. And I, like I said I run there a lot, so, um, they're just very fast. You have to listen for them because those fancy bikes are very quiet.

Speaker E: Yeah, they are. Yeah, definitely. They'll. They'll pop up behind you and you won't even know it.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker E: So, um, what was your. What was your first experience in doing actual winter ultras, like, or, um, to be more specific, what goes through your mind at the start line of something like the arrowhead 135 or the iti 1000.

Speaker A: What?

Speaker E: Can you explain that to someone who's never even considered experience in something like that?

Speaker D: Yeah, the, the first time I ever heard about the Arrowhead, um, I hadn't even run. Ran a 100 mile like trail race before. This is before even before I had done an Ultra and I read about the Arrowhead and I heard. I kept seeing these buzzwords of like remote and secluded and unsupported mostly. And I thought, oh yeah, I, that sounds just up my alley and just something that I would really like. And that is specifically this year at Arrowhead when it was a very cold year, um, for us, for Arrowhead, not for Alaska. Um, but I was thinking I get to spend the next three days doing my favorite thing, the thing that makes me feel the best. I'm kind of good at it. At least staying alive, the staying alive part. Um, I just felt so privileged to be able to just spend like days on the trail just doing my favorite thing.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker E: Well, I'm really glad you're good at the staying alive part.

Speaker D: Yes, thank you.

Speaker E: This would be a short podcast. It's funny because the last two, last, uh, two podcasts I've had, um, the Arrowhead has come up in both. Uh, Airhead 135s come up in both. Yeah. The last podcast I did was on the history of Fat Tire biking in Minnesota.

Speaker D: Wow.

Speaker E: Um, and we're talking to Steven, Reginald, Stephen, um, founded Gear Junkie. And he, uh, he actually tested out the first Fat Tire, um, Surly fat tire on arrowhead 135 back a number of years ago and it was nearly 60 pounds. I think the bike was 60 pounds. Um, and he said it was, um, quite difficult. Suffice to say nowadays they're not 60 pounds anymore. They're a lot.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker E: Lighter. Um, but, but isn't Therehead. You can do it in different, you can do it different ways. You can walk, run, ride. Um, is that what makes it. That's what makes it unique, right?

Speaker D: Yeah. I mean, so it's a human powered race, just like Iditarod or iti, um, that you can either walk it or run if you are very motivated. But most people walk.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker D: Um, ski, bike and you'll have these. It's the same race but totally different experiences on all fronts. I mean the least amount of people are skiing it because it's really condition dependent. Um, and then you have this large contingent of foot people and then the bikers. And the bikers are gone. Like they start by the Time the foot people are finishing, they're back in Minneapolis, showered, they've slept. Like on a good year, you know, they might be pushing their bikes around if it's particularly gnarly. But um, but it is just wild. Um, and the, the bikers will stay up maybe one night. And if you're on foot, you're going two nights out there easy. So it's pretty wild skiers too.

Speaker E: Yeah, I can imagine. Um, so a lot of folks, a lot of folks in Minnesota have probably heard of the arrowhead 135 because it's Minnesota race. Um, but I can imagine there's a lot of folks out there who don't know what the ITI 1000 is. Can you kind of walk us through what the iti1000 actually is for the people who may have never heard of it before?

Speaker D: Yeah. And I think I had been doing winter ultras for a couple years before I even heard about iti and um, for us it's our Super Bowl. You know, it's the biggest, longest winter race on the planet. I'm pretty sure it is for sure for foot and ski. Um, and it was inspired by, and takes place just before the Iditarod dog sled race that starts just outside of Anchorage, um, in Willow. And it will go over Rainy Pass, through the Farewell Burn, through the Alaskan interior and the Yukon river and will finish on the coast in nome, roughly um, 1,000 miles later. So our human powered, you know, race starts maybe a week before the dog. So we'll be on the trail and then eventually they'll catch us. So that's always an exciting, um, exciting time on the trail. But it is a small race, um, only 100 and I think 100 people can actually toe the line there. Um, and we have minimal, minimal support. Um, there's some roadhouses and a tent I think once in the 350 and then really after the 300 mile mark, you're on your own until known. So.

Speaker E: Mhm. Is there when you, when you do that race, particularly before or even after, is there, is there a little Minnesota community contingency that gets together? Because I know you're Minnesotan and, and um, I'm not sure if other Minnesotans do the foot, but I know that there are others that maybe do the Iditarod. The dog set are there, is there kind of a little group of Minnesotans that get together?

