The Marketing Mistake You’re Making That’s Killing Your Business

Speaker A: If I get a young kid, and we've got six millennials ourselves, so therefore, the kids will. God, that was so yesterday. I said. And I bring the book up. And I said, it doesn't matter that back in the day that I did this, it might have been television and radio and magazine. Now it's Facebook and it's LinkedIn. Same principle. It doesn't matter. The ideas have not changed. It's just a communication platform, that's all.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, like, you keep seeing so many people now that the kind of young, younger people of. Of today, the kind of teenagers and what have you, they keep talking about, you've got to have hooks. You got to hook people in the first five seconds. I'm reading Craw Hopkins book, 1923. It was written. And he keeps talking about the hook. The hook, the hook, the hook. This is not a new principle. It's not like all of a sudden, somebody's all of a sudden found the, uh. They've invented electricity. It's been around for forever. Right. That's the way business was always done.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But because they've listened to Frank Kern or Russell, uh, Brunson or any of the cool kids at lunchtime, they've come up with phrases that if they looked at those books from 50 or 100 years ago, it's the same thing. Exactly. All that's happened is the communication platform has changed. Simple as that. Yeah.

Speaker B: I spent a long period of time, like, basically analyzing in really gory detail that whole information product sales process. The way it was all packaged. Right. There was almost. It was like a cartel. Right. You mentioned Frank Kern. Uh, he was. He was involved with it. There was a guy who sadly has died now called Andy Jenkins. He was part of it. Right. A guy called Mike Phil. Same Rich Sheffrin. I mean, there was a kind of big group of people, and they just, um. I mean, they took it in turns to come out with a new information product. Right. That was, to all intents and purposes, a repurposed version of the same thing that they'd done previously. There was a guy called Jeff Walker who is like the mastermind behind the kind of the product launch formula, Right. Where he said, you do these sort of four live events which lead up to the launch of the product itself. And ultimately, what you do is you build up your list, right? So then you have a great list. You obviously make a lot of sales. You have a lot of people that promote your list. They're the other people in the group, Right. And they take it in turns to do the launch, right? So ultimately what will happen is I'll have the best list, right? So the next person down is going to be the next person to have the product coming out. So they spend time producing their product, right? So they mail that. They mail it. They get a ton of sales, they make their money that way. All the incidentals, the people in the sort of second, third tier, they make their money but in the process of doing that they obviously lose some people off their list because people go, I don't want that. So they unsubscribe, right? And ultimately the kind of, the person at the bottom, it's the bottom end of the list is the, the person who has just had the launch, but they've got the biggest list. So they do okay. And eventually what happens is they bubble their way back up to the top. And it used to just be in this sort of cycle, right? But they were regurgitating the same thing over and over again, but just calling it something different, right? They had all these kind of great cool names for, for what was Frank

Speaker A: Kern had Mass Control and then it was Mass Control 2.0. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And, and, and again they, they would, from time to time they would invite people into the, to the cartel. And, and, and I think that the one that kind of got me was there was a guy who was sort of uh, a big affiliate marketer guy called Jeremy Shoemaker, his name was Shoemoney, who saw himself as a big deal. And, and again he, he wanted to break into that cartel, right? So eventually they invited him in. So he brought his big list of people that he had, but they never really, I don't think he ever got to the point where he bubbled his way to the top of the list where he was the guy who had the product. He just promoted other people's stuff along the way and then probably burnt his list. In the process of doing that, I've. I found myself taking part in some sort of mastermind type events. You get invited along, you pay a bunch of m money to go to them, right? And you, you're the person that ends up. People end up talking to you and stealing what. When I'm thinking, hang on, I paid to be here and I'm giving away all of the stuff that I, you know, that I have. I mean like I again, I would pull up a laptop, show people some of the things that we were doing in online advertising and paid marketing and that sort of thing. And people were like, this is, this is very different than most of the stuff that we see when we go to talk to other people. And again, people always go, I got a Facebook rep or I got a Google Ads rep. And it's. Yeah, but I just think if you, if you, unless you're in the trenches doing this stuff day to day, you don't really understand some of the nuances and the real great things that push you over the top and really make the difference to what's going on. I mean you've, I've always said my, my battle is to try and understand. I mean, yes, Google and Facebook and everyone provide me great platforms with which to do the work. So I've always maintained I've got a mutual hate, hate relationship with, right? I hate them, they hate me. But we have to collaborate because I need them and, and really they need me, right? I can bring advertisers to them, right, that they may not necessarily have otherwise. A lot of people become very sort of platform centric. They might go, I'm only going to run on Google or I'm only going to run on Microsoft, right? Or, um, I'm only going to run on Facebook or I'm only going to run LinkedIn and I can bring an omnichannel vision to it and say, well look, I can bring you a different vision to how this might play out, right? So I'm bringing new advertisers, Net new advertisers to their platform, which makes a huge difference to their overall bottom line. So they appreciate that. But at the same time I think they want to obviously then try and force their way upon the advertisers I bring to the table. I'm like, it doesn't work that way.

Speaker A: No, of course not.

Speaker B: Uh, I've done uh, a fair bit of speaking at events where you go to like keynotes and things like that. And the uh, event organizer, they might do like a uh, a, uh, speaker's dinner, right? You go along to the speaker's dinner. You're expected to go along to the speaker's dinner. I always used to, because again to me it's, it's more, it's more than just me standing on stage. It's about the whole experience or of accessibility, as you say, accessibility to me of the people in the audience that may have specific things because I never know what I'm um, delivering a presentation that covers a broad brush topic. But they may have specific questions that they have about their business that I didn't answer on stage at that particular point in time and they want to come and ask me that, so what, what. What I found was that some of the events that I went to the speaker, they had this speaker's dinner. And then on occasions what they would do is they would open it up so that if you wanted to pay maybe another thousand dollars for a ticket, you could actually attend one of the speakers dinners. So you got the opportunity to kind of sit and have a meal with the speakers. So it was a more of an informal environment. But I've also been to events where there would be a, uh, speaker's dinner. Right. Where speakers were expected to go, but the speakers themselves had a different kind of agenda and they would organize their own dinners for their own kind of VIP people, peel them all off. So the people that, uh, paid $1,000 expecting to see all of the kind of the keynote speakers and what have you, would find that half of them weren't actually at this dinner. So again, I would feel very put out if I dropped a grand on a ticket for a meal, probably cost 50, 80 bucks or whatever. And the rest was on the meet and greet and the kind of the access m. Accessibility. And there was no accessibility. Right.

Speaker A: Uh, and how hard is it to enjoy a dinner and talk to a few people? Pretty easy. Yeah.

Speaker B: But, but I think a lot of, a lot of people let the, their own ego and self importance put them on a pedestal above everyone that kind of is in that audience. I mean, I know I've come from a very humble sort of business starting point. Right. Certainly when I got into digital marketing, I was this close to bankruptcy through no fault of mine. But it was like when you've got to that point where you're on the verge of having absolutely nothing at all, you appreciate every single dollar that you make from that point forward.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And you understand the value of money far better than I think a lot of people do. Right. And you also understand the value of relationships far better than most people do.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because you realize, uh, how, how important they can be to your overall kind of good, good goodwill and health and, and well being, but also your financial good health and wellbeing as well.

Speaker A: So you did. Right? No, you did. My story mirrors yours. I mean, we've been there too. I mean, when you're an entrepreneur, there's no such thing as the merry go round as the roller coaster up and down.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, and I think it's, it's, it's very interesting that a lot of people, they only ever talk about their successes. And I always kind of like liken it to gamblers. Gamblers Only ever tell you about their big wins. Uh, they never tell you big. About the big losses and the having to borrow money to get a taxi home because they've spent every single penny they've got. I mean, I used to one of my first jobs when I grew up in sort of Hong Kong. So I lived in Hong Kong for 20 years and then I came back to the UK in the sort of mid-80s. And one of the first jobs I had was I worked as a. I really. I was really into horse racing in Hong Kong, right? It's a big thing in Hong Kong. Huge, huge, huge thing. The Hong Kong Jockey Club. So I was really into horse racing. Had a lot of friends that were jockeys and trainers and what have you and footballers. Because I was a kind of a footballer back in the day. And what was really interesting is that a lot of the, uh, kind of that industry was. Again, it was just fascinating. There's lots of tipsters and TV pundits and what have you. And obviously when I came back to the uk, I thought maybe I can get a job working in. In a bookies, right? So I got a job working for Ladbrokes, which is a kind of big bookies over here. And what was really interesting is that, like, what would happen is you would. I worked in a place called Slough, which is. Anyone that's watched the UK version of the office, it's very famous for that. That's where the, uh, Ricky Gervais's office was based. So Slough was where I was and it's where the Mars company had their factory, right? So every time I would go to the Office, all I could smell was Mars bars, right? It was just a horrible smell. But. But a lot of the people that used to come to my. My shop, they were people who worked in factories nearby. It was a big industrial estate nearby. And we was like Chinese restaurant one side, pub the other, right? So we had all Italian restaurants. So everything was. Was geared up to the people who would gamble in. In bookies. So Chinese big gamblers, Italians big gamblers, right? People that worked in factories, big gamblers and, um, people. And what would happen is people would come into the bookies, they would come in on a, say, Thursday with their pay packets. It used to be in the olden days, it was a pay packet with cash in it. They would tear the kind of the strip off the top. They would put a couple of bets on, go to the pub pissed, right? Then come back, see how their horses or dogs or whatever it was that they'd bet on did, right? They'd win, they'd lose, or what have you. And again, I would have. I would see situations where people would tear open that pay packet, which was their pay packet for the whole week, and they would basically spend the whole thing in one hit in the pub and in the bookies. And I remember one, one particular day, I was in the shop, this woman came in and she said, I want my money back. I said, what do you mean? She goes, my husband's been in your bloody shop. And he spent all my money. He got three kids at home. I can't feed them. I don't know what I'm gonna do. And I said, look, listen, I really, really, I sympathize with your situation, and I can't imagine what that must be like. But if he had come into my shop and won a ton of money, right, and I had to come knocking on your door and said, he was pissed, he shouldn't have been in there. He spent all. He spent all his money. You would not give me the time of day. So it kind of like it. It swings both ways.

Speaker A: Good analogy.

