450: DMO Hiring is Broken with Collin Norman

Speaker A: Foreign. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Destination Marketing Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Stoker, and we have got a fun show for you today. Uh, I want to start with my monologue and it's been interesting because I've just loved this, uh, process and workflow of using LinkedIn conversations that I start on LinkedIn to decide what I'm going to talk about on the show. And I've posted some things that I thought were going to generate a lot of discussion and didn't generate any discussion. And then I've also posted some things that I thought weren't going to be terribly interesting to the industry and they've kind of gone crazy. And this is one that I thought was kind of right down the middle. Like, I thought it might be interesting to some people, but I was not prepared for just how interesting the people in the industry would think it is. So I thought it was worth talking about as a monologue here. And it's, uh. I launched a, uh, newsletter sharing the fact that the state of Tennessee launched a program called, yeah, It's Real and it's a photo certification program that can actually tell you if there's any AI enhancements in an image so that visitors can actually go check an image and see if the thing that they are wanting to go visit in Tennessee is actual, actually a thing or, or if it's just AI. Right. And I, I think it's an interesting program because if you look at, across the board in, uh, just like consumer behavior today, AI is becoming a more and more trusted partner to every individual as a source of truth. Right. Um, my daughter goes straight to chat GPT now, uh, and she's 15 years old, whereas three years ago she probably would have Googled things. And we're seeing so much more that AI is becoming a, uh, source of truth. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm not necessarily going to comment on that today because that's not really the purpose of the M. Monologue. But consumer behavior wise, this is absolutely where things are going. And when you look at that, there's so much trust being built with the different platforms. As far as consumer behavior goes, the one place where that trust does not seem to be, uh, continuing is, is in imagery. Because when it comes to travel, authenticity is so important to whether or not somebody is going to book a trip and visit a destination. And if we can't trust that the imagery that we're seeing in ads is an actual place, is an actual representation of the destination, we're going to start questioning whether or not we want to book a trip there because we don't even know if what we're seeing is real. And that's why when Tennessee launched this program of, uh, you know, you have a place where you can go see, are these images real? And does this really exist in the state of Tennessee? Kind of crazy that we have to launch a program like that. But I think it's a brilliant move by the state of Tennessee to build something like this. For one, it's an attention getter. And we all know that attention is the first step in building a relationship with a consumer. If you don't have their attention, they don't care about you. And then it's a trust engine, because if you're getting that as a source of truth, saying, yes, this is a real image and it represents the state of Tennessee, well, now we're building trust with our audience. So if you think about the state DMO and what they're doing there, they're getting attention through this program and they're using that attention to generate trust with the state and build a more authentic visitor experience. I think this is a really fascinating strategy and I love what Tennessee has done. Now, the reason it generated a lot of commentary on my LinkedIn, there's a few different components of the discussion that were happening. Number one, a lot of photographers jumped in and said, yes, we want photography to be real. Now, I'm going to be the first to say I believe there's some self preservation there. Right. Like photographers, of course, are going to jump on and say that we need to keep photography real. Right. And so while I do think they have inherent, uh, motives to that, I think they're right. I think photography, especially when we're representing what's in a destination, should be real. That being said, years ago, uh, my team was building an image for, uh, the five different national parks here in Utah. And they superimposed physical components of each national park into one image. And I do think that there's a scenario, and that was before AI and everything. So the question is, would that have technically been a violation of the program? Is that, is that an inauthentic thing? Because we're just trying to represent the five national parks in one image. So I think there's some kind of logistical questions that this brings up, like what's okay and what's not. And my friend Tony Carney, who's done a lot of work on, uh, AI and tourism and the connection between, uh, the two things here, he brought up he said, well, hold on. We've been retouching and editing photography, color correcting for a long time. So where's the line like, how do we know if we're doing something that we shouldn't be doing with AI? These LLMs came out in 2022, but I mean, we've been editing photos using a version of artificial intelligence for a very long time. And even the photographers who jumped in on the comment section and said, hey, we need to keep photography real. Well, wait a second, you color correct and retouch your photos as well. So I think the conversation of where is the line between an AI, uh, influenced photo and an AI generated photo? I think that's an interesting conversation to watch. And I saw it unfold, uh, on my, my LinkedIn post. My opinion is I think there's a big difference between enhancing a photo and fabricating a photo with AI. And I think AI is absolutely appropriate for us to leverage for a variety of different reasons because it opens up the opportunity for creativity. If you're using AI to enhance a photo in some way, if you're fabricating the photo with AI and saying this is a direct representation of our destination using that photo. And then of course I think that's uh, uh, kind of a breaking of the trust that you have with the audience. And so it's a great campaign by the state of Tennessee. Congrats to them for putting this together. I think it's a really unique idea. I think it's an attention getting idea and I think it builds trust with their audience, which is essentially the purpose of a dmo, to get attention, inspire trust, and then leverage that trust to inspire action and visitation to the destination. I think they are delivering on their purpose very well with this campaign. So with that I want to bring in Colin Norman. And Colin is the executive Director of Visit Clearfield County, Pennsylvania. Colin, what do you think of this whole discussion about leveraging AI with photography?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, well, it's interesting, you know, and thanks for coming to me with that one because, you know, I've been doing a lot of photography here lately for my dmo. Um, I think it's an interesting discussion. Um, yeah, we have been retouching, right? We have been editing, um, photos for years. Um, and, but I think it's about capturing that real emotion, right? It's about capturing that real moment. You know, we, we do tricks also within photography, right? You know, black and white or, or a slow shutter speed or something like those lines which, you know, tells that story, tells that part of that that in that image. Um, but it's still a real image and it's still something that actually happened. You know, just, just last week, two uh, weeks ago, I was sh. For the local county fair, uh, and we ended up posting tons of these photos, um, that I was taking on our Facebook page and our social media and uh, exploded. We didn't do any um, uh, money behind that and we got like half million views over the course of a week which was for us was pretty cool. And it was all because we were capturing real content, real people having fun in Clearfield County. And I think people were just excited to see that.

