EP 150: Bridging the Gap Between Military Service and Business Ownership

Speaker A: Welcome to the Defenders of Business Value, the podcast that helps business owners unlock the value they've built and exit on their terms. I'm your host, Ed Meyseglen, and For the last 30 years, I've been helping business owners prepare, grow, protect, and ultimately sell their businesses. Whether you're a business owner, a buyer, or an advisor guiding others through the process, if you want to make your last deal your best one, you are in the right place. So let's get started. Welcome to another episode of Defenders of Business Value. Today our guest is Courtney Zog. Courtney has spent much of her career helping veterans become successful entrepreneurs and helping communities create environments where those businesses can thrive. As a founder, investor advocate, and economic development professional, she has worked at the intersection of entrepreneurship, capital and growth. So today we're going to explore the state of veteran entrepreneurship, what buyers are looking for in today's market, and some of the unique opportunities and challenges that veteran owned businesses face when it comes to building value and eventually selling a company. We absolutely need to express our gratitude for the men and women who have served our country and have helped protect the freedoms we enjoy every day. And I'd also like to recognize the spouses and the families who have made those sacrifices alongside them, often carrying the burdens that we don't see. So my hope is that our conversation like this not only shines a light on the contributions of the veterans and their family, but also it encourages us to find ways to make it easier for those that have served to pursue their dreams of business ownership and create lasting values for themselves, for their families and their communities. With that, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Courtney Zog of Venture Pets. Courtney, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Hi, Ed. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: It's my pleasure. I was talking a little bit about you before you came on your background and your cv and uh, I was just kind of candidly, I hate doing that because I just never feel like I do it justice. So do you mind. Yeah. Give the a little bit of your origin story and. And then we can let it rip from there.

Speaker B: Sure. Yes. And actually it'll relate to what we were talking about before we came on. I'm an economic developer by training, but I come from a lineage of, uh, food entrepreneurs. So in the Creek community, my great grandfather came over, had a food cart in downtown Indianapolis in the 1900s that then merged. My grandparents had a catering business and food wholesale business. And then my parents started three different restaurants which ultimately failed. And so growing up, it was like entrepreneurship was not a thing because we had gone from, you know, having a really great, stable life to growing up really poor and having a lot of challenges then. So our entrance into entrepreneurship was mostly accidental. My husband's a Marine Corps veteran, and like most enlisted, he got out, used the GI Bill, was going to go work in federal law enforcement. And my background being in the economic development, international economic development, meant my work mainly was targeted in conflict zones. And the conversation he and I had, candidly, when we were still dating, I came to dinner one night and I was like, hey, so, um, I applied for this job with NATO in Afghanistan. What do you think about that? And he pauses. You know, my husband's very stoic, but also very funny. And he pauses and he goes, well, I think that I will give you a flap jacket and a pistol and tell you good luck because I'm not going back to work. And that was the start of figuring out what are we going to do together, uh, and make an impact and work. So eventually we started our first business, our family business in construction. He's a general contractor called Zinc Contractors. And when that happened, other, mainly Marines, reach out and said, hey, how'd you get started? How do you get customers? Who's your attorney? And we just started doing that, which then evolved into what Venture Vets is today.

Speaker A: I was so stoked when I first met you, and then I was even more stoked after doing a little bit more research on you because candidly, I think it's an underserved market. I think it's like people that are out defending our freedoms and all the things that come along with it and how we are not making it easy to get into this right into entrepreneurship. It was like, uh, I'm, I'm all in. Let's figure this out and let's see how we might be able to get in trouble together. For people that are listening, I mean, talk about the veteran entrepreneur landscape, right? I know people are actively seeking operators, right? But we'll talk about that here in a minute. Yes, like just in general, the US landscape of veteran entrepreneurs, yeah, they're pretty

Speaker B: significant when it comes to the percentage of, uh, businesses that they own. But for all of the different veteran eras, there's about 17 million currently. There's somewhere between like 1 and a half and 2 million veteran owned businesses. They employ a ton of people. Even on the flip side, I know we're talking specifically about veterans, but military spouses that are frankly can be even grittier because of their experience having to contingency plan all the time. There's almost A million of them as entrepreneurs. So there's a lot of us out there. And granted the ecosystem has evolved, but there's more and more programs coming online that's helping build specific infrastructure to help either whether they want to start a new business or whether they want to acquire a business. Which is fantastic because when we started 10 years ago, very little of those resources existed.

Speaker A: I'm curious to know on the spouse side, right. You know, you're seeing more and more influencers, I shouldn't say influencer, like uh, Jocko Willink and Sean Ryan and you know, building big businesses, which to me I'm really stoked because you know, it's drawing awareness to just how awesome just by training. Right. The SOPs, the how you operate that it's drawing attention. But the spouses caught me off guard. Right. I didn't even think to look about this. And you may know that these are spouses that do VA work.

Speaker B: Yes, truly it's because of the challenge that they have. And I was never an active duty spouse. I met my husband after he got out. And so just having friends and being part of the ecosystem, seeing all the things that they are faced with when having to deal with when their, their spouse is deployed, it's significant. The virtual assistant and the remote work is really important because typically it's difficult for them to be hired for a full time position when you know, their employer knows they're going to leave maybe in 18 months. They're actually much more highly educated than the general public in the US but have about uh, a 26% year over year unemployment rate, which is crazy considering these are folks much like their spouse where they have to have systems in order for their lives to work. There's a lot of contingency planning that has to happen. The things that they have to handle on their own and figure stuff out is so much greater than the general public.

Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah. And not in a million years would I have thought especially 26%. That's a big number.

Speaker B: It's a huge number. It's a huge number.

Speaker A: Why are veterans running to entrepreneurship now?

Speaker B: I think it's a lot of things. The evolution of the conversations about how to kind of control your own destiny I think have been really, really great. But I think things that for folks that have served, they're used to a, uh, playbook. Right. I've been doing what I've been told to do. Now I want to go figure out and build something new. I think the other thing too about entrepreneurship through acquisition is that they understand how to run things from a playbook once the system's set up, they're the ones that, like, they execute both on the veteran side and the military spouse side. So entrepreneurship through acquisition is a fantastic option for them, for us, uh, because of those skills. And I think, you know, still to this day, there's not a lot of conversations coming from the Department of War educating those transitioning and the families about these options. These options are existing and. And it's the outside folks, the ones who have transitioned, saying, hey, have you thought about this? Check this out, talk to this person, go through this program. But again, our agencies are not facilitating those conversations as well as they could be.

Speaker A: I wonder why. I mean, why would you not? Let's just talk about baby boomers, right? Just because there's probably a large contingent of who are veterans. Right.

Speaker B: Who served. Right, Right.

Speaker A: And those are resilient. Those are people that somehow make it work. So to me, it would seem likely that getting behind other veterans right. In this day and age would be good loans, good investment. Right?

Speaker B: I mean, uh, yes, I of course, advise that. I would agree. So there's an organization through Syracuse University called the Institute for Veteran and Military Families. And they do a couple of different things. They have a very strong entrepreneurship, virtual entrepreneurship program. They also provide kind of career training and corporate support, but they also have a very strong data and research arm. And so they're the ones doing a lot of research, understanding the impact of transition for veterans and their families. And it's kind of dated data, but capital is still for any entrepreneur. Right. It's high up there on the list. And what's interesting is that for, you know, the World War II generation, they could use the GI Bill to seed their company. And now the GI Bill can only be used for higher education. Yes. You have the VA loan for mortgages and other things, but the flexibility of the GI Bill was a lot broader. When they got out and came home, a lot of them did start businesses because of those options that don't exist today.

Speaker A: I mean, we just talked about capital. Outside of that, what is the biggest challenge for veterans not getting into business?

Speaker B: I think there's two things, the two points that we hope to solve for venture vets. One is community. So when you get out, a lot of them move back home, uh, to be close to family and help raise kids. Right. And so that means folks have been gone for a long time, are kind of reintegrating back into a community and don't have the support system like they had being close to A base. So that's one, I think. The other is you've had stable income, maybe not paid as well as what you, my opinion, maybe as well as you should be in the military, but it's stable. And so when they're getting out, they're like, it's my time to make good money and be in the private sector and I need a job to support my family. And so the tunnel vision of how do I get to that point as fast and as secure as possible means they're looking for jobs instead of opportunities in entrepreneurship. Understandable. But I think, you know, there's other options and we hope to provide the infrastructure to facilitate the other options for them.

Speaker A: I'm curious to know like how you mitigate that risk. Is it consulting? Is it? What is it that you do that helps lower the entrepreneurial, you know, the leap of faith risk conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's two, it's two things. It's community number one. Right. They have a leaning point. They're entering into a pool of people that have been through that process that they can lean on and ask questions. And the other thing is education. What we've done really well for the last 10 years is provide education and training and connections to the right kind of best fit resources for whatever their next step is on the community.

Speaker A: So you've got a cohort or you've got online, uh, or in person or both.

Speaker B: Both. It's both, yep.

Speaker A: And then the education side, define what education means. I mean it's just like how to own and operate a business or how to get into business capital.

Speaker B: Well, it's evolved. So initially it was if you had an idea, we'd help you frame it and put your business model together in a way that will make you successful. Meaning do you really understand your customers? And if you do, you know, then you can kind of put pen to paper and go out and start executing. Then that, that work has evolved because the ecosystem's evolved. So as I mentioned, Syracuse University, they do a lot of that programming of like how to set up your llc, you know, how do you do customer discovery, what does marketing look like, market research, things of that sort. And so for us, we now focus on two pathways. One is sector specific programming. So the next accelerator, uh, for us is construction tech, where people have to have their product and service, they have to understand the market. We can help accelerate that product or service and connect them to corporate customers. And then on the flip side, we also provide, I uh, would say digital skills training. So we've done several cohorts teaching folks about AI for business optimization, cyber security for their business, data analytics, digital marketing, things of that sort. And so it's, you know, for folks that are kind of beyond. They're still early stage, but it's beyond the idea, um, and help them accelerate it.

Speaker A: This is a loaded question.

Speaker B: Oh, boy.

Speaker A: So, no, no, that's. That's all right. So when you, when you look at a veteran versus non veteran. Right. Business star, I'm certain you've seen them both. What do you think is the key difference?

Speaker B: I think that. And I know we're. I'm, um, biased, right. But I think this level of work ethic, and candidly, I think sometimes the work ethic, if I say from personal experience in our own home, has been like, we'll work harder. Maybe not always smarter at first, but we will work harder. We'll outwork anyone in the room. So the work ethic piece, I think is important. I remember one founder who, who told me one time, like, oh, you know, I want to make sure this business is set up so, like, I'm not working more than 40 hours a week. This is a new business, mind you. He's not purchasing a business. And m. In my mind, I'm like, you're going to have a hard, rude awakening of like, what it means to build and what it means to make it successful. I think it's work ethic. I think it's contingency planning. The amount of things that they have to have for, in terms of backup plans and checking is. Is way different than the general population. And the third is just leadership. You know, at any point in the military service, and frankly, even as a military spouse, you have to pick things up and go. You're constantly having to lead others and figure out when the next step is, then be able to, um, support the people behind you and lead and have them lead the people behind them. And I think those are the three key things, you know, work ethic, contingency planning, and leadership.

Speaker A: I would add deliberate. Every veteran that we've worked with, there's not a whole lot of posturing. The commonality that I've always said and I'm happy to work with, uh, every one of them is just the same thing. Is that as soon as you have that conversation, right. I may have gotten lied to. I may have. I mean, they may have been full of it for. I know. But it doesn't feel that way. It feels like this is.

Speaker B: Yeah, they're going to get stuff done.

Speaker A: This is where I'm at This is what I need. Figure it out. Right. Kind of thing.

Speaker B: Right. So, um, yeah, yes, that's very true. Especially the Marines. They're very direct.

Speaker A: Well, but I mean, I appreciate that it's easier to help somebody if you truly know what's going on. Right. Or whether I agree or disagree. At least you know exactly where they stand.

Speaker B: Clarity. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Oh, that's a good one too. Clarity. Yeah. So veteran statuses, I mean, we started to talk a little bit about that. Can you talk about that status, what it means, and then we can pull that thread?

Speaker B: Yes. So the veteran owned business, and you know, there's different types, Right. The service disabled, veteran owned, small business, truly, that's the focus for federal, state and local contracts. And I'll talk mostly about the federal. For this perspective. The department of Our budget is like $1.5 trillion for fiscal year 27. It makes sense to have the designation. I think that the value, of course, is what sector you're in and your end goal. For us, as we've gone back and forth between commercial construction and residential construction, we're not going after federal contracts when we're doing residential work. Of course. Right. And so for us, it's not as important, but certainly for anyone construction, uh, wanting to do commercial work, it's a huge opportunity. There's a lot of work coming online. But the challenges would be it's still about relationships. And so if the company, the veteran that owns a company has a relationship and has that contract with a prime with the federal government, what happens when it's time to exit and that relationship shifts? We've received a handful of calls from folks that are looking to exit their business, their veteran owned business, and looking for other veterans to take over. For that reason, they want the continuity of that contract and that designation to continue. And it's challenging, that's challenging to find, you know, the right person to do that.

Speaker A: It also limits your buyer pool. What, what is the procedure for the veterans that are just, you know, this is their first venture, no pun intended, into this? I mean, what does it take to get a contract?

Speaker B: Well, uh, yeah, it takes time. And even when you get a contract, and again, it's dependent on the sector, it takes relationship building, which takes time and payment for when you get paid for that work takes time. And so the other challenge, this is generally when you have government contracts is that you have to make sure that you have a commercial line set up. In addition, because, you know, the army may not pay for 18 months. And so what are you going to Do? How are you going to make payroll?

Speaker A: Are there friendly banks out there that come along and say, yeah, we can help you, we know the challenges and we're going to help stand you up and get this done?

Speaker B: There are some friendly banks. There are also some banks that say, I wish I could help you, but we can't. You know, we have partnered with even some innovative fintech platforms that then offer a variety of different options. In terms of going to finances for government contracts, you have to have your finances in place. So being new is very challenging. Not only because it's going to take 18 months potentially for you to get paid, but also they have to have proof that you're a uh, revenue making company. It's always dependent. But when you're fresh out of the military, you don't have business credit, definitely probably don't have corporate credit and maybe your finances weren't that great because you went in at 17 and didn't know how to manage money. That prevents some challenges for them.

Speaker A: Is there any entity or anybody that comes alongside and I don't say vouches, but like you, you got your SBA guarantee, I'm curious to know, is that like a veterans guarantee? Wouldn't that be great if. I don't know of any, but wouldn't that be interesting?

Speaker B: No, it had be. There's one bank actually in Oklahoma led by an army veteran herself, Joel Castilla, who has launched a digital bank called Roger that fundamentally is set for active duty military to build their finances and build their business credit, build their personal credit and provide support so that when they get out they, they're much more ready and able to secure larger commercial loans for whatever businesses. So some of that work is happening, but yeah, it's not across the board, unfortunately.

Speaker A: Well, that's okay. There's a source, right? That if there's one.

Speaker B: There's a source.

Speaker A: If there's one source and that becomes successful, then there becomes lots of sources that try to emulate. So rock. Rock on. So, so Roger, the uh, that's the name of the bank Roger, that's Roger.

Speaker B: Roger bank in Oklahoma. Jill Castilla is the CEO, uh, there.

Speaker A: Nice.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So we started to tinker a little bit about exiting. Right. That's a real challenge. Whether it's veteran, minority, uh, wbe, whatever the case is, those that have contracts. Right. That creates a real challenge on the way out. Right, right. And so I know Venture Vets is a lot of concentration on startups, but once you get started, the business owner veteran has to be thinking about the Diversification of revenue. I'm thinking of the business ownership journey. Uh, right. You get a contract, you're in the contract, you're doing it. And it's hard to diversify, right, because. Because you got awarded something that you now have to deliver on. Right. Any thoughts on what do we do about on the way out?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I laugh because these are conversations my husband Nathan and I have about our construction business too. Like we're not in any point, ready, right, to move on. But we're almost 10 or nine years going into our 10th year, and there are things that we know we have to set up for in five, 10 years when we want to exit too

Speaker A: young for five or 10 years. How could you possibly say that?

Speaker B: Well, we have lots of ideas, Ed.

Speaker A: Um, so, all right, I get you, you got, you got, you got other plans.

Speaker B: All right, we got plans. But not soon. Not soon. Like we're in a good spot. But it is, it's really hard. I think that's where from our perspective and even going through it ourselves, in the beginning we knew we wanted to diversify our revenue so that we weren't just dependent on one. But the problem that we came into was we did that very early and therefore we weren't focused and we didn't build enough of a pipeline in kind of one, I think area to then think about diversifying later. And so I think we spun our wheels in the beginning a little bit once we got our bearings, focused on one line, and then now we're looking at diversifying beyond that. But it is tough. And I think that to your point about the buying pool, so many veterans, even spouses, like, we want to work within the community, we want to help the others. Right? And so how do we find another veteran to hand it off to? That requires a lot of education on both the buyer and the seller side, which you guys are doing. But there more needs to be done.

Speaker A: I'll tell you what, I do want to circulate amongst the marketplace crowd, so to speak, if it's a veteran business and, uh, we got to think about confidentiality. But wouldn't it be interesting if on these marketplaces that there's a badge, right, that this is a veteran owned business, that it signals to all the other veterans that are looking at buying a business or getting into business or getting into a franchise that this is a, uh, veteran friendly business? That might be pretty interesting because now outside of the confidentiality, you're signaling that you as a incoming entrepreneur can thrive because other venture entrepreneur is thriving. Now.

Speaker B: Right, Right.

Speaker A: I guess I'm trying to figure out what's the best way that we can serve the people that have defended us. Right. I mean, what, what, what are the deficiencies in the marketplace that it's like we need this solved. Right. And we need it solved quickly. You, uh, got any thoughts on that? And I know it's kind of off topic and loaded question, but I just think that drawing some awareness to it is important.

Speaker B: I think it's just that the awareness piece. Over the last several years, there have been two in particular organizations that have been highlighting entrepreneurship through acquisition for veterans, which is great. The connectivity between those organizations and the Department of War and transitioning military is, you know, there's still a lot of space in between. And so the way we do that is even for venture vets like you attend events and you partner with others in the ecosystem to share and to spread awareness. Still to this day, so much of information gets spread by so simple word of mouth, and I use that term a little bit loosely of like, even Facebook groups of like, hey, you know, I am coming to Indy. I'm, um, moving back to Indianapolis. I don't know anyone. I'm looking for this. They might be trying to Google like veteran entrepreneurship through acquisition Indianapolis, but they're actually getting the information from the community here. And so I think highlighting the community and partnering with the venture vets community and other and like broader community work is the way to go. But it's not, you know, it's still going to be messy, but it's.

Speaker A: It's so interesting why it needs to be messy. Right. I mean, to me, it's like I may be looking at through rose glasses. I don't know, I just find it astounding that we can't bypass a lot of bureaucracy and a lot of the speed bumps in order to help, you know, you got every veteran and veteran spouse I've sacrificed for you. Why would you not do this for me?

Speaker B: Right, right. It's like, uh, well, I think that actually circles back to something that you and I have talked about and that's, you know, my work with Right. To start in the Office of Entrepreneurship and Innovation. You know, I think those conversations are continuously taking place and between different agency heads and throughout the state of how do we provide better connectivity between those resources and the military community here. So it's happening. It's just, you know, never as fast as what an entrepreneur you and me want it to be.

Speaker A: But I'm trying to figure out why doesn't it move Forward faster. There's capital, right? I get all kinds of emails and we're looking to do deals and on and on and on. What is slowing, slowing them up? Personally, I hope that there is a, a separate level. You know, you've got your SBA guarantee. I'd be curious to know whether or not there's a veteran guarantee, right, that you come alongside and say, look over and above the 75% that, that the federal government's going to do. Well, we as a organization or group also going to come along, but there's ties to it, right? You've got to be part of our community, you've got to have the education, you've got to have a mentor, and you've got to report all those things. I would just. Man, wouldn't that be awesome.

Speaker B: Sounds like something we should do.

Speaker A: Well, are you already doing it? That's the thing. It sounds to me like you guys are pretty good. Head start.

Speaker B: We're doing a lot of things. I think the official guarantee, besides our certifications, but that type of guarantee, I guess we haven't applied yet, but would love, um, to brainstorm that with you.

Speaker A: There are far more smarter people than me that have come up with this idea. I guarantee that. So somebody is tinkering with this, and I'm just curious to know who, who might be doing it, because to me, that would be a huge win to provide that kind of canopy over the deal or the business. I should say, when we're looking at value, right, we always bump into owner centric risk. As a veteran, right, as a result of your designation, you got the contract, you got all kinds of things that are working in your favor. And now all of a sudden, not only do you have the risk of the contract, but now you also have the risk of the owner. Are, uh, you guys doing anything special that is mitigating that risk?

Speaker B: I would say no. And I think especially when it comes to helping, especially folks that are looking to exit what we have found. And in the small business world, in the venture world, a lot of folks won't invest in small businesses or startups on the venture side if they don't have co founders, because it really is about the team. I do believe that. I believe that with any business, right? My husband and I. Don't ask me why, but it works well that we work together and we are able to do that. Not every husband and wife can do that, but I can't do this work without him, and he can't do it without me. Uh, from our skill set Perspective. Right. We bring very different skills to the table. And I would say the same for companies that are looking to exit that have a veteran founder. They have to have a strong team that could be able to carry the lift. A lot of that is overlooked even for really, really successful businesses that have been around, you know, 30 plus years, sometimes it's still about the one founder, and that's really tough. So we do talk a lot about, you know, co founders and then, you know, you get into the conversations around how AI might alleviate the need for co founders, which jury sell out. For me about that. At the end of the day, you have to have the right team in place and the right leaders, uh, surrounding you. And if that's the case, then I think you can mitigate some of that risk.

Speaker A: You know, I know, um, David Mann up at Firefox.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Are you getting into the EOS ecosystem?

Speaker B: And oh my gosh, yes, we have drunk the Kool Aid. So David man's amazing. He's been an advisor for us and a mentor, frankly, for me for many years. So we implement EOS in the construction business and in all of our programming. So both on the founder side, but also on the talent side, we have presentations on EOS and how to implement it through our implementer. So we are firm believers. Like, if it's not eos, it needs to be something similar. But EOS is our favorite. Like with anything, whether you're a startup or whether you're a small construction business, you have to have systems. You can't do anything without systems.

Speaker A: So what a layup. You're a veteran that's coming out, used to systems, and then you layer on an entire operating system that is a system. Right. Is there any anything we didn't talk about that you're like, man, I really wish we would have talked a little bit about this. Anything about Venture Vets or the work you're doing that that we can draw some awareness to.

Speaker B: I think the only thing I'll mention with Venture Vets is that we have two different accelerators launching this fall, one in construction tech and one that we're doing specifically for talent. So for those transitioning military that are looking to get placed either in some innovation type, specifically like innovation type jobs, or get placed in startups, that's our sweet spot. We're doing a new program. So if they want to be a great operator, which we know they already are based on their experience, but going into the startup world and small business entrepreneurship world is different. And so we're launching those Two in the fall. And we also have an event coming up July 14th. They're Marine Corps veterans, there's a state legislator, and there is a mayor that we're going to be having some fun for Comedy Night. So that's coming up July 14th here at the Helium Club in Indy.

Speaker A: All right. You'll get all that information over to our team so we can have that in the show Notes?

Speaker B: Yes, I will. Yes. Thank you.

Speaker A: Where can people find you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I do a lot on LinkedIn. So Courtney Zog at LinkedIn. We also have a Venture Vets page, of course, or the website. So it's theventurevets.com but yeah, reach out. We have a great team. Lots of stuff happening. We host events in person, but we also do a lot of our programming online, so we have lots of flexibility.

Speaker A: Well, truly, anything that we can do on our side to help further the cause, I mean, it's just a call or click away, just let us know.

Speaker B: Thanks, Ed. I look forward to brainstorming with you of how to. How to do all this stuff.

Speaker A: Right on. And seriously, I'm so grateful for the time and I pray that we're able to help a lot of the veterans that have given so much for all of us. So thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank your husband.

Speaker B: So grateful. I will. Thank you.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the defenders of business value. If today's episode helped you think differently about building or selling a business, follow the show so you don't miss what's next. And if you want to become a more informed, confident owner, the one who knows how to grow, protect, and eventually exit at maximum value, subscribe to my newsletter. The link is in the show notes. And if you're ready to talk about your next deal, connect with me on LinkedIn. So until next time, we'll see you soon.