EP 151: The "Money Map": Driving Business Value and Scalability

Speaker A: Welcome to the Defenders of Business Value, the podcast that helps business owners unlock the value they've built and exit on their terms. Uh, I'm your host, Ed Mesiglen, and For the last 30 years, I've been helping business owners prepare, grow, protect, and ultimately sell their business. Whether you're a business owner, a buyer, or an advisor guiding others through the process, if you want to make your last deal your best one, you are in the right place. So let's get started.

Speaker B: Welcome M to another episode of Defenders of Business Value. On today's show, it's Chris Miller. Chris Miller is the founder of RevUp Manufacturing. It's a company dedicated to helping companies improve operations, increase their profitability, and build businesses that are less dependent on fill in the blank through his work in developing operational blueprints. Now, others in his field call it money maps, where it followed the money, and it's a visual process of a mapping system. So Chris helps business owners as well as their teams identify hidden inefficiencies, capture critical institutional or tribal knowledge, and create organizations that are more scalable, transferable, and valuable. So today we're going to discuss the operational factors that drive value, what buyers are looking for during due diligence, and how owners can prepare their companies for an eventual exit. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Chris Miller of RevUp Manufacturing. Chris, welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Thanks for having me. It's an honor to be here. I appreciate it.

Speaker B: I don't know about honor, but it's sure pretty awesome that you are so Rev Up Manufacturing. Every podcast guest that I have on here, I'm like, God, I hate reading the bios and things like that because I just don't feel like, ever do it justice. So you mind go Giving just your 32nd origin story and how Rev Up Manufacturing came to be?

Speaker C: Yeah, I guess what really inspired me was, uh, really my dad came from. He was at a lot of big companies, and I developed over time a passion for manufacturing. And I would see my dad kind of go in and out of these big buyouts and different things, and they didn't really go very well. But it seemed like as I went through school, I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur and always just fell in talking with a lot of different business owners and just helping them build processes all around. I have an engineering background, and so I just started helping people dive into the details and then really start figuring out how do we build structure around, you know, making these things, this business bigger and better.

Speaker B: Well, I've got to ask Because I had the same challenge. Like I was, I was 22 when I got into this business, right. And so everybody's like, let me get this straight. You want me to entrust my business with a 22 year old? It didn't, it didn't go so well, just in case you're wondering. So I'm, I'm curious to know how you've been accepted into the manufacturing community. Right? Because I mean, you're a young guy. Now granted it's different selling a company versus being an engineer and I'm here to support and help build your company. But did you have any age related problems? Did you, you know, how did you get accepted? Now mind you, I've done enough due diligence to know you got a ton of street credit. Right. So I know that.

Speaker C: I appreciate that.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, so how did you do it?

Speaker C: Well, I mean, there was a ton of twists and turns. You know, I, it didn't start off this way either. I was actually working full time at Cook Medical. But I, um, when I first started off and I just started working with small and medium sized manufacturers just on the side, I was like, I really wanted to learn. I was just very open about how I need to learn that. And so I would just kind of raise my hand and I edit a lot of different things that most people now would say, like, that's crazy, uh, you know, almost for little to no money. But it was, it was a lot of experience. And so, yeah, so there was just a lot of stuff that, you know, it just opened doors because then that's how some of the relationships started going with that where it's like, hey, this manufacturer, you did this over here. This manufacturer or this logistics company needs you to do this over here. One thing, will I do another. And I've just been having fun ever since.

Speaker B: Crack on. So business owners are relying on tribal knowledge. Right. And so I guess it inherently, you know, the challenges we have in selling companies is just that the tribal knowledge is concentrated in a person or a few people. So the risk is amplified when you have a buyer that's coming alongside trying to figure out how in the hell am I going to do this if everything that creates the value is stuck in a couple people, the people that you've served. Right. Uh, this tribal knowledge, I want to talk about how dangerous it is, how to identify it, I guess is probably the best way to ask it.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, and I, I've seen it there. There's two sides of the coin is number one, like again in manufacturing and business owners, a lot of times they're just, sometimes they're just not aware of it. And so when we map some of these processes, we do these operations, blueprints and a lot of that becomes exposed because a lot of owners, they, they are the business. And so they like we, we did one a couple weeks ago and you know, the owner didn't even know that there was four key processes that were related to building that one person did. And so it was like light bulbs come off for me, even like us doing the workshop, but also um, for the owner. But basically, you know, that's a big risk because what happens if that person gets hit by a bus? You know, and God forbid, but like what happens if that person becomes disgruntled? Um, and then the other piece of it is, I think I shared with you before I tried to buy a manufacturer, uh, several years ago and you know, ran into that same issue and it seemed like, you know, there was discounts because the owner was doing three roles. You can't pay full price basically because as a, uh, as an owner or investor you can't really pay full price for that, more or less.

