EP 304: Wealth Wisdom through Enneagram Insights w/ Doug Lynam

Speaker A: Here's maybe the biggest lesson I've learned from the Enneagram is that every time I have hurt someone unintentionally or someone has hurt me, we were inevitably acting out the worst elements of our Enneagram, type of the shadow structure of our personality. And when you understand that this is how suffering gets transmitted through the world through, ah, really a lack of understanding of, um, what's driving you and what's driving others, then it's a great tool for relieving the suffering in your personal life, but also in your business and in your financial life.

Speaker B: This is the Entrepreneurs United Podcast with

Speaker A: your hosts, John St. Pierre and Rich Hoffman.

Speaker B: Hey, entrepreneurs. Today we're sitting down with Doug Lyneham. Doug, welcome to the Entrepreneurs United Podcast.

Speaker A: Hey, thanks, John. It's great to be here.

Speaker B: Doug, you wrote two books, from Monk to Money Manager and Taming your Money Master. And on your LinkedIn header, it says, turn money stress into success. I want to hear quickly, what is your story? Why did you come to write two books on this topic? And why is it so important to you?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, the second one is called Taming your Money Monster. Uh, nine paths to Money Mastery with the Enneagram. Just to clarify that. Got it. But I would just say my journey to this point is quite complicated. But essentially, one of the things I was trying to answer in both books is how do you bring your, uh. Without getting into religion or politics or cultural values, how do you bring your highest spirit in a way that would transcend those things? How do you bring your highest spiritual values in alignment with your finances and your money so that the material and the spiritual are not in conflict? That's essentially the heart of it. And then, of course, getting into the details is way more complicated.

Speaker C: Doug, tell me about. With the Enneagram, there are nine different types. And your book, I haven't read it, but I presume from the title and understanding a bit about the Enneagram, each of those types can be wired for money mastery.

Speaker A: Exactly. And each of them can sabotage you in really tragic ways if you're not careful.

Speaker C: And before we started recording, I shared, I'm, uh, a Type two. You had said you're a, uh, Type three. For starters, how could as a type 2 as the helper, And you as a type 3 as the achiever, how are they uniquely different to sabotage ourselves?

Speaker A: Okay, so maybe we should just. I'll give a quick intro to the Enneagram. So, the Enneagram is a very robust personality typology system. We're not Talking astrology or woo woo. Here it's really grounded an ancient system, but it's now been grounded in both neurobiology and childhood developmental psychology to understand how your ego is structured and formed. And it turns out, just like cars, there's only so many ways you can design a car and have it be roadworthy. So there's categories of cars, there's SUVs, there's sports cars, there's family sedans with these broad generalizations of styles of cars. Even though the one that you drive is completely unique, you drive a unique year, make and model with all the dents and bumpers on the bumpers and whatever. And your ego is the same way. There's only so many ways you can design an ego in broad strokes and have it be roadworthy, have it function. And what we and the why behind it is quite complicated. We don't have a time for that here. But what we've discovered is it's like an onion, there's layers to it. So we're just talking about the top layer of a very complicated onion, which is your personality. But it turns out there's just nine archetypal patterns or defense mechanisms that we develop in childhood to help us navigate the biggest stressors in that childhood environment. And so it's how does your ego form to defend you against the greatest fears that you encountered in your childhood? And that then shapes how you view all of reality. How you do business, how you do life, how you do relationships, but also how you handle money and in healthy and unhealthy ways. And one of the quick caveats on the enneagram is it's not a static system. It's well, you're this type and this is how it defines you. This is what we're going to talk about today is the unhealthy patterns that you can have. But it has a growth model built into it. And so as you mature and grow, your personality evolves and looks very different than it did say in the early years of your life. So that's just a quick framework that helps make sense of it.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. Uh, tell me about, in our two types, how do we uniquely sabotage ourselves related to wealth?