Speaker A: I love that. So tell us, I mean you mentioned photography, right? But tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to Clearfield County, Pennsylvania.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, well it was um, probably an indeed posting or a ah, posting on tourism iq uh is where I probably found it. But I born and raised in Smithfield, Virginia, um, the ham capital of the world. Uh, and I have been trying to get back into the destination marketing world for eons. I kind of worked all the way through college and high uh, doing that sort of stuff and working in museums and um, working as an event coordinator for a number of years and a brand manager, um, for a little while for a food company that shall remain nameless down there. But anyway had a good fun time with all of it. But it's just never really my thing and I've always just enjoyed the destination marketing, uh, aspect. And so I threw a wider net and ended up here in Pennsylvania. So.

Speaker A: Awesome. Now where did photography come into play? Were you for the food company taking pictures of the hams for the website or what's the.

Speaker B: No, it, it, it. I confess it's been more of a hobby, uh, here and there. But it's strange how those hobbies will turn into job duties after a while when people figure out, you know, what you're doing. Um, so you gotta be, gotta be careful with that. But uh, no, I just, it was a thing I was, I, I never really did any photography for the, for the um, food company or anything of that nature. I did do a little bit for like the museum I used to work for and um, you know, supple of the events here and there just to snapping a couple shots here and there. But um, it's become more of a thing since coming in here into this DMO and sort of wearing a lot of different hats. You know, being the content creator, being the um, you know, just running everything here is kind of fun.

Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. Well, I guess, uh, first thing that I want to cover is you mentioned that you may have found the job on tourism iq. Indeed. You can't remember. That was an unpaid reference there. Right? Like the fact.

Speaker B: Unpaid. I was not paid. I was definitely not paid to say it. But, um, I think a lot of this conversation we might be having today stems from, uh, a lot of the job postings that I was able to find through to tourism, you know, my tourism iq.

Speaker A: So that's awesome. Yeah. So for anybody that's listening, there are hundreds, I think, of jobs job listings in the destination marketing space on tourism iq. And so if you're looking, that might be a great place to start, or if you're looking to post a job, there's guys like Colin out there looking for gigs that you might be able to find. Uh, I do think it would be helpful for us. You're now the executive director of Visit Clearfield County, Pennsylvania. I want to understand what is Visit Clearfield county as a destination. Give us the 30,000 foot profile of Clearfield County.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, we just went through a whole rebranding, uh, uh, campaign. So, uh, this is all sort of new, uh, sort of stuff. We used to be this halfway to everywhere because we're located right on I 80, uh, out here in Pennsylvania, which kind of runs right through the middle of the state. Um, and we're kind of right out here in the middle of the state. But now we are the something, um, wild is waiting, uh, out here in, uh, Clearfield County. So but we're that destination that's sort of the gateway to the Pennsylvania wilds for somebody who's two to four hours away, which is mostly going to be like, um, Washington D.C. or Pittsburgh, uh, or Philly or some of those locations if they want to get away, um, to a location where they can lose a little cell service. Right. And they can get out and they can experience nature, but they still want to, uh, enjoy a place that's got a nice, uh, beer or a nice dinner, um, or they want to experience a dinosaur park or they want to have an eight pound hamburger for dinner. Something wild is waiting here for you in Cliff County.