Speaker D: There is, there is. So for the ITI there, it's an invitational, um, um, so you have to apply for it and you also have to hit these markers of experience. Right. And some races qualify. Three of the qualifying races are in the Midwest, so one to Scobea in Wisconsin, the Arrowhead 135 in International Falls. And what I consider the Midwest is Winnipeg. So there's active EPICA in Winnipeg. They're part of our family.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker D: Um, so we usually have a, ah, nice group of Midwesterners coming. Uh, and someone had, an Alaskan had once asked me, like, well, there seems to be like always a lot of you Minnesotans here. Like, yeah, we, we like it, but we just have access to so many qualifying races. And the community itself is growing for sure.

Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah. Now, how many, how many iterations have you done of it on the race

Speaker D: of the. I did or not.

Speaker E: Yeah. Of the iti. How many times?

Speaker D: So I've done the 352 times.

Speaker E: Okay.

Speaker D: Um, in 2020 and 2021. So that's March of 2020, by the way. So.

Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah, that was an interesting time.

Speaker D: Yeah. I started the race and everything's normal and I finished in McGrath nine days later. And they said, you need to get on a plane and get home. Now they are running out of toilet paper.

Speaker E: Like, oh my God.

Speaker D: So it was so weird. And. But you do have to finish the 352 times in order to apply for the thousand. So which, you know, my two, my 2020 and my 2021 races were so different. Um, it's a really good experience. So I'm happy that they have that rule.

Speaker E: Yeah, Yeah. I, I can't imagine how doing that in March of 2020 must have been so just crazy just to get back to society, uh, that you, I mean, you do all you do, you do this amazing thing and then you expect to come back to the society. You expect to come back to normal, but you weren't coming back to normal during that time.

Speaker D: So, yeah, I felt like I was playing catch up on, like, okay, what happened now? What's, what are we doing?

Speaker E: Yeah. Because I can't imagine that you have any, uh, I mean, what kind of contact do you have with the outside world when you're doing a race like that? Do you have a gps, uh, that folks can follow you or is there any other, any type of contact that you have with the outside world, uh,

Speaker D: doing those races for the spectator? Um, they have, everybody carries a, A, ah, gps. And then we'll have a track leader's, um, website that tracks all the little dots on their races, which is maybe some people don't think it's fun. It's highly entertaining for me to kind of watch what's going on the trail and trying to figure out what the conditions are like based on how fast people are going. Um, so there's that. Um. This year, for the first time ever, I had, uh, like a satellite, like an inreach mini that I could communicate with people. But, um, that was for safety. I actually ended up liking it a lot. But in 20, 20 and 21, I really go out there and I'm like, leave me alone, you guys. I will be back in a week. Like, I don't wanna. I don't wanna hear about anything that's going on in the. In the world. So m. So yeah, it wasn't. It was a new thing for me this last year and. Or in 25. Um, but I liked it.

Speaker E: Yeah. Um. What is. What is your favorite part of a race? Like that or.

Speaker D: Yeah, the. It's really hard to kind of pull it all together. Um, the days, the long days and the simplicity of it. And there are no rules, you know, um, and not rules. Like there are race rules, but no rules. For me as a human being walking around those trails that. So I feel my most free when I'm out there. Um, there's just. It's just that is what that is. The addicting. Maybe that's not the right word, but that's my favorite part about it. And you have to walk for a week to get there. So it's not something that's like a fast, you know, quick hit or anything like that. It's like to see these places that are inaccessible in the summertime. So this Iditarod, um, trail that the dogs have run, they're also. It's a connecting trail between villages, um, that's thousands of years old between some of these villages. And um. And they only exist in. They only exist in the wintertime when the swamps and rivers or lakes have frozen. Uh, so it's extremely special to be out there seeing these places, um, when nobody goes there in the summertime. I mean I all. And I wouldn't. Because that's when all the bears are awake stuff. Everybody's asleep in the winter, so that's nice too.

Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. When the bears are awake.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker E: Totally different story.

Speaker D: Yeah. And the, uh, mosquitoes.

Speaker E: Oh gosh. They carry you, Carry you away.

Speaker D: You can stay on the trail.

Speaker E: Um, that's the only. Probably one of the only states that have bigger sk. Mosquitoes than ours.

Speaker D: Seriously.

Speaker E: So, um, so what is, uh, the free. The freedom of it and that. That's kind of one of the best aspects of a race like that. What are, what are some of the most difficult aspects of a race like that?

Speaker D: Uh, to you personally, that's a good question. Um, it's harder to answer and think about the more space there is between me and where I am now in the race. Um, an unexpected thing that happened this year, um, that I've never experienced before was I really missed my dogs and I really miss my boyfriend.

Speaker E: Okay.