Speaker A: Okay, so for type 2, we often know the numbers don't matter, they're just placeholders. So type 2 is often called the helper. Uh, and for type twos, the what type 2 struggles. What type twos struggle with is a sense of not being lovable or not being loved. And so what that means is there are the greatest unconscious fear Is that not being lovable then creates them to be very service oriented and very warm and very kind and loving human beings. But they tend to get themselves, when they're unhealthy, into the trap of rescuing other people. They often play as give to get. So what, for example, um, the best way to get someone to compliment you is to compliment them first. So I'll tell you, oh, that's a great shirt you're wearing. Or I. Or to do some active service, look, let me help you with something. And then. But twos are unconsciously expecting that flattery or that help to be reciprocated in some meaningful way. So they're often keeping a little scorecard in their head as they go through life of I've done this for you, now what are you going to kind of do back for me? And I call them, I give them car metaphors. So I call type 2 the ambulance of egos because they're always running around rescuing people and chasing that dopamine fix of gratitude they get from their acts of service. And where I can get them into trouble with money is in two ways. One, I call them the two money monsters. For type two, I call them the Bleeder and the bonder. So type 2 is the bleeder is the type who is always giving of their time, their talent and their treasure, trying to help other people because they're so concerned about their image management of getting that gratitude back that they can deplete themselves both, both in terms of their time, in terms of their resources. And that can really be a trap for them. And then the other money monster, I call it the Bonder, which is where they often use their wealth or their to create codependency in others. They'll. They're in this give. There's that old aphorism that it's better to teach a man to fish than to give him a fish every day. Sometimes Twos would rather give someone that fish every single day with a side of tartar sauce and a note that says you're amazing, rather than because they want the gratitude rather than creating the conditions for true independence and freedom. Does that track at all with you?

Speaker C: Yeah, that makes sense. How is it different for a type 3?

Speaker A: For example, type threes, we're often called the achievers. So we're often always trying to m. We have this infinite to do list in our heads. We're always. We say type threes often aren't human beings, we're human doings. And I call us the race car of egos because we're always gunning for the finish line, wanting to be in pole position, but we tend to leave our authentic selves in the dust. And the reason is that Threes struggle with an unconscious fear that they're fundamentally worthless. They don't have any value in the world. So they're trying to overcompensate for that sense of. Of worthlessness by achieving great things in the eyes of the society around them. Um, but that can leave them sort of dancing on strings to what everybody else thinks is important. And they're often expert mass changers. We will switch our Personas to whatever we think is going to impress the people in front of us. But where that can get us in trouble, in business and in money. The two money m monsters for the three. I call them the barrier and the Blinger. And now the barrier is a little less common, but they tend to have a lot of shame around. Their finances aren't in good shape. They, to me, very avoidant around it. So they're like an ostrich that buries its head in the sand. They just don't want to look at it or pay attention to it. So they'll often neglect their finances in ways that create real hardship for themselves. A little more common for type three, when they're unhealthy is what I call the Blinger, meaning they're very often concerned about image management. So they want the fancy house, the nice car, the fancy watch. It's like they. One way to get status in society is having a lot of status symbols. So Threes can fall into this trap of. Of performing, of trying to look good in the eyes of others. Kind of like a Hollywood set where it's beautiful on the outside, but sometimes it's paint and plywood on the inside. So I don't know if, Jeff, that resonates with you at all, Doug.

Speaker B: I just want to make sure I got this straight. Did you say there's nine types?

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: And so you just covered two of them, right?

Speaker A: Yep. Very briefly. Very briefly.

Speaker B: And okay, so without. Without even saying more, could you just don't even define them. Two is helper, and three is achiever. What's one and what's four? Just so I get my bearings straight.

Speaker A: Okay. So again, the numbers don't matter. They're just placeholders. It's like, you could call a color. You could call it a.

Speaker B: Okay, color's a good example for me. It's a type of car. It's a color.

Speaker A: It doesn't really. So they're just so type One. So the way to think of the Enneagram is to think of a color wheel. So if you had a color wheel and you were to divide it into nine even pie slices, your personality lies somewhere in a range within a quadrant on that color wheel with infinite hues, shades and textures that are possible.

Speaker B: Okay, so let me just get this straight though. If Achiever is red. Would be the maroon color right next to it. What would be like on that side? And a helper is blue. What's the bit of that?