Speaker B: But, but at the same time if it's working for that owner. Right. And again, I recognize that there is a risk associated with it. I totally get that. I'm just kind of curious to know, is there different tribal knowledge that's more value penalty related? Like, you know what, it's just like if you got this, you should anticipate, you know, there's going to be a massive discount.

Speaker C: Yeah, I've seen some where it's tied up in contracts. Like, I mean I've seen ones where, you know, the business is tied to the actual person. I've seen where, you know, I'll talk to, I'll talk to a founder and owner and you can tell they are the secret sauce, the DNA of that company. And that's a big risk because, and again, none of it's documented. So again, when a buyer or investor wants to come in, they're looking at this person and it's like they're trying to figure out, okay, what's the transition plan? And they're looking at it from an opportunity standpoint. So they're trying to see, okay, how do we identify this secret sauce, this DNA of the company and how do we 10 exit or 5 exit or whatever. And that can be really difficult with some of these owners because a lot of times they've been so far in the weeds and for so many years that sometimes they Just haven't stopped to make that stuff visible, documented, and expand and build a team around that as well.

Speaker B: And I think the business owner's counterpoint is like, yeah, you know what? But that, that will eat into my earnings, right, if I start adding bodies. And I'm, I'm kind of curious because when, when I was thinking about the questions and the things I was going to ask you is like, all right, so now you're, you know, you're at the intersection of AI, right? You, you, now you. So you're identifying all these processes. I'm just curious to know, are you now sitting here saying, all right, here's the process, but there's an agent that can be built out to handle that process.

Speaker C: Ye, there's three ways to look at some of these processes. There's number one, looking at the big picture, like that's the thing is putting these things up on the walls and being able to say, here's the big picture. There's one, it's like how do we reduce expenses? How do we find the low hanging fruit? And then the other piece is the opportunities. What kind of value adds or investments can we put into this? Is this as simple as just switching from Excel spreadsheets to like, you know, Asana or some project management tool that will, you know, sometimes, sometimes it is that easy fix. But then there's also the other piece where it directly relates to the bottom line and very practical is, you know, when somebody is doing those three jobs or those two jobs, there's a salary that's tied to that. And so that also if you do the math on the transaction where you're looking at the seller discretionary earnings or the ebitda, uh, think about those two or three roles and that is actually what you multiply that into how much of a discount it is basically interesting.

Speaker B: Conversely, the way I've described it is it's kind of like Capex for processes, right? So you've got Capex for equipment that you got to keep adding. Well, as you grow, there's Capex for people, right? Where, where you just. This is the new process. So have you identified like here's the process and here's the right time to add a body.

Speaker C: A lot of that stuff really comes out in these workshops. Like it, it makes it so easy to figure that out because you know, the people talk about it. The people. It's really awesome getting people in the room to really discuss those pieces because it becomes very evident, okay, uh, this can be solved by software and some people are Kind of standing around thinking, I don't know how to solve that, but we're going to take that as a takeaway. But then there's others that collectively, through whether it's the owners, the investors, or again, a lot of times the people are identifying these things, they're telling me this information, and then basically we're saying, okay, it's clear that there's real consensus here. And then the icing on the cake is you can actually quantify and say, and see exactly how much this issue is costing you. This pain point costs you $100,000 a year. Do you want to build a solution for that or are you going to accept that risk and just say, you know what, it's not worth hiring somebody? I've seen people do that as well.

Speaker B: How do you quantify that? That's interesting.

Speaker C: It's. Honestly, you're looking at the pain points and you're seeing again, it's impacting multiple departments, it's impacting multiple people most of the time. And so when you can actually boil it down, you can say, okay, how many times a day or how many times a week does that happen? Okay, how much, how long does it take to fix that? And then you can actually figure out the full time equivalent, like how many hours that are there. And then you say, okay, well, we're wasting this many labor hours, or we need to have another person that does this role to do this. You know, if, uh, it, if it's very manually intensive.