Speaker B: And that's. That was always the challenge, right? And it was always one of those things. There was a lot of aggression in there. I mean, I, um, watched people have fingers chopped off because of bites. And it was just like a horrible environment to be in. But. But again, a sort of a fascinating environment to see just the type of people. I mean, like, we had the big race in the UK called the grand national, and you. On Grand National Day, it would be the biggest betting day in the whole of the uk. We used to take crazy amounts of money in the shop for, again, for the mid-80s. It was an insane amount of money that we used to take over the counter. And it was one of those things, if you, if you actually look at it in the cold, harsh light of day, the whole thing of the betting on it is completely stacked in the favor, much as we were talking about the. The whole genius network. And it's stacked in the favor of the people that, like, at, uh, the high echelons, make all the money. And the people at the bottom are the ones that. The stupid ones that pay for it. And it's the same thing in that sort of betting sphere. The bookies are the ones that are making tons and tons of money because they've stacked the book against you making any money. And they're going to make all the money regardless of who you win. So it's like 40, right? 40 horses in the race, they couldn't give a monkeys in most cases. I think there might be one or two years where there's been one or two horses that has cost them a bit of money. But generally speaking, that's the race they love because they make the most money. Because it's stacked, all the odds are stacked in their favor. But I would have, on that particular day, some people will come up and go. I mean, bearing in mind it's a 4 1/2 mile steeplechase race that usually takes about 9 minutes to run and it's 30 fences or something. I mean, the fall rate is really high. If the weather's bad, it's even higher, right? You can have a stray horse run in front of you. So even if you're on, the best horse ever always jumps around perfectly, could be taken down. You could unseat the rider because it just puts its foot in a hole or something like that. So there's so many things can go wrong. But I had, in one particular year out, uh, of the 40 horses that were in it, 35 people came up and said, jim, this person, this horse is going to win the race, right? 35 different horses. And I'm like, okay, whatever you say, that's fine.

Speaker A: But again, you should bring that story up, Jim, because my wife must have drawn a short straw. Her father was a compulsive gambler and lost three houses when they were growing up, all on the horses. And then she marries an entrepreneur and of course, like yourself, we've had a roller coaster ride. So I said to her, you must have just chosen the short straw.

Speaker B: Yeah. And again, I think the thing with business now, right, And I think a lot of, I think a lot of the reason. I mean, I see so many people who are parallaxed by the fear of failure that they just don't make a decision to do anything at all, right? They sit in a job that they hate, right? Earning a pay packet that they think they're worth more. And m. Again, if you think it worth more, you've got to go and fight for it, right? You're just not going to get it. I mean, people talk about paid a bunch of money as well. Sometimes you don't necessarily get paid it.

Speaker A: You.

Speaker B: I. I think you need to earn it, right? I mean, a lot of people don't earn the money they get paid. They get paid money, but they don't necessarily earn it, right?

Speaker A: I mean, take the public service, for example.

Speaker B: Yeah, but, but again, I think to go back to, to your sort of background in marketing and sales. I mean, your business is the Institute of Wow, right? I mean, how did you come up with that as the name? I mean, to me it's like. I think it's a phenomenal name. How did you come up?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, we wanted the wow Institute, but it was all gone. Even when we get set this up, whatever it was many years ago, but the wow Institute was gone. That would have been easier to pronounce. But, uh, yeah, look, it's only because when you say something that's ATT, whether that's a Happy Meal toy at McDonald's, your answer is going to be, oh, wow.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's interesting. I mean, I always like. I always, I, uh, like to tell stories. Right. I think that's one of the reasons I said, I think a lot of people like sitting there having a drink with me because I've got a lot of stories. Right. So some people go, oh, I don't have any stories. I'm like, well, you probably do. You just don't know necessarily how to tell them. Right. So I think most people have stories, they just don't really know how to convey them in a way that kind of makes them entertaining. Right. I think sometimes you have to add an element of flair and charisma to it and everything else dead.

Speaker A: Right. You mentioned Ricky Gervais before, and I mean, that's what he excels at. He tells great stories.

Speaker B: Yeah. Just. Yeah. So I, I think to going back again, going back to the sort of late 80s, early 90s, I, I went through this phase where I used to go nightclubbing a lot. I used to enjoy it. I used to enjoy dancing, drinking. And one particular night I'd gone to, to this club and, and this club was in a place called Maidenhead, and in, in the uk, sort of fairly close to where I lived. And they happened to have the. And it's in a sort, uh, of county called Berkshire. So they happened to be having a Miss Berkshire competition on, in this club that night. So they had obviously the MC who was interviewing them and they had the sort of swimsuit and they had the, the evening dress and everything else. So I was stood at the top of the stairs as these girls were coming out to, to go on to, to do their bit. Right. And then I'm just stood there just going, you look very nervous. You'll, uh, be fine. Don't worry. You'll be absolutely fine. Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. So I'm literally just, again, I'm talking to these girls and uh, my friends going, what are you doing?

Speaker A: What are you doing?

Speaker B: Are you talking to these girls? I'm like, they're just people, right? And he, uh, goes, yeah, yeah, but they're in this competition and they're beautiful and, you know, you're ugly. And I'm like, doesn't matter. And, and, and, and what was really interesting is that the girl who, who ultimately ended up winning the competition, right, so she won the competition and she was there. I think her, her sister was with her. I think even her mum and dad were there, right? So she was sitting at a table. She's got this sort of tiara from winning the, the thing. She's got the sash over her head. And at the end of the, the evening, in, in the club, they happened to do the last sort of 15, 20 minutes of the evening. They put on slow dances. So I just thought, you know what? She's sitting over there, beautiful girl, she just won this competition. I thought, I'm gonna go over and ask her if she wants to dance. And my friend goes, don't be silly. There's no way she'll dance with you. So I just, I said, look, just watch. So I literally, I walked over, right, held my hand out like that to her and just said, do you want to dance? And she looks up and she goes, yeah, I'd love to dance. So she got up and had a dance and we had a good old dance around. And she said, well, it's really good. I'm really pleased that you came over. Cause I was sitting there talking to my mum and dad. I felt a bit strange kind of being there, that they're in a club where I could normally be having a great fun. I say, yeah, it's fine. I mean, I think they're obviously very proud of you. You've done well to get to this and hope you do well. Because obviously they go on to then become a contestant in the Miss England competition, I think. So it's just like a progression. And my friend goes, well, you know, you know, what, what did you do that for? I said, well, the worst that could happen was she'd say, no. I mean, that was it. I mean, there was, There was never. She wasn't insulting me. Bugger off, piss off. Whatever. Even, even she'd have said that still. No, it doesn't matter. And I've always been amazed at how many people are frightened to make a decision to do something right for fear of failure, feel of rejection, feel of. And I'm like, well, the worst that can happen is nothing will happen or people will say no to you.

Speaker A: Um, and I'm just.

Speaker B: Again, I'm amazed how many people are stuck in a job they hate, frightened to leave. I won't be able to find another job as well. Unless you try, you'll never know.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I mean, your answer could have easily been to your buddies at the time. Look, I wasn't gonna lose an arm or a leg. It was just a no. And my six millennials that I've got, they've all got their own jobs and careers these days, but I just tried to encourage them to. And a couple of them have got their own jobs. One is an accountant and. And he's doing very well, and the other one likewise. And I just say to them, look, jump. I mean, make sure you've got a safety net under you, because unfortunately, I wasn't smart enough to do that when we had some failures. But, I mean, make sure that you're not stupid about it. But just jump, Give it a shot. And I can't say there's anything wrong with that advice. Again, not to jump if it's something stupid. Yeah, but just give it a shot.

Speaker B: Yeah. And obviously don't put everything on the line. Don't mortgage your house to do a red or black on the casino wheel or something like that. I mean, that's crazy. But. But, yeah, but I mean, I think. I think if you have a strong idea again, talk to somebody that can help you. Just be a bit of a sounding board, devil's advocate, call it what you want, say, what do you think? And again, they might give you some good advice. Again, I've had some. What I thought was great ideas, bounced them off people I considered to be mentors to me, and they've gone, Jim, that's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life. I'm like, okay, I'm glad I came and talked to you about it, because I could have gone and thrown it equally. There are times when I haven't spoken to anyone and I've launched something and it's been a complete and abject failure. And I just, again, I call it a failure. It's like I just know something else not to do, not to try. So for me, it's just, again, I think some of it is just. It's the whole experience of learning as you go along. Right. I mean, the whole point of becoming a podcaster wasn't because I wanted to go, and I'm going to go and try and take on Joe Rogan. It's just. I just wanted to try it and see what. See what it was like and see if it was any. See if I was good at it, see if it was fun. It's a lot of fun. I love doing it. It's great. I've had some phenomenal guests, including yourself. And, and for me, that's. That's what it's about. It's about having a conversation with somebody. In a lot of cases, when, When I first started, I just chose the people who I knew, people that. From when. Within my existing circle of connections. But what I've done now is I've cast that net much, much wider and further. And. And that's how I came across yourself. I mean, I. Again, we'd never met before. We connected on that zoom call for the very first time. And again, I feel like. I feel we could be sitting here with a couple of beers and having a good old chat and, and going out for. For an evening on. On the tiles in the.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's what, that's what, that's what, That's. That's what makes a good podcast. If it's. If it's not fake and it's just having a beer with a mate across the table, that. That's why it's successful. And in your instance, you're very down to earth. And people say to me, what do you mean down to earth? I said, well, Steve Irwin, the Crocodile Hunter here in Australia, who unfortunately passed away, but I mean, he was down to earth. Uh, Paul Hogan, the actual. The other Crocodile Dundee guy, and people like that who are down to earth. I mean, even Ricky Gervais, he appears to be. When he's off doing. Not doing shows, but he seems to be down to everybody. Uh, they're attracted to people who are down to earth. So that's why you've got a successful podcast, I'm sure.

Speaker B: Yeah. And interestingly enough, I mean, as much as Ricky Gervais jokes about his wealth now, I mean, he's. He's definitely not forgotten his humble roots. Right. Where he came from. He's not. Never forgotten any of that at all. Right. Which I think is a good thing. Right.

Speaker A: I love the gag that I saw him do where he said, oh, minority groups. There's all these people out there that are saying that they're in a minority group and they don't get treated properly because they might be transsexual or what have you. He said, I'm in the smallest minority group in the world, 1% of millionaires. And he said, we don't get treated properly either. He said, how do you think I, so I'll try and make, I'll try and make my answers to whatever questions you have as interesting as possible so that you keep your audience, but I'll give it my best shot.