Speaker A: Okay, so if we were to do type one and then four, which you're going around. So type one is often called the improver. I call them the BMW of egos because they're rather precision engineered. But they do take a fair bit of maintenance. So type ones, uh, their greatest fear is being bad or defective. So they're, they have this inner critic in their head that's always telling them to this strong sense of morals and of doing it right. They're really afraid of, of being a bad boy or a bad girl. They were raised in a vi. An environment that had really strict religious codes, or they took on too much responsibility as a child, or a lot of pressure was put on to be the perfect child. So they're, they're, they have this deep anger towards themselves when they don't do things the right way. And often that comes out towards others when they see other people not doing things the right way. So as a quick example, a friend of mine was a type 1. We walked into a fancy restaurant and the first thing he noticed is that there was a painting that was crooked on the far wall and had to point it out to the waitress. It's like see the flaws in themselves and things very easily. That's part of their strength, but also part of their weakness.

Speaker B: Okay, let's go to the other side of that then. 4.

Speaker A: Type 4 is called the individualist. I call them the custom car because they would drive their. They would paint their car purple and drive it backwards to stand out from the crowd. So type fours struggle with a deep fear of not having a unique identity. They feel like they're always the odd one out and then they make that difference. The defining feature for themselves. So they're always trying to stand out and stand apart by just think, think different. That's the tagline for a four. So they, they tend to be iconoclasts who rebel against conventionality. Okay.

Speaker B: Love it. So I have to ask this. I don't want to go through all of them. This is fascinating to Me because I'd never heard of this and I'm connecting obviously with where I fit in this and how it all fits. How does this help people turn money stress into success? How does knowing where you fit help you?

Speaker A: Because it tells you where your blind spots are, it tells you what your weaknesses are and maybe what some of the counter moves that you can take to build a healthier financial future. So like for threes it's okay, can you get out of the image management? Can you stop worrying about what other, other people think and stop like. So in finance there's what I call the four pillars of finance and that's going to be earning, saving, investing and giving. So earning, saving, investing, giving. And for me the giving part is the fun part. Like how do you use your wealth as a tool for love and service to a suffering world? But each type has a unique blind spot or a struggles in one of those areas. So for twos it can often be the saving part can be hard because they're so busy. Uh, they may be very, tend to be good at the earning part. But then it's like they want the status symbols or they're more worried about the image rather than getting to the, the nuts and bolts of the investing or they're chasing the high returns or the, they're shooting for the moon rather than doing so. The slow, more diligent, patient work that that uh, robust financial future requires, that's just a really quick example. We could go much deeper than that. And like twos, it might be too much, too much on the giving. Like they, they focus on the giving, they jump to that too fast and that can decimate their savings and their investing strategies.

Speaker C: Are you studied from the Enneagram Institute or a different foundation?

Speaker A: I studied under Richard Rohr who was one of the pioneers of the Enneagram and one of the great. He's been a friend of mine for 30 years. He wrote the forward to my book and, and then a lot of it was just self taught, being a bit of an autodidact, just jumping into. There's a lot of great literature out there. So those, those have been my two primary ways of learning about it.

Speaker C: And tell me about the crossover that you've developed. I think it's your philosophy in the money management aspect of Enneagram that's unique and you've developed that. Correct?

Speaker A: Correct. 100%, yeah.

Speaker C: Tell me about the crossover of your financial education and how you came about thinking about oh the nine archetypes those actually map over on the financial side how did that all come about for you?

Speaker A: That's a really long story, but so in my first book, From Monk to Money Manager, I came up with about 16 money monsters that I had just randomly identified in my journeys of life. And then I got the second book deal and they. And I started working with the Enneagram. And I realized that all these money monsters I'd independently come up with, if I just added two or three, actually added three more that I was missing, I would have 18, and they would map perfectly to. For each of the nine Enneagram types. And that was really a home run. In my mind. I was seeing these two systems come together in a really beautiful way.

Speaker C: And can you give me a success story or two of people who have been exposed to this material? And it's made a real difference in real life, not just being more accepting of themselves or. Although that's a real difference also. But when we're talking about wealth, there's a measuring stick. It made a real difference because they were able to earn more, save more, invest more, give more. Can you tell me some success stories there?