Speaker B: Yeah, interesting. All right, so I had the benefit of talking to you before, so I know a little bit, I know a little bit about you, but you keep referencing the workshop for those that, that aren't familiar with how you operate what is the workshop, and kind of give me the lay of the land on how it works, the buy in. What are you doing here and how's it going to affect me? Go ahead.

Speaker C: It is very unique, but basically we call these operations blueprints. Or, uh, I had an investor friend that said, chris, we call these money maps. And so, uh, yeah, so. But basically what we're doing is we're basically, we're taking the owner out of some of that. Most of that, they're giving us the goals. But we're, we're doing more than just in a transaction. A lot of times you just get a handshake, you get a tour of the building, more or less of operations and maybe some, you know, discussion. But we're actually doing a thorough job of looking through end to end, and we can do it In a week. And so the result of that is basically you walk into, uh, an executive conference room and you have all of the core processes that are up on the walls and you can all talk about them, discuss them, everybody can point and everything. You're exposing innovation opportunities, you're exposing pain points, all those issues. And really you can see everything, the big picture of the business, anybody who's part of that, you're inviting them into the conversation of what's the big picture, what's the vision of this? Because that's, that's really what we're trying

Speaker B: to do here from a culture standpoint. You know, there's some people that are like, yeah, I just want my paycheck, leave me alone. And then conversely, there are people that, you've got organizations that have unbelievable cultures. Right. So how does that work? That you get buy in? Or are you seeing that people are. Once you get started and it's like, oh, this guy's actually trying to help me.

Speaker C: Uh, that's a great question and I love that question because I have seen the culture improve so much. Because like I said, you are inviting others in, you're letting them really air out, more or less, what is holding them back, what are their pain points? You're really trying to figure out and help them. A lot of times in the beginning they don't know exactly what's going on. Again, that's part of the conversations and part of that. You're building that relationship, that rapport in some of these sessions. And then they see the output, um, and then they see that, wow, this is the time that I'm allowed that I can go do this. And so I've seen engagement, I've seen people get excited about their jobs because they're like, I mean, people, by the end of these things, like the last one we just did, somebody was like, it would be cool if. And then the employees and people were really, you know, engaging in saying, yes, it would be awesome if we did this. And then they were also by the end of it saying, I'm going to take that on, I'm going to go do that. The owners actually said that was the first time they've ever seen that happen.

Speaker B: Basically, as I've looked at businesses over the years, I've always thought it was earnings, right? It was always leads, always earnings. But the longer I'm in this, the more it's, it's man the crew that's generating those earnings really makes it. And you know, people can say, oh, it's the people there's a difference between it's the people and then there's the people in the culture.

Speaker C: 100%. And that's also what, what I love about doing these things is because, uh, you know, the earnings don't come from the financial statements or, you know, the, the lawyers. It is the operations. It's the people that are there. And I've, I walked into so many, so many operations, so many manufacturers or logistics companies, and you can tell they have just rock star people. And you wonder, and honestly, I admire some of these businesses that have built so much and they have so little documented, but again, it speaks volumes about the people that are there.

Speaker B: Yeah, but when nothing's documented, it's just a fumble on the, on the goal line. You may score, but you know it's going to be a hard score. Right.

Speaker C: A lot of that stuff comes out as, like, they're key people, they're key personnel. And so again, a big piece of it is, okay, what happens again if this, if this guy gets disgruntled with this big transition? It's just operational risk. And also it's a standpoint of you want to build those people up. You don't want everybody to be in the same role for years and years and years. You want to continue to elevate the really good people and, and promote them so they can have even better impact. Because if they're really talented, the first step to do that is for them to document what they were doing, because you want to document their secret sauce. Like, how did you get into so many accounts here? How did you crank these, you know, these products out? You know, you want them to tell you that stuff or at least help with that so they can grow.

Speaker B: Yeah, but, but the counterpoint, uh, and again, I think it comes back to creating an environment where it's safe to do that. Right. That this is how I'm able to excel within this, and I'm okay sharing that and because I'm not worried that you're getting ready to take my information and give it to somebody that doesn't deserve it.