Speaker A: I'm sorry. Um, yeah, did, did you say an eight pound hamburger, Colin?

Speaker B: I did. I said, I said an eight pound hamburger. We've got Denny's. Ah, Denny's Beer Barrel Pub here. He's been featured on the Food Network a few times. Um, but he's uh, you can, I think he goes as much as like 25 pounds, but you can split that between two people. So.

Speaker A: Wow. Wow, an eight pound hamburger. That just sounds like, like debt that you pay for.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're having a good time. We're having a good time, so.

Speaker A: Oh, awesome. Okay, well, so Something Wild is Waiting is kind of the description of Clearfield County. Um, what was that rebranding process like?

Speaker B: Uh, well, it was fast. Um, I started October of last year. Um, and I think we're filming this early August of 26. Um, and uh, we hired on a marketing agency, um, and helped uh, us with collecting uh, the data, going through the whole process. And by May, uh, we had approved uh, this new branding. Um, and that was conducting interviews, conducting pollfish surveys, um, you know, and really asking the question, what, what do people care about in Clifford County? You know, what is it that excites them to come here? Or what do they know about it? Or what do they not know about it? And I think, I think actually we found through that rebranding process there was a lot of like, people just didn't know about it out here. Um, and uh, so I think that just goes to all the old branding, all the old, uh, marketing, um, strategies and tactics were clearly just not working very well for us. So um, it was, it was, it was time for a, for, for an update.

Speaker A: So Colin, it sounds like you, you got into the destination, you got right to work. I kind of the reason we decided to have this conversation actually has to do with before you got hired at Clearfield county and when you and I met, I, uh, really appreciated you reaching out because you, you hit me up on LinkedIn and you said, hey, I've been leveraging Tourism IQ to, to look for a job. I've had some interesting experiences. But what I'm finding is that the hiring process in the destination marketing space is broken. And I thought that was an interesting comment because I think we as destination, uh, marketing professionals have been focused so much on promoting the destination, on protecting our funding, on dealing with stakeholders. We have so much on our plates that one of the simple workflows that is very consistent is that especially with how many people move from one place to the other in the industry, hiring is an important component of what we do. And it sounds like we've maybe lost focus a little bit on the hiring side. So Colin, I'd love for you to. And of course without naming names because I don't think anybody needs to be directly called out or attacked. But at the same time it's good for people to hear what your experience was like so that if any of the, the processes that you're going to describe are happening in a destination. We need to get them fixed. So I'd love to have you maybe start there with what was your overall experience like as you were trying to find a job in our space?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's uh, it's been a little bit all over the place and you know, and again, I also want to be clear, like I'm not here to name and shame anybody. Right. You know, I'm, I'm very happy with, with where I've landed and the things I'm getting to work on. Like, you know, totally rebranding, total new website, new welcome center that we're building, and new visitor guide with most of my own photo photography in it. Um, you know, those are all cool things that I would not have gotten to do at any of these other locations. But yeah, I think going through some of m. These interviews, uh, there were just some common threads of like. What's so weird about it is, is you know, when we're, when we're doing a marketing campaign, right, like we develop, we read the data, we know what we're going after, we have a target audience. Like, we have, we know where we're going to market, we know all those sorts of things. But for whatever reason, when it came to the hiring process, it just seemed like we lost all of those skills, um, even though they're very transferable. Um, even going back to some of your conversation, you did an episode recently on the RFP process being broken and destinations being deserving better. I think if you had just changed procurement to HR and hiring process, you know, to rfp, it would have been the same conversation almost in some ways.

Speaker A: Oh, draw that line. Tell me, why is that close to the same conversation?

Speaker B: Well, because I think, you know, clearly everybody here has got some, uh, rules and regulations that they have to follow. Right. From a, from a HR perspective, you know, maybe there's a county government rules, maybe there's state laws that they have to follow union regulations and this, that and the other. Um, so, so I think that there's some hampering there and that, that, that we need to do better jobs of executives, uh, or staff, you know, getting with those HR teams, getting with those folks who don't work in our office on a day to day basis and don't understand exactly what it is we're looking for. Um, and then try to streamline that process as much as possible from like a bureaucratic, you know, um, ah, issue there.