Speaker D: Like. Like I was in the interior in Alaska and I at this time too is when I also ran out of candy. So I think there are two things happening right now.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker D: Um, so. But I just remember just weeping, you know, thinking like my little dogs are gonna be dead when I. Or they're not gonna remember me. And, and I miss my boyfriend. And um, and I just. I had a very sad day or so, um, or moments of, you know, that. But then like three days later I was totally fine. I was like, oh, no, we're good. Like, yeah, so could have been candy related. But yeah. Um, but yeah, that was, I think that was the. I had a really good. I had a really good year, you know, with conditions. So, um, but it's still physically difficult. Um, the other thing that is hard, um, to deal with later is like I'm walking all day and every day and eating constantly because there's no way that I can eat enough that would fill the hole. Right. The calorie, calorie deficit all the time. And so I'm just dropping weight and when I finish, you know, I've lost maybe 15 or 20 pounds. Um, and I just look like, like I got a worm, you know, like it's not a healthy looking thing and I. To lose that much weight that quick is. It's. I hate it. It's my work. It's the part about these races that I don't like.

Speaker E: Yeah, yeah, that's, um, gotta be. I mean it's. It sounds like, I mean all the endurance races, but I'm a, I'm particularly a fan of things like the Tour de France and stuff like that. And they are constantly having to take in calories because you got inside equation that you have calories in calories out m. You gotta maintain that. Um, and so I imagine you have to plan significantly ahead of time of um, exactly what you need for a trip like that.

Speaker D: Yes. And the planning is actually one of my favorite parts of it. But we do hit these remote villages, um, along the route for the thousand and we can mail ourselves food boxes there's no checkpoints after the 300 mile mark, so nobody's going to be giving us food. We need to mail all of our food that we think we are going to need, um, to these remote schools. So there's a. How many days is it going to take me to get there? How many calories am I burning? Um, and then you just pile a box filled with hand warmers and toilet paper and candy and meals and, um, and it's always. And I always like to pack, like, little special treats in there, too, and I forget about them. So I'm like, who. What's going to be in this one? You know, cookies. Uh, so, uh. But the eating is nice. The eating part is fun. I do enjoy just stuffing my face constantly. I do it no matter what, whether I'm walking 18 to 20, 40 miles a day or whatever or not. So, um. But yeah, there's a lot of prep that goes into this. Um, I was buying food for a year before. Ah, the race. Yeah.

Speaker E: So.

Speaker D: And I calculated it to be about 4,000 calories a day, even though I don't think I could eat anymore. If I was burning anymore, I couldn't eat any more than that because you just get sick. So

Speaker E: what is your. When you're on the trail, what's your favorite candy?

Speaker D: I got really into Nerds Clusters.

Speaker E: Yeah, That's a big. That's a good one. They. It is.

Speaker D: And it's like a little bit. It's like 25% of my personality right now is like, I like Nerds Clusters. Um, the other one I found out, which was a surprise because I don't like them in real life. Uh, Peeps, you know, like, they're 150 calories, which is amazing for one mouthful, but also they're soft when they're frozen. And after you've been spending days and days eating frozen hard energy bars and everything's just raw, ragged, you know, just eat like a squishy marshmallow. Really did something for my soul. So I'm a Peeps person now.

Speaker E: Gotcha. So. So not like a Minnesota brand like Pearson's. Like, you don't. You don't bust out a salted nut roll or a nut goodie when you're free.

Speaker D: Yeah. I really. I wish those would work.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker D: But they're. Because they're perfect. They're perfect. You know, they've got fat, sugar, carbs, some protein.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker D: But they freeze too hard.

Speaker E: Oh, okay. That's the problem. Yeah. I guess you could use them in the summertime.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker E: Better.

Speaker D: They're good for training.

Speaker E: Yeah, good training. Training, food. Um, for sure. So, nerds climbing clusters. Those are pretty epic. They're. They're very popular in our household. I've got a teenage boy that loves his nerd gummy clusters. Um, and it's fun to see because as a Gen Xer myself, I remember nerds. Um, and then nerds kind of died out, um, until they combine them with something gummy. And now they're back. Yeah.

Speaker D: And I've been trying to make up for all those last years when they went, you know, underground. Right.

Speaker E: Underground nerds. It was hard to find them. It was kind of like. Yeah, you know, the old school candy that you can barely. Barely find, Hardly find anywhere.

Speaker D: Uh, yep.

Speaker E: Yeah, but you can find them everywhere now. Um, so I think of. I've read where, um, you said when you. When you were done with the ITI 1000, you said that you weren't ready for it to be. To be over. Um, tell me a little bit more about that, because I think I feel like most people wanted to be done and ready to get home, but you. You felt kind of the opposite. What was that like?