Speaker B: Uh, well, you, you've done a phenomenal job thus far. I mean for me it's again, I, I, I, I, I tend to like record my episodes in, in and then just pick the sort of salient bits from the conversations as we go along. And uh, and that kind of constitutes what, what ends up the uh, the final end, end item that we have. I've, I've looked at it. I, I see a lot of people that podcasting now and they're actually finding some success with doing live podcasts where they take it out on the road and they go and go into an arena and they have the microphones on stage and everything else. And I keep thinking, uh, would I want to do that? I mean, for me part of it would be again, I've been in bars before where I'm talking to people. Again, they're not necessarily people from my circle of industry connections and what have you, but again, just randos. I mean I, I used to say people, I, I remember sitting in a bar at something like 4 in the morning. I was on stage at 9:30 the next morning. I'm sitting in a bar with a guy with one leg, a gay guy and a cowboy and none of whom I knew and none of, none of whom were from, from my industry. And I'm going, this is as random as it gets. Right? I mean, but, but for me it was the fascinating conversation. And I mean, I think again, a lot of it was they, they were, they had nothing in common with each other, nothing in common with me. But because of that we were, the thing we had in common was we were in that bar at that given point in time. And I think sometimes it's, it's just that sort of the uh, opportunity to take advantage of your proximity to a particular situation and knowing how to, how to turn it into something that can be of value, right. Without uh, coming across as salesy. So maybe, maybe you can kind of like answer that in terms of how do you do that? How do you not be the dick that kind of stands there and turn something into a sales, sales, sales, sales, sales, sales, like right from the get go.

Speaker A: Oh, uh, look, I think it's pretty straightforward. You just make sure that you tell the failures as much as you highlight the wins because, uh, There's a lot of, I mean, I've got my 25 year old. I decided to go to the New York Film Academy because every 20 somethings, they all want to be videographers. And I told him some stories about how fake the seminar industry is. And they brought these people up on stage showing the Miss World wife and the Maseratis and all of that. Of course they've got nothing in the bank, but it's all a show. And when I got on the seminar circuit, I saw that loud and clear. And so he came home one night, uh, and he said to me, oh, dad, I came first in the class at the New York Film Academy for coming up with a new sitcom. I said, oh, okay, well, what was that? He said, look, it's based on the premise of the Office, but given all the stories you've given me over the years about the fake seminar speakers, it's called the Seminar. And I went, oh no. And that cannot hit the TV screen or YouTube because these people will know where it came from. Because the actual show was about someone who was outside of the seminar industry in the corporate world, came into the seminar industry and then realized that a lot of them were fake. And I said, no, no, you can't let this happen. And I was only joking because obviously I'd support him in whatever he wants to do. So he's in the process at the moment of putting together some scripts and one of them has the seminar speaker up the front writing on a whiteboard, S C A M. Okay, but it stands for super community of advertisers and marketers.

Speaker B: But it's really spell scattered like it.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think given that, I think most people would recognize that the seminar industry, or what we call the consultancy or the, the information marketing industry has got a few cowboys in it. I think if you're in that game and sounds like you are, and I am, then yeah, to combat that skepticism, you've just got to be real. You've got to tell them that your wins are just real.

Speaker B: But I think I, I think for me it's, it's uh, again, I think sometimes the, the people who are selling, I mean, again, I, I know it sounds like we've been bashing some of the people that have come out with these information products. I think, I think the reality of it is, is that if people got it, I mean, again, I, I bought some of these before. Again, just out of curiosity. Not necessarily because I thought, wow, there's going to be all this new stuff in there. I just Wanted again, I wanted to see what the packaging looked like, the kind of behind, see what it was like behind the scenes. And, and what was really interesting to me was it was really well written, well put together, comprehensive. Right. I mean again, in the early days it was like a big box of CDs and whatever else rather than now. It would just be delivered, you know, digitally completely, which again reduces the kind of, the cost of friction. But it also makes it much easier for people to come up with a competing product like right out the gates and also to, to steal things. Right. But, but I think it's what, what for me was quite interesting is the reason that I think so many people fail. Right. I mean I know that the, the kind of chargeback rate or the refund rate was really high for some of these information products, right? Because people go uh, well I, I got it. And, and um, nothing happened. It's. Oh yeah, but what did you actually do with the information? Right? Because I think that's the, the thing. It's not just a case of getting the information, it's actually having a plan of what to do with it once you actually have it. And I think that's the bit that I think a lot of people struggle with. So what, what are your thoughts around? Should it just be the information product itself? Should there be some sort of community that goes with it? Whether it's a kind of Facebook group or a Slack or something that, that kind of gives people an element of community, like people that they can bounce ideas off, like they can pair up with. I mean again, I've always said it's just about facilitation, right? You need to be there to help facilitate, facilitate these relationships taking place. So again, if you're a uh, person that does one thing and you need a videographer, then this person does videography, then you should talk to them and you can do something collaboratively, right? And it's something that they'll benefit from earning some money from you and you'll benefit from getting their expertise from them and everyone wins as a result of that. So what are your thoughts in terms of that?

Speaker A: To answer that question though, in terms of my view on the coaching consulting world for small to medium sized business, it's tough because there's only a percentage of small to medium sized businesses that can implement. And what I found throughout the 10 years we've been involved in smaller businesses is that the butcher, baker, candlestick maker is normally a husband and wife business and they might have one or two or five staff, but they Just don't have time to implement the stuff that I'd give them. I could give them any one of a number of things through this gigantic dossier of, uh, direct response marketing.

Speaker B: What does that cost to buy by the way, just out of curiosity?

Speaker A: Well, to print this cost $420 a book just to print. So what I do is that I actually, when people join the program, I just give them this. And these days, obviously we've got a digital version so we can handle that virtually for free. But in the days that we were selling like annual coaching program, I would give this to it. It's leather bound and it's got the gold chipped edges and all of that. And seriously, although I'm sounding a bit like a wanker at the moment, but inside here I didn't put the ones that failed and there was plenty of them by the way. But I put all the winning marketing campaigns in there and it's everything from the million, million dollar giveaways with Lloyds of London insuring the prize to the puppy dog sale for the pet shop through to scratch bingos and all sorts of different things in there. And over the years, because I've done all this stuff with McDonald's and KFC and 711 and all these businesses, there's quite a number of, well, not quite a number. There's a massive number of case studies in there that people can just rip off or should I say ethically swipe. But I came to the conclusion a few years ago that it was almost impossible to expect that the small business owners were going to implement the ideas that I would give them, even down to the stage whereby they won't collect data. I can guarantee, Jim, that you can go to any restaurant in the world and you can spend two or three hundred dollars there with your wife tonight and they will not get your details. Okay. Uh, even though, uh, Amazon has been around for a long while and it's taught everyone the value of data, you can go to, go to McDonald's. McDonald's don't care who you are, they don't collect any data. KFC doesn't collect any data. And the crazy thing about the world that we live in is hardly anyone but Amazon and a few online smarties collect data. It's absolutely crazy. The butcher that you go to to get your stake, he doesn't collect any data.

Speaker B: And if you think about it, I mean, again, so I know that McDonald's have like uh, a sort of loyalty program where you can scan a QR code and everything else Again, if you think about it, like, if I go to McDonald's, which I don't. I tend not to now, right. I used to go there quite a bit from time to time. But when I would go to McDonald's, I'd always have exactly the same thing, right? Because I enjoyed the things that I would have. I'd always have a Big Mac. I'd always have medium fries. I'd always have a drink. And quite often I would go. I'd either have a McFish or some chicken nuggets, and that would be what I would have every time I went. And you would think they would go, oh, this is Jim. This is his typical order. They could always go, same again. I'd be like, same again. It would be much easier for me.

Speaker A: Not only that, Jim. And we've got the only restaurant as a client. The only restaurant in the world is full with 150 seats every night of the year. So 365 nights a year, this client of ours is full. And it's very, very simple. He was spending $750,000 a year on radio and television and Facebook and so forth. And he came to one of my seminars, and he liked what he heard, and he came up at the end of it and joined the program. And I said to him, well, let's get rid of that $750,000 expense that you're giving to Zuckerberg and other people, and I'll show you how to fill your restaurant every single night of the year. And he said, we got 150 seats. I said, yep, that's fine. Now, he's a seafood restaurant called the Lobster Cave, and he's, uh, in Melbourne, Australia, and it's an upmarket seafood restaurant. So Therefore, you're talking BMWs and Mercedes are parked outside, right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so, therefore, doing the radio advertising and TV advertising in the greater area of Melbourne was absolutely ridiculous, because his target audience were about three or four miles around his restaurant. That were the rich people. And I said to them, all you would do is that we'll actually get your waitresses to simply put a little name and address paper. Not an app, not a QR code, uh, just a little name and address, a bit about the size of maybe an ace of diamonds. And it said, win dinner for 10 of your friends at the end of the month and put your name and details in. The only detail we were really interested in, of course, was the mobile cell number, the phone number. And so what happens is that every afternoon, he still does it. Now, this was some Years ago, but he still does it now. He just simply, he gives the girls, uh, all the guys 50 cents for every name and address, contact detail they get. So when the waitress comes up to give you the check at the end of the meal, and there's four or five of you that have had a dinner for lunch, it might be a business luncheon, she puts four or five of these entry forms in front of you and invites you to actually fill them in to have the chance to win dinner for 10 of your friends. She stands there whilst they get the pen out and put it in. She's not gonna miss out on 50 cents. 50 cents, 50 cents, 50 cents.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: As it found out, he's got 92,000 on that list. Now it's a few years down, but he's got 92,000 which is a pretty decent database for a restaurant. Every afternoon at 3 o' clock he sends out a text message and I've given him 20, 25 text messages. And that text message goes out and says if it was myself and my wife it'd be. Hi John. Hey gal, it's Chef Pierre here from the Lobster Cave restaurant. Just wanted to let you know we have a special $68 deal tonight which is a lobster tail meal for two. Right. As it turns out, nobody leaves that restaurant for less than $204 a couple. That's the average. Right, so it's, that's, it's bait and switch.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a secret because again they'll have appetizers, they'll have bottles of wine, beers or whatever it might be, desserts, coffees, just adds to the, to the overall cost of it.