Speaker A: Yeah. A good example of a type 2 who was like, they couldn't really get their financial house in order because they were so busy worrying about what everybody else needed and everybody else wanted. And it was teaching them to pay yourself first, essentially, is one of the golden rules of finance is you gotta get your own house in order before you go out there and try to take care of others. And so helping that person in particular realize stop being feeling so guilty that they aren't giving more. They were basically had. Their kids were codependent. You gotta cut the cord at some point. Let the kids who are adults succeed on their own merits and not, uh, feel like you have to fund every little adventure that or desire that they have. And then also being able to feel like, okay, this person gives generously to charity, but what's your 401k looking like? How much are you giving to that put the pieces in the right sequencing in order. So now that your financial house is really robust or strong, and that person was able then to, uh, really have a really successful retirement after that point when they got the pieces in line.

Speaker C: Regarding your history as a Marine, first of all, thank you for your service. And tell me about how some principles that you learned there in the military have then mapped over and are now part of what you're teaching.

Speaker A: So the Marines really taught me a lot about discipline, about, uh, service, about living for something higher than yourself, and about sacrifice. And so Those things, I think, apply very well to, uh, a good financial life is helping both in my own practice and then with others develop the discipline that they need in order to get all these four pillars of finance in alignment. And then I think the really great thing is showing people how a lot of people think that thinking about money is greedy or it's selfish or it feels icky to them because they feel like talking about money is inherently be dirty in some way and helping them get over those anxieties to see that actually when you do this right now, you have the tools to go out there and be of greater service to the world. Because money is just how we put our values into action. You can't do much of anything. This is what I Learned in my 20 years in the monastery as well, is it's hard to be of service without some money in your pocket. And so helping people have the resources to go out there and really live their values and live a life that makes their soul sing is one of the greatest gifts you can give another human being.

Speaker B: Doug, I want to understand a little bit more about both books for a second. But first off, from. From Monk to Money Master.

Speaker A: Money Manager. From Monk to Money Manager.

Speaker B: Yes. So From Monk to Money Manager. Excuse me, I'm getting. That's it. From Monk to Money Manager. The, uh, subtitle of that is A Former Monk's Financial Guide to Becoming a Little Built, a Little Bit Wealthy. And why that's okay.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And obviously, um, you said 20 years.

Speaker A: 20 years.

Speaker B: Why is it okay. Why is it okay to become a little wealthy? And why should people not have guilt with that?

Speaker A: Because the amount of suffering that I've. So when I was in the monastery, one of the things I noticed is a lot of guests would come to our community asking me to pray for them. And sure, happy to do that. But you know what? A budget might work a little bit better to solve some of your problems. God's not going to work a miracle to solve a problem that you have the power to fix. And what I realized is that so many of their existential struggles, their spiritual struggles, their emotional struggles were either there was either was a financial problem that was the direct cause of it, or. Or there was a. Was a secondary issue in the background that was causing them tremendous amounts of stress. And what we know from the research is that your socioeconomic status now is the best predictor of when you're likely to die. Because poor people get hit with a laundry list of stressors that you just don't want to have in your life. Poor people have higher rates of obesity, addiction, drug abuse, domestic violence, workplace injury, crime, um, everything. All the things that you don't want in your life go up, uh, as your socioeconomic status goes down. That for my time in the monastery, living a life of poverty, I realized that true poverty is like walking a tightrope over a pit of alligators every single day. And if you can take that stress off of people now, they have both the cognitive freedom, the emotional confidence, and freedom to really go out there and actually be of service to the world rather than struggling for a paycheck day to day and being stuck in this grind that keeps them trapped in a life that really, for many people, isn't the highest life they could be living. So it's really getting people out of that financial pit so that they can have the wealth, so that they can take care of themselves, take care of the family and the people that they love, and then work out to wider levels of responsibility within their community.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. And the second book, and I'm going to get the title right this time. Taming your Money Monster. Nine Paths to Money Mastery with the Enneagram. We talked a little bit about the Enneagram here, and I think, if I understand correctly, we all have this thing with money. It could be one way or the other, we all have this thing, And overcoming that really helps unleash your potential. Is that kind of the. Is that kind of what I really understand, truly understanding a little bit about yourself and your issue that you may have with it, uh, whatever it may be, is the key to that book.