Speaker D: Yeah, honestly, I had. I had the best experience out there. I mean, it is something that I don't know if I'll ever be able to have again. But, um, my race strategy, which is usually very big, starts out with a very big, detailed plan, and it just kind of like fizzles out to nothing on day one. Um, but one thing that I said I wanted to do was to never get to a checkpoint or the end of my day trashed. I always wanted to just be happy, fed, hydrated, warm, dry, and just be ready to be done with my day. And if I did that enough, then that's how I would get to know him. M. And, um, it did. And it did. Like, and that means, like, all day, I'm caring for myself, right? Like, I'm taking care of my feet and taking care of my, know, eating all the clusters and everything. Um, but. But there was also this, you know, this feeling of, um, like, what you look like, what you expect a human being to look like after, you know, walking a thousand miles. And we imagine including myself, like, scraping, you know, your way to the. It was this epic, long thing. And I always felt powerful, strong, happy when I was out there. Fed, for the most part, it was beautiful. I was experiencing something that I had dreamed of doing for years and had trained enough, I guess, to. To make it so that it was that I could enjoy my Time out there, and I truly did not want it to be done. And the last cabin that, that we stopped in, I had kind of switched base layers. I took my shirt off and I could see these like, veins popping out of my arms. Like, oh, that's never seen. I've never seen that before. So I, uh, I obviously couldn't have kept going forever. And you know, the trail ends in Gnome and then all the trail behind us disappears as we go through it, as we go past. Um, but I did walk the last few weeks with a now friend, Peter, um, from Chicago. And the last few days I was like, oh, I don't want to be done. Kind of bummed about it. And he was like, you're ready to be done now though, right? As we can see, Noam, I think he was worried that I would turn around and start walking back. But yeah, I didn't. I, um, wasn't done. Which was, um, an amazing. I'm kind of still shocked a little bit about it, but I could have just gone into Nome and slept a little bit and headed out the next day to wherever. But it was. And then I was happy. I mean, I'm happy in that environment. I like being self sufficient and for the most part walking and stuff. So I was just very happy and sad when it was done. But.

Speaker E: Yeah, what, what is it? What's the experience at the finish line? Um, like, is it. Are there folks there celebrate finish or what's that experience like?

Speaker D: Yeah, so I always think about this in comparison to something like the Twin Cities Marathon, when you've got thousands of people, you know.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker D: And, and typically there's just like a couple people waiting. You know, you kind of get to the finish line, which, the finish line of the Iditarod dog race is on a street in the middle of a street in Gnome Main Street. I can't remember what it's called. Front street, maybe. Um, but that finish line is gone by the time we get there. The snow is gone. They've taken the world famous burled arch and moved it to a church parking lot several blocks away. And, um, and normally you kind of get there and you text the race director your time so that he can write it down in the record. And, uh, but I have a, I have a friend now. Um, her name is Carol, uh, and she lives in Nome. She's, um, an Alaskan native and she's just like the staple for Nome. And she was there and she gathered a friend. And then what I think were two high school students maybe Dressed up in these blow up gnome costumes. So they were playing the Proclaimers song, um, the 500 miles. And like these gnomes were like bouncing and dancing. So I think there were like five people at our finish and my mom flew up from Minnesota to surprise us. So maybe there were like five or six people at the finish. It was pretty amazing. But yeah, we were walking down the street and Peter goes, that's it. I'm like, what's it? He's like, we're done. We're uh, like well we're in the middle of the street, we have to go somewhere else. So it was, it was funny and weird. It was weird.

Speaker E: Yeah. So, so you were, you were in Gnome. N O M e and they were dressed up as gnomes. G, N O M E. Correct.

Speaker D: Okay, okay.

Speaker E: Because when I, when I heard that I thought what does a gnome look like? And then, then I, then I realized, oh yeah, yeah, okay, I know what

Speaker D: almost like with the beard and, and I could hear them like I think they were young because I could hear them like squealing and giggling inside the, inside the blowup costume was. I have, yeah. I've never felt more like honored and special. I mean they had, it was cold. I'm sure they were ready to be done with their day but they came out to wish us well. So that was really special.

Speaker E: Oh yeah, it's, it's unique to, to, to agree. Be greeted by a crew of gnomes after completing a thousand mile trek across the Alex Wilderness. So yeah, that's pretty special. Um, I think you said, um, that fear and self doubt are actually signals you're doing something important. That if you don't feel them, you're not pushing yourself. Can you kind of explain what that, that's, that is.