Speaker A: I mean, but the text message says that this offer ends in 10 minutes. And I had been there. He said to me his office is on top of the 155 seat restaurant. He said, JD, have a look how this works. And he calls in Marilyn, he's long suffering secretary. Cause she's a bit sarcastic like me. So she's had to put up with him. And he says, tell JD how many seats we've got booked tonight. She looks at her and says, oh, 78 or whatever it might be out of 150. He said, well you better send out JD's BS message number four. Cause I've given him like 20 of them. And that message goes out as I said, we've got a special deal tonight, but you got to get in the next 10 minutes. She walks in 10 minutes later and says we're booked out for and if they're not booked out. Then he sends out another 200 and another. He doesn't send out 92,000 every time. Obviously that wouldn't work. And he's booked out every single night of the year, does absolutely no advertising whatsoever because he's actually created an Amazon style list and then milks the crap out of that. And yet the thing that amazes me, absolutely amazes me whether I go into a coffee shop or a restaurant or a butcher or bakery, nobody, but nobody, but nobody clicks that crazy. And if they say to you, oh, but there's a QR code on the counter, nobody sees that. Unless McDonald's hands you something in paper, yes, old fashioned paper and says, here's a QR code, uh, put your name and address in to win a million dollars, you ain't going to walk up to the counter.

Speaker B: But equally, I mean, quite often it'll be leave us a review on TripAdvisor or whatever it might be. Which is fine, right? Again, don't get me wrong, I mean, I think having the ability to increase your, your sort of visibility and your competitiveness in the local landscape compared to other people that are in the same space as you is, is a good thing to do. Right? But, but at the same time, I mean, let's say I go, hey, here's a, here's a kind of QR code. Can you scan it? That will take you to the Google reviews and whatever else you're expecting to people to log into their Google account, put their name in, put all the sort of stuff that you've talked about and then leaving that actual written review and everything else. And most people go, you know what I don't want to do. But again, as you say, if they're on the database, once you've gone and got them, you could just send them a link to their text message and say can you leave us a review to Google when they've got home and they might be sitting at a desktop and they can do it in a much more efficient and effective way. I mean that whole thing with the paper. Genius, by the way. Again, if you listen to nothing else on this episode, listen to that. Play it back again. I talked to so many small local service based businesses that say I run a restaurant, struggling to fill it. That will probably be. Again, I don't even know what's on your list of things. I would probably say sign up for

Speaker A: one of JD seminars, that one doesn't come in the top 10. He says very boastfully. But let me give you one that for every Small business owner that might be listening to this, it's free of charge, and it will change your business overnight. And it's called the Facebook contest formula. And so therefore, there's a whole bunch of people out there giving Zuckerberg money for nothing. And the reason that. And Zuckerberg's not necessarily evil, it's just that your ads are evil and they're bad. I'll give you this is basically you giving away your product or service as a prize on Facebook and inviting people to win that prize by clicking the ad and going through to a landing page. And on that landing page, of course, you collect everything but their blood group. And the best example of that would be, for example, a dentist that came on board our thing about a few months ago. He said, look, I want to sell Invisalign, which are invisible braces, to children that have rich parents. In other words, he wants to sell them to rich parents. Because these things are five or six or seven thousand dollars a time, by the way. You need a payment plan to pay them off.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And he said, the reason I, uh, want parents is because they will spend more. Sorry, the reason I'm targeting children is because they will spend more money. Parents will spend more money on fixing their children's crooked teeth than their own. I said, okay, so therefore we ran a Facebook contest. Basically said, win for your child invisible braces to fix their crooked teeth. And he spent $30 a day on Facebook and got a thousand leads in the first week, had a thousand entries. So we're talking, well, uh,991, but let's just say a thousand. And then what happens is he rings them up the following week and says, look, got some good news and some bad news. Bad news is you didn't win the Invisalign braces, but obviously you've got a child with crooked teeth. You wouldn't enter a contest to win invisible braces if your child had perfect teeth. And this works for any product or service, by the way, mainly B2C. B2B is a bit different, but B2C, this is a winner for everyone. I mean, we've getting a thousand leads practically for every single client that's spending $30 a day in one week. 1,000 leads in one week. And if you're a lawnmower, you would just give away a month's worth of lawn mowing service. And of course, you know that whoever enters that contest is not living in an apartment. These are the leads. These are. Yeah, these are red hot leads. So what happens is that we have an association with a travel company that gives us a thousand dollars holiday voucher and we sell it to businesses for $50. So this will give you three nights accommodation anywhere in the UK, Scotland, right throughout Europe, America, you name it. And these hotels have given up their rooms for free to this travel partner that we have. And I've seen every travel scammer, this is not one of them, this is legit. And what happens is that the hotels are happy to give up their rooms for free in, ah, the hope that whoever stays there as a free guest will spend money on food and beverage. And so what happens is that we give these vouchers to the business for less than $50 each, which is 25 pounds. And so therefore, basically the business then rings up the people who didn't win, which is 99.9%. And it says, listen, you didn't win the invisible braces, but we've got a deal for you that obviously your child has crooked teeth. If you actually buy on our payment plan or not, by Friday we will give your family a free vacation. Yeah, shut the gate, it's all over. So, uh, you've got, you can, you've got your lead generator in terms of the contest and then you've got your conversion tool in terms of giving them a Happy Meal toy, which is the holiday to get them across the line. The conversion rates for this are running at around about 15 to 20%. And when they can't get to ring up all the thousand people because not many small businesses can, we just send in our AI robot and the robot gets a better conversion rate than the human, would you believe?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, I can absolutely believe it. And again, as you were talking, I'm thinking this is something that you could probably put some sort of like an AI dialer and kind of like some sort of chat bot that would automate that process to walk them through.

Speaker A: We can ring 10,000 people in three and a half hours. So therefore the robot just takes over and we've got a real estate product that we're just launching next week. And what happens is that real estate agents, as you well know, are, ah, all looking for appraisals because for every 10 appraisals they get, they might get two or three or four listings. And that's where they make the money out of the commission. But real estate agents, because they, a lot of them drove a bus last week, are not good marketers despite the fact that their entire business is all about marketing. But they'll put a picture of themselves on a leaflet and put it in your letterbox and say, we've got buyers in the area, so therefore we need to know the value of your home. Would you like a free valuation? And of course, that's it, that's it, that's the end of it. And I have said to them when I was speaking at real estate conferences, well, if you get three out of 10 appraisals, three of them turn into listing. Why don't you just give out a million appraisals? And they go, well, what do you mean? I said, well, just give out a million appraisals. I mean, why wouldn't you? Don't ask them, do they want one? Just give them one, for God's sake. Yeah, and so what we've, what we've got now is our, uh, robots basically ring 10,000 homes in any postcode area within half a day and gives. We've had a scraping service that we have overseas and that scrapes the valuation of every single home in those postcodes. So the robot rings up and says, look, hi, I'm Adam from the real estate research company. Did you know that you were sitting on something worth $1.2 million? And the house homeowner goes, what? Well, that's the valuation of your home. Would you like to actually have a local trusted agent come in and give that to you in writing? And what we're finding is that around about three out of ten will say yes. And so what we're doing is we're delivering those leads to real estate agents. They're not just leads, they're red hot leads. Because these people have already heads exploded when they found out what the valuation of that home is. And all we're asking, would you like the local real estate agent to actually confirm that in writing? And the reason I'm going through a couple of those case studies is because I think what a lot of small businesses fail to do is think through the scalability of what they might have. And if you're a little cafe and you've only got 20 chairs and 20 seats or whatever in there, that's very hard to scale. I understand that, but there's a whole bunch of businesses out there, particularly with AI now where you can scale overnight if you know how to do it.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I've seen local service businesses who try to do this sort of specific targeting to only talk to people in a certain particular area. Yeah, but what do you do with the leads that come into you from out of the area? I mean, I've got I've got a, a good friend who, she runs like a florist business. So she does wedding, wedding flowers, right? So she does flowers for weddings, right? So she'll get the bride and groom to come along and she'll do ah, a demonstration and show them and all that sort of stuff. And then she goes and sets everything up. She says. She, she, I think she runs some Google Ads to get inbound leads for them. So that's good in, in that regard. But you know, she says quite often she will get people who, uh, they may be physically themselves in the location that, that she covers, right? But the venue that they want to have, the wedding location is completely outside of her jurisdiction, if you like. And I'm like, so what do you do with those? And she goes well, I just declined. I'm like, why are you just declining them? And she says, well what do you mean and what, what should I do? I'm like, we should be selling them to somebody else that covers uh, that particular geographical area to say, look, I'm getting leads for that area. Would you like to buy a lead from me? Because I can't service it. But you might be able to, because that way it's, it's something where she can reduce her overall acquisition costs for the lead herself, right. And, and improve her uh, uh, ancillary revenue from something other than just putting flowers together. And I've never, I think a lot of small businesses don't really do that lateral thinking. Think outside the box and think beyond the sort of the boundaries of where they happen to be.

Speaker A: And I think, uh, you know why, Jim? Is because no one ever taught them that at university or college, when you talk to any butcher, baker, candlestick maker, uh, plumber, it doesn't matter who they are. Dentist. I mean this dentist guy that we've just smashed in terms of numbers of leads for him, so he's a pretty happy camper. He said, look, this is just mind blowing. I said, well look, we do this for a living. So therefore we don't see it quite as David Copperfield as you do. But I said, tell me this, when you did your dental course at university, did they ever teach you how to get any patients? And of course the answer's no. And if you talk to plumbers, electricians, you talk to butchers, bakers, candlestick makers, they are very good technicians because that's what they learned to do. But no one ever taught them how to get customers, no matter how many years they did at Unique. And so therefore, really you can't really expect them to know this sort of stuff. And I think that the thing is, is that when you do what I've been doing, you've got to write books, as I mentioned. So, uh, the other one that I had to write was the avalanche leads formula. So therefore, really, at the end of the day, most of the clients that I have.

Speaker B: Did you get Hugh Jackman to do that for you? The COVID Like, you look very.