Speaker A: Okay, interesting. Okay, so, so you feel like the Same issues we find in procurement and the RFP process. You could compare that to a job posting and the interview process. And I think you're right. Like if, if we're going through the process of trying to hire a partner, and we're not great at that, we probably have the same problems when trying to hire an employee. So let's, let's go through your experience. I think that would be an interesting. Just tell the story of what the process was like.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think, I think the one where I reached out where I was like, dude, we got to talk about this, right? You know, um, and uh, there was this interview I went on, it was probably a year or two ago, uh, this point. And um, you know, I was interviewed for, for an executive, uh, level role. Um, and I ended up going through, I think it was four interviews, right, which included um, an in person, um, component to uh, one of those interviews. And I think the whole process from like rejection to, you know, from application to rejection, I think was like four or five months. And I think for the DMO it was even longer because like they had to have that posting up for like, you know, 90 days or something because of their regulations. Right. And that first interview I think I went through was a zoom panel. It had like four people on it. That was like an hour. Um, the second one, it was the in person one where I spent a couple days up there and, and met with about six people and I had to do this whole song and dance presentation to it, um, that I had to work on for a few weeks ahead of time. Right. Um, and then there was a third one that included like over 20 some people were on this zoom call. I'm not kidding you, over 20 some people. And they were all just like lobbing questions left and right. Right. Um, and then there was a final one on one. And I think during, and during that process I was asked for a start date. I was asked, you know, what do they think of their budget? Like they showed me their budget, right. Um, and, and I was shown around their facility. Like I was like, like I'm the guy, right? And then I wasn't, you know, um, and I was rejected by an email. Um, and, and they, they sort of refused to have a follow up call and sort of discuss any of that feedback or, or my interview performance or what I could have done differently or better. Um, and uh, so it just, just kind of weird to have a, uh, experience. If you asked me to go through all that and just reject you by the email.

Speaker A: Well, and that. That was one destination you interviewed with, with multiple destinations in the process. It sounds like this one, if I was to infer here, may have been the most egregious because, you know, you had so many steps. You were kind of walked pretty far down the path, it feels like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And. And 20 people on a zoom call. I don't care what you're interviewing for. That's excessive. I. I would say. Uh, but at the same time, I know that DMOS have a lot of stakeholders and boards, and they do. Um, this. This is most decision making by committee industry that I've ever experienced. And so I can kind of see what led to that zoom call. Right. Uh, of 20 people, was that the only destination that you had that type of an experience with, or are we talking that's just a microcosm of the overall experience that you had? Okay. 2026 has already been a whirlwind of travel for me. I've had the opportunity to speak at several conferences, and I'm getting up early in the morning to go speak at another conference. It has been an incredible ride, and I'm really grateful to all the conferences that have had me come speak. Uh, the second half of the year, as of right now, I've got a few speaking openings. And if you. Or your event, whether it's a governor's conference or you're an association, if you're looking for a speaker to come talk about the issues that are facing our industry today, I'm confident I can come in and give your attendees a great experience. So if you'd like me to speak at your conference, my email is adamathebrandrevolt.com hit me up, and I'll see if there's a place in my schedule to be able to attend your conference and provide value to your attendees.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that that's a really good example of it. And, you know. Yeah, I think in that case, you know, there was just way, what. Way too many chefs in the kitchen.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know, somebody didn't get that early memo. I mean, who asked somebody for a start date and then doesn't. Doesn't go forward? Right. Somebody. Somebody didn't understand the goal at the end of that, but I think there's other ones. And I think this is, this is. This is all about, like, resource management and time and effort that we're all talking about here. You know? You know, we opened up this thing about, like, how we're dealing with all these stakeholders and managing all these people and all these Things that we have to deal with. Why are we grinding gears when it comes to this, this hiring process? You know, one of the ones I talked to, they wanted as a, uh, start, right, the first opening round of this interview. No phone call, no anything. They wanted me to do a two hour presentation to their, uh, county administrators or commissioners or whoever it was, um, and go through this whole rigor, moral. And that was the start of our relationship. I don't even know these people, they just know my resume. Um, and it just seems like what a time waster compared to, um, you know, there's, there's another location that I applied for. And um, they gave me a screener call. Um, and the HR director and the director, you know, called me, explained a couple things about this job over a phone call. And this was a five minute call, right? And within that five minutes I knew I didn't want the job because it, you know, just wasn't my thing. Um, there were some stuff that they had left out of the job posting. And so there was no up and back and forth, There was no hotel stays, nobody got reimbursed for anything. Nobody had to spend hours doing a presentation, nobody had to sit through anything. It was just a five minute call. And you know, why are we not doing more of that? Like, we're quick, you know, fail fast, right?