Speaker D: Yeah. And you know, if, if anybody wants to do Winter Ultra race, I will say the fear is like when you are signing up for the race and getting ready to. Not during the race. You should, yeah, we should all be safe. Okay. Um, but yeah, I think that there's this um, maybe this belief that when we're following our hopes and dreams, which I think that um, that it's going to feel empowering the entire time that we're not going to have any doubts, we're not going to have any fear. Um, and for me if I get this like nervous feeling in my stomach but also my eyes are really wide, uh, I know that I'm on the right track. You know, it's, it's just the cost or the signal maybe that you're about to do something really important.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker D: To you. You know, m. It's not a. It's not a reason to stop or to not try and fear, which. I had a really good year. I didn't really have any. I had no fear, you know, going through it. But, um, fear is a really good companion, A, uh, strong and healthy companion for us. It's trying to keep us alive. So I think it's. Usually. I always take it as information, you know, if my hackles are up, you know, what. What's. What's going on? What do I need to do here to kind of adjust the situation? So I was. I try to look at it like a companion. Yeah. And not a stopper.

Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah. Unless that fear is during the summer and it's a bear that's falling, Then

Speaker D: be afraid and run away. I mean. Or don't run. I don't know.

Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah. There's a different reaction depending on whether it's a black bear or a brown bear.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker E: I can't remember what exactly it is. Um, I think you're. Yeah.

Speaker D: Yeah. If it's a black bear, you fight.

Speaker E: Okay.

Speaker D: It's a brown bear. You curl into a ball.

Speaker E: Yeah. Because you don't have a chance. So, uh, for sure. So to kind of pivot a little bit, talk more about Wild Winter Women. Um, can you tell us about Wild Winter Women and where did the idea come from, and what were you trying to create with that kind of community?

Speaker D: Yeah. Um, and so Wild Winter Women is a Facebook group that I created a few years ago. And it's. I always say it's more than a Facebook group, but it started out In, I think, 2016, when I told the line at Taskobia 80 in Rice Lake, Wisconsin. Um, it's a winter ultra. That was my first Winter ultra. And I had met a few other women, like three, I think, um, at the start, who were also doing their first Winter ultra. We do the race. It was epic. Uh, I mean, I'm sure I was totally embarrassing now. Um, I thought maybe I was prepared for it, but maybe. Maybe I wasn't. But, um, I did finish, and everything's fine. And someone had the idea to get together afterwards and for a dinner and just share the ideas that we came up with and the experiences. We had, mistakes that we made. Um, and we did. And it was six of us at a dinner in Roseville or something like that. And I learned a lot, and it was awesome. And then there was another year and another to Scopia and another dinner Again, I think it was six people. And then the next year we decided to meet at someone's house for a dinner and then we'd walk on, walk and pull our sleds and I was the only one that showed up. So I mean it's okay. We're all, we're all introverts. I mean it's like herding cats for real. Um, but by that time I was, I was gaining so much knowledge from this small group of people and I thought I want more women at these races. And this is, we need to reach more people and we're not doing dinners. That's not working. So I kind of sent to everyone an email because that's how we were communicating at the time. Again, introverts and asked uh, them if they were cool with. I started this group, um, and I created this page that is now, it seems like a little, but it's actually a lot of people. I think we're over 500 people now, uh, that is focused on sharing information, mentorship, encouragement, swapping gear, selling gear, lending gear. Because these races are so expensive, um, it's built on like getting more women empowered that want to do these races, more women out there and then also that we can still like encourage each other and mentor each other and be fierce competitors. I mean they're races and it's fun to go out there and see what you can do. So it's a really, I think it's a really special place and there's a lot of things that are specific to women that are specifically challenging for women in these races and they don't, they're not going to ask a group, a co ed group, facial group, right? So like, like okay, it's negative 30 degrees. What, like what happens if I get my period, you know and it's a three day race and we've got to, we've got a feed for that, right? We've got like a, we've got steps for that. So, um, it's, it is a really cool, it is a really cool group. And when I first started it I kind of had these ideas of what I wanted to expand it to. And one of them is to host a, like a wild winter women university in my house which is just Come to my house, it's free and we share ideas and we'll have clinics and talks and challenges and we eat cookies that my mom made that are like wild winter women themed and we sleep outside at night and just getting more women used to, you know, I don't know, being kind of like nervous about stuff like that but going anyways. So empowered.

Speaker E: Yeah, yeah. Um, what do you see as one of the biggest barriers to more women getting into winter ultra racing?