Speaker C: I've had that question multiple times. And one of the stories I love to share, uh, Pete the painter, uh, he was like, he was in a manufacturing facility, very hard worker, and he was asking those questions. And again, the management and ownership wanted to elevate him, but he was thinking, okay, if we document the processes here, then, like, isn't that my job? Like, you're going to take my job? And I said, no, Pete, you're a great welder. We're actually going to. We just got a robot welder. You're going to move over there, and you're going to be the robot champion. And he was. That was one of those things that really excited him because for so long he's been asking about, how can I become a welder? He's demonstrated such hard work that. So that's what we ended up doing. We got to work on that. And he transitioned rather quickly over there.

Speaker B: That's a great point, because I do believe anytime you start, even here in my shop, right. We talk about processes, and I know it threatens support staff. Right? I know it because it's like, why does he want to know that? Why does. Why are we getting this granular on how our.

Speaker A: This place works?

Speaker B: What is Ed up to? And, and I get that. And, and. And again, that's a, uh, that's a slam on me because I haven't facilitated a culture that provides that safety. And, and that's something that, that I'm working on.

Speaker C: I think it's natural to. To be thinking when somebody is kind of rooting around and, like, what you're. What you've been doing. You know, I think it's kind of natural to be like, wait a second. But that's also where these conversations and the relationship with that comes in. Because I'm not just a robot asking you, like, I'm not trying to know. This is. We're trying to elevate this. Um, we're trying to make sure people can excel at their jobs. And a lot of times move into things that they're even more passionate about. Like, sometimes it's like, do you really want to be Pete the painter? The entire, like, you know, you. A lot of times, like, I'm like, you complain about this all the time, like, help me, help me help you.

Speaker B: But I think it comes down to that. You feel like you're being judged, right? This is. How do you do it? I do it like this. And, you know, are you going to come back and say, yeah, that's probably not the best way to be doing it, especially in, like, legacy organizations like ours, right? We're 45 years into it. We've been. This is the way we do it. Right?

Speaker C: And.

Speaker B: And, you know, our younger guys are like, you know, Claude can do this or pick whatever, but my, My older guys are like, they're still printing paper, right? They're not. You know, they're printing it out, and I want to. I want to read it. I want to hold it in my hand all Right.

Speaker C: Oh, well. And some of that is just also showing up to keep, again, being there in person with that and just being able to reinforce those things. Um, you know, some of those things, it's, you just gotta keep pulling them out of, you know, what they're doing there, but also reassure them. We're not trying to take your job, we're trying to improve things. That is the core of this. Like, tell me your pain points, tell me your issues. I'm literally in these sessions talking to people, tell me what sucks.

Speaker B: So, which then takes me to the legacy guys, right? So when you're doing the workshop and you're putting all the blueprint up, I mean, who resonates and who doesn't? I suspect that the, the older guys are, are the ones that push back or. No.

Speaker C: Uh, you know, I, I feel like every, every role has some kind of pushback, to be honest with you. Executives come in there and they're like, this is where everything is going to prove me right about how software is terrible. But that's not the result. You know, we see the cost of it and we say that's a fraction of it. You know, I'd say the people who are on the floor doing, doing the job, this is, they, they are very excited, the operations are very excited because they're like, I want to show the executives, I want to show these people exactly what I do and what I deal with on a day to day basis. I think that's, uh, really exciting to me because, like, I'll have, you know, an hour conversation with somebody about their job, their process, um, and then I'll come back and I'm like, all right, this is what I heard. This is your process. This is about how much, what I calculate, how much it probably costs you during the day. Does this all sound about right? And like, you can see that they're like light bulb. And they're like, yes, I want to show that to the executives. Like, I want to show that to owners. And, and so we're also giving them the opportunity to do that in many cases too.

Speaker B: You know, when you and I first met, I mean, we were talking due diligence. And I'm curious to know how much better is this when you go, you know, you're, you're, you're into a sale and you can roll this thing out and say, this is exactly how we work. Have you got, you got any data or any experience on that?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Ah. So again, it kind of goes back to when I was looking at buying a company. I was looking at, okay, how do I see the operations, how do I understand some of this stuff? I mean I was already doing this stuff. I knew that this had to be done, but I still wasn't understanding, okay, well, what is the secret sauce? You're telling me these 10 different revenue streams of it. But like what is core? And so some of this, it was just, hey, I get a few hours on the floor with the owner and that's it. Um, and so that's when I kind of started again. Looking back, you know, within this due diligence and I thought there's got to be a better way because these, these workshops, these processes, you know, that's really what happened with the first couple transactions that I was with. I didn't even realize that's what happened, um, until many years later. But really I was a process consultant. Going in there and just documenting these things. It takes a week and you get a full big picture. You can see what are the opportunities to innovate. You know, you can also see what do we need to reduce. But like the non value ads, like I'm talking about, like we've been data entering this stuff, you know, you see that all these people have created their own Google sheet sometimes. At, uh, one of the engagements we saw that 18 different departments through the life of the product, they had 18 different Google Sheets outside of their main system.