Speaker A: You got it? Yeah. What is that thing that's holding you back from having the financial life that you really want to live?

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that you need to dive into both of these books personally, because I need to understand a lot more about this. But for the person listening to this right now, beyond going to read the books, What are one or two actions they could take this afternoon, tomorrow to really dive into this a little bit further for themselves?

Speaker A: Sure. I'll send you a, uh, link input in the show notes to a free Enneagram test. Uh, no test is perfect. And they all. It's just a starting point, but it would help, I think, your listeners begin to understand what their type might be and then get them curious about diving deeper into how that relates to the relationship with money.

Speaker C: What's the format that you prefer to share your knowledge in? Is it coaching? Is it group sessions, workshops, uh, doing large speaking events?

Speaker A: What's your preference I like all of them. But I think intimate workshops or because it's such a deep topic and it's got a lot of technical aspects to it, I think workshops are where you can really go into the depth that's necessary to have people come away with real actionable items. But I certainly do enjoy doing keynotes and speaking events and then coaching one on one of course is wonderful. That is really transformative work for people who are called to it.

Speaker C: And for those who have you in for a workshop, can you tell me about what is the prep that you ask the participants to do?

Speaker A: Judge, Ask them to take an enneagram test, just another type coming in or have a guess at it. It helps. And then we'll just take it from there.

Speaker C: And how long is a workshop typically?

Speaker A: I can run them. I've done them in two hours. I've done them over several days. I'm doing a ah, full week all along retreat coming up in September. So it really just depends on the space that the format allows. And I can customize it to whatever the venue happens to be.

Speaker C: Tell me about the difference in value that someone gets in working with you when they have a two hour workshop versus you're saying I also do an entire week workshop. That's a pretty big variance. So what's the value somebody gets from two hours versus a whole week with

Speaker A: you in uh, two hours? We can introduce people to the any because first you have to teach the enneagram, right? So that's a big topic. And then you have to teach the money piece on top of that, which is another uh, element. And we can get through that in about two hours. Where the workshop can get much more interesting is we'll look at the uh, I've created ego maps for each of the nine types that details in depth the shadow structure of each type and then your kind of your path to enlightenment or awakening for each type. And you can really see the steps and teach the tools to put those into practice for you. So it gets much more rich the long, the more time we have to go into it.

Speaker C: And what were the maps that you just referenced? What was that called?

Speaker A: I call them ego maps. So it's like a, uh, essentially a think of a ladder going up from your lowest self to your highest self. What is, what are all the steps? The first, the bottom half would be what you in Jungian psychology would call your shadow or what are the darker, more difficult aspects of your personality that tend to get in the way or drive your life into a ditch. And then what are the counter steps you can take to overcome that so that you really are at, uh, the healthiest expression of your personality?

Speaker C: And again, I have to ask, where did you get educated on Jungian psychology?

Speaker A: Again, I'm a bit of an autodidact. I'm very much. My background is in philosophy and mathematics.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: So I definitely got a good bit there. But then a lot of it has just been my own curiosity over the decades about how does consciousness work? Uh, and that's really what drove me down this rabbit hole in many ways.

Speaker C: And as a, uh, type three yourself, I'm curious on how do you know that you were a success with your practice?

Speaker A: It depends on how you want to measure it.

Speaker C: That's not how I want to measure it. I'm asking how do you know that you are a success so you don't get into overachieving. Yeah. At the sacrifice of something else. What is success for you and how will you know when you got there?

Speaker A: Success for me really is about building something bigger than myself, is about pouring people so success. I think I feel very grateful for the successes that I've had with these books, with the clients that I've worked with, the business that I've built. So I feel really good about the success I've had. And then the trick for me is making sure that I'm taking the time out to spend with my family, to spend with my loved ones, to really connect with my sense of the sacred and the divine, and making sure that I'm not running myself into the ground, chasing the next thing and learning to be content with what I have and being grateful. Gratitude really is the thing that I find I have to work on the most so that I can feel grateful for each day and for all the blessings in my life without feeling like I need to be on this hamster wheel of performance for other people or for some voice in my head that's telling me I'm not good enough and really understanding that all of us have an intrinsic worth that's independent of anything that we achieve and being able to tap into that, regardless of how many curveballs life throws my way.