Speaker D: The. I think there's two. Um, and the one that is probably applies to everyone that wants to do these winter races, um, is a financial barrier. The races are, can be expensive, some of them aren't. Um, but there's a lot of gear and a lot like Arrowhead will have a required gear list and one of those things is a negative 20 degree sleeping bag, um, which come at a hefty price tag. Um, and then there's also trying to figure out what kit works for you. You know the thing that works for me perfectly is not going to work for someone else. So you have to do a lot of gear testing and, and so we share a lot of gear, um, and information so that people can maybe if they are buying something they um, can make the right choice for them. Um, and the other barrier, but I think is the biggest one, uh, which is what I call the job interview barrier, which is not a thing. I just made it up. Yeah, but I read something once that, that men will apply for jobs that they're not qualified for but they like, they want to do it so they just show up like, oh, I got three out of the 10 and I'm just going to like shoot my shot. And women, and I love women so much all the way, but they will be like, oh, I only read. I only have nine out of the 10 qualifications so I guess I'm not, you know, ready for it. And I think that has to do with this deep seated generational trauma of women showing up to big things and failing and having someone say, see, that's why you can't, you know, be here. And I don't. And to be clear, no one in our um, no one in our community is saying that out loud, at least to me. But um, but there, there is this like what happens if I fail thing and what happens if I go out there and I get into trouble. Um, and the failure is part of it. I mean I've finished the biggest race in our community but I've also DNF did not finish half the winter races that I've ever filled the line on. So like it, things happen and it's okay. We have to be okay with that. It's just like life, you know, but the, the university is seriously, I think the best way to kind of tackle that is to just give people enough information where they feel like they can something can happen to them like they step in overflow or the temperature drops to negative 40 and they can, they can like make decisions and protect themselves and be empowered and be. Because even when it is cold out there, like there's no reason why we should be cold. We should be comfortable. So it's just knowledge and gear and, and then also just kind of believing that you can do it. And sometimes that is just having a bunch of really cool women in your circle looking at you in your face saying, I know you can do this.

Speaker E: Mhm. That's, that's great. Um, so you're both, you're both kind of, you're an elite competitor. You're doing the, the biggest races out there in the winter ultra space. And you're also now an advocate and a community builder. So how do those two roles kind of feed off each other?

Speaker D: Other? They, that's a really good question. Um, at some point they both just melded and became my personality. Like, I'm, like once I'm, once I have my teeth, you know, hooked into something, it's like I'm all about it. Um, and like our community, men and women for winter ultras, we have just the best community and um, including race directors who are building equity for women on the trail as well. So without them we, we would see the same numbers, you know, every year. Um, but yeah, it is definitely something that I'm deeply passionate about. Um, I would rather be last place in a group of 10 women than first place in a group of one. You know, I, I think that we're, I think women are also really good at doing long distance stuff. Um, so, you know, if, if anyone was interested, that is what I, you know, I hope for our sport is to just get more, more women out there doing it. Um, there was one athlete who's an avid, um, a very accomplished trail runner in our, in our community. Um, and had always said like, no, I don't want to do the winter thing. You know, and people were like, you should, you're so good at everything else. You know, there was like peer pressure in there, I think. Um, and it was a no. And then two years ago she came to the university and that's kind of when we started talking about you don't have to be cold out there. You know, I've heard that from people. They say, kari, I don't like to be cold like you like to be cold. I don't have to be cold. I like to be warm actually. Um, and so she came to our university and There was like a seed planted. And the next year, this is last winter, she did her first to Scobia 80 with her friend. I mean, she's got like a solid group of women people, um, supporting her and like, to have her go from a no, this is not my thing to maybe I'll try it to I'm going to do it to did it. I was like, oh, uh, God, I could retire. Like, I get more excited about that than my own races. For sure. I mean, it's just really cool to see people do something they think that maybe was big and hard or too hard for them or too big for them.

Speaker E: Yeah, for sure. And I, I, uh, feel like there's. It feels like there's almost something in the water in Minnesota with women and endurance athletes. Almost. We've got, obviously two of the world's greatest women endurance athletes are from Minnesota, um, with Jesse Diggins, obviously, um, and then Courtney Dewalter, the world's greatest trail runner, um, is from Minnesota. What is it about Minnesota that creates these amazing, uh, endurance athletes?

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I think that. I think it's our seasons, right? Like, we even, even in the summertime, the summer is going to make you pay for it with the 1 million percent humidity. But there was a Boston Marathon a few years ago where like, it was raining, freezing rain, and people were running in garbage bags. And then there were just the Midwesterners having a great day. Yeah, I mean, I think it's. I think we, we. It's in our culture to just be burly, I think.