Speaker A: Yeah, that was me without the wrinkles. That was a few years ago. Yeah. So anyway, the thing is, is that they, they being business owners, the main thing they want is leads. If they can't convert, then I normally say, look, don't get a job, because if you can't convert your own product, then there's something wrong. But what most people need, you and I, Jim, are no exception, and that is leads. Because you have to have the leads in order to close x percentage of them. And what we tend to do is say to people, look, if you have a me m too product, which is a solar dealer, the solar dealer can say, look, my solar panels are better because we get them from America instead of China. But to, uh, the woman who's making the decision at home, a solar panel looks much the same no matter where you get it from. So we call it a me Too product. And if you're in a me too industry and most people are, uh, because there's very, very few people that are in this, the iPhone industry, where Apple is very different and you don't have a differential, then the only thing you can do is market on price. And you and I both know how evil that is because it's a race to the bottom. So to take people's eyes off the price, you need to have a, uh, wow factor. My stuff is the Institute of Wales. So therefore you have to have a wow factor. Now, whether that is. Look. And we call that a Happy Meal toy. And it said it, I've got six children and they're all grown up now, but for a lot of years the kids were young and we used to spend $7 million a year on Happy Meals because of the toys. And if you've got, if you've got children, anyone listening to this would have grandkids.

Speaker B: Now, I can completely relate to that. And I always say you're not getting the toy until after you've eaten the food because if you give them the toy beforehand, food doesn't get eaten and it's a waste of time.

Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, me too. We've got threes and fives. And 7 year olds as grandchildren as well. And anyway, so the thing is is that I refer to as a Happy Meal toy. And I did a campaign for a bank down under some years ago called the Greater Building Society. And for building societies and credit unions, you'd probably be aware, but their target audience are working class people. The banks tend to stick with people who've got a collar and tie. And so this bank said to me, look, what should we do marketing wise? I said, well, forget trying to take on the big guys on interest rates for your home loans, because you're never going to win. You're not going to win. It'd be like a little general store taking on Costco, you know, not going to win on price.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I said, you have a honeymoon rate, don't you? And they said, yeah, we have a 1% honeymoon rate for people who come in and get a home loan. I said, we'll give that to a travel company that I'd been doing some TV commercials for and they'll give you a discount rate on holidays. And so that's what we did. We came on TV and we said, get a home loan. We'll swap it from one of the big banks and we'll give you a free holiday. They took $15 billion worth of extra home loans in the first couple of years. And this idiot who you're talking to didn't charge a commission on the home loans. I took a fee.

Speaker B: It wasn't a percentage of revenue. That would have been nice. That would have been nice.

Speaker A: About the fourth year in, we decided to go up a level and I got Jerry Seinfeld to do the rads. And so I'd fly back and forth to New York. Sorry for the name dropping. I just casually dropped that. And it took some time to get him, but I got him eventually. And so for three years, Jerry Seinfeld came on TV in Australia and said, swap your home loan to the grader and get a free holiday. This thing went absolutely apeshit. It went nuts.

Speaker B: Did people in Australia know who Jerry Seinfeld was?

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that one.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: All right.

Speaker B: Again, I was like, I know Seinfeld is a bit sort of cultish. I think a lot of people either know it and love it or have never seen it before and go, who's he had? Oh, yes.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, he's very, very well known. And yeah, so anyway, that went nuts. And as a result of that, uh, a holiday. And it was a Happy Meal toy. That's all it was. And every time bankers which of course left brain people would say to me, oh, look, let's get them to jump through some hoops and get them to open up this account or that account and then they get a holiday. I said, no, no, keep it simple. Buy a Happy Meal, get a toy, get a home loan, get a holiday, stick to that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Anyway, as a result of that, pretty hard to keep it a secret when Seinfeld's your spokesman. So I got a call from a company in America and they said, we've got access to hotel rooms right around the world, uk, Europe, Australia, America, where the hotels are happy to give us the rooms for free because they know that whoever stays there will probably spend money on food and beverage. And I said, well, uh, go on. And they said, we don't know marketing, but you obviously have half a clue. So how about we join forces and we share the revenue. So that's what we've done in this last few years. We're specialized in giving particularly small businesses, uh, that are. Me too. Industry, like a solar dealer or a butcher or baker or car dealership. And we say to them, look, we'll give you this voucher which will give you three nights accommodation at four star hotels in UK and right throughout Europe. We'll give that to you for $50, which is whatever that is in UK currency, and you use that as a Happy Meal toy. So therefore they go on a test drive for your car dealership and they get one of these because out of every 10 test drives, you're probably going to close three. Sal.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Or if they buy your lounge suite or use your lawn mowing services and it has gone absolutely nuts because you try looking for a better Happy Meal toy than a free holiday, it just doesn't exist.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, um, I think what was quite interesting is that, I mean, again, going back to when I used to sell insurance for a living, again, I really enjoyed. It was a lot of fun. One particular year, like the company I was working for are in our, uh, car insurance, motor insurance product was renowned to be the most expensive on the market. And it was expensive because it was really good. If you ever had an accident, you knew why it was worth it was worth what you paid for it. And most of the people that were selling would go out on their patch and try and sell, right? They might sell in a year, maybe 40 or 50 sort of car insurance products and they never even bothered talking to anyone about it. And one particular year I sold 600 of them. And that. Well, uh, I think the next person in the company that sold 200, that was the next best person to me, right? And they said, jim, how did you do it? I'm like, I just quoted everyone, right? Everyone I spoke to, I said, have I given you a car insurance quote yet? And they would go, oh, yeah, you're giving me one. Well, what about your wife? Is she had one for her car? What about your son? Has he had one for his car? And I used to just sit there and give them a quote. And it was in. In the olden days when it was all carbon copy. Paper. Carbon paper. And you had to put it in triplicate and everything, write it all out, handwritten. There's no. No printed stuff, right? I had to do all by hand. And I said, look, there's. There's. There's a kind of quote. Let me know what you think. And when. When's it due for renewal? It's not June until July. Well, I'll come back and see you in July. And I'd make a note, always make sure I followed up, say your renewals coming up. And quite often, if people had had an accident, that's when they would switch because they'd had a bad experience with the company that had. And I know I always maintained that the only reason I sold more than anyone else was I asked for more business than anyone else. And that's the simple bottom line.

Speaker A: You scale. Yeah, you scale this little. And really, it is a numbers game. We've got two, uh, Harley Davidson dealers in Texas at the moment running this vacation program. And one of them, they heard me on a podcast, ironically, like this, and they said, oh, we've got to do this. And they were going to give the vacation away. And in America, the vacation destinations are unbelievable. We're talking Orlando, Disney World, New York, Las Vegas, Grand Canyon, San Diego, all the hot spots. And of course, they get this voucher for $50, when, in fact, it's worth $1,000. So it's a pretty, uh. That's why McDonald's Happy Meal works, because the toy is made in China for 22 cents, but it looks like it's a $5 toy in Kmart. So you want any, uh, if you're going to have an incentive, don't give them a $50 dining voucher, because that's worth $50. They know that. Don't give them movie tickets because they know that's worth $50. Give them something that's a low cost to you but a massive perceived value, and that's why this works. $50, but it's worth a thousand. And these two Harley Davidson dealerships, one of them said to me, look, we're going to give it away when we sell a $35,000 bike. I said, no, no, no, you're on drugs. Okay, don't do that. That's stupid. And he said, but you're all about incentives, giving away when they purchase. I said, yeah, when they purchase something for maybe a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, but no one's going to buy a bike for 35,000 or $40,000 to get three nights in Vegas. It's just not going to happen. You are on drugs.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And they said, well, how do we do it? I said, well, tell me, who buys a bike without going for a test ride? He said, no one. I said, okay. And out of 10 test rides, how many bikes you normally sell? 3.5. That's the average, right? Uh, I said, okay. Well, a bit like my real estate story, just handed a million test drives or test rides for a bike. And so we convinced them to run it, whereby you get a free vacation if you have a test ride. Because for every 10 test rides, they saw three and a half bikes.

Speaker B: Yeah, and there may be some people that will be, yeah, I'll do a test ride because I want the holiday. And. And those would be a very, very small, small, small percentage. But equally, there'll probably be some of those people that, that was their initial intention, was to just get the free holiday, but they like the experience so much that they end up kind of buying a bike.

Speaker A: And that's called collateral damage. People always say to me, oh, yeah, but you know, what about if I, uh, see you. No, no, no, stop the if. Stop saying why and start saying why not. Because the thing is, is that, uh, there will be collateral damage for any one of these mass appeal things. There's going to be people who slip through the cracks and that they will be just what we call price pigs. They're only in it to get the prize. They're not interested in the product. But that's just life. Life is a percentage game. So therefore, don't stop doing something that's really outside the box, because there's a few people that will actually cheat. You just have to live with that. That's the way it is. That's the way it is.

Speaker B: But I think the thing I like about sort of like the stories that you're talking about here is you're bringing a sort of a big business mentality with the brands that you've worked with, your McDonald's and KFCs and so on, but you're able to translate that into a how can I implement this in a local environment to maximum effect? And that, to me is like such an amazing analogy to you.

Speaker A: What we do now, because we know they find it very difficult to implement, is that we just give them the package and do it for them. So, you know what I guess began to talk about before, and I didn't probably explain it properly, is that because we now understand that the implementation is a real problem for a business doing under a million dollars, because it's a mum and dad business with one or two or five employees, we just package it up and do it for them. So when they actually buy into this program, which is the holiday program, we have a UK site, we have an American site, we have an Australian site, and we just do it all for them. So therefore, we look after the Facebook for them, we provide them with the vouchers, we show them what they should be doing online with their homepage and so forth. And really that's what they want. Because when I take my car to the mechanic, I don't want him to start telling me about the carburetor. Uh, I didn't even know it had a carburetor. I just say, mate, here's the money, fix the car. And I think that's really where all of us, the likes of you and I, because we're advisors in the marketing field, I think we have to acknowledge that there's only a percentage of people that can actually roll their sleeves up and get it done. So if that's the case, just do it for them. Just do it for them.