Speaker A: You know, so you know what, you, you drew the parallel earlier to the RFP process. And I just thought that was such a good parallel because I recently had an RFP that we responded to and it was for a rebrand, for a destination, and we were selected as a finalist for the rfp. And the question they sent over the day before was, we see that you didn't address your plan for research in the RFP response. Is that something that is included? And we went back and we scoured. We're like, what did we miss here? We scoured the entire rfp. Sure enough, there was nothing about research in that RFP or any of the documentation we had received to that point. And you know, it was just kind of, again, it's like you say it was a frustrating experience because the criteria that you're trying to respond to isn't clear. And then it's like, well, wait, why didn't you address this criteria? And I, uh, want to speak specifically to one of the things that you mentioned. You experienced the two hour first meeting when, what if there was something in your experience that disqualified you for the role? What if you don't know if you want to work for that organization? Yet, um, I think it's a great example of destinations as a whole need to just like we need to put ourselves in the place of the visitor because that's one part of the process that actually there's a lot of thought that goes into it. There's a lot of uh, connection that goes into it. How do we inspire people to come to this destination? We put a ton of thought into that, but putting the same level of thought into how do we inspire someone to come work in this destination or for this organization. The same level of thought clearly didn't go into it in a couple of these experiences that you had. And I would argue that uh, especially knowing that how many people are involved in a hiring decision at a destination, like in an executive director role, we've probably got the whole board involved, we've probably got a few stakeholders that are not on the board involved and you're doing a two hour presentation when we don't even know if you're the guy. Right. And so I think that's a, I don't know, I think that's a representation that the process is broken. Which is what you led with when you suggested we have this conversation. Anything you'd add there?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it, well, I mean especially into um, the rfp, you know, making sure that you have everything exactly listed, making sure you have all those questions. Because I think even at the end the, when I got that email rejection after that whole, you know, months long process, the one thing that they dinged me on was something that they never asked me about and we never discussed. And it seems as though that that was a large component of something that they felt that was part of their organization that I didn't know because you know, I don't work there, I'm not from there, you know, and so there was some things there that I just feel like, you know, make sure you have got all of those um, you know, details out there and, and if there's something specific, you know, make sure you're asking about it.

Speaker A: So now there's going to be some skeptics for sure as they listen to this and they're going to say, well, what did Colin say in that last interview that caused them to flip the script or change their mind? Right. And so I, I would want to at uh, least kind of put yourself in their shoes and say, okay, from their perspective, what may have happened that caused that. Now before you go too far into that, I will say I'm drawing the parallel to the RFP process. I always ask hey, are you willing to share with us where we went wrong so that we can improve for the future? And I actually can learn a lot about a destination and the people that work there by how they respond to that question, you know, um, and so anyway, I'd love to have you address what the skeptics are probably going to ask. Sure. When they hear.

Speaker B: That's a very fair assessment. Um, but, you know, I think I always end my interviews with sort of the question of is there anything that I've said today or is anything you read that would prevent you from, um, bringing me to the next level or, you know, making sure that I'm your top candidate? So I always allowed them time to suggest something I didn't say. Right. Or something I could go back and edit, um, for them. Um, and I think in this process I asked that question and um, literally I was, wow, we've never gotten that question before and never once asked me about startup experience, which was what they dinged me for was the fact that they felt like I didn't have enough startup experience, which I thought was really weird because that was a great destination and they have some great assets and I wish them all the success in the whole wide world. And I know they eventually did hire somebody like a year later. And um, you know, I, they're, they're fantastic and I wish them all the best success. Um, but, but I think, you know, again, it just, it boiled down to somebody not knowing that end goal and not having all the details out there.

Speaker A: You now are in control of a destination. Right. You're the executive, uh, director of Visit Clearfield County.

Speaker B: I like to think some days I'm in control, but I'm really pretty certain it's my assistant director who's in control.