Speaker C: Doug, what's one lasting message you want to leave our listeners with?

Speaker A: I want to leave them with the understanding that, uh, if you. When you understand how your personality is structured and the Enneagram is one very helpful tool. It's not the only tool, but I want them to be curious about how you can live a life that, like, back that one up. Here's maybe the biggest lesson I'VE learned from the Enneagram is that every time I have hurt someone unintentionally or someone has hurt me, we were inevitably acting out the worst elements of our Enneagram, type of the shadow structure of our personality. And when you understand that this is how suffering gets transmitted through the world through, uh, really a lack of understanding of what's driving you and what's driving others, then it's a great tool for relieving the suffering in your personal life, but also in your business and in your financial life. So that's really the message. It's almost. There's a moral imperative, I think, for people to understand this work because not only will it relieve suffering for yourself, but it will prevent you from transmitting your pain and transmitting your suffering unintentionally or, uh, unconsciously onto others, especially in how you use and spend your wealth.

Speaker C: And if people want more of you, certainly they can buy your books. If they wanted more of you in terms of contacting you, how would you like them to go about doing that?

Speaker A: Yeah, if you're interested in my investment, obviously I'm an investment advisor that I do a lot of work with clients, helping them build really strong portfolios and financial planning. You can reach me at Course Management Investment Advisors in Pinehurst, North Carolina. I'll put the. I'll send you a link. You can put that in the show notes and. And then anyone who would like help with individual coaching or work what we do, a workshop for your business or your event, you can go to my website, which is douglineham.com and I'll put that. Give you those links to put in the show notes as well.

Speaker C: Doug, uh, thank you for joining us.

Speaker A: Thank you so much, guys. Appreciate the conversation. Thanks, Doug.

Speaker B: Stay tuned as John and Rich unpack today's conversation.

Speaker C: John, I got exposed to the enneagram in 2012 and it was actually from Rich Wilson.

Speaker B: Oh, really?

Speaker C: Former, uh, podcast guest of ours and unfortunately has passed now. And that is one of the things that he brought to my life that continues to endure and make a difference. I probably think about the idea that I'm a type 2 at least a couple times a month, every single month. And think about the upside levels and the downside levels of being a type 2. And there's some complexity in the Enneagram, but it has so much information in it as a type 2 and an upside level, I integrate and take on aspects of the upside level of a type 4, and then as a downside level when I'm operating in that way, As a type 2, I take on some of the downside levels of a type. So it's. Oh, uh, seeing all of this play out in this conversation, uh, my heart was singing with some of the things he was saying. I've never thought about it paired up with wealth either. What a genius move.

Speaker B: You obviously know a lot more about this than I have. This is the first time I ever heard of the concept. So if you're listening to this and you're like me, hey, I'm in the same boat. Never heard of Enneagram. And the fact that he came up with the connection to money, I actually thought the whole, most of the conversation I thought that's what Enneagram was, a connection of egos to money. I didn't realize that it was two separate things. Yeah, uh, ego profiling kind of methodology. And he made the connection to money. And what's cool about it is it connects to everything. It connects to the people you interact with. Your loved ones, your people on your team, your customers. It connects all across the board. And uh, the connection to money I thought was really interesting. And I do feel that a lot of times people do have this large discomfort with money, with managing it. I know people that manage their health so tight or their business so tight, but can't manage their money. I know people that manage their money so tight but can't manage anything else. I know the other way around. And what I thought was fascinating in this conversation too was as he was talking about level two and level three. And I think you pre profiled me as a level three, which I thought was interesting before we hit record. And I was. So I'm listening. Okay, what's level three? And so I'm trying to see myself. It's just interesting to see yourself in these profiles and question. Oh, really? And uh, I'll share this with you, Rich, during this conversation because, um, he's a level three. Doug says he's level three. And I don't know for sure, but I believe based on your thoughts, that I'm potentially level three as well. It was interesting just to think about how having a clear life plan for me has helped me in my, my ego in terms of not chasing things and over building things and overachieving on things. No, uh, this is what I'm going to do. And giving me kind of the guardrails. I never looked at it that way until this conversation. How much time I spent thinking about how important having a life plan kind of gave me some sense of direction and purpose and, and it Connected me to a little bit to what he was talking about when you asked him what success looked like for him. Uh, in terms of, hey, I've experienced some success and I have gratitude for what I have and I'm clear on what I want. And although kind of brings it all together. So that was a pretty cool way for me to kind of see myself through Doug's lens a little bit. Being that we potentially are both threes