Speaker B: Yeah, because I think that was always the thing I used to get. People would be, oh, Jim, just send me a proposal and I'll talk to my boss about it. I'm like, no, if we're going to talk to your boss, I'm going to talk to your boss. Because no disrespect to you, you will not do the same job of selling this proposition as I will. And you want this to work, right? You've told me that you want it to work. So help me to help you to deliver this to your boss and get it over the line, right? Because otherwise, like I said, you won't sell it with the same panache. You won't be able to answer his comeback questions in any way that kind of satisfies him. They'll just go, oh, uh, no, we're not interested. And then. And then it's a lost Sale for me, lost opportunity for them. And, and again, I've, I've always maintained I don't like leaving people with something that they, they have a solution for that they have been presented with, this is the problem, this is the solution. And then they don't end up taking the solution because they're still left with the problem and they haven't got a solution to that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I m mean, look, we do a lot of the insured price promotion, so coming from a contest background, I know that you cannot give away a week's worth of groceries now and expect anyone to respond. You can't give away motorcar and expect anyone to respond because the TV programs have shown that, you know, who Wants to Be a Millionaire, Deal or no Deal, they're giving away hundreds of thousands of dollars, so they've set the bar higher than what it used to be. So when people say, oh, look, win a car, I think, oh, again, you're on drugs. I mean, no one's going to care about that. They can win a million dollars on tv. And so what we do is a lot of prize insurance promotions with Lloyds of London. And what happens is that if I don't get to talk to the decision maker, uh, the marketing person or wannabe marketing person that has to explain they've seen me on stage or they've seen me on a webinar. So they go and talk to the boss and they say to the boss, let's run the million dollar draw. And of course the boss immediately goes, no, that's going to cost us a million dollars. No, it's not. It's going to cost you $20,000, okay? Because Lloyds at London will give you the million dollar prize for 20 grand. And unless I explain that to them, then of course they don't get it. They just think, oh, a million dollars is going to cost a million dollars. And you know, so you're quite right. Unless, and that's why things like this, your podcast and things like webinars are so, uh, valuable because you get to sell once to many, you get to talk to many people and you can explain what's behind the curtain. Whereas if they just see a, uh, snippet of it and then rattle off and think that they can do it for themselves, generally speaking, they either screw it up or they just don't do it.

Speaker B: So John, you do seminars. You have like a series of seminars. Are they online seminars? Because obviously you're based in Australia. So a lot of my audiences may be North American based or UK Based, Europe based. So is it online stuff that they can sign up to your seminars?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Mainly these days online. I mean, courtesy of COVID I mean they're running around, having to put uh, a suit on and catch airplanes everywhere. That, that sort of has dissipated. Which um.

Speaker B: M. Do you miss it because? M. I mean I kind of like, I spent a lot of time traveling. I used to, I used to go to a conference in, in the Gold Coast. So I used to fly into Melbourne, spend a couple of days in Melbourne, then we'd fly up to the Gold Coast. Beautiful place, love the Gold Coast.

Speaker A: And that's where I live actually. I'm on the Gold coast beach.

Speaker B: I just, I just love the, the kind of the Gold Coast. It's beautiful there. And, and, but, but, but I, I found that the trip to get there was for me brutally physically brutal. Right. I mean it was just like 21, 22 hours. No matter which way you did it, whether you did Dubai and then Melbourne or Hong Kong and then Melbourne, it didn't matter. Like it was still a 14 hour flight and a 7 hour flight whichever way you broke it up. Right. It's all the same thing isn't. You're not breaking it down any further. And again, I think people say, oh, it'll be direct flights. Do you want to sit for 15 hours on a flight for non stop? I mean I just wouldn't want to do that. Right. I need to get off and walk around a bit. But. So do you miss it? Do you miss it a lot or you do?

Speaker A: Yeah. And look, I'm a bit sarcastic and so therefore you miss the reaction that you get when you're in a live audience. Because yeah, I mean when I'll have a hot seat and invite someone to come up and, and be on um, stage in the hot seat and we'll bring up their website. And generally speaking, as you well know, most websites are awful. And so I'll ask them who did your website? Stevie Wonder. And then of course I will on the butcher paper sketch out how it should look because I'm a reasonable artist. And so therefore we can transform their website within an hour. Because what I have is a website designer at the back of the um, room looking at my sketch and he just picks up my sketch and then basically they take it to the next level. By the time the seminar's finished, there's a brand new website for that person. And if that's not an influential thing, then nothing is because that person signs up for our program straight away. And there's a few other people around that, you know. So the seminar's definitely are better than webinars and more enjoyable, there's no doubt about that. But, yeah, look, when Covid came along, we all got used to doing zoom, exactly what we're doing right now. So we do. Yeah, we do zoom. Um, pretty much. Mostly now I do the odd seminar, but really, at the end of the day, we got lazy because of COVID Yeah.

Speaker B: And again, I find that we were talking before we came on air that a lot of people have this sort of situation where their lighting is not very good, audio's not very good, the, like, the, the picture's not very good, background's not really good. There's so many things that, that they haven't focused their attention on. And I think so much of it is that. Certainly me, when I'm watching people now present, quite often I'm drawn to that. The kind of, what does this sound like? Right Again, I close my eyes and listen. And if it's too grating, I'm like, I'm sorry, I can't listen to this. And quite often I will just literally shut it down. If the audio's okay, but the video's not so good, maybe again, that's passable. You can go, okay, well, I can listen to it on Spotify and it's fine. But if the audio is not very good, I think a lot of people are frightened to invest the money in upgrading their kit. It's not particularly expensive now. It's getting cheaper and cheaper, uh, as each new iteration of microphones and sound decks come out. And again, I'm just thinking if you make your living from doing this type of stuff right, in an online environment, then you really need to invest in the technology that will help you to do your job right. And so they could focus on what's coming out your mouth, not on what the piece of kit in front of it is.

Speaker A: What I find, though, Jim, is that if it's any benefit to anyone that might be thinking about becoming an advisor, like you and I are, uh, and Frank Kern says this, and it's a very true statement, and that is, is that if you can help people, then prove to you, prove that you can help them by actually helping them, it just makes sense. In other words, do what you do with all these podcasts. And in my instance, because I can draw and we pump out websites in 48 hours versus the beta tipsters, that can take months, I will do a quick sketch, and that quick sketch will look Something like that. I don't know if somebody's listening. They can't see this, but if they're watching it on video. So that sketch there will show the headline, it will show where all the copy goes. I will put it A, B, C, D. So therefore, my Filipino website designers will know exactly what to do. And all of that's done pretty much within 20 minutes, 30 minutes, because I can draw. And of course, the brief that goes to the website designer is then a very detailed brief. It's very unlikely that it's going to have to go through four or five machinations. And when I do that, uh, when you do it live on a webinar or on stage, there's no question that that is absolute proof of what you can deliver. And it makes a magnet, like a, uh, massive difference to the sales at the end of it. So I would say to anyone that if you are going to become a coach or consultant of anything, demonstrate your wizardry in front of people, whether it be on stage or whether it be on Zoom webinars. Because at the end of the day, a lot of people hold back and think, oh, I'm not going to tell them that. That's my intellectual property and it should be privately that you pay money before I tell you. No, no, no, give them as much as you possibly can.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's funny, like, you mentioned Frank Kerner. I mean, I remember watching one of his programs and, uh, he would do a sort of, uh, a presentation on stage. And again, he. He was super cool. I mean, he's obviously got much shorter hair now, but he used to have the long hair and the sort of scruffy gear and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And. And again, I was like, wow, that's a really cool look. I mean, it's a look that I don't think either of you could ever. You or I could ever pull off. But fair play to him. But. But I think it's. It's really interesting. Again, he used to quite often go old school. He'd either have a flip chart or he'd have, like, acetates. Right. With an overhead projector. I used to love overhead projectors for doing stuff. Right. Very old school. But again. But don't get lost in. It's not about the technology. It's not about the things that fly in on your keyNote and your PowerPoint and everything else. It's literally what comes out your mouth. Right.

Speaker A: Some people say Dan Kennedy still uses the overhead projection. He did write it because I remember just scrolling through the phone, whenever. That was a few years ago. And he wrote almost an obituary for himself and just said, look, I've had a good life and this, that and the other. But it looks like it's not long to go. The doctors have told me this, that and the other.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's what I read. I read his kind of like his self, self proclaimed obituary and I just assumed that that was what.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Well, so that's fantastic that he got over it. And yeah, I don't know whether there's any repercussions down the track, but I mean he's done very well. But yeah, Russell Brunson ended up buying his business, which I think demonstrates, I mean Russell Brunson is at the forefront of today's technology and yet he bought a business that, uh, was, one would argue was old school.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, but again I think it's, it's the old school principles are still what governs the new kind of technological led businesses of today. If you.

Speaker A: And you know what I mean, Even when I preach value add marketing instead of process scouting because you want to protect your brand. And I guess what we call incentive based marketing, which is the Happy Meal toy, it doesn't always have to be like that. You've just got to think outside, uh, the square. And the sample that I gave is that we lived in a little country town in New South Wales and it was two hours north of Sydney, had a population. When I say we lived there, we moved there for a few years and they had a popular. It was a little bit like Andy Griffiths Mayberry. And uh, there was one butcher and one baker and this, that the other. And as it turned out there was one hairdresser in town and my wife, our kids were going to the little St. Joseph School in town and my wife would get her hair done on the way to pick up the kids from school from time to time. And the lady who owned, uh, the hairdressing salon's name was Kimberly. And she said to my wife, look, would John have any of that wow stuff? And Gail said, why? And she said, well, there's a lady opened up across the road a new hairdressing sale. And it's the first competition I've had in 20 years in a little country town. She's stolen all of my men. And uh, my wife said, what do you mean? She said, well, we used to charge $50 for a men's haircut. Huh. But she's charging $10. And so men don't care. They'll get Their hair cut at a butcher. Right. So they just have all gone across the road to the new lady. And she said, the trouble is, is that where the men go, sometimes the women follow and the women are where make most of the money because they'll spend 100, 200, $300 on a hair thing. And so Gary comes home and says to me, look, I've got a free job for you. I went, oh, thank you. That's all I need is another freebie. Because the thing is, as you would know, I'm sure, Jim, is that nobody asks the electrician to put a PowerPoint in the kitchen when they come over for a barbecue. But when you go to a barbecue and I go to a barbecue, everyone wants to know about a marketing idea for free.

Speaker B: I think a lot of people make the mistake. They assume because I do marketing for a living, they go, oh, Jim, you work with computers. I'm like, everyone that works in an office works with computers. In fact, I know how to. I know around them a lot better than most people because, again, I've spent my. My whole life. God, this thing's really pissing me off. It's frustrating the hell out of me, and I've just learned how to do things right. But that's. That's the only difference between me and. And somebody else that works in an office. I've just spent more time.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, the thing is, you don't need to be a chef to know what tastes good. So when my computer breaks down, I get the computer going. Don't worry about that. Yeah. Anyway, so I. I sat on it for a day or two, and I said to Gail, okay, look, I'll go in and talk to Kimberly. So I did, and I said, look, I think we can get all your men back pretty quickly. And she goes, yeah, I've got to drop to $9, and it's charging $10 a haircut. I said, no, no, no, you don't need to do that. So we produced a sandwich board and we put it outside her hairdressing salon, which was directly opposite the one that had opened up across the road. And the. She got all the men back within a week or two because the sandwich, uh, board said we fixed $10 haircuts so you don't always have to have a head.

Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Again, it. It is one of those things. I mean, whenever. Whenever I go to the barbers again, I, I will just go into the. The one that I happen to walk by as a go. Right. So I'M more if I go, oh, I need a haircut. Uh, I'll just walk past. Oh, there's a barbers. I go in there, I couldn't really care. It's like there's not, not much left now to worry too much about. And, and, and they, they're standing there and they spend all this time in the back and doing this, doing this. And, and they go, do you want it sort of like, like a, sort of a duck's asshole straight across? I'm like, to be honest with you, I, I can't see the back, so I don't really care. You do what you do what you think is best. You're the expert. I, uh, trust your judgment. If you think it's straight across, then do that. If you want. Ducks aren't fine, do that. I really don't care because I can't see it. Apart from the one time, the, the one time that can actually see it is when they hold the mirror up that side. That side.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, fine. Great. Yeah. I keep thinking, like, what are they actually looking for? They're looking for some constructive feedback.

Speaker A: Well, and Jim, let me ask you this. Have they ever collected your data? I bet you the answer is no.

Speaker B: No, never. Never.

Speaker A: Amazing. Just amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. Uh, can you imagine, can you imagine running your business now without having collected your data? Uh, we've got about, I don't know, 9,800 or something businesses. Most of them are in Australia, but there's a few overseas. And, uh, if ever I feel that, oh, we might make some more money this week, I just send out one or two emails and that's as simple as that. Now obviously it's got to be a good deal. I'm actually. But you know, if you don't have that facility, then you just are, uh, hoping and praying that someone's going to walk through the door.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's like you mentioned real estate. I mean, one of the, again, really smart real estate guys that I know, Dean Jackson, based in Florida, he has the nine word email where he sends an email out. And the subject, the description, like the whole body of the email is are you still looking for help with whatever it was that you kind of like they were looking for help with when you spoke to them, like six months ago, whenever it might be. And it's amazing how many people you do that. I mean, I used to do that from time to time. That works. So I just used to do that from time to time. I would Go to my email list, write an email and go, uh, aren't you still looking for help with paid media, Facebook ads, Google, whatever, whatever it was that I had a conversation with them about. Question mark, Jim. Send. That was it. And it used to take me about literally 10 seconds to send it. And again, I would probably send maybe 40 or 50 those in a week if I was like a bit, hey, I've got a bit of capacity to do some additional stuff and I would probably bet, I would, I would guess probably between 5 and 10% of the people I would send those to, I would get a response from. And at least you, again, you, you've got, you've got the opportunity. You'll. People always say you only miss the balls that you swing at. If you don't swing at it, you'll never hit it. So at least I'm in. In with the chance of pitching to try and win it. And if I don't win it, then I don't win it for, for whatever reason. I mean, again, sometimes you sometimes don't.

Speaker A: Michael Jordan reckons he holds a world record for the number of poops missed.

Speaker B: Yeah, mind you, I don't know if LeBron's got that now. He must have kind of had more shots than Michael now.

Speaker A: He must, it must be up there. Yeah. But the thing is, is that the good thing about email, and almost the same with sms, although there's a small cost to sms, is that it's free. It's absolutely free. And when people say to me, oh, you got to pay 5 in Australian currency, it's 5 or 6 cents for an SMS, I go, well, how do you send out 5,000 and my car, uh, my God, can you understand that back in the day you'd have to buy a postage stamp, put it in an envelope and hope to goodness that it will arrive at the address. You can pay 5 cents. And the thing with the, uh, with the SMS is that it's an 80% open rate within two minutes, compared to emails, of course, which is good luck. 80% open within two minutes. There's never been anything like that in the history of the world.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think probably messengers may be the only other thing that kind of has a similar sort of open right now. But again, I find messenger is. It's been spoiled by a lot of people who are just spamming the living daylights out of groups and whatever else with pornography and whatever. So I think a lot of people, if they're not expecting, if they don't know you and they're not. You're not in their connections, then they'd be like, not going to do.

Speaker A: Although, Jim, I've been very fortunate. I've been very fortunate. I've got about seven Russian brides now, so therefore, yeah, it's been very. So we're very good. For me, I haven't met any of them, but.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've sent a little bit of money to Nigeria from time to time, but. But it always makes me laugh when people say, oh, why would people be so stupid? It's because some people are stupid. I mean, that's, uh, unfortunately, the. The nature of the world. Unfortunately. Some people will fall for that type of thing, and I nearly fall for it from time to time. Not again, not that type of thing. But. So the occasional phishing attempt or whatever. Hang on a minute, I'm not really sure about that. And then you go, oh, no, that's definitely not what it claims to be. I mean, the kind of classic one is I've been a, uh, Facebook or a better business partner for a long time. They have the kind of a partner program where you're supposed to get all these great benefits. They're supposed to send you tons of lead. Um, I've had one lead in probably eight or nine years from China. Clearly wasn't worth anything. But because I have a directory entry, I get spammed to death by people trying to sell me things and pretending to be other people and whatever else. So I actually got to the point where I had the opportunity to no longer be a meta partner and take me out the directory, and that's what I've done. Again, I don't need it. I don't need it. Maybe other people do to kind of have it. Have it stroke their ego. I don't need my ego stroked at all in any way, shape or form.

Speaker A: So. So, Jim, how do you. How do you then get new clients? What do you do? Do you advertise yourself on social media?

Speaker B: No, no. I mean, literally, like people always say, so how do you find new clients? I'm like, I don't. They find me. Which. Which again, I think, I think. I think, uh, a lot of that is by virtue of the fact, again, I've gone out and gone out, um, of my way to try and help as many people as I can. My wife always complains that I do a lot of free stuff or I help a lot of people for free. It's just, I like helping people. I really do. I really genuinely want to see people succeed because I think the more people succeed, the more the kind of the business is robust and reliable and the industry grows as a kind of, it continues to evolve. Right. I was in, in it, involved in it from the very beginning, much like yourself, right? You came from an old school background into a new, a new world. And you've had to learn new skills along the way. But this kind of principles of the old school still stood you in good stead. And I think a lot, a lot of people, I don't have that old school foundation and have just gone straight in, like almost trying to bypass it. And I think you, again, a lot of them are now trying to go back and, and learn it, which makes it that much more difficult to do. I mean, again, I was just a sort uh, of scholar of your Zig Ziglars, your Tom Hopkins, your Tom Peters, right. Dale Carnegie's Claude Hopkins. I mean all these guys that wrote great books. I've got my whole Kindle full of that type of stuff. I absolutely love it, love reading it. Again, I used to enjoy the old paper books, right. But I'm more. I have everything on a Kindle now because it's much easier to carry around, right. So if I go on a train for two hours, I can kind of read, read stuff. And again, I'm copious highlighting all the time, highlight, highlight, highlight.

Speaker A: Oh, so you got the, you've got the yellow hollow pen with you all the time.

Speaker B: Oh, all the time, all the time. And again, what I do is I copy all those highlights into a program called Readwise. Right. So that puts it into there. And then I've basically got a, if you like, a sort of summary of the book in just my highlights. As I'm going to go along, I picked out the salient bits for me and somebody else will read the book and find that there are different parts that resonate with them and are more salient to them. Great. I would highly urge people to adopt that same methodology, but the way they read a book. So I tend to read a book first, then I go back and read it again and highlight as I go along the bits that I like.

Speaker A: I'll read autobiographies. My wife is a good reader of fiction and so forth and she always laughs at me because I don't read fiction. If I did, I'd read to the few pages and go straight to the back to find out what happened because I've got no attention span. But I'd rather read books on Walt Disney or Richard Branson or Steven Spielberg or whatever. It might be. I'd rather read an autobiography than. I don't care about love stories, I'm afraid.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes I like to see the way the kind of, the story's constructed in a, uh, in a good fiction novel. But. Yeah, but I think, yeah, to your point, I like to see the kind of, the origin story of some of these kind of entrepreneurs that you like. Again, I'm a huge fan of Bill Gates, right. In terms of his humility and kind of his philanthropy. Right. I think so many people now, I think the only thing my kind of industry is probably not doing a good job of is giving back to the world some of the spoils that they've managed to achieve through what they've got. Right. They're much more, here's my Lambos, here's my big houses. Here's me on a private jet. Here's me, whatever. Seriously, I'd much rather say here's. Here's some, um, some kids that I put. Again, I love LeBron because he's putting all these kids through sort of school and university and everything else. He's, again, he's, he's at the point he's got so much money, doesn't need it, doesn't need to play basketball. He still loves it, right. But he's doing it to build his legacy. And his legacy will stretch far beyond the date that he hangs up his, uh, his boots and stops playing. Right. I just, again, I just think I, I like giving back. I like helping people. And I think in doing that, I'm helping impart some of my, My wisdom. Right? It's my wisdom, but even still, it's like people can take, take and do with it what they want to. I'm not charging them for the privilege of having it. I genuinely want to see if, again, if people come on and, and, and, and want to do well in business. I'm, I'm the biggest cheerleader. Stand from the sidelines and cheer them on to do it. And if they need help, I'm more than happy to do that because it's. Again, I'm not looking for anything return. I know some people will go, uh, well, I'll only do this if you give me 10% of this and 10%. Again, I'm not a fool. I don't want to do everything for free because that would be stupid of me to do that. I've got a very commercial kind of m. Mind, and I want to make sure that kind, um, of continues to work. But I think if I Only look at it as what's in it for me. I'm looking at the wrong thing. I need to be looking at what's in it for them. Right. And as a byproduct of that, there'll be lots in it for me as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, look, as Gary V. Hook, I think he said, was it jab, jab, jab, punch, which is give, give, give, and then ask. So, uh, yeah, there's a good philosophy behind your mantra. Tell me this before I go. Bill Gates, Microsoft, are you aware that October 14th is the day that the Microsoft 10 stops having any support, and so therefore you've got to get Microsoft 11?