Speaker E: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Um, and this kind of goes along those lines kind of turn towards the last bit, last few questions. And it's about, basically about how awesome Minnesota is.

Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker E: But, um, so you've trained and you've raced on Minnesota trails, talked about the Worth and, uh, Arrowhead and the Northwoods. What does Minnesota's winter landscape mean to you as an athlete and as a person?

Speaker D: Now I'm going to get all woo, woo on you, but I, I mean, especially when we have snow, it always breaks my heart a little bit when we don't have a big winter. But, um, my, like, spirit expands when I see our winter, Minnesota winter landscape. I mean, even like Lake Superior, just big and traumatic and gray. Um, in the woods, the wild woods and in our theater Worth, I mean, it's just. And they're also. I really love when you walk outside and you take a breath and you're like, lungs kind of collapse because it's so cold. I do like that feeling. But, um, I'm. You know, I'm an artist, and I. I can't help but just fall in love with these landscapes. I mean, it is so beautiful here. We are really in a special place, and you could just throw a rock and go anywhere in the state. And I think it's just so beautiful, including, like, our prairie, you know, down southwest, um, our prairie lands. And it's just. It is really, really special.

Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah, I think, um, I. I'm a transplant. I moved here about six years ago. M. And the thing that stood out to me, I think, in the wintertime is the. It's almost as if, particularly in cold winters, maybe, um, not the last few years after this, before this one. But, um, it feels like it's always snowing. I mean, not like snow in the sense that people understand it in other places, but snow in the sense that it's so cold that the condensation in the air freezes. And so there's always some kind of glitter frozen glitter in the air.

Speaker D: Exactly, Exactly. Oh, truly.

Speaker C: Um.

Speaker D: There have been so many Arrowhead nights when I've been walking into my headlight, and you just walk all night long and there's just glitter in the air. I mean, it is very showy. I love it.

Speaker E: Yeah, it's very picturesque. Very cinematic.

Speaker D: Um, it is. Yeah.

Speaker E: For sure.

Speaker D: And I think that people, like, embrace winter here in ways that, um, you know, I think is also special. You kind of get, like, hints of it, too, if you go up to Winnipeg. Oh, yeah. You guys just like being outside. Here's your, you know, outdoor curling rink. Um, but we'll just come up with stuff to do outside. You know, we've got fat bike races in the winter. Um, and the loom Luminary lopeb it. People can walk around and drink cocoa and see lights outside. I mean, the more you run. And if you're not a winter of. I mean, if you're not a lover of winter, the more you run from it, the harder it gets. So you might as well just find an activity this winter and fall in love with it, if you can.

Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah. We even have art exhibitions on frozen lakes.

Speaker D: Yeah. Isn't that amazing?

Speaker E: We just. We just move our. Our museum just completely outdoors and just put them on the frozen lakes.

Speaker D: Yep, yep.

Speaker E: Um, so. So to wrap it up here, um, what is. What's next for you personally, uh, in your journey as an endurance athlete? And. And what's next for. What do you hope to see next for Wild Winter women.

Speaker D: So what's Next for me, um, I'm hoping to go back to Alaska in 2027. So for the Iditarod Trail Invitational, there's two routes. The Northern route where you go up through the Alaskan interior to Ruby and then hit the Yukon. And then there's the southern route and on the odd years they'll take a left basically, um, leaving McGrath more or less. It's longer, wilder, there's no support on the Yukon. It's hillier, it's harder. No woman has finished it on foot. So that I had my eye on that one for a while. And really, um, you know, a lot of this. Why is that I have is like someone looks at me and goes, well, Kari can do it. I know I can. I want a million women to say that like, like, if I can do this, you definitely can do this. Um, because I am like a couch potato. So you, you can do it if you dream it. So, um, I've got my eye on that one. I'm hoping it's not, um, it's not set yet, but I'm hoping to do that. Wild, um, Winter Women, my university that I host, I think this will be the fifth year that I'll host. It has outgrown my tiny little house. I, um, think we maxed out at 25 people and people are just like sitting on the floor. Um, it's actually really nice because people are kind of more forced to chat with each other, I guess. Um, but I think I need to find a place to go and I always want the event to be free. Um, I don't want there to be another added cost to it. Um, so I'm, I think if we're continuing to expand the way that we are, I think we might be looking at a venue change this year. Um, and so that's bittersweet. I think we started with eight people the first year we did the university. Uh, so it's, it is a really fun weekend. So that's going to be big change coming. Maybe a big change coming. And then the other thing I'd like to add is a, like a donation base to kind of scholarship fund some women, um, to their, to their dream race, um, like St. Croix 40, um, which is an entry level winter ultra race in St. Croix State Park. An awesome race if anybody wants to try, like to try their hand, um, at this style of racing. Um, just something like that. We were able to send some support, um, some support money, um, this year and I'd like to grow that. You know, the, you still have to do the work, you know, you still have to be able to walk all day and all night and then all day and all night again, you know? Um, but having dreams is such a uniquely human thing, and there are times when in my life where I was so in flight or fight that I didn't have time to even think about tomorrow. It was just get through this next, you know? And so having dreams is such a huge privilege that we can lean into that as much as we can. And not having enough money to. To accomplish your dreams is dumb. So I want to take that, remove the dumb, you know, reasons why, uh, and then just. Yeah, so that's what I'd like to do with it, I think.