Speaker B: We may know the same company. I've seen a few of those.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Golly. One of the questions that I was trying to figure out how to ask it was, you said it takes a week, right? Every business owner wants to know. I don't want to say what's the cost because I'm certain it's based on scope, right? The scope, how big it is and so on and so forth. How much of a financial undertaking is this?

Speaker C: It definitely isn't like a large, um, it really does depend on the size of it. It also depends on the core processes that you're mapping out too. If you tell me there's 30 processes, we're going to be there for probably over a week. But we really want to focus down on that. Um, and, and usually again the smaller ones, if you're looking at it, again, it depends on the size and the core, but you can go from seven up to. Again, it depends on how long you want to go. Um, because some of this stuff, you realize, okay, we actually need, this is a big risk. We actually need to dig deeper in. We want to build into some of these other things too. It depends on the plan that we come up with too. If you want something that is extremely specialized and um, you know, that depends on like extreme timing and things like that, that also is a big factor as well. But you know, for small businesses those are easy. Some of those, I can get those done in a couple of days too.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: So that's my question. After you do your work, I mean, how many people go, huh, that's pretty interesting. Versus oh, that's pretty interesting. Let's fix all this.

Speaker C: Yeah, and that's another great question. Um, honestly, that's what excited me about this a lot. Because I've been doing these for eight years. I started noticing that I was working with multiple departments even after it, I would work with the IT department. I don't know code, I don't know that stuff. I just say, hey, this is broken, we need to fix this. I would start working with the quality department, the quality engineers, and they would say, oh, we can do a, ah, gap analysis over this. Like, oh, we're going to rewrite our SOPs and our work instructions from this. Like, this is insane. You know, I would get these compliments. The training department, the, the learning and development, they would start looking at these and say, wow, we don't have to really go chase anything. We have screenshots in this. Like we have what we're going to talk about. Like this is the core here. Um, and then, and then the executives, like the big picture, like they're going to, wow, there's a lot of stuff that we can do with this. And now we're going to make, you know, we're going to update this and we're not going to touch that. Like that is, that's a great thing. So by the end of it, there's you know, three to five different departments and then it's also, it acts as more or less change control. Like you can look at it, you know, six months or a year from now. I get, you know, I get emails saying, hey, we found this broken. Um, can you send me that? Like we're just trying to see what, what broke or what changed. And so it's basically process drift. You can see what has changed over the years or over the six months because, and use it in some of that root cause analysis as well.

Speaker B: Interesting. Okay, so along those same lines, right, you've identified the areas that need fixing and now it's, it's incumbent upon the business owner to do something with it. What's the lowest hanging fruit? Yeah, one of my questions was, all right, what can you what can you really do right outta the gate to fix?

Speaker C: A lot of times there's things that, again, going back to that conversation, it would be cool if these are people coming up with it, they're making these lists and they're realizing again, like we're looking at this list and saying this is high impact, low effort, they're putting that on there. And so a lot of times it could be like, that is just basically high impact. But we just update these work instructions or we update how we do this, like changing sales processes, um, saying things differently to customers.

Speaker B: Interesting. So do you do deploy other consultants, like, you know, uh, for sales? Like, uh, you know, there's outfits here in town that do sales consulting. There's, you know, culture, there's accounting, fractional cfo.

Speaker C: I wouldn't say that we dive in and say, here's how you sell and here's how you do this stuff. But I would say we surface enough of the pain points that are granular and detailed that we say, okay, this, this is systemic. Or, um, or this is actually like just symptomatic. This is just a quick fix, like, not a big deal. But like in those areas where again, like this last time we actually worked with had an IT person that was a fly on the wall in the room, it was something I tried, tested out because there's always it touches like this, this whole process is how do you get the operational, um, the physical work and connect it to the it. And so he was able to even at the end be able to say, oh yeah, that, that's an easy thing to do. Again, I'm not a developer, but having some of those resources on hand. And again, some of this, I just, I recognize like some of this stuff with the culture, that's when I definitely have other, other people that I'm like, man, I don't know the details of these pieces of how to like build out a program, but I know this person, um, has really done a phenomenal job at doing that kind of interested.