Speaker B: Oh, really? No, I wasn't aware of that. I've been on

Speaker A: Windows. Windows. Sorry, you are.

Speaker B: Uh, I'm a Mac guy, so I don't. I don't use Windows for that purpose, but.

Speaker A: Yeah, but the reason I bring that up is because I've had a client come on board in the last month and he's got an alternative to Windows, and as it turns out, it runs 25 times faster than Windows 11. And I think he's onto something. I'm just putting the campaign together for it at the moment. And, um, the strategy that we're using is that October 14th is pretty much doomsday. That because the world as you know it, if you've got a Windows 10, will disappear on October 15th. Because if you don't have Windows 11, then you have no support with Microsoft to walking away from it. And guess what? There's 440 million people in the world still with Windows 10. So I said to this guy, I think you might be onto something, because there's a lot of people who are, uh, a bit paid off with Windows. And if there's an alternative out there, and of course, we've got a big job ahead of us too, make sure it's seen as a credible alternative. But I've gone down the rabbit hole. This thing is brilliant and it's 25 times faster than Windows. That's. I mean, he showed me a PowerPoint presentation which was 300 slides, and 30 of those slides were videos, and it downloaded in about seven seconds. It was unbelievable.

Speaker B: That's quick.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I just thought I'd ask you that, because when you mentioned Bill Gates, it came to mind. This guy is very, very clever and I hope he does well and I hope we can help him because. Yeah. Uh, and of course, you can imagine the campaign that we'll be running is that if you have Windows 10 and then something happens after October 14th, you're on your own. You have to just go ahead and buy a new computer for $1500 and get Windows 11.

Speaker B: Yeah. Again, I think there has to come a point in time when you stop providing support for legacy stuff. I mean, there has to be. I mean, at some point in time, you go, okay, enough's enough. I mean, I know with the Apple products, I mean, I've got an old iPhone 7 still works. I can still turn it on, I can still do stuff on it. But a lot of the apps that I use, like day to day now in my kind of business don't function on that because they need a certain version of the operating system that that particular phone doesn't support anymore because it's not, again, it's not reliable and, um, strong enough to support the new operating system versions that have come out since that phone was produced probably 10 years ago. I get that you don't want to have a big room full of engineers supporting technology that I know 400 million sounds like a lot, and it is. Right. But I think, I think a lot of people will probably as much as the new stuff that you've talking about sounds great and I'm sure it'll do well, but I'm sure a lot of people will just be like, they'll probably bite the bullet to go, okay, I'm going to Pay for Windows 11. Because it's, it's just, it's. I think they're, they're digging their heels in now because they don't really want to be paying any more money. But it's a case of if you don't pay this money, then, you know, you're on your own, then, oh, there's

Speaker A: nothing wrong with Microsoft's model. It's clever. I mean, you know, the thing is, is that you've got to have the latest and the greatest. So a lot of people do that. But, uh, by the same token, I have to applaud this guy's entrepreneurial flair because he's seen a gap and he's going to give it his best shot to fill it. So there's nothing wrong with what Microsoft are doing. I mean, if you and I were in that position, we'd make sure that people got to change every now.

Speaker B: And I mean, you look at the iPhone, I mean, the iPhone is a classic example of a incredibly, incredibly well, like, packaged and manufactured and marketed product because they come out with a new iPhone version. So they, I think, what is it, 16? That's just come out now. Right. I've got friends that have bought every single new iPhone the day it's come out. They've stood in line outside an iPhone store, Apple Store, and they've dropped twelve hundred dollars to get a new phone. I'm like, what was wrong with the old phone? Oh, nothing was wrong with it. I just wanted the new one. I'm like, what do you do with the old one? I'll just put it in the box and put it, uh, up on a shelf. And it's all about status.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, and it's just so they've got like a graveyard full of old iPhones that are just there for posterity.

Speaker A: Well, you probably feel the same because if I came back to do another job, I would make sure that I produced a toothpaste or underarm spray or something like that that people have got to buy every, every four weeks or six weeks or whatever. Because if you produce a product like a microwave oven or refrigerator, then there's a good chance it's going to last ten years. And, um, that's not where the money is. The money is getting people to buy your product every month.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And you look at some of the classic kind of, how do we double sales? I mean the old with shampoo sales, it was like wash, rinse, repeat. How easy was that? Can you get by with not repeating? Probably. But you know, a lot of people say, well, it's much better if you do. Okay, fine, well I'll do that then. So you're going to consume twice as much of the product, which for me was genius.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker B: So, John, this has been phenomenal. I've really, again, I love having people that have got an old school background, but with clearly, uh, a kind of a sharp, um, as ever up to date brain. And clearly you've provided so much amazing information for podcast listeners and watchers to, to take away and uh, and hopefully act upon. So if they wanted to act upon like this episode and kind of get in touch with you, all your, all your details will be in the show notes in terms of like websites and podcast stuff and everything else. So if they want to have you as a guest on the podcast again, I'd love you to kind of get more podcast guesting on the back of this because you've been a phenomenal guest for me. I'm sure you'd be a phenomenal guest for other people as well. But if there was one thing that you wanted them to do, what would that be as a parting shot?

Speaker A: That's one of those questions you do get at the end of, at the end of podcasts. Not the same as many M. Most of them are. Uh, if you had to say something to your 21 year old self, what would you say? Because that's an. But first of all, if anyone wants to contact me, look, my website, and as Jim said, it's on the notes anyway, but it's theinstituteofwow.com and my email address is johntheinstituteofwow.com so that's my contact details probably. If I was to give any advice to business owners, and particularly younger ones, don't make the mistake that I made. When I was in my 20s and 30s and I was getting into this advertising and marketing game, I hung around left brain to people. I don't know why, whether it was an accident or not, but I hung around people who kept on saying to me, oh, why would you do this? Why would you do that? Why would you do this? And that's what accountants and lawyers and operational minded people tend to do. They'll find a reason why not to do something and they'll go, oh, why? Why would you do that? Why would you do that? And I didn't do it consciously, but just by accident, I then in my mid-30s, bumped into people who said, why not? And they were a bit crazy. They like you, Jim. Bit crazy, okay? And, and so therefore I'd give them a crazy idea and they go, oh yeah, why not Give that a shot, J.D. why not? And then so in my mantra inside my mind, I thought, hang on, why don't we hang around some people who are extroverted, willing to give things a try? Not stupidly, of course. You don't want them to jump in the deep end if they can't swim. But nonetheless, they were relatively entrepreneurial and they say, look, why not? So I've said to my six millennial kids, I don't know how many of them have listened to me, but if they do go out on their own, make sure that they try and surround them. I mean, don't get me wrong, you've got to have your left brain people to put the spreadsheets together, because crazy right brain people will just blow the budget. So I understand there's a need for them. But if you are an ideas person, try and hang around people who will just say, oh look, why not? And that's the best advice I can give anyone, is hang around with people who are willing to give it a shot, not stupidly, but are willing to give it a Shot. And we call it test and fix. Test it and fix it. And in today's world, given the media that we have with online, that it doesn't cost a lot of money to fit. We had a client just last week, he's got a business called thecruiseclub.com that you. So it's an Australian one, the cruise club. And guess who he's after? He's after people of course are over 50 who are going to spend 20, 30, $40,000 on a cruise rather than the kids that go on the party cruise. And we just put a Facebook campaign together for him, 15 lousy dollars a day. And uh, I said to him, for God's sake, up the budget. Well now, because guess what, at $15 a day, in the first week he's picked up over 300 members. So we're talking about 40 cent leads or 40 cent membership. And so therefore, guess what he wasn't. He was a chap that was around my vintage. He hadn't played with Facebook before, so he was a bit frightened to do it. I said, look, just jump and if you jump, just do a small $15 a day, which is ridiculous. That's nothing. And he's picked up 300. 300 leads in a week. Yeah, because he's willing to say why not?

Speaker B: Yeah. And again, I think if you do it with a safety net, it's again, somebody like yourself or me is ah, a kind of trusted advisor to steer the way and guide them off the rocks. Right. They'll do well. I mean my, again, my job is not to see people crash and go ahead and go. Right, who's next? Who next? Who wants to be my next client that I can rip off because that's just not how I work. Right. I, I have a vested interest in my clients end clients having a great, whatever it is that they're involved in. So again, if it's a cruise company, I want them, those people to have a great cruise. Right. By, by virtue of that then I want them to become a member of your clients program. And then by virtue of that I want them to become Facebook advertisers. I don't do it the other way around. I don't know. Facebook advertisers, client of yours. Happy, happy clients. I want them to be ultimately happy. And, and that's always that. Whenever I've mentioned about the clients finding me, most of the clients that come and want to work with me, I probably turn away 8 or 9 people out of 10 that want to work with me because they're not necessarily a good fit with the type of the ICP that I have for my own business. And, and again, I think a lot of people go into it with, uh, they don't really understand who their ICP is. And for those that are going, what's an icp? It's an ideal client propositional profile. You just need to almost describe that person as a, uh, as though they were a physical there in front of you. What would they, if they were sitting in the chair opposite it, what would they look like? Would they be male, female, young, old?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: What sort of job? What their interests? What they likes? What are their dislikes? Right. What's their family background? What do they look, what, where do they live? What do they drive? What sort of. Do they have kids? No kids. Uh, whatever it might be. If you lay all that sort of stuff out right, then you can start saying, well, what are the problems that your solution fixes for them? That they. Sometimes they don't realize they have those problems, but they do. So you mentioned there about the invisalign teeth. Children with crooked teeth. They were. Again, the. Your smile is the first kind of. It's, it's almost like your business card before you get your actual business card out, right? Because if you have horrible teeth, then people will be like, oh God, that's horrible. So everyone wants their children to have nice teeth, but quite often the kids just want to eat crisps and sweets and drink fizzy drinks, and that's going to cause them to have dental issues. They can do that type of thing. And as you say, if it's. It won't look like they got got sort of metal teeth, braces as most kids did back in the day. They're not, uh, better.

Speaker A: You know what, though? It's funny you could bring up the acronym ICP because we have one too for our clients. It's B, I C. And that stands for bloody idiot clients. I just thought I'd bring that up. We're not, we're not as nice as you. I'm nowhere near as nice as you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So thank you very much, Jim M. I've really enjoyed it.

Speaker B: Yeah, me too. It's been, it's been phenomenal. Thank you so much.