Speaker C: and without a lot of time to reflect on it. Uh, you don't need to weigh in on yes or no, of course, unless the answer is yes. Uh, but as a type 3, the core fear is being worthwhile, being worthless, And the drive can be. Can overcompensate to demonstrate worth. As a type 2, for me, the core fear is being unlovable. And the drive to want to be lovable can be over expressed and then actually make me unlovable. And then your drive to achieve can actually go into overdrive and then actually make you not achieve as much. Ultimately. Yeah. This is the interesting dynamics of it. And he tied it back to, uh, childhood stuff. I've done some thinking about this myself, obviously having been exposed to it now, gosh, 14 years ago for mine, mine was formed at the age of 3 or 4 years old when my mom had cancer for the first time. And my dad tells me it was the first time in my life that. And the only time in my life that I developed a stutter was a time where she was in and out of the hospital. I think it was four or five times. And I have no memory of it whatsoever. But the fact that I developed a stutter at that time, it was obviously impacting me. And I think about, gosh, as a three year old, when your mom leaves, what did she say before she went in the hospital? At the time, cancer was a death sentence. Yeah. Uh, so what did she say? What was that last hug like before she went in the hospital? What did she not say? That I could interpret. And then she came back, big celebration. I'm sure we had cake and mom's back and everything's good. And then it came back, uh, and she went, what did she say the second time? What'd my dad say when I said, when's mom coming home? And he didn't know if she was. And this happened four or five times at the age of three, four years old. So I can only imagine and attach the dots around what did I interpret about love and connection and my worthiness? Somehow that has developed into. As a type 2, I'm um, the helper. I want to do things. I help people. Yes. But in part because I think I'll be more lovable if I do.

Speaker B: It certainly speaks to the fact that when you're that age, most of our development happens in those formative years, those early years, and there's nothing you can do to change that.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: You sometimes are born into it or you're living the situation that you're given. You're living it. Right. But at this point, as you get into your adult life and where we are in our lives, to really understand it at the level that Doug talks about it is very powerful. Like the way you were talking about, the way that you think about it now, and the way you process it. It's so helpful for you to make sure that you have the right guardrails for how you're trying to live your life today in the most positive and forward moving way. And just so that that knowledge is power comes to mind. Uh, and so this is something I got to go really to school on myself because this is something new like that the whole Enneagram component is just new to me. I never really spent any time looking into it. And you know that I have this passion for finances and money and everything else. So I want to go connect these dots as quickly as possible so I can understand how I can make sure I embrace it and know how to have guardrails around the bad sides of it and also how to empower the good sides of it. So I love this conversation with Doug and can't wait to learn more.

Speaker C: Yeah, one of the, uh, one of the guardrails, I'll tell you that the Enneagram taught me is before really putting myself out, potentially overextending myself on the helping side, is asking, am I expecting anything in return? M. So am I actually doing it for them? Or I'm doing it for a thank you. Am I doing it because I want to be appreciated? Am I doing it because it'll make me look good or feel good? Or am I actually doing it for them? And I wouldn't be asking that question today if Rich Wilson didn't introduce this to me 14 years ago. So I'm very thankful. Last, uh, thing I'll close on quote of the day from Doug. I love it. If you don't have it written down, you're going to want to. Money is how we put our values into action. Mic drop. Money is how we put our values into action. I think that is so true.

Speaker B: Love it. I did miss it. The first time, but I got it down now. Can't wait to read his books, learn more, and thanks for joining us on this week's episode of the Entrepreneurs United Podcast.