Speaker A: But maybe control was the wrong word. But at least you're the, you're the buck stops with you. And I would love to understand, I mean, after going through this process, what is the ideal hiring strategy that you plan to implement if you haven't already at, uh, Visit Clearfield County?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, well, like I said, it's going to start with a screener call.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know, I think it's, it's going to start with kind of reading through that data and reading through some of these places. You know, I think one of the conversations I had, um, with another DMO that I was the, I was interviewing with, they told me that they had interviewed in like, Zoom call. Like they had spent time, hours with these people over 20 some candidates. And you know, I'M I'm a writer too, so. And, and you know, I've done some, like, writing competitions and things like that. And generally speaking, when you're reading somebody's work, you sort of start to know who's got it and who doesn't, right? And I just got to think, like, you guys got to get a little sharper on reading through some of these resumes and, um, you know, figuring out, you know, does this person actually know what they're talking about? And then have that five minute screen call. So, like me, it would be going through these resumes, making sure they're correct, um, spending a few five minutes with these folks on a phone call, bringing them in, having a zoom call or something, um, and really having a core group that understands the goal of what we're trying to do and what we're trying to fill, um, and really having an understanding of what the organization lacks, um, and what it is that we need. And I think the best fun part about being the executive director here is. I know what I don't know. There's a bunch of stuff that I don't know. I don't know hardly anything about elk. I'm about to learn a lot about elk coming this fall. Um, but my assistant director knows all that, so she's fantastic at filling in those gaps, um, for my knowledge and things like that.

Speaker A: Step one, start with a screener call. Who should be running that screener call? Is that the hiring manager? Is that, uh, you know, is that the office manager who's doing the screening as a delegated project? What. Who should be doing that?

Speaker B: I'd say it's probably two. It's the hiring manager. And maybe, you know, HR or something. If you had that, um, you know, just, just kind of go through those real quick and maybe that's 10 people or something, right? And then you cull that down to about three.

Speaker A: But the purpose of that screener call is to just identify. We're not deciding we want to hire this person. This is, do they meet the criteria that we've established for this role and do they fit our culture? Like, those would probably be the two things that I want to understand in that screener call. Correct?

Speaker B: Yep, correct.

Speaker A: Okay, step two, after the screener call.

Speaker B: Yeah, step two, I think it's, uh, you know, then it's, it's, it's pulling those three, four people that you've selected and spend a little bit more time with them.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And I think at that point it's, uh, either some sort of one on one or some sort of, you know, two or three on one. I think you start getting more about four and five and six like that. That gets rough. There's a little too many opinions that are floating around at that point. Um, and obviously this changes, right? You know, like you were mentioning, if it's an executive director role, you probably are going to have some more outside stakeholders that are in and out of this sort of stuff. But for some of these coordinators or some of these manager roles, my God, why are you spending eight hours interviewing, grilling these people? These little coordinators are straight out of college. They're not ready for that.

Speaker A: Uh, uh, again, step two, the purpose then is to really get to know the person. You want to understand how they tick, how they think. You want to understand if they have the emotional intelligence, the mental intelligence needed to fulfill the role. Uh, and so I would say that that deep dive is to really get to know and understand the person clearly. Um, and you can evaluate their preparedness for the position that you're bringing them into. Right. Is that a fair kind of description of step two?

Speaker B: 100%. Yeah, I think that's a very fair assessment.

Speaker A: Okay. So if someone has made it past step one, the screener call, and step two, where you really get to know the motivations and intentions of the person who's interviewing for the role. Step three, in my mind, should only happen with people that you're truly considering to be somebody that can meet the needs of the role and somebody that you might be willing to hire. So what a step, step three look like after you've gone through those first two screenings?

Speaker B: Yeah, step three, I think it's, it could be slightly more, um, you know, maybe it's taking them out the lunch or something. Maybe it's something a little more, um, you know, we're in hospitality, right? You know, like we, we should be. You know, how do you, how do they deal in an environment like that, you know, how do they conduct themselves, you know, in places like that? So, so I think that that's, that's an opportunity to kind of get that real one on one, that culture fit.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Just to double check that, like you've already, you know, round two, maybe you already saw them do a presentation or maybe they already answered all the right questions. And um, but round three should probably just be that, that culture check. And if it makes all the right checks, get it done.

Speaker A: Yeah, I had a, uh, I had a guy one time tell me that the way, the way he decides is, would somebody fit his culture is If I was stuck in the airport with them for three hours on a layover, would I be miserable or enjoy myself? And I thought that was a kind of a funny way to think about it, because if you use that as your barometer, it helps you understand quickly, will this person match our culture or not? Because if you want to be stuck in an airport with them, I can tell you, you don't want to be stuck in an office with them either. Yeah.

Speaker B: And we're in DMOs and most of us are like, what, like offices of three or four. You're going to see this person a lot. Like, you know, and you're going to attack them a lot. So you better, better have a good cultural fit. And I think, quite frankly, the cultural fit is probably more important than any of the skills, because I can teach anybody how to market the skills and all that other sort of stuff. It's that culture, it's that mindset, it's that willingness, you know, to be involved, to be open to that hospitality sort of mindset. Um, you know, those are, those are all the things that are more important to me than somebody who knows how to run an ad on Facebook.

Speaker A: So based on what I'm hearing, step three is that kind of like, okay, we're serious about this person, so we're going to do a little bit of a deeper dive. We're going to find out if we can work well with them, that might be taking them out to lunch, that's spending a little more time with them, whatever. Right. If there's a step four, it should be targeted follow up based on unanswered questions from the first three. Three things or an offer letter. Uh, is that fair to say?

Speaker B: I'd say that's. That's fair. I mean, yeah, if there's still questions after three, like, I guess ask them. But like, you should have understood the process earlier on. You should have already had those answers. You know, know, got them. But, but yeah, if there's any sell lingering, absolutely. Get them done.

Speaker A: So if in the first three rounds we didn't get all the information that we need, we as a dmo, probably need to adjust our hiring process. Yep. Okay, super helpful. And I think we, uh, we've at least given a, I would say a rough framework for destinations to think about that process in. In very kind of clear steps. I'd love to have you maybe flip it now. And for those that are looking for a new job or are about to go through the hiring process, what would you recommend? For those that are looking what do they need to do to make themselves as marketable as possible?

Speaker B: Well, I think certainly there's the whole. Run your resume through an AI system and make sure that you're able to be seen. Um, because I think there's so much that there's that barrier. Um, and I think it took me a while trying to figure out until exactly my resume was like, kind of tweaked just right until it all sort of started getting. Because once I got it right, like I was, there was a minute there where I was had like interviews over top of, you know, interviews over top of interviews. Like, um, it, it got a little intense. So I think you, you know, make sure you're getting your resume correct. Um, make sure it's polished and um, you know, get, get it so it reads well in those AI systems that are going to auto reject you and. But then on top of that, like it has to look good for the human who will eventually see it. It can't just be, you know, polished through AI like it does. It does have to be, have that human element. It has to be real. Right? Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, There you go. We should launch a product that's a resume AI identifier. Right. It's the HR version of Tennessee Tourism's photo screener. Yeah.

Speaker B: And then I would just say, you know, make sure you, you've got, especially once you're, you have the interviews, you know, make sure you've, you've got your good stories, you've got your. There's, there's pretty, uh, all the questions that they ask on an interview are pretty much the same ones no matter what job you're going for. Right. You know, there, there may be some specific ones, um, for, for this thing. And I will tell you, I've worked in marketing now for a symphony. I've worked in a. Been, you know, an event coordinator. I've worked for a large Fortune 500 sort of company and destination marketing, like, marketing is marketing. Like, no matter where you go, marketing is marketing. It's the same tools, it's the same levers. If you're getting a marketing job, you should be able to talk to it no matter where you're going. Right. Just know some specific locations for the, for the industry that you're specifically trying to market. But other than that, just, just get it done. Um, so I think, I think just kind of know those kind of things, um, and have those good answers and have those good stories and um, get people to connect with those stories a little emotionally while you're doing those Interviews,

Speaker A: I think the stories is really important. Uh, now what I would be careful of is it's kind of funny that we're doing this today. My brother's actually looking for a job. He's my twin brother. And right before this recording, he asked me If I had 15 minutes to let him practice the presentation for round three that he has, uh, for a big, big corporation today. And so we went through it and the feedback that I gave him was you're doing the combination of anticipating all the questions and expounding broadly, and then you're telling the stories and you're taking 15 minutes per slide and you really need to be very concise and let the stories be the place where you expound because that's where people can connect with you. But they'll ask you follow up questions if your answers were too concise. But you, when what you can't recover from is going beyond what they wanted and now you've wasted their time for 10 minutes on every single answer to the question. So my suggestion for anybody looking for a job is in the interview process, give clear, concise, confident responses to the questions and then let the follow up questions fill in the blanks from anything you might have missed. Because if you miss something, the interviewer will flag it, recognize it, and ask you whatever it is that you missed.

Speaker B: Yeah, 100%, I agree with that. Yeah, get it short and sweet. Like, you know, have that, uh, have that, have that speech within three minutes. Right. You know, have all your answers. Three, three minutes. You know, that's about what you get.

Speaker A: Yeah. If every slide's a podcast episode, you probably miss somewhere along. Right.

Speaker B: Those podcasters, my God, they just go on and on.

Speaker A: I would hate to interview me at this point. That's why I have to own my own business. Uh, okay, so I think to wrap Colin, it would be really valuable for you just to consolidate what you've learned for both the job seeker and the job provider. What do we need to do? What's next steps for anybody listening to this episode to get it right?

Speaker B: Be fast. I think it's about failing fast. Right. It's, uh, learning something very quickly. Um, and how fast can you make it? Um, you know, there's, there's probationary periods for a reason.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: If you get it wrong, well, you know, there's, there's options. I realize I'm coming from, you know, perhaps a corporate mentality on some of that. Like, you know, if we made the wrong decision, we will, we will change that decision. Um, but I think I Think it's, you know, spend, spend less time on this because, um, you know, be correct, understand where you're going. Um, and, and that way you don't, you don't, you don't get dragged down in the mud ahead, uh, with all this, because this can really jam up an organization for a long time. Hiring and turnover is probably the most expensive thing, um, in any organization. Just the loss of knowledge from somebody leaving or just the effort of having to find somebody new. Um, so why not make sure you've got the railroad already built, um, correctly before you try to run the train down?

Speaker A: It's. I love that. I think the only thing I would add to that is that I would encourage every destination to think through the candidate experience with just as much rigor as you think through the visitor experience. And you'll definitely find some gaps that need to be fixed and probably some timelines that need to be shrunk.

Speaker B: Yeah. Cause sometimes they may end up being the executive director of some county next door to you. Um, and, uh, they may be in charge of bringing tourists to your region. You never know. You never know. You never know.

Speaker A: That's funny. Colin, this has been a lot of fun and I really appreciate you. You brought a topic today that I think is under discussed in our space, and I really appreciate you facilitating that with me today. It's been great.

Speaker B: Thanks, Adam. Appreciate you having me.

Speaker A: Absolutely. If people want to learn more about you, what's the best way?

Speaker B: Oh, you know, I'm on LinkedIn. Uh, that's probably the easiest way to get in touch with me. Um, there's also visitclearfieldcounty.org, which, if you were listening to this episode before August of 2026, please do not go to that website until it is done in August of 2026.

Speaker A: So I love it. Well, Colin, this is fantastic. Thanks again for your time. Thank you, and thanks everybody for listening. If you enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to leave us a rating or a review. It helps us continue to bring you amazing guests like Colin. Thanks everybody and have a great week. Ever since we did CMO Jam at ESTO last year, my inbox has been full of people saying, okay, when's the next one? When's the next one? When are you going to do do the CEO Jam? When are you going to do Digital Marketer Jam? So on and so forth. And it's something that we've put a lot of thought into. And after seeing the success of the CMO Jam product last year, we wanted to make it more frequent, we wanted to make it more scalable. And we've been working on a solution to that. Right now I'm looking for CMOs who want to participate in the CMO Jam that's upcoming, uh, probably in the next couple of months. And I'm also looking for people who would like to be a part of additional roundtables. So CMO Jam was where I had 10 CMOS around a table and we talked about the issues facing our industry and how the destination marketing industry can move forward from a marketing perspective. If you're a CEO and would like to be part of a CEO roundtable, hit me up. Adamathebrandrevolt.com Same. If you're a CMO or if you're part of another group that you'd like to do a roundtable sitting around with your, uh, different peers and have me moderate a discussion that captures really good value for the entire industry. Something that everybody in the industry needs to hear. I really would love to have all of you participate in some of these roundtables that we're putting together. And I'm even working on something that's going to be more fun, bigger and more opportunity for you all to connect with your peers in these types of roundtable settings. We're all going to learn from each other. It's the only way we survive this thing is we all need to work together, help each other move forward and build for the future, Build an industry that's sustainable for the future. And there's too much one to many discussion going on. I want many to many discussion going on and the way to do that is through these roundtables. If you want to participate, hit me up. Adamathebrandrevolt.com we'll set up a round table. We'll get you involved in some of the ones that we already have planned. And I think it's going to be a great way for us to continue to push this industry forward. It.