Speaker E: Fantastic. And maybe one day you'll get sponsored by Nerds. Gummy clusters.

Speaker D: We've been kind of like, there's a woman in our group who's been, like, tagging, um, Little Debbie in all of our training runs because people are. You know, those things don't freeze. Probably because there's no real.

Speaker E: Wow. Yeah.

Speaker D: But, like, we need, like, some sponsorship by. And so. Oh, I bet you're. You walked a thousand miles. You must be so healthy. Sure. Yeah.

Speaker E: Yeah. I love that.

Speaker C: I love.

Speaker E: I love seeing what some endurance athletes feel themselves with on Just garbage. Yeah. But, I mean, you're, um, so awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time today. Learn a lot about your adventures and Wild Winter Women. If someone's interested in learning more about Wild Winter Women, should they just, uh, check out the Facebook page or what would they do?

Speaker D: Yeah, check out the Facebook page. Um, the Facebook group to protect the conversations. As a women's only group, we do have an Instagram and, um, new last year, a YouTube channel where we interview women that have done races and they talk about their adventures and all sorts of things. So if you're interested, listen to the podcast, all the podcasts, read all the race reports, um, and then follow us on the Gram

Speaker E: next time we talk. You're going to be a multimedia conglomerate. Uh, you're going to be on TikTok, probably.

Speaker D: Oh, my goodness. I don't know. Oh, geez. I don't know about that. There.

Speaker E: Yeah, Yeah.

Speaker D: M. Welcome back.

Speaker B: That was Carrie Gibbons, Winter ultra athlete, artist, and the founder of Wild Winter Women.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, Sarah, what stuck with you about this conversation?

Speaker B: Okay, well, first of all, I have to admit, I am just stuck on the name Wild Winter Women. I mean, if that doesn't draw you in, I don't know what does. But, um, there are a few other things that struck me as well and the first is, is what Carrie said about fear, that fear isn't a stop sign, it's a signal. If your stomach is nervous and your eyes are wide, you're probably about to do something that really matters to you. And I think that applies way beyond winter ultras. It applies to life.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, a little anxiety about something that you're passionate about kind of keeps you coming back to it. So keep coming back to her strategy. So never get to a checkpoint, trash something we learned, and want to show up to the end of every day fed, uh, hydrated, dry, and ready to go for the next day. So take care of yourself all day long, and the thousand miles takes care of itself. And I think that that's just a real philosophy for real life beyond racing and good for everyone to hear.

Speaker B: So true. It is good advice for all of us. And one of the other things I loved is when she talked about how she didn't want it to be over. She literally walked a thousand miles across Alaska. She gets to the finish line, and her main feeling there at that end of the line was that she wasn't ready to stop. And I think that tells you a lot about the experience and it tells you everything about how she relates to these landscapes. A few things I think, Lauren, we want listeners to take away. One is that Wild Winter Women is on Facebook, and they're also on Instagram and now YouTube. So if you're a woman who's curious about winter ultras or, you know, one, you can send them that way. Yep.

Speaker A: And number two, if you want to try this style of racing, Carrie pointed out The St. Croix 40 at St. Croix State park. And it's a really great entry point, and it's right here in Minnesota.

Speaker B: And another thing we want people to take away, and this is one I think we really want to leave folks with. Having dreams is a uniquely human privilege. And there are seasons in life or moments in life when you really can't even think about tomorrow because you're just getting through today. I'm certainly experienced that myself a time or two. And so when you do have the room to dream, it's so important that you lean into it.

Speaker A: I agree, Sarah, and I think that that's such a good place to land this episode. So whatever your version of, um, this thousand mile walk is, go find it, get out there, discover something new.

Speaker B: So thanks for listening to Explore Minnesota more. If this episode moved you, we ask that you share it with someone who needs a nudge outside next winter or this summer or maybe even right now, Sam.