Speaker B: A couple more questions. Uh, in, in researching this thing. I was, it was funny, like on Reddit, right? Everybody, including in my profession, right? It's, it's do it yourself kind of thing. Right? And so, you know, I was seeing, well, you, you document your stuff through loom. You, you know, you can take your voice recorder, walk around and talk, and this is how you establish your processes. And I'm like, I hear that. I mean, is that a good, good first step? Or it's like, yeah, that's nice that you're recording it, but you're never going to do anything with it.

Speaker C: I think it's a little bit of both there because like, um, it's a good first step, like if you haven't documented anything. Um, but at the same time, I've, I've seen a lot of people that do loom in these and just, you know, regular work instructions and they don't get used. The benefit of having a third party too is I don't have a dog in the fight. So people actually naturally open up to me, you know, because I'm just here saying, hey, I'm here. I want to, I want to hear your pain points. I don't know any of the drama, I don't know any of the different stuff in the background. I'm trying to understand the more or less the black and white stuff too. Um, you know, so people open up to me a lot more about that kind of thing. Um, and then again, like the other thing is with Loom and a lot of these other different platforms, that is so granular, we really do specialize in bringing it up to 80,000 foot view and saying, okay, this is how the business runs at a high level, at an executive level to make it all put pieces together. And maybe there is a Loom video or multiple videos that are tied to that where it's almost like a click under or things like that. It's like for more detail, look at this SOP or this work instruction, things like that. It definitely is not a full substitute of that, but it gets you really, really close, um, so that you can dive into the details where needed.

Speaker B: That clearly will help you do your work right?

Speaker C: Yeah. A lot of times I'm recommending like that sales process. You know, I would hear these things and they're like, people would say, I don't have the language or the knowledge because I'm new. You know, I've been here for a month and I don't know what I'm supposed to say to these customers. And it's like, okay, well that's a systemic issue. We don't have a training program around that piece of it. And so it's kind of flagging and saying we need to have standard operating procedure or a work instruction to at least help people with that.

Speaker B: Now, you know, I know you're rev up manufacturing. Uh, is it just manufacturing? Are you, are you broadening out to other industries?

Speaker C: I've had that question a lot lately. I mean, I have a passion for manufacturing and industrial and logistics, but, um, more and More I've been having people ask me about other industries. So, I mean, I would definitely look at some of those. Yeah, we've definitely done a couple other industries as well. But it start off as manufacturing, so I wouldn't say no, but I'd definitely be open to a conversation and how that works. Everything.

Speaker B: All right, well, the last question I have for you is, and I've asked this for, I guess I think you're like episode 153, so 152 people before you. I've asked. So if you could make one change or make one suggestion to a business owner that would either make its business more valuable or salable, what would it be?

Speaker C: Personally, I might be a little biased here. I see a lot of key dependencies on, on the owner or individuals within there. And again, having that experience, even going through that process, it's multiples of those things. And so I think that was another big red flag. I hear that all the time of, well, why is this so discounted? It should be worth X amount. Like, that's. The other thing is, even if you have a lot of key accounts or you have one key account documenting that, you know, that's another big piece of it. So the buyers can see that at a high level, we've had that. Where, where people are like, we don't understand what you're doing with this one key account. But once you actually documented at a high level, then they're. Then they go, oh, okay, that fits into our other portfolio over here and we can use that. And, and so they. They end up getting more business from that as well. Um, so anyway, yeah, okay, well, so

Speaker B: how do people find you?

Speaker A: Where are you?

Speaker C: Revupmfg.com um, I'm also on LinkedIn. Uh, Chris Miller. It's always been word of mouth, but. Revupmfg.com any other special places we need to find you? Those are the main ones. Uh, but I'm happy to do a phone call or text too. I'm one of those, so I'm happy to, you know, do that.

Speaker B: So, Chris, thank you so much for taking the time with me, man. I so enjoyed our time together.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the defenders of business value. If today's episode helped you think differently about building or selling a business, follow the show so you don't miss what's next. And if you want to become a

Speaker B: more informed, confident owner, the one who

Speaker A: knows how to grow, protect, and eventually exit at maximum value, subscribe to my newsletter. The link is in the show notes and if you're ready to talk about your next deal, connect with me on LinkedIn. So, until next time, we'll see you soon.