From Corporate to Fractional: A New Work Paradigm with Jag Jassel (Episode 84)

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the podcast. Just a reminder, if you haven't subscribed, please do. It does help a lot. You can listen to us on any of your podcast players or watch us on YouTube. We have some incredible conversations coming up this year, so we'd love to have you join us. Today I'm joined by Jag Jassel, a, uh, founder, uh, entrepreneur and innovator who successfully exited his business at the end of 2021 and, and then found himself, like many other leaders, asking, what's next? That question led him into the world of fractional executive work and ultimately to founding fractionalpractice.com. um, I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Well, hello, Jag. It's lovely to see you. It's been a long time in the making for our conversation because we met many years ago because you were one of my friends first business coaches when I left Telstra, and I was, I was unsure about what I was doing. And so, um, that was around 2020, I think.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, probably, uh, before that. Yeah, because I remember running that three, uh, day event. Uh, I think you came in at three or four.

Speaker A: I did. I came to a three day workshop with you.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that was, uh, yeah, 2018, 2019. Around that time. Yeah. So that was a long time ago.

Speaker A: Long time ago. Well, um, thank you so much for being on the, uh, podcast. I'm really excited about this conversation because I know you've got some really, um, new ways of thinking about career, and particularly career for executives who, like me, in a mature stage of life and experience, find themselves perhaps leaving the corporate world and thinking, what am I going to do now, people? But before we get into that, and I know because you've got such an entrepreneurial spirit, you've been a founder before. I wanted to just get a sense of what are the major milestones for you that have led you to this place today or right now.

Speaker B: All right, long story, but I'll start. Um, like many other people, I kind of grew up in a family where, um, I was told to do things, things in a certain way. So, for example, my family and the mindset I've been given that, hey, go and go to the university, go do your bachelor's and masters and PhDs and all that, and then follow, uh, the path and become a manager and work for a company for 20, 25, 30 years and then just retire. That was the kind of, uh, mindset I was in. And, uh, I kind of followed the path. I did all that, uh, you know, Been to the universe, done all that, double Masters and all that. But what happens is, along the way I kind of realized is, uh, this, uh, thing which I was taught, it kind of. I don't like that at the moment. It's just. I'm not enjoying it. It's just feeling like a, uh, rut that I'm kind of stuck. But I started doing things on the side and like many other people, we pick up stuff on the side and start doing things. I think 2015, 2016. Oh, sorry. Yeah, 2015 was the time when I showed up, uh, at one of the Tony Robbins events and uh, at the UPW about, you know, 10, 11 years ago now. At that time I was sort of saying, okay, you know, I work and I've got a good job and money is really good, but what's next? So that was a question I kind of started to ask, hey, what's next? I've done a lot of startups before that and did all that, but failed. None of them. My startups worked like, you know, I've done before that. I think 13, 14 startups, none of them worked.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: But one thing Tony said in that, uh, entire event, he said a lot of stuff, like for three days, he said tons of things. But a few things I picked up for me personally was, um, you know, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. You know, if you're trying to do something, go and find somebody who has done it and ask for help or pay them for coaching and, you know, then instead of trying to do it yourself, that was very different for me. Just because coming from, uh, this traditional background, asking for help means that, uh, you know, you are weak. And that hasn't been taught like, you know, looking at somebody else's results, looking at somebody else's work, called pleasurism. Right. So we couldn't. Actually, I wasn't kind of thinking that way at all. So I was thinking that I had to do everything alone by myself. You know, I'm, um, by myself. And that was the mindset. But in this world, I kind of realized that, you know, you don't need to do everything by yourself. There's tons of people available, go and ask for help. You know, if they are happy to, you know, give you for free, that's fine. But even, you know, pay for it, at least they'll save you 15, 20, 30 years of hard work. So that was a big learning curve. Came back and, um, started working with, uh, you know, started it, uh, company, uh, which did well. Then we, uh, Started a marketing agency which did really well for, you know, five, six years. Uh, I didn't do anything by myself actually. You know, gone and hired people, gone and worked with people like Frank Kern was one of my early mentors. And yeah, so I think exited that agency after five, six years. That's where we met when I was running the marketing agency. And um, yeah, after that I started thinking, you know, what I'm gonna do next, basically. Right. So. And then started working one day here, two days there, three days there. Kind of didn't know what I was going to do for a few years. I kind of, you know, just gone here and there, nothing. Kind of knew the path. The only reason I worked because I thought, okay, I've done that, company's been successful, but what's next for me? I didn't actually know what's next for me. So I kind of, you know, just worked, I said part time consulting for, for many years. And just recently, about a couple of years ago, I kind of now developed in a different model which I'm going to talk. Right.

Speaker A: So before we go there, I wanted to just explore that feeling because I know other people have that feeling. What was it like for you to be a little bit lost during that time? I mean, you didn't use the word lost. I don't want to put words in your mouth. What was that feeling like where you sort of thinking, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I'm, you know, picking up bits and pieces. But you're still thinking, still trying to decide on what's next.

Speaker B: Yeah, look, I think it's one of those feelings where you kind of feel that, hey, nothing is working for you. But I'm a big believer and for years and years and took me years to practice this. It doesn't come easy that the art of surrendering, right. And doing what you kind of love doing. So along the way, you know, teaching's been one of my passions. So I ran, uh, teaching classes after hours, coaching my own things just so that I help people. Right. So that was something which I kept doing, kept doing, kept doing just so that I have something happening on the side to help me, you know, keeping uh, that spark alive. But I kind of left in and surrendered it. Like I was like, okay, whatever comes, I'm just gonna do it, doesn't matter, uh, you know what it is and I'm not gonna say no to things which come my way. And that was the kind of path I chose. You know, let it sometime. And I Reckon most of us who work for somebody else for many, many, many years, and you get paid to solve problems, what happens is we try to solve everything in our own lives, Right. And, uh, I feel that it's completely the opposite, that, uh, solving or figuring it out or trying to work it out kind of doesn't work. Like, sometimes you just have to say, hey, I don't know, whoever you believe in, look up and say, hey, you know better than us, right?

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And so tell me a little bit about what happened to shift you out of that into this new venture, which we'll talk about very soon.

Speaker B: Yeah, nothing, I think is. Is. There wasn't any sort of point I would say, hey, shift. I was talking to somebody, uh, you know, in the US A couple of years ago, and just like any kind of, you know, gathering, we kind of sit together, people are talking, and I said, hey, I just do consulting. And, uh, because that's the language I used, and I do consulting a couple of days there, five days there, like, you know, there wasn't any fixed thing. Some people call it contracting, some people call it consulting. People have their own terminologies. So I did the same thing, but the guy I was talking to, he said, no, no, no, no. Uh, I think you're using a fractional model. And I was like, what is this fractional model? And he said, fractional is you just, you know, basically work with. Instead of working with one customer, you work with five or six, and that's. What are you doing? I said, yeah, pretty much. He said, yeah, that model is a fractional model. Instead of consulting, consulting is, you know, a bit different. And then you work as a fractional, um, you're running a fractional work rather than consulting. And that was a big change for me. Just to kind of wrap my head around how does that work? Then for last couple of years, I kind of dug on, deep into that work and I started to study it, understand it. I've been doing it, you know, and then, um, started working with other people and helping them as well.

Speaker A: So tell me a little bit more about the definition of fractional work. You said it's different to consulting. How is it different?

Speaker B: All right. So, uh, I think the biggest thing people need to understand is consulting is when we say consulting, we kind of saying, you know, I gonna work two hours. You just get paid for two hours or five hours or a day worth of work. Right? You're basically charging for your time spent. You're charging. You're working as a laborer. That's it. Right. There is no other model around it. There is no, you know, there is no path to get to the next level. Like, you know, if somebody else comes in, you get kicked out of that business, you still kind of go back. So there is nothing to look forward to. When I say fractional model or fractional practice, there is a pathway available. Right. So everybody kind of starts at one pathway called operator. We all operator. We work with some somebody and we kind of have stages where we go and do the work, you know, and then get to the next stage, which is advisory stage where you kind of only working there and you charge based on providing the advisory. So pricing structure within fractional practice is very different than charging per hour. Right. So if in a nutshell, what if I can say people still do similar things in consulting, but what we're doing is we're defining the line and making people understand it that instead of just selling your time, there is a different pathway available that you develop your own intellectual property. Instead of just going and working based on half a day, one day, there is a, ah, path available where you work on a defined scope and an outcome based, um, you know, engaged consulting kind of manner. So yeah.

Speaker A: Can you give me an example perhaps with a role in mind? Bring it to life.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Look at this. It doesn't apply to m. If you're just getting started at workplace, right. So uh, all those graduates, people thinking it doesn't apply to them, it applies to those people who have worked at a senior executive level. Yeah, right. So you have been, you know, cmo, cfo, sales director, uh, chief revenue officer, all that level. If uh, you worked in that sort of industry, that sort of, that sort of level in any organization, that is where you can actually start a fractional practice. What it means is instead of just working for one customer, you work for four or five or six customer, you can start as an operator. Meaning that you do the delivery work.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And then what you can do is you can become an advisor and you can hire the operators to actually do the work. So many people do it differently. Like I've got cto I work with. They he loves as an operator, right. Like he doesn't want to.

Speaker A: He's dirty in the work.

Speaker B: That's it. He doesn't want to run it like a practice. He doesn't want to have, you know, operators running with, working with him. So he's happy with that model. The only thing he had to do is just come up with defined scope and get paid for the outcome. Not by an hour. Yeah. So what we do is we kind of work with uh, creating your own intellectual property so that you can, you know, deliver on defined outcomes.

Speaker A: Right, right. Which is, which is because anytime you're on a timesheet or a time for hours worked or you're very limited. So this model sounds more expansive. Yeah.

Speaker B: And also I'll, uh, give you a simple example.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, it's the very basic example when a lot of people don't understand it is, you know, when you are in working for organization, you work there in a full time, the authority is implied, meaning that there is an uh, org structure available, that you are working as some sort of executive level. There is a structure and everybody kind of know that structure is there. Right. And the hardest part is, and people don't understand it, when you come from an external, you come from an outside, uh, and you start your own fractional or consulting or whatever you want to call it in the beginning, you start that that structure is not there. You need to have very clearly stating some of the things which people, you know, when you work full time has already been employed. So you have to be deliberate about certain things when you're starting something like this. So that's just a simple example that authority doesn't come if you just run it as a consulting work or as a fractional work. It has to be explicitly described and told and gone through it with the organization and CEOs rather than you. When you work full time, it's already part of your org structure.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, and I imagine there are other, other important, um, accountability steps in that as well. So it's authority, accountability as well as responsibilities.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think the main thing is taking the ownership of that very specific part of the business that you are responsible for it, uh, going fractional doesn't mean that, you know, responsibility disappears. No, no. I think we say that you're still an executive, you still are responsible for that part of uh, you know, that' tiny, probably part of the business. You are responsible. It doesn't actually matter who does the delivery. Right. But you need to take that responsibility.

Speaker A: And Jack, in your experience, really talking to people who are shifting to this mode, what's the benefit for the organization? Why would they just not hire you on a time per hour basis? Again, what is the benefit for them?

Speaker B: Yeah, look, I think the biggest thing at the moment what I'm seeing is uh, the first, you know, the benefit of not just hiring a full time. Right. Why not just hire a full time? It takes a bit of time at the moment. Right. So if you want to hire an exec, it's not just, you know, you go out into the market, you know somebody's going to be there tomorrow. Right. It takes a long time to hire it. The other one is what I'm seeing right now is uh, a role freeze that you just can't hire anybody full time. Right. It's just getting it harder and harder to hire somebody full time and then it comes to the pay structure. Right. It's just very different. What's the benefit? For all you know that there is a, what I've seen is kind of businesses between say 2 million to 50 mil.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Which this applies. Where they can't afford is a wrong word. Where they, they would rather spend that money somewhere else rather than just hiring somebody full time. Right. So it's not just one role. You can have many fractional execs in your leadership team rather than just like, you know, think of that as if you're just starting out and your revenue is about 5 to 7 mil. Instead of spending the entire budget on that 1 cm or CFO, you can have all that fractional team put together. Right?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: One of the, one of the things which I'm currently doing and it's kind of, I would say taking 20 to 30% of my time is working with the CEOs and founders and the boards and helping them understand how to put this model together in the business.

Speaker A: Can you imagine? Because it's quite different.

Speaker B: It's very different and I think because it's very new in this country, uh, especially in, with us in Australia. Right. It's very good in the UK because most of the people I work with are in UK and the US and their model has been developed really well. But I think what I'm seeing locally, it's not that uh, not that level yet. Uh, so that's why my job is, and I think few other people, we try to educate people and say hey, this is another model available for you to try it rather than just thinking hey, you can just hire a full time or a contractor.

Speaker A: I would imagine too that there's a benefit for organizations in consistency of service around that need without the, on um, cost or overhead that comes with bringing on an executive full time. Is that right? Am I making an assumption there?

Speaker B: No, no, absolutely, absolutely. Look, I think there is a lot of hidden benefits uh, which are kind of deep and uh, uh, every organization is different. We kind of start with the first, uh, you know, start talking about the availability, uh that you can get somebody onboarded very quickly. The second one is, uh, you know, the financial benefits, uh, you would rather spend that somewhere else and then you can have that. And also it's not that you have to have that team for the, you know, next 20 years. Uh, you gotta understand that every business has got, you know, levels and steps to get to the next level. Right. So this is one of those messy middles. And this is a solution for that middle part.

Speaker A: For that time. Exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah, for that time. So you can have the time for five years or six years once you get to the next level and you, you know, have people you can hire full time. Yeah, that, that's the way to do it.

Speaker A: Because the growth, hopefully you've, you've experienced growth and it justifies.

Speaker B: That's right. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker A: And so there is always, I always like to think about how AI and automation affects this. Any of these future workforce models that we're talking about. How does it affect this area that you're like executive fractional work that you're talking about?

Speaker B: Look, it makes it easy, to be honest, it just makes it so easy for us just now because in the past we had to hire a virtual assistant to do most of the work, right? The one which is now done by AI. So I reckon it's really useful. It's really helpful. Rather than hiring employees, uh, or virtual assistants, this kind of helps, having an AI or trained AI to actually do that for you. Not saying that virtual assistant's not required, but I think if, uh, you're running a fractional work, uh, early stages, when you're trying to figure out how things work, AI, just having that for yourself, it helps a lot. Right, so what are we doing? I'll give you an example of this early stages, when your practice is not developed that much and you only have a couple of clients, we have developed an AI for internal, for the people who we work with. So instead of just asking question and kind of struggling that you can ask the question, AI, like, you know, AI get a response back. So that kind of thing, it helps, but I think, uh, overall, and this is the overall job market, I think it's going to get worse and worse. Like I'm just talking about overall job market because of AI, I feel that's a big change coming and I think a lot of people are not prepared for it.

Speaker A: I do agree with you, Jag. I think that there's a, uh, inertia in a lot of executive teams at the moment just because they're so unsure about the future. It doesn't mean that there won't be jobs in the future, but it's that you. We're experiencing that inertia. And this model is one of the ways in which the executives can start thinking about. Thinking about things differently.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, uh, it's good to have that option available. You know, if I said traditionally I only knew a couple of options, right? Either you work for somebody else or either you start a business, right? You kind of have this. There is nothing in the middle. So, uh, what we're doing is saying, hey, there is a fractional practice model available in the middle where you don't need to create a big business. Right. It's not creating that, you know, I don't know, $300 million worth of business with revenue. Uh, it's a simple practice where you work with four or five clients and, uh, you know, have the good amount of revenue coming in. You can scale that and have many operators working inside. But it's up to you, right? You decide which way you want to go. But many people, I've noticed, they're happy with four or five clients and they, you know, and that some advisory work, 30, 40% advisory, and a few of them operators that they're good.

Speaker A: Exactly. Now you've founded fractionalpractice.com. tell me about that.

Speaker B: Uh, this was very interesting. After I had a chat with some folks at the U.S. the intention was, hey, how do I make it better? Like, you know, how do I make it better from my side? Kind of started putting things together. It took me about a year to put all the standards together. So the intention behind fractionalpractice.com is, um, creative standards around fractional work. So not just going out and doing the work, you want to have certain standards, how to operate it. Right. So it applies on both sides. When an organization hire an executive who work as a professional exec, they understand the, you know, what that person is going to bring. Because everybody at the moment, if you look at it, and most people, they run the way they think it's right. So there is no common standard available. So think of that as like, you know, about, I don't know, 20, 30 years ago, the way the project management standards were in place, right. There was nothing. Everybody kind of managed their project the way they thought was right. And then the PMI came in and then they, you know, pretty much put the standards together.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: So what we trying to do is pretty much the same way, um, trying to put the standards around it, make sure. That, you know, you follow this standard and then you can have, uh, you know, legit running fractional practice, which applies to both sides. The organization is happy and the executive is happy as well because they're running that. Compliant.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And so fractional practice is a, uh, is where, for example, people who are trying to move into this practice space can get information and can build capability around applying.

Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. So we, yeah, we do two things, and one is, uh, we manage the standards. That's the main thing. That's our holy grail for everything. Right. This is a standard we follow. And then we have to, you know, if you're already running a practice, like most of the CFOs and CMOs, you know, they have a good practice going on. What we do is we just do the audit and make sure that aligns with the standard. What happens is when you have that compliance standard, you can go to the organization and say, hey, we have been compliant. Right. We've been audited. You know, we're not just running some random stuff. We've been audited by the external party. And this is how my practice is running. Right.

Speaker A: So let me ask you this question about. And I like the idea of standards, particularly when something is new and novel, because it lends credibility, but also trust. Because I can imagine a lot of boards, a lot of executives, teams, CEOs, are, uh, thinking, well, they're just used to a consulting model. For example, they know, they think of it as overly expensive. Sometimes you get consulting that doesn't quite fit with the organization, so it doesn't get embedded in the organization. Whereas this is more about having an, uh, ongoing fractional service in a way that is outcome based, that then fits with the organization. And so I really like that idea. Tell me more about owning those outcomes, though, because I think that's also the differentiator here that we're talking about.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'll give you run it. Exactly. So this is what I do. Uh, this is, uh, um, you know. Yes, I run the fractionalpractice.com as a standard and we do the audits and formations. But I run my own practice and I've been doing it for a while. So it's a sales leadership practice. Um, one of the outcomes which I own, and it's all about revenue for me.

Speaker A: Me.

Speaker B: Right. So people hire, uh, people like myself, uh, just to own the revenue. Like, you know, they. They want to increase the revenue by 20, 30, 40%. Uh, my job is to make sure that I own that outcome not just uh, saying to somebody, hey, I just manage your sales team. I manage it. You know, most people when we start, when I started, right. So I kind of follow the same path because when you work for a, for a company for a full time, you kind of get into that management mode and we did that. Right. You know, I did the same thing that I became sort of manager of something. I kind of forgot to own the outcomes so I had to come out of that. And I think that was a big change for me personally. That not just talk about, you know, uh, not just talk about that. These are the way people need to run it. Basically have that responsibility, take the ownership of that, that part of the business. So my job is to make sure the team is trained. I do coaching with all the salespeople, I review their calls, I review their demos. Uh, that's my job as part of that, right. So CEO doesn't need to know that how I do it. But that's my part of the job that I take the responsibility. I take the responsibility of the pipeline. I make sure I speak to the marketing team, I make sure the leads coming through. That is my role and I take that responsibility. I do that in five hours or I may do that in one hour. Uh, but that's my job, right? So if I think of as a traditional terms that I'm only going to do in five hours because I'm going to get paid for that much, that kind of doesn't work in that model. Just because I'm responsible, right. It doesn't matter how long I may pick up a call phone and call somebody at 7pm or just. I know it's, you know, some people think it's late, but I'm responsible, right. Because I own it. So I don't look at the clock, I make sure I do the work. It doesn't matter what time it is, doesn't matter what we do. Yesterday I was reviewing somebody's about 35 minute demo and making notes to make sure that we have a standard template available within the company. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to create a standard template for playbook for all the salespeople based on my reviews. So it takes a bit of time. Yeah. So yeah, just owning the. And that's the responsibility I own. And I know many of other execs like CMOs, CFOs, they do the same thing in their part as well. And that's the education which I'm trying to do that with the CEOs and board members that hey, there is a path available. You don't need to worry about ours. You make sure that you give it to somebody this part of the business and they are responsible for it. They'll run with it and they'll make sure everything is done. So yeah, that's the education part of it. Yeah.

Speaker A: Because I think in the past we've thought about, whenever I've heard about fractional staff or fractional, even fractional consulting, that immersive uh, experience is definitely there. So two or three or four clients, but they only get a day of my time or half a day of my time. And sometimes, and then I'm, I might sign up to some key result areas but they're only paying me for half a day. So they, they're not going to get that. I believe really for future workforce, anytime that you're tracking hours, the incentives are wrong because if you, that's right. If you incentivize people properly, you do not have to worry about hours. It's, it's actually an input. I mean you can track them if you want to. You can do activity based costing if you want to. But it, but it's um, it's, it's. You should be, you should be really focusing on outcomes.

Speaker B: Yeah. And especially at our level. Like to be honest, it's at this level that if you're still tracking hours, it's embarrassing. Like you're telling your CMO that you have done five hours and that person gonna say what are you talking about?

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: It's even embarrassing to. Even at this level. Right. Exec team are responsible. They own the outcome, they manage the outcome. Um, and it's not ours at all. And I think that's why I'm um, really deliberate about the words we use. Just because if you say fractional work and a lot of people run fractional work, they do it as a consulting way means that they invoice people for four hours. You know, they invoice people for a day. That's a fractional work. And they just happy with what we say is as a fractional practice. So there is a difference between fractional work and a fractional practice, practice run in a very different way way. And uh, we, we want people to run it as a practice and, and have a standards in place. Not just uh, you know like selling yourself as a, as a laborer.

Speaker A: Yeah. Actually I should have asked you earlier too because with standards comes an idea that there is some benchmark or some uh, best practice so far. Yeah. So, so how did you develop the standards. Because I think that's really important for people to know.

Speaker B: Look, I think it took a bit of time to do this, to be honest. It wasn't sort of straight away it happened. Worked with a lot of people who are in the industry and they've been working for a while. What we said in the standard is if you want to run a successful fractional practice, there are sort of nine controls. We say controls, and when we review it, we review those controls like, you know, your positioning control, meaning that how do you position yourself in the market? We review that, that your offer control. How do you, you know, your offer is in the market? What are your, you know, scope, uh, what are the deliverables, what are the activities look like? That's your offer. And how do you price your offer? And similar to the deal structure, how do you actually convert people? So these are the controls, right? When we do the audit and we do the benchmark and we say, hey, these are the minimum things we need. And a lot of people, you know, when, when you are running it for a while, you kind of do what you think is right without any standards in place. And what are we people is don't just run it like a, like a job, you know, or a consulting. Don't become an employee. Run it like a practice and have these controls in place. And when you have these nine controls in place, you can measure it against it and you can say, hey, this controls is missing. Then I can come and install this control for you. Right? That kind of thing. Yeah. So I think it's a, uh, standards. The best way to figure out if you're running in a legit practice is to do an audit. We do the audit, we ask for things. Hey, these are things available. And then we kind of do a tick in the box kind of thing.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. And what's next Jag in terms of, uh, fractional practice? What's your dream going forward?

Speaker B: I think, look, we've been working behind the scene for, uh, a while now, and I, uh, think the next dream is to take it to the market now, let people understand it, become more visible, educate both sides, and, you know, more and more people need to know, know this and run it like a legit and govern practice, not just, uh. And I think my job is to educate more people, you know, both sides, organization, as well as the, uh, you know, people who want to run it as a fractional practice.

Speaker A: Fantastic. And I know you're a great communicator, so I wish you well with that I'm sure that, uh, I'm sure that we're going to hear more about this and perhaps we can do another recap maybe in the six months or nine month mark and see how you're going. So happy.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: To do that again because I think this is a really, it's a novel, interesting, exciting way for people to think about their own career, but also for organizations to think about how they're going to structure the future workforce. I think there's some innovation there that we, that, that bodes really well with that future work workforce that, um, question that many people are thinking about. So I really, I love that, I love that you're bringing systems together and, and offering something for individuals too.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you.

Speaker A: All right, thank you so much for your time, Jag. I really appreciate it. How can people find you? And we'll put some links as well.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I think the best way to go and check it out, uh, fractionalpractice.com and you find pretty much everything there and you know, look at me or on LinkedIn, find me there and connect. Great.

Speaker A: All right, thank you so much. Thanks, Jo.

Speaker B: Thank you. Thanks